1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 3 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 6 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 7 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: there's got to be nothing new here for you. But 8 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions. 9 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 2: Pod Cast it's a podcast that you're listening to. It's 10 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 2: it could happen here. It's that the show where things 11 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 2: fall apart and so that you put them back together again. 12 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,599 Speaker 2: And actually, okay, you know, I really should have checked 13 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: the calendar before I did it, before I tried to 14 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 2: do this introduction where I've referenced the thing that I'm 15 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 2: saying came out last week but might actually have come 16 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 2: out like no, no, no, okay, okay, I got it right. 17 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 2: I got it right. I should never have doubted myself. 18 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 2: Last week, we did an episode about inflation, and we 19 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 2: told maybe half that story and the part of it 20 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: that we didn't tell, you know, we got through the 21 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: most of the part about like you know what what 22 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 2: this sort of theory of inflation that the people a 23 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 2: strange matter to fello up. We got through what it was. 24 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 2: What we didn't really talk about was what happened next, 25 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 2: which is a very very interesting set of sort of 26 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 2: maneuvers that happened where this theory started spreading through a 27 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 2: bunch of very disparate academic circles and you know, sort 28 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 2: of like economic circles and different political circles that usually 29 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 2: don't have anything to do with each other. But we're all, 30 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: i don't know, taking taking things in very interesting directions, 31 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 2: and to talk about how how how this sort of 32 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 2: supply Shaine theory of inflation like spread through the world 33 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 2: and all of this very very interesting, somewhat bizarre stuff 34 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 2: that happened. Next, we once again have Steve Mann and 35 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 2: John Michael Cologone, who are co editors as Strange Matters. Yeah, 36 00:01:58,200 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 2: Steve jmc welcome back to the show. 37 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 3: Thanks for having us. 38 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad, glad, glad we could have YouTube back, 39 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 2: and glad we get to talk about the really really interesting, 40 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 2: somewhat strange things that happened next, which was, Yeah, a 41 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 2: lot of people started picking up your theories and starting 42 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 2: to work with them. Yeah, I was worrying if you 43 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 2: could talk a bit about I guess like how that 44 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 2: kind of first started and how people first started sort 45 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: of coming to you for stuff. 46 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, like last year. So last year when the first 47 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 4: of these pieces came out Notes toward e theory of inflation, 48 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 4: we got like a really good response in general from it, 49 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 4: and it was kind of provoking discussions between groups of 50 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 4: economists and like readers of econ stuff on Twitter and 51 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 4: stuff like that, who otherwise wouldn't have really been talking 52 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 4: to each other, but suddenly having a different theory of inflation, 53 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 4: one that was like a lot different than what sort 54 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 4: of like the people who thought it would be super 55 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 4: transitory or the people who thought it was like purely 56 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 4: a monetary phenomenon or something like that. Like having that 57 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 4: option sparked good conversations, and it eventually led to some 58 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 4: writers approaching us who are sort of inspired by those conversations, 59 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 4: and particularly a few of them really wanted to follow 60 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 4: up on like specific key like either points from the 61 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 4: paper or follow some of the implications as far as 62 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 4: they think they could take them. So one such paper. 63 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 4: Oh and by the way, just as a refresher the 64 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 4: original theory that is laid out in Part one of 65 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 4: this series that we're doing is essentially saying that inflation 66 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 4: has a tendency to propagate a long supply chains first 67 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 4: and then through supply chain networks secondarily. And so it's 68 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 4: it's saying it's essentially that that's that's how it propagates. 69 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 4: It starts in supply chains. Things like bottlenecks along production 70 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 4: processes have give the price setters, who are people at companies, 71 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 4: socially acceptable reasons to eventually if they need to raise prices. 72 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 4: And but they but that generally pricing managers refrain from 73 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 4: raising prices unless that us like every other lever they've pulled, 74 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 4: essentially has not worked. So like people took that theory 75 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 4: and wanted to follow up on it, and so one 76 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 4: author who did that was Alex Vaccolo who approached us 77 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 4: and he essentially wanted to do an updated version of 78 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 4: the pricing manager survey that we found really helpful in 79 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 4: writing those initial pieces. So in my piece No sort 80 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 4: of Theory of Inflation, I relied upon like a wealth 81 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 4: of pricing manager surveys that showed that where they asked 82 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 4: these pricing managers under what circumstances would you raise prices, 83 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 4: and they sort of went through each scenario of that 84 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 4: over the decades, starting in the thirties and going into 85 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 4: the nineties and two thousands. In order to not have 86 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 4: a replication crisis, like, we need more and more studies, right, 87 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 4: Like this is a that's phenomenon across social sciences and elsewhere. 88 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 4: So you want to have good replication studies. One way 89 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 4: to do that is to have an updated pricing manager 90 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 4: survey that talks to like sort of modern corporations in 91 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 4: the twenty twenties. So are they still concerned about some 92 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 4: of the same things? Are they not? Are there innovations 93 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 4: and pricing that we should know about? And so Alex Paccolo, 94 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 4: who's a financial journalist by trade, he went and interviewed 95 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 4: some managers at Walmart and other big companies and some 96 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 4: smaller ones and found that, like, broadly speaking, a lot 97 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 4: of the same issues are at play. So companies have 98 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 4: cost plus markeut pricing as kind of their bedrock, and 99 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 4: from there they develop some innovations such as like so 100 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 4: called dynamic pricing, where they have the like if you're 101 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 4: a larger company who knows that they are viewed as 102 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 4: a price leader, you have some leeway in responding to 103 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 4: sales forecasts and changing your pricing, like Walmart does what 104 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 4: they have like everyday low prices, that type of thing. 105 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 4: And if you're a grocery store and one of your 106 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 4: competitors is Walmart, Serve on the flip side, you might 107 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 4: start developing indexes of prices set by Walmart or like 108 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 4: one of the other big like behemoth chains, knowing how 109 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 4: important they are to the overall supply chain network and 110 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 4: knowing how important they are for the demand for groceries. 111 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 4: Like like if wherever Walmart goes, many people have no 112 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 4: choice but to follow them in terms of their pricing schedules. 113 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 4: And so that's another thing that is going on, Like 114 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 4: people are developing just entire price indices of like Walmart 115 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 4: or Costco or Sam's Club or who have you. 116 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was something that's I think interesting in terms 117 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: of like the the difference between the way that like 118 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: economists think about sort of price, the difference between and 119 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: how it's actually getting set, which is like a lot 120 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: of it, a lot of it. Very much seems to 121 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 2: be like if you are if you are like the 122 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: largest company in a market, like if you are like Walmart, right, 123 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 2: you have this incredible ability to sort of like like 124 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: you have this ability to like like force people force 125 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 2: your like downstream or like a guess upstream suppliers to 126 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 2: like sell it to you at low at lower prices 127 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 2: because you have this enormous sort of like you know, 128 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 2: amount of buying power that like, you know, if you're 129 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 2: like if you're like a smaller thing, you don't necessarily 130 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: like you know, like like the same company will charge 131 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 2: like another grocery store more for like the same thing 132 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 2: because Walmart, Walmart has an ability to sell it at 133 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 2: a lower price than if I'm remembering this right, I'm 134 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 2: getting I'm gonna im getting strange looks. 135 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, well it's it's it's important not to mix up 136 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 3: two separate things. One is Walmart's relationships to suppliers and 137 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 3: the other one is relationship to its competitors. Right, So 138 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 3: the supplier bit, you were totally right on the right track. 139 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 3: It's like, you know, like people who supply Walmart with 140 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 3: with products because Walmart is such a big customer. If 141 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 3: you get the Walmart contract and you're a small producer 142 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 3: or a medium sized producer, like you're set right because 143 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 3: like you know, then then you can basically just like 144 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 3: you know, they can even be your only customer in 145 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 3: many cases. But that comes at a cost, which is 146 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 3: that you sell at the price that will dictates, otherwise 147 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 3: they'll just tell you to fuck off basically. And you know, 148 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 3: it's not only price, it's also the quality. You have 149 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 3: to hit the standards. And oftentimes what these firms that 150 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 3: are like the big important firms, so called nuclear firms 151 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 3: in a supply chain do is that they set those 152 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,479 Speaker 3: standards like very rigidly, and you have to be certified 153 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 3: with them. So McDonald's does this for example, you know, 154 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 3: like all those poultry farmers or whatever who supply the 155 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 3: chickens for the chicken mc nuggets, they have to go 156 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 3: through this extremely rigid process in order to be able 157 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 3: to qualify to be a McDonald's certified supplier or whatever, 158 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 3: because that's how they keep the product standardized even though 159 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 3: they're not in house. And then the other thing that 160 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 3: you were alluding to, which is a vocalo's piece, is 161 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 3: the relationship to competitors. So obviously Walmart's able to keep 162 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 3: things cheap all the time, and they're famous every day 163 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 3: low prices because basically those they have economies of scale. 164 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 3: You know, there's this notion, I think common sense for 165 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 3: a lot of people, especially those who don't have a 166 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 3: lot of business experience, is that the more that you 167 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 3: make of something, the more expensive it's going to But 168 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 3: actually it's almost the exact opposite. Any firm that has survived, 169 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 3: like over a period of time being able to make 170 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 3: more and more of something has generally found ways of 171 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 3: making more and more of the same thing using fewer 172 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 3: inputs and less labor, like you know, and that's something 173 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 3: that happens through automation, but it's also something that happens 174 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 3: through administrative innovation and through and sometimes through less than 175 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 3: than nice things, right through through through you know, Amazon 176 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 3: warehouses where people aren't allowed to take bathroom breaks, or 177 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 3: through sort of like you know, coercive measures that they 178 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 3: can do because they've found a nice little spot in 179 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 3: the economy that lots of people are depending on them, 180 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 3: and they can dictate terms. But whatever it is, you know, 181 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 3: as firms get bigger, it actually gets cheaper to make 182 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 3: more of their kind of thing. So people in a 183 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 3: bodega can't match Walmart's prices for everything from like hamburgers 184 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 3: to detergent right, because for them it's more expensive to 185 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 3: produce or to acquire. So what they do instead knowing 186 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 3: this and they're able to survive, is that they do 187 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 3: Walmart price and then they do a markup over Walmart's price. 188 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 3: So in the same way that like by themselves, they 189 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 3: would do a markup over their costs, Walmart's costs are 190 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 3: lower and they do a markup, so they do a 191 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 3: percentage over Walmart's markup, and as long as it basically 192 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 3: is something that's doable in terms of cost, they do that, 193 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 3: which means that they're basically advertising themselves to customers as 194 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 3: the slightly more expensive but more local you know, more 195 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 3: you know, more reliable or easier to get to you 196 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 3: can just walk to the corner store or whatever, you know, 197 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 3: whatever conveniences. They're kind of like justifying themselves with to 198 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 3: the customer base. And in the cities this can be 199 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 3: enough to keep you know, small to medium sized you 200 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 3: know sort of retailers in business, although in the suburbs 201 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 3: the competition is basically just all other ali gobalistic firms 202 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 3: on Walmart's scale, like you know, Wegman's or in Florida 203 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 3: it will be something like Public's you know, and that 204 00:11:53,280 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 3: kind of thing so generally Vacola was discovering was I 205 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 3: want to just emphasize Steve's point about replication. Like, you know, 206 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 3: if a lot of the supply chain theory depends upon 207 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 3: a story about prices that most economists just don't believe in. 208 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 3: Economists believe that supply and demand are automatically adjusting based 209 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 3: on changing prices, and that those adjustments determine in turn, 210 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 3: how we spend and how we produce. You know, that's 211 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 3: that's supposedly how everything works. They believe in this thing 212 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 3: called the price mechanism. The supply chain theory depends upon 213 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 3: a story where the vast majority of prices in the 214 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 3: economy are a markup over costs or you know, beyond 215 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 3: that some kind of strategic decision being made in pursuit 216 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 3: of a certain strategy. But like, you know, if some 217 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 3: studies had verified that, but then other studies refuted it, 218 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 3: then you would have a situation like psychology, where you know, 219 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 3: the psychologists are always saying all human beings really have 220 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 3: a neck fetish. But then you know, because some study 221 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 3: of like some college students you know, said this, and 222 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 3: then six months later it'll be like, actually that failed 223 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 3: to replicate this. It turns out that human beings don't 224 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 3: have a neck fetish, you know. And I'm being rude 225 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 3: to psychology, but this is a real crisis that happened 226 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 3: there called a replication crisis. Now. Fred Lee that the 227 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 3: economists who kind of like started us along this track 228 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 3: in his famous book post KINSI and Price Theory, found 229 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 3: seventy one pricing studies, and they form an appendix called 230 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 3: Appendix B in his book, which ought to be legendary, 231 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 3: but it's not, because all this stuff is very obscure. 232 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 3: The seventy one studies from very different book length studies 233 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 3: from very different people with very different like political and 234 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 3: economic commitments. Some of them are business school literature, some 235 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 3: of them are empirical studies commissioned by states or by 236 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 3: corporations on how corporate management works. Some of them are 237 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 3: by like Marxist economists, some of them are by neoclassical 238 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 3: economists like and they all converge, no matter what the 239 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 3: biases of the people of the people involved, upon this 240 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 3: same kind of similar cost plus administered prices model. Vocolo 241 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 3: writing now in the present day, not in the period 242 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 3: that Lee was talking about, which is roughly from the 243 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 3: thirties to roughly the nineties, Like you know, he's talking 244 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 3: about the twenty twenties. He just went out and started 245 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 3: talking to pricing managers and capitalists and all this other stuff, 246 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 3: and lo and behold he found the exact same thing. 247 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 3: So the the evidence base, the empirical evidence base for 248 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 3: the underlying basis of the supply chain theory is very 249 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 3: very sound. The ball is in other people's court, in 250 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 3: mainstream economists court, who want to defend the supply and 251 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 3: demand bullshit and the price mechanism bullshit to prove us wrong, 252 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 3: because frankly, the weight of the evidence is so strong 253 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 3: that they're the ones who who have to prove their case, 254 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 3: not the other way around. You know that the what's 255 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 3: it called when you when you've got the you know, 256 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 3: the I think that the presumpture the burden of proof, 257 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 3: thank you, The burden of proof is on their side. 258 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 4: Yeah. 259 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 2: And so something also I think is really interesting from 260 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 2: that color pieces that like, you know, there is a 261 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: bit in there about firms that try to do this 262 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 2: sort of like like in real time reacting to supply 263 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 2: and demand stuff, and it's like uber and if you 264 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 2: look at Uber's like, okay, so uber has a couple 265 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 2: of things. One they don't have, like the thing that 266 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: they're like they don't really have a supply chain really 267 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 2: a B. They don't make any money. They never make money, 268 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 2: they will never make money. And the other the third 269 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 2: thing that's really interesting about is that like that kind 270 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 2: of pricing, Like you know, if if you have some 271 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 2: people who go in ideologically and or like we're gonna 272 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 2: build an algorithm to like try to have pricing respond 273 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 2: to demand or whatever it like, it fucking sucks and 274 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 2: everyone hates it because it means that like, you know, suddenly, 275 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 2: like when you actually need a thing, it's unbelievably expensive 276 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: and it pisses people off. Like most most people who 277 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: have to deal with actual like the normal things that 278 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 2: a business do don't do. And the only people who 279 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: do it are like the insane tech people who are 280 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: like like, I don't know, I almost want to call 281 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 2: it like intensely ideological and also assholes and also don't 282 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 2: make any money, which is just I don't know, it's 283 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 2: it's I think it's kind of a coincidence, but it 284 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 2: is just very funny to me that the people who 285 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 2: actually try to use the neoclassical like pricing theory. It 286 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 2: sucks and everyone hates them. 287 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, and uh, the Colo kind of summarizes like the 288 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 4: several different uh pricing procedures that he witnessed, and to 289 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 4: just say, like on both on both determining your company's 290 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 4: costs and determining what market markup you should have, so 291 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 4: the cost plus markup you need to you need to 292 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 4: figure out both of those pieces. It's anything but automatic. Yeah, 293 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 4: it's a very manual process. And even I would I 294 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 4: would go so far as to say, like Walmart has 295 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 4: teams of tech people, yes, but they're liaising heavily with 296 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 4: the finance department and sales and marketing to determine what 297 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 4: is an appropriate margin based on historical like in industry 298 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 4: and sub industry trends and like what is our historical 299 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 4: cost structure for each product down to the product level. 300 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 4: And they have so many different products that they might 301 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 4: actually say, well, because we're selling everything to everyone, maybe 302 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 4: some things can just be what are called lost leaders 303 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 4: and have a negative margin because they get people in 304 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 4: the store, and then those people are there and they 305 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 4: see other things which have higher markups, and then they 306 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 4: buy those and then overall they've made more of a 307 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 4: profit because they use something's a negative margin on them. 308 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 4: And it's like it's a really complex process. And even 309 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 4: if an algorithm is being developed by say uber to 310 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 4: like dynamically priced things up and down based upon events 311 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 4: like a baseball game or something they are going on 312 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 4: in a city so they can get more revenue, that 313 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 4: was still a people. It was a group of people 314 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 4: in a room in a very extremely manual process. Coding 315 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 4: is extremely manual still, and like lasing with like sales, marketing, 316 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 4: finance people all at once. 317 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 318 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 3: And the other thing is that it's like supply and 319 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 3: demand is a phrase that gets thrown around anytime that 320 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 3: there's any kind of interaction between like the amount of 321 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 3: people who want something and the amount of people and 322 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 3: the amount of stuff that there is, right, which is 323 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 3: a lot of different situations. But the specific supply demand 324 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 3: price theory that's at the core of neoclassical economics is 325 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 3: this price mechanism story whereby you know, companies basically all 326 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 3: make one thing. The price of that thing is not 327 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 3: something that is really under their control. It automatically fluctuates 328 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 3: based on demand, which I guess you can roughly measure 329 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 3: as sales and like the and in turn, like what 330 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 3: the price of that thing is determines how much they 331 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 3: produce and how much of it people buy, because people's 332 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 3: buying decisions are in some fixed functional way, and people's 333 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 3: production decisions, in some fixed functional way are tied to 334 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 3: that price. 335 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 5: Like if you. 336 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 3: Want to create an algorithm that includes as a consideration 337 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 3: doing a discount when you haven't yet sold all the 338 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 3: seats in an airplane in the hopes that you'll get 339 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 3: some last minute sales, which, by the way, statistically is 340 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 3: shown to not actually help that much those kinds of 341 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 3: last minute sales and discounts. I mean, I suppose in 342 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 3: a flight where there's a time limited thing, it might 343 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 3: work better. But for a typical product, it doesn't move 344 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 3: the dial very much in terms of sales, which is 345 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 3: why Walmart pursues an every day low price. Is strategy 346 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 3: just keeping prices down in general, so you don't do 347 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 3: sales and discounts which don't move the dial much. But 348 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 3: like you know, that's a strategic pricing decision that you've 349 00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 3: chosen to make because you think that it might move 350 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 3: the die in some way. You experiment it with it 351 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 3: and see if it works or whatever. That's not the 352 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 3: automatic lawlike functional relationship that is supposed to exist according 353 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 3: to neoclassical theory between supply demand and prices. People will 354 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 3: say that the algorithm is about supplying demand, but that's 355 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 3: not really how it works. That's it's it's not the 356 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 3: same thing as the theory, right. It's just a pricing 357 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 3: system that takes into account among many other variables and 358 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 3: usually not as the primary thing, whether or not. For example, 359 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 3: there is available available slack in the in the you know, 360 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 3: in what you're producing to be able to get some 361 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 3: last minute sales if you do a discount or something 362 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 3: like that, like or like Steve was saying, like, you know, 363 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 3: there's a there's a game today, so you can do 364 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 3: surge pricing because people are gonna you know that a 365 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 3: bunch of people are going to want to get in 366 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 3: the game. So you're basically just price gouging based on 367 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 3: this opportunistically based on this event that's happening or whatever, 368 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 3: like like, yeah, you can do that, and you can 369 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,199 Speaker 3: say that it's pricing that tries to take into account 370 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 3: supply and demand, but it's not the supply demand price 371 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 3: mechanism of neoclassical theory and also as McColo like you know, 372 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 3: finds out it, attempts to do this are very very 373 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 3: mixed in their success at best. 374 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 2: You know. 375 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 3: Basically, people who are trying to do it are like, yeah, 376 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 3: maybe it could work, and then they try it and 377 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 3: nine times out of ten it doesn't work very well, 378 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 3: so they go back to some variation on a cost 379 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 3: plus model, you know, or a price leadership model or 380 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 3: something like that. You know, the kinds of methods that 381 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 3: Lee discusses. 382 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the customer good will that you kind 383 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 4: of put at risk with these more dynamic pricing models 384 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 4: is like often a little too risky, Like even for 385 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 4: big companies like Uber, Like there's been a backlash against 386 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 4: Uber for doing that. 387 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 3: Absolutely the only reason they can maybe get away with 388 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 3: it has been because they have access to infinitive finance. 389 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 2: But yeah, how long is that gonna last? Yeah? Like, 390 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 2: and that's another thing that's interesting, Like, you know, this 391 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 2: is this is does some except like a different economic question, 392 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 2: but like you do at some point have to ask 393 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: the question, like to to what extent can you learn 394 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 2: things about the economy based on companies that don't have 395 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 2: a revenue model, or the revenue model is they will 396 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 2: continue to be headed piles of money by like the 397 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 2: same seven billionaires they've conned, and that's like a I 398 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 2: think there's an interesting interplay of how dependent you are 399 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 2: on actually making like actually having revenue be the source 400 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 2: of like the continuing existence of your company, and how 401 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 2: ideological you can be about running. 402 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 4: Do you have a game? 403 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 6: Yeah. 404 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 3: Well, it's actually very funny that you say this because 405 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 3: one of the people that Vocolo talks to is this 406 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 3: guy Cohen. I can't find his first name right now, 407 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 3: and I don't want to scroll up, but somebody who's 408 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 3: last name is Cohen is quote unquote more skeptical of 409 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 3: the of the dynamical pricing, and he says, I think 410 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 3: it's a sexy idea and probably it has a lot 411 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 3: of intellectually valuable pathways, except when it crashes into the 412 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 3: sensibility of the customer. He said, it could create a 413 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 3: universe of very inconsistent prices across categories in time, which 414 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 3: I don't think human beings are going to align to. 415 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 3: These dynamic models need common sense judgment attached to them, 416 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 3: which is not always necessarily available. Now, this is a 417 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 3: very diplomatic statement by somebody who's formerly of Sears Canada. 418 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 3: Now I find this very funny because there's a kind 419 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 3: of subtext here. Vocola doesn't get into it, but Sears 420 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 3: Canada obviously kind of related to Sears. In the nineties, 421 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 3: Sears had a CEO who was like this ultra libertarian, 422 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 3: you know. He basically believed that the problem with the 423 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,479 Speaker 3: free market is that it's not free enough, right at 424 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 3: the height of neoliberalism. So he's really pissed off about 425 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 3: the fact that inside the corporation there's no free market. 426 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 3: It's all a planned economy, you know, which is is true. 427 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 3: There's no there's no market exchanges in there, Like, it's 428 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 3: all allocations, Like, Okay, we have this goal, so we're 429 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 3: gonna allocate these workers to this place and blah blah 430 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 3: blah blah. You know, and and we're and and uh 431 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 3: and you know, anything that the company owns, they just 432 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 3: use it to pursue their goals. He wanted everything inside 433 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 3: the company to have a price, so that everything could 434 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 3: just be you know. But and this is kind of 435 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 3: like mad scientist experiment done on this like very old 436 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 3: American corporation. But somehow. I guess it was the nineties. 437 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 3: You know, people were coked up on this kind of thing. 438 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 3: They tried it, and it was a catastrophic failure that 439 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 3: actually generally seen as contributing to the end of Sears 440 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 3: as a as a major player in retail. And it's like, like, 441 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 3: so it shows So I think that the fact that 442 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 3: this person very diplomatically from Sears is like maybe this 443 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 3: doesn't work, you know, and that might be born of 444 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 3: more experienced than than than than not. 445 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 2: You know, yeah, okay, we have to go to an 446 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 2: adrak before we that. I want to tell one more 447 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 2: insane nineties Like, people in the nineties really really had 448 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 2: market brain in a way that's like difficult to understand now. 449 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 2: And you can even see this kind of through Obama, 450 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 2: Like they really have market brain. And like I think 451 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 2: the most market brain thing anyone ever did was the 452 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 2: the the I think it was the Army joint. She's 453 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 2: of staff brought in like a group of economists who 454 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 2: were you know, like you were doing the whole like okay, 455 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 2: we like, how can we make how can we use 456 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 2: the market to make the army run more efficient? And 457 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 2: the first polls that they put down on the table 458 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 2: is we're going to have each part each like like 459 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 2: each like section, like what's the type time declartim We're 460 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 2: gonna have each branch of the military bid for control 461 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 2: of who of who gets controlled the nuclear weapons. And 462 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 2: there's a bunch of just like five star generals sitting 463 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 2: at this table going like what the fuck are you 464 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 2: guys talking about? This kid about And that was the 465 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 2: end of like but that was like like peak absolute 466 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 2: peak nineties brain of like these these people thought you 467 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 2: could solve terrorism by like having futures markets on like 468 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 2: where when terrorist attacks would happen, Like it was these 469 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 2: people were wild. None of this stuff worked, unlike the 470 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 2: products and services that you're gonna you're gonna now hear 471 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 2: ads for and we're back from these fine products and services. 472 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 2: If you're if if if the thing you were doing 473 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 2: right now is you have your finger on the button. 