Speaker 1: To be honest, so much of it is just about
Speaker 1: not feeling like unset and in my trailer when I'm alone,
Speaker 1: wanting to tear my skin off. So the future, I
Speaker 1: think I couldn't see it because I didn't know how
Speaker 1: much longer I'd last feeling that way in my day
Speaker 1: to day life. Everyone's sort of go to was your
Speaker 1: dream's coming true, Your dreams coming true, Your dream's coming true,
Speaker 1: Kate Winslet said to me, don't let them change you.
Speaker 2: Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite
Speaker 2: you to join this community to hear more interviews that
Speaker 2: will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All
Speaker 2: I want you to do is click on the subscribe button.
Speaker 2: I love your support. It's incredible to see all your
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Speaker 2: for subscribing. It means the world to me.
Speaker 3: The best selling author on the Post, the.
Speaker 4: Number one Healthy Well inness podcast and Purpose.
Speaker 2: With Jay Shetty, Welcome back to One Purpose. I'm so
Speaker 2: excited because I get to sit down with Elliott Page.
Speaker 2: Elliott Page is an Academy Award nominated actor, director, producer, writer,
Speaker 2: and the New York Times best selling author. Known for
Speaker 2: his indelible on screen presence in both tent poll and
Speaker 2: art house films, Elliott uses his global platform to shed
Speaker 2: light on important social and LGBTQ plus issues. Up next,
Speaker 2: Elliott will starr in Close to You, which will have
Speaker 2: its world premiere at the twenty twenty three Toronto International
Speaker 2: Film Festival. Elliot's critically acclaimed debut book, a memoir, entitled
Speaker 2: Page Boy, was published around the world in June twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three. The book became an instant bestseller, number one
Speaker 2: atop the New York Times Bestseller List and receiving widespread
Speaker 2: positive reviews. With Elliot's production company, Pageboy Productions, Elliott develops
Speaker 2: and produces entertaining, original and socially responsible stories. Elliott, Welcome
Speaker 2: to On Purpose.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for making the time for being here.
Speaker 2: I know you're in LA only for a few days,
Speaker 2: and I'm grateful that I get to steal some of
Speaker 2: that time.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me here.
Speaker 2: Well, today we're talking about your incredible new memoir. For
Speaker 2: anyone who hasn't already read this book, I highly recommend
Speaker 2: that you go and grab it. We're going to put
Speaker 