474 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 2: We are about to message Sophie about the fact that 475 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 2: we have gold ads again, like please don't like please 476 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: leave Sophie alone. Oh my god, I think we we've 477 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 2: gotten we've gotten a little we've we've gotten sort of 478 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 2: into the weeds of I guess like the kind of 479 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 2: research stuff it's been produced, but I wanted to move on, 480 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 2: I think to some of the some of the other 481 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 2: like kinds of like I don't know, kinds of discourse 482 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,360 Speaker 2: and kinds of sort of work that's been produced out 483 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 2: of this. 484 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. So the Cola's piece, I think was was very, 485 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 3: very accomplished, and it adds to this proud tradition of 486 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 3: pricing surveys, like you've been saying. But the the piece 487 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 3: that I would say ended up having the biggest impact 488 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 3: in this sense that it really kind of started getting 489 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 3: followed up on by a lot of people and it 490 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 3: cut a lot of attention was Tim Demetzio's piece. So 491 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 3: a little about Tim. He's an economist based in Australia 492 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 3: and I should remember the name of his university, but 493 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 3: it was the University of something and it starts with 494 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 3: W and it's a very long name there you go, 495 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 3: University of Well. Yeah, and he's a political economist. He 496 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 3: does a lot of stuff pertaining to kind of like 497 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 3: international relations type stuff, but he also comes at economics 498 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 3: from a particular perspective. So we mentioned last time that 499 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 3: there's these the orthodoxy and economics. Is this one school 500 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 3: called the Neoclassicals. Who believe in the supply and demand 501 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 3: stuff and along with a whole bunch of other dogmas. 502 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 3: Then there's a bunch of dissident heterodox schools. And there's 503 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 3: a whole bunch of these, and one of them is 504 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 3: called the capital as Power school, which is named after 505 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 3: a book called Capitalist Power by these two professors called 506 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 3: Bickler and Nitsen, and it has a lot of things 507 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 3: to say about a lot of subjects. But so Capital's 508 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 3: Power is a book that says a lot of things 509 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 3: and a lot of different subjects, but at its core 510 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 3: is the idea that what makes the capitalist system tick 511 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 3: is the process of capitalization, and that that process of 512 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 3: capitalization is controlled by certain people, and their control over 513 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 3: that process is the basis of the entire economic system. 514 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 3: That's very heavy stuff. It tends not to have to 515 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 3: do with what we're going to be talking about, but 516 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 3: it informs the perspective that Demutzio comes from. Now, Demuzio 517 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 3: saw Steve's brilliant essay on the suplashing theory of inflation, 518 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 3: was very inspired by it because there are certain affinities 519 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 3: between the framework that we're coming from in this kind 520 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 3: of research and the capitalist power framework. They don't agree 521 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 3: one hundred percent on everything, but there's a lot of 522 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 3: common ground there. So he basically hopped aboard to say, well, 523 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 3: why don't we talk about interest rates? Because remember the 524 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 3: main upshot of Steve's of Fred Lee's administrative crisis theory, 525 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 3: and then and then by extension, Steve's theory about inflation 526 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 3: is that inflation is not about money. It's about prices. 527 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 3: And in order to understand inflation, you have to understand 528 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 3: why people set the prices that they do, and why 529 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 3: prices across the economy will go up at any given moment, 530 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 3: because it's people who set prices, not the market, not 531 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 3: the money supply, and not any of these other sort 532 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 3: of automatic, general macroeconomic things. It's a microeconomic decision made 533 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 3: by particular people within particular institutions, with the ability to 534 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 3: pull the lever on particular prices. Right, So the interest 535 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 3: rate is a price, you know, it's a very important 536 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 3: price too, because. 537 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 2: We should look, we should we should back off for 538 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 2: a second and explain what when when you say the 539 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 2: interest rate, you should explain what that is, because well, yeah, 540 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 2: that's under explained. 541 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 3: That's totally exactly where I was going because there's actually 542 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 3: many interest rates out there in the economy. When we 543 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 3: talk about the interest rate, what we tend to be 544 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 3: talking about is the interest rate that is set at 545 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 3: the central bank of the country that control of the 546 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 3: currency under discussion, right. That is basically an interest rate 547 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 3: that sets the price for credit for loans in the 548 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 3: rest of the economy. And it's basically you can see 549 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 3: it as a supply chain, even though it's not a 550 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 3: physical one, and it's basically the main cost for banks 551 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 3: that want to borrow, you know, and they then have 552 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 3: to set a markup over that cost as the price 553 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 3: for anyone who wants to borrow from them, which includes 554 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 3: other banks but also includes end consumers and firms. So 555 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 3: that's basically I mean, I'm oversimplifying and seeing probably a 556 00:30:54,920 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 3: more nuanced version of this, but that's that's the basics. 557 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, Banks, just like any company, need to determine both 558 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 4: their cost structure to the extent that they are able 559 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 4: to themselves, and their markup. And the markup is they 560 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 4: like banks, have costs just like anyone. One of their 561 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 4: principal costs is their rate of interest that they pay 562 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 4: on deposits of their customers in order to get them 563 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 4: to get new customers in Like, that's one of their 564 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 4: main services that they provide is checking checking accounts and 565 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 4: savings accounts, and like, so, how much interest are you 566 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 4: is a bank willing to set on its savings account 567 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 4: is like an important decision that's like part of its 568 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 4: cost structure. But where people if the Federal Reserve were 569 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 4: to raise its federal it's a the federal funds rate, 570 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 4: it's a principal policy rate up to what they have 571 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 4: now five and a half percent or so, when it 572 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 4: was less than one percent only a year ago, in 573 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 4: order to compete with all of the other products which 574 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 4: are based upon this so called risk free rate of 575 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 4: return that the central bank offers that that governments used 576 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 4: to like set the rate of things like treasury treasury 577 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,719 Speaker 4: bills and stuff like. Eventually, if you're a bank, you 578 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 4: have to start charging higher and higher interest rates. Sorry, 579 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 4: you have to start offering higher and higher interest rates 580 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 4: on your savings accounts. And likewise you need to, like 581 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 4: you need to start charging higher interest rates on the 582 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 4: products that are your actual money makers, like mortgages and 583 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 4: home equity, lines of credit and that sort of thing. 584 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 4: And so like the cost so the cost structure of 585 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 4: a bank will shift as the Federal Reserve is changing 586 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 4: its policy rate, and so too will its margin over 587 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 4: time as it competes with other banks, for like a 588 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 4: narrowing pool of qualified mortgage applicants, and also for people 589 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 4: who are willing to shop around for where to keep 590 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 4: their deposits in a way that they previously they weren't 591 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 4: because there was no sort of differential in interest rates 592 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 4: at all. It was just being held steady. 593 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, So the key thing to understand, and by 594 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 3: the way, up to now, Steve and I have been 595 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 3: describing what we regard as the real world. Like everything 596 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 3: that we've just described, we can see it in action, 597 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 3: like in the world right Like if the Fed raises 598 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 3: this interest rate effectively, what that means is that this 599 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 3: whole supply chain of people lending to other people, who 600 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 3: lend to other people, who lent to other people, the 601 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 3: cost of lending has essentially increased, which will eventually lead 602 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 3: to a rise in the cost and the cost of 603 00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 3: lending to people downstream until for end consumers, which basically 604 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,479 Speaker 3: like firms and households trying to get a loan from 605 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 3: the bank, those loans are going to be more expensive, 606 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 3: and conversely, if the Fed's interest rate goes down, those 607 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 3: prices will tend to go down as well, if you like. 608 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 4: Crucially, none of it is just automatic. 609 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 3: That's Y's absolutely true. 610 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 4: There's even just just because it's a bank doesn't mean 611 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 4: it's any different than the story that Facola was laying 612 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 4: out for retailers. 613 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 3: Mm hmm, that's exactly right. The Fed's rate is a 614 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 3: very important rate because it's basically the first, the first 615 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 3: one in this chain, and it's a cost for pretty 616 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 3: much everybody who's doing business and dollars. But that doesn't 617 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 3: mean that it in some simple way just controls everything else. 618 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 3: You can hope that it controls if you're if you're 619 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 3: the central banker. But of course all these firms are 620 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 3: making their own decisions based on their own reasons, so 621 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 3: you know, they can make all sorts of decisions based 622 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 3: on their priorities and based on like like all sorts 623 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 3: of things. Now, by the way, if you want the 624 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 3: more detailed version of this story that actually talks about 625 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 3: the different agents at each step of this process in 626 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 3: much more detail, you should check out Perry Merling's work 627 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,839 Speaker 3: on this, and there's even online online lectures that kind 628 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 3: of get into the nitty gritty which I have absorbed 629 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 3: and then since completely forgotten the details of, so I 630 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 3: would need to watch them again to actually be able. 631 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 6: To name the names. 632 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 3: But the point is that so far, so real right now, 633 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 3: here's where things get a little bs. Remember that the 634 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 3: mainstream theories of inflation are all basically descended in their DNA, 635 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 3: even though they've been moving further and further away from 636 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 3: it from the old school quantity theory of money, the 637 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 3: idea that the amount of money in the economy basically 638 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 3: determines the price level. More money that there is circulating, 639 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 3: the less that money is worth because there's too much 640 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:57,719 Speaker 3: of it, so the price of it goes down, and 641 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 3: the price of money basically determines like how much your 642 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 3: money is able to buy. Now, people have been moving 643 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 3: away from that towards theories that get more realistic but 644 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 3: still retain the basic structure where the money supply is 645 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 3: the main thing that matters, and they'll say, for example, 646 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 3: that it's the amount of money circulating in people's pockets 647 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 3: relative to the amount of goods being produced, such that 648 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 3: if too much money is chasing too few goods, like 649 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 3: there isn't enough supply to meet the demand, and that 650 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 3: causes something, although people disagree on what, that causes prices 651 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,320 Speaker 3: to be bid upwards, and that's called the demand poll theory. 652 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 3: It's the dominant theory that most economists, classical mainstream economists 653 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 3: that you talk to today will will will pedal to you. 654 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,720 Speaker 3: The ones who are not orthodox monitorists, they still believe 655 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 3: in this, which means that they still think that you 656 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 3: have to when there's an inflationary event, you have to 657 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 3: attack the money supply. Now from them, from their point 658 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 3: of view, it doesn't have to do with the absolute 659 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 3: amount of money circulating. It has to do with the 660 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,760 Speaker 3: amount of money in people's pockets relative to the amount 661 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,279 Speaker 3: of stuff that can be bought. So, if there's too 662 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 3: much money in people's pockets, how do people use their money? 663 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,240 Speaker 3: They spend it on goods and services that are produced 664 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 3: by firms. So if you reduce that amount of money, 665 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 3: that basically the only way that you can do it 666 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 3: is by putting people out of work, right, you know, 667 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 3: because then they don't get the wages which they would 668 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 3: have spent on stuff that you know, the factor is 669 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 3: in Walmart and everything else. The agriculture and whatever, all 670 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 3: the stuff that gets made, the goods and services. Now 671 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 3: they think that if you raise the interest rate, it 672 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 3: makes the cost of finance more expensive. Some firms are 673 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 3: depending on finance, so if that cost increases for them, 674 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 3: they're going to go under. And when they go under, 675 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 3: people get unemployed. When people get unemployed, they have less 676 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,879 Speaker 3: money in their pockets, which means that they're spending less, 677 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 3: which means that some other firms go out of business, 678 00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 3: and then those people go unemployed. Now, the of this 679 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 3: is like the crash of two thousand and eight or 680 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 3: nineteen twenty nine, where suddenly a whole bunch of people 681 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 3: are unemployed and a whole bunch of companies are empty. 682 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 3: They don't want to go all the way with that, 683 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 3: but they want to kind of get part of the 684 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 3: way to that. They want to put the squeeze on 685 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 3: the economy and get some companies put out of business 686 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 3: and some people unemployed on the dole so that people 687 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 3: don't have money in their pockets, so that the supposed 688 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 3: pressure of too many people spending money on goods that 689 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 3: are not being produced enough to meet that demand, the 690 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 3: demand pressure goes down, so therefore it equilibrates and inflation prices. 691 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 3: Inflation ceases because prices go down too, because the idea 692 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:47,760 Speaker 3: is that there's a law like relationship between demand and prices, 693 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 3: souch that if demand goes down, the price will go down. 694 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 3: The actual explanation for this is will vary depending on 695 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 3: the thing. They basically accept it as a religious orthodoxy 696 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 3: and then different economists justified in different ways. But that 697 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 3: that's why they're trying to raise interest rates so that 698 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 3: basically people get thrown out of work and that'll cause 699 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 3: prices magically to go down. Now, as we discussed, the 700 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 3: actual cause of the inflation was an exogenous shock based 701 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 3: on like the chip shortage, the labor shortage, and key 702 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 3: things like agriculture, the container shortage and the war in 703 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:26,919 Speaker 3: Ukraine causing increases in grain prices that have caused cost increases. 704 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,239 Speaker 3: That firms tried to hold off price increases as long 705 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 3: as they could, but then they couldn't, and then they 706 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 3: traveled down the supply chain and a whole bunch of 707 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 3: prices across the economy went up. So we know that 708 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 3: because we have looked at the news stories that you 709 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 3: know and talk to people at these different companies. We 710 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,400 Speaker 3: I don't mean strange matters. I mean, like you know, 711 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 3: journalists or whatever, and like, you know, that's what they say. 712 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 3: And yet nevertheless, they're trying to make the interest rates 713 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 3: go up to throw people out of work and partially 714 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 3: induce a recession in the hopes that that will drive 715 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 3: is down. 716 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 4: But they can't even get that right, that's right. 717 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,720 Speaker 3: They haven't actually haven't. 718 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 4: Been able to get unemployment up either, So it's it 719 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 4: doesn't work in either direction exactly. 720 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:15,280 Speaker 3: Well, and what's really funny is that Demucio basically says, Okay, 721 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 3: why do people believe this? They believe it for a 722 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 3: lot of reasons, but they think that it worked in 723 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 3: the seventies. That's the myth. Right. You asked Larry Summers, 724 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,760 Speaker 3: why do you think this ship will work? And Larry 725 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 3: Summers will say, well, you might not like it. And 726 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 3: I think he actually said things like this, like a 727 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 3: couple of weeks ago. You might not like it, but 728 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 3: this is how we got out of the crisis of 729 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,839 Speaker 3: the seventies. If we hadn't done the vulgar shock, which 730 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 3: is basically the same thing they raised interest rates through 731 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 3: up the yazoo, you know, like like we and hadn't 732 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 3: induced that unemployment or whatever, prices would never have come down. 733 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 3: But you see, Demucio did something that you're not supposed 734 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 3: to do, which is that he actually checked out on 735 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 3: the relationship between between interest rates and prices. And what 736 00:40:54,760 --> 00:41:00,840 Speaker 3: he found was that basically, there's either that I believe 737 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,320 Speaker 3: that I explained his essay is that there's a strong 738 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 3: version of his argument and there's a weak version. The 739 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 3: week version is definitely true. The strong version is speculative. 740 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,319 Speaker 3: So he charted it and he found that there is 741 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 3: absolutely no inverse relationship between interest rates and prices. They 742 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,919 Speaker 3: raise interest rates, they raise interest rates, the prices keep 743 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 3: going up. Then they're not coming down, right, and the 744 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 3: prices don't start to go down until oil because remember 745 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,359 Speaker 3: the oil shock caused by the war in the Middle 746 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 3: East between Israel and Weal and and Egypt and a 747 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 3: whole bunch of other places caused opek to raise their 748 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 3: prices in order. 749 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I'm gonna 750 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 2: point in a thing, which is that the actual story 751 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 2: behind that is slightly more complicated, which is that, like, okay, 752 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 2: so to be completely one hundred percent accurst about this, 753 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 2: OPIK had a meeting where they decided to raise prices, 754 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,719 Speaker 2: and then the war started and then like like two 755 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 2: weeks afterwards, and then they kind of ta their explanation 756 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 2: on to the back of the price increase state already 757 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,759 Speaker 2: decided on. Oh okay, but yeah, so this this, this 758 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 2: is the thing that like, I don't know there there 759 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 2: there was a there was an oil historian who went 760 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,359 Speaker 2: back and like spent a bunch of time looking through 761 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 2: the records of OPEC and shit and trying to figure 762 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 2: out what the actual sequence of events was. But it 763 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 2: it is true that like one of the things behind 764 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:27,480 Speaker 2: keeping OPEK together so that it could increase the price 765 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:31,359 Speaker 2: of oil was like the like what was their sort 766 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 2: of solidarity and they faced the opposition of the war. 767 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,279 Speaker 2: But also it's slightly more complicated than that, And I 768 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 2: want to I want to I want to put that 769 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 2: on the record, just because the oil knowers will get 770 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,879 Speaker 2: mad at us. We Yeah, yeah, so that that that's 771 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 2: the version of it that like like ninety nine percent 772 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:51,240 Speaker 2: of accounts will give you. It's just slightly not quite 773 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 2: exactly what was happening. 774 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:54,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I gotta wrote that book. 775 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was God, I remember what book 776 00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 2: I think it was in. I think was in Carbon Democracy, 777 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 2: maybe like eighty percent. Sure, Sorry, I read like four 778 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,719 Speaker 2: books about oil and coal in like incredibly rapid succession, 779 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 2: like several years ago, and sometimes I have trouble remembering 780 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,760 Speaker 2: exactly which one which thing is from. But yeah, although 781 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,880 Speaker 2: I want to say sorry, I guess I want to 782 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:21,799 Speaker 2: say one other kind of interesting thing about that that 783 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 2: makes specifically trying to use the interest rates arguments about 784 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 2: like I think it is it is pretty clear that 785 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,839 Speaker 2: raising the interest rates directly would like did not immediately 786 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,359 Speaker 2: did wasn't the thing that brought down prices. I think 787 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 2: there's like an interesting there's like a weird thing going 788 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 2: on there too, because the like almost like when when 789 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:44,920 Speaker 2: economists tend to look at this, what they tend to 790 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 2: look at what the interest rate rises, was what was 791 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,200 Speaker 2: happening to the US economy and the other The other 792 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 2: thing that the vocal shock did was it raised the 793 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 2: interest rates on it raised it raised the interest rates 794 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 2: in all of these audjustable rate loans that like all 795 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,440 Speaker 2: of these countries like all over the world had and 796 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 2: those economies got fucking obliterated. And that actually I think, 797 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 2: I think actually that there is an argument that like 798 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 2: my my argument would be, I think it kind of 799 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 2: probably prevented prices maybe from going up more, But it 800 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 2: did that because it prevented any more opex from forming 801 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 2: and just like absolutely annihilated any kind of political movement 802 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 2: to like have pricing be set by like raw material 803 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 2: producers rather than by like countries that do production. And 804 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 2: this is a kind of like separate thing, but like 805 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,799 Speaker 2: this is I think, I think the moral of my 806 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 2: story with this before we get back to sort of 807 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:40,319 Speaker 2: like the I don't know the the other arguments about 808 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,680 Speaker 2: this is that like that moment was such a fucking 809 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,319 Speaker 2: shit show. There were so many things going on, It's 810 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,719 Speaker 2: so complicated. It is absolutely nuts to try to base 811 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 2: literally your entire theory about how you stop inflation by 812 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:57,440 Speaker 2: raising interest rates on one event in like probably the 813 00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,759 Speaker 2: most complicated economic crisis, and it like we've ever had. 814 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 2: And yeah, because like it it did, like the Vulcar 815 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 2: shock did a lot of things that weren't what Volcar 816 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 2: were not nottarily not what Vocal were trying to do, 817 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 2: But it did a lot of things that aren't what 818 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,240 Speaker 2: economists talk about when they talk about what the Volcan 819 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,440 Speaker 2: shock did, like it had all of these incredibly like 820 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,759 Speaker 2: powerful political ramifications that they just don't put in the 821 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,239 Speaker 2: equations because it doesn't feel like how how do how 822 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:34,239 Speaker 2: do you mathematically model like the collapse of the like 823 00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,239 Speaker 2: like the collapse of the non online movement and like 824 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,799 Speaker 2: the third world movement, Like you can't, right, and so 825 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 2: they just sort of like wave their hands and pretend 826 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,920 Speaker 2: that it was just like directly it caused more unemployment, 827 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:46,439 Speaker 2: the unemployment prout inflation rate doown. 828 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting to think of the global effects of 829 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:55,920 Speaker 4: the Vulcar's shock. It's like you have countries who are 830 00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 4: dependent upon USD finance suddenly are facing much stronger dollar. 831 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,399 Speaker 4: So if they didn't already have dollars, that's a huge problem. 832 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,799 Speaker 2: Yeah and again yeah and again also just like like 833 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,600 Speaker 2: just literally the interest rates on their loans like increased 834 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 2: by like twenty percent, and that's like, you know, like 835 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,000 Speaker 2: you're it doesn't really matter what your economy is, you can't, 836 00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,359 Speaker 2: I don't know, it's it's unbelievably difficult to survive them 837 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:19,640 Speaker 2: like that. 838 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:24,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, on the four x dimension and just on regular 839 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,719 Speaker 4: lending terms in dollar lending anyway, it's going to get 840 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:32,440 Speaker 4: way tougher. Yeah, even domestically, like to de Mitiu, superimposes 841 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,000 Speaker 4: the oil price onto the inflation and like the the 842 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,360 Speaker 4: inflationary crises of the seventies and early eighties, it was 843 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,600 Speaker 4: a double it was a double victim, if you remember. 844 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,239 Speaker 4: And so like the first time the FED chairman who 845 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 4: proceeded Paul Voker was blamed for not raising interest rates 846 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,799 Speaker 4: during an inflationary crisis because of the emerging theory, said 847 00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,680 Speaker 4: that maybe that would be a good idea, and so 848 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,759 Speaker 4: like the monitorists had like their one moment after that 849 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:07,240 Speaker 4: to say, like they where they became more than simply 850 00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,800 Speaker 4: an academic movement and became like briefly hegemonic with the 851 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 4: vulgar interest rate arise that happened to like set in 852 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 4: nineteen seventy five or so, when the oil price was 853 00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:25,560 Speaker 4: about fifteen dollars per barrel. That's when inflation and the 854 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,279 Speaker 4: oil price start to move closely in conjunction with each other, 855 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:34,720 Speaker 4: going into nineteen eighty, which is also when the interest 856 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:39,879 Speaker 4: rates are being raised more like give or take nine 857 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:45,080 Speaker 4: to eighteen months or so, and the economic historians, the 858 00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:50,360 Speaker 4: neoclassical economic historians, will forget about the supply chain, pressures 859 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,000 Speaker 4: like the oil price, which has nothing to do with 860 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:57,040 Speaker 4: the FED, and like that happened in this inflationary when 861 00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,640 Speaker 4: oil prices were up to like one ten. During our 862 00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:05,600 Speaker 4: current inflationary crisis, this exact debate debate was taking place again. 863 00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, which like where it's like, I. 864 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 4: Mean there's like all of the prices that the FED 865 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,400 Speaker 4: has no control over. It's like, well, if you ignore 866 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,000 Speaker 4: those ones, then actually, our theory is like kind of 867 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:17,799 Speaker 4: getting close to being right. 868 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,759 Speaker 3: And the worst part, the worst part is that the 869 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:28,759 Speaker 3: interest rate correlates positively with prices. This is so like 870 00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,960 Speaker 3: so like so like the interest rate when it's high, 871 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:38,600 Speaker 3: theory expects that prices will be low. But actually and 872 00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:40,719 Speaker 3: and and and like even if you adjust for like 873 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,719 Speaker 3: a delay where maybe like the prices get low afterwards, 874 00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:48,120 Speaker 3: like no, that's not what happens. It's like the interest 875 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,279 Speaker 3: rate goes up and prices go up, to prices go 876 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:54,440 Speaker 3: down and the interest rate goes. 877 00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,480 Speaker 4: You know, like like like it's like yeah and like 878 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:02,640 Speaker 4: and Demucio is like it hurt when he eventually he 879 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,759 Speaker 4: super imposes oil price, Fed funds, thoral funds, rate, and 880 00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,240 Speaker 4: inflation all in one chart. It's just like this epic 881 00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,680 Speaker 4: wave of all three going up at once, yeah, like 882 00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:15,080 Speaker 4: almost in lockstep. And then oil goes back down, and 883 00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,320 Speaker 4: then interest rates go back down, and then prices go 884 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:18,160 Speaker 4: back down. 885 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,000 Speaker 3: Yeah I can't. I think prices first before interest rate. 886 00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:26,440 Speaker 4: Let me see, oh yeah, yeah, like inflation cress like yeah, 887 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:31,480 Speaker 4: somewhat concurrently with the federal funds, and then the UH 888 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,040 Speaker 4: oil price eventually falls like like shortly thereafter. 889 00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then and this this just gives you a disaster, 890 00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,040 Speaker 2: right because you like, okay, so the you will get 891 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,360 Speaker 2: neoclassical economists who are like, oh my god, oh no, 892 00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,800 Speaker 2: all these idiots are saying that increasing the increasing the 893 00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 2: interest rate actually increases prices. It's not what happening. It's 894 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,840 Speaker 2: like you get into this mess. You have to figure 895 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,839 Speaker 2: out the new classical explanation, right, is that like, okay, well, 896 00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:00,000 Speaker 2: the reason it looks like the fund rate increasing increase 897 00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,400 Speaker 2: prices is because you do that in response to the 898 00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,200 Speaker 2: inflation happening. Right, But like you can also just very 899 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,520 Speaker 2: easily look at this as like a panic index basically 900 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,960 Speaker 2: like where you know, it's like okay, well, prices go up, 901 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,680 Speaker 2: and then the Fed panics, and so they they raise 902 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,319 Speaker 2: their it doesn't and you know it like it's it's 903 00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,719 Speaker 2: this is one of those things where like the neoclassical 904 00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:25,880 Speaker 2: economists have invented a mechanism that like allows them to 905 00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,480 Speaker 2: explain their own actions in a way that's plausible enough 906 00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,759 Speaker 2: that they can call anyone that they've they've gotten a 907 00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:33,759 Speaker 2: veegibility that could say anyone who says they're wrong is 908 00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:40,120 Speaker 2: just like nuts, right, right, And also it's it's it's 909 00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,000 Speaker 2: entirely possible that not only are they not right, they're 910 00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:44,760 Speaker 2: literally perfectly exactly wrong. 911 00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:51,360 Speaker 7: Yeah, and that yeah, they tried out the like the 912 00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:56,320 Speaker 7: the econometric jargon long and variable lags, when people say, 913 00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,640 Speaker 7: when our interest rate's gonna cause unemployments arise, when are 914 00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,200 Speaker 7: interest it's going to cut down on inflation by themselves 915 00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,640 Speaker 7: and not some other supply chain phenomenon, And they say, like, well, 916 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,879 Speaker 7: the monetary transmission mechanism has long and variable lags, which 917 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:10,920 Speaker 7: means that like ninety eighteen months from now, it will 918 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,080 Speaker 7: settle down and then we'll know it's from interest rates. 919 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:18,360 Speaker 3: Trust us, right, And even their purported explanations are demonstrably false. 920 00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 3: So theoretically, the mechanism by which this happens is that 921 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,040 Speaker 3: the monetary that the money supply will go down. 922 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:25,719 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, M. 923 00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,520 Speaker 3: Two is our best estimate for the monetary for the 924 00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,600 Speaker 3: money supply, and it's not even a perfect one. You know, 925 00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,839 Speaker 3: interest rates go up, interest rates go down. M two 926 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,080 Speaker 3: keeps going up. And this is over the course of 927 00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:41,680 Speaker 3: like from the seventies to the nineties, you know, Like, yes, 928 00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:43,040 Speaker 3: another graph of the monsios. 929 00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:47,160 Speaker 4: That's another important point that like the money, it doesn't 930 00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,319 Speaker 4: even get the money supply down. 931 00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,879 Speaker 3: Yeah. So, like it's quite questionable whether this interest rate 932 00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:58,400 Speaker 3: adjustment thing even works at all on its own terms, 933 00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,880 Speaker 3: because all the and says that there's at least and 934 00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:03,480 Speaker 3: this is what I mean by the weak version of 935 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,319 Speaker 3: Dic's argument that all the evidence shows that there's at 936 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,439 Speaker 3: least no relationship between interest rates and the price level. 937 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,960 Speaker 3: That there is like no relationship whatsoever. It basically just 938 00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:15,879 Speaker 3: is useless for controlling prices one way or the other. 939 00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:21,040 Speaker 3: The uh Now, the strong version of argument is he 940 00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,960 Speaker 3: takes the he takes the the the fact that interest 941 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,440 Speaker 3: rates track prices very seriously, and he's like, well, what 942 00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:33,680 Speaker 3: if making finance more expensive actually raises business costs? And 943 00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,040 Speaker 3: businesses choose to respond to it by raising their prices. 944 00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,719 Speaker 3: You know, what if you what if you actually, by 945 00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,560 Speaker 3: raising the interest rate, are contributing to inflation. Now, this 946 00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:46,799 Speaker 3: is this is kind of how we framed the whole 947 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:51,040 Speaker 3: article in our title editors make titles, not not not 948 00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,920 Speaker 3: not writers do interest rate hikes worsen inflation? And I 949 00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:56,560 Speaker 3: remember showing this to some of my friends who were 950 00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,600 Speaker 3: financed bros. And they were like, what what are you 951 00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,800 Speaker 3: talking about? This is crazy idea, But like it makes 952 00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:04,439 Speaker 3: a lot of sense because if you look at things 953 00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,880 Speaker 3: as a supply chain, at the very least, rising financially 954 00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,759 Speaker 3: rising cost of loans would be a higher cost for 955 00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,680 Speaker 3: at least some businesses. Theoretically they could respond to that 956 00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,880 Speaker 3: by raising their prices. Now, in actual fact, it probably 957 00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,880 Speaker 3: at least my solo opinion is this is a small effect. 958 00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,279 Speaker 3: If it exists at all, it's much more plausible that 959 00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:24,840 Speaker 3: there is simply no relationship. 960 00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the general price yeah, and that and that 961 00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,400 Speaker 2: and that, Like the fact that they're correlated is just 962 00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,239 Speaker 2: it's just a panic index on the on the on 963 00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,160 Speaker 2: the on behalf of the fed that they just get 964 00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,759 Speaker 2: scared and do this thing and it doesn't it has 965 00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:40,680 Speaker 2: no effect. But like you know they've got to press 966 00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:41,480 Speaker 2: the panic button. 967 00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I'm for a variety of reasons. I 968 00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:51,840 Speaker 4: think I'm a weak form demusiist on this point. I think, like, like, 969 00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:56,640 Speaker 4: especially these days, there's so many other like a relatively 970 00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:02,080 Speaker 4: small percentage of commercial and bussiness credit is variable right 971 00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:04,919 Speaker 4: to begin with. These days, more of it is fixed rate, 972 00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:09,200 Speaker 4: and like especially for more well certainly for mortgages, like 973 00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:13,840 Speaker 4: it's it's like eighty percent plus approaching eighty five percent 974 00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,520 Speaker 4: even fixed rate, which will not be affected. And then 975 00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,640 Speaker 4: businesses have other so many other means of liquidity other 976 00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:26,880 Speaker 4: than loans these days, particularly the like medium large scale businesses, 977 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,680 Speaker 4: like the you know, you can go to the capital markets, 978 00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,760 Speaker 4: private equity or the stock market and get the funding 979 00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:38,040 Speaker 4: you need. That I'm in ways that don't don't depend 980 00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:41,359 Speaker 4: upon what the federal funds rate is doing or only 981 00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,920 Speaker 4: weekly depend upon it. So it's just like there's so 982 00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:48,080 Speaker 4: many other liquidity sources, especially like in the last thirty 983 00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,319 Speaker 4: years or so, like well since since the Vulcar shock. 984 00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,319 Speaker 4: Basically they've like all of these like private equity and 985 00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,120 Speaker 4: other capital markets methods for liquid you have opened up 986 00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,279 Speaker 4: and a good deal of the debt. A good deal 987 00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,600 Speaker 4: more of the debt as a percentage of total debt 988 00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:06,719 Speaker 4: is fixed rate, so like on that basis, and like 989 00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:11,000 Speaker 4: all right, well maybe it doesn't maybe it doesn't increase prices, 990 00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,440 Speaker 4: but there is at the very least, it's like non correlated. 991 00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:18,439 Speaker 3: This caught a lot of people's attention, like ONCET, once 992 00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:20,560 Speaker 3: you put this paper out there, this is one of 993 00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:24,719 Speaker 3: our most successful essays because it got picked up by 994 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:28,960 Speaker 3: a bunch of folks, I mean, Investipedia cited it as 995 00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,279 Speaker 3: a source. Economy called this a blog and not a magazine, 996 00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,279 Speaker 3: you know, like like it ended up being taken up 997 00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:38,880 Speaker 3: by another capital as Power influenced economists Blair Fix, who 998 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:43,000 Speaker 3: found yet more empirical evidence that there is no relationship 999 00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:47,439 Speaker 3: whatsoever between interest rates and like the general price level, 1000 00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,000 Speaker 3: you know, and to the extent that there is, it's 1001 00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,279 Speaker 3: only because you induce a recession, you know that that 1002 00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:56,439 Speaker 3: that puts people out of work, in which case you've 1003 00:55:56,600 --> 00:56:00,040 Speaker 3: basically you know, you've in order to deal with a 1004 00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:02,520 Speaker 3: paper cut, you've cut off your hand, right and even 1005 00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,399 Speaker 3: then like they can't they can't reliably get unemployment up, 1006 00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,200 Speaker 3: you know, by raising rates. So like what like what 1007 00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,400 Speaker 3: use is that even if you accept that mechanism. So 1008 00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,320 Speaker 3: they found more evidence and then got even more attention. 1009 00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,879 Speaker 3: Cory Doctoro, the science fiction writer and futurist and kind 1010 00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:23,120 Speaker 3: of left wing all around public intellectual, he found both 1011 00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:26,160 Speaker 3: Demusia's study and Blair Fix's study and was like really 1012 00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:29,000 Speaker 3: excited about it. And after that it really took off. 1013 00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,480 Speaker 3: It started getting debated all over the place. There's a 1014 00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,560 Speaker 3: heterodotsy economics international organization called Rethink Economics, which is all 1015 00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:38,480 Speaker 3: about like you know, inciting pluralism and the discipline. And 1016 00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:40,880 Speaker 3: in their Australian blog, because they're all over the world, 1017 00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:45,520 Speaker 3: an economist called Matthew Harris, you know, took up took 1018 00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:49,920 Speaker 3: up the controversy and basically sided with with Demusio, like 1019 00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:55,440 Speaker 3: and JW. Mason writing in Baron's also basically sided with 1020 00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,319 Speaker 3: us in an essay called the Fed Can't Fine Tune 1021 00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:03,120 Speaker 3: the Economy. JW. Mason's very important heterodox economists who's often 1022 00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:04,480 Speaker 3: on the cutting edge of a lot of these kind 1023 00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:09,640 Speaker 3: of theoretical developments. Interestingly, the first fellow though, Matthew Harris 1024 00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,480 Speaker 3: at Rethink Economics, he actually found a study which I 1025 00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:14,560 Speaker 3: was not aware of, which is why I love these 1026 00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:17,080 Speaker 3: When we started all these conversations all over the place, 1027 00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:18,920 Speaker 3: people dug up stuff that we didn't even know about. 1028 00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:21,640 Speaker 3: There was a study done by the National Bureau of 1029 00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:26,040 Speaker 3: Economic Research by two professors from the University of Chicago, 1030 00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:30,600 Speaker 3: but notably they were not University of Chicago economists. They 1031 00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:34,240 Speaker 3: were in the University of Chicago Business School. And as 1032 00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:37,520 Speaker 3: many people have pointed out, you know, capitalists started business 1033 00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:40,800 Speaker 3: schools because economists are basically just propaganda, but like, you 1034 00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:43,240 Speaker 3: actually also need people who know how the world actually 1035 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:45,400 Speaker 3: works in order to run your companies. So that's why 1036 00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:49,240 Speaker 3: economics and business schools are two separate schools. 1037 00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:51,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is like a real like I remember this 1038 00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:53,320 Speaker 2: on campus. This is like, this is a real thing. 1039 00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:57,080 Speaker 2: Where like, if you're so the business school, if I'm 1040 00:57:57,080 --> 00:57:59,400 Speaker 2: remembering correctly, the business school is like is most I 1041 00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:02,520 Speaker 2: think it's I think it might only be a grad 1042 00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:04,320 Speaker 2: school for han So let me let me look this up. 1043 00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:06,440 Speaker 2: Yeah that was my memory of it. Yeah, so, so 1044 00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:09,840 Speaker 2: this is a real thing because because the University of 1045 00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:14,800 Speaker 2: Chicago doesn't have an undergrad business program, you get people 1046 00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,120 Speaker 2: who want to do business who go into ECON and 1047 00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:21,320 Speaker 2: the ECON people fucking hate them because they see them 1048 00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:24,520 Speaker 2: as like like they see them as sort of like 1049 00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,120 Speaker 2: like these like inferior like fly by night people who 1050 00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:30,280 Speaker 2: don't care about like the sort of deep like the 1051 00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:33,640 Speaker 2: deep math and like the deep sort of like you know, 1052 00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:37,520 Speaker 2: like intellectual like political pursuit of economics. They just want 1053 00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:42,240 Speaker 2: to like go be a business person. And this has 1054 00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:46,840 Speaker 2: really interesting effects because it means that like you know, 1055 00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:49,080 Speaker 2: like the business school, cause it's not like the business 1056 00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:51,440 Speaker 2: school is like a bastion of leftist or whatever, but 1057 00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:57,080 Speaker 2: they don't agree on stuff a lot because they're like 1058 00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:01,680 Speaker 2: like the the University of Chicago Economics program, it produces 1059 00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:04,760 Speaker 2: basically two things. It produces like a bunch of people 1060 00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:07,120 Speaker 2: who go on to be investment bankers where you don't 1061 00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:09,000 Speaker 2: actually need to know how a firm works at all, 1062 00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:13,280 Speaker 2: and then it goes on to produce a bunch of 1063 00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:16,320 Speaker 2: people who become economists and so like it's it's actual 1064 00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:20,680 Speaker 2: sort of ideological purpose is is specifically it's it's a 1065 00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:23,600 Speaker 2: school that trains other economists, right, it's a school that 1066 00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:26,000 Speaker 2: teaches like the ruling class what to think, whereas the 1067 00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:28,520 Speaker 2: business school is like the school that teach This is 1068 00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:31,480 Speaker 2: like This is a very very very explicit. It's it's 1069 00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:35,080 Speaker 2: something that like when you're there, you can like watch 1070 00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,840 Speaker 2: like in practice, the fact that these aren't the same thing, 1071 00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:40,760 Speaker 2: and the fact that like you know, they're they're they're 1072 00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,480 Speaker 2: they're going to produce different conclusions because you know, the 1073 00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:49,520 Speaker 2: the like because like because their actual like purpose is different. 1074 00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:54,520 Speaker 2: One is ideological, the other one is like making money. 1075 00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:57,800 Speaker 3: Yes, and and and this is a great case study 1076 00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:01,400 Speaker 3: of it because these folks at the business school, their 1077 01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:07,920 Speaker 3: names are Nil's, Nils Gormson, and Killian Huber, they actually 1078 01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:12,560 Speaker 3: went and asked companies what they do when credit gets 1079 01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:15,520 Speaker 3: more expensive. Now, according to the theory, and this is the 1080 01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:17,600 Speaker 3: most sophisticated theory, the theory that people at the FED 1081 01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:19,560 Speaker 3: will tell you, which is, you know, you might need 1082 01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,360 Speaker 3: to put a few drinks into them first, but you know, 1083 01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:23,640 Speaker 3: it's like we have to induce a partial recession in 1084 01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:25,640 Speaker 3: order to make it so that people have less spending 1085 01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:27,560 Speaker 3: money in their pockets and prices get bidd down. 1086 01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:28,080 Speaker 6: Right. 1087 01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:30,800 Speaker 3: Theoretically, the mechanism by which this works at the individual 1088 01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:32,480 Speaker 3: firm is that the firm season that the cost of 1089 01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:35,680 Speaker 3: capital goes up and they invest less, you know, or 1090 01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:39,600 Speaker 3: just outright go out of business. Right, But in fact 1091 01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,520 Speaker 3: future investment is only weekly correlated to the cost of 1092 01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:46,880 Speaker 3: capital because of the limited transition into discount rates, you know, 1093 01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:50,920 Speaker 3: in other words, like basically there's no real effect. 1094 01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:56,160 Speaker 7: So yeah, you go around and do business service, sorry, 1095 01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:57,920 Speaker 7: go ahead companies. 1096 01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:06,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, they do a good amount, if not perhaps most, 1097 01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:12,439 Speaker 4: of their capital investment from cash on hand before going 1098 01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:14,080 Speaker 4: before seeking out finance. 1099 01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:16,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that and that like, and that means that 1100 01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:17,920 Speaker 2: it doesn't have an effect. 1101 01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:21,400 Speaker 4: And then even if you need financing their non debt finance, 1102 01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:25,400 Speaker 4: there's like equity finance, either private or public, that you 1103 01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:29,760 Speaker 4: have as an option site alongside the debt options exactly. 1104 01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:33,920 Speaker 3: So we go from like a situation where we published 1105 01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:37,640 Speaker 3: this article in twenty twenty two, right, and it's got 1106 01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,720 Speaker 3: a title that for a mainstream economist, even a very 1107 01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:46,200 Speaker 3: sophisticated one, is unthinkable, like do interest rates hikes, you know, 1108 01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:50,400 Speaker 3: cause inflation to get worse or even just don't matter 1109 01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:55,880 Speaker 3: for inflation. But then suddenly, like you have a bunch 1110 01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:58,600 Speaker 3: once it gets taken up by a larger discussion, you 1111 01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:01,800 Speaker 3: have a bunch of quite rep people saying the exact 1112 01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,560 Speaker 3: same thing, citing us directly, and even in one case, 1113 01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:09,480 Speaker 3: six months after our article comes out. Lo and behold 1114 01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:13,360 Speaker 3: that a certain little known economist rights in the Guardian. 1115 01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,760 Speaker 3: In fact, raising interest rates could do more harm than 1116 01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:20,360 Speaker 3: good by making it more expensive for firms to invest 1117 01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:24,560 Speaker 3: in solutions to the current supply constraints. The US federal reserves. 1118 01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:28,160 Speaker 3: Monetary tightening has already curtailed housing construction, even though more 1119 01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:30,160 Speaker 3: supply is precisely what is needed to bring down one 1120 01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:33,160 Speaker 3: of the biggest sources of inflation housing costs. Moreover, many 1121 01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:35,360 Speaker 3: price setters in the housing market may now pass the 1122 01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:38,480 Speaker 3: costs of doing business onto renters. You know. So in 1123 01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,160 Speaker 3: other words, like maybe higher interest rates can actually induce 1124 01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:43,800 Speaker 3: price increases as the higher interest rates and do businesses 1125 01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:46,240 Speaker 3: to write down the future value of lost customers relative 1126 01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:48,960 Speaker 3: to the benefit of higher prices to be sure, a 1127 01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:52,000 Speaker 3: deep recession you know, parenthesis like the kind of they're 1128 01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:55,320 Speaker 3: trying to induce. That's my parenthesis. Back to the quote, 1129 01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:58,480 Speaker 3: a deeper session would tame inflation. But why would we 1130 01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:02,400 Speaker 3: invite that? You know, Oh, Jerome Powell and his colleague 1131 01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,840 Speaker 3: seem to relish cheering against the economy. Meanwhile, they're friends 1132 01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:07,960 Speaker 3: in commercial banking are making out like bandits. Now that 1133 01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:10,760 Speaker 3: the Fed is paying four point four percent interests on 1134 01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,360 Speaker 3: more than three trillion dollars a bankers or balances. Blah blah, 1135 01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:16,120 Speaker 3: blah blah. Now this little known economist writing for The 1136 01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:20,040 Speaker 3: Guardian is Joseph Stieglitz, who won the Nobel Prize in economics. 1137 01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:25,240 Speaker 3: Now does he cite our article who's talking points he's 1138 01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:28,320 Speaker 3: basically going through point by point. No, does he cite 1139 01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:31,960 Speaker 3: any of the better known places that cited us that 1140 01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:35,280 Speaker 3: are heaterodox. No, he basically presents it as if it's 1141 01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,760 Speaker 3: his own idea. Now, maybe he did have this idea 1142 01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:40,000 Speaker 3: six months after we started. 1143 01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:43,840 Speaker 2: Axtendid in like Stinglets has not had a single idea 1144 01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:48,520 Speaker 2: in like fifteen years. Like that man, Oh, that man 1145 01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:51,520 Speaker 2: is a transparent medium through which the stuff that he 1146 01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:54,680 Speaker 2: reads appears on a page. I'm going to be made. 1147 01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:57,640 Speaker 2: I'm I'm sick of doing this bullshit. 1148 01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:00,600 Speaker 3: And you know the worst part is, like, you know, 1149 01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:04,640 Speaker 3: this is something that happens a lot. There's an orthodoxy 1150 01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:08,400 Speaker 3: that says certain things that are nonsense. The heterodoxy goes 1151 01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:10,600 Speaker 3: through the hard work of like figuring out the reasons 1152 01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:14,080 Speaker 3: why it's not true and presenting an alternative model. It's 1153 01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:19,960 Speaker 3: denied at first, but then increasingly it's just plagiarized, you know, 1154 01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:25,080 Speaker 3: perhaps accidentally, probably not, you know, like like and that 1155 01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:27,800 Speaker 3: it's presented as if actually, this is what the theory 1156 01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:30,680 Speaker 3: has always been all along, you know, and like, how 1157 01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:33,760 Speaker 3: can anyone think differently? And it's this, it's this unfortunate 1158 01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:37,880 Speaker 3: thing because since the neoclassicals control the discipline, they control 1159 01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:41,400 Speaker 3: advancement through the ranks of the economists, so they're always 1160 01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:44,280 Speaker 3: wrong and never right, but they're never punished for it, 1161 01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:46,760 Speaker 3: and they control all the leavers of who gets to 1162 01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:50,960 Speaker 3: be an economist. So it's this sort of like continual, sad, 1163 01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:54,280 Speaker 3: unfortunate thing. But on the bright side, we were right. 1164 01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:57,400 Speaker 3: We were right early A bunch of people picked it up, 1165 01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:00,000 Speaker 3: and our talking points ended up making it too very 1166 01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:02,439 Speaker 3: very distant and well regarded places to the point where 1167 01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:06,920 Speaker 3: now it's it's a viable alternative that exists out there 1168 01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:09,720 Speaker 3: in the world in terms of like, you know, why 1169 01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:12,600 Speaker 3: keep raising rates it's not doing any good, It could 1170 01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:14,880 Speaker 3: even do bad. And that's the talking point that I 1171 01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:17,440 Speaker 3: don't think would have existed if hadn't been for Democio's 1172 01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:20,240 Speaker 3: research which depended entirely upon the supply chain theory of 1173 01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:22,960 Speaker 3: inflation framework that Steve developed out of Fred Lee's work, 1174 01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:26,120 Speaker 3: which is basically a research program that now the magazine 1175 01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:29,440 Speaker 3: has put out there in the world that and it 1176 01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,880 Speaker 3: is continuing to build up on that. That actually makes 1177 01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:33,760 Speaker 3: it make more sense. 1178 01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:36,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I want to just sort of like take 1179 01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:38,880 Speaker 2: a second to highlight like how impressive it is had 1180 01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:42,400 Speaker 2: this happened, because like again like like a year and 1181 01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:45,960 Speaker 2: a half even like like like even like even like 1182 01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:49,320 Speaker 2: a year ago, right for the entire time I have 1183 01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:52,880 Speaker 2: been alive if you tried to say that raising interest 1184 01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:57,760 Speaker 2: rates raises inflation, like people would have thrown bananas at you, 1185 01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:01,240 Speaker 2: like like volleys of tomato. Was like they they would 1186 01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:03,040 Speaker 2: have like you would have you would have gotten sixteen 1187 01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:06,600 Speaker 2: contracts to be a professional clown like this. This was 1188 01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:08,720 Speaker 2: the thing that like you could not you couldn't even 1189 01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:12,720 Speaker 2: like suggest this, and you know, like within a pretty 1190 01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:16,280 Speaker 2: rapid span, suddenly like Stinglets is being like, ah, I 1191 01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:18,680 Speaker 2: want this very real. Maybe this is a plausible thing, 1192 01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:20,720 Speaker 2: and it's like, oh my, like I don't know, I 1193 01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:25,240 Speaker 2: think it's I think it's it's really it's really impressive 1194 01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:29,320 Speaker 2: watching how fast I don't know, like how fast the 1195 01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:33,600 Speaker 2: combinations of like reality and having an explanation of reality 1196 01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:36,479 Speaker 2: that actually like lines up with it has been able 1197 01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:40,000 Speaker 2: to change, like as been able to actually just sort 1198 01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:42,560 Speaker 2: of like change what the discourse at like the highest 1199 01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:45,320 Speaker 2: levels of power and sort of like what what has 1200 01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:49,640 Speaker 2: actually been happening in the economy like has shifted And 1201 01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:53,560 Speaker 2: that's wild, Like I would not have guessed that that 1202 01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:56,160 Speaker 2: that was the thing that was even remotely possible, and 1203 01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:57,600 Speaker 2: and yet we are now here. 1204 01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:02,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, the Overton window has shifted so far that like 1205 01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:05,840 Speaker 4: the idea that interest rates just don't seem to have 1206 01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:09,200 Speaker 4: any discernible effect upon the price level is kind of 1207 01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:10,560 Speaker 4: like becoming the base case. 1208 01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:12,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. 1209 01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:16,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, so like the entire yeah, the entire spectrum has 1210 01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:23,080 Speaker 4: shifted like a strong form and have like I'm starting 1211 01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:28,520 Speaker 4: to use that phrase now, by the way, And okay, 1212 01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:31,240 Speaker 4: people won't be throwing a ton of they'll still throw 1213 01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:35,160 Speaker 4: something at you, but like it's it's like manageable now. 1214 01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:39,040 Speaker 3: I mean you can always point to that argument from 1215 01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:42,840 Speaker 3: authority but says it might be so yeah, so you 1216 01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:43,480 Speaker 3: know it's like. 1217 01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:52,680 Speaker 2: Es he won the prize, really prize to. 1218 01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:55,840 Speaker 3: Should say about. 1219 01:07:58,600 --> 01:07:59,800 Speaker 2: Want this is a whole. 1220 01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:05,120 Speaker 3: The so called Nobel Prize in economics is not actually 1221 01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:09,600 Speaker 3: the Nobel Prize in economics. It's that there's Nobel prices 1222 01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:14,600 Speaker 3: in science and you know, literature and all this stuff 1223 01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:19,400 Speaker 3: that's administered by the Alfred Nobel Organization and the fund 1224 01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:23,920 Speaker 3: that he left and whatever. This started in the sixties, 1225 01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:26,120 Speaker 3: like I think some seventy years after the Nobel started 1226 01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:28,439 Speaker 3: or something like that, and it was started by the 1227 01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:31,599 Speaker 3: Swedish Central Bank to imitate the Nobel Prize. So technically 1228 01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:35,000 Speaker 3: it's the Nobel Memorial Prize in economics, you see. And 1229 01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:38,240 Speaker 3: it's and it's just it's basically like peeling off the 1230 01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:40,200 Speaker 3: skin of the face of the Nobel Prize and then 1231 01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:42,519 Speaker 3: wearing it, you know, and saying, where we have a 1232 01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:50,840 Speaker 3: Nobel price too. Totally basically it's not. And you know, 1233 01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:52,920 Speaker 3: it puts the lotion on its skin or else it 1234 01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:58,800 Speaker 3: gets the hose again. You know, they did this specifically. 1235 01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:03,920 Speaker 3: There's a historian of of economics. Oh my god, what 1236 01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:07,920 Speaker 3: the hell is his name? The it's it's the it's 1237 01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:12,800 Speaker 3: the more heat than like guy. He's oh my goodness. 1238 01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:16,600 Speaker 2: I cite him in the Friendly thing and I can't Mosi. 1239 01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:20,080 Speaker 3: Morowski, that's the guy. Yeah, Okay, So he actually like 1240 01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:22,760 Speaker 3: went and like studied the origins of it, and it 1241 01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:25,759 Speaker 3: turns out that they specifically did it as a scheme 1242 01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:28,120 Speaker 3: to only give the Nobel Prize to people who are 1243 01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:32,280 Speaker 3: basically like neoclassical economists, and they mostly have so sometimes 1244 01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:35,720 Speaker 3: they've diversed, but mostly they've done it to very reactionary economists. 1245 01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:38,360 Speaker 3: In order to promote neoclassical economists in Europe, because it 1246 01:09:38,400 --> 01:09:41,360 Speaker 3: was stronger in America than it was in Europe, and 1247 01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:43,960 Speaker 3: in order to promote the idea of central bank independence, 1248 01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:46,920 Speaker 3: which is a fancy term for uh, you know, the 1249 01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:53,680 Speaker 3: a central bank should not need to operate under a political, 1250 01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:59,639 Speaker 3: uh a democratically controlled you know, legislature that says, actually, 1251 01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:02,240 Speaker 3: we don't want more unemployment because that would be bad, 1252 01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:05,160 Speaker 3: so don't do that. Like, instead, they should have independence, 1253 01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:08,360 Speaker 3: the independence that allows them to technocratically decide that it's 1254 01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:10,200 Speaker 3: time for people to get out of work, you know, 1255 01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:13,400 Speaker 3: and and and that kind of thing. So you know, 1256 01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:16,479 Speaker 3: that's that's the story of the Sokel Nobel Prize. It's 1257 01:10:16,479 --> 01:10:18,599 Speaker 3: really the fake Nobel, Yeah, which is I just. 1258 01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:21,000 Speaker 2: Call it the fake Nobel yeah, which is also really 1259 01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:23,400 Speaker 2: funny if you talk to other people, like specifically, one 1260 01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:24,960 Speaker 2: of the things that happened to me when I was 1261 01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:26,439 Speaker 2: in the university was like I knew a bunch of 1262 01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:30,559 Speaker 2: people who were like really really good at math. Like 1263 01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:34,360 Speaker 2: one of my friends was like like like actual genuine 1264 01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:37,519 Speaker 2: prodigy was doing like like was doing like like graduate 1265 01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:39,920 Speaker 2: level like math in high school. And if you talk 1266 01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:42,080 Speaker 2: to these people, and you talk to like math professors 1267 01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:45,040 Speaker 2: about the Nobel Prizes, they like they will like yell 1268 01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:47,720 Speaker 2: about it for like twenty minutes because the math is 1269 01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:50,960 Speaker 2: so bullshit. It's like, yeah, this guy like like the 1270 01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:53,120 Speaker 2: math involved in these Nobel Prizes are like they figured 1271 01:10:53,160 --> 01:10:55,639 Speaker 2: out too blos two weekos four and they gave them 1272 01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:58,120 Speaker 2: like this fucking fake Nobel prize. You look at like 1273 01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:00,680 Speaker 2: the fields metal and it's like, I don't know, like 1274 01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:03,360 Speaker 2: it's it's it's it's it's it's really nonsense. All the 1275 01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:04,960 Speaker 2: math people are really mad about the fact that the 1276 01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:06,880 Speaker 2: econ people think that they know math because they don't. 1277 01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:09,200 Speaker 2: And the consequence of this is you get these like that, 1278 01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:11,599 Speaker 2: you get people handing out Nobel prices for saying shit 1279 01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:15,439 Speaker 2: like the economy can't miss like the market can't miss price, 1280 01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:18,759 Speaker 2: like in like assets that are like the price of houses, 1281 01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:21,720 Speaker 2: and then the entire housing market immediately imployed because it 1282 01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:24,479 Speaker 2: was all miss priced. It's it's it's a disaster. It 1283 01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:28,559 Speaker 2: has been. I don't know. We should everyone at all 1284 01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:32,599 Speaker 2: times should be doing anti fake Nobeil price propaganda against 1285 01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:36,280 Speaker 2: the economics Nobel price, because it's it's it's fake and 1286 01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:37,960 Speaker 2: bad and we should all say it more. 1287 01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:42,120 Speaker 4: Uh, you know, there's on the heterodox side of things, 1288 01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:46,240 Speaker 4: there's some really promising uses of mathematical economics to create 1289 01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:50,680 Speaker 4: like input output matrices. Yeah, and to model, like do 1290 01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:54,760 Speaker 4: an io model of the economy that the math is 1291 01:11:54,920 --> 01:11:59,000 Speaker 4: very much subservient to empirical data that is coming in 1292 01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:02,400 Speaker 4: that trains them model, and it like like to so 1293 01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:06,040 Speaker 4: much of economics is well, data fits, data fits the model. 1294 01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:08,720 Speaker 4: Data fits the model, like over and over again when 1295 01:12:08,720 --> 01:12:10,240 Speaker 4: it should be the other way around. 1296 01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:14,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, does the model fit the data, because if 1297 01:12:14,320 --> 01:12:15,840 Speaker 3: it doesn't, then you got to throw it out like 1298 01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:19,679 Speaker 3: this whole like raising interest rates is going to control prices? Bullshit? 1299 01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:23,639 Speaker 3: When has that even happened? Theoretically happened in the seventies, 1300 01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:25,639 Speaker 3: but then you look at it and yeah, it doesn't 1301 01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:28,960 Speaker 3: tell you that story. So you know, do they throw 1302 01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:29,280 Speaker 3: it out? 1303 01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:38,519 Speaker 4: No, like brief brief callback to Fred Lee's table table 1304 01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:40,960 Speaker 4: B was it? 1305 01:12:40,240 --> 01:12:40,320 Speaker 3: Oh? 1306 01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:44,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, is the Blinder study in there? I forget? 1307 01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:47,160 Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, that's like an instance. 1308 01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:50,960 Speaker 4: That's an instance where Alan Blinder is and neoclassical economists 1309 01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:57,320 Speaker 4: who like, he messed up and did real science and 1310 01:12:57,400 --> 01:13:01,040 Speaker 4: what he found was was the administer price theory. 1311 01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:05,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, he made the terrible mistake of thinking that his 1312 01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:08,080 Speaker 3: bullshit theory would be vindicated and then it turns out 1313 01:13:08,080 --> 01:13:08,640 Speaker 3: that it was not. 1314 01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:14,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's just like the history of intellectual thought for 1315 01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:17,559 Speaker 4: economics is like replete with examples where they kind of 1316 01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:20,040 Speaker 4: like they screw up and they actually do real science 1317 01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:22,719 Speaker 4: for a change, and like find things like cost plus 1318 01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:23,599 Speaker 4: markups happening. 1319 01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:27,760 Speaker 3: And he tries so hard to explain it away. You know, 1320 01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:31,480 Speaker 3: he's like, well, supply and demand exists. 1321 01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:35,040 Speaker 8: It's just that these prices are sticky because the cost 1322 01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:39,400 Speaker 8: of changing the price on the menu is actually too expensive, 1323 01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:42,759 Speaker 8: so they choose not to and that's why prices are sticky. 1324 01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:46,360 Speaker 3: They can't they can't change the stickers. You know, it's 1325 01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:47,519 Speaker 3: completely insane. 1326 01:13:48,439 --> 01:13:52,120 Speaker 4: The cost of admit there's a cost to administering prices themselves, 1327 01:13:52,439 --> 01:13:56,160 Speaker 4: and that's why they don't change prices. Like the price 1328 01:13:56,240 --> 01:14:02,560 Speaker 4: mechanism for neoclassical economics would suggest. 1329 01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:03,879 Speaker 3: To look for the stickers, and he couldn't find it. 1330 01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:06,880 Speaker 3: You couldn't find the costs. So he's like, well, I 1331 01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:10,040 Speaker 3: guess it's not sticky because of menu costs. It's like, 1332 01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:14,680 Speaker 3: I wonder what it could be. What a mystery? 1333 01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:17,559 Speaker 2: Okay, so we we should we should start wrapping up 1334 01:14:17,560 --> 01:14:18,840 Speaker 2: because this has been This has been a very long 1335 01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:21,639 Speaker 2: episode already, but I wanted to ask before we go, 1336 01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:24,720 Speaker 2: what what what? What are you all doing next? And 1337 01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:29,240 Speaker 2: what other incredibly funny economics discourses can we expect to 1338 01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:33,679 Speaker 2: have giant like creators punched into in the next couple 1339 01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:34,120 Speaker 2: of years. 1340 01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:37,000 Speaker 4: So one thing we've started to work on, and we've 1341 01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:41,920 Speaker 4: discussed a little bit on this podcast, I believe. Yeah, Well, 1342 01:14:42,000 --> 01:14:46,719 Speaker 4: Beck was the importance of for X foreign exchange for 1343 01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:51,080 Speaker 4: all sorts of microeconomic things like inflation being one of them, 1344 01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:57,160 Speaker 4: Like if you're a small country that that does not 1345 01:14:57,360 --> 01:15:02,280 Speaker 4: have hegemonic monetary authority like the US does to get 1346 01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:04,600 Speaker 4: people to use its currency and you have to go 1347 01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:07,760 Speaker 4: out and import things and some other currency. How does 1348 01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:11,080 Speaker 4: that affect your ability to socially provision yourself as a 1349 01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:16,160 Speaker 4: nation state and like do development work. And we're developing 1350 01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:19,800 Speaker 4: a theory of for X. Essentially that is it's a 1351 01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:25,880 Speaker 4: it's an extension of the chartlist framework that informs MMT, 1352 01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:31,400 Speaker 4: but with some important criticisms about how like the central 1353 01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:35,519 Speaker 4: MMT insights sort of is like you can create if 1354 01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:40,120 Speaker 4: you're the sovereign issuer of your own fiat currency, you 1355 01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:43,000 Speaker 4: can always provision enough of it to you can always 1356 01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:45,559 Speaker 4: spend as much of it into existence as you need 1357 01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:50,400 Speaker 4: to to do productive things. And yes, that's true. You 1358 01:15:50,439 --> 01:15:53,160 Speaker 4: can create infinity of your own money, but your own 1359 01:15:53,479 --> 01:15:57,559 Speaker 4: not other people's money. Yeah, so other currencies like if you're. 1360 01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:09,160 Speaker 2: Like, uh, really Sri Lanka for example. 1361 01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:12,840 Speaker 4: If you're Sri Lanka or Mexico or whoever, most of 1362 01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:17,040 Speaker 4: most of the world, basically you need to maintain and 1363 01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:21,479 Speaker 4: augment your balance of like the trading the major trading 1364 01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:27,880 Speaker 4: currencies US dollars, yen, the euro, to name three, and 1365 01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:32,559 Speaker 4: have balances of those. You need to maintain your balance 1366 01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:37,320 Speaker 4: of payments and your balances of specific currencies in order 1367 01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:43,360 Speaker 4: to meet the biophysical obligations that your whatever your development 1368 01:16:43,400 --> 01:16:49,799 Speaker 4: strategy necessitates, because in most instances, not all, but most, 1369 01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:52,680 Speaker 4: you're going to need to, like no one's going if 1370 01:16:52,680 --> 01:16:55,840 Speaker 4: you're Sri Lanka, no one's going to want to to 1371 01:16:56,040 --> 01:17:01,200 Speaker 4: transact in your currency. For major purchases of like staple goods. 1372 01:17:01,880 --> 01:17:04,200 Speaker 4: You're going to need to use like dollars or euros 1373 01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:06,880 Speaker 4: or end or are you on perhaps you know who 1374 01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:10,280 Speaker 4: knows exactly one of the major trading currencies. 1375 01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:12,759 Speaker 3: And this also raises the question of how it currency 1376 01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:16,280 Speaker 3: becomes a major trading currency, and that almost invariably takes 1377 01:17:16,320 --> 01:17:20,320 Speaker 3: you in two directions. One is which countries are powerful 1378 01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:23,200 Speaker 3: and able to industrialize and make capital goods that nobody 1379 01:17:23,240 --> 01:17:26,280 Speaker 3: else has that everybody wants a piece of. And two, 1380 01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:29,559 Speaker 3: which are the powerful imperialist great powers. And it turns 1381 01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:35,440 Speaker 3: out that those are the nexus that's created between imperialism, development, 1382 01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:39,040 Speaker 3: and the balance of payments. Those three things can't even 1383 01:17:39,080 --> 01:17:43,200 Speaker 3: be discussed independently of each other, and the politics of 1384 01:17:43,280 --> 01:17:45,439 Speaker 3: what is going to be used as the what Steve 1385 01:17:45,479 --> 01:17:48,439 Speaker 3: and I are tentatively calling the international means of payment, 1386 01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:52,760 Speaker 3: in other words, what you can use in international transactions 1387 01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:56,280 Speaker 3: across a whole region or across the entire planet. That 1388 01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:59,599 Speaker 3: is a hugely political question that all the major great 1389 01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:03,080 Speaker 3: powers in their interimperial conflict are constantly fighting over. So 1390 01:18:03,160 --> 01:18:06,320 Speaker 3: right now it appears that China is attempting to make 1391 01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:08,840 Speaker 3: a bid for a global yuon. First, they tried to 1392 01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:11,639 Speaker 3: do it through the digital un Now they're seemingly trying 1393 01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:13,960 Speaker 3: to do it through bricks by getting the other bricks 1394 01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:16,400 Speaker 3: countries to agree to a kind of EUON gold standard, 1395 01:18:16,479 --> 01:18:19,679 Speaker 3: mirroring the Breton Woods agreement that was basically the dollar 1396 01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:23,400 Speaker 3: piggybacking off of gold to reach global pre eminence. Will 1397 01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:26,760 Speaker 3: it work, will it not? Nobody really knows. It's a 1398 01:18:26,760 --> 01:18:30,320 Speaker 3: total mess. But in theory, that could be one way 1399 01:18:30,600 --> 01:18:33,880 Speaker 3: that you could suddenly have, like the yuon, at least 1400 01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:37,040 Speaker 3: in a certain currency zone, be used as the main 1401 01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:42,200 Speaker 3: way of doing imports, and if the US suddenly needs 1402 01:18:42,240 --> 01:18:45,559 Speaker 3: an import from that zone, which hypothetically, if it existed, 1403 01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:49,639 Speaker 3: right they couldn't use dollars anymore, or or maybe dollars 1404 01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:51,920 Speaker 3: would be at a high disadvantage, you know, in the 1405 01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:54,479 Speaker 3: exchange rate between dollars and that currency at that point, 1406 01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:57,200 Speaker 3: or maybe they would just be banned entirely from using dollars. 1407 01:18:57,200 --> 01:18:58,840 Speaker 3: They have to get it in that currency, which means 1408 01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:01,200 Speaker 3: is suddenly the US, which has basically been able to 1409 01:19:01,240 --> 01:19:04,479 Speaker 3: print for X, to print the international means of payment 1410 01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:07,719 Speaker 3: for some fifty years now, would suddenly have to actually 1411 01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:10,160 Speaker 3: hold reserves of this thing. Now, if we have to 1412 01:19:10,200 --> 01:19:11,680 Speaker 3: hold reserves of it, that means that we have to 1413 01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:14,760 Speaker 3: sell something to the people who issue that currency. That 1414 01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:18,000 Speaker 3: means that we suddenly have to worry about which firms 1415 01:19:18,160 --> 01:19:21,360 Speaker 3: are the most profitable exporters. And I bet you anything 1416 01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:24,720 Speaker 3: that none of our listeners know what the most important 1417 01:19:24,720 --> 01:19:30,120 Speaker 3: company in America would become if that situation happened. Is 1418 01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:36,680 Speaker 3: it Uber? Is it Amazon? Is it all these like 1419 01:19:36,720 --> 01:19:38,400 Speaker 3: Fortune five hundred companies and whatever? 1420 01:19:38,520 --> 01:19:38,840 Speaker 2: No? 1421 01:19:38,840 --> 01:19:40,439 Speaker 3: No, I mean it's one of the Fortune five hundred, 1422 01:19:40,479 --> 01:19:42,360 Speaker 3: But it's not like towards the top of that list. 1423 01:19:42,640 --> 01:19:48,559 Speaker 3: It's Boeing. Boeing is by far our single greatest exporter firm. 1424 01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:51,919 Speaker 3: It would be in a situation like this, the national champion, 1425 01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:54,800 Speaker 3: so to speak, to use language that's usually reserved for 1426 01:19:56,040 --> 01:19:59,719 Speaker 3: less developed countries than the US. And this is exactly 1427 01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:04,160 Speaker 3: the kind of like thinking that is important, because you know, obviously. 1428 01:20:04,200 --> 01:20:06,120 Speaker 3: The other thing that would happen if dollar hegemony ended 1429 01:20:06,200 --> 01:20:08,120 Speaker 3: is that it would be a huge economic crash in 1430 01:20:08,160 --> 01:20:11,360 Speaker 3: the US, Like suddenly the import the costs of importing 1431 01:20:11,400 --> 01:20:14,280 Speaker 3: anything that we're in that zone would skyrocket, and it 1432 01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:17,120 Speaker 3: would mess up, you know, our ballance of payments, and 1433 01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:19,719 Speaker 3: it would cause inflation, depending on how quickly it happens 1434 01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:22,160 Speaker 3: and how how little, how much or how little time 1435 01:20:22,240 --> 01:20:25,599 Speaker 3: firms have to adjust their supply chains and stuff like that. 1436 01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:28,760 Speaker 3: So it's, uh, this is exactly what you need in 1437 01:20:28,840 --> 01:20:31,040 Speaker 3: order to understand everything from the decline and fall of 1438 01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:35,519 Speaker 3: the Roman Empire to current geopolitics today. And and and 1439 01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:38,439 Speaker 3: I'm hoping that that Steve and I, through developing the theory, 1440 01:20:38,479 --> 01:20:41,240 Speaker 3: will create a general framework that can be used to 1441 01:20:41,320 --> 01:20:44,360 Speaker 3: tie discussions that people usually have in purely political terms 1442 01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:49,000 Speaker 3: about interimperial conflict into economic questions, so that there's no 1443 01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:53,600 Speaker 3: longer a kind of division of labor between between economics 1444 01:20:53,640 --> 01:20:56,000 Speaker 3: which denies the existence of imperialism. And then the people 1445 01:20:56,000 --> 01:20:58,880 Speaker 3: who study imperialism as historians or political scientists. 1446 01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:04,679 Speaker 2: Or whatever, stay stay tuned for more theories dropping at 1447 01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:05,920 Speaker 2: some point in the future. 1448 01:21:07,800 --> 01:21:10,680 Speaker 3: Oh and we should do our marketing pitch. If you 1449 01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:13,519 Speaker 3: like the stuff that you hear, you should seriously consider 1450 01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:16,439 Speaker 3: checking out the magazine which is at Strange Matters dot 1451 01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:18,960 Speaker 3: co op. And also please consider if you have the 1452 01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:23,559 Speaker 3: ability to subscribe or donate subscription storty five dollars. And 1453 01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:27,639 Speaker 3: it really, uh, it really helps because all the money 1454 01:21:27,680 --> 01:21:29,400 Speaker 3: that we get that doesn't just go to our capitalist 1455 01:21:29,479 --> 01:21:32,160 Speaker 3: overlords for basically like you know, paying for the services 1456 01:21:32,200 --> 01:21:33,760 Speaker 3: that we use to keep the website going and the 1457 01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:36,000 Speaker 3: magazine going. All of it goes to our writers, and 1458 01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:37,479 Speaker 3: we try to pay them a both market rate for 1459 01:21:37,520 --> 01:21:41,240 Speaker 3: little magazines of our size. So if you want to 1460 01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:45,400 Speaker 3: see more of this stuff and more arts, philosophy, anthropology, history, 1461 01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:48,800 Speaker 3: all the other kind of stuff poetry that we publish, 1462 01:21:49,200 --> 01:21:50,599 Speaker 3: definitely please consider. 1463 01:21:51,280 --> 01:21:53,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, well we'll we'll put we'll put a link to 1464 01:21:53,240 --> 01:21:56,760 Speaker 2: the magazine and the description. Yeah, Steve GenZ, thank you 1465 01:21:56,800 --> 01:21:58,479 Speaker 2: so much for thank you so much for being on 1466 01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:04,120 Speaker 2: the show and for yelling at the kind of opriced 1467 01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:04,479 Speaker 2: with me. 1468 01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:08,400 Speaker 4: It's been a pleasure. 1469 01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:10,240 Speaker 3: It's been great MANA thank you. 1470 01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:13,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can find us at it could happen here, 1471 01:22:14,120 --> 01:22:18,240 Speaker 2: but that happened here pod on Twitter and Instagram. Yeah, 1472 01:22:18,280 --> 01:22:21,120 Speaker 2: we have a website where we post our sources. It's 1473 01:22:21,120 --> 01:22:22,880 Speaker 2: schools on media dot Com. There's other stuff there. You 1474 01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:27,280 Speaker 2: should go there and yeah, go into the world and 1475 01:22:27,320 --> 01:22:47,760 Speaker 2: make life worse for mainstream economists. It could happen here. 1476 01:22:47,880 --> 01:22:50,840 Speaker 2: It's the podcast that's called it could Happen here. I 1477 01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:53,040 Speaker 2: think things fall apart and put them back together again, etcetera, 1478 01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:55,479 Speaker 2: et cetera. We're slightly rushing this intro because Garrison have 1479 01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:59,639 Speaker 2: to leave in like ten minutes, not ten minutes, but yeah, 1480 01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:02,880 Speaker 2: we're with the way. Yeah. So we've spent a lot 1481 01:23:02,920 --> 01:23:05,840 Speaker 2: of time covering the sort of various aspects of the 1482 01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:08,439 Speaker 2: transgend aside we haven't The aspect of the angle we 1483 01:23:08,479 --> 01:23:12,160 Speaker 2: haven't covered that much is The New York Times. And 1484 01:23:12,360 --> 01:23:15,720 Speaker 2: partially that's my fault because if I every time I 1485 01:23:15,840 --> 01:23:17,400 Speaker 2: try to write something about New York Times, it has 1486 01:23:17,439 --> 01:23:20,160 Speaker 2: devolved into about seven hours and me reading every single 1487 01:23:20,160 --> 01:23:21,800 Speaker 2: time The New York Times wrote an article that was 1488 01:23:21,840 --> 01:23:26,640 Speaker 2: pro Hitler. So you know, it's difficult to be what 1489 01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:29,439 Speaker 2: you would describe as reasonably objective when you're talking about 1490 01:23:29,479 --> 01:23:32,759 Speaker 2: these people and not just start yelling about the Iraq War. However, 1491 01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:35,160 Speaker 2: coma other people have done a very very good job 1492 01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:38,320 Speaker 2: about this, and things have developed in the sort of 1493 01:23:38,439 --> 01:23:45,479 Speaker 2: world of the New York Times printing just incredibly bizarre 1494 01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:51,879 Speaker 2: transphobic articles. And to talk about one of these things 1495 01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:55,840 Speaker 2: and some developments on one of their stories, we are 1496 01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:58,160 Speaker 2: talking to Evan erk Hard of Assigned Media, who has 1497 01:23:58,320 --> 01:24:03,840 Speaker 2: published a very very good story about some real nonsense 1498 01:24:03,960 --> 01:24:06,599 Speaker 2: that the New York Times and their journalists have gotten 1499 01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:08,679 Speaker 2: up to. So Fa, welcome to the show. 1500 01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:12,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, thanks for having me. Always glad to talk about nonsense. 1501 01:24:12,880 --> 01:24:16,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been it's it's been a real time. Also, 1502 01:24:16,479 --> 01:24:22,840 Speaker 2: here is Garrison. Yeah. So I guess, okay, I think 1503 01:24:22,920 --> 01:24:25,880 Speaker 2: the place to start with this is getting people caught 1504 01:24:25,960 --> 01:24:29,360 Speaker 2: up with the incredibly bizarre story of Jamie Reid. So 1505 01:24:29,400 --> 01:24:31,280 Speaker 2: I guess I wanted to start there, of can you 1506 01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:34,080 Speaker 2: talk a little bit about who Jamie Reid is and 1507 01:24:34,160 --> 01:24:36,160 Speaker 2: how the New York Times and a bunch of other 1508 01:24:36,360 --> 01:24:40,000 Speaker 2: very less reputable somehow newspapers got involved with this. 1509 01:24:41,360 --> 01:24:44,720 Speaker 5: Yeah. So, I mean there are certainly reputable newspapers that 1510 01:24:44,840 --> 01:24:49,439 Speaker 5: have looked into the allegations of former Gender Clinics staff 1511 01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:56,040 Speaker 5: member in Saint Louis, Jamie Reid, and those organizations including 1512 01:24:56,280 --> 01:25:01,200 Speaker 5: local papers, have found that her allegations didn't hold up. 1513 01:25:03,560 --> 01:25:03,960 Speaker 4: This was. 1514 01:25:05,640 --> 01:25:08,000 Speaker 5: Months ago, kind of the beginning of the year, I believe. 1515 01:25:09,080 --> 01:25:12,200 Speaker 5: She kind of came forward with great fanfare and an 1516 01:25:12,280 --> 01:25:19,000 Speaker 5: alliance defending freedom lawyer and said that the gender clinic 1517 01:25:19,080 --> 01:25:23,920 Speaker 5: she once worked at was harming children. They weren't engaging 1518 01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:28,280 Speaker 5: in informed consent. They were pressuring parents to go along 1519 01:25:28,439 --> 01:25:33,280 Speaker 5: with these harmful treatments, horrifying stuff that if true, would 1520 01:25:33,280 --> 01:25:39,080 Speaker 5: be just a major, major scandal if true. And the 1521 01:25:39,400 --> 01:25:45,200 Speaker 5: allegations fell apart pretty quickly. Numerous parents and patients came back, came, 1522 01:25:45,439 --> 01:25:48,240 Speaker 5: you know, forward saying this is nothing like what we've experienced. 1523 01:25:50,120 --> 01:25:52,960 Speaker 5: Some of that was pretty directly refuting things that she said, 1524 01:25:53,160 --> 01:25:56,479 Speaker 5: such as, you know, kids never got any therapy. They 1525 01:25:56,560 --> 01:25:59,840 Speaker 5: just saw a therapist for an hour and an undercanologist 1526 01:25:59,920 --> 01:26:03,160 Speaker 5: for an hour and were immediately approved for hormones. And 1527 01:26:03,200 --> 01:26:05,679 Speaker 5: so people came forward saying, I did six months of therapy, 1528 01:26:05,720 --> 01:26:06,360 Speaker 5: I did nine months. 1529 01:26:07,240 --> 01:26:10,960 Speaker 2: I wish you could do that. Like no, like right. 1530 01:26:11,240 --> 01:26:11,559 Speaker 3: I mean. 1531 01:26:12,439 --> 01:26:19,639 Speaker 5: It was very wild and very discredited. And then, for 1532 01:26:19,680 --> 01:26:23,320 Speaker 5: some reason, apparently back in May, as Ing Graashi of 1533 01:26:23,400 --> 01:26:26,799 Speaker 5: the New York Times started looking into this story, and 1534 01:26:28,439 --> 01:26:30,559 Speaker 5: she didn't find anything different. I mean, if you look 1535 01:26:30,600 --> 01:26:33,200 Speaker 5: at her reporting, if anything, she found even more evidence 1536 01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:35,400 Speaker 5: that Jamie Reid is not accurate and not on the 1537 01:26:35,479 --> 01:26:37,400 Speaker 5: up and up. But the story that she came out 1538 01:26:37,400 --> 01:26:39,080 Speaker 5: with is really really weird. 1539 01:26:39,640 --> 01:26:41,880 Speaker 2: And and I think the thing, the thing that that 1540 01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:46,719 Speaker 2: is the most at least before the most recent round 1541 01:26:46,960 --> 01:26:52,720 Speaker 2: of incredibly bizarre stuff, the thing that's the most infuriating 1542 01:26:52,720 --> 01:26:55,000 Speaker 2: to me about the sort of Jamie Reid's story is 1543 01:26:55,040 --> 01:26:58,800 Speaker 2: that the thing that had come out by the time 1544 01:26:58,800 --> 01:27:00,559 Speaker 2: The New York Times is writing about it was that 1545 01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:04,760 Speaker 2: it looked a lot like if you look at the 1546 01:27:04,800 --> 01:27:06,800 Speaker 2: stuff that Jamie Reid had been doing and people talking 1547 01:27:06,800 --> 01:27:08,800 Speaker 2: about their experiences with her, it looked like she was 1548 01:27:08,840 --> 01:27:13,080 Speaker 2: trying to sabotage kids getting healthcare because she personally didn't 1549 01:27:13,080 --> 01:27:13,679 Speaker 2: believe in it. 1550 01:27:14,960 --> 01:27:17,920 Speaker 5: I talked to a parent, a parent who was also 1551 01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:21,559 Speaker 5: talked to by The New York Times, who had really 1552 01:27:21,600 --> 01:27:24,479 Speaker 5: just wanted like an educational visit for her like eight 1553 01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:27,759 Speaker 5: year old, and Jamie Reid said, we can't do anything 1554 01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:33,400 Speaker 5: for you. Sorry. You know, we can only bring you 1555 01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:36,360 Speaker 5: in if your child is an adolescent ready to go 1556 01:27:36,400 --> 01:27:39,599 Speaker 5: on hormone therapy. And so after the allegations came out, 1557 01:27:39,640 --> 01:27:42,439 Speaker 5: this parent got in touch with the clinic Jamie Reid 1558 01:27:42,479 --> 01:27:44,080 Speaker 5: had left, and they were like, what are you talking about. 1559 01:27:44,160 --> 01:27:47,040 Speaker 5: We do educational appointments all the time. Come in. They 1560 01:27:47,080 --> 01:27:50,240 Speaker 5: spent you know, almost two hours talking to the family 1561 01:27:50,240 --> 01:27:52,599 Speaker 5: about the different you know, medical possibilities in the far 1562 01:27:52,840 --> 01:27:55,640 Speaker 5: future and just you know, trying to help educate the 1563 01:27:55,720 --> 01:27:58,519 Speaker 5: kid about their body and their options years and years 1564 01:27:58,520 --> 01:27:59,799 Speaker 5: before they never did anything. 1565 01:28:00,560 --> 01:28:03,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is really infuriating because like the actual story 1566 01:28:03,600 --> 01:28:06,840 Speaker 2: here is that you know, even even clinics that are 1567 01:28:06,840 --> 01:28:09,559 Speaker 2: like trying to do the right thing wind up with 1568 01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:14,479 Speaker 2: just incredibly deranged CIS people who basically can at every 1569 01:28:14,520 --> 01:28:16,879 Speaker 2: point in the process act as a gatekeeper and decide 1570 01:28:16,880 --> 01:28:20,160 Speaker 2: that like you don't get to get treatments, and that's 1571 01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:24,120 Speaker 2: awful and is one of them. I mean, you know, 1572 01:28:24,680 --> 01:28:27,920 Speaker 2: even even in place, even even in parts of the US, 1573 01:28:27,960 --> 01:28:30,200 Speaker 2: at clinics that are good, that is the thing that 1574 01:28:30,200 --> 01:28:32,240 Speaker 2: can just happen to you is you get the sort 1575 01:28:32,280 --> 01:28:36,479 Speaker 2: of gatekeeper stuff. But instead of doing that, instead of 1576 01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:39,839 Speaker 2: again covering the story they had been handed about someone 1577 01:28:40,280 --> 01:28:43,920 Speaker 2: trying to keep kids from getting health care, they did 1578 01:28:44,000 --> 01:28:46,360 Speaker 2: this they you know this, This turned into this like 1579 01:28:46,360 --> 01:28:52,840 Speaker 2: like full court press against Wait, Gary, you you're right. 1580 01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:57,519 Speaker 9: I closed my door because the air conditioner is way 1581 01:28:57,520 --> 01:29:02,080 Speaker 9: too loud. Only now the cats start screaming at the door. 1582 01:29:02,439 --> 01:29:04,320 Speaker 9: But now I open the door. They and they don't 1583 01:29:04,320 --> 01:29:07,000 Speaker 9: want to come in. They're just like all the threshold, 1584 01:29:07,080 --> 01:29:09,639 Speaker 9: just like staring at me, like make a choice, come 1585 01:29:09,680 --> 01:29:10,400 Speaker 9: in or come out. 1586 01:29:11,000 --> 01:29:12,880 Speaker 3: And I think we're leaving this in. 1587 01:29:13,200 --> 01:29:20,439 Speaker 2: This's great content. They're out, They're gone. They had their chance. 1588 01:29:21,160 --> 01:29:25,479 Speaker 2: They blew it. Yeah, what happens instead is is this 1589 01:29:25,520 --> 01:29:28,680 Speaker 2: sort of like full court press with a bunch of 1590 01:29:29,439 --> 01:29:31,760 Speaker 2: you know, starting in sort of conservative media and then 1591 01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:34,960 Speaker 2: moving into sort of liberal media, like using this story 1592 01:29:35,000 --> 01:29:36,960 Speaker 2: as an example of like why why we have to 1593 01:29:36,960 --> 01:29:40,160 Speaker 2: like stop like we have to shut down clinics and 1594 01:29:40,160 --> 01:29:41,240 Speaker 2: stuff while. 1595 01:29:41,160 --> 01:29:47,639 Speaker 9: Children's hospitals are getting bomb threats, Yeah, constantly, mostly due 1596 01:29:47,640 --> 01:29:51,000 Speaker 9: to kind of prodding by ghouls the Daily Wire who 1597 01:29:51,040 --> 01:29:54,040 Speaker 9: are hunting for clicks. And yeah, there's also a big 1598 01:29:54,080 --> 01:29:58,760 Speaker 9: part of this is like this tactic of attacking like 1599 01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:01,800 Speaker 9: healthcare centers and clinics proved to be a pretty good 1600 01:30:01,840 --> 01:30:05,720 Speaker 9: recipe to go viral. That's what the Daily Wire discovered. 1601 01:30:06,040 --> 01:30:09,200 Speaker 9: And that's something that New York Times certainly took notice 1602 01:30:09,200 --> 01:30:11,600 Speaker 9: of as well, is that, hey, this is this is 1603 01:30:11,600 --> 01:30:16,200 Speaker 9: a way to drive a lot of attention towards our website. 1604 01:30:16,479 --> 01:30:19,679 Speaker 9: That is just another another angle about this, this sort 1605 01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:22,920 Speaker 9: of thing which also like it leads to real world consequences, 1606 01:30:22,960 --> 01:30:26,040 Speaker 9: not just in terms of healthcare getting restricted, but also 1607 01:30:26,080 --> 01:30:29,879 Speaker 9: like threats of violence against doctors. The right has historically 1608 01:30:29,920 --> 01:30:32,559 Speaker 9: been completely willing to carry out acts of violence against 1609 01:30:32,880 --> 01:30:37,040 Speaker 9: healthcare workers and let alone you know, trying threatening to 1610 01:30:37,080 --> 01:30:38,200 Speaker 9: bomb a children's hospital. 1611 01:30:39,080 --> 01:30:43,679 Speaker 5: Yeah, and the exact allegations were were really devastating for 1612 01:30:44,080 --> 01:30:48,280 Speaker 5: these families. I mean, I love to Heidi, who's you know, 1613 01:30:49,200 --> 01:30:55,320 Speaker 5: her daughter's personal medical history was misrepresented, shared with the world, 1614 01:30:55,880 --> 01:31:00,599 Speaker 5: shared in a million articles, and used to to fuel 1615 01:31:00,720 --> 01:31:03,160 Speaker 5: gender firm and care bands, you know. I mean that 1616 01:31:03,320 --> 01:31:06,599 Speaker 5: is like really damaging for a like seventeen eighteen year 1617 01:31:06,600 --> 01:31:09,559 Speaker 5: old who's just trying to like live her life in 1618 01:31:09,600 --> 01:31:10,719 Speaker 5: kind of a conservative town. 1619 01:31:11,960 --> 01:31:15,160 Speaker 2: Which also and this is another aspect of this, is 1620 01:31:15,240 --> 01:31:20,240 Speaker 2: like she is sharing the private medical history of patients 1621 01:31:20,280 --> 01:31:23,400 Speaker 2: at a clinic, which you are not allowed to do. 1622 01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:26,479 Speaker 2: That is a which is very funny for people who 1623 01:31:26,560 --> 01:31:29,720 Speaker 2: rant about these all of these people all the time. 1624 01:31:30,160 --> 01:31:33,439 Speaker 2: We finally got one, we finally got an actual hippo violation, 1625 01:31:33,680 --> 01:31:36,120 Speaker 2: and h yeah. 1626 01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:38,800 Speaker 5: I think the hippa thing has been I mean, you know, 1627 01:31:38,960 --> 01:31:41,760 Speaker 5: as Zingeration could have gotten that story, I feel, I mean, 1628 01:31:41,800 --> 01:31:45,240 Speaker 5: I think it's been really undercovered. My understanding is that 1629 01:31:45,280 --> 01:31:49,240 Speaker 5: healthcare workers are not supposed to have to share information 1630 01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:52,320 Speaker 5: that's identifiable to the patient. And we have a patient 1631 01:31:52,400 --> 01:31:55,320 Speaker 5: saying I could tell this was my story. And so 1632 01:31:56,000 --> 01:31:59,000 Speaker 5: again I'm not a lawyer, but I think that people 1633 01:31:59,040 --> 01:32:02,120 Speaker 5: have underestimated the extent to which real families could look 1634 01:32:02,160 --> 01:32:06,840 Speaker 5: at these allegations and say, this is me, twisted, distorted, 1635 01:32:07,000 --> 01:32:10,200 Speaker 5: used to hurt my family and other families like mine, 1636 01:32:10,439 --> 01:32:13,280 Speaker 5: and there's kind of no outrage about that. It's kind 1637 01:32:13,320 --> 01:32:15,439 Speaker 5: of this neglected backwater of this story. 1638 01:32:16,600 --> 01:32:18,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean, I mean, the thing it reminds 1639 01:32:18,240 --> 01:32:21,400 Speaker 2: me the most of is the is the original like 1640 01:32:21,520 --> 01:32:25,160 Speaker 2: vaccines cause autism story where you have someone who is 1641 01:32:25,200 --> 01:32:30,320 Speaker 2: incredibly politically motivated, who is incredibly unreliable, who's demonishrably unreliable, 1642 01:32:30,320 --> 01:32:32,800 Speaker 2: who is not someone who's you know, who's someone who 1643 01:32:32,920 --> 01:32:35,200 Speaker 2: in the field. Everyone's like, what is going on here. 1644 01:32:35,200 --> 01:32:38,040 Speaker 2: This is complete nonsense who like misrepresents and just straight 1645 01:32:38,080 --> 01:32:42,000 Speaker 2: up lies about about like about about their patients. And 1646 01:32:42,040 --> 01:32:45,599 Speaker 2: then also it turns out like has abused their patients 1647 01:32:45,640 --> 01:32:47,280 Speaker 2: or in this case is not has abuse of patients 1648 01:32:47,320 --> 01:32:51,439 Speaker 2: in this case case like has successfully like stopped parents 1649 01:32:51,439 --> 01:32:53,800 Speaker 2: from being able to talk to the clinic about what 1650 01:32:53,840 --> 01:32:56,800 Speaker 2: the options for their kids are. But the media sort 1651 01:32:56,840 --> 01:33:00,160 Speaker 2: of doesn't care about that all. All they all they 1652 01:33:00,200 --> 01:33:02,519 Speaker 2: see is sort of this story and they they just 1653 01:33:02,520 --> 01:33:04,599 Speaker 2: sort of latch onto it, and then they spread all 1654 01:33:04,640 --> 01:33:06,839 Speaker 2: of this stuff and it's like, you know, it reminds 1655 01:33:06,920 --> 01:33:08,760 Speaker 2: it reminds me a lot of that where like, wait, 1656 01:33:08,920 --> 01:33:11,600 Speaker 2: we're still dealing with the consequences of just the completely 1657 01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:16,080 Speaker 2: fake bullshit about like vaccism, vaccines supposedly causing autism, which 1658 01:33:18,120 --> 01:33:20,360 Speaker 2: and again like that that's stuffing that never that never 1659 01:33:20,439 --> 01:33:23,120 Speaker 2: would have gotten mainstreamed if the media hadn't picked it 1660 01:33:23,200 --> 01:33:25,200 Speaker 2: up and ran with it. And yet you know, every 1661 01:33:25,240 --> 01:33:28,519 Speaker 2: single time one of these absolute like politically motivated frauds, 1662 01:33:29,400 --> 01:33:31,720 Speaker 2: it gets up on the stands, like there there's the 1663 01:33:31,760 --> 01:33:34,360 Speaker 2: New York Times doing doing their article about it, and 1664 01:33:34,720 --> 01:33:35,360 Speaker 2: and like. 1665 01:33:35,680 --> 01:33:38,200 Speaker 9: This used to be like Glenn Beck's territory, who would 1666 01:33:38,240 --> 01:33:40,800 Speaker 9: like bring out like a chalkboard and make like a 1667 01:33:40,960 --> 01:33:45,599 Speaker 9: make like a crazy wall with yarn and string. And 1668 01:33:45,680 --> 01:33:48,479 Speaker 9: now it's it actually has been relegated to the New 1669 01:33:48,520 --> 01:33:51,040 Speaker 9: York Times, the sort of the sort of coverage that 1670 01:33:51,120 --> 01:33:54,799 Speaker 9: they're doing over these types of like moral panics around healthcare. 1671 01:33:55,520 --> 01:33:58,320 Speaker 9: I think if you look at like Fox News twenty 1672 01:33:58,400 --> 01:34:01,559 Speaker 9: years ago, this was the type of stuff that they 1673 01:34:01,560 --> 01:34:04,280 Speaker 9: did for a long time before it was actually a 1674 01:34:04,320 --> 01:34:06,960 Speaker 9: little bit too insane and they had to like fire 1675 01:34:06,960 --> 01:34:07,519 Speaker 9: Glenn Beck. 1676 01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:09,880 Speaker 3: And it's this. 1677 01:34:09,960 --> 01:34:12,720 Speaker 9: It's the same sort of stuff now that's propagated by 1678 01:34:12,760 --> 01:34:15,120 Speaker 9: people like The Daily Wire and then picked up on 1679 01:34:15,280 --> 01:34:17,440 Speaker 9: by even more kind of mainstream publications. 1680 01:34:18,400 --> 01:34:22,200 Speaker 5: I mean, I think what's so insidious about this story 1681 01:34:22,200 --> 01:34:24,479 Speaker 5: in particular and some of the other New York Times 1682 01:34:24,479 --> 01:34:28,120 Speaker 5: stories is that they represent this as being their deep 1683 01:34:28,160 --> 01:34:31,439 Speaker 5: investigative journalism. They represent this as being the finest that 1684 01:34:31,520 --> 01:34:35,200 Speaker 5: the Times produces. And here is you know, the mother 1685 01:34:35,240 --> 01:34:38,040 Speaker 5: of a trans girl who went to the reporter and said, 1686 01:34:38,439 --> 01:34:40,559 Speaker 5: I can prove to you I have medical records, I 1687 01:34:40,600 --> 01:34:43,760 Speaker 5: have emails to prove to you that what is in 1688 01:34:43,800 --> 01:34:47,960 Speaker 5: this allegation is about my family. And isn't true. The 1689 01:34:48,040 --> 01:34:50,880 Speaker 5: reporter takes that and kind of sticks it in at 1690 01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:53,439 Speaker 5: the end, you know, like that it's not lying, but 1691 01:34:53,520 --> 01:34:57,400 Speaker 5: it is so totally distorting the truth that it feels 1692 01:34:57,439 --> 01:34:59,320 Speaker 5: like lying. It feels worse than lying almost. 1693 01:34:59,360 --> 01:35:02,240 Speaker 9: Yeah, especially because there's like like thousands of people who 1694 01:35:02,280 --> 01:35:04,160 Speaker 9: will just read the headline. They're not going to scroll 1695 01:35:04,200 --> 01:35:06,400 Speaker 9: to the bottom of the thing and read a little disclaimer, 1696 01:35:06,479 --> 01:35:07,599 Speaker 9: being like haha, JK. 1697 01:35:08,320 --> 01:35:13,280 Speaker 2: If there's a line on everything, that's not good enough. Yeah, 1698 01:35:13,280 --> 01:35:15,439 Speaker 2: And I think this gets into the part they So 1699 01:35:15,640 --> 01:35:19,400 Speaker 2: you very recently talked to uh, the mother of one 1700 01:35:19,439 --> 01:35:21,559 Speaker 2: of the girls who was you know who who to 1701 01:35:21,800 --> 01:35:23,760 Speaker 2: read has been lying about and. 1702 01:35:25,439 --> 01:35:28,800 Speaker 5: To three of the parents who who a zine had 1703 01:35:28,800 --> 01:35:29,080 Speaker 5: talked to. 1704 01:35:30,280 --> 01:35:34,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you discovered some very disturbing and incredibly bizarre 1705 01:35:34,320 --> 01:35:39,520 Speaker 2: stuff that a zine was doing to get parents to 1706 01:35:39,760 --> 01:35:42,920 Speaker 2: stay in the story after reads and like this was 1707 01:35:42,960 --> 01:35:45,400 Speaker 2: in her follow up story, after a bunch of people 1708 01:35:45,400 --> 01:35:50,360 Speaker 2: came out and were like, hey, this is like not correct, 1709 01:35:50,560 --> 01:35:53,880 Speaker 2: this person has in fact been lying about this. Yeah, 1710 01:35:53,880 --> 01:35:56,679 Speaker 2: So could you could you go into what you found 1711 01:35:56,720 --> 01:35:57,120 Speaker 2: about this? 1712 01:35:57,720 --> 01:35:57,880 Speaker 3: Yeah? 1713 01:35:57,920 --> 01:36:01,880 Speaker 5: It was truly truly bizarre. I mean I going in 1714 01:36:02,320 --> 01:36:05,280 Speaker 5: there were some parents that contacted me because they'd spoken 1715 01:36:05,400 --> 01:36:08,920 Speaker 5: to a Zene Grashi and they were really upset about 1716 01:36:08,920 --> 01:36:11,799 Speaker 5: the story. And you know, I went into it thinking 1717 01:36:12,320 --> 01:36:13,960 Speaker 5: I'm going to do them a favor. I'm going to 1718 01:36:14,000 --> 01:36:16,559 Speaker 5: let them feel heard. They feel disappointed about the story. 1719 01:36:16,600 --> 01:36:19,640 Speaker 5: This kind of happens in journalism. I was not expecting 1720 01:36:20,400 --> 01:36:25,560 Speaker 5: what I got. So this parent had been very suspicious 1721 01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:30,479 Speaker 5: of a zine because of a zine's previous writing about 1722 01:36:30,479 --> 01:36:34,160 Speaker 5: trans issues, and so I think she and her family 1723 01:36:34,280 --> 01:36:37,160 Speaker 5: kind of were very cautious and very savvy, and they said, 1724 01:36:37,160 --> 01:36:38,920 Speaker 5: we don't want to be part of a story that's 1725 01:36:38,960 --> 01:36:41,719 Speaker 5: going to be negative on this clinic that we feel 1726 01:36:41,960 --> 01:36:45,160 Speaker 5: saved our daughter's life. So you know, I'm willing to 1727 01:36:45,160 --> 01:36:47,240 Speaker 5: talk to you, I'm willing to give you this information 1728 01:36:47,320 --> 01:36:49,960 Speaker 5: about this person who lied about our daughter's history, but 1729 01:36:50,000 --> 01:36:51,639 Speaker 5: if you're going to turn that into a hit piece 1730 01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:53,880 Speaker 5: on the clinic, we don't want to be part of it. 1731 01:36:54,520 --> 01:36:58,920 Speaker 5: And a Zene, you know, reassured her, calmed her fears, 1732 01:36:59,360 --> 01:37:02,400 Speaker 5: and so you know, they were going forward but cautiously. 1733 01:37:03,320 --> 01:37:06,960 Speaker 5: And then this mother sees a zine at a courthouse 1734 01:37:06,960 --> 01:37:11,200 Speaker 5: where Jamie Reid was testifying about the allegations in Missouri 1735 01:37:12,280 --> 01:37:17,639 Speaker 5: and just sees the warm relationship between a Zine and 1736 01:37:17,800 --> 01:37:22,120 Speaker 5: Jamie Reid, and she thinks something isn't right here. I 1737 01:37:22,320 --> 01:37:24,519 Speaker 5: helped her catch this person in a lie, but they're all, 1738 01:37:24,640 --> 01:37:28,880 Speaker 5: you know, buddy, buddy, that seems weird. So she, you know, 1739 01:37:28,920 --> 01:37:31,880 Speaker 5: she first went up to Jamie Reid and confronted her. 1740 01:37:31,920 --> 01:37:35,920 Speaker 5: She said, I'm liver toxicity mom, and you know, she 1741 01:37:35,960 --> 01:37:38,479 Speaker 5: again noticed that Jamie Reid is kind of saying how 1742 01:37:38,479 --> 01:37:40,040 Speaker 5: can I help you? What do you want and like 1743 01:37:40,080 --> 01:37:42,679 Speaker 5: looking to a zine like save me from this crazy person. 1744 01:37:43,600 --> 01:37:46,679 Speaker 5: And so that's when the mother said, we're out. We're 1745 01:37:46,720 --> 01:37:48,360 Speaker 5: not We're not going to be part of the story. 1746 01:37:48,880 --> 01:37:56,960 Speaker 5: And a Zene did not take that for a Yeah, 1747 01:37:57,360 --> 01:38:01,400 Speaker 5: it's nuts. She followed them to their car as they're 1748 01:38:01,439 --> 01:38:04,400 Speaker 5: trying to leave, She stood in the car door so 1749 01:38:04,400 --> 01:38:07,799 Speaker 5: they couldn't drive away, saying, you know, please keep talking, 1750 01:38:07,880 --> 01:38:10,800 Speaker 5: to keep talking. You know, I don't know exactly what 1751 01:38:10,800 --> 01:38:12,559 Speaker 5: she's saying, but like I need you in the story. 1752 01:38:13,240 --> 01:38:16,720 Speaker 5: And you know, the mom says like no, Azine, we're out. 1753 01:38:17,000 --> 01:38:19,559 Speaker 5: Could please step away from the car and they drove away, 1754 01:38:19,680 --> 01:38:23,160 Speaker 5: and then Azine called them and called them, and they 1755 01:38:23,200 --> 01:38:25,760 Speaker 5: picked up and A zine managed to convince them to 1756 01:38:25,880 --> 01:38:28,240 Speaker 5: let her come over to their hotel room. This is 1757 01:38:28,960 --> 01:38:33,120 Speaker 5: the night before the New York Times article published. And 1758 01:38:33,160 --> 01:38:37,479 Speaker 5: so now Heidi and her husband and Zene are in 1759 01:38:37,560 --> 01:38:40,479 Speaker 5: this hotel room and A zine is going paragraph by 1760 01:38:40,520 --> 01:38:43,360 Speaker 5: paragraph telling her everything that's in the story, trying to 1761 01:38:43,400 --> 01:38:45,639 Speaker 5: convince her that it's not a hit piece on the clinic, 1762 01:38:46,120 --> 01:38:48,040 Speaker 5: and the family isn't buying it at all. The family 1763 01:38:48,120 --> 01:38:50,360 Speaker 5: is like, no, you're describing a hit piece on the 1764 01:38:50,400 --> 01:38:55,599 Speaker 5: clinic where Yeah, But they're left with this horrible, horrible 1765 01:38:55,640 --> 01:38:59,080 Speaker 5: conundrum because if they actually pull out of the article, 1766 01:38:59,120 --> 01:39:01,920 Speaker 5: which as far as I can tell, they really did 1767 01:39:01,920 --> 01:39:04,120 Speaker 5: have this agreement. Again, azine wouldn't talk to me, so 1768 01:39:04,200 --> 01:39:06,720 Speaker 5: like it's a little unclear what the agreement was or 1769 01:39:07,320 --> 01:39:10,920 Speaker 5: exactly what's going on here. But in the end they decided, 1770 01:39:10,960 --> 01:39:13,479 Speaker 5: you know, there's no evidence that this woman lied if 1771 01:39:13,520 --> 01:39:15,320 Speaker 5: we pull out of the story. So they felt that 1772 01:39:15,360 --> 01:39:17,920 Speaker 5: they had kind of no choice. Even though they felt 1773 01:39:17,920 --> 01:39:21,200 Speaker 5: completely betrayed, completely devastated that their story was going to 1774 01:39:21,240 --> 01:39:23,360 Speaker 5: be used in this way, they felt they had no 1775 01:39:23,439 --> 01:39:24,280 Speaker 5: choice but to stay in. 1776 01:39:26,200 --> 01:39:28,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, And then like the and the way that like 1777 01:39:28,320 --> 01:39:31,400 Speaker 2: it ends the article like is is basically like the 1778 01:39:31,479 --> 01:39:34,719 Speaker 2: article is like completely supportive of Jamie Reid, even though 1779 01:39:34,720 --> 01:39:37,719 Speaker 2: again demolishably in the article she is lying. 1780 01:39:38,160 --> 01:39:40,880 Speaker 5: Such a weird article. You find someone's lying, but you're 1781 01:39:40,920 --> 01:39:43,800 Speaker 5: still spending all of your words saying, well, so she's 1782 01:39:43,800 --> 01:39:45,960 Speaker 5: sort she lied this one time, but she's basically credible. 1783 01:39:46,040 --> 01:39:46,680 Speaker 5: Just bizarre. 1784 01:39:47,400 --> 01:39:49,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you know, and the New York Times 1785 01:39:49,760 --> 01:39:51,759 Speaker 2: is response to this is like the piece you're referring 1786 01:39:51,800 --> 01:39:54,200 Speaker 2: to was rigorously a reporter and edited and thoughtful and 1787 01:39:54,240 --> 01:39:57,040 Speaker 2: sensitive to the moment. The time stands behind his publication. 1788 01:39:57,080 --> 01:39:59,439 Speaker 2: I'm reservedull It's like, well, yeah, of course, of course 1789 01:39:59,479 --> 01:40:02,280 Speaker 2: it meets the New York Times like incredibly demanding standards 1790 01:40:02,280 --> 01:40:05,280 Speaker 2: for journalism. These are the people who published like these 1791 01:40:05,280 --> 01:40:08,080 Speaker 2: are the people who published the yellow Cake Uranium story, 1792 01:40:08,640 --> 01:40:12,840 Speaker 2: like these people like these people have published things that 1793 01:40:13,280 --> 01:40:16,400 Speaker 2: like a a like these are these people have published 1794 01:40:16,479 --> 01:40:20,120 Speaker 2: off about the Iraq War that like British tabloids wouldn't publish. 1795 01:40:20,240 --> 01:40:23,120 Speaker 2: So like, yeah, it's it's not it's not I don't 1796 01:40:23,120 --> 01:40:26,479 Speaker 2: I don't think it's that surprising to me that, like 1797 01:40:26,520 --> 01:40:28,920 Speaker 2: the New York Times was like this passion editorial standards. 1798 01:40:28,920 --> 01:40:31,879 Speaker 2: But that's because again the New York Times backed Hitler 1799 01:40:32,360 --> 01:40:36,960 Speaker 2: and like deliberately good forth the entire country. You're starting 1800 01:40:37,000 --> 01:40:39,360 Speaker 2: a war by straight up lying about a bunch of 1801 01:40:39,520 --> 01:40:40,639 Speaker 2: stuff they knew was fake. 1802 01:40:41,280 --> 01:40:43,360 Speaker 5: Let me take a moment and say, there are a 1803 01:40:43,400 --> 01:40:45,439 Speaker 5: lot of reporters who work for the New York Times 1804 01:40:45,520 --> 01:40:49,400 Speaker 5: who do really great work, very very occasionally it's even 1805 01:40:49,400 --> 01:40:52,040 Speaker 5: about trans issues. But like it is certainly not a 1806 01:40:52,080 --> 01:40:57,200 Speaker 5: monolith of ridiculous nonsense. It's just all of the good 1807 01:40:57,200 --> 01:41:00,479 Speaker 5: work kind of camouflages the ridiculous nonsense. And them get 1808 01:41:00,520 --> 01:41:02,679 Speaker 5: it through when they when they go on a tear, 1809 01:41:02,720 --> 01:41:06,519 Speaker 5: when they go on a crusade against you know, against someone. 1810 01:41:08,120 --> 01:41:12,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean it's it's they. I don't know, 1811 01:41:12,920 --> 01:41:18,800 Speaker 2: New York Times. They they pick, they pick their moments 1812 01:41:18,840 --> 01:41:22,639 Speaker 2: to get incredibly ideological about this, and then they hide 1813 01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:25,880 Speaker 2: behind the more normal reporting they do in order to 1814 01:41:25,920 --> 01:41:29,080 Speaker 2: sort of like disguise the fact that again there's sort 1815 01:41:29,120 --> 01:41:32,840 Speaker 2: of this person knows that their sources lie is demonstrably 1816 01:41:32,960 --> 01:41:35,800 Speaker 2: lying to them. I just I don't know, it's it's 1817 01:41:36,640 --> 01:41:38,719 Speaker 2: the thing that was interesting to me about the story too, 1818 01:41:38,760 --> 01:41:41,240 Speaker 2: is that a zen as someone who up until this 1819 01:41:41,320 --> 01:41:44,799 Speaker 2: point like seems to it like like from from everything 1820 01:41:44,840 --> 01:41:48,840 Speaker 2: I had been aware of, A zine from. 1821 01:41:48,280 --> 01:41:51,880 Speaker 5: Asinine did really good me too, reporting, I believe. Yeah, 1822 01:41:52,120 --> 01:41:54,120 Speaker 5: the science astronomy. 1823 01:41:53,640 --> 01:41:57,679 Speaker 2: Community in astronomy, which I like. The thing I don't 1824 01:41:57,680 --> 01:42:00,280 Speaker 2: talk about enormously was that I did astronomy for a 1825 01:42:00,320 --> 01:42:02,920 Speaker 2: little bit. I didn't do very much astronomy, but there 1826 01:42:02,960 --> 01:42:04,680 Speaker 2: was a there was a small amount of time where 1827 01:42:04,680 --> 01:42:07,320 Speaker 2: I wanted to do astronomy, and so like I knew 1828 01:42:07,360 --> 01:42:09,920 Speaker 2: a bunch of the people like in that scene, as 1829 01:42:09,960 --> 01:42:12,519 Speaker 2: he had a very very good rep there, as like 1830 01:42:12,560 --> 01:42:16,439 Speaker 2: the person you could go to to talk about like 1831 01:42:16,439 --> 01:42:19,280 Speaker 2: like to do a B two story, which makes it 1832 01:42:19,360 --> 01:42:22,200 Speaker 2: even more weird that, you know, I guess this is 1833 01:42:22,360 --> 01:42:25,479 Speaker 2: just I don't know, I'm hesitant to just brush this 1834 01:42:25,520 --> 01:42:28,680 Speaker 2: off as sort of like trans brain, where like some 1835 01:42:28,880 --> 01:42:31,080 Speaker 2: like a sister reporter starts covering trans stuff and just 1836 01:42:31,080 --> 01:42:34,080 Speaker 2: completely loses their mind. But you know, it's it's a 1837 01:42:34,200 --> 01:42:39,679 Speaker 2: really startling and disturbing like shift from this person who 1838 01:42:39,840 --> 01:42:43,280 Speaker 2: had a very very good rep on yes, like as 1839 01:42:43,320 --> 01:42:46,280 Speaker 2: someone you could go to to like her standing in 1840 01:42:46,360 --> 01:42:49,280 Speaker 2: someone's car door trying to stop a family from driving 1841 01:42:49,320 --> 01:42:52,040 Speaker 2: away because they want because they don't want to be 1842 01:42:52,080 --> 01:42:54,439 Speaker 2: involved in a story where she's lying about them. 1843 01:42:54,560 --> 01:42:57,280 Speaker 9: Who who could have thought that a radical feminist could 1844 01:42:57,280 --> 01:43:04,080 Speaker 9: be trans exclusionary. It's just crazy people. 1845 01:43:05,040 --> 01:43:07,519 Speaker 5: People are complicated. It I think has to do with 1846 01:43:07,600 --> 01:43:11,320 Speaker 5: who she feels sympathy for, and women in science are 1847 01:43:11,360 --> 01:43:13,360 Speaker 5: maybe people that she feel sympathy for and who she 1848 01:43:14,400 --> 01:43:17,160 Speaker 5: or I have no idea what reason doesn't And like 1849 01:43:17,640 --> 01:43:20,679 Speaker 5: innocent parents of trans youth are apparently people she doesn't 1850 01:43:20,720 --> 01:43:23,000 Speaker 5: really have that empathy for, have. 1851 01:43:23,000 --> 01:43:25,560 Speaker 2: That ability to or the kids themselves apparently. 1852 01:43:27,960 --> 01:43:30,280 Speaker 5: I mean, as a transperson, I never expect a reporter. 1853 01:43:30,080 --> 01:43:31,519 Speaker 2: To have empathy for me. 1854 01:43:31,960 --> 01:43:36,240 Speaker 5: But these white parents, these middle class white parents, please, 1855 01:43:36,400 --> 01:43:38,040 Speaker 5: you must take them seriously. 1856 01:43:41,400 --> 01:43:43,320 Speaker 2: The other thing I think I wanted to talk about 1857 01:43:43,520 --> 01:43:47,760 Speaker 2: was the impact that this reporting has had on the 1858 01:43:47,800 --> 01:43:50,320 Speaker 2: broader So we we allude to this a little bit, 1859 01:43:50,520 --> 01:43:53,120 Speaker 2: but yeah, I wanted to talk a little bit about 1860 01:43:53,240 --> 01:43:57,040 Speaker 2: the way that right wing sort of right wing lawyers 1861 01:43:57,120 --> 01:44:01,639 Speaker 2: like right wing politicians have been using specifically this coverage 1862 01:44:02,120 --> 01:44:06,120 Speaker 2: and also sort of like the fear mongering around gender 1863 01:44:06,160 --> 01:44:09,560 Speaker 2: clinics as something they're using to support, like health to 1864 01:44:09,600 --> 01:44:11,960 Speaker 2: support healthcare bands, on trans youth. 1865 01:44:13,160 --> 01:44:18,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, Jamie Read's allegations directly resulted in a ban on 1866 01:44:18,320 --> 01:44:23,440 Speaker 5: gender affirming care in Missouri. You know, there were families 1867 01:44:23,520 --> 01:44:27,400 Speaker 5: that were going to the legislature week after week and 1868 01:44:27,479 --> 01:44:30,720 Speaker 5: we're keeping it at bay, and then these allegations came 1869 01:44:30,720 --> 01:44:34,599 Speaker 5: out and it fell apart and the care ban was passed. 1870 01:44:34,840 --> 01:44:39,120 Speaker 5: And you know, it would be bad enough if they 1871 01:44:39,120 --> 01:44:43,360 Speaker 5: found a bad clinic, but you know, there's nothing miraculous 1872 01:44:43,360 --> 01:44:46,800 Speaker 5: about doctors who treat trans people that makes them incapable 1873 01:44:47,080 --> 01:44:49,680 Speaker 5: of being an ethical you know, like it would have 1874 01:44:49,680 --> 01:44:51,519 Speaker 5: been devastating if it was the truth, but for it 1875 01:44:51,560 --> 01:44:54,200 Speaker 5: to have been, you know, all based on lies, is 1876 01:44:54,400 --> 01:44:55,639 Speaker 5: it's just a really tough blow. 1877 01:44:57,080 --> 01:44:59,439 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, like, you know, like I have friends there, 1878 01:44:59,680 --> 01:45:04,240 Speaker 2: and it's it's like it's bleak right now, and I 1879 01:45:04,640 --> 01:45:08,599 Speaker 2: think I've been really you know, I mean, I don't 1880 01:45:08,600 --> 01:45:10,920 Speaker 2: know why I would I expected these people to sort 1881 01:45:10,920 --> 01:45:14,760 Speaker 2: of like even remotely feel a single emotion about the 1882 01:45:14,760 --> 01:45:19,000 Speaker 2: fact that directly the stuff, the actions that they did 1883 01:45:19,080 --> 01:45:22,160 Speaker 2: led directly to a bunch of kids losing their health care. 1884 01:45:22,640 --> 01:45:25,679 Speaker 2: But you know, there's been no there's been no reckoning 1885 01:45:25,720 --> 01:45:28,320 Speaker 2: with this. Right as best I can tell neither the 1886 01:45:28,320 --> 01:45:30,840 Speaker 2: New York Times nor any of the journalists, involve, any 1887 01:45:30,840 --> 01:45:32,560 Speaker 2: of the editors, any publishers, none the people seem to 1888 01:45:32,600 --> 01:45:35,519 Speaker 2: care at all about the fact that they're about their 1889 01:45:35,560 --> 01:45:38,519 Speaker 2: work directly is leading to the suffering and possibly death 1890 01:45:38,520 --> 01:45:43,519 Speaker 2: of children. And I don't know, like I I this 1891 01:45:43,600 --> 01:45:47,040 Speaker 2: is one of those things where like either either something 1892 01:45:47,080 --> 01:45:50,680 Speaker 2: about this changes and you know, we get to a 1893 01:45:50,720 --> 01:45:52,920 Speaker 2: point where it's unacceptable to sort of do this kind 1894 01:45:52,920 --> 01:45:55,200 Speaker 2: of stuff, or we just you know, we wait for 1895 01:45:55,240 --> 01:45:58,759 Speaker 2: the next rounds of journalists to like find some absolute 1896 01:45:58,880 --> 01:46:02,120 Speaker 2: crank who they like dug out of some like Derain 1897 01:46:02,160 --> 01:46:06,160 Speaker 2: super Room MC mansions somewhere to like push push another 1898 01:46:06,200 --> 01:46:09,519 Speaker 2: one of these stories. Because right now, like this is 1899 01:46:09,600 --> 01:46:11,880 Speaker 2: this is disappears to just be an established path that 1900 01:46:11,960 --> 01:46:14,200 Speaker 2: you can use to sort of like you know, but 1901 01:46:14,360 --> 01:46:16,120 Speaker 2: from from both ends, right, the thing you can use 1902 01:46:16,160 --> 01:46:17,960 Speaker 2: the journalist's advantage career. It is the thing you can 1903 01:46:18,120 --> 01:46:20,680 Speaker 2: use as like a crank to be suddenly on the 1904 01:46:20,680 --> 01:46:22,240 Speaker 2: talk shows start going to get a bunch of money. 1905 01:46:22,240 --> 01:46:26,360 Speaker 2: It's just lying about all of this stuff, yep. 1906 01:46:26,479 --> 01:46:30,600 Speaker 5: And I mean, you know, you try to inject some accountability, 1907 01:46:30,640 --> 01:46:33,720 Speaker 5: but you can't make people listen. Yeah, this is what 1908 01:46:33,760 --> 01:46:36,680 Speaker 5: I do every day, and I'm going to keep doing it. 1909 01:46:37,000 --> 01:46:39,760 Speaker 5: But I'm under no illusions that since people are necessarily 1910 01:46:39,760 --> 01:46:43,479 Speaker 5: going to start listening, it's just you got to put 1911 01:46:43,520 --> 01:46:44,000 Speaker 5: it out there. 1912 01:46:45,360 --> 01:46:45,599 Speaker 10: Yeah. 1913 01:46:45,640 --> 01:46:47,240 Speaker 2: So, I guess two more things I wanted to ask 1914 01:46:47,280 --> 01:46:50,120 Speaker 2: about before we sort of wrap up. One is, Okay, so, 1915 01:46:50,720 --> 01:46:53,679 Speaker 2: on the off chance that there are SIS journalists listening 1916 01:46:53,720 --> 01:46:57,760 Speaker 2: to this, what kinds of things would you recommend to 1917 01:46:57,840 --> 01:47:01,559 Speaker 2: them to, like to to make sure you a don't 1918 01:47:01,600 --> 01:47:03,679 Speaker 2: fall down this rabbit hole, and b to make sure 1919 01:47:03,680 --> 01:47:05,960 Speaker 2: that if you are attempting to write a story that 1920 01:47:06,120 --> 01:47:08,400 Speaker 2: is good, that you get things right. 1921 01:47:09,439 --> 01:47:13,479 Speaker 5: Yeah. So, the trans Journalist Association recently published an updated 1922 01:47:13,520 --> 01:47:18,200 Speaker 5: style guide, which I would absolutely suggest people check out 1923 01:47:18,200 --> 01:47:21,040 Speaker 5: because it's much more in depth than anything that I 1924 01:47:21,080 --> 01:47:26,400 Speaker 5: can say. But I think that the biggest pitfall people 1925 01:47:26,479 --> 01:47:31,240 Speaker 5: have is thinking that they understand more than they do so, 1926 01:47:32,720 --> 01:47:37,200 Speaker 5: and I think that the kind of connected pitfall is 1927 01:47:37,200 --> 01:47:39,720 Speaker 5: is just a wow, there's smoke, there's fire, like, well, 1928 01:47:39,760 --> 01:47:44,200 Speaker 5: there must be more to the skeptical side than there 1929 01:47:44,240 --> 01:47:48,000 Speaker 5: really is. So while I, you know, always try to 1930 01:47:48,280 --> 01:47:50,519 Speaker 5: butter journalists up by saying you can make up your 1931 01:47:50,560 --> 01:47:53,120 Speaker 5: own mind and you know, look at the evidence. Like, 1932 01:47:53,280 --> 01:47:56,519 Speaker 5: really engage with trans people who are not just telling 1933 01:47:56,560 --> 01:48:01,680 Speaker 5: their stories, but who are science porters themselves, like myself. 1934 01:48:02,080 --> 01:48:05,080 Speaker 5: Really engage with experts who are not trans, but who 1935 01:48:05,240 --> 01:48:08,679 Speaker 5: understand this medical information and are representatives of a mainstream 1936 01:48:08,680 --> 01:48:13,320 Speaker 5: medical consensus, and really try to, you know, understand that 1937 01:48:13,360 --> 01:48:15,439 Speaker 5: the experts are experts for a reason, and the mainstream 1938 01:48:15,479 --> 01:48:17,840 Speaker 5: consensus is a mainstream consensus for a reason. And don't 1939 01:48:17,840 --> 01:48:21,080 Speaker 5: be so quick to just assume that a bunch of 1940 01:48:21,080 --> 01:48:24,559 Speaker 5: activists and cranks know something that everyone else is trying 1941 01:48:24,560 --> 01:48:27,200 Speaker 5: to keep from you, because that is a conspiratorial mindset 1942 01:48:27,280 --> 01:48:30,760 Speaker 5: that is below you as a mainstream cisgender journalist, and 1943 01:48:30,800 --> 01:48:34,080 Speaker 5: that you wouldn't be falling into with you know, masks 1944 01:48:34,360 --> 01:48:37,679 Speaker 5: or anti vacs or whatever. And it's just because trans 1945 01:48:37,720 --> 01:48:40,040 Speaker 5: people are marginalized that I think people are kind of 1946 01:48:40,040 --> 01:48:41,559 Speaker 5: falling for this crap and getting rolled. 1947 01:48:42,360 --> 01:48:44,679 Speaker 9: You are not a conspiratorial thing. 1948 01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:46,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and this is this is something, This is 1949 01:48:46,600 --> 01:48:49,400 Speaker 2: some thing I'm going to talk about at length more 1950 01:48:49,760 --> 01:48:54,599 Speaker 2: in one day. The like sixty five thousand word thing 1951 01:48:54,640 --> 01:48:56,760 Speaker 2: that I've been writing about, the lab leak stuff is 1952 01:48:56,800 --> 01:48:59,479 Speaker 2: going to come out and you know, one of the 1953 01:49:00,120 --> 01:49:05,160 Speaker 2: god I have spent so many hours talking to epidemiologists. 1954 01:49:05,200 --> 01:49:07,880 Speaker 2: You have no idea, but one of the things that 1955 01:49:07,920 --> 01:49:09,479 Speaker 2: you know comes up there, and it comes up also 1956 01:49:09,600 --> 01:49:13,400 Speaker 2: just in general science, conspiratism is if someone like people 1957 01:49:13,479 --> 01:49:19,000 Speaker 2: who actually do normal science do not start yelling about 1958 01:49:19,000 --> 01:49:22,840 Speaker 2: how they're being censored by the scientific establishment and like 1959 01:49:23,000 --> 01:49:25,400 Speaker 2: there's a giant conspiracy to stop them from talking about 1960 01:49:25,400 --> 01:49:29,880 Speaker 2: their work, even people who legitimately are being like actually 1961 01:49:29,880 --> 01:49:32,519 Speaker 2: screwed over by scientific establishment, right, people who have been abused, 1962 01:49:32,520 --> 01:49:35,519 Speaker 2: people you know, like people of color, people from marginalized backgrounds, 1963 01:49:35,520 --> 01:49:38,000 Speaker 2: who like like, I know these people, right, I grew 1964 01:49:38,040 --> 01:49:39,920 Speaker 2: up with a bunch of these people. They don't talk 1965 01:49:40,120 --> 01:49:43,720 Speaker 2: like this about that. The only people who talk like 1966 01:49:43,760 --> 01:49:46,880 Speaker 2: this are absolute cranks. And it would be really great 1967 01:49:47,040 --> 01:49:55,800 Speaker 2: if journalists realized that actual scientists don't talk about science 1968 01:49:56,479 --> 01:49:59,520 Speaker 2: in a way where they're like, ah, the medical establishment 1969 01:49:59,560 --> 01:50:01,880 Speaker 2: is sensor me. I would I would love for that 1970 01:50:01,960 --> 01:50:02,400 Speaker 2: to happen. 1971 01:50:02,560 --> 01:50:03,400 Speaker 6: I don't know. 1972 01:50:03,439 --> 01:50:07,280 Speaker 2: I'm skeptical that it will happen because it's I mean, 1973 01:50:07,640 --> 01:50:08,519 Speaker 2: it's a great story. 1974 01:50:09,280 --> 01:50:11,760 Speaker 5: Everyone knows that there are times when the medical or 1975 01:50:11,760 --> 01:50:16,040 Speaker 5: when the medical or scientific establishment is wrong, You, as 1976 01:50:16,080 --> 01:50:18,679 Speaker 5: a lay journalist, are probably not going to be able 1977 01:50:18,680 --> 01:50:21,880 Speaker 5: to tell I am sorry which times those are so 1978 01:50:22,520 --> 01:50:28,000 Speaker 5: slow your role. Don't envision pulitzers and get grounded on 1979 01:50:28,640 --> 01:50:31,400 Speaker 5: you know what the basics are, instead of thinking that 1980 01:50:31,600 --> 01:50:34,080 Speaker 5: you kind of know better than the people who spend 1981 01:50:34,120 --> 01:50:38,800 Speaker 5: their lives researching. This is my entreaty to journalists who 1982 01:50:39,160 --> 01:50:41,599 Speaker 5: maybe don't realize how transphobia might be playing a role 1983 01:50:41,680 --> 01:50:43,280 Speaker 5: in there wanting to believe certain things. 1984 01:50:45,320 --> 01:50:47,280 Speaker 2: Yep, and I guess the last thing I wanted to 1985 01:50:47,320 --> 01:50:49,960 Speaker 2: ask you about. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about 1986 01:50:49,960 --> 01:50:52,559 Speaker 2: the trans Data Library because I'm very excited about this. 1987 01:50:52,560 --> 01:50:53,640 Speaker 2: This sounds rad. 1988 01:50:54,200 --> 01:50:58,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, So you know, a few months ago I started 1989 01:50:58,160 --> 01:51:02,360 Speaker 5: working and you know, with some other people in the 1990 01:51:02,400 --> 01:51:06,360 Speaker 5: trans community, most of whom are you know, staying anonymous 1991 01:51:07,000 --> 01:51:12,600 Speaker 5: on a resource to try and help people who you know, 1992 01:51:12,640 --> 01:51:14,920 Speaker 5: we've really envisioned people who are in good faith, but 1993 01:51:15,000 --> 01:51:16,840 Speaker 5: trans issues are not their main thing, you know what 1994 01:51:16,880 --> 01:51:20,720 Speaker 5: I mean? So like not somewhat not as Ingoatie, but 1995 01:51:20,760 --> 01:51:23,640 Speaker 5: maybe a Zingerashi of five years ago, you know what 1996 01:51:23,680 --> 01:51:26,000 Speaker 5: I mean, the person who's a journalist who wants to 1997 01:51:26,000 --> 01:51:28,840 Speaker 5: get the story right, but there's so much misinformation out there. 1998 01:51:28,880 --> 01:51:31,400 Speaker 5: There's so many groups with so many different names. They're 1999 01:51:31,520 --> 01:51:35,640 Speaker 5: very skilled sometimes as presenting themselves as you know, legitimate. 2000 01:51:37,400 --> 01:51:41,240 Speaker 5: So this is the trans Data Library upcoming hopefully by 2001 01:51:41,280 --> 01:51:44,240 Speaker 5: the end of the month, is going to be a 2002 01:51:44,360 --> 01:51:50,760 Speaker 5: kind of you know, Wikipedia for the user, not Wikipedia 2003 01:51:50,920 --> 01:51:53,840 Speaker 5: and not like edible by the community, because that's very 2004 01:51:53,960 --> 01:51:58,519 Speaker 5: bad idea for trans stuff. I mean, a resource on 2005 01:51:58,840 --> 01:52:01,880 Speaker 5: what are these groups, who are these activists, what have 2006 01:52:01,920 --> 01:52:03,760 Speaker 5: they done in the past. It is intended as a 2007 01:52:03,800 --> 01:52:07,720 Speaker 5: journalistic resource, not an activist resource, which just means, you know, 2008 01:52:07,840 --> 01:52:10,519 Speaker 5: if someone is there isn't anyone like this. But if 2009 01:52:10,520 --> 01:52:13,080 Speaker 5: someone is a Nobel Prize winning scientist, we're not going 2010 01:52:13,160 --> 01:52:14,559 Speaker 5: to pretend they didn't, you know what I mean. If 2011 01:52:14,560 --> 01:52:17,720 Speaker 5: someone has legitimate potentials, you will find that out. If 2012 01:52:17,720 --> 01:52:21,120 Speaker 5: someone has said things that are discrediting, you'll find that out. 2013 01:52:21,120 --> 01:52:23,200 Speaker 5: But it isn't just a list of the most discrediting 2014 01:52:23,240 --> 01:52:27,479 Speaker 5: things someone has said, and we are going to, you know, 2015 01:52:27,600 --> 01:52:31,880 Speaker 5: directly try to get this out to journalists, local journalists, 2016 01:52:31,960 --> 01:52:35,479 Speaker 5: particularly people again who have decent coverage, not people who 2017 01:52:35,479 --> 01:52:38,080 Speaker 5: are you know, already on a tear and to democratic 2018 01:52:38,120 --> 01:52:41,920 Speaker 5: politicians who similarly are you know, sympathetic but might need 2019 01:52:41,960 --> 01:52:48,720 Speaker 5: an extra source of information, and yeah, it is, it 2020 01:52:48,800 --> 01:52:51,320 Speaker 5: is coming. I want people to be aware of it 2021 01:52:51,400 --> 01:52:53,840 Speaker 5: so that they can start spreading it and sharing it 2022 01:52:53,880 --> 01:52:55,800 Speaker 5: when it does, so that we can hopefully try to, 2023 01:52:57,360 --> 01:52:59,840 Speaker 5: you know, just get some basic information into the hands 2024 01:52:59,880 --> 01:53:01,920 Speaker 5: of people who I think desperately need it. They may 2025 01:53:01,960 --> 01:53:05,080 Speaker 5: not know that they desperately need it, but desperately need 2026 01:53:05,120 --> 01:53:07,519 Speaker 5: basic information on some of these groups and some of 2027 01:53:07,560 --> 01:53:08,560 Speaker 5: these bad actors. 2028 01:53:09,160 --> 01:53:12,240 Speaker 2: I think that's definitely a good thing because there is 2029 01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:15,280 Speaker 2: a lot of information out there on the connections between 2030 01:53:15,880 --> 01:53:17,680 Speaker 2: you know, the sort of right wing grifters who come 2031 01:53:17,720 --> 01:53:20,400 Speaker 2: out of the woodworks talking about this stuff, and you know, 2032 01:53:21,400 --> 01:53:26,519 Speaker 2: they're they're they're they're they're sort of demonstrable links to 2033 01:53:27,280 --> 01:53:30,760 Speaker 2: far right extremist groups, to the Proud Boys, to you know, 2034 01:53:30,920 --> 01:53:36,360 Speaker 2: sort of right wing think tanks. But that's stuff that like, 2035 01:53:38,160 --> 01:53:41,439 Speaker 2: the the subset of trans people who spend their time 2036 01:53:41,600 --> 01:53:44,760 Speaker 2: doing this are all very well aware of, but the 2037 01:53:45,600 --> 01:53:49,080 Speaker 2: reporters who are sort of venturing into the space for 2038 01:53:49,120 --> 01:53:53,360 Speaker 2: the first time don't know about it all. And yeah, 2039 01:53:53,479 --> 01:53:56,040 Speaker 2: having having a thing we can put into their laps 2040 01:53:56,120 --> 01:54:00,439 Speaker 2: being like, hey, this is these are all the people 2041 01:54:00,479 --> 01:54:03,439 Speaker 2: who are like getting paid by the lines depending freedom 2042 01:54:04,680 --> 01:54:07,240 Speaker 2: yeah stuff, Yeah. 2043 01:54:07,160 --> 01:54:10,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's what I'm hoping to make. So the u 2044 01:54:10,640 --> 01:54:13,439 Speaker 5: RL is probably going to be trans Data Library dot org. 2045 01:54:13,640 --> 01:54:15,840 Speaker 5: It is a little broken right now. Go to a 2046 01:54:15,920 --> 01:54:20,200 Speaker 5: signedmedia dot org. You follow me, follow my Twitter, follow 2047 01:54:20,240 --> 01:54:23,040 Speaker 5: my project, and watch that space for the trans Data 2048 01:54:23,120 --> 01:54:26,240 Speaker 5: Library because I'm hoping it can do some good. 2049 01:54:28,040 --> 01:54:33,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm I'm I'm excited for it. And yeah, do 2050 01:54:33,280 --> 01:54:34,640 Speaker 2: you have anything else do you want to say before 2051 01:54:34,720 --> 01:54:35,240 Speaker 2: we close up? 2052 01:54:36,320 --> 01:54:38,000 Speaker 5: I think that's it for me. Thank you so much 2053 01:54:38,040 --> 01:54:41,200 Speaker 5: for having me on. This was really fun and uh. 2054 01:54:41,600 --> 01:54:44,960 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, thanks for coming and thanks thanks for reporting 2055 01:54:45,000 --> 01:54:47,880 Speaker 2: on the story, because lord knows, the rest of the 2056 01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:49,280 Speaker 2: media wasn't going to do it. 2057 01:54:50,480 --> 01:54:51,640 Speaker 5: That's why I started doing it. 2058 01:54:54,280 --> 01:54:55,760 Speaker 2: All right, this has been It can happen here. You 2059 01:54:55,800 --> 01:54:58,080 Speaker 2: can find us on Twitter, Instagram. It happened here, pods 2060 01:54:58,400 --> 01:55:02,640 Speaker 2: and yeah, go into the world and be better about 2061 01:55:02,720 --> 01:55:04,280 Speaker 2: this than The New York Times, which is not an 2062 01:55:04,400 --> 01:55:07,240 Speaker 2: enormously high bar, but it's a bar they consistently failed across. 2063 01:55:07,720 --> 01:55:12,360 Speaker 2: So you too could be superor have superior journalistic ethics. 2064 01:55:12,760 --> 01:55:13,520 Speaker 2: The New York Times. 2065 01:55:14,040 --> 01:55:15,560 Speaker 5: Ah, this is what I tell myself every day. 2066 01:55:32,080 --> 01:55:35,240 Speaker 1: Welcome everyone back to it could happen here a podcast 2067 01:55:35,440 --> 01:55:40,600 Speaker 1: about things falling apart, and sometimes stuff that's slightly less 2068 01:55:40,640 --> 01:55:43,840 Speaker 1: depressing than that, but not today. Today we're talking about 2069 01:55:44,280 --> 01:55:47,840 Speaker 1: the falling apart sort of thing, and are our you know, 2070 01:55:48,000 --> 01:55:50,600 Speaker 1: continuing coverage of what we like to call the crumbles. 2071 01:55:50,640 --> 01:55:54,320 Speaker 1: Here today leads us to a little state called New Mexico, 2072 01:55:54,440 --> 01:55:58,880 Speaker 1: and specifically a little city in New Mexico called Albuquerque. 2073 01:56:00,040 --> 01:56:03,880 Speaker 1: If you have been kind of casually skimming the news 2074 01:56:04,280 --> 01:56:07,000 Speaker 1: about the American Southwest, you might be aware that the 2075 01:56:07,160 --> 01:56:11,160 Speaker 1: governor of New Mexico has recently announced a ban on 2076 01:56:11,480 --> 01:56:17,280 Speaker 1: citizens carrying openly or concealed with a license, firearms within 2077 01:56:17,480 --> 01:56:21,920 Speaker 1: the county that contains Albuquerque. The justification for this is 2078 01:56:22,000 --> 01:56:26,040 Speaker 1: a recent surge in gun violence in the state, most 2079 01:56:26,080 --> 01:56:30,080 Speaker 1: of which is centered on Albuquerque. And this is there's 2080 01:56:30,120 --> 01:56:33,160 Speaker 1: a been a pretty over the last specifically the last year, 2081 01:56:34,000 --> 01:56:38,360 Speaker 1: a pretty dramatic increase in the number of shootings from 2082 01:56:38,440 --> 01:56:41,040 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one to twenty twenty two. The number of 2083 01:56:41,080 --> 01:56:45,000 Speaker 1: shootings in Albuquerque or murders, I should say, most of 2084 01:56:45,040 --> 01:56:48,040 Speaker 1: which are shootings, also about eighty four percent the number 2085 01:56:48,080 --> 01:56:50,800 Speaker 1: of murders in Albuquerque almost doubled. I think it's and 2086 01:56:50,880 --> 01:56:53,040 Speaker 1: I think still you know, it's gone down a little 2087 01:56:53,040 --> 01:56:55,880 Speaker 1: bit this year, but there's still about fifty percent higher 2088 01:56:56,440 --> 01:57:01,040 Speaker 1: than the normal rate. Now, as you might guess from 2089 01:57:01,120 --> 01:57:04,640 Speaker 1: the fact that you've probably watched Breaking Bad fifteen years 2090 01:57:04,680 --> 01:57:08,920 Speaker 1: ago or whatever, the drug trade, drug trafficking, drug deals 2091 01:57:08,920 --> 01:57:11,280 Speaker 1: gone bad have something to do with this. 2092 01:57:11,440 --> 01:57:12,400 Speaker 2: But I think this year. 2093 01:57:13,120 --> 01:57:16,400 Speaker 1: About seventeen something like that, seventeen twenty percent of the 2094 01:57:16,960 --> 01:57:20,320 Speaker 1: homicides in Albuquerque are drug related, but a much higher 2095 01:57:20,400 --> 01:57:24,560 Speaker 1: number above seventy percent. The police have given the kind 2096 01:57:24,560 --> 01:57:29,920 Speaker 1: of primary cause as individual disrespect. Now what does that mean, Well, 2097 01:57:30,000 --> 01:57:32,000 Speaker 1: it means kind of what you think of it. People 2098 01:57:32,160 --> 01:57:34,600 Speaker 1: getting into shit with each other and somebody pulls a gun. 2099 01:57:34,760 --> 01:57:34,880 Speaker 11: Right. 2100 01:57:35,760 --> 01:57:38,960 Speaker 1: A lot of these have been traffic related, and in fact, 2101 01:57:39,080 --> 01:57:43,720 Speaker 1: the shooting that kind of most directly inspired the governor's 2102 01:57:44,160 --> 01:57:49,360 Speaker 1: controversial legal measure was a road rage incident. About what 2103 01:57:49,560 --> 01:57:53,480 Speaker 1: was this, Yeah, on September ninth, I think it was. 2104 01:57:54,520 --> 01:57:56,880 Speaker 1: An eleven year old boy was shot and killed in 2105 01:57:56,960 --> 01:57:59,400 Speaker 1: a road rage incident as his family was leaving a 2106 01:57:59,480 --> 01:58:03,080 Speaker 1: minor league baseball game. It looks like his aunt cut 2107 01:58:03,160 --> 01:58:07,919 Speaker 1: off another driver. The driver followed them and fired seventeen 2108 01:58:07,960 --> 01:58:11,320 Speaker 1: shots into the car. The eleven year old boy was 2109 01:58:11,600 --> 01:58:15,600 Speaker 1: killed and his aunt is still in the hospital in 2110 01:58:15,680 --> 01:58:20,320 Speaker 1: the unstable condition at least last I checked after this shooting. 2111 01:58:20,520 --> 01:58:22,600 Speaker 1: And this is, by the way, you know, prior to this, 2112 01:58:22,720 --> 01:58:24,480 Speaker 1: there was another case where a little kid, I think 2113 01:58:24,480 --> 01:58:27,160 Speaker 1: a four year old was killed in another road rage 2114 01:58:27,280 --> 01:58:30,840 Speaker 1: shooting incident. We don't know who shot the kid in 2115 01:58:30,960 --> 01:58:32,880 Speaker 1: this instance. We don't know if it was a for example, 2116 01:58:32,920 --> 01:58:37,240 Speaker 1: a citizen legally carrying a firearm or somebody. Although in 2117 01:58:37,400 --> 01:58:40,880 Speaker 1: the state of New Mexico you are allowed to carry 2118 01:58:41,920 --> 01:58:44,840 Speaker 1: a loaded firearm in your vehicle. You're not allowed to 2119 01:58:44,880 --> 01:58:47,080 Speaker 1: walk around with it concealed without a license, but you're 2120 01:58:47,080 --> 01:58:49,600 Speaker 1: allowed to conceal it in your vehicle. The shooting that 2121 01:58:49,840 --> 01:58:52,840 Speaker 1: preceded this one, the road rage shooting, wasn't illegal shooting. 2122 01:58:52,880 --> 01:58:54,760 Speaker 1: It was because the guy was a drug dealer. He 2123 01:58:54,840 --> 01:58:57,600 Speaker 1: had illegal drugs on him, all that stuff. But yeah, 2124 01:58:57,640 --> 01:59:04,280 Speaker 1: it's messy. So really, in response to the governor's proclamation, 2125 01:59:05,160 --> 01:59:08,440 Speaker 1: there have been quite a bit of people have gotten angry, 2126 01:59:08,560 --> 01:59:12,400 Speaker 1: in part because the Supreme Court ruled fairly recently that 2127 01:59:12,640 --> 01:59:16,200 Speaker 1: you have a right to carry a concealed firearm. There 2128 01:59:16,240 --> 01:59:18,879 Speaker 1: are some barrier states can set up in terms of licensing, 2129 01:59:18,960 --> 01:59:21,560 Speaker 1: but you can't stop people from carrying, like you have 2130 01:59:21,720 --> 01:59:25,040 Speaker 1: to have a legal avenue for people to carry concealed firearms. 2131 01:59:25,080 --> 01:59:26,920 Speaker 1: That's something that the Supreme Court has said you have 2132 01:59:26,960 --> 01:59:29,720 Speaker 1: a right to do, and governors do not have the 2133 01:59:29,840 --> 01:59:34,040 Speaker 1: right to overrule that sort of thing on public health grounds. 2134 01:59:34,120 --> 01:59:37,560 Speaker 1: So this has become an increasingly contentious issue. We're going 2135 01:59:37,640 --> 01:59:39,160 Speaker 1: to talk about some of the things that have followed 2136 01:59:39,200 --> 01:59:41,200 Speaker 1: from this, but I want to bring on our source 2137 01:59:41,280 --> 01:59:44,520 Speaker 1: for the day, Lucas Herndon. Lucas is a New Mexico 2138 01:59:44,680 --> 01:59:49,200 Speaker 1: based activist, someone we've had on the show before as 2139 01:59:49,280 --> 01:59:50,600 Speaker 1: well as a gun owner. 2140 01:59:50,680 --> 01:59:54,560 Speaker 2: Lucas, Welcome to the program, Thanks Robert. Good to be back, 2141 01:59:55,000 --> 01:59:57,360 Speaker 2: sort of as always. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is 2142 01:59:57,400 --> 02:00:00,480 Speaker 2: a messy one. Yeah. 2143 02:00:00,800 --> 02:00:03,800 Speaker 11: So that was a good a good summary of of 2144 02:00:04,240 --> 02:00:10,960 Speaker 11: of what got us here this the the executive order 2145 02:00:11,280 --> 02:00:17,880 Speaker 11: was dropped Friday afternoon, and I immediately went to my 2146 02:00:17,920 --> 02:00:20,120 Speaker 11: work chat and said, hold on, y'all, this is going 2147 02:00:20,160 --> 02:00:23,440 Speaker 11: to be a wild weekend. And as you can imagine, 2148 02:00:23,480 --> 02:00:28,240 Speaker 11: it was. There has been incredible responses from sort of 2149 02:00:28,360 --> 02:00:33,680 Speaker 11: everybody on just sort of yeah, despite political ideologies. 2150 02:00:34,160 --> 02:00:38,360 Speaker 2: The responses have been swift and ranging in their. 2151 02:00:40,600 --> 02:00:41,080 Speaker 6: Loudness. 2152 02:00:41,200 --> 02:00:44,960 Speaker 11: Let's say, uh, and it's created uh yeah, national buzz. 2153 02:00:45,520 --> 02:00:48,320 Speaker 11: A number of right wing talking heads from the state 2154 02:00:48,440 --> 02:00:52,280 Speaker 11: have now you know, been brought into national talking spaces. 2155 02:00:53,240 --> 02:00:58,880 Speaker 11: We have seen the news bounce around the far right blogosphere. 2156 02:00:58,200 --> 02:00:59,280 Speaker 6: And you know, it's made it to. 2157 02:01:00,800 --> 02:01:02,960 Speaker 2: Alex Jones and that kind of ilk. 2158 02:01:03,960 --> 02:01:04,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. 2159 02:01:04,200 --> 02:01:06,200 Speaker 11: But then of course, you know, and so obviously there's 2160 02:01:06,280 --> 02:01:09,040 Speaker 11: there's that far end of the spectrum, and you know, 2161 02:01:09,120 --> 02:01:11,640 Speaker 11: then there's the response here in the state, which is 2162 02:01:12,120 --> 02:01:16,440 Speaker 11: you know, ranging from supportive, too indifferent, to angry. 2163 02:01:16,280 --> 02:01:18,200 Speaker 1: To all you know, all the different things you can 2164 02:01:18,240 --> 02:01:20,840 Speaker 1: think of. Yeah, one of the things people may be 2165 02:01:20,960 --> 02:01:22,560 Speaker 1: kind of confused about this. One of the things that's 2166 02:01:22,600 --> 02:01:25,120 Speaker 1: problematic about this is specifically the fact that it is 2167 02:01:25,720 --> 02:01:29,880 Speaker 1: restricting citizens who have concealed carry permits from continuing to 2168 02:01:29,960 --> 02:01:34,480 Speaker 1: carry in the county. States have a right to at 2169 02:01:34,600 --> 02:01:37,440 Speaker 1: least currently the Supreme Court has not you know, ruled 2170 02:01:37,640 --> 02:01:39,880 Speaker 1: counter to that. Currently have a right to restrict people 2171 02:01:39,880 --> 02:01:42,320 Speaker 1: from open carrying, and you have a right to restrict 2172 02:01:42,360 --> 02:01:45,600 Speaker 1: people from doing stuff like have unlicensed carrying a handgun 2173 02:01:45,640 --> 02:01:48,240 Speaker 1: in your car. Right in the state of Oregon, for example, 2174 02:01:48,360 --> 02:01:51,120 Speaker 1: you cannot carry a loaded weapon in your vehicle without 2175 02:01:51,120 --> 02:01:54,080 Speaker 1: a concealed carry permit. As far as I'm aware, there's 2176 02:01:54,120 --> 02:01:56,560 Speaker 1: not been any sort of constitutional challenge to that. There 2177 02:01:56,640 --> 02:01:59,880 Speaker 1: may be in the future, but the Supreme Court, you know, 2178 02:02:00,080 --> 02:02:04,400 Speaker 1: has ruled very differently on the issue of concealed firearms, 2179 02:02:04,520 --> 02:02:07,720 Speaker 1: and so that's a problem because, you know, regardless of 2180 02:02:07,800 --> 02:02:10,040 Speaker 1: what you think about how the law on concealed carry 2181 02:02:10,040 --> 02:02:15,680 Speaker 1: of firearms should be, the idea of a governor overturning 2182 02:02:15,960 --> 02:02:18,280 Speaker 1: a right like that, access to a right like that 2183 02:02:18,480 --> 02:02:21,600 Speaker 1: based on what they call the public health emergency is 2184 02:02:21,920 --> 02:02:24,480 Speaker 1: deeply concerning, you know, which is why you've had, you know, 2185 02:02:24,600 --> 02:02:27,240 Speaker 1: a surprising people come out against this, including David Hogg, 2186 02:02:27,280 --> 02:02:29,680 Speaker 1: who's one of the Parkland kids, and a gun control 2187 02:02:29,720 --> 02:02:33,040 Speaker 1: advocate who said, you know, the govenor simply doesn't have 2188 02:02:33,120 --> 02:02:34,680 Speaker 1: the right to do this, which is kind of more 2189 02:02:34,800 --> 02:02:35,680 Speaker 1: or less where I land. 2190 02:02:36,800 --> 02:02:39,960 Speaker 11: Yeah, and you know, and just to be clear, right, 2191 02:02:40,360 --> 02:02:43,600 Speaker 11: I'm not an attorney, but yeah, I am a gun 2192 02:02:43,680 --> 02:02:47,600 Speaker 11: owner and have exercised that right since I was legally 2193 02:02:47,640 --> 02:02:50,280 Speaker 11: allowed to do so. At eighteen, which was very long 2194 02:02:50,320 --> 02:02:53,440 Speaker 11: ago at this point. So, yeah, I've been I have 2195 02:02:53,560 --> 02:02:56,000 Speaker 11: been a New Mexico gun owner paying attention to things 2196 02:02:57,080 --> 02:02:59,960 Speaker 11: and how those laws affect me for quite a while. 2197 02:03:00,000 --> 02:03:00,160 Speaker 6: Well. 2198 02:03:01,960 --> 02:03:04,000 Speaker 11: One of the yeah, one of the interesting things about 2199 02:03:04,040 --> 02:03:07,080 Speaker 11: the executive order, and you sort of touched on it, 2200 02:03:07,600 --> 02:03:10,920 Speaker 11: is that the in in the in the order, it 2201 02:03:11,080 --> 02:03:17,280 Speaker 11: specifically limits having a firearm in your vehicle to traveling 2202 02:03:17,680 --> 02:03:21,760 Speaker 11: to any excluded place that she listed in the executive order. Right, 2203 02:03:21,800 --> 02:03:25,080 Speaker 11: So so there's there's a there's a ban on you know, 2204 02:03:25,240 --> 02:03:27,360 Speaker 11: carrying unless you're going to like X, Y or Z 2205 02:03:27,520 --> 02:03:31,640 Speaker 11: specific places, and that then is furthered that you can 2206 02:03:31,720 --> 02:03:34,240 Speaker 11: only have a firearm in your vehicle if you're traveling 2207 02:03:34,280 --> 02:03:38,160 Speaker 11: to one of the said places. So yeah, that's that 2208 02:03:38,440 --> 02:03:44,080 Speaker 11: is in direct contradiction to existing law because New Mexico, 2209 02:03:44,800 --> 02:03:49,160 Speaker 11: in ostensibly your home or your car is an extension 2210 02:03:49,200 --> 02:03:52,800 Speaker 11: of your home. You don't there is there There basically 2211 02:03:53,000 --> 02:03:56,680 Speaker 11: is no law about having a car firearm in your car, 2212 02:03:58,560 --> 02:04:01,480 Speaker 11: which has led to some weird things because so for instance, 2213 02:04:02,120 --> 02:04:04,680 Speaker 11: you can get a dui on a bicycle and so 2214 02:04:04,960 --> 02:04:07,200 Speaker 11: that law has actually been used that you can carry 2215 02:04:07,280 --> 02:04:10,680 Speaker 11: a concealed firearm like in a backpack on a bicycle, 2216 02:04:10,960 --> 02:04:12,840 Speaker 11: but the second you step off the bicycle, now you're 2217 02:04:12,880 --> 02:04:15,480 Speaker 11: in violation of the law unless you have a permit. So, 2218 02:04:15,720 --> 02:04:20,240 Speaker 11: you know, those specific pieces of gun law and her 2219 02:04:20,280 --> 02:04:24,800 Speaker 11: executive order, even in the state are at odds, let alone, 2220 02:04:24,920 --> 02:04:29,160 Speaker 11: whatever the maybe you know, the federal implications are yeah, 2221 02:04:29,520 --> 02:04:30,480 Speaker 11: and I. 2222 02:04:30,560 --> 02:04:31,560 Speaker 2: Think you know. 2223 02:04:32,200 --> 02:04:34,160 Speaker 1: One of the things that is kind of concerning about 2224 02:04:34,200 --> 02:04:37,520 Speaker 1: this to me is and that should be concerning about 2225 02:04:37,520 --> 02:04:41,360 Speaker 1: these people, is that I don't see how I can 2226 02:04:41,440 --> 02:04:45,000 Speaker 1: see an argument for saying we want to restrict the 2227 02:04:45,200 --> 02:04:48,800 Speaker 1: unlicensed carry of firearms in vehicles, right, because not a 2228 02:04:48,880 --> 02:04:52,000 Speaker 1: significant number of these shootings seem to have involved that. 2229 02:04:52,080 --> 02:04:54,400 Speaker 1: Although it is a little bit unclear. We don't know 2230 02:04:54,480 --> 02:04:57,520 Speaker 1: who carried out the most recent road raid shooting, so 2231 02:04:58,000 --> 02:04:59,760 Speaker 1: we don't know if that person was legally allowed to 2232 02:04:59,800 --> 02:05:01,800 Speaker 1: pass as a firearm. Right, we know that in at 2233 02:05:01,880 --> 02:05:04,000 Speaker 1: least one of the recent shootings that killed a kid, 2234 02:05:04,440 --> 02:05:07,720 Speaker 1: the person was, you know, had a dealing amount and 2235 02:05:08,000 --> 02:05:10,800 Speaker 1: what appeared to be a dealing like setup of you know, 2236 02:05:11,040 --> 02:05:14,640 Speaker 1: it was parceled out into baggies marijuana on him, which 2237 02:05:14,720 --> 02:05:16,800 Speaker 1: is illegal. I'm not making a moral statement about that 2238 02:05:16,880 --> 02:05:18,920 Speaker 1: I don't think it should be illegal to but it is, 2239 02:05:19,120 --> 02:05:21,400 Speaker 1: it is illegal, right Like, he was not carrying within 2240 02:05:21,440 --> 02:05:25,760 Speaker 1: the bounds of federal law. But restricting people from carrying 2241 02:05:25,840 --> 02:05:30,200 Speaker 1: licensed concealed handguns does not seem I mean, number one, 2242 02:05:30,280 --> 02:05:33,080 Speaker 1: I haven't seen evidence that like that's a major driver 2243 02:05:33,240 --> 02:05:37,520 Speaker 1: of gun violence. But number two, if a decent number 2244 02:05:37,560 --> 02:05:41,200 Speaker 1: of these shootings are people acting outside of the bounds 2245 02:05:41,240 --> 02:05:43,720 Speaker 1: of the law, which they appear to be, I don't 2246 02:05:43,760 --> 02:05:48,080 Speaker 1: see how restricting people from lawfully carrying a weapon is 2247 02:05:49,920 --> 02:05:53,160 Speaker 1: something that can that's going to make the problem better, 2248 02:05:53,240 --> 02:05:56,160 Speaker 1: right Like, it seems like you're kind of striking at 2249 02:05:56,240 --> 02:06:00,000 Speaker 1: this in an ineffective way that's going to galvanize resils 2250 02:06:00,000 --> 02:06:02,680 Speaker 1: distance to any kind of gun control, as opposed to 2251 02:06:03,480 --> 02:06:06,400 Speaker 1: going out with kind of a more limited and surgical 2252 02:06:06,560 --> 02:06:09,360 Speaker 1: approach to try and actually tackle the causes of the problem. 2253 02:06:10,080 --> 02:06:13,560 Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the reasons why 2254 02:06:14,520 --> 02:06:17,440 Speaker 11: being on your show to talk about this is worth 2255 02:06:17,680 --> 02:06:20,680 Speaker 11: thinking about. The last time I was on was, you know, 2256 02:06:20,760 --> 02:06:25,480 Speaker 11: earlier in the year when there we discovered that there 2257 02:06:25,560 --> 02:06:28,760 Speaker 11: was a GOP operative who had committed acts of violence 2258 02:06:29,240 --> 02:06:33,320 Speaker 11: in the form of shooting at Democrats elected Democrats up 2259 02:06:33,440 --> 02:06:37,560 Speaker 11: in the Bernoleo County area as an act of political 2260 02:06:37,640 --> 02:06:42,680 Speaker 11: violence and worth thinking about is that, you know, he 2261 02:06:43,080 --> 02:06:47,440 Speaker 11: was charged with firing a firing a firearm from a 2262 02:06:47,520 --> 02:06:49,240 Speaker 11: moving vehicle, which is a crime, like. 2263 02:06:49,280 --> 02:06:54,880 Speaker 1: It's a specific crime, which and also like very valid crime. 2264 02:06:54,920 --> 02:06:57,480 Speaker 2: You should not be you should never shoot from a 2265 02:06:57,560 --> 02:06:58,360 Speaker 2: moving vehicle. 2266 02:06:58,640 --> 02:07:03,840 Speaker 11: Like that's correct, that's press so the right, so we 2267 02:07:04,080 --> 02:07:08,040 Speaker 11: you know again yeah again not a lawyer, however, it 2268 02:07:08,240 --> 02:07:11,280 Speaker 11: seemed duplicative to have a law on the books that 2269 02:07:11,360 --> 02:07:13,280 Speaker 11: already there. 2270 02:07:13,480 --> 02:07:15,240 Speaker 2: It is a crime to fire your gun from a 2271 02:07:15,320 --> 02:07:17,000 Speaker 2: car already h. 2272 02:07:17,440 --> 02:07:21,040 Speaker 11: And people who have, people who have committed heinous acts 2273 02:07:21,120 --> 02:07:25,120 Speaker 11: of violence by violating that law could be and should 2274 02:07:25,160 --> 02:07:28,000 Speaker 11: be charged under that law. First of all, let me 2275 02:07:28,080 --> 02:07:30,080 Speaker 11: just say, like, if we believe in a car serial state, 2276 02:07:30,080 --> 02:07:32,960 Speaker 11: because that's a whole other moral question. However, if for 2277 02:07:33,080 --> 02:07:36,720 Speaker 11: the purposes of this conversation, however, if somebody is just 2278 02:07:36,800 --> 02:07:38,640 Speaker 11: driving down the street and has a gun in their car, 2279 02:07:39,000 --> 02:07:41,560 Speaker 11: does that create you know, are they are you know, 2280 02:07:41,640 --> 02:07:47,040 Speaker 11: are they committing a crime that feels conflicting and harmful? 2281 02:07:48,160 --> 02:07:52,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's you know, as you there's a couple 2282 02:07:52,880 --> 02:07:55,520 Speaker 1: of things we should talk about here. I think one 2283 02:07:55,600 --> 02:07:57,680 Speaker 1: of them is what I what I consider to be 2284 02:07:57,840 --> 02:08:01,400 Speaker 1: a kind of a dishonest anti gun control argument that 2285 02:08:01,480 --> 02:08:03,400 Speaker 1: comes out from time to time, which is the idea 2286 02:08:03,920 --> 02:08:07,880 Speaker 1: that you shouldn't restrict access. You can't restrict access to 2287 02:08:07,960 --> 02:08:11,520 Speaker 1: firearms because criminals won't obey those laws. It's true, criminals 2288 02:08:11,560 --> 02:08:14,200 Speaker 1: don't obey like people who are committing gun crimes, are 2289 02:08:14,280 --> 02:08:17,520 Speaker 1: not obeying the law by definition the people who are 2290 02:08:17,560 --> 02:08:23,640 Speaker 1: committing gun crimes. But increased availability access to firearms makes 2291 02:08:23,720 --> 02:08:25,720 Speaker 1: it easier for people who are going to be bad 2292 02:08:25,800 --> 02:08:28,800 Speaker 1: actors to acquire firearms. Right regardless of what you think 2293 02:08:28,880 --> 02:08:31,680 Speaker 1: the legal remedy to that situation is, that is a 2294 02:08:32,400 --> 02:08:36,160 Speaker 1: pretty undeniable situation. I consider this to be quite different, 2295 02:08:36,200 --> 02:08:38,000 Speaker 1: because what you are saying in this instance is we 2296 02:08:38,080 --> 02:08:41,960 Speaker 1: are restricting We have people who are not acting legally 2297 02:08:42,080 --> 02:08:44,600 Speaker 1: with firearms they already own, So we are going to 2298 02:08:44,960 --> 02:08:47,760 Speaker 1: restrict people who are acting within the bounds of the 2299 02:08:47,880 --> 02:08:51,040 Speaker 1: law with firearms they own from behaving in a certain way, 2300 02:08:51,800 --> 02:08:53,640 Speaker 1: which I have a serious issue with. But I do 2301 02:08:53,720 --> 02:08:56,280 Speaker 1: think that there is a difference between those two kind 2302 02:08:56,320 --> 02:09:00,680 Speaker 1: of situations on a pretty fundamental level. I would agree 2303 02:09:00,920 --> 02:09:06,560 Speaker 1: and and and the disingenuous, knee jerk response from the 2304 02:09:06,640 --> 02:09:11,920 Speaker 1: far right over this, while completely expected, that's exactly what 2305 02:09:12,080 --> 02:09:14,800 Speaker 1: you know, that's exactly what they're doing, right, They're equating 2306 02:09:15,640 --> 02:09:20,320 Speaker 1: this ill informed, uh poorly worded however you want to say, 2307 02:09:20,760 --> 02:09:23,760 Speaker 1: they're they're they're taking this thing and using it as 2308 02:09:23,840 --> 02:09:29,400 Speaker 1: a pretense for all their uh far right propaganda extremes, 2309 02:09:30,240 --> 02:09:33,160 Speaker 1: you know, calling to impeach the governor because she's you know, 2310 02:09:33,360 --> 02:09:36,240 Speaker 1: intending to violate the constitution or some silliness like that, 2311 02:09:37,560 --> 02:09:41,160 Speaker 1: which is yeah, which is just yeah, it's that's just 2312 02:09:41,840 --> 02:09:46,000 Speaker 1: far right conspiracy mastormation, in my opinion, and it has 2313 02:09:46,160 --> 02:09:50,040 Speaker 1: galvanized them. Right, there's been an open carry protests already, 2314 02:09:50,800 --> 02:09:53,960 Speaker 1: and the sheriff saying or one of the sheriffs in 2315 02:09:54,000 --> 02:09:56,360 Speaker 1: the area saying like, I'm not going to we will 2316 02:09:56,440 --> 02:09:57,920 Speaker 1: not be enforcing this law. 2317 02:09:58,600 --> 02:10:00,960 Speaker 11: Well and and yeah, and I think that that's actually 2318 02:10:01,000 --> 02:10:05,000 Speaker 11: maybe something that for this podcast and for for your audience, 2319 02:10:05,200 --> 02:10:08,840 Speaker 11: for those longtime listeners who who followed this show, that 2320 02:10:09,160 --> 02:10:11,919 Speaker 11: to me is actually one of the most maybe interesting 2321 02:10:12,120 --> 02:10:16,400 Speaker 11: and like crumbles oriented parts of this Yes, yes, absolutely, yeah, 2322 02:10:17,240 --> 02:10:21,080 Speaker 11: so yeah. So yesterday the berno Leo County sheriff, who 2323 02:10:21,800 --> 02:10:24,800 Speaker 11: is an elected official and it is his county that 2324 02:10:24,920 --> 02:10:29,000 Speaker 11: the that this executive order effects, came out and said 2325 02:10:29,000 --> 02:10:32,440 Speaker 11: that he would not enforce it. He said that the 2326 02:10:33,440 --> 02:10:35,880 Speaker 11: uh he'd got he'd barely gotten a heads up from 2327 02:10:35,960 --> 02:10:38,800 Speaker 11: the governor, but he did admit that. You know, she 2328 02:10:39,320 --> 02:10:41,200 Speaker 11: she sort of like reached out to him, said hey, 2329 02:10:41,240 --> 02:10:43,000 Speaker 11: I'm gonna do this thing. I know you probably won't agree, 2330 02:10:43,040 --> 02:10:45,080 Speaker 11: and he's like, yeah, I don't agree, and she's like, okay, 2331 02:10:45,160 --> 02:10:46,440 Speaker 11: well we'll figure it out. 2332 02:10:46,520 --> 02:10:52,000 Speaker 2: And he was like, okay, I guess we will anyway. Uh. Yeah, 2333 02:10:52,080 --> 02:10:54,320 Speaker 2: So this he came out, made this announcement he's not 2334 02:10:54,360 --> 02:10:58,920 Speaker 2: going to enforce it. The the chief of police from 2335 02:10:59,000 --> 02:11:03,360 Speaker 2: the Albuquerque depart has more or less made the same intonation, 2336 02:11:04,160 --> 02:11:09,760 Speaker 2: with support from the very progressive Democratic mayor of Albuquerque, 2337 02:11:10,120 --> 02:11:13,320 Speaker 2: who hasn't necessarily outright said he disagrees, but has said 2338 02:11:13,360 --> 02:11:16,560 Speaker 2: that he's more concerned about his officer's safety. And that 2339 02:11:16,680 --> 02:11:19,520 Speaker 2: brings up an interesting point that like, oh yes, like 2340 02:11:19,840 --> 02:11:22,760 Speaker 2: like cops trying to enforce this law like that sounds 2341 02:11:22,840 --> 02:11:25,200 Speaker 2: like a recipe for disaster, which is which is why 2342 02:11:25,360 --> 02:11:29,600 Speaker 2: you didn't see any cops enforcing the the order at 2343 02:11:29,640 --> 02:11:33,840 Speaker 2: the protest on Sunday. Yeah, and it is one of 2344 02:11:33,920 --> 02:11:37,880 Speaker 2: those like why why would you write like that's such 2345 02:11:37,960 --> 02:11:38,560 Speaker 2: a yeah. 2346 02:11:39,200 --> 02:11:39,400 Speaker 6: Yeah. 2347 02:11:39,800 --> 02:11:42,040 Speaker 11: So the most recent thing this afternoon is that the 2348 02:11:42,840 --> 02:11:46,920 Speaker 11: the state's attorney attorney general, whose whose job it is 2349 02:11:47,080 --> 02:11:50,800 Speaker 11: to defend the state or you know, officers of the state, 2350 02:11:51,680 --> 02:11:55,440 Speaker 11: has announced that he will not defend the governor in 2351 02:11:55,560 --> 02:11:59,640 Speaker 11: his official capacity from the three current lawsuits that have 2352 02:11:59,680 --> 02:12:04,920 Speaker 11: all right been filed since Friday. So so yeah, there 2353 02:12:05,080 --> 02:12:08,720 Speaker 11: there basically seems to be this complete lack of support 2354 02:12:08,920 --> 02:12:13,000 Speaker 11: from the from the parts of government that are supposed 2355 02:12:13,040 --> 02:12:18,120 Speaker 11: to do the things you know, yeah, absolutely, and and 2356 02:12:18,480 --> 02:12:21,480 Speaker 11: you know, it begs the yeah, it for those of 2357 02:12:21,600 --> 02:12:25,960 Speaker 11: us that think about these things, it begs the question of, yeah, 2358 02:12:26,040 --> 02:12:28,640 Speaker 11: how far does this go? What is the next you 2359 02:12:28,720 --> 02:12:33,080 Speaker 11: know thing that a sitting governor attempts to pass using 2360 02:12:33,280 --> 02:12:36,440 Speaker 11: administrative power and then isn't enforced, And what does that mean? 2361 02:12:36,520 --> 02:12:38,880 Speaker 11: And how do we care about this one but not 2362 02:12:39,040 --> 02:12:41,480 Speaker 11: other things or you know whatever? So those are those 2363 02:12:41,520 --> 02:12:44,000 Speaker 11: are the questions that that we're all asking ourselves here 2364 02:12:44,080 --> 02:12:47,000 Speaker 11: in New Mexico, And as somebody who works in this 2365 02:12:47,160 --> 02:12:49,680 Speaker 11: field professionally, like we've spent a lot of time in 2366 02:12:49,720 --> 02:12:52,360 Speaker 11: the last forty eight hours, like asking ourselves those questions. 2367 02:12:52,920 --> 02:12:55,000 Speaker 2: It's tough, it's there, there is a there isn't an 2368 02:12:55,040 --> 02:12:55,920 Speaker 2: easy answer. 2369 02:12:55,720 --> 02:12:56,160 Speaker 5: On this one. 2370 02:12:57,280 --> 02:12:59,400 Speaker 1: And this is something by the way, that is I 2371 02:12:59,440 --> 02:13:03,400 Speaker 1: think pretty directly relevant to everybody listening because one of 2372 02:13:03,560 --> 02:13:07,320 Speaker 1: the stories probably under reported stories. We've talked about it 2373 02:13:07,360 --> 02:13:09,720 Speaker 1: from time to time here, you know, it was something 2374 02:13:09,760 --> 02:13:12,680 Speaker 1: that kind of was in the DNA of the original 2375 02:13:12,920 --> 02:13:15,240 Speaker 1: you know, run of it could happen here, but probably 2376 02:13:15,360 --> 02:13:17,240 Speaker 1: we could stand to talk about it a lot more. 2377 02:13:17,440 --> 02:13:20,960 Speaker 1: Is the rise of the most common term these guys 2378 02:13:21,040 --> 02:13:23,760 Speaker 1: use for themselves as constitutional sheriffs, right, And there is 2379 02:13:23,840 --> 02:13:26,280 Speaker 1: this this is a long standing belief on the far right. 2380 02:13:26,360 --> 02:13:28,920 Speaker 1: It comes out of really the seventies and eighties is 2381 02:13:28,960 --> 02:13:31,320 Speaker 1: when a lot of this stuff started cooking. But this 2382 02:13:31,640 --> 02:13:35,880 Speaker 1: belief that has kind of formed over you know, particularly 2383 02:13:36,000 --> 02:13:40,640 Speaker 1: the last twenty years, that the sheriff constitutionally is the 2384 02:13:40,760 --> 02:13:45,560 Speaker 1: highest law of the land, basically, right. And so you 2385 02:13:45,680 --> 02:13:49,800 Speaker 1: can have sheriffs who refuse to particularly and this is 2386 02:13:49,800 --> 02:13:52,360 Speaker 1: where it comes in most often refuse to enforce gun 2387 02:13:52,760 --> 02:13:57,800 Speaker 1: control laws, right. And this has sort of you've got 2388 02:13:57,840 --> 02:13:59,120 Speaker 1: a lot, you know, a lot of some of this 2389 02:13:59,280 --> 02:14:01,320 Speaker 1: came got sort of like mixed in with a lot 2390 02:14:01,360 --> 02:14:05,520 Speaker 1: of the election bullshit on the right, where like you 2391 02:14:05,600 --> 02:14:08,320 Speaker 1: had a lot of sheriffs, you know, there was a 2392 02:14:08,360 --> 02:14:10,640 Speaker 1: lot of concern as to how they would respond to 2393 02:14:11,280 --> 02:14:15,080 Speaker 1: states and the federal government sort of enforcing, you know, 2394 02:14:16,920 --> 02:14:20,120 Speaker 1: or stopping, you know, the Trump administration from doing certain 2395 02:14:20,160 --> 02:14:22,200 Speaker 1: things around the counting of votes. You know, there was 2396 02:14:22,240 --> 02:14:24,600 Speaker 1: a lot of real concern about that. And I think 2397 02:14:24,640 --> 02:14:26,400 Speaker 1: this is something that is going to continue to be 2398 02:14:26,440 --> 02:14:27,720 Speaker 1: more and more of a problem because a lot of 2399 02:14:27,800 --> 02:14:32,280 Speaker 1: these sheriffs departments are completely out of fucking pocket, right 2400 02:14:32,400 --> 02:14:35,920 Speaker 1: these are. And by the way, with sheriff departments, not 2401 02:14:36,120 --> 02:14:40,000 Speaker 1: that being part of a police hierarchy in a traditional 2402 02:14:40,120 --> 02:14:45,000 Speaker 1: sense provides much restraint, But sheriffs are completely fucking out 2403 02:14:45,080 --> 02:14:47,640 Speaker 1: there right like they are there are not It does 2404 02:14:47,760 --> 02:14:49,960 Speaker 1: vary from state to state, but there's not any sort 2405 02:14:50,000 --> 02:14:52,800 Speaker 1: of like central requirement about like what it takes to 2406 02:14:52,920 --> 02:14:55,040 Speaker 1: be a sheriff or a sheriff's deputy. A lot of 2407 02:14:55,080 --> 02:14:57,800 Speaker 1: them are just dudes, right Like That's why you had 2408 02:14:58,280 --> 02:15:00,640 Speaker 1: it was either in New Mexico or Arizona, like a 2409 02:15:00,680 --> 02:15:04,160 Speaker 1: small sheriff's department basically selling to like celebrities. You can 2410 02:15:04,240 --> 02:15:07,040 Speaker 1: become a sheriff's deputy here like work a week and 2411 02:15:07,080 --> 02:15:08,920 Speaker 1: a year, and then you can carry a concealed handgun 2412 02:15:09,000 --> 02:15:12,960 Speaker 1: wherever because cops get that, right, you know, right right, yeah. 2413 02:15:13,600 --> 02:15:16,560 Speaker 11: Yeah, So I just want to be clear because what 2414 02:15:16,680 --> 02:15:19,440 Speaker 11: you're talking about and how it pertains to New Mexico 2415 02:15:20,320 --> 02:15:23,480 Speaker 11: is both one hundred percent correct and has and has 2416 02:15:23,640 --> 02:15:29,120 Speaker 11: and has happened here, it could happen here is But 2417 02:15:29,240 --> 02:15:32,920 Speaker 11: in the case of this issue right now, bring up yeah, yeah, 2418 02:15:33,000 --> 02:15:35,760 Speaker 11: bernal Leo County sheriff took office this year. 2419 02:15:36,080 --> 02:15:38,840 Speaker 2: He is a Democrat. He's a man of color. 2420 02:15:39,440 --> 02:15:39,920 Speaker 3: Uh not. 2421 02:15:40,440 --> 02:15:43,040 Speaker 2: This is not me making excuses for cops, cuse, but 2422 02:15:43,240 --> 02:15:44,800 Speaker 2: I just to be clear about this. 2423 02:15:45,520 --> 02:15:49,280 Speaker 11: And he is generally disliked by the right and has 2424 02:15:49,360 --> 02:15:52,280 Speaker 11: been seen as you know whatever, soft on crime and stuff, 2425 02:15:52,280 --> 02:15:55,320 Speaker 11: which he hates and has tried. He's tried real hard 2426 02:15:55,360 --> 02:16:01,920 Speaker 11: to sort of buck that position, and and so and 2427 02:16:02,120 --> 02:16:05,120 Speaker 11: and that, which which makes this all the maybe worse 2428 02:16:05,320 --> 02:16:08,920 Speaker 11: right that that Yeah, yeah, a Democrat elected in a 2429 02:16:09,040 --> 02:16:13,560 Speaker 11: democratic county with a you know, the city, the state's 2430 02:16:13,640 --> 02:16:17,720 Speaker 11: largest democratic municipality, right, like, for that guy to be 2431 02:16:17,840 --> 02:16:19,800 Speaker 11: like yeah, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do this. 2432 02:16:20,680 --> 02:16:23,880 Speaker 11: And and I also there's something that needs to be 2433 02:16:23,960 --> 02:16:29,920 Speaker 11: said here. You you cited some great, well tragic statistics 2434 02:16:29,920 --> 02:16:34,840 Speaker 11: about my state and specifically about Albuquerque earlier, and and 2435 02:16:35,000 --> 02:16:38,400 Speaker 11: this is a public health crisis, right gotten by absolutely yeah. 2436 02:16:38,280 --> 02:16:38,640 Speaker 2: It's out. 2437 02:16:39,160 --> 02:16:42,720 Speaker 1: When you're seeing the number of homicides basically double, you 2438 02:16:42,800 --> 02:16:44,680 Speaker 1: know in the space of a fucking year, that that 2439 02:16:44,879 --> 02:16:47,439 Speaker 1: is a that's a crist Something needs to be done. 2440 02:16:47,360 --> 02:16:48,360 Speaker 2: Right, right right. 2441 02:16:48,879 --> 02:16:52,360 Speaker 11: And and so one of one of one of the 2442 02:16:52,440 --> 02:16:55,720 Speaker 11: big things that hasn't I don't think been said loud 2443 02:16:55,840 --> 02:17:00,520 Speaker 11: enough is that if if we you know, you know, 2444 02:17:01,080 --> 02:17:03,360 Speaker 11: if we all agree that it is a crisis, a 2445 02:17:03,640 --> 02:17:07,400 Speaker 11: thirty day ban is not gonna it's not going to 2446 02:17:07,480 --> 02:17:09,480 Speaker 11: do anything, and it's certainly not going to address the 2447 02:17:09,560 --> 02:17:14,560 Speaker 11: root causes. And I actually, very reluctantly have to hand 2448 02:17:14,600 --> 02:17:17,440 Speaker 11: it to the sheriff for his statements yesterday, because, as 2449 02:17:17,520 --> 02:17:21,920 Speaker 11: he put it, he has enough crime to deal with, 2450 02:17:22,560 --> 02:17:25,000 Speaker 11: He's got enough going on that his deputies have to 2451 02:17:25,320 --> 02:17:28,840 Speaker 11: have to deal with right now to then go and 2452 02:17:29,040 --> 02:17:33,400 Speaker 11: enforce this arbitrary rule or you know order. It's not 2453 02:17:33,480 --> 02:17:35,480 Speaker 11: a it's not a lot, it's but you know what 2454 02:17:35,560 --> 02:17:38,880 Speaker 11: I mean. So so that's another thing, right, like, this 2455 02:17:39,040 --> 02:17:42,120 Speaker 11: is your You're we're dealing with a public health crisis 2456 02:17:42,200 --> 02:17:45,480 Speaker 11: by putting the impetus on law enforcement, which is the 2457 02:17:45,520 --> 02:17:48,520 Speaker 11: whole problem with you know, the way that this country 2458 02:17:48,600 --> 02:17:53,400 Speaker 11: deals with you know, the quote unquote drug problem. And 2459 02:17:53,800 --> 02:17:56,600 Speaker 11: and let's be very clear here, when the governor issued 2460 02:17:56,640 --> 02:18:00,400 Speaker 11: her order on Friday, she issued two orders. One is 2461 02:18:00,520 --> 02:18:03,920 Speaker 11: called the one with the one with dealing with guns, 2462 02:18:04,400 --> 02:18:07,199 Speaker 11: is declaring state of Public Health Emergency due to gun violence. 2463 02:18:07,480 --> 02:18:10,000 Speaker 11: But at the same time, she issued one saying declaring 2464 02:18:10,040 --> 02:18:13,640 Speaker 11: State of Public Health Emergency due to drug abuse. And there, 2465 02:18:13,720 --> 02:18:17,280 Speaker 11: you know, for her, these things are related, and and 2466 02:18:17,400 --> 02:18:22,280 Speaker 11: she's you know, she's trying to time together. And I 2467 02:18:22,360 --> 02:18:26,080 Speaker 11: think we all know that given the last forty years 2468 02:18:26,120 --> 02:18:30,640 Speaker 11: of American history dealing with drugs via you know, law 2469 02:18:30,760 --> 02:18:34,560 Speaker 11: enforcement has not done anything to help the problem. And 2470 02:18:36,080 --> 02:18:39,240 Speaker 11: so that it just again, this is one of those 2471 02:18:39,240 --> 02:18:43,720 Speaker 11: things where it feels counterintuitive for a governor who you know, 2472 02:18:44,000 --> 02:18:48,600 Speaker 11: generally the Democrats of this state support, who has won 2473 02:18:48,640 --> 02:18:51,920 Speaker 11: by fairly large margins in both of her elections and 2474 02:18:52,200 --> 02:18:55,480 Speaker 11: and has a Democratic majority in her legislature. 2475 02:18:56,760 --> 02:19:02,240 Speaker 2: That for her then to issue this order and put 2476 02:19:02,400 --> 02:19:06,960 Speaker 2: more requirements on her law enforcement that she's expecting to 2477 02:19:07,160 --> 02:19:09,520 Speaker 2: you know, also then carry it just doesn't it doesn't 2478 02:19:09,520 --> 02:19:14,560 Speaker 2: make sense, right, And so that's where we're all scramblings. 2479 02:19:15,040 --> 02:19:17,520 Speaker 1: There's a couple of things that make this so dangerous. 2480 02:19:17,560 --> 02:19:21,080 Speaker 1: One is that it's this unnecessary own goal, right, you know, 2481 02:19:21,320 --> 02:19:23,720 Speaker 1: as you stated, this is not this and I didn't 2482 02:19:23,760 --> 02:19:25,760 Speaker 1: want to be sort of intimating that he was. That 2483 02:19:25,920 --> 02:19:30,360 Speaker 1: this sheriff is not particularly tied in directly to some 2484 02:19:30,480 --> 02:19:34,320 Speaker 1: of these longer standing weird constitutional sheriff things, but it 2485 02:19:34,440 --> 02:19:38,920 Speaker 1: does tie into this this pattern of sort of conservatives 2486 02:19:39,280 --> 02:19:44,520 Speaker 1: backing sheriffs against state power and against federal power that 2487 02:19:44,640 --> 02:19:47,240 Speaker 1: they dislike. And in this case, one of the things 2488 02:19:47,280 --> 02:19:49,400 Speaker 1: that makes this so toxic is they have a point, right, 2489 02:19:49,560 --> 02:19:54,240 Speaker 1: this order is not constitutional, and giving them ammunition like 2490 02:19:54,360 --> 02:19:58,800 Speaker 1: that is number one. It strengthens right wing organizing in 2491 02:19:58,920 --> 02:20:01,760 Speaker 1: a way that is you know, dangerous, but also it's 2492 02:20:01,879 --> 02:20:05,840 Speaker 1: completely unnecessary, It's completely it does not address the problem, 2493 02:20:05,920 --> 02:20:09,680 Speaker 1: and the problem is is very like, extremely serious, and 2494 02:20:09,760 --> 02:20:14,920 Speaker 1: so I find this kind of distracting from realistic solutions here, 2495 02:20:15,120 --> 02:20:17,840 Speaker 1: you know, which which by the way, can can you know, 2496 02:20:18,000 --> 02:20:23,480 Speaker 1: probably do to some extent involve restricting you know, uh 2497 02:20:23,879 --> 02:20:27,400 Speaker 1: certain the ability of people to carry in certain situations, 2498 02:20:27,480 --> 02:20:29,440 Speaker 1: to carry in certain ways in certain situations. 2499 02:20:29,520 --> 02:20:32,320 Speaker 11: I think one of the yeah, oh yeah, no, no, 2500 02:20:32,520 --> 02:20:34,600 Speaker 11: you have well I was just gonna I just want to, 2501 02:20:34,680 --> 02:20:37,560 Speaker 11: you know, for for folks interested in, you know, what 2502 02:20:37,760 --> 02:20:40,960 Speaker 11: New Mexico has done. Things that have happened in the 2503 02:20:41,440 --> 02:20:44,920 Speaker 11: under this administration, are there are There have been some 2504 02:20:45,120 --> 02:20:48,640 Speaker 11: advancements that as a gun owner I support. One was 2505 02:20:48,760 --> 02:20:52,280 Speaker 11: closing private sales as a thing. You know, I grew 2506 02:20:52,400 --> 02:20:58,280 Speaker 11: up buying guns out of the backs of cars. Uh wild, 2507 02:20:58,480 --> 02:21:01,000 Speaker 11: I have some wild stories about that, but that was 2508 02:21:01,040 --> 02:21:03,080 Speaker 11: a fully legal thing to do. We had private sales 2509 02:21:03,240 --> 02:21:05,160 Speaker 11: in this in the state. I've bought a lot of 2510 02:21:05,280 --> 02:21:05,840 Speaker 11: car guns. 2511 02:21:06,640 --> 02:21:10,160 Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, And it is fun, but we should probably 2512 02:21:10,920 --> 02:21:16,840 Speaker 12: probably that's not probably should be probably probably and and 2513 02:21:17,440 --> 02:21:21,320 Speaker 12: and especially for those of us that don't have anything 2514 02:21:21,480 --> 02:21:24,840 Speaker 12: restricting us from by purchasing firearms, there's no reason to 2515 02:21:24,959 --> 02:21:25,720 Speaker 12: not just anyway. 2516 02:21:26,400 --> 02:21:28,600 Speaker 11: So so that being said, so the New Mexico did 2517 02:21:28,879 --> 02:21:32,480 Speaker 11: did end private sales, So that's one thing, and then 2518 02:21:32,560 --> 02:21:37,480 Speaker 11: this last year we instituted It's not a full safe 2519 02:21:37,520 --> 02:21:41,000 Speaker 11: storage law, but it goes a long way into instituting 2520 02:21:41,040 --> 02:21:45,640 Speaker 11: a safe storage law. It specifically creates a situation where 2521 02:21:45,879 --> 02:21:49,440 Speaker 11: if a minor gets access to a gun that was 2522 02:21:49,480 --> 02:21:51,600 Speaker 11: not secured and then commits a crime with it, then 2523 02:21:51,840 --> 02:21:54,400 Speaker 11: the per the owner of that firearm, is then held liable. 2524 02:21:55,600 --> 02:21:59,520 Speaker 11: And it has been used now twice and two fairly 2525 02:21:59,600 --> 02:22:03,640 Speaker 11: high pro file tragic shootings in the state. I should 2526 02:22:03,680 --> 02:22:06,480 Speaker 11: note here a decent number of the recent spike and 2527 02:22:06,560 --> 02:22:11,440 Speaker 11: homicides have been children getting access to firearm zoned by adults, 2528 02:22:11,879 --> 02:22:16,760 Speaker 11: either accidentally or purposefully using them to shoot and kill people. Right, yeah, 2529 02:22:16,800 --> 02:22:19,400 Speaker 11: so as you yeah, the law, the laws. The law 2530 02:22:19,480 --> 02:22:22,600 Speaker 11: is called the Benny Hargrove Act, which was named in 2531 02:22:23,040 --> 02:22:25,039 Speaker 11: honor of a of a young man who was killed 2532 02:22:25,080 --> 02:22:27,720 Speaker 11: at a middle school by a fellow middle schooler with 2533 02:22:27,840 --> 02:22:29,560 Speaker 11: a gun that the guy got off of. You know 2534 02:22:29,680 --> 02:22:31,440 Speaker 11: that the kid got out of a you know, a 2535 02:22:31,520 --> 02:22:35,640 Speaker 11: bedside drawer. And uh yeah, And as again, as a 2536 02:22:35,720 --> 02:22:38,920 Speaker 11: firearm owner, like I'm sitting across from my safe right now, 2537 02:22:39,080 --> 02:22:43,280 Speaker 11: I keep my guns locked up. So there are there 2538 02:22:43,360 --> 02:22:47,040 Speaker 11: are practical solutions here, yes, And and I know that 2539 02:22:47,160 --> 02:22:49,400 Speaker 11: this country has a hard time talking about guns without 2540 02:22:49,440 --> 02:22:53,320 Speaker 11: it getting out of pocket very quickly. But there are 2541 02:22:53,480 --> 02:22:57,680 Speaker 11: practical solutions we have. You know, one of the interesting 2542 02:22:57,760 --> 02:23:02,040 Speaker 11: responses from Democratic lawmakers in the state over the last 2543 02:23:02,200 --> 02:23:05,520 Speaker 11: you know, three days has been a call for a 2544 02:23:05,560 --> 02:23:08,320 Speaker 11: special session of our legislature to discuss what some of 2545 02:23:08,360 --> 02:23:11,160 Speaker 11: those things might be. The trouble with that is that 2546 02:23:11,440 --> 02:23:13,760 Speaker 11: in everybody's got this like knee jerk thing and everybody 2547 02:23:13,840 --> 02:23:16,560 Speaker 11: wants to talk about crime. I'm using big air quotes 2548 02:23:16,600 --> 02:23:22,680 Speaker 11: crime and and which is in direct counter you know, 2549 02:23:22,800 --> 02:23:25,279 Speaker 11: counterance to the idea that this is a public health crisis. 2550 02:23:25,800 --> 02:23:28,600 Speaker 11: So you know, we have a lot of reservations about 2551 02:23:29,080 --> 02:23:31,680 Speaker 11: what what might come out of a session like that. 2552 02:23:32,920 --> 02:23:34,080 Speaker 11: We would have to do a lot of work to 2553 02:23:34,160 --> 02:23:38,000 Speaker 11: protect you know, some of the things we've we've you know, 2554 02:23:38,040 --> 02:23:42,360 Speaker 11: we've done a lot to protect people from the car 2555 02:23:42,480 --> 02:23:45,880 Speaker 11: cerial system in this state, which is hell a predatory, 2556 02:23:47,040 --> 02:23:49,000 Speaker 11: and so those are protections we want to keep, you know, 2557 02:23:49,120 --> 02:23:51,640 Speaker 11: keep in place. But it's easy for the right of 2558 02:23:51,720 --> 02:23:54,640 Speaker 11: course to blame like that's the reason, the reason, the 2559 02:23:54,720 --> 02:23:58,240 Speaker 11: reason why shootings have increased is because we let people 2560 02:23:58,680 --> 02:24:02,560 Speaker 11: who've been arrested for you know, petty theft or something 2561 02:24:02,640 --> 02:24:06,320 Speaker 11: out of out of jail, and for some reason that's 2562 02:24:06,440 --> 02:24:08,760 Speaker 11: why crime is up. I don't know, it doesn't make sense, 2563 02:24:08,800 --> 02:24:12,160 Speaker 11: but anyway, so you know, it's even even with the 2564 02:24:12,280 --> 02:24:16,760 Speaker 11: solutions come more problems. But but yeah, there does seem 2565 02:24:16,840 --> 02:24:21,680 Speaker 11: to be this the the unintended consequences of this order 2566 02:24:22,200 --> 02:24:25,600 Speaker 11: seem to be the not just the backlash, but then 2567 02:24:25,640 --> 02:24:28,720 Speaker 11: the sort of non support from folks who would otherwise 2568 02:24:28,760 --> 02:24:29,440 Speaker 11: be supporting her. 2569 02:24:29,600 --> 02:24:33,080 Speaker 1: So I kind of want to close probably by talking 2570 02:24:33,120 --> 02:24:34,840 Speaker 1: about and thank you for that, by the way, for 2571 02:24:34,920 --> 02:24:37,720 Speaker 1: that context for talking about what I think is the 2572 02:24:37,920 --> 02:24:40,960 Speaker 1: underlying A big part of the underlying cause you that 2573 02:24:41,080 --> 02:24:43,560 Speaker 1: is also a big part of a surge and violence 2574 02:24:43,600 --> 02:24:46,480 Speaker 1: in a number of states nationwide, which is that like 2575 02:24:47,720 --> 02:24:50,720 Speaker 1: people are a lot of a significant chunk of this 2576 02:24:50,879 --> 02:24:56,280 Speaker 1: country has become unhinged since COVID. I kind of suspect 2577 02:24:56,320 --> 02:24:57,840 Speaker 1: that has a lot to do with it. But you 2578 02:24:57,959 --> 02:25:01,119 Speaker 1: are seeing in a number of states a significant amount 2579 02:25:01,160 --> 02:25:07,440 Speaker 1: of like anti social violence, violence that occurs because somebody 2580 02:25:07,480 --> 02:25:10,320 Speaker 1: cuts somebody off in traffic, somebody gets into an argument 2581 02:25:10,440 --> 02:25:12,640 Speaker 1: at a store, you know, somebody gets into an argument 2582 02:25:12,720 --> 02:25:14,720 Speaker 1: at a parking lot. There have been a number of 2583 02:25:14,800 --> 02:25:17,720 Speaker 1: shootings as a result of this, it's happened. You know, 2584 02:25:17,959 --> 02:25:19,760 Speaker 1: this is a big part of the rise and gun 2585 02:25:19,840 --> 02:25:22,600 Speaker 1: violence in Texas, which is also tied I think, to 2586 02:25:22,680 --> 02:25:25,320 Speaker 1: permitless carry to an extent, but like it is broader 2587 02:25:25,360 --> 02:25:28,599 Speaker 1: than that too, Right, this is not purely a access 2588 02:25:28,720 --> 02:25:31,200 Speaker 1: to guns, is why a lot of these crimes involved guns. 2589 02:25:31,560 --> 02:25:35,959 Speaker 1: But there's just been this rise in anti social violence, 2590 02:25:36,040 --> 02:25:39,160 Speaker 1: a lot of which comes out of arguments or perceived 2591 02:25:39,240 --> 02:25:42,040 Speaker 1: disrespect between one person and a group of people or 2592 02:25:42,080 --> 02:25:45,720 Speaker 1: two people or whatever. And I think this is probably 2593 02:25:45,920 --> 02:25:48,320 Speaker 1: tied into with a lot of the you know, increase 2594 02:25:48,360 --> 02:25:50,560 Speaker 1: in political violence we've seen, because a decent amount of 2595 02:25:50,600 --> 02:25:52,960 Speaker 1: it does arise out of that. And this is part 2596 02:25:52,959 --> 02:25:55,200 Speaker 1: of what I think is kind of disheartening about the 2597 02:25:55,240 --> 02:25:57,520 Speaker 1: governor's response here, is that this is a very serious 2598 02:25:57,600 --> 02:26:02,280 Speaker 1: problem and the kind of knee jerk reactions don't help it. 2599 02:26:02,440 --> 02:26:06,280 Speaker 1: But also, like I don't know what does right. You 2600 02:26:06,360 --> 02:26:10,360 Speaker 1: can deal with aspects of this problem, Right, maybe if 2601 02:26:10,400 --> 02:26:12,720 Speaker 1: people aren't just able to throw a gun in their 2602 02:26:12,800 --> 02:26:16,080 Speaker 1: pants and legally be carrying, there will be less of 2603 02:26:16,160 --> 02:26:21,000 Speaker 1: these shootings, But that doesn't deal with all of the 2604 02:26:21,160 --> 02:26:26,200 Speaker 1: underlying problem. And I don't really know what does this 2605 02:26:26,400 --> 02:26:30,320 Speaker 1: kind of like increased willingness of Americans to resort to 2606 02:26:30,480 --> 02:26:34,000 Speaker 1: violence in interpersonal conflicts is a real issue. 2607 02:26:34,600 --> 02:26:36,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh man, you said enough. 2608 02:26:39,760 --> 02:26:44,160 Speaker 11: Yeah, I think that, you know, I'm thinking of I'm 2609 02:26:44,200 --> 02:26:47,920 Speaker 11: thinking about the first time I was able to go 2610 02:26:48,240 --> 02:26:53,760 Speaker 11: to a school function of my daughters after after COVID 2611 02:26:53,840 --> 02:26:58,080 Speaker 11: orders were lifted. And I remember I was was with 2612 02:26:58,160 --> 02:27:01,040 Speaker 11: a family member and they were, you know, they were 2613 02:27:01,440 --> 02:27:05,359 Speaker 11: the commenting on sort of people's bad behavior in the auditorium, 2614 02:27:06,200 --> 02:27:07,760 Speaker 11: and you know, and I had to remind them. I 2615 02:27:07,879 --> 02:27:13,240 Speaker 11: was like, you know, the these people have not been outside, yeah, 2616 02:27:14,320 --> 02:27:17,320 Speaker 11: in a year and a half, and you know, and 2617 02:27:17,560 --> 02:27:20,400 Speaker 11: like specifically, like some of these little kids that are 2618 02:27:20,440 --> 02:27:23,760 Speaker 11: running around, they maybe have never been to a function 2619 02:27:24,000 --> 02:27:26,080 Speaker 11: like this, you know what I mean. Like by the time, 2620 02:27:26,440 --> 02:27:28,200 Speaker 11: by the time most three or four year olds have 2621 02:27:28,600 --> 02:27:30,360 Speaker 11: are going to i don't know, like a baseball game 2622 02:27:30,480 --> 02:27:32,680 Speaker 11: or a band concert, you know, they've at some point 2623 02:27:32,720 --> 02:27:34,080 Speaker 11: it's the first time, but you know, they get used 2624 02:27:34,080 --> 02:27:36,160 Speaker 11: to it, they start to understand the rules of things. 2625 02:27:37,000 --> 02:27:39,120 Speaker 11: But yeah, like after you know, if you grow up 2626 02:27:39,200 --> 02:27:40,800 Speaker 11: and you're all of a sudden, you're five and you've 2627 02:27:40,840 --> 02:27:42,280 Speaker 11: never been to something like this like you don't know, 2628 02:27:42,320 --> 02:27:44,160 Speaker 11: you're supposed to sit down and be quiet, listen to 2629 02:27:44,240 --> 02:27:46,000 Speaker 11: the thing, right, like you're just just sitting on your 2630 02:27:46,040 --> 02:27:47,320 Speaker 11: phone anyway. 2631 02:27:47,640 --> 02:27:51,440 Speaker 2: So yeah, I definitely agree with you. I think in 2632 02:27:51,600 --> 02:27:53,640 Speaker 2: New Mexico we're not. 2633 02:27:53,760 --> 02:27:56,440 Speaker 11: Isolated from other states in the sense that we have 2634 02:27:56,720 --> 02:28:01,600 Speaker 11: arise in drug use and related We're not isolated in 2635 02:28:01,640 --> 02:28:03,360 Speaker 11: the sense we have a rise in you know, our 2636 02:28:03,400 --> 02:28:06,840 Speaker 11: houseless population, uh in in lack of job or at 2637 02:28:06,920 --> 02:28:11,320 Speaker 11: least good jobs, and and all of those things come 2638 02:28:11,360 --> 02:28:14,160 Speaker 11: together to make life hard, you know. And when life 2639 02:28:14,240 --> 02:28:17,560 Speaker 11: is hard, it it impacts people and they make, you know, 2640 02:28:17,680 --> 02:28:22,879 Speaker 11: bad decisions. The thing that I think does hurt New 2641 02:28:22,959 --> 02:28:26,280 Speaker 11: Mexico and and and is maybe what makes New Mexico 2642 02:28:26,920 --> 02:28:30,000 Speaker 11: unfortunately sort of stand out from some of its issues 2643 02:28:30,160 --> 02:28:33,480 Speaker 11: is you know, we are a very rural state. We 2644 02:28:33,560 --> 02:28:36,920 Speaker 11: have one fairly large city in Albuquerque, but even then, 2645 02:28:37,560 --> 02:28:39,760 Speaker 11: the surrounding parts of Albuquerque, just like the rest of 2646 02:28:39,840 --> 02:28:43,879 Speaker 11: the state, are very rural, and there's a certain amount 2647 02:28:44,080 --> 02:28:46,720 Speaker 11: of you know, we just as a state, we are 2648 02:28:46,800 --> 02:28:49,160 Speaker 11: lacking resources and always have you know, we rely so 2649 02:28:49,240 --> 02:28:53,800 Speaker 11: heavily on one industry and without without the systems in 2650 02:28:53,920 --> 02:28:57,600 Speaker 11: place to ensure that people have a place to live 2651 02:28:57,760 --> 02:29:00,400 Speaker 11: or you know, a meal to get ob to go 2652 02:29:00,560 --> 02:29:03,760 Speaker 11: to recreation, that they can afford things like that. 2653 02:29:03,959 --> 02:29:07,200 Speaker 2: I mean, it is tough. It is just tough out there. 2654 02:29:07,400 --> 02:29:10,560 Speaker 11: And I'm I'm privileged and I get to you know, 2655 02:29:10,760 --> 02:29:13,400 Speaker 11: I'm I'm raising my daughter in a home that you know, 2656 02:29:13,480 --> 02:29:17,720 Speaker 11: we want for very little. But I see it even 2657 02:29:17,800 --> 02:29:19,879 Speaker 11: in my in my peer group, I see people who 2658 02:29:19,879 --> 02:29:22,600 Speaker 11: are struggling all the time. And yeah, it's just tough 2659 02:29:22,640 --> 02:29:23,039 Speaker 11: out there, you. 2660 02:29:23,080 --> 02:29:26,040 Speaker 1: Know, it is, it is, And I honestly, you know, 2661 02:29:27,520 --> 02:29:30,040 Speaker 1: New Mexico and Oregon are similar in a lot of ways, 2662 02:29:30,160 --> 02:29:32,400 Speaker 1: and that they're both very low popular. I think we're 2663 02:29:32,440 --> 02:29:34,760 Speaker 1: both at around four million people if I'm not mistaken. 2664 02:29:35,120 --> 02:29:37,080 Speaker 2: Oh New Mexico is only like two million. Oh you're 2665 02:29:37,080 --> 02:29:37,560 Speaker 2: two millions. 2666 02:29:37,560 --> 02:29:40,360 Speaker 1: So yeah, even even less so low population states that 2667 02:29:40,520 --> 02:29:44,160 Speaker 1: have one big city that kind of dominates politics, but 2668 02:29:44,240 --> 02:29:46,400 Speaker 1: a very conservative kind of rural area in a lot 2669 02:29:46,400 --> 02:29:49,840 Speaker 1: of ways outside of that, and in both cases, that 2670 02:29:50,000 --> 02:29:53,880 Speaker 1: urban area has seen recent massive spikes in interpersonal violence 2671 02:29:54,040 --> 02:29:57,320 Speaker 1: and in you know, fatal issues due to drug use. 2672 02:29:57,440 --> 02:30:00,680 Speaker 1: Right yeah, now, one of the think obviously, one of 2673 02:30:00,680 --> 02:30:02,680 Speaker 1: the things Oregon has coming through it is because of 2674 02:30:02,760 --> 02:30:05,240 Speaker 1: all of the retire recent stuff here, like a much 2675 02:30:05,320 --> 02:30:09,080 Speaker 1: higher tax base, right, so there's theoretically more resources, although 2676 02:30:09,120 --> 02:30:11,800 Speaker 1: I tend to argue very incompetently applied, so most of 2677 02:30:11,879 --> 02:30:14,560 Speaker 1: us don't actually get out, but you do have this 2678 02:30:14,720 --> 02:30:17,039 Speaker 1: kind of this This is one of these places where 2679 02:30:17,080 --> 02:30:22,160 Speaker 1: this urban rural divide is both a lot stricter and 2680 02:30:22,360 --> 02:30:25,359 Speaker 1: where this state that is the majority of the population 2681 02:30:26,720 --> 02:30:29,879 Speaker 1: and is dealing with such severe issues is also kind 2682 02:30:29,920 --> 02:30:33,000 Speaker 1: of the political center or the city is also the 2683 02:30:33,040 --> 02:30:34,199 Speaker 1: political center of the state. 2684 02:30:34,920 --> 02:30:37,440 Speaker 11: Well, yeah, that and just yeah, you absolutely hit on 2685 02:30:37,520 --> 02:30:42,080 Speaker 11: something there. You know, Albuquerque has been historically, you know, 2686 02:30:42,280 --> 02:30:47,560 Speaker 11: decentralized due to gentrification for the last generation because of 2687 02:30:47,600 --> 02:30:50,400 Speaker 11: exactly what you said, which is that retirement community, you know, 2688 02:30:50,920 --> 02:30:54,119 Speaker 11: outside of oil and gas, and then the federal government 2689 02:30:54,240 --> 02:30:56,880 Speaker 11: in terms of like the labs and the universities and 2690 02:30:56,920 --> 02:31:01,640 Speaker 11: things like that, like retire ease are basically our third 2691 02:31:01,720 --> 02:31:06,400 Speaker 11: high miss genera you know, generative avenue agriculture probably in 2692 02:31:06,440 --> 02:31:07,880 Speaker 11: there too, but you know what, you get what I'm saying, 2693 02:31:07,879 --> 02:31:10,880 Speaker 11: they're a very high portion. And yeah, and and you 2694 02:31:10,959 --> 02:31:12,840 Speaker 11: know the Albuquerque that I grew up going to visit 2695 02:31:12,879 --> 02:31:16,320 Speaker 11: all of my family in and like going you know, 2696 02:31:16,400 --> 02:31:19,920 Speaker 11: going downtown, going you know, down to the International District, 2697 02:31:20,879 --> 02:31:24,840 Speaker 11: going near the university. You know, it never felt it 2698 02:31:24,959 --> 02:31:28,160 Speaker 11: never felt I hate to use the word dangerous, but 2699 02:31:28,200 --> 02:31:30,199 Speaker 11: it never felt dangerous, right, it never it never felt 2700 02:31:30,200 --> 02:31:32,800 Speaker 11: that way at all to me. Not that it does 2701 02:31:32,959 --> 02:31:36,039 Speaker 11: not that I feel danger to my to my person 2702 02:31:36,840 --> 02:31:40,680 Speaker 11: as a you know, as a white sis. He had 2703 02:31:40,760 --> 02:31:43,320 Speaker 11: dude with a beard like walking around like I usually 2704 02:31:43,400 --> 02:31:44,680 Speaker 11: feel pretty safe in my person. 2705 02:31:45,120 --> 02:31:46,760 Speaker 2: But yeah, I can't say that. 2706 02:31:46,840 --> 02:31:47,160 Speaker 3: I would. 2707 02:31:47,360 --> 02:31:49,520 Speaker 11: I have reflect that from everybody that I know that 2708 02:31:49,600 --> 02:31:51,880 Speaker 11: lives there. And people make choices about where they go, 2709 02:31:52,000 --> 02:31:54,040 Speaker 11: what time of day, et cetera, et cetera. And a 2710 02:31:54,120 --> 02:31:56,360 Speaker 11: big part of that is because of the gentrification that 2711 02:31:56,400 --> 02:32:01,320 Speaker 11: has pushed the the you know, native population of Albuquerque 2712 02:32:01,440 --> 02:32:04,600 Speaker 11: out into these more rural places. It makes it harder 2713 02:32:04,640 --> 02:32:07,840 Speaker 11: to get to you know, get to groceries, get to jobs, 2714 02:32:07,879 --> 02:32:11,360 Speaker 11: get to transportation. Yeah, all of those are factors in this. 2715 02:32:11,720 --> 02:32:14,000 Speaker 11: And it's and it's not just a one size fits 2716 02:32:14,000 --> 02:32:14,480 Speaker 11: all solution. 2717 02:32:15,040 --> 02:32:15,240 Speaker 10: Yep. 2718 02:32:16,720 --> 02:32:18,520 Speaker 2: Well, Lucas, is there anything else you wanted to get 2719 02:32:18,560 --> 02:32:19,039 Speaker 2: into today? 2720 02:32:19,600 --> 02:32:19,760 Speaker 5: Oh? 2721 02:32:19,879 --> 02:32:21,640 Speaker 11: I mean there's always something, but no, this was this 2722 02:32:21,800 --> 02:32:24,760 Speaker 11: was great, thank you. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you giving 2723 02:32:24,840 --> 02:32:27,840 Speaker 11: us the opportunity. It's you know, I'm a I'm a 2724 02:32:27,920 --> 02:32:31,400 Speaker 11: longtime listener of this show, and when this issue came up, 2725 02:32:31,680 --> 02:32:36,040 Speaker 11: I really was thinking about some of those topics you 2726 02:32:36,080 --> 02:32:38,280 Speaker 11: brought up, you know, way back in the first run 2727 02:32:38,360 --> 02:32:41,240 Speaker 11: of It could Happen Here, and thinking about the that 2728 02:32:41,440 --> 02:32:45,680 Speaker 11: conflict that exists between state entities and you know, passing 2729 02:32:45,760 --> 02:32:48,000 Speaker 11: laws and enforcing laws and who does that and who 2730 02:32:48,080 --> 02:32:49,560 Speaker 11: doesn't and what does it mean if they don't. 2731 02:32:50,160 --> 02:32:56,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So this will continue to be a topic of. 2732 02:32:58,400 --> 02:33:01,120 Speaker 1: Vibrant discussion. So I'm sure we'll well, we'll have you 2733 02:33:01,280 --> 02:33:02,560 Speaker 1: back in the very near future. 2734 02:33:03,760 --> 02:33:04,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, happy to come back for that. 2735 02:33:05,360 --> 02:33:05,560 Speaker 10: Yep. 2736 02:33:05,959 --> 02:33:09,400 Speaker 1: All right, everybody, this is the This has been an 2737 02:33:09,440 --> 02:33:12,320 Speaker 1: episode of It Could Happen Here? You know, go go, Yeah, Lucas, 2738 02:33:12,360 --> 02:33:14,080 Speaker 1: you have any pluggables to plug before we're all out 2739 02:33:14,120 --> 02:33:14,280 Speaker 1: of here? 2740 02:33:14,720 --> 02:33:16,760 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, sure me. If you are interested, I'm on 2741 02:33:16,800 --> 02:33:18,080 Speaker 2: Twitter at Lucas Herndon. 2742 02:33:18,320 --> 02:33:21,960 Speaker 11: And if you're curious about you know, New Mexico politics, 2743 02:33:22,320 --> 02:33:25,000 Speaker 11: progress now New Mexico on all the socials. 2744 02:33:25,800 --> 02:33:29,359 Speaker 1: Most excellent. All right, everybody, Uh, this has been an episode. 2745 02:33:29,560 --> 02:33:50,280 Speaker 2: Go home, Family, with. 2746 02:33:56,200 --> 02:34:01,119 Speaker 13: Hi everyone, It's me James, and I'm joined by and Robert. 2747 02:34:01,160 --> 02:34:02,880 Speaker 13: Today we're going to be talking about the border, which 2748 02:34:03,000 --> 02:34:05,320 Speaker 13: is where that audio you heard at the start was 2749 02:34:05,800 --> 02:34:07,080 Speaker 13: recorded yesterday. 2750 02:34:07,959 --> 02:34:12,880 Speaker 2: Hi Sheren and Robert, Hi James. Hello James, thank you, Robert, 2751 02:34:13,160 --> 02:34:15,600 Speaker 2: Thank you Serene. It's lovely to have this for one 2752 02:34:15,680 --> 02:34:16,480 Speaker 2: introduction time. 2753 02:34:17,720 --> 02:34:17,959 Speaker 4: Okay. 2754 02:34:18,080 --> 02:34:20,039 Speaker 13: So yeah, we're gathered here to go to talk about 2755 02:34:20,040 --> 02:34:23,160 Speaker 13: the border. And the reason we are talking about the 2756 02:34:23,200 --> 02:34:26,640 Speaker 13: border is because border patrol are doing their thing, the 2757 02:34:26,760 --> 02:34:29,280 Speaker 13: thing that they like to do tiemingly like on a 2758 02:34:29,360 --> 02:34:33,119 Speaker 13: quarterly basis actually exactly three months after the last time, 2759 02:34:33,520 --> 02:34:36,480 Speaker 13: which is to hold people out in the open in 2760 02:34:36,560 --> 02:34:40,920 Speaker 13: between the two board defenses in Santi Seddo, just about 2761 02:34:40,959 --> 02:34:45,480 Speaker 13: fifteen minutes south of where I live. It's probably worth 2762 02:34:46,320 --> 02:34:50,080 Speaker 13: grounding this discussion in the various claims and counterclaims. So 2763 02:34:50,120 --> 02:34:53,360 Speaker 13: there are about two hundred people in between the two 2764 02:34:53,400 --> 02:34:56,760 Speaker 13: border defenses right now. People I spoke to were from Azerbijan, 2765 02:34:57,080 --> 02:35:02,920 Speaker 13: Turkmenistan and Zbekistan, Turkey, Vietnam, Hondoors, Guatemala. 2766 02:35:03,080 --> 02:35:06,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, the reason that sometimes. 2767 02:35:05,680 --> 02:35:07,800 Speaker 13: These lists of people sound like, you know, you're singing 2768 02:35:07,920 --> 02:35:11,640 Speaker 13: Washington bullets is because these are all countries that we 2769 02:35:11,879 --> 02:35:15,440 Speaker 13: have destabilized in one way or another, saying we qua 2770 02:35:15,800 --> 02:35:18,800 Speaker 13: the United States, not we as call zone media, we 2771 02:35:18,920 --> 02:35:20,720 Speaker 13: were spirectually stabilized regimes. 2772 02:35:21,920 --> 02:35:26,480 Speaker 2: We've only destabilized two or three countries. Yeah, and we're 2773 02:35:26,480 --> 02:35:27,920 Speaker 2: proud of it. Yeah we don't. 2774 02:35:28,120 --> 02:35:28,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, we don't. 2775 02:35:28,760 --> 02:35:30,160 Speaker 2: Uh, we don't hide it. 2776 02:35:30,879 --> 02:35:34,640 Speaker 13: But yeah, we took our shot at Canada, you know. Yeah, yeah, 2777 02:35:34,720 --> 02:35:37,320 Speaker 13: but we've taken a good couple of swings in a Tamadore. 2778 02:35:37,320 --> 02:35:40,800 Speaker 13: I think we land some punches, but who knows, time 2779 02:35:40,879 --> 02:35:43,879 Speaker 13: will tell. So, yeah, it's people from like I think 2780 02:35:43,959 --> 02:35:47,760 Speaker 13: often the migration is constructed as quite unquoite Mexican, which 2781 02:35:47,840 --> 02:35:50,840 Speaker 13: is definitely not the case. I spoke to one family 2782 02:35:51,440 --> 02:35:54,080 Speaker 13: from Mexico yesterday. But like, even if you look at 2783 02:35:54,160 --> 02:35:57,959 Speaker 13: border patrol statistics, about four thousand out of fifteen thousand 2784 02:35:58,040 --> 02:36:00,840 Speaker 13: people apprehended in the San Diego sector in July this 2785 02:36:01,000 --> 02:36:03,640 Speaker 13: year of Mexican nationality. 2786 02:36:03,640 --> 02:36:05,560 Speaker 14: That's laura than I would assume, to be honest. 2787 02:36:06,080 --> 02:36:09,440 Speaker 13: Yeah, I mean, it's just a number of things, right, Like, 2788 02:36:09,600 --> 02:36:13,680 Speaker 13: it's these countries, Like climate change is definitely getting worse, 2789 02:36:13,720 --> 02:36:15,280 Speaker 13: so migrass is happening from there. 2790 02:36:15,600 --> 02:36:17,359 Speaker 2: I see a lot of people from Vietnam. 2791 02:36:18,400 --> 02:36:21,640 Speaker 13: I don't have the language skills to speak to them 2792 02:36:21,800 --> 02:36:24,040 Speaker 13: in depth, like I was speaking to someone when We'll 2793 02:36:24,040 --> 02:36:28,040 Speaker 13: get onto this through Google Translate from Vietnam. But hard 2794 02:36:28,080 --> 02:36:30,720 Speaker 13: to conduct a full interview, especially when folks are guarding 2795 02:36:30,760 --> 02:36:33,560 Speaker 13: their phone charge, which they are because exactly the same 2796 02:36:33,560 --> 02:36:36,120 Speaker 13: as last time, they need the phone to do CBP one. 2797 02:36:36,680 --> 02:36:39,120 Speaker 13: They need the phone to interact with their families, let 2798 02:36:39,160 --> 02:36:42,480 Speaker 13: them know they're safe. Some of their families, I guess 2799 02:36:42,520 --> 02:36:46,000 Speaker 13: don't know that they're traveling. I was helping people charge 2800 02:36:46,080 --> 02:36:46,879 Speaker 13: phones yesterday. 2801 02:36:47,000 --> 02:36:48,959 Speaker 2: So we can talk. 2802 02:36:49,080 --> 02:36:50,720 Speaker 13: Let's talk a little bit about the mutual aid response, 2803 02:36:50,760 --> 02:36:52,320 Speaker 13: and then we'll get onto the border patrol, you know. 2804 02:36:53,600 --> 02:36:56,000 Speaker 13: So there are two groups down there right now, and 2805 02:36:56,040 --> 02:36:58,160 Speaker 13: I think it's very impressive the services they're able to 2806 02:36:58,240 --> 02:37:01,320 Speaker 13: provide because because border Patrol all claim these people are 2807 02:37:01,400 --> 02:37:05,360 Speaker 13: not detained, that means that they are therefore not obliged 2808 02:37:05,440 --> 02:37:09,480 Speaker 13: to provide any services to them. Right So that would 2809 02:37:09,480 --> 02:37:10,959 Speaker 13: mean they don't have to give them water, they don't 2810 02:37:11,000 --> 02:37:12,320 Speaker 13: have to give them food, they don't have to give 2811 02:37:12,320 --> 02:37:18,400 Speaker 13: them shelter or like salitation, which salitation is the one 2812 02:37:18,440 --> 02:37:20,720 Speaker 13: that's really hard to cover because everything has to go 2813 02:37:20,800 --> 02:37:24,840 Speaker 13: through a fist sized gap in the fence. So that's 2814 02:37:24,920 --> 02:37:28,480 Speaker 13: still like an unmet need. But these two groups free 2815 02:37:28,520 --> 02:37:33,400 Speaker 13: Ship Collective, they're a free Ship pebe on Twitter, and 2816 02:37:33,760 --> 02:37:37,560 Speaker 13: also American Friends Service Committee. I've spoken about them before. 2817 02:37:37,640 --> 02:37:41,320 Speaker 13: They're a Quaker group that they're really great, like in 2818 02:37:41,480 --> 02:37:43,800 Speaker 13: terms of turning up and helping people who need help. 2819 02:37:43,840 --> 02:37:46,600 Speaker 13: They're constantly there and they they're a good place to 2820 02:37:46,640 --> 02:37:49,040 Speaker 13: send your money even if you're not a Quaker yourself, 2821 02:37:49,160 --> 02:37:50,640 Speaker 13: like check out their Twitter. 2822 02:37:50,680 --> 02:37:50,720 Speaker 3: Like. 2823 02:37:50,720 --> 02:37:52,840 Speaker 13: Actually, they're probably aligned with a lot of people who 2824 02:37:52,879 --> 02:37:54,720 Speaker 13: listen to show on a lot of things. I think 2825 02:37:54,720 --> 02:38:00,040 Speaker 13: they're prison abolitionists. So those two groups were there and 2826 02:38:00,120 --> 02:38:02,920 Speaker 13: they would At first there was myself, one person from 2827 02:38:02,920 --> 02:38:06,120 Speaker 13: American French Service Committee, and two older volunteers who had 2828 02:38:06,200 --> 02:38:09,320 Speaker 13: come in about one hundred and fifty to two hundred people. 2829 02:38:09,480 --> 02:38:11,840 Speaker 13: So most of the ideas kind of helped because I 2830 02:38:11,920 --> 02:38:14,680 Speaker 13: think in that situation is more important out than necessarily 2831 02:38:14,879 --> 02:38:18,640 Speaker 13: get the best audio for your podcast. So we handed 2832 02:38:18,680 --> 02:38:23,640 Speaker 13: out water, handed out food, handed out those emergency survival blankets, and. 2833 02:38:25,200 --> 02:38:26,199 Speaker 2: It was about all we had. 2834 02:38:26,080 --> 02:38:29,080 Speaker 13: At first, some like medical stuff people had medical and 2835 02:38:29,240 --> 02:38:33,320 Speaker 13: a bit later free ship people came and Xavier came. 2836 02:38:33,800 --> 02:38:36,240 Speaker 13: I'm not sure what Zavier's org is, but I will 2837 02:38:36,280 --> 02:38:37,800 Speaker 13: tweet it when I find it. I'll put it in 2838 02:38:37,879 --> 02:38:41,040 Speaker 13: the show notes to He's great. I've spoken at his 2839 02:38:41,160 --> 02:38:43,160 Speaker 13: events before that he holds down by the Border. We 2840 02:38:43,200 --> 02:38:46,200 Speaker 13: had a border media round table. He turned up with 2841 02:38:46,280 --> 02:38:48,720 Speaker 13: a massive generator, so that was great. We're able to 2842 02:38:48,920 --> 02:38:53,480 Speaker 13: charge phones. And what's really I think like notable is 2843 02:38:53,600 --> 02:38:57,880 Speaker 13: how much the people in between the fences are able 2844 02:38:57,959 --> 02:39:02,240 Speaker 13: to participate in distribution of goods and helping each other. 2845 02:39:02,360 --> 02:39:05,440 Speaker 13: So like they have a person who volunteers to be 2846 02:39:05,640 --> 02:39:08,600 Speaker 13: the coordinator for the water distribution, and one who volunteers 2847 02:39:08,640 --> 02:39:12,520 Speaker 13: to coordinate for the organizing people into lines and making 2848 02:39:12,520 --> 02:39:14,280 Speaker 13: sure people don't cut the line right, and then one 2849 02:39:14,360 --> 02:39:16,880 Speaker 13: person who was the phone captain who was doing like 2850 02:39:17,520 --> 02:39:20,680 Speaker 13: an incredible job of they'd get the cell phone right 2851 02:39:20,800 --> 02:39:22,959 Speaker 13: right the name of the person and then sign them 2852 02:39:23,000 --> 02:39:24,960 Speaker 13: a number in the line, and that person would also 2853 02:39:25,000 --> 02:39:27,240 Speaker 13: have that name and number written on their hand, and 2854 02:39:27,280 --> 02:39:29,000 Speaker 13: it's written in duct tape that's taped to them and 2855 02:39:29,040 --> 02:39:31,840 Speaker 13: taped to the phone. And then when their turn to 2856 02:39:31,959 --> 02:39:34,640 Speaker 13: charge comes, he would shout the name of the number. 2857 02:39:34,760 --> 02:39:36,680 Speaker 13: They would come from wherever they were in between the walls. 2858 02:39:36,720 --> 02:39:38,760 Speaker 13: They'd come and we would charge the phone, and then 2859 02:39:38,760 --> 02:39:41,240 Speaker 13: once they've got above fifty sixty percent, we'd switch it 2860 02:39:41,280 --> 02:39:42,720 Speaker 13: out and he'd call them again and they come get 2861 02:39:42,760 --> 02:39:45,360 Speaker 13: their phone. So lots of that is stuff that was 2862 02:39:45,480 --> 02:39:49,640 Speaker 13: learned in May and has been like implemented again much 2863 02:39:49,800 --> 02:39:52,360 Speaker 13: more like. It's less chaotic than it was before, and 2864 02:39:52,560 --> 02:39:54,800 Speaker 13: fewer people are able to provide better help, which is 2865 02:39:54,879 --> 02:39:58,360 Speaker 13: really good that it doesn't mean that those people don't 2866 02:39:58,440 --> 02:40:01,120 Speaker 13: need like donations, because they do. I know, the free 2867 02:40:01,160 --> 02:40:03,600 Speaker 13: ship people came with dozens of blankets, but there weren't 2868 02:40:03,640 --> 02:40:07,720 Speaker 13: enough blankets for everybody, so we were prioritizing families with 2869 02:40:07,840 --> 02:40:11,240 Speaker 13: children and pregnant women to have a blanket. It was 2870 02:40:11,280 --> 02:40:14,080 Speaker 13: cold yesterday, it was raining, and people didn't have anything 2871 02:40:14,120 --> 02:40:17,200 Speaker 13: to shelter under. There were a few tarps, but not 2872 02:40:17,440 --> 02:40:20,560 Speaker 13: very many, and it's a pretty like there were very 2873 02:40:20,640 --> 02:40:23,280 Speaker 13: young babies there. Right, it's a pretty difficult place to 2874 02:40:23,320 --> 02:40:25,879 Speaker 13: sleep with like, people were very keen to get their 2875 02:40:25,920 --> 02:40:28,200 Speaker 13: hands on cardboard boxes to lie down on to sleep. 2876 02:40:29,680 --> 02:40:33,400 Speaker 13: That gives you a sense of how kind of underserved 2877 02:40:33,440 --> 02:40:36,240 Speaker 13: they are. There's obviously no toilet facilities because you're just 2878 02:40:36,320 --> 02:40:40,000 Speaker 13: in a dusty kind of desert area by the border. 2879 02:40:40,120 --> 02:40:44,440 Speaker 13: So if people are familiar with Las Americas, the Discount Moll, 2880 02:40:45,120 --> 02:40:48,200 Speaker 13: we're like maybe a mile west of there along the 2881 02:40:48,240 --> 02:40:52,960 Speaker 13: dirt road and it's just kind of dusty field, so 2882 02:40:53,200 --> 02:40:56,200 Speaker 13: very rocky, very difficult people to sleep, very exposed to 2883 02:40:56,280 --> 02:40:58,920 Speaker 13: the elements. Right, it was hot today, like I was 2884 02:40:58,959 --> 02:41:01,520 Speaker 13: out earlier, and it's ninety one, so they won't be 2885 02:41:01,640 --> 02:41:02,600 Speaker 13: having any shade today. 2886 02:41:03,080 --> 02:41:05,199 Speaker 2: They didn't have any shelter from the rain or or ways. 2887 02:41:05,080 --> 02:41:07,440 Speaker 13: To keep warm last night. They're not allowed to start 2888 02:41:07,520 --> 02:41:10,520 Speaker 13: fires either, even if they have them means to do so. 2889 02:41:11,240 --> 02:41:16,680 Speaker 13: So the situation of these people I think is something 2890 02:41:16,800 --> 02:41:20,840 Speaker 13: worth discussing because it's not exactly super duper clear what 2891 02:41:21,120 --> 02:41:25,200 Speaker 13: role this plays in the immigration process. And there were 2892 02:41:25,240 --> 02:41:26,960 Speaker 13: a couple of examples to illustrate that. So I was 2893 02:41:27,000 --> 02:41:32,280 Speaker 13: able to talk to one person. They presented themselves from 2894 02:41:32,520 --> 02:41:35,240 Speaker 13: like they came into the parking lot walking and they 2895 02:41:35,240 --> 02:41:38,440 Speaker 13: looked looked very concerned, and so I approached him as, hey, 2896 02:41:38,879 --> 02:41:39,560 Speaker 13: do you need anything? 2897 02:41:39,640 --> 02:41:40,200 Speaker 2: Can we help you? 2898 02:41:40,800 --> 02:41:45,000 Speaker 13: And they had experienced some kind of medical condition and 2899 02:41:46,040 --> 02:41:50,800 Speaker 13: been taken to hospital, which Customs and Border Protection will 2900 02:41:50,879 --> 02:41:52,360 Speaker 13: do that, right, Like, if those people are there and 2901 02:41:52,400 --> 02:41:54,920 Speaker 13: they're having an emergency, they'll open the gate, take that 2902 02:41:55,000 --> 02:41:59,440 Speaker 13: person out and transport them to hospital somewhere in San Diego. 2903 02:42:00,280 --> 02:42:03,960 Speaker 13: That person had then been released from hospital to a taxi, 2904 02:42:04,040 --> 02:42:06,600 Speaker 13: which hospitals in San Diego have a habit of doing this. 2905 02:42:07,200 --> 02:42:08,520 Speaker 13: They'll dump homeless people. 2906 02:42:08,640 --> 02:42:08,760 Speaker 4: Right. 2907 02:42:08,840 --> 02:42:11,200 Speaker 13: If you anyone in San Diego will have seen this, 2908 02:42:11,280 --> 02:42:13,440 Speaker 13: you'll be familiar with like people dumped out of hospital 2909 02:42:13,480 --> 02:42:16,840 Speaker 13: in Hillcrest wearing a hospital gown and maybe having very 2910 02:42:16,879 --> 02:42:22,640 Speaker 13: little other possessions. Maybe it's every single day this happened. Unfortunately, 2911 02:42:22,680 --> 02:42:25,640 Speaker 13: people have passed away on being released by the hospital 2912 02:42:25,720 --> 02:42:30,880 Speaker 13: before in Hillcrest. So they release these folks and I 2913 02:42:30,920 --> 02:42:32,680 Speaker 13: guess they often give them a bus pass or they 2914 02:42:32,720 --> 02:42:34,160 Speaker 13: pay for a taxi. In this case, they paid for 2915 02:42:34,240 --> 02:42:37,920 Speaker 13: this person's taxi. They asked for a taxi to the border. 2916 02:42:38,000 --> 02:42:40,520 Speaker 13: The command of English was pretty limited, so they asked 2917 02:42:40,520 --> 02:42:44,120 Speaker 13: for a taxi to the border. They were taken to 2918 02:42:44,360 --> 02:42:46,480 Speaker 13: like the formal border crossing at Seni Shudur, which is 2919 02:42:46,600 --> 02:42:49,120 Speaker 13: a mile and a half east of where we were. 2920 02:42:49,200 --> 02:42:51,520 Speaker 13: And then they walked down the dirt road to where 2921 02:42:51,560 --> 02:42:55,200 Speaker 13: we were. But obviously because there was a fence in 2922 02:42:55,320 --> 02:43:00,400 Speaker 13: between us and the people being quite detained, then they 2923 02:43:00,400 --> 02:43:04,520 Speaker 13: weren't able to access that area, right. So that leaves 2924 02:43:04,560 --> 02:43:06,280 Speaker 13: them in a conundrum, right that they're now in the 2925 02:43:06,360 --> 02:43:11,640 Speaker 13: United States without without any status, they were able to 2926 02:43:11,959 --> 02:43:15,040 Speaker 13: want Body of Troll agent advise them to return to Mexico. 2927 02:43:15,120 --> 02:43:18,560 Speaker 13: Obviously that would constitute an entry to Mexico in between 2928 02:43:18,600 --> 02:43:22,360 Speaker 13: ports of entry. Right, you'd be illegally entering Mexico. It's 2929 02:43:22,440 --> 02:43:24,320 Speaker 13: not Bord of Patrol's job to enforce Mexican laws. But 2930 02:43:24,959 --> 02:43:27,840 Speaker 13: that person was in the United States and presented a 2931 02:43:27,920 --> 02:43:28,720 Speaker 13: claim for asylum. 2932 02:43:28,840 --> 02:43:28,920 Speaker 3: Right. 2933 02:43:29,720 --> 02:43:34,240 Speaker 13: They had a cell phone and they were using Google Translate, 2934 02:43:34,320 --> 02:43:37,480 Speaker 13: and they literally I could see it. It was like, 2935 02:43:37,720 --> 02:43:40,279 Speaker 13: I'm afraid to go back to my country. I'm afraid 2936 02:43:40,320 --> 02:43:41,880 Speaker 13: I will be hurt if I go back there, which 2937 02:43:42,040 --> 02:43:44,000 Speaker 13: is like a pretty textbook asylum claim. 2938 02:43:44,520 --> 02:43:45,840 Speaker 2: I would like to claim asylum. 2939 02:43:46,080 --> 02:43:46,200 Speaker 4: Right. 2940 02:43:46,520 --> 02:43:50,800 Speaker 13: And on making that claim, a Border of Patrol agent 2941 02:43:50,920 --> 02:43:54,160 Speaker 13: returned them to the area in between offenses, right, which 2942 02:43:54,200 --> 02:43:57,120 Speaker 13: would suggest that like this is a holding facility to 2943 02:43:57,160 --> 02:44:01,000 Speaker 13: Border Patrol for people. I just want to read the 2944 02:44:01,080 --> 02:44:06,840 Speaker 13: statement that Border Patrol made to me this morning. This 2945 02:44:07,080 --> 02:44:09,240 Speaker 13: was like a couple of hours to one recording this, 2946 02:44:09,360 --> 02:44:13,560 Speaker 13: recording this on Tuesday. CBP has built and retrofited facilities 2947 02:44:13,560 --> 02:44:16,480 Speaker 13: along the Southwest border to enhance our capabilities in this regard. 2948 02:44:16,640 --> 02:44:19,879 Speaker 13: CBP has also significantly increased the number of medical personnel 2949 02:44:19,879 --> 02:44:23,279 Speaker 13: along the Southwest border and those providing other wrap around services, 2950 02:44:23,879 --> 02:44:27,000 Speaker 13: all to better support ensuring getting people appropriate care as 2951 02:44:27,040 --> 02:44:30,480 Speaker 13: quickly as possible. Border Patrol has prioritized the quick transportation 2952 02:44:30,560 --> 02:44:34,000 Speaker 13: of migrants encountered in this environment, which is partially dangerous, 2953 02:44:34,320 --> 02:44:37,680 Speaker 13: particularly dangerous uring current weather conditions, to border patrol facilities 2954 02:44:37,680 --> 02:44:40,360 Speaker 13: where individuals can see medical care, food, and water. It 2955 02:44:40,480 --> 02:44:42,640 Speaker 13: is important to note that migrants who are between the 2956 02:44:42,720 --> 02:44:45,920 Speaker 13: border barriers are not in border patrol custody and are 2957 02:44:46,000 --> 02:44:49,160 Speaker 13: at liberty to return to Mexico if they desire. We 2958 02:44:49,280 --> 02:44:52,400 Speaker 13: have some audio of border patrol addressing the migratine between defenses. 2959 02:44:52,440 --> 02:44:53,880 Speaker 13: So Daniel's going to drop in right after this. 2960 02:45:04,320 --> 02:45:12,840 Speaker 15: Bracelet listen. We take as soon as we can. Well, 2961 02:45:12,879 --> 02:45:14,520 Speaker 15: so there's too many of you. 2962 02:45:14,959 --> 02:45:16,160 Speaker 2: We can't do this fast. 2963 02:45:17,360 --> 02:45:19,520 Speaker 15: Why sit here and talk to you the last time 2964 02:45:19,600 --> 02:45:24,119 Speaker 15: we have to take people we're not designed to take 2965 02:45:24,240 --> 02:45:28,240 Speaker 15: hundreds of people working as first as we can be patient. 2966 02:45:28,120 --> 02:45:28,920 Speaker 3: And I can tell you. 2967 02:45:31,000 --> 02:45:33,560 Speaker 13: This, they're shouting at them. They're shouting at them in English. 2968 02:45:35,120 --> 02:45:38,080 Speaker 13: They're not really giving any clue. So the people obviously 2969 02:45:38,160 --> 02:45:40,840 Speaker 13: have questions. Right they've entered, lots of them have been 2970 02:45:40,879 --> 02:45:44,000 Speaker 13: given bracelets when he's talking about the bracelets, and people 2971 02:45:44,040 --> 02:45:45,360 Speaker 13: will have heard that in the intro to that they 2972 02:45:45,400 --> 02:45:47,880 Speaker 13: were taking people with white bracelets. Those have a day, 2973 02:45:48,120 --> 02:45:51,440 Speaker 13: right the day that you entered, so like it might 2974 02:45:51,520 --> 02:45:55,120 Speaker 13: say Monday or Sunday or today. Obviously it's Tuesday, so 2975 02:45:55,120 --> 02:45:57,160 Speaker 13: they would get a bracelet which has a color and 2976 02:45:57,560 --> 02:46:03,400 Speaker 13: a day, and they proscess people in order of priority. 2977 02:46:03,959 --> 02:46:06,040 Speaker 13: The people who arrived on Monday. First sale process on 2978 02:46:06,080 --> 02:46:10,959 Speaker 13: accompanied miners. I didn't see any obviously, some eighteen year 2979 02:46:10,959 --> 02:46:13,160 Speaker 13: old people. It could be hard to tell how exactly 2980 02:46:13,240 --> 02:46:15,600 Speaker 13: old they are, but seventeen whatever, But I didn't see 2981 02:46:15,640 --> 02:46:18,240 Speaker 13: any people that young on their own. After that, they 2982 02:46:18,280 --> 02:46:23,840 Speaker 13: will process single mothers with children, sat a few of those, 2983 02:46:23,920 --> 02:46:26,160 Speaker 13: quite a few of those. After that, they will process 2984 02:46:26,400 --> 02:46:30,640 Speaker 13: like a family, which they defined to consist of a 2985 02:46:30,800 --> 02:46:34,040 Speaker 13: man or women and children. After that, they will process 2986 02:46:34,800 --> 02:46:37,200 Speaker 13: men on their own. I guess women on their own, 2987 02:46:37,240 --> 02:46:40,600 Speaker 13: then men on their own. They had initially separated people. 2988 02:46:40,879 --> 02:46:42,760 Speaker 13: They had people just like they had last time, right 2989 02:46:43,000 --> 02:46:45,680 Speaker 13: in like families and those with children, and then single 2990 02:46:45,720 --> 02:46:47,520 Speaker 13: men were somewhere else. But it seemed like people were 2991 02:46:47,560 --> 02:46:50,120 Speaker 13: able to come to travel in between the fences down 2992 02:46:50,160 --> 02:46:52,440 Speaker 13: to the place where I was, because that was the 2993 02:46:52,520 --> 02:46:55,000 Speaker 13: only place that they were able to access services, right, 2994 02:46:56,520 --> 02:46:58,240 Speaker 13: And I guess the claim of border patrollers that these 2995 02:46:58,280 --> 02:47:01,000 Speaker 13: people could go back to Mexico. So I'm not sure 2996 02:47:02,200 --> 02:47:06,600 Speaker 13: how because obviously that they're in between these thirty foot 2997 02:47:06,680 --> 02:47:09,880 Speaker 13: walls right right, you could go around the end. 2998 02:47:09,959 --> 02:47:11,080 Speaker 2: That's how people come north. 2999 02:47:11,840 --> 02:47:15,240 Speaker 13: But that's quite a hike, especially if you haven't got 3000 02:47:15,280 --> 02:47:18,680 Speaker 13: any water and food and stuff. So yeah, it's this 3001 02:47:18,840 --> 02:47:22,000 Speaker 13: is what they've claimed. It's worth noting that like Border Patrol, 3002 02:47:23,360 --> 02:47:28,400 Speaker 13: a number of representative from the Hispanic Caucus like requested 3003 02:47:28,720 --> 02:47:32,600 Speaker 13: Border Patrol clarify this after what happened in May, and 3004 02:47:32,680 --> 02:47:36,040 Speaker 13: their letter they noted that the conditions violate agency guidelines 3005 02:47:36,200 --> 02:47:39,040 Speaker 13: for detention, which they do, and that Border Patrol isn't 3006 02:47:39,040 --> 02:47:40,640 Speaker 13: supposed to hold people in its own custody for more 3007 02:47:40,680 --> 02:47:42,640 Speaker 13: than seventy two hours, which some people were held for 3008 02:47:42,720 --> 02:47:45,960 Speaker 13: longer than that in May, and CBP responded, I'll just 3009 02:47:46,040 --> 02:47:48,480 Speaker 13: read it out. The individuals in question had not made 3010 02:47:48,520 --> 02:47:51,400 Speaker 13: contact with US Border Patrol personnel and were not constrained 3011 02:47:51,440 --> 02:47:54,120 Speaker 13: from further movement. At the time of this incident, the 3012 02:47:54,280 --> 02:47:57,800 Speaker 13: US Border Patrol San Diego sector facilities were experiencing capacity 3013 02:47:57,879 --> 02:48:01,560 Speaker 13: issues and some transportation challenges which have thinks been remediated. 3014 02:48:01,840 --> 02:48:04,640 Speaker 13: Border Patrol agents encountered and apprehended these migrants as soon 3015 02:48:04,680 --> 02:48:08,240 Speaker 13: as there's operationally feasible to do so. Again, like they 3016 02:48:08,320 --> 02:48:12,160 Speaker 13: were dropped off in May by Border Patrol vehicles in 3017 02:48:12,280 --> 02:48:15,440 Speaker 13: the place where they were being detained, And it's simply 3018 02:48:15,560 --> 02:48:18,560 Speaker 13: not factually correct to suggest that they had not come 3019 02:48:18,600 --> 02:48:19,959 Speaker 13: into contact with Border Patrol. 3020 02:48:21,480 --> 02:48:25,240 Speaker 2: I have video of it. I've published video over on Twitter, 3021 02:48:25,600 --> 02:48:27,600 Speaker 2: We've used audio of it on the podcast. I think 3022 02:48:27,680 --> 02:48:31,080 Speaker 2: it's just not true. So Border Patrol. 3023 02:48:30,879 --> 02:48:35,560 Speaker 13: Essentially are claiming that this isn't happening when it continues 3024 02:48:35,600 --> 02:48:38,560 Speaker 13: to happen, right, and this time they've taken that to 3025 02:48:38,720 --> 02:48:41,760 Speaker 13: it's like they've already doubled down on that status. I 3026 02:48:41,840 --> 02:48:47,039 Speaker 13: guess because they're not providing any services, which is probably 3027 02:48:47,120 --> 02:48:50,879 Speaker 13: a good time for us to hear from some products 3028 02:48:50,920 --> 02:48:56,840 Speaker 13: and services. Oh yeah, fucking magic. Look at that taking 3029 02:48:56,879 --> 02:49:01,600 Speaker 13: a factory lap. I'm quitting now, gust again. I enjoy 3030 02:49:01,760 --> 02:49:02,440 Speaker 13: these adverts. 3031 02:49:03,640 --> 02:49:06,080 Speaker 2: Yeah it's me, I'm back. Everyone else is still here too. 3032 02:49:06,800 --> 02:49:09,320 Speaker 13: Now we're talking about the mutual aid response to what's 3033 02:49:09,360 --> 02:49:12,600 Speaker 13: happening at the border, right And as I said, a 3034 02:49:12,640 --> 02:49:14,200 Speaker 13: border patrol arn't providing anything. 3035 02:49:14,320 --> 02:49:15,560 Speaker 2: And as I said, at least. 3036 02:49:15,440 --> 02:49:17,840 Speaker 13: When I left, I left after it got dark, quite 3037 02:49:17,840 --> 02:49:19,400 Speaker 13: a long time after it got dark last night. It 3038 02:49:19,440 --> 02:49:22,160 Speaker 13: was there for probably seven six or seven hours, and 3039 02:49:22,240 --> 02:49:24,080 Speaker 13: I saw more and more people arriving in that time, 3040 02:49:24,480 --> 02:49:28,440 Speaker 13: and it was a really wide dispersed group of people. 3041 02:49:29,959 --> 02:49:32,200 Speaker 13: I would say maybe the majority was Spanish speaking, but 3042 02:49:32,280 --> 02:49:34,400 Speaker 13: a lot of people with Vietnamese. I was speaking to 3043 02:49:35,120 --> 02:49:38,760 Speaker 13: some Francophone African people at various nationalities right before I left, 3044 02:49:40,160 --> 02:49:44,600 Speaker 13: Like I said, lots of people from Tadjikastan, Azbekistan, as Abijan, 3045 02:49:44,680 --> 02:49:49,199 Speaker 13: places like that. Those people were pretty prominent. So it's 3046 02:49:49,360 --> 02:49:51,760 Speaker 13: fairly hard for volunteers to communicate with all of them. 3047 02:49:51,800 --> 02:49:55,520 Speaker 13: And they don't have any information right about what's happening 3048 02:49:55,640 --> 02:49:57,760 Speaker 13: to them. Can they expect to be separated? In some 3049 02:49:57,879 --> 02:50:01,440 Speaker 13: cases they can I can they expect how long can 3050 02:50:01,440 --> 02:50:02,400 Speaker 13: they expect to be there? 3051 02:50:02,640 --> 02:50:04,240 Speaker 2: We don't really know, right. 3052 02:50:04,320 --> 02:50:06,920 Speaker 13: I heard one Border Patrol agent saying that some of 3053 02:50:06,920 --> 02:50:08,920 Speaker 13: the people who arrived on Monday could expect to be 3054 02:50:09,000 --> 02:50:11,480 Speaker 13: taken out maybe by Wednesday, So that's at least two 3055 02:50:11,560 --> 02:50:16,480 Speaker 13: hours two days, right. So all of the services they're 3056 02:50:16,600 --> 02:50:20,440 Speaker 13: being provided, they're being provided through mutual aid right now, 3057 02:50:20,520 --> 02:50:23,960 Speaker 13: which is exactly the same thing that happened last time. 3058 02:50:24,040 --> 02:50:26,480 Speaker 13: Right Sometimes, Border Patrol last time gave them a granola bar. 3059 02:50:27,160 --> 02:50:29,920 Speaker 13: We haven't come back with their granola bars this time. 3060 02:50:30,280 --> 02:50:33,600 Speaker 13: And I think it's really worth us like taking a 3061 02:50:33,680 --> 02:50:38,360 Speaker 13: moment to consider the scale of what like two hundred 3062 02:50:38,400 --> 02:50:40,680 Speaker 13: people is not that many people, but it was more 3063 02:50:40,760 --> 02:50:43,480 Speaker 13: than two thousand people in May, and that was provided 3064 02:50:43,520 --> 02:50:45,240 Speaker 13: for by mutual aid. And I think it's a really 3065 02:50:45,360 --> 02:50:48,800 Speaker 13: good like getting off point for maybe us to have 3066 02:50:48,840 --> 02:50:52,400 Speaker 13: a talk here about how we do mutual aid, because 3067 02:50:54,360 --> 02:50:57,480 Speaker 13: the only thing that enabled like little babies to have 3068 02:50:58,080 --> 02:51:02,080 Speaker 13: like a blanket is some one messaging someone else on 3069 02:51:02,160 --> 02:51:04,360 Speaker 13: signal and being like, hey, this is happening again. 3070 02:51:05,040 --> 02:51:06,280 Speaker 2: Do you have stuff? Can you come down? 3071 02:51:06,480 --> 02:51:09,920 Speaker 13: And someone who I don't know, weeks ago I guess 3072 02:51:10,040 --> 02:51:11,440 Speaker 13: was like, Oh, these people are doing nice things, let 3073 02:51:11,480 --> 02:51:14,360 Speaker 13: me send them some money, because without that, those people 3074 02:51:14,400 --> 02:51:16,560 Speaker 13: would just be sleeping in the in the in the dust. 3075 02:51:16,720 --> 02:51:21,040 Speaker 13: I think it's really it's it's admirable, I think, And 3076 02:51:21,120 --> 02:51:25,360 Speaker 13: it's something that like, I don't know how to say this, 3077 02:51:26,879 --> 02:51:29,200 Speaker 13: that we should take into consideration when we're discussing things 3078 02:51:29,280 --> 02:51:32,840 Speaker 13: like religion and then like doing discourse, and like it 3079 02:51:32,920 --> 02:51:34,560 Speaker 13: could be really easy to get like into a like 3080 02:51:34,640 --> 02:51:36,040 Speaker 13: full readit atheist mode. 3081 02:51:36,160 --> 02:51:39,200 Speaker 2: I'm not a person who believes in religion particularly, but like. 3082 02:51:41,000 --> 02:51:45,240 Speaker 13: The only people who are helping at some point are 3083 02:51:46,160 --> 02:51:48,240 Speaker 13: people who are at least part of religious organizations. 3084 02:51:48,959 --> 02:51:54,240 Speaker 1: Look, I think that the perfectly consistent stance to have 3085 02:51:54,560 --> 02:51:58,199 Speaker 1: is that like, if someone is showing up and providing 3086 02:51:58,320 --> 02:52:04,600 Speaker 1: people with necessary assistance and not not asking for anything 3087 02:52:04,720 --> 02:52:08,240 Speaker 1: in return, including the ability to prostlytize, then I don't 3088 02:52:08,240 --> 02:52:10,800 Speaker 1: give a shit what right, Like, I don't care if 3089 02:52:10,800 --> 02:52:12,400 Speaker 1: they're from a church. I don't care if it's like 3090 02:52:12,879 --> 02:52:15,200 Speaker 1: you know, some week, like, as long as they are 3091 02:52:15,280 --> 02:52:18,240 Speaker 1: showing up and helping people in desperate need and not 3092 02:52:19,240 --> 02:52:22,680 Speaker 1: demanding some sort of something from them, including like you 3093 02:52:22,760 --> 02:52:25,720 Speaker 1: know them listen to a spiel. I don't really you know, 3094 02:52:26,440 --> 02:52:28,120 Speaker 1: it could be a church. Who gives a fuck, right, like, 3095 02:52:28,640 --> 02:52:30,880 Speaker 1: I'm glad they're there, you know, yeah, totally, it can 3096 02:52:30,920 --> 02:52:33,360 Speaker 1: be a church. There were mosques there last time. I'm 3097 02:52:33,440 --> 02:52:37,520 Speaker 1: sure that they were like synagogues, and yeah, fucking kudos 3098 02:52:37,600 --> 02:52:40,000 Speaker 1: to those people, right, yeah, you know, like that's good, 3099 02:52:40,320 --> 02:52:40,959 Speaker 1: glad they're there. 3100 02:52:41,920 --> 02:52:45,080 Speaker 13: Yeah, those Yeah, those people are doing anarchism too, even 3101 02:52:45,120 --> 02:52:48,000 Speaker 13: if they wouldn't call it that or whatever. Like, you know, 3102 02:52:48,080 --> 02:52:51,120 Speaker 13: the more we can create networks that look after each 3103 02:52:51,120 --> 02:52:54,000 Speaker 13: other without trying to control each other, then the better 3104 02:52:54,160 --> 02:52:55,560 Speaker 13: of a place we make the world. And that's what 3105 02:52:55,640 --> 02:52:58,000 Speaker 13: those people are doing, and we should all celebrate that 3106 02:52:58,120 --> 02:53:01,960 Speaker 13: and support them however we can. And I guess so 3107 02:53:03,280 --> 02:53:07,360 Speaker 13: as of today, there are still people there, and they 3108 02:53:07,400 --> 02:53:10,959 Speaker 13: still seem to be putting people in there. I think 3109 02:53:11,000 --> 02:53:13,040 Speaker 13: it's not supposed to be too hot this week, like 3110 02:53:13,080 --> 02:53:16,520 Speaker 13: we had triple digit days last week. I think over 3111 02:53:16,600 --> 02:53:17,720 Speaker 13: the weekend was pretty hot. 3112 02:53:17,800 --> 02:53:18,200 Speaker 6: Yeah it was. 3113 02:53:18,520 --> 02:53:21,280 Speaker 13: It was very hot of the weekend. So like the 3114 02:53:21,360 --> 02:53:24,240 Speaker 13: possibility for this to get much worse is still there, right, 3115 02:53:24,360 --> 02:53:29,039 Speaker 13: the possibility for people to get the person I spoke 3116 02:53:29,080 --> 02:53:31,640 Speaker 13: to you who had to go to hospital, had become dehydrated, 3117 02:53:31,720 --> 02:53:35,720 Speaker 13: Like that's how they needed because you don't when people 3118 02:53:36,160 --> 02:53:38,320 Speaker 13: were when we first at least when I first got there, 3119 02:53:38,320 --> 02:53:40,680 Speaker 13: people were very hungry and very thirsty and like really 3120 02:53:40,760 --> 02:53:44,119 Speaker 13: desperate for a drink of water because often they'd come 3121 02:53:44,160 --> 02:53:46,960 Speaker 13: from some of those other holding areas and like walked 3122 02:53:47,040 --> 02:53:49,640 Speaker 13: down because this was the only place where they could 3123 02:53:50,000 --> 02:53:54,840 Speaker 13: access stuff. So like, yeah, I guess the potential for 3124 02:53:54,920 --> 02:53:59,279 Speaker 13: this to turn into something as sad and completely unnecessary 3125 02:53:59,320 --> 02:54:01,440 Speaker 13: as what happened May is there again. 3126 02:54:02,280 --> 02:54:05,040 Speaker 14: Yeah, so you mentioned that there's no shade, like no 3127 02:54:05,160 --> 02:54:08,120 Speaker 14: shaded areas, So when it's triple digits, like there are 3128 02:54:08,240 --> 02:54:13,120 Speaker 14: kids and babies and everyone's outside, Yes, that is just 3129 02:54:13,920 --> 02:54:16,320 Speaker 14: I mean, it's terrible regardless, but like that in particular, 3130 02:54:16,400 --> 02:54:17,039 Speaker 14: that's like brutal. 3131 02:54:17,680 --> 02:54:20,800 Speaker 13: Yeah, I mean I think I've shared these pictures with 3132 02:54:20,879 --> 02:54:24,199 Speaker 13: you guys before, but like in Hacumber in May, people 3133 02:54:24,280 --> 02:54:27,120 Speaker 13: were making little kind of a frames and lean to's 3134 02:54:27,280 --> 02:54:30,640 Speaker 13: and out of osuitillos and cacti and stuff just trying 3135 02:54:30,680 --> 02:54:33,160 Speaker 13: to get out of it. It was very hot then 3136 02:54:33,280 --> 02:54:33,640 Speaker 13: out there. 3137 02:54:34,640 --> 02:54:35,440 Speaker 2: I mean the photos you. 3138 02:54:35,440 --> 02:54:38,240 Speaker 14: Sat recently, there's like a there's a photo you sat 3139 02:54:38,280 --> 02:54:42,440 Speaker 14: with the child's hand, like coming out of the the fence. 3140 02:54:42,480 --> 02:54:43,560 Speaker 2: That have made me emotional. 3141 02:54:44,280 --> 02:54:47,240 Speaker 13: Yeah, it makes me emotional, honestly. Like I think I've 3142 02:54:47,320 --> 02:54:49,400 Speaker 13: said this before, like in interviews, and I did an 3143 02:54:49,440 --> 02:54:52,520 Speaker 13: interview with Roy Pecktrest about this, but like I would 3144 02:54:52,720 --> 02:54:56,640 Speaker 13: rather go somewhere dangerous and have dangerous things happen, and 3145 02:54:56,800 --> 02:55:00,160 Speaker 13: then see a little kid have to be cold, not 3146 02:55:00,240 --> 02:55:02,880 Speaker 13: be able to help them, or like just be sad, 3147 02:55:03,080 --> 02:55:06,760 Speaker 13: like it's not a fun place for children, And that 3148 02:55:06,920 --> 02:55:08,280 Speaker 13: fucks me up in a way that like. 3149 02:55:08,800 --> 02:55:09,959 Speaker 2: That's yeah, I would. 3150 02:55:10,080 --> 02:55:13,960 Speaker 1: I would so much rather be like physically uncomfortable or 3151 02:55:14,040 --> 02:55:17,280 Speaker 1: in danger than like be in a perfectly safe place 3152 02:55:17,480 --> 02:55:19,160 Speaker 1: where you're watching kids suffer. 3153 02:55:19,360 --> 02:55:20,320 Speaker 2: Like that's the rough thing. 3154 02:55:20,400 --> 02:55:23,360 Speaker 1: I've been to a lot of refugee camps, and it's 3155 02:55:23,400 --> 02:55:27,920 Speaker 1: always like, you know, it's weird because I've also seen 3156 02:55:27,959 --> 02:55:31,480 Speaker 1: a lot of kids like in active combat zones. And 3157 02:55:32,879 --> 02:55:34,960 Speaker 1: don't take the wrong thing out of this, but like 3158 02:55:35,959 --> 02:55:39,039 Speaker 1: the the kids who have been stuck in a camp 3159 02:55:39,360 --> 02:55:43,520 Speaker 1: with like no chance of ever getting out seem like 3160 02:55:43,760 --> 02:55:45,959 Speaker 1: more depressed in a lot of ways than the kids 3161 02:55:46,000 --> 02:55:48,800 Speaker 1: who every day you know they're they're in you know, 3162 02:55:48,959 --> 02:55:50,920 Speaker 1: part of the city, even though like the city is 3163 02:55:51,120 --> 02:55:54,440 Speaker 1: a dangerous place to be. They they're they're moving around, 3164 02:55:54,480 --> 02:55:57,520 Speaker 1: they're usually doing stuff. Obviously it's a much more worse 3165 02:55:57,600 --> 02:56:00,560 Speaker 1: situation in a lot of ways. But like the degree 3166 02:56:00,640 --> 02:56:05,440 Speaker 1: to which being in this limbo messes with their heads 3167 02:56:05,640 --> 02:56:11,640 Speaker 1: and depresses them and traumatizes them is And again I'm 3168 02:56:11,680 --> 02:56:13,720 Speaker 1: not saying like it's better for kids to be in 3169 02:56:13,800 --> 02:56:16,240 Speaker 1: an act of war zone, but like that is trauma 3170 02:56:16,360 --> 02:56:17,959 Speaker 1: as well, and I think in a lot of ways 3171 02:56:18,000 --> 02:56:20,920 Speaker 1: an equivalent trauma. Even though the danger to their body 3172 02:56:21,080 --> 02:56:24,200 Speaker 1: is less, the trauma they face being stuck in a 3173 02:56:24,320 --> 02:56:27,640 Speaker 1: place and not having any idea what the future is 3174 02:56:27,720 --> 02:56:30,200 Speaker 1: and not having any ability to influence it. Really right 3175 02:56:30,240 --> 02:56:32,320 Speaker 1: being you know, these kids up at this fence are 3176 02:56:32,400 --> 02:56:35,840 Speaker 1: totally they have no control over their future or their lives. 3177 02:56:35,920 --> 02:56:39,640 Speaker 13: Really, I think that's the really like it strips people 3178 02:56:39,680 --> 02:56:43,000 Speaker 13: of their agency, which is a really degrading thing to do. 3179 02:56:43,240 --> 02:56:43,360 Speaker 3: Right. 3180 02:56:43,600 --> 02:56:48,200 Speaker 13: You're forcing these people they can do everything right. That 3181 02:56:49,160 --> 02:56:52,880 Speaker 13: person presented every perfect affirmative asylum claiming you know, and 3182 02:56:54,600 --> 02:56:57,000 Speaker 13: yeah it doesn't matter. And I think that's very hard, 3183 02:56:57,160 --> 02:56:59,320 Speaker 13: especially I imagine it's very difficult. I'm not a parent, 3184 02:56:59,400 --> 02:57:02,760 Speaker 13: but I imagine that, Like if you are a parent's dad, yeah, 3185 02:57:03,320 --> 02:57:05,000 Speaker 13: you know, you just want your kids to have a 3186 02:57:05,040 --> 02:57:08,320 Speaker 13: safe place to grow up. And like, I don't know, 3187 02:57:08,800 --> 02:57:11,840 Speaker 13: it's the first time I ever realized that I was 3188 02:57:11,920 --> 02:57:14,240 Speaker 13: having a trauma response, and it was not a good one. 3189 02:57:14,520 --> 02:57:17,960 Speaker 13: Was in twenty eighteen with the migrant caravan, when like 3190 02:57:18,440 --> 02:57:20,360 Speaker 13: I had been there was one little child where I 3191 02:57:20,360 --> 02:57:22,840 Speaker 13: speak about a lot, but like, she was obsessed with 3192 02:57:22,959 --> 02:57:25,080 Speaker 13: my hair. If people haven't seen paces of me have 3193 02:57:25,160 --> 02:57:28,440 Speaker 13: long hair, and like wanted to braid my hair every 3194 02:57:28,600 --> 02:57:30,840 Speaker 13: time I went there. And so she'd come and she'd 3195 02:57:30,879 --> 02:57:32,920 Speaker 13: sit on my shoulders and I would just do shit, 3196 02:57:33,280 --> 02:57:34,880 Speaker 13: and she would braid my hair while I was you know, 3197 02:57:35,560 --> 02:57:37,560 Speaker 13: handing out water bottles or you know. 3198 02:57:37,680 --> 02:57:39,040 Speaker 2: Talking to people, doing what I could do. 3199 02:57:39,200 --> 02:57:42,480 Speaker 13: And like I saw that girl every day for months, right, 3200 02:57:42,600 --> 02:57:44,800 Speaker 13: And then I remember once coming back to a Christmas 3201 02:57:44,840 --> 02:57:47,360 Speaker 13: party and just wanting to fucking scream at everyone. It's 3202 02:57:47,400 --> 02:57:51,800 Speaker 13: a juxtaposition from being seeing this little kid like deprived 3203 02:57:51,840 --> 02:57:53,960 Speaker 13: of so many things that chord should have warmth and 3204 02:57:54,080 --> 02:57:56,640 Speaker 13: shelter and good food and a safe place to be, 3205 02:57:57,400 --> 02:58:01,279 Speaker 13: and then going home, you know, twenty it drive across 3206 02:58:01,320 --> 02:58:05,119 Speaker 13: the border drive home and see people just like going 3207 02:58:05,160 --> 02:58:10,320 Speaker 13: about their lives. It's it's a really challenging yeah, duality. 3208 02:58:11,920 --> 02:58:13,720 Speaker 13: We can't stop it, right, Like it's not in our 3209 02:58:13,760 --> 02:58:16,480 Speaker 13: power to stop this, but like, and it is in 3210 02:58:16,560 --> 02:58:18,400 Speaker 13: our power. One of the things I hate people being 3211 02:58:18,520 --> 02:58:20,480 Speaker 13: like it's like welcome to America. Like it's a pretty 3212 02:58:20,520 --> 02:58:24,960 Speaker 13: fucked up way to be welcome to America, right, But like, like, 3213 02:58:25,080 --> 02:58:27,640 Speaker 13: I'm an immigrant. My my arrival here was very different, 3214 02:58:28,840 --> 02:58:31,720 Speaker 13: Like Sharin, you came here when you were younger, right, 3215 02:58:32,640 --> 02:58:32,920 Speaker 13: I was. 3216 02:58:33,160 --> 02:58:36,400 Speaker 14: I didn't immigrate myself. I was born here a month old, 3217 02:58:36,520 --> 02:58:38,080 Speaker 14: moved back from my parents, immigrated. 3218 02:58:38,240 --> 02:58:38,400 Speaker 4: Yeah. 3219 02:58:38,560 --> 02:58:40,760 Speaker 2: So you can be president, that's important. 3220 02:58:40,920 --> 02:58:42,080 Speaker 14: Oh yes, I can be president. 3221 02:58:42,160 --> 02:58:44,600 Speaker 2: You can be president, but not James, which is which 3222 02:58:44,680 --> 02:58:45,480 Speaker 2: is good? Which is good? 3223 02:58:46,160 --> 02:58:46,360 Speaker 4: Yeah? 3224 02:58:48,560 --> 02:58:54,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, in general that is my goal for you, James. Yeah, 3225 02:58:54,680 --> 02:58:56,560 Speaker 2: I can see. I'd really crush it in that round. 3226 02:58:57,080 --> 02:59:00,000 Speaker 2: I do love a good law Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 3227 02:59:00,360 --> 02:59:03,200 Speaker 1: Charene can take out Ted Cruz who you can. You 3228 02:59:03,280 --> 02:59:07,400 Speaker 1: can be Charene's John Mitchell. Wow, it's a fun little 3229 02:59:07,440 --> 02:59:12,920 Speaker 1: water gate ya for every I will be hiding Karen's 3230 02:59:12,959 --> 02:59:13,680 Speaker 1: secret meetings. 3231 02:59:14,320 --> 02:59:17,480 Speaker 2: I'm hoping for Haldoman myself. That's the Oh, that's the 3232 02:59:17,600 --> 02:59:18,040 Speaker 2: guy to be. 3233 02:59:18,240 --> 02:59:20,400 Speaker 13: Yeah, I want to go back for like further than that, 3234 02:59:20,480 --> 02:59:23,320 Speaker 13: you know, like when presidents were chads and like Roosevelt 3235 02:59:23,400 --> 02:59:27,960 Speaker 13: got shot five times. I can see Scharene having that 3236 02:59:28,080 --> 02:59:33,240 Speaker 13: kind of energy. Sure, yeah, we're all in on Charen 3237 02:59:33,400 --> 02:59:36,600 Speaker 13: maybe best too, Yeah, don't choose Serene. 3238 02:59:38,160 --> 02:59:41,760 Speaker 2: A book was enough for Teddy Roosevelt people. It's changed. 3239 02:59:44,160 --> 02:59:48,520 Speaker 13: Return no jokes aside, Like I came to America very 3240 02:59:48,560 --> 02:59:53,160 Speaker 13: differently from this, and like, uh, I recently became a 3241 02:59:53,240 --> 02:59:57,080 Speaker 13: citizen after a long time, and like you always feel 3242 02:59:57,120 --> 02:59:59,760 Speaker 13: very precarious when you live here and you're not, so 3243 03:00:01,320 --> 03:00:03,480 Speaker 13: I just want Like one thing that I noticed was 3244 03:00:03,520 --> 03:00:06,000 Speaker 13: that so many of the folks down there at one point, 3245 03:00:06,000 --> 03:00:07,520 Speaker 13: all of us one point I don't know, were also 3246 03:00:07,640 --> 03:00:11,600 Speaker 13: people who had come here themselves and like had different 3247 03:00:11,640 --> 03:00:13,840 Speaker 13: stories and we talked about. Like another thing I think 3248 03:00:13,959 --> 03:00:16,920 Speaker 13: is really important, actually it's like just because people are 3249 03:00:16,959 --> 03:00:19,240 Speaker 13: in a shitty situation doesn't mean that they are not 3250 03:00:19,760 --> 03:00:21,920 Speaker 13: like people. Like sometimes it can be really easy to 3251 03:00:21,959 --> 03:00:23,959 Speaker 13: be like bottle of water, by bottle of water, hego, 3252 03:00:24,000 --> 03:00:26,760 Speaker 13: bottle of water, chairs, like let's want to fucking talk 3253 03:00:26,840 --> 03:00:29,040 Speaker 13: to you, and like how is your day, or like 3254 03:00:29,120 --> 03:00:30,440 Speaker 13: what's your favorite football team? 3255 03:00:30,720 --> 03:00:34,160 Speaker 2: Like like that can be a really valuable way of. 3256 03:00:34,240 --> 03:00:37,279 Speaker 13: Being like, look, I understand that the government is treating 3257 03:00:37,360 --> 03:00:41,680 Speaker 13: you like shit right now, and that's not with my consent, 3258 03:00:41,959 --> 03:00:43,520 Speaker 13: Like I are. 3259 03:00:43,560 --> 03:00:46,320 Speaker 14: Human connection because they aren't treated like humans. So it's 3260 03:00:46,360 --> 03:00:48,119 Speaker 14: like nice to remember that's like, oh, I'm. 3261 03:00:49,080 --> 03:00:52,880 Speaker 13: Like yeah totally, someone seeing me, yes exactly, and just 3262 03:00:52,959 --> 03:00:56,120 Speaker 13: being like we're in community, like we are here to 3263 03:00:56,200 --> 03:00:57,640 Speaker 13: do whatever we can to make this a little bit 3264 03:00:57,720 --> 03:01:00,440 Speaker 13: less fucking barbaric. Like I always think I should buy 3265 03:01:00,520 --> 03:01:03,080 Speaker 13: like soft toys for the kids. I've spent a lot 3266 03:01:03,080 --> 03:01:04,760 Speaker 13: of money on soft toys for kids over the years. 3267 03:01:04,800 --> 03:01:09,000 Speaker 13: But remember one time we cleared out at Costco in Tiuan, 3268 03:01:09,600 --> 03:01:11,760 Speaker 13: Like I had them morning the bed of a pickup 3269 03:01:11,800 --> 03:01:13,440 Speaker 13: truck and they were like trying to fly out as 3270 03:01:13,480 --> 03:01:14,440 Speaker 13: we drove down the freeway. 3271 03:01:14,520 --> 03:01:15,800 Speaker 4: It was a good time. 3272 03:01:16,959 --> 03:01:20,160 Speaker 13: But yeah, it's I think that common humanity is super 3273 03:01:20,240 --> 03:01:23,440 Speaker 13: important if people have language skills and they want to help, 3274 03:01:23,680 --> 03:01:27,600 Speaker 13: Like there are always organizations to help migrants, so American 3275 03:01:27,640 --> 03:01:30,480 Speaker 13: Friends Service Committee is a really good one. I don't 3276 03:01:30,520 --> 03:01:32,640 Speaker 13: think they would care if you were not a person 3277 03:01:32,680 --> 03:01:34,480 Speaker 13: of faith. I think lots of the people helping out 3278 03:01:34,520 --> 03:01:36,320 Speaker 13: with them are not They're just nice people. 3279 03:01:37,200 --> 03:01:40,840 Speaker 14: So there are so many languages apparently that need translating, 3280 03:01:40,920 --> 03:01:42,360 Speaker 14: Like it's not just Spanish. I think a lot of 3281 03:01:42,400 --> 03:01:44,480 Speaker 14: people assume it would just be like I don't know Spanish, 3282 03:01:44,640 --> 03:01:47,160 Speaker 14: I'm not going to go. But so many other languages 3283 03:01:47,200 --> 03:01:47,879 Speaker 14: that would be helpful. 3284 03:01:48,400 --> 03:01:52,880 Speaker 13: Yeah, Like I speak French, and I honestly spent as 3285 03:01:52,920 --> 03:01:54,840 Speaker 13: much time at the board of speaking French as Spanish. 3286 03:01:55,920 --> 03:01:58,520 Speaker 13: I have like passable communication in Haitian creole, and they 3287 03:01:58,600 --> 03:02:01,520 Speaker 13: can sort of if some people speak like more formal French, 3288 03:02:02,280 --> 03:02:04,280 Speaker 13: who a Haitian, so I can speak to them, But yeah, 3289 03:02:04,480 --> 03:02:07,720 Speaker 13: I don't speak Taiji, ko Uzbek or Russian or Vietnamese, 3290 03:02:08,720 --> 03:02:11,560 Speaker 13: so like, yeah, those people are therefore it's harder for 3291 03:02:11,680 --> 03:02:16,040 Speaker 13: them to access solidarity right and to talk to people 3292 03:02:16,080 --> 03:02:17,800 Speaker 13: and to be seen, Like we can try our best 3293 03:02:17,840 --> 03:02:22,480 Speaker 13: with cell phone apps. The person who had been taken 3294 03:02:22,520 --> 03:02:26,760 Speaker 13: to a hospital was Vietnamese and was just doing a 3295 03:02:26,959 --> 03:02:29,840 Speaker 13: star Wark job of like obviously they were to the 3296 03:02:30,040 --> 03:02:33,160 Speaker 13: north of the border, so among the volunteers basically, and 3297 03:02:33,760 --> 03:02:36,000 Speaker 13: we were using our phones to talk and they were 3298 03:02:36,000 --> 03:02:38,560 Speaker 13: helping us distribute shit right, and then helping explain to 3299 03:02:38,640 --> 03:02:41,560 Speaker 13: the Vietnamese people, hey, like you have to be in 3300 03:02:41,640 --> 03:02:43,160 Speaker 13: this line if you want this, at this line if 3301 03:02:43,200 --> 03:02:46,440 Speaker 13: you want that, and like, so that was nice, and 3302 03:02:46,600 --> 03:02:50,800 Speaker 13: it's always like great to see like people empowered by 3303 03:02:50,840 --> 03:02:53,840 Speaker 13: that process, Like they're not just like asking for stuff, 3304 03:02:53,879 --> 03:02:55,959 Speaker 13: they're also helping get other people stuff, and I think 3305 03:02:56,040 --> 03:03:00,280 Speaker 13: that that helps both parties. So like this is means 3306 03:03:00,320 --> 03:03:03,000 Speaker 13: of like I guess like people call mutilated solidarity not charity, 3307 03:03:03,000 --> 03:03:06,520 Speaker 13: which I think that illustrates really well. You know, like 3308 03:03:06,600 --> 03:03:08,560 Speaker 13: all these people are there to be in solidarity with 3309 03:03:08,640 --> 03:03:10,840 Speaker 13: people who they consider to be members of their community, 3310 03:03:10,920 --> 03:03:14,000 Speaker 13: not not to like gain some carmic reward or whatever 3311 03:03:14,160 --> 03:03:18,040 Speaker 13: like people, And I think that's a really laudable thing. 3312 03:03:18,160 --> 03:03:20,160 Speaker 13: It's something we should all participate in if we can. 3313 03:03:20,879 --> 03:03:24,160 Speaker 13: I understand that everyone's near the border, but like, yeah, 3314 03:03:24,280 --> 03:03:26,520 Speaker 13: we can't change this that we're all supposed to vote 3315 03:03:26,520 --> 03:03:28,160 Speaker 13: for Joe Biden because he wouldn't be a piece of 3316 03:03:28,160 --> 03:03:30,680 Speaker 13: shit to migrants, and he's been a complete piece of 3317 03:03:30,720 --> 03:03:33,600 Speaker 13: shit to migrants for the entirety of his time in office, 3318 03:03:33,640 --> 03:03:36,560 Speaker 13: and I sincerely believe he will be a piece of 3319 03:03:36,600 --> 03:03:40,680 Speaker 13: shit to migrants if he is elected again. So you 3320 03:03:40,760 --> 03:03:44,800 Speaker 13: can't fucking change this by voting for someone. 3321 03:03:44,840 --> 03:03:45,360 Speaker 2: I wish you could. 3322 03:03:45,400 --> 03:03:47,240 Speaker 13: I wish it was that easy, but like I sadly, 3323 03:03:47,280 --> 03:03:51,879 Speaker 13: it requires your active participation. And yeah, I'm just constantly 3324 03:03:52,120 --> 03:03:56,600 Speaker 13: impressed by people who will. Like the people from Free 3325 03:03:56,600 --> 03:04:00,680 Speaker 13: Shiit Collective, they bought their entire family right them a message. 3326 03:04:01,280 --> 03:04:03,360 Speaker 13: They were like, yeah, we're on our way, what do 3327 03:04:03,440 --> 03:04:06,800 Speaker 13: you need blankets? Okay, we have like one hundred blankets 3328 03:04:07,480 --> 03:04:11,680 Speaker 13: and a generator. And within an hour at least some 3329 03:04:11,800 --> 03:04:13,600 Speaker 13: of those people, I had a warmer place to sleep. 3330 03:04:13,760 --> 03:04:15,760 Speaker 13: Right before that, I was giving out the blankets I 3331 03:04:15,840 --> 03:04:18,039 Speaker 13: had for camping in my truck. But I have two 3332 03:04:18,080 --> 03:04:19,040 Speaker 13: sleeping bags in my truck. 3333 03:04:19,120 --> 03:04:19,680 Speaker 2: It's not enough. 3334 03:04:20,920 --> 03:04:22,720 Speaker 13: So yeah, I think that's something we can all do 3335 03:04:22,840 --> 03:04:27,440 Speaker 13: in our own communities. But right now, again, I guess 3336 03:04:28,360 --> 03:04:30,760 Speaker 13: Biden's administration are back on the bullshit at the border, 3337 03:04:30,879 --> 03:04:32,119 Speaker 13: and it's. 3338 03:04:31,959 --> 03:04:33,800 Speaker 2: Important that people just pay attention to it. 3339 03:04:34,000 --> 03:04:37,080 Speaker 13: Right I guess you could write your Congress people, but 3340 03:04:37,680 --> 03:04:39,440 Speaker 13: they didn't do shit last time, they won't do shit 3341 03:04:39,520 --> 03:04:43,000 Speaker 13: this time. But people can show sort of diarity in 3342 03:04:43,040 --> 03:04:44,920 Speaker 13: any way or lend their language skills. I think now 3343 03:04:44,959 --> 03:04:46,160 Speaker 13: it's a really important time to do that. 3344 03:04:48,600 --> 03:04:53,040 Speaker 14: Yeah, it's SIT's frustrating because the border in general just 3345 03:04:53,120 --> 03:04:56,199 Speaker 14: becomes like a political talking point, right, like Biden uses 3346 03:04:56,280 --> 03:04:58,959 Speaker 14: it for his benefit and then it's like I'll pick 3347 03:04:58,959 --> 03:05:01,360 Speaker 14: it up when I needed to get Yeah, whatever it is, 3348 03:05:01,520 --> 03:05:02,920 Speaker 14: it's pretty infuriating. 3349 03:05:03,600 --> 03:05:04,480 Speaker 2: It's fucking not. 3350 03:05:04,680 --> 03:05:06,880 Speaker 13: Yeah, it's incredibly infuriating for me to see like a 3351 03:05:06,959 --> 03:05:08,840 Speaker 13: guarantee you, I was stand there yesterday when no other 3352 03:05:08,959 --> 03:05:12,360 Speaker 13: media folks will be there today. Folks who haven't been 3353 03:05:12,400 --> 03:05:15,080 Speaker 13: there since May will roll up again, right, who haven't 3354 03:05:15,120 --> 03:05:18,240 Speaker 13: covered the border, who don't have a working knowledge of 3355 03:05:19,160 --> 03:05:21,280 Speaker 13: like what's happened since Title forty two, which is the 3356 03:05:21,400 --> 03:05:25,000 Speaker 13: apprehensions have dropped, by the way, like travel across the 3357 03:05:25,040 --> 03:05:26,960 Speaker 13: border has got a lot lower since Title forty two, 3358 03:05:27,000 --> 03:05:29,040 Speaker 13: which is what we were told that to opposite of 3359 03:05:29,120 --> 03:05:31,480 Speaker 13: what every op ed told us was going to happen, 3360 03:05:32,400 --> 03:05:35,200 Speaker 13: because people maybe should not be righting about the border 3361 03:05:35,240 --> 03:05:36,160 Speaker 13: when they live in DC. 3362 03:05:36,120 --> 03:05:36,560 Speaker 2: Or New York. 3363 03:05:37,360 --> 03:05:39,880 Speaker 13: But yeah, Biden will come back to the border next 3364 03:05:39,920 --> 03:05:44,560 Speaker 13: time he gets attacked by Republicans on boarder stuff. And 3365 03:05:44,720 --> 03:05:48,400 Speaker 13: until then, like these people will be treated as if 3366 03:05:48,400 --> 03:05:50,680 Speaker 13: they're numbers or if they don't matter, and like each 3367 03:05:50,760 --> 03:05:52,959 Speaker 13: of them has a story and a reason for being here, 3368 03:05:53,320 --> 03:05:59,400 Speaker 13: and they're not just numbers, they're all people. And every 3369 03:05:59,440 --> 03:06:01,640 Speaker 13: time someone dies trying to come to this country to 3370 03:06:01,680 --> 03:06:03,959 Speaker 13: be safe, it's a tragedy, and it's a preventable tragedy. 3371 03:06:05,360 --> 03:06:08,040 Speaker 13: And it's one that the Democrats are just as complicit 3372 03:06:08,120 --> 03:06:12,120 Speaker 13: as Republicans in. Yeah, you know, we've spoken a lot 3373 03:06:12,160 --> 03:06:14,520 Speaker 13: about groups you can you can go to, right, Like 3374 03:06:15,080 --> 03:06:19,720 Speaker 13: we spoke about border Kindness, we spoke about Borderlands Relief Collective. 3375 03:06:20,200 --> 03:06:22,119 Speaker 13: Like there are a million and one ways to help. 3376 03:06:22,160 --> 03:06:25,400 Speaker 13: I won't detail them all now, but yeah, it's something 3377 03:06:25,680 --> 03:06:30,240 Speaker 13: that like we can't erase the Like I feel genuinely 3378 03:06:30,280 --> 03:06:32,240 Speaker 13: ashamed every time I'm down there, you know, to be 3379 03:06:32,760 --> 03:06:36,560 Speaker 13: American now. But it's just hard when people are like, hey, 3380 03:06:36,920 --> 03:06:38,400 Speaker 13: what's going to happen, you have to be like, well, 3381 03:06:38,800 --> 03:06:41,000 Speaker 13: we don't know, but like you might be separated from 3382 03:06:41,000 --> 03:06:43,200 Speaker 13: your family, you might be detained. They're probably going to 3383 03:06:43,240 --> 03:06:45,280 Speaker 13: take most of your clothes. They might take your belt off. 3384 03:06:45,360 --> 03:06:47,480 Speaker 13: You know, you can wear one jacket, one shirt, your pants, 3385 03:06:47,560 --> 03:06:51,400 Speaker 13: and your shoes. They might take your shoelaces and venues 3386 03:06:51,440 --> 03:06:53,879 Speaker 13: go into the fucking abyss of processing. 3387 03:06:53,959 --> 03:06:54,080 Speaker 11: Right. 3388 03:06:54,120 --> 03:06:55,640 Speaker 13: There might be years till you get your core date 3389 03:06:55,640 --> 03:06:57,959 Speaker 13: and you might not have a right to work until then. 3390 03:06:58,560 --> 03:07:01,240 Speaker 13: But it might cost you twelve grand to get a 3391 03:07:01,280 --> 03:07:03,119 Speaker 13: lawyer to represent you. How do you get that money? 3392 03:07:03,160 --> 03:07:03,480 Speaker 2: Fucked you? 3393 03:07:03,600 --> 03:07:08,200 Speaker 13: I know, you know, And yeah it's deep. I feel 3394 03:07:08,240 --> 03:07:11,040 Speaker 13: really ashamed, but yeah, all we can do is just 3395 03:07:11,120 --> 03:07:12,160 Speaker 13: try and help however we can. 3396 03:07:13,000 --> 03:07:18,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all right, Yeah, sorry that was really depressing, 3397 03:07:18,800 --> 03:07:21,640 Speaker 2: was that? No, No, it's good. 3398 03:07:23,520 --> 03:07:26,320 Speaker 14: I really admire that instead of like kind of wallowing 3399 03:07:26,360 --> 03:07:28,160 Speaker 14: in the shame, You're like, I actually want to do 3400 03:07:28,280 --> 03:07:30,160 Speaker 14: something and it's okay that I feel shame. 3401 03:07:30,240 --> 03:07:30,800 Speaker 2: That's valid. 3402 03:07:31,120 --> 03:07:33,920 Speaker 14: It's both things can be true. I can be helpful 3403 03:07:33,959 --> 03:07:36,360 Speaker 14: and I can also have perspective on it. 3404 03:07:36,560 --> 03:07:40,200 Speaker 13: So yeah, yeah it helps to help helps me. It 3405 03:07:40,240 --> 03:07:43,560 Speaker 13: helps other people to feel active, not like acted upon. 3406 03:07:44,400 --> 03:07:47,080 Speaker 13: And that's why folks on who are migrants want to 3407 03:07:47,120 --> 03:07:50,440 Speaker 13: also participate in migrant aid right, like even folks are 3408 03:07:50,480 --> 03:07:52,400 Speaker 13: in between the war right now, like organizing that the 3409 03:07:52,720 --> 03:07:56,000 Speaker 13: phone charging queue because it helps to not just feel 3410 03:07:56,040 --> 03:07:57,879 Speaker 13: acted upon and remove the agency. 3411 03:07:58,480 --> 03:08:00,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, do you. 3412 03:08:01,200 --> 03:08:02,520 Speaker 13: Mutual aid if you can? 3413 03:08:03,240 --> 03:08:03,440 Speaker 10: Yeah? 3414 03:08:04,120 --> 03:08:07,760 Speaker 2: Be nice? Yeah, be nice. Buck the border patrol. 3415 03:08:08,320 --> 03:08:08,760 Speaker 13: Mm hmm. 3416 03:08:09,160 --> 03:08:11,120 Speaker 2: I think that that more or less covers it. 3417 03:08:11,360 --> 03:08:15,000 Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's our message, that Sharin's 3418 03:08:15,040 --> 03:08:15,880 Speaker 13: presidential slogan. 3419 03:08:16,080 --> 03:08:17,840 Speaker 14: Yes, that's my campaign. 3420 03:08:21,040 --> 03:08:21,600 Speaker 2: I'll work on that. 3421 03:08:21,800 --> 03:08:22,400 Speaker 6: Okay, yeah. 3422 03:08:23,040 --> 03:08:42,440 Speaker 2: Five, it's it's another union episode of Vick had happen 3423 03:08:42,520 --> 03:08:45,960 Speaker 2: here in the podcast where we do a lot of things, 3424 03:08:46,000 --> 03:08:48,040 Speaker 2: but one of one of which is talking about unions, 3425 03:08:48,040 --> 03:08:50,640 Speaker 2: one of which is not doing great intros, it's me 3426 03:08:50,760 --> 03:08:54,200 Speaker 2: and Mia Wong and today I'm here to talk about 3427 03:08:54,320 --> 03:08:57,440 Speaker 2: a union and a strike and a bunch of other stuff. 3428 03:08:57,800 --> 03:08:59,920 Speaker 2: And with me to talk about this is Tyler Fellini, 3429 03:09:00,080 --> 03:09:02,640 Speaker 2: he was an organizer with Portland Jobs with Justice and 3430 03:09:02,680 --> 03:09:05,440 Speaker 2: also a former New Seasons worker. And Alex Gage, who 3431 03:09:05,480 --> 03:09:07,920 Speaker 2: was an organizer in store rep for the New Season's 3432 03:09:08,000 --> 03:09:12,360 Speaker 2: labor union shop in ourber Lodge. Yeah both YouTube, Welcome 3433 03:09:12,400 --> 03:09:15,480 Speaker 2: to the show. Yeah, thanks for having us, happy to 3434 03:09:15,520 --> 03:09:17,720 Speaker 2: be here. Yeah, I'm glad, glad to talk with you too. 3435 03:09:17,800 --> 03:09:20,320 Speaker 2: So I guess before we get into the sort of 3436 03:09:20,440 --> 03:09:23,840 Speaker 2: current stuff, I wanted to talk a bit about how 3437 03:09:24,879 --> 03:09:28,880 Speaker 2: how the certain New Seasons union was formed and you 3438 03:09:28,959 --> 03:09:32,160 Speaker 2: know what that sort of process looked like and how 3439 03:09:32,240 --> 03:09:33,440 Speaker 2: it's been going since then. 3440 03:09:34,280 --> 03:09:35,400 Speaker 6: Yeah, I can speak to that. 3441 03:09:36,160 --> 03:09:40,880 Speaker 16: So the initial unionizing effort started at the store that 3442 03:09:40,959 --> 03:09:44,240 Speaker 16: I was working at, seven Corners, and we actually the 3443 03:09:44,360 --> 03:09:49,200 Speaker 16: first conversation we had was April first, the same day 3444 03:09:49,240 --> 03:09:52,000 Speaker 16: that Amazon labor union went public and won their electional 3445 03:09:53,160 --> 03:09:56,000 Speaker 16: so there's like a really inspiring moment for us. That 3446 03:09:56,240 --> 03:09:59,680 Speaker 16: spurred a conversation on the shop floor with a couple coworkers, 3447 03:10:01,280 --> 03:10:04,120 Speaker 16: which quickly escalated to six of us meeting in a 3448 03:10:04,160 --> 03:10:07,280 Speaker 16: nearby co workers backyard. We talked about the issues, and 3449 03:10:07,320 --> 03:10:09,440 Speaker 16: we were all hitting the same things, you know, Like 3450 03:10:09,520 --> 03:10:12,320 Speaker 16: we were all upset with the tenants policy, the way 3451 03:10:12,360 --> 03:10:14,560 Speaker 16: that New Seasons was treating us and had been treating 3452 03:10:14,640 --> 03:10:17,440 Speaker 16: us during COVID. We're also upset with our pay, which 3453 03:10:17,520 --> 03:10:19,160 Speaker 16: is obscene and does not keep up with the cost 3454 03:10:19,200 --> 03:10:21,879 Speaker 16: of living in Portland, organ which is a very expensive city. 3455 03:10:23,400 --> 03:10:26,080 Speaker 16: So and we were also really upset with the healthcare 3456 03:10:26,160 --> 03:10:28,240 Speaker 16: that we have offered and how it's kind of deteriorated 3457 03:10:28,280 --> 03:10:31,200 Speaker 16: over the years, especially for New Seasons as a company 3458 03:10:31,240 --> 03:10:32,760 Speaker 16: that has a lot of people who've been there for 3459 03:10:32,879 --> 03:10:35,000 Speaker 16: years and so there were a lot of people who've 3460 03:10:35,040 --> 03:10:39,080 Speaker 16: seen just the downward decline. So those early meetings went 3461 03:10:39,160 --> 03:10:43,199 Speaker 16: really well. We talked to coworkers on the floor discreetly 3462 03:10:43,400 --> 03:10:46,920 Speaker 16: and everybody was resonating with what we were saying. We 3463 03:10:47,040 --> 03:10:49,880 Speaker 16: made a lot of progress really fast, and then we 3464 03:10:50,000 --> 03:10:53,400 Speaker 16: had a meeting at a local bar here in Portland, 3465 03:10:53,440 --> 03:10:57,040 Speaker 16: Workers Tap, which huge shoutout of them. They are an 3466 03:10:57,040 --> 03:11:01,000 Speaker 16: amazing space for a lot of burgeoning independent unions to 3467 03:11:01,040 --> 03:11:03,160 Speaker 16: have some of their early meetings. So we met there 3468 03:11:03,560 --> 03:11:06,560 Speaker 16: with more members at our store, the Seven Corners location, 3469 03:11:07,520 --> 03:11:09,040 Speaker 16: and I think we had like thirty people there, which 3470 03:11:09,080 --> 03:11:10,600 Speaker 16: is a huge turnout for a. 3471 03:11:10,680 --> 03:11:11,960 Speaker 6: First showing of a meeting. 3472 03:11:12,040 --> 03:11:13,199 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. 3473 03:11:13,760 --> 03:11:17,440 Speaker 16: And then from there we moved pretty fast to getting 3474 03:11:18,240 --> 03:11:22,400 Speaker 16: cards signed for showing of interest, and so in less 3475 03:11:22,440 --> 03:11:24,600 Speaker 16: than two months we were actually filing our petition with 3476 03:11:24,640 --> 03:11:26,400 Speaker 16: the NLRB, which is unheard of. 3477 03:11:26,560 --> 03:11:30,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's amazing, especially for a grocery store union. That 3478 03:11:30,520 --> 03:11:31,119 Speaker 2: is wild. 3479 03:11:32,000 --> 03:11:32,200 Speaker 10: Yeah. 3480 03:11:32,560 --> 03:11:32,760 Speaker 6: Yeah. 3481 03:11:33,280 --> 03:11:35,600 Speaker 16: As soon as we went public, workers at all these 3482 03:11:35,640 --> 03:11:38,320 Speaker 16: other stores reached out to us. Our Instagram blew up. 3483 03:11:38,920 --> 03:11:41,280 Speaker 16: People were excited but wanted to figure out how to 3484 03:11:41,320 --> 03:11:43,560 Speaker 16: do it at their store. So we were kind of 3485 03:11:43,720 --> 03:11:47,320 Speaker 16: simultaneously trying to balance the plates of like keeping our 3486 03:11:47,360 --> 03:11:50,760 Speaker 16: store going and also helping other stores go and you know, 3487 03:11:50,840 --> 03:11:52,800 Speaker 16: by the end of the summer we rolled into we 3488 03:11:52,879 --> 03:11:55,160 Speaker 16: had our election, I want to say in September, and 3489 03:11:55,240 --> 03:11:57,199 Speaker 16: by the end of the summer there were multiple stores 3490 03:11:57,240 --> 03:11:58,959 Speaker 16: that had gone public and announced. 3491 03:11:59,080 --> 03:11:59,680 Speaker 6: And here we are. 3492 03:11:59,800 --> 03:12:03,800 Speaker 16: You know, it's barely been a year since our first 3493 03:12:03,840 --> 03:12:05,720 Speaker 16: election win. It's barely been a year since then, and 3494 03:12:05,920 --> 03:12:08,840 Speaker 16: we have over nine hundred members, almost a thousand members 3495 03:12:08,879 --> 03:12:10,080 Speaker 16: in this very new union. 3496 03:12:10,600 --> 03:12:14,520 Speaker 2: That's incredible. That gets into another thing I'm interested about, 3497 03:12:14,640 --> 03:12:18,880 Speaker 2: which is Portland's the city that has been in the 3498 03:12:19,000 --> 03:12:20,880 Speaker 2: last I mean, I would say probably the last five years, 3499 03:12:20,920 --> 03:12:23,600 Speaker 2: but especially in like the last couple of years, it's 3500 03:12:23,600 --> 03:12:27,080 Speaker 2: been really really active in terms of in terms of 3501 03:12:27,160 --> 03:12:30,240 Speaker 2: union organizing, in terms of sort of especially especially independent unions, 3502 03:12:30,240 --> 03:12:33,440 Speaker 2: there's been an enormous number of them. The actual number 3503 03:12:33,480 --> 03:12:36,520 Speaker 2: of workers being organized is really high. And yeah, I 3504 03:12:36,600 --> 03:12:39,480 Speaker 2: mean you talked about having like having this bar as 3505 03:12:39,480 --> 03:12:42,000 Speaker 2: a sort of space you could do meetings. Has there 3506 03:12:42,080 --> 03:12:46,240 Speaker 2: been any other stuff, I mean, from from other independent unions, 3507 03:12:46,360 --> 03:12:47,959 Speaker 2: from other I mean, just from the fact that there's 3508 03:12:48,000 --> 03:12:50,720 Speaker 2: so many like things happening that have like changed the 3509 03:12:50,800 --> 03:12:54,320 Speaker 2: dynamics of how these union organization drives have been going. 3510 03:12:55,959 --> 03:12:59,280 Speaker 16: Yeah, So early on, you know, we were weighing our 3511 03:12:59,320 --> 03:13:01,640 Speaker 16: options as far as like did we want to join 3512 03:13:01,760 --> 03:13:03,880 Speaker 16: an existing union or go independent? 3513 03:13:04,240 --> 03:13:05,360 Speaker 6: Like what did we want to do there? 3514 03:13:05,560 --> 03:13:08,119 Speaker 16: And a lot of that information is hard to find 3515 03:13:08,160 --> 03:13:11,040 Speaker 16: if you don't know the language that you're looking for, 3516 03:13:11,200 --> 03:13:14,680 Speaker 16: it's not really accessible to the average worker. But we 3517 03:13:14,760 --> 03:13:18,320 Speaker 16: found a lot of solidarity in folks who had been 3518 03:13:18,360 --> 03:13:21,800 Speaker 16: involved in other independent union efforts. Specifically, we met with 3519 03:13:22,080 --> 03:13:25,080 Speaker 16: Mark and Luis at a Burgerville workers union. They offered 3520 03:13:25,160 --> 03:13:27,800 Speaker 16: a top Yeah, they were great. They were some of 3521 03:13:27,840 --> 03:13:30,760 Speaker 16: the early folks to reach out and help us. We 3522 03:13:30,840 --> 03:13:32,360 Speaker 16: were also able to talk to some of the folks 3523 03:13:32,400 --> 03:13:36,400 Speaker 16: at ILW Local five that represents palasworkers and many others 3524 03:13:37,280 --> 03:13:41,080 Speaker 16: and get some support there. Portland is definitely a labor town, 3525 03:13:41,600 --> 03:13:45,120 Speaker 16: uh And the solidarity that we felt kind of across 3526 03:13:45,160 --> 03:13:47,560 Speaker 16: the board was great, you know, especially like early on 3527 03:13:47,760 --> 03:13:49,640 Speaker 16: when we had a lot of questions and we didn't 3528 03:13:49,680 --> 03:13:52,240 Speaker 16: have any answers and we didn't have many resources to 3529 03:13:52,720 --> 03:13:54,320 Speaker 16: you know, hire a lawyer and ask them. 3530 03:13:54,640 --> 03:13:58,160 Speaker 2: Uh. So I want I wanted to go back a 3531 03:13:58,240 --> 03:14:01,200 Speaker 2: little bit to talk about sort of the influence of 3532 03:14:03,240 --> 03:14:06,920 Speaker 2: the sort of influence of the news about the Amazon 3533 03:14:07,040 --> 03:14:10,320 Speaker 2: labor union going wide and how that sort of worked. 3534 03:14:10,800 --> 03:14:13,880 Speaker 2: Have you seen a sort of similar thing with other 3535 03:14:14,640 --> 03:14:18,119 Speaker 2: like not just sort of not not just New Seasons shops, 3536 03:14:18,160 --> 03:14:20,320 Speaker 2: but have you seen other shops that sort of like 3537 03:14:20,400 --> 03:14:23,039 Speaker 2: decided to start organizing after y'all came out. 3538 03:14:23,640 --> 03:14:27,440 Speaker 16: I think that there is a general energy among the 3539 03:14:27,520 --> 03:14:31,480 Speaker 16: rank and file, right that some of the old ways 3540 03:14:31,800 --> 03:14:35,560 Speaker 16: that unions are organizing were not the most representative of 3541 03:14:35,640 --> 03:14:39,080 Speaker 16: the workers, which is in part you know, the eighties, right, 3542 03:14:39,200 --> 03:14:41,440 Speaker 16: and so kind of why we've seen sort of union 3543 03:14:41,480 --> 03:14:44,959 Speaker 16: representation stagnant. But we're seeing a major shift, right. We've 3544 03:14:45,000 --> 03:14:48,840 Speaker 16: got a lot of educated workers doing low wage jobs, 3545 03:14:49,480 --> 03:14:52,520 Speaker 16: which that condition existed in the nineteen thirties and led 3546 03:14:52,560 --> 03:14:55,600 Speaker 16: to a major explosion in militant unions. So I think 3547 03:14:55,640 --> 03:14:58,080 Speaker 16: there's a major parallel there, and it's not just Amazon 3548 03:14:58,160 --> 03:15:00,800 Speaker 16: liber unions. Also, you know the Starbucks workers know campaign 3549 03:15:01,160 --> 03:15:04,240 Speaker 16: it's huge, right, and those are workers who service workers, 3550 03:15:04,320 --> 03:15:09,000 Speaker 16: restaurant workers historically have been left out of labor or underrepresented, 3551 03:15:09,080 --> 03:15:13,640 Speaker 16: similar to healthcare workers and just care workers generally, And 3552 03:15:13,760 --> 03:15:16,480 Speaker 16: that I think is kind of the stereotype of like 3553 03:15:16,720 --> 03:15:19,240 Speaker 16: the working class as like a trad white guy in 3554 03:15:19,320 --> 03:15:22,840 Speaker 16: a factory and we're seeing that severely upended right now, 3555 03:15:22,879 --> 03:15:23,720 Speaker 16: which is really exciting. 3556 03:15:24,240 --> 03:15:26,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's that's a That's another dynamic I think 3557 03:15:26,520 --> 03:15:29,920 Speaker 2: is really is really interesting, particularly in Portland, is that 3558 03:15:30,640 --> 03:15:32,680 Speaker 2: it seems to be a lot of independent unions. And 3559 03:15:32,760 --> 03:15:36,480 Speaker 2: it seems to be I think partially because even in 3560 03:15:36,560 --> 03:15:38,720 Speaker 2: the midst of the fact that like very clearly people 3561 03:15:39,200 --> 03:15:42,000 Speaker 2: want to organize, there's been a lot of conservatism on 3562 03:15:42,879 --> 03:15:45,480 Speaker 2: the part of the sort of like larger distant unions. 3563 03:15:45,520 --> 03:15:48,560 Speaker 2: You don't really want to like throw an enormous amount 3564 03:15:48,560 --> 03:15:51,320 Speaker 2: of money into these organizing drives, which means, you know, 3565 03:15:51,480 --> 03:15:54,400 Speaker 2: if if the stuff is going to happen, it's it's 3566 03:15:54,520 --> 03:15:58,840 Speaker 2: it's the independent unions. And yeah, I don't know, like 3567 03:15:58,959 --> 03:16:01,360 Speaker 2: I I think I think your point about sort of 3568 03:16:02,080 --> 03:16:03,640 Speaker 2: I think your point about the sort of both both 3569 03:16:03,640 --> 03:16:08,560 Speaker 2: the highly educated workers thing and the way that you know, 3570 03:16:08,680 --> 03:16:11,760 Speaker 2: sort of what's constitutionally considered a worker and what unions 3571 03:16:11,760 --> 03:16:15,120 Speaker 2: are willing to sort of throw money at or tied together. 3572 03:16:15,200 --> 03:16:18,000 Speaker 2: Because yeah, I mean, you know, like the shops that 3573 03:16:18,080 --> 03:16:21,000 Speaker 2: you're working in, the shops are getting organized just aren't 3574 03:16:21,040 --> 03:16:25,800 Speaker 2: the kind of thing that anyone's been organizing for like ever, 3575 03:16:26,879 --> 03:16:28,360 Speaker 2: it's very at least not since like the eighties. 3576 03:16:29,480 --> 03:16:33,160 Speaker 10: Yeah, and I think it makes sense why they don't organize. 3577 03:16:33,200 --> 03:16:36,560 Speaker 10: It's freaking hard. It's a lot of work, and there's 3578 03:16:36,560 --> 03:16:40,320 Speaker 10: a lot of turnover, and you don't see those same faces. 3579 03:16:40,440 --> 03:16:45,480 Speaker 10: That's why we can get from having our first meeting 3580 03:16:45,640 --> 03:16:48,960 Speaker 10: to filing for election in two months, because if it 3581 03:16:49,040 --> 03:16:51,440 Speaker 10: doesn't happen in two months, it's never going to happen. 3582 03:16:52,040 --> 03:16:53,879 Speaker 10: And we get it done, we get it done fast, 3583 03:16:54,680 --> 03:16:58,760 Speaker 10: and then we see all these other like as a 3584 03:16:58,840 --> 03:17:03,840 Speaker 10: grocery store, we get deliveries from Bigger Union, you know, 3585 03:17:04,080 --> 03:17:07,240 Speaker 10: drivers and such, and we've seen what's happened with their 3586 03:17:07,360 --> 03:17:13,080 Speaker 10: campaigns where if they're not like totally invested, they can 3587 03:17:13,120 --> 03:17:19,119 Speaker 10: get decertified within a matter of weeks. But we haven't 3588 03:17:19,200 --> 03:17:20,279 Speaker 10: had any of that yet. 3589 03:17:20,920 --> 03:17:23,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is really impressive. And you know, that's another 3590 03:17:23,760 --> 03:17:26,240 Speaker 2: thing I'm interested. I've been asking a lot of people 3591 03:17:26,320 --> 03:17:28,640 Speaker 2: because turnover is one of the big things that's been 3592 03:17:28,959 --> 03:17:32,320 Speaker 2: sort of you know, it's it's been the wall that 3593 03:17:32,720 --> 03:17:35,040 Speaker 2: the existing units hit and we're like, this is too hard, 3594 03:17:35,120 --> 03:17:38,080 Speaker 2: We're going to go do something else. And I've been 3595 03:17:38,160 --> 03:17:41,280 Speaker 2: I'm wondering how y'all have been dealing with the turnover problem, 3596 03:17:41,360 --> 03:17:44,560 Speaker 2: because it's I mean, it is definitely something that's difficult 3597 03:17:44,640 --> 03:17:50,320 Speaker 2: to deal with, but you know, it's it's not something 3598 03:17:50,360 --> 03:17:52,360 Speaker 2: that makes it impossible. It's just hard, and I'm yeah, 3599 03:17:52,360 --> 03:17:55,640 Speaker 2: I'm interested in what your sort of strategies to manage. 3600 03:17:55,320 --> 03:17:55,800 Speaker 4: It have been. 3601 03:17:57,160 --> 03:17:58,600 Speaker 2: I think it's a matter of passion. 3602 03:17:58,760 --> 03:18:02,160 Speaker 10: I think Tyler is a great example, like is no 3603 03:18:02,400 --> 03:18:06,640 Speaker 10: longer a member, but sees this as like the way 3604 03:18:06,840 --> 03:18:09,840 Speaker 10: that we can move our society forward in general, Like 3605 03:18:09,959 --> 03:18:14,600 Speaker 10: the labor struggle is the struggle, Like there's no war, 3606 03:18:14,720 --> 03:18:18,200 Speaker 10: black class war. If we don't do this, what are 3607 03:18:18,240 --> 03:18:21,879 Speaker 10: we doing here? So wait, we stick around and we're 3608 03:18:21,920 --> 03:18:24,200 Speaker 10: doing this for free. We're not getting paid for it. 3609 03:18:24,320 --> 03:18:26,240 Speaker 10: We're doing it because it's the right thing to do. 3610 03:18:29,200 --> 03:18:32,480 Speaker 16: When our lodge in Grant Park had their walkouts on 3611 03:18:32,640 --> 03:18:35,240 Speaker 16: Labor Day weekend, there was a customer at Grant Park 3612 03:18:35,280 --> 03:18:37,720 Speaker 16: who called out to us that, you know, we should 3613 03:18:37,760 --> 03:18:39,840 Speaker 16: just go open up our own workers co op, And 3614 03:18:39,920 --> 03:18:41,680 Speaker 16: my response to him was that, you know, if we leave, 3615 03:18:42,280 --> 03:18:43,960 Speaker 16: there's just another batch of workers that are going to 3616 03:18:44,000 --> 03:18:45,840 Speaker 16: go through these conditions. Like the goal is not that 3617 03:18:45,959 --> 03:18:47,280 Speaker 16: like I wanted to be great for me, like I 3618 03:18:47,280 --> 03:18:49,640 Speaker 16: don't even work in new seasons anymore. I wanted to 3619 03:18:49,680 --> 03:18:51,600 Speaker 16: be great for my former coworkers who are still there, 3620 03:18:51,680 --> 03:18:53,000 Speaker 16: and for the people that I don't know who are 3621 03:18:53,000 --> 03:18:53,760 Speaker 16: going to come behind them. 3622 03:18:53,800 --> 03:18:56,320 Speaker 6: And that's that's how you get around the high. 3623 03:18:56,120 --> 03:19:00,120 Speaker 16: Turn over pieces like the passion and dedication and I 3624 03:19:00,240 --> 03:19:02,400 Speaker 16: have to make conditions better for the people coming after you, 3625 03:19:02,680 --> 03:19:07,920 Speaker 16: which is really antagonistic to the way capitalism wants us 3626 03:19:07,920 --> 03:19:10,320 Speaker 16: to be very individual like oriented, right, Like we just 3627 03:19:10,360 --> 03:19:13,080 Speaker 16: care about ourselves and our day to day. But that's 3628 03:19:13,120 --> 03:19:15,280 Speaker 16: the really great thing with like the worker power, right, 3629 03:19:15,400 --> 03:19:18,280 Speaker 16: is that you know, collectively we are so much stronger. 3630 03:19:18,360 --> 03:19:21,520 Speaker 16: Collectively we can actually stand up to the boss and win, right, 3631 03:19:21,600 --> 03:19:24,280 Speaker 16: And and that means just reorienting how we think about 3632 03:19:24,280 --> 03:19:26,480 Speaker 16: the world, right, Like, like this job sucks. 3633 03:19:26,320 --> 03:19:28,120 Speaker 6: How can I make this job better? I can just 3634 03:19:28,240 --> 03:19:29,400 Speaker 6: quit and go get a better job. 3635 03:19:29,800 --> 03:19:32,200 Speaker 16: But if I change this job, then the people who 3636 03:19:32,240 --> 03:19:35,040 Speaker 16: are still here also get better working conditions. 3637 03:19:36,200 --> 03:19:38,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that there's kind of there's there's 3638 03:19:38,080 --> 03:19:40,080 Speaker 2: a kind of flip side of that too, right, which 3639 03:19:40,160 --> 03:19:42,600 Speaker 2: is that you know, even if you like you know, 3640 03:19:42,840 --> 03:19:46,240 Speaker 2: like turnover just is inevitable to some extent, even even 3641 03:19:46,280 --> 03:19:48,760 Speaker 2: if you have people who like want to stay and fight, right, like, 3642 03:19:48,800 --> 03:19:50,880 Speaker 2: people are just going to have to leave. But on 3643 03:19:50,920 --> 03:19:52,440 Speaker 2: the other hand, you know, if you if you're if 3644 03:19:52,440 --> 03:19:54,800 Speaker 2: you're in a unionized workplace, and if you're pecifically if 3645 03:19:54,800 --> 03:19:56,960 Speaker 2: you're if you're in if you're in a union that 3646 03:19:57,040 --> 03:19:59,160 Speaker 2: has the sort of militant culture, what you're doing is 3647 03:19:59,200 --> 03:20:02,000 Speaker 2: you're you know, you're changing the actual like class itself, 3648 03:20:02,080 --> 03:20:04,080 Speaker 2: right because you know, like now now you're worker who 3649 03:20:04,200 --> 03:20:05,640 Speaker 2: like you know, I don't know, is moving to Arizona 3650 03:20:05,760 --> 03:20:09,280 Speaker 2: or something. Right, they're they're they are now also much 3651 03:20:09,320 --> 03:20:11,560 Speaker 2: more built and have have this sort of experience of 3652 03:20:11,720 --> 03:20:15,400 Speaker 2: organizing that they made that they may not have had before. 3653 03:20:15,440 --> 03:20:19,520 Speaker 2: And this, you know, it's like you're the any any 3654 03:20:19,560 --> 03:20:22,320 Speaker 2: any individual movement you're doing in one place is building 3655 03:20:22,360 --> 03:20:23,199 Speaker 2: up the entire class. 3656 03:20:25,240 --> 03:20:28,120 Speaker 10: Yeah, and we can see that we've like been attracting 3657 03:20:28,240 --> 03:20:32,360 Speaker 10: people who are interested and becoming involved in a movement. 3658 03:20:32,720 --> 03:20:37,160 Speaker 10: And you know, whether they just graduated from college or 3659 03:20:37,400 --> 03:20:41,760 Speaker 10: they had some sort of distant relative who was in 3660 03:20:41,840 --> 03:20:45,400 Speaker 10: a union, they come to new seasons thinking, oh, I 3661 03:20:45,520 --> 03:20:48,120 Speaker 10: want to get in on the beginning of this, and 3662 03:20:48,320 --> 03:20:52,360 Speaker 10: we've seen like a big push of that recently, and 3663 03:20:52,480 --> 03:20:56,439 Speaker 10: people who leave they want to go, you know, organize 3664 03:20:56,480 --> 03:20:59,600 Speaker 10: their next workplace, you know, regardless if they were fired 3665 03:20:59,760 --> 03:21:00,560 Speaker 10: or whatever. 3666 03:21:00,879 --> 03:21:02,280 Speaker 16: They they want to. 3667 03:21:02,440 --> 03:21:05,280 Speaker 6: Keep it going. So and I think to build on 3668 03:21:05,360 --> 03:21:05,640 Speaker 6: that too. 3669 03:21:06,680 --> 03:21:09,640 Speaker 16: You know, salting is a practice that traditional unions typically 3670 03:21:09,680 --> 03:21:13,360 Speaker 16: do to kind of change a workforce. And when you salt, 3671 03:21:13,760 --> 03:21:15,680 Speaker 16: usually you're paid by the union to go in there, 3672 03:21:15,720 --> 03:21:17,440 Speaker 16: and so you're getting paid by the employer to be there, 3673 03:21:17,480 --> 03:21:20,200 Speaker 16: and the union is paying you to organize. But we've 3674 03:21:20,200 --> 03:21:22,600 Speaker 16: seen a shift now where people are voluntarily salting. Right, 3675 03:21:22,640 --> 03:21:24,440 Speaker 16: People come like out that to get a job, they 3676 03:21:24,480 --> 03:21:27,760 Speaker 16: don't need the money motivator. They just want to function 3677 03:21:28,000 --> 03:21:30,080 Speaker 16: up right, They want to change things and like be 3678 03:21:30,120 --> 03:21:32,760 Speaker 16: antagonistic towards the boss. And I think to me, to 3679 03:21:32,840 --> 03:21:34,320 Speaker 16: go back to an earlier thing you asked about, like 3680 03:21:34,480 --> 03:21:36,720 Speaker 16: kind of like why Portland, right, Like, I think one 3681 03:21:36,760 --> 03:21:40,080 Speaker 16: thing about Portland is people in Portland love a protest, right, Like, 3682 03:21:40,160 --> 03:21:42,320 Speaker 16: we don't need much of a motivation to go through some. 3683 03:21:42,440 --> 03:21:44,320 Speaker 6: Rocks at popped, Right, That's kind of in the culture 3684 03:21:44,360 --> 03:21:44,840 Speaker 6: of Portland. 3685 03:21:45,280 --> 03:21:49,120 Speaker 16: And so there is this this orientation towards struggle that 3686 03:21:49,280 --> 03:21:52,120 Speaker 16: does exist, and right now that energy you know, we 3687 03:21:52,360 --> 03:21:55,800 Speaker 16: we went through the George Floyd uprising and a lot 3688 03:21:55,840 --> 03:21:58,840 Speaker 16: of energy has been funneled into labor, and it's been 3689 03:21:58,959 --> 03:22:01,680 Speaker 16: new voices in labor. It's not the same like you know, 3690 03:22:01,879 --> 03:22:04,360 Speaker 16: ten people now kind of talking. It's all of this 3691 03:22:04,480 --> 03:22:09,040 Speaker 16: new energy. And for the most part, most of Portland 3692 03:22:09,120 --> 03:22:11,440 Speaker 16: labor is being very accommodating and making room for those 3693 03:22:11,440 --> 03:22:13,680 Speaker 16: people to get in there and be heard because folks 3694 03:22:13,760 --> 03:22:16,080 Speaker 16: recognize that they're on their way out right, you know, 3695 03:22:16,120 --> 03:22:19,640 Speaker 16: Folks in their fifties or sixties, like they're they're towards retirement, right, 3696 03:22:19,640 --> 03:22:21,600 Speaker 16: and so it's as younger folks coming in that are 3697 03:22:21,640 --> 03:22:22,320 Speaker 16: going to change. 3698 03:22:22,160 --> 03:22:22,440 Speaker 4: It, you know. 3699 03:22:24,200 --> 03:22:27,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think there's an interesting dynamic with this too, 3700 03:22:28,000 --> 03:22:30,440 Speaker 2: which is that, you know, okay, one of the one 3701 03:22:30,480 --> 03:22:34,320 Speaker 2: of the sort of conditions of the last sort of 3702 03:22:34,440 --> 03:22:37,360 Speaker 2: like forty fifty years of capitalism, like is this sort 3703 03:22:37,400 --> 03:22:40,840 Speaker 2: of high total turnover rates? And also is this, you know, 3704 03:22:41,320 --> 03:22:43,760 Speaker 2: is this thing where you are, like you as an 3705 03:22:43,760 --> 03:22:48,040 Speaker 2: individual worker are shifting jobs really really quickly, and that 3706 03:22:48,680 --> 03:22:50,680 Speaker 2: you know, that's in some sense an issue. But that 3707 03:22:50,760 --> 03:22:52,680 Speaker 2: also means that like I don't know, like if you 3708 03:22:52,760 --> 03:22:55,880 Speaker 2: have a bunch of people who you know, spent like 3709 03:22:56,480 --> 03:22:59,440 Speaker 2: spent one hundred days fighting the Feds and you know 3710 03:22:59,680 --> 03:23:02,200 Speaker 2: still still may like have have developed just like the 3711 03:23:02,240 --> 03:23:04,560 Speaker 2: sort of bilted hatred of the cops and you know, 3712 03:23:04,600 --> 03:23:07,680 Speaker 2: I've developed sort of and into capitalist politics. Yeah, you 3713 03:23:08,080 --> 03:23:10,280 Speaker 2: get more of the sort of salt stuff you're talking about, 3714 03:23:10,320 --> 03:23:13,800 Speaker 2: because like, you know, screw like you know, you're if 3715 03:23:13,800 --> 03:23:15,920 Speaker 2: you're gonna be working like a ship job anyways, you 3716 03:23:16,000 --> 03:23:18,560 Speaker 2: might as well like go work one where you're saulting 3717 03:23:18,600 --> 03:23:21,160 Speaker 2: and starting a union because there's not actually like I 3718 03:23:21,160 --> 03:23:22,840 Speaker 2: don't know's it's not. It's not it's not like you're 3719 03:23:22,920 --> 03:23:29,360 Speaker 2: like getting career advancement in the service job, right, And yeah, 3720 03:23:29,400 --> 03:23:32,920 Speaker 2: I mean that seems to be driving like at least 3721 03:23:32,959 --> 03:23:35,520 Speaker 2: some of the sort of of how this kind of 3722 03:23:35,600 --> 03:23:40,920 Speaker 2: like how the independent union union organizing in Portland's been moving. Yeah. 3723 03:23:41,000 --> 03:23:43,240 Speaker 10: I think I'd also like to point out though that 3724 03:23:43,560 --> 03:23:49,280 Speaker 10: like a lot of people for our union, specifically New 3725 03:23:49,360 --> 03:23:55,360 Speaker 10: Seasons has always been like the progressive business and you've 3726 03:23:55,400 --> 03:23:59,480 Speaker 10: always had a reputation of like being a great place 3727 03:23:59,600 --> 03:24:05,680 Speaker 10: to work. They're really inclusive or whatever. So that's what 3728 03:24:05,920 --> 03:24:09,800 Speaker 10: attracts like a certain crowd of people, and when they 3729 03:24:09,879 --> 03:24:12,920 Speaker 10: get there and they realize that, like they're getting screwed over, 3730 03:24:13,120 --> 03:24:16,000 Speaker 10: just like any other place that they've ever been at, 3731 03:24:18,000 --> 03:24:21,680 Speaker 10: that like fosters this new feeling of like, well, I'm 3732 03:24:21,840 --> 03:24:24,760 Speaker 10: vulnerable no matter what I do, Like there's no where 3733 03:24:24,840 --> 03:24:30,480 Speaker 10: I can turn to trust my employer, and how do 3734 03:24:30,640 --> 03:24:34,080 Speaker 10: I preserve what little dignity that I do have at 3735 03:24:34,160 --> 03:24:38,840 Speaker 10: this workplace? Because generally speaking, like our jobs are pretty 3736 03:24:38,959 --> 03:24:43,840 Speaker 10: okay minus like the corporate business side of things, like 3737 03:24:44,680 --> 03:24:50,920 Speaker 10: most people enjoy going to work, maybe, but they they 3738 03:24:51,040 --> 03:24:55,320 Speaker 10: want to enjoy going to work. So having that like 3739 03:24:56,480 --> 03:25:00,400 Speaker 10: kind of double edged sword has been a cat for 3740 03:25:00,560 --> 03:25:02,400 Speaker 10: us to just built. 3741 03:25:02,200 --> 03:25:02,959 Speaker 6: On what Alex said too. 3742 03:25:03,000 --> 03:25:05,040 Speaker 16: I think it's really interesting that a lot of the 3743 03:25:05,920 --> 03:25:09,160 Speaker 16: surge in new like independent union stuff has been you know, 3744 03:25:09,800 --> 03:25:14,640 Speaker 16: new seasons, Starbucks to a degree, Rii, Trader Joe. It's 3745 03:25:14,680 --> 03:25:18,240 Speaker 16: all these places, these progressive workplaces, right, And what's happened 3746 03:25:18,360 --> 03:25:22,280 Speaker 16: is that so often we've had interactions with customers where 3747 03:25:22,280 --> 03:25:24,440 Speaker 16: they go, wow, I assumed that the prices were so 3748 03:25:24,560 --> 03:25:26,840 Speaker 16: high because your wages were high, and really, dude, like 3749 03:25:28,000 --> 03:25:29,920 Speaker 16: most of us can't afford to live in the city, right, 3750 03:25:29,959 --> 03:25:34,240 Speaker 16: most of us are using Yeah, and it's just not 3751 03:25:34,560 --> 03:25:37,680 Speaker 16: it's not true, right, And so you know, it's workers 3752 03:25:37,720 --> 03:25:40,280 Speaker 16: who get jobs at these progressive places that drank the 3753 03:25:40,320 --> 03:25:42,959 Speaker 16: similar social kool aid that the customers drink. But assuming 3754 03:25:43,000 --> 03:25:46,160 Speaker 16: that these businesses have good business practices, and what's happening 3755 03:25:46,240 --> 03:25:48,280 Speaker 16: is that they're just getting greedy, right, This is the 3756 03:25:48,400 --> 03:25:49,199 Speaker 16: case everywhere. 3757 03:25:49,480 --> 03:25:50,039 Speaker 6: It just hits a. 3758 03:25:50,000 --> 03:25:52,600 Speaker 16: Little bit different when your employer pretends your friends and 3759 03:25:52,680 --> 03:25:53,800 Speaker 16: then stabs you in the back. 3760 03:25:54,240 --> 03:25:54,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. 3761 03:25:55,160 --> 03:25:57,840 Speaker 2: Not all workplaces have this kind of like oh, we're 3762 03:25:57,920 --> 03:26:01,560 Speaker 2: like progressive sort of vibes. But I feel like businesses 3763 03:26:01,600 --> 03:26:04,560 Speaker 2: that have that reputation are also more just more vulnerable. 3764 03:26:04,600 --> 03:26:08,720 Speaker 2: It's not just that like their workers like realize howyocritical 3765 03:26:08,760 --> 03:26:10,320 Speaker 2: it is. It means that they're It means that they're 3766 03:26:10,480 --> 03:26:13,040 Speaker 2: more vulnerable to sort of like damage to their reputation 3767 03:26:13,120 --> 03:26:15,200 Speaker 2: when people find out that, like oh my god, hold on, 3768 03:26:15,560 --> 03:26:19,959 Speaker 2: you're making how much money? Like yeah, and I think, yeah, 3769 03:26:20,360 --> 03:26:23,080 Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm interested, like how how effective has 3770 03:26:23,160 --> 03:26:24,960 Speaker 2: that been for you? Sort of like leveraging that. 3771 03:26:26,320 --> 03:26:27,680 Speaker 6: I think it's been really effective. 3772 03:26:27,879 --> 03:26:29,480 Speaker 16: I mean, you know, and not just as I think 3773 03:26:29,560 --> 03:26:32,360 Speaker 16: a really good example of exactly what you're talking about, right, 3774 03:26:32,480 --> 03:26:35,080 Speaker 16: is the shareholders of Starbucks are holding Howard Schultz accountable 3775 03:26:35,120 --> 03:26:38,840 Speaker 16: because he is wrecking that company, right. And so with 3776 03:26:39,040 --> 03:26:41,320 Speaker 16: New Seasons, what it means is that they play a 3777 03:26:41,440 --> 03:26:43,840 Speaker 16: very sneaky game. They fight us in the back room. 3778 03:26:43,959 --> 03:26:46,360 Speaker 16: They make sure it's not public facing anything we can 3779 03:26:46,400 --> 03:26:49,600 Speaker 16: do to attack their public image, like it hurts. I 3780 03:26:49,720 --> 03:26:51,760 Speaker 16: will say too that you know, we're kind of standing 3781 03:26:51,800 --> 03:26:54,760 Speaker 16: on the shoulders of Burgerville Workers Union here where Burgerville 3782 03:26:55,040 --> 03:26:57,320 Speaker 16: was built on this reputation of like local friendly, like 3783 03:26:57,400 --> 03:27:02,480 Speaker 16: we're the alternative to like corporate fast food, and they 3784 03:27:02,600 --> 03:27:07,400 Speaker 16: had security guards and strikebusters literally fighting with picketers in 3785 03:27:07,520 --> 03:27:09,160 Speaker 16: the past and it tanked the reputation. 3786 03:27:09,240 --> 03:27:10,480 Speaker 2: And so New Season's. 3787 03:27:10,160 --> 03:27:13,160 Speaker 16: Management has clearly looked at what Burgerville management did and 3788 03:27:13,240 --> 03:27:15,080 Speaker 16: been like, we're not going to do that. It doesn't 3789 03:27:15,080 --> 03:27:17,680 Speaker 16: stop them from being pitty. They're just they're more polite 3790 03:27:17,720 --> 03:27:19,680 Speaker 16: when they're pretty to us. They're still just as shitty. 3791 03:27:19,800 --> 03:27:23,160 Speaker 2: They're just they smile while they stab us in the back. Yeah, 3792 03:27:23,200 --> 03:27:25,200 Speaker 2: So on the subject just of stebbing us in the back. 3793 03:27:25,360 --> 03:27:28,400 Speaker 2: So there's been a bunch of stuff going on recently. 3794 03:27:28,400 --> 03:27:30,800 Speaker 2: I was wondering if you could talk about like the 3795 03:27:31,520 --> 03:27:35,320 Speaker 2: I don't know, the recent unrest question mark need to 3796 03:27:35,320 --> 03:27:36,600 Speaker 2: figure out a better way to phrase this. 3797 03:27:36,760 --> 03:27:40,560 Speaker 10: But yeah, yeah, so yeah, we've been building up. We have, 3798 03:27:41,800 --> 03:27:44,840 Speaker 10: i mean since day one of bargaining, which started back 3799 03:27:44,920 --> 03:27:47,120 Speaker 10: in like December or January. 3800 03:27:48,280 --> 03:27:49,359 Speaker 6: It started in January. 3801 03:27:50,560 --> 03:27:56,440 Speaker 10: Yeah, So we we've known that eventually it's going to 3802 03:27:56,480 --> 03:27:58,200 Speaker 10: get to a point where we're going to need to 3803 03:27:58,320 --> 03:28:02,120 Speaker 10: show some force. So, you know, we go in there 3804 03:28:02,760 --> 03:28:06,360 Speaker 10: with good faith, and little by little we find out 3805 03:28:06,520 --> 03:28:12,120 Speaker 10: that the smallest ask is going to be impossible, and 3806 03:28:12,280 --> 03:28:14,800 Speaker 10: we find out that they're going to do whatever they 3807 03:28:14,879 --> 03:28:18,680 Speaker 10: can get away with every time they can. So they 3808 03:28:18,760 --> 03:28:22,119 Speaker 10: started with I mean, they did all kinds of things, 3809 03:28:22,200 --> 03:28:27,760 Speaker 10: but the one catalyst is they changed the attendance policy 3810 03:28:29,000 --> 03:28:30,519 Speaker 10: for non union. 3811 03:28:30,280 --> 03:28:34,840 Speaker 3: Workers and non union stores to. 3812 03:28:34,959 --> 03:28:39,200 Speaker 10: Make it more lenient, which was one of the issues 3813 03:28:39,320 --> 03:28:43,440 Speaker 10: that we campaigned on was the attendance policy because it's 3814 03:28:43,560 --> 03:28:47,880 Speaker 10: ridiculous and people get fired all the time. So we 3815 03:28:48,440 --> 03:28:52,680 Speaker 10: demanded the bargain. They didn't have a response. We brought 3816 03:28:52,720 --> 03:28:56,000 Speaker 10: it up in bargaining at the bargaining table. They said 3817 03:28:57,120 --> 03:29:02,000 Speaker 10: that they would work on something that we could implement 3818 03:29:02,320 --> 03:29:05,600 Speaker 10: before we ratify the contract, but they had to put 3819 03:29:05,640 --> 03:29:11,160 Speaker 10: it through their DEI lens and they had to yeah, yeah, 3820 03:29:11,800 --> 03:29:15,000 Speaker 10: and you know all the things that corporations say to 3821 03:29:15,600 --> 03:29:18,280 Speaker 10: delay it and kick the can down the road. So 3822 03:29:18,600 --> 03:29:23,760 Speaker 10: we're Dylan good faith saying like, okay, you know, go ahead. 3823 03:29:23,840 --> 03:29:28,120 Speaker 10: So then we did a petition where all the stores 3824 03:29:29,240 --> 03:29:33,760 Speaker 10: individually had people sign a petition. We got hundreds of signatures, 3825 03:29:34,400 --> 03:29:37,840 Speaker 10: and then we did a march on the boss asking 3826 03:29:37,920 --> 03:29:42,640 Speaker 10: them to sign this MoU that a memorandum of understanding 3827 03:29:42,800 --> 03:29:47,039 Speaker 10: saying you will give us that same policy. We filed 3828 03:29:47,040 --> 03:29:52,040 Speaker 10: a ULP saying like this is illegal, it's obvious discrimination, 3829 03:29:53,520 --> 03:29:58,160 Speaker 10: and then they just kept saying, Okay, we're working on it. 3830 03:29:58,240 --> 03:29:59,800 Speaker 10: We're working on it, We're working on it. 3831 03:30:00,000 --> 03:30:01,160 Speaker 2: So they never did. 3832 03:30:01,400 --> 03:30:04,400 Speaker 10: Then we did a rally and we showed up at 3833 03:30:04,480 --> 03:30:10,080 Speaker 10: the headquarters with I don't know, probably two hundred of 3834 03:30:10,240 --> 03:30:15,320 Speaker 10: us hell yeah, and marched up to the office and 3835 03:30:15,800 --> 03:30:20,920 Speaker 10: chanted and made a scene and told them they have 3836 03:30:21,040 --> 03:30:24,360 Speaker 10: one more chance to sign the MoU. They didn't sign it. 3837 03:30:25,720 --> 03:30:29,400 Speaker 10: So then we organized the strikes at the two stores 3838 03:30:30,480 --> 03:30:35,119 Speaker 10: and gave them one more chance to sign the MoU. 3839 03:30:35,240 --> 03:30:38,040 Speaker 10: They didn't sign it. We already knew they weren't going 3840 03:30:38,120 --> 03:30:41,760 Speaker 10: to So yeah, we shut down those stores for the 3841 03:30:41,840 --> 03:30:45,520 Speaker 10: rest of the day at Grant Park and for one 3842 03:30:45,680 --> 03:30:47,279 Speaker 10: hour at ourbor Lodge. 3843 03:30:48,480 --> 03:30:50,000 Speaker 2: And it was powerful. 3844 03:30:50,160 --> 03:30:53,440 Speaker 14: We had a lot of support, a lot of people 3845 03:30:53,520 --> 03:30:53,959 Speaker 14: showed up. 3846 03:30:55,680 --> 03:30:58,640 Speaker 6: Yeah, and to build on that too. 3847 03:31:00,360 --> 03:31:02,960 Speaker 16: You know, there's things coming up that we can't talk 3848 03:31:02,959 --> 03:31:06,320 Speaker 16: about yet, but I would say that, Alex, do you 3849 03:31:06,360 --> 03:31:07,879 Speaker 16: want to talk about the practice picketing? 3850 03:31:08,240 --> 03:31:09,520 Speaker 6: I feel like we could talk about. 3851 03:31:09,280 --> 03:31:13,320 Speaker 10: That, Okay, so we actually can talk about We've just 3852 03:31:13,480 --> 03:31:17,800 Speaker 10: filed a ULP, yeah, last night for bad faith bargaining. 3853 03:31:18,320 --> 03:31:20,240 Speaker 2: Yeahs an unfair labor practice. 3854 03:31:20,959 --> 03:31:23,440 Speaker 10: Yes, thank you. I get caught up in the jargon. 3855 03:31:24,000 --> 03:31:26,760 Speaker 10: So we just filed that last night for bad faith 3856 03:31:26,800 --> 03:31:32,199 Speaker 10: bargaining yep, because they gave us the most ridiculous policy 3857 03:31:33,360 --> 03:31:39,359 Speaker 10: for attendance. It's basically regressive bargaining, which is totally unfair. 3858 03:31:39,879 --> 03:31:41,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, do you want to explain what that is? 3859 03:31:42,440 --> 03:31:46,920 Speaker 16: Basically, the NLRB, the National Labor Relations Board. They oversee 3860 03:31:47,160 --> 03:31:50,680 Speaker 16: unions and the relationship between unions and employers. They demand 3861 03:31:50,760 --> 03:31:54,400 Speaker 16: that both sides come in good faith, basically like don't 3862 03:31:54,400 --> 03:31:56,240 Speaker 16: screw around, don't waste each other's time. 3863 03:31:57,720 --> 03:32:00,480 Speaker 6: The goal is to move towards some sort of comp and. 3864 03:32:00,520 --> 03:32:05,440 Speaker 16: An agreement, and regressive bargaining is when you backpedal and 3865 03:32:05,560 --> 03:32:07,720 Speaker 16: you offer something that is worse than what was offered. 3866 03:32:08,200 --> 03:32:11,160 Speaker 16: The attendance policy is, in my opinion, definitely worse. 3867 03:32:11,720 --> 03:32:12,560 Speaker 6: It is no better. 3868 03:32:13,000 --> 03:32:15,560 Speaker 16: I think it frankly takes the shittiest things of the 3869 03:32:15,600 --> 03:32:18,720 Speaker 16: past two policies and put them together. So it seems 3870 03:32:18,760 --> 03:32:21,080 Speaker 16: pretty clear to us that it's regressive. And then we 3871 03:32:21,160 --> 03:32:23,480 Speaker 16: can argue that New Seasons is not acting in good faith. 3872 03:32:23,520 --> 03:32:26,400 Speaker 16: They are acting in bad faith, which is illegal according 3873 03:32:26,400 --> 03:32:28,200 Speaker 16: to the NRB. And so what we are allowed to 3874 03:32:28,240 --> 03:32:32,760 Speaker 16: do is file an unfair labor practice, which basically, you know, 3875 03:32:32,840 --> 03:32:37,439 Speaker 16: it doesn't hold a lot of weight materially, however, symbolically 3876 03:32:37,520 --> 03:32:40,720 Speaker 16: it looks really bad. And so again going back to 3877 03:32:40,920 --> 03:32:42,320 Speaker 16: like Mia, what you were saying about kind of like 3878 03:32:42,400 --> 03:32:46,080 Speaker 16: their image, right, Like these kind of progressive corporations, they 3879 03:32:46,120 --> 03:32:49,000 Speaker 16: don't want to look like the bastards they are. 3880 03:32:49,560 --> 03:32:52,240 Speaker 6: And a ULP makes it pretty clear, Hey, this person's. 3881 03:32:51,920 --> 03:32:53,560 Speaker 16: Being a jerk, this company is being a jerk. So 3882 03:32:53,959 --> 03:32:56,720 Speaker 16: the more ulps that we get filed that like, we win. 3883 03:32:56,840 --> 03:32:59,240 Speaker 16: On the bigger case. We can paint that New seasons 3884 03:32:59,280 --> 03:33:00,920 Speaker 16: is actually being really unfair to us. 3885 03:33:01,720 --> 03:33:01,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 3886 03:33:02,080 --> 03:33:09,440 Speaker 10: So then based on that, we're getting strike ready. We're 3887 03:33:10,360 --> 03:33:16,280 Speaker 10: making sure everybody can show up and be ready to 3888 03:33:16,640 --> 03:33:21,000 Speaker 10: assert our stance. We're not going to just lay back 3889 03:33:21,080 --> 03:33:25,520 Speaker 10: and let them take over. So we're going to do 3890 03:33:25,640 --> 03:33:30,480 Speaker 10: some practice pickets. And I'm sure even hearing that a lot, 3891 03:33:30,720 --> 03:33:34,039 Speaker 10: which is great for I mean, and if you want 3892 03:33:34,080 --> 03:33:37,400 Speaker 10: to bring it back to like the higher turnover rate 3893 03:33:37,640 --> 03:33:41,240 Speaker 10: and like, you know, the general apathy that you see 3894 03:33:41,560 --> 03:33:46,440 Speaker 10: in any union, people are just kind of afraid to 3895 03:33:47,040 --> 03:33:50,720 Speaker 10: be active. So we're looking at practice pickets as a 3896 03:33:50,760 --> 03:33:57,040 Speaker 10: way to get people involved in a really low risk activity. 3897 03:33:57,320 --> 03:34:00,200 Speaker 2: Can you explain how that works? Yeah, So what we're 3898 03:34:00,240 --> 03:34:00,600 Speaker 2: going to do. 3899 03:34:00,800 --> 03:34:05,600 Speaker 10: Is each store will do a picket, but that picket 3900 03:34:05,680 --> 03:34:06,920 Speaker 10: will not be a strike. 3901 03:34:07,200 --> 03:34:08,520 Speaker 3: That picket will not. 3902 03:34:10,240 --> 03:34:16,040 Speaker 10: Encourage shoppers to leave or discourage shopping in any way. 3903 03:34:17,840 --> 03:34:22,560 Speaker 10: We're not calling for a boycott. We're just simply doing logistically, 3904 03:34:22,879 --> 03:34:25,720 Speaker 10: what does it look like if we do a picket 3905 03:34:25,800 --> 03:34:30,200 Speaker 10: at each store in the most peaceful way possible, and 3906 03:34:30,320 --> 03:34:33,840 Speaker 10: then we do that at every store and we kind 3907 03:34:33,879 --> 03:34:36,520 Speaker 10: of gauge, like, you know, how ready are we. 3908 03:34:38,280 --> 03:34:40,680 Speaker 16: And by doing that too it's a show of force 3909 03:34:40,800 --> 03:34:42,960 Speaker 16: to the company, right, Yeah, it's not We're not doing 3910 03:34:43,000 --> 03:34:46,879 Speaker 16: anything illegal. It's effectively an informational picket. So legally there's 3911 03:34:46,920 --> 03:34:48,600 Speaker 16: nothing that New Seasons can do to any of the 3912 03:34:48,640 --> 03:34:49,800 Speaker 16: workers who participate in it. 3913 03:34:50,120 --> 03:34:52,640 Speaker 6: However, they will absolutely see that we are prepared. 3914 03:34:52,320 --> 03:34:55,880 Speaker 16: To do it. The team Staris recently did this for ups. 3915 03:34:56,760 --> 03:34:59,640 Speaker 16: A lot of teachers' unions have done similar things. It's 3916 03:34:59,680 --> 03:35:01,840 Speaker 16: a really can go a force to kind of leverage 3917 03:35:02,080 --> 03:35:04,800 Speaker 16: your people power and show the management that you're ready. 3918 03:35:06,160 --> 03:35:08,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it has another it has another effect too, 3919 03:35:09,040 --> 03:35:13,680 Speaker 2: which is something that you know, the the kind of 3920 03:35:13,879 --> 03:35:17,960 Speaker 2: basic cultural understanding of you know, what unions are, how 3921 03:35:18,040 --> 03:35:21,280 Speaker 2: they function, what you need to be doing any given scenario, 3922 03:35:21,400 --> 03:35:23,680 Speaker 2: like me just physically, how to like do picketts, what 3923 03:35:23,760 --> 03:35:26,440 Speaker 2: you logistically need to do. That stuff has all sort 3924 03:35:26,480 --> 03:35:29,680 Speaker 2: of faded from like the height of union sort of 3925 03:35:29,920 --> 03:35:32,959 Speaker 2: culture in like the sixties and seventies, and that's something 3926 03:35:33,000 --> 03:35:35,560 Speaker 2: that you have to rebuild because you know, and and 3927 03:35:35,680 --> 03:35:38,080 Speaker 2: and then and this is this is something that's both 3928 03:35:38,320 --> 03:35:41,200 Speaker 2: both in terms of the people in the union. That 3929 03:35:41,280 --> 03:35:43,640 Speaker 2: sort of knowledge isituitional knowledge has to be rebuilt, and 3930 03:35:43,680 --> 03:35:45,879 Speaker 2: it also has to be rebuilt in the public because 3931 03:35:45,879 --> 03:35:48,720 Speaker 2: people sort of just don't you know, like you support 3932 03:35:48,760 --> 03:35:52,119 Speaker 2: for unions is really high, uh, but people don't understand 3933 03:35:52,680 --> 03:35:56,720 Speaker 2: exactly what like you know, people, people don't understand exactly 3934 03:35:56,879 --> 03:35:59,160 Speaker 2: what a union is doing any given time, or like 3935 03:35:59,240 --> 03:36:01,360 Speaker 2: how it functions and things like that. 3936 03:36:01,520 --> 03:36:02,560 Speaker 4: And you know, then this is this. 3937 03:36:02,560 --> 03:36:05,840 Speaker 2: Seems like a really good way to like, you know, like, hey, 3938 03:36:05,920 --> 03:36:07,760 Speaker 2: this is a picket. This is what happens when there's 3939 03:36:07,760 --> 03:36:09,600 Speaker 2: a picket. This is an informational picket. We're gonna give 3940 03:36:09,600 --> 03:36:12,400 Speaker 2: you information. And yes, it seems like a good thing 3941 03:36:12,480 --> 03:36:14,640 Speaker 2: for building up that kind of culture on both ends. 3942 03:36:15,840 --> 03:36:18,680 Speaker 16: And it's a really good opportunity to talk to customers 3943 03:36:19,600 --> 03:36:22,080 Speaker 16: get them involved. That's the thing that's that you know, 3944 03:36:22,959 --> 03:36:25,600 Speaker 16: New Seasons kind of tagline as the friendliest store in town. 3945 03:36:26,000 --> 03:36:27,680 Speaker 16: And then the way that they built that, Yeah, the 3946 03:36:27,760 --> 03:36:30,440 Speaker 16: way that they built that reputation though, was by really 3947 03:36:30,600 --> 03:36:35,280 Speaker 16: encouraging workers to develop deep relationships with customers. And so 3948 03:36:35,959 --> 03:36:38,520 Speaker 16: we're using that to leverage against the company now and 3949 03:36:38,600 --> 03:36:39,560 Speaker 16: saying like hey, like you. 3950 03:36:39,600 --> 03:36:41,720 Speaker 6: Know you like me, like you know me by name, 3951 03:36:41,760 --> 03:36:42,640 Speaker 6: and I know you by name. 3952 03:36:42,720 --> 03:36:45,360 Speaker 16: You don't know the CEO by name, like let's talk 3953 03:36:45,560 --> 03:36:47,800 Speaker 16: Let's talk about like what we're asking for and what 3954 03:36:47,920 --> 03:36:50,280 Speaker 16: you as a customer can do to support us in 3955 03:36:50,360 --> 03:36:53,200 Speaker 16: a way that doesn't feel antagonistic. Right, Like like when 3956 03:36:53,240 --> 03:36:55,480 Speaker 16: we had the when we had the walkouts on Labor 3957 03:36:55,520 --> 03:36:58,600 Speaker 16: Day weekend, you know, we did a debrief and we're 3958 03:36:58,640 --> 03:37:00,200 Speaker 16: kind of like, how do we, like, how do we 3959 03:37:00,280 --> 03:37:02,680 Speaker 16: engage with people where we can hold onto our values 3960 03:37:03,080 --> 03:37:07,120 Speaker 16: and still feel like we're being effective. And Randy, a 3961 03:37:07,200 --> 03:37:10,280 Speaker 16: worker at our lodge, his solution instead of calling people 3962 03:37:10,280 --> 03:37:12,280 Speaker 16: who cross the picket line scabs and like you know, 3963 03:37:12,360 --> 03:37:15,360 Speaker 16: harassing that way, you know, he was like, I just said, like, hey, 3964 03:37:15,400 --> 03:37:18,280 Speaker 16: I'm disappointed in you, and I think that like like yeah, 3965 03:37:18,360 --> 03:37:20,280 Speaker 16: like let's just like we're gonna just like if you're 3966 03:37:20,280 --> 03:37:21,520 Speaker 16: going to cross the picket line, I don't need to 3967 03:37:21,600 --> 03:37:23,320 Speaker 16: hurl insults at you. I'm just going to guilt trip 3968 03:37:23,360 --> 03:37:25,680 Speaker 16: you and let you know that like I'm disappointed in 3969 03:37:25,760 --> 03:37:28,040 Speaker 16: you and like you will feel bad as you're shopping. 3970 03:37:28,640 --> 03:37:30,680 Speaker 16: And I think that like that's sort of how we 3971 03:37:30,840 --> 03:37:34,000 Speaker 16: can align the progressive values that attracted people to New 3972 03:37:34,040 --> 03:37:36,039 Speaker 16: Seasons to work there in the first place with how 3973 03:37:36,080 --> 03:37:38,320 Speaker 16: we do actions while still being militant, right, we don't 3974 03:37:38,320 --> 03:37:38,879 Speaker 16: want to be soft. 3975 03:37:39,240 --> 03:37:41,280 Speaker 6: We just got to make sure that like it vibes 3976 03:37:41,320 --> 03:37:42,920 Speaker 6: with what we're about, you know. 3977 03:37:45,480 --> 03:37:47,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's that's another you know, I think this 3978 03:37:47,879 --> 03:37:49,920 Speaker 2: this also gets back to the sort of culture part 3979 03:37:49,959 --> 03:37:53,320 Speaker 2: of it, which is like, yeah, like rebuilding the standard 3980 03:37:53,440 --> 03:37:55,720 Speaker 2: of do not cross a picket line is a thing 3981 03:37:55,800 --> 03:37:58,480 Speaker 2: that has to be done because that's again that's another 3982 03:37:58,560 --> 03:38:01,400 Speaker 2: thing that has sort of faded. And yeah, like guilt 3983 03:38:01,440 --> 03:38:05,120 Speaker 2: tripping people is a good way to do it because yeah, 3984 03:38:05,160 --> 03:38:08,600 Speaker 2: you know, like sort of especially especially sort of like 3985 03:38:08,640 --> 03:38:12,320 Speaker 2: middle and upper middle class progressive people, like really really 3986 03:38:12,440 --> 03:38:14,000 Speaker 2: there are a lot of their politics is about wanting 3987 03:38:14,040 --> 03:38:19,199 Speaker 2: to feel good about themselves and you know, make make. 3988 03:38:19,120 --> 03:38:22,560 Speaker 10: You they can see Yeah, I think if they can 3989 03:38:22,720 --> 03:38:27,760 Speaker 10: see themselves in us too, they will relate and they 3990 03:38:28,959 --> 03:38:33,680 Speaker 10: they won't want to go against their own values, which 3991 03:38:34,440 --> 03:38:39,080 Speaker 10: is our values, because that's the culture of Portland generally speaking. 3992 03:38:40,160 --> 03:38:41,880 Speaker 2: Did you have anything else that you want to make 3993 03:38:41,920 --> 03:38:43,320 Speaker 2: sure to get in before we wrap up? 3994 03:38:44,480 --> 03:38:47,520 Speaker 10: Yeah, we would love to push our gofund me. 3995 03:38:47,879 --> 03:38:48,080 Speaker 6: Yeah. 3996 03:38:48,520 --> 03:38:51,760 Speaker 10: That can be found at our website, which is really 3997 03:38:51,840 --> 03:38:52,560 Speaker 10: hard to find. 3998 03:38:53,360 --> 03:38:57,800 Speaker 2: Is it a slut or but yeah, you have to 3999 03:38:57,959 --> 03:38:58,440 Speaker 2: type it in. 4000 03:38:58,640 --> 03:38:59,680 Speaker 16: You can't just google it. 4001 03:39:00,080 --> 03:39:01,959 Speaker 2: Okay, well we'll put it. We'll just we'll just put 4002 03:39:01,959 --> 03:39:03,720 Speaker 2: a link to it in the okay, cool. 4003 03:39:04,240 --> 03:39:05,359 Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah. 4004 03:39:06,720 --> 03:39:06,920 Speaker 16: Yeah. 4005 03:39:07,040 --> 03:39:10,160 Speaker 10: If anybody you know we're out here being independent union. 4006 03:39:10,280 --> 03:39:14,760 Speaker 10: We have no money. We're just looking for maybe some 4007 03:39:14,920 --> 03:39:18,120 Speaker 10: sort of strike fund for those in need when we 4008 03:39:19,240 --> 03:39:24,560 Speaker 10: are strike ready, and also you know, materials, whatever people 4009 03:39:24,680 --> 03:39:26,200 Speaker 10: can donate would be amazing. 4010 03:39:26,959 --> 03:39:28,560 Speaker 16: Final notes I would say too, is that you know 4011 03:39:29,680 --> 03:39:32,960 Speaker 16: when we started this, I mean, we're an independent union 4012 03:39:33,000 --> 03:39:34,040 Speaker 16: of grocery workers, right. 4013 03:39:34,440 --> 03:39:36,080 Speaker 6: We did all of this in our volunteer time. 4014 03:39:36,560 --> 03:39:39,000 Speaker 16: None of us are lawyers, none of a lot of 4015 03:39:39,120 --> 03:39:41,800 Speaker 16: us had never been in a union before or had 4016 03:39:41,920 --> 03:39:45,080 Speaker 16: very limited experience. We build this all from the ground 4017 03:39:45,200 --> 03:39:48,600 Speaker 16: up with tons of volunteer hours of our own time 4018 03:39:48,680 --> 03:39:52,200 Speaker 16: after work. And we have gone toe to toe with 4019 03:39:52,640 --> 03:39:55,120 Speaker 16: Ogle Tree Deacons, who is one of the largest anti 4020 03:39:55,240 --> 03:39:57,800 Speaker 16: union law firms in the country. That's who New Seasons 4021 03:39:57,959 --> 03:40:01,640 Speaker 16: has retained. We've gone toe to toe with them. We 4022 03:40:01,760 --> 03:40:05,400 Speaker 16: have a lawyer now who is really graciously kind of 4023 03:40:05,600 --> 03:40:07,640 Speaker 16: letting us write her in IOU for the time being, 4024 03:40:08,480 --> 03:40:10,959 Speaker 16: But even before her, we were still able to hold 4025 03:40:11,000 --> 03:40:14,160 Speaker 16: her own against a major anti union law firm. Right, 4026 03:40:14,480 --> 03:40:18,640 Speaker 16: there is power in workers coming together collectively. It's not 4027 03:40:19,840 --> 03:40:21,920 Speaker 16: as easy as it should be to find that information, 4028 03:40:22,440 --> 03:40:24,760 Speaker 16: but it is out there and there are people who 4029 03:40:24,840 --> 03:40:26,480 Speaker 16: want to share it, and I would say that, like, 4030 03:40:28,000 --> 03:40:30,760 Speaker 16: for me, the labor movement has been a really empowering 4031 03:40:30,800 --> 03:40:32,800 Speaker 16: place to come into. You know, I have a lot 4032 03:40:32,840 --> 03:40:35,560 Speaker 16: of experience with sort of like leftists, like street activism, 4033 03:40:36,600 --> 03:40:39,360 Speaker 16: but I think that for anybody who wants to be 4034 03:40:39,440 --> 03:40:42,120 Speaker 16: involved in the struggle and is also like looking for 4035 03:40:42,240 --> 03:40:42,879 Speaker 16: ways to make. 4036 03:40:42,840 --> 03:40:45,200 Speaker 6: In rigs and develop community like. 4037 03:40:45,320 --> 03:40:47,360 Speaker 16: Labors where it's at right, I mean, we all work 4038 03:40:47,520 --> 03:40:49,080 Speaker 16: and to a degree, we all hit our jobs and 4039 03:40:49,120 --> 03:40:51,160 Speaker 16: have something to complain about, and like that's a commonality 4040 03:40:51,200 --> 03:40:55,520 Speaker 16: that stretches across the aisle and allows for a lot 4041 03:40:55,560 --> 03:40:59,600 Speaker 16: of solidarity in a way that the culture war really 4042 03:40:59,640 --> 03:41:03,640 Speaker 16: doesn't want and really, like you know, it's by design, right, 4043 03:41:03,680 --> 03:41:07,080 Speaker 16: the capitalists want us fighting against each other, and the 4044 03:41:07,160 --> 03:41:08,920 Speaker 16: labor movement is a way for the working class to 4045 03:41:09,040 --> 03:41:11,520 Speaker 16: unite because it's it's about class far. 4046 03:41:11,720 --> 03:41:19,280 Speaker 2: You know, yeah, here here, yeah, and you know this 4047 03:41:19,480 --> 03:41:24,040 Speaker 2: this should go without saying. I'm going to say it anyways, 4048 03:41:24,600 --> 03:41:27,560 Speaker 2: you also listener at home can do this too. There 4049 03:41:27,640 --> 03:41:29,920 Speaker 2: is you know, there there there there. There is nothing 4050 03:41:29,959 --> 03:41:32,280 Speaker 2: sort of magical or special about the people who do 4051 03:41:32,400 --> 03:41:34,440 Speaker 2: union organizing other than the fact that they decide to 4052 03:41:34,560 --> 03:41:37,160 Speaker 2: organize a union. So you can do this too. You 4053 03:41:37,200 --> 03:41:39,400 Speaker 2: can form an independent union and yeah, you can go 4054 03:41:39,520 --> 03:41:42,480 Speaker 2: hand your bosses a fucking gass and get better, you know, 4055 03:41:42,520 --> 03:41:45,200 Speaker 2: get better working conditions and get better things for you 4056 03:41:45,440 --> 03:41:47,320 Speaker 2: and your entire class in the process. 4057 03:41:48,040 --> 03:41:48,280 Speaker 6: Yeah. 4058 03:41:49,000 --> 03:41:51,280 Speaker 16: I would say Labor Notes is a great resource for 4059 03:41:51,360 --> 03:41:55,240 Speaker 16: early information. The Coalition of Independent Unions is on Instagram 4060 03:41:55,400 --> 03:41:57,440 Speaker 16: and workers from around the country have reached out to 4061 03:41:57,480 --> 03:42:01,360 Speaker 16: them for advice. You know, on Instagram you can ask 4062 03:42:01,480 --> 03:42:05,200 Speaker 16: us questions. Reach out to independent unions and ask them questions. 4063 03:42:05,480 --> 03:42:07,480 Speaker 16: This is a labor movement made up of the workers 4064 03:42:07,720 --> 03:42:10,400 Speaker 16: for the workers. We want more workers to organize. 4065 03:42:11,040 --> 03:42:13,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think on that note, Yeah, this has 4066 03:42:13,800 --> 03:42:17,360 Speaker 2: been Nike to happen here. Go into the world and fight. Yeah, 4067 03:42:17,520 --> 03:42:19,240 Speaker 2: thank you, thank you so much. 4068 03:42:19,320 --> 03:42:25,560 Speaker 1: Maya Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every 4069 03:42:25,600 --> 03:42:27,800 Speaker 1: week from now until the heat death of the universe. 4070 03:42:28,400 --> 03:42:30,760 Speaker 2: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 4071 03:42:31,000 --> 03:42:33,640 Speaker 14: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 4072 03:42:33,720 --> 03:42:35,880 Speaker 14: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 4073 03:42:35,959 --> 03:42:39,360 Speaker 14: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, 4074 03:42:39,800 --> 03:42:41,879 Speaker 14: you can find sources for It could happen here, Updated 4075 03:42:41,959 --> 03:42:46,000 Speaker 14: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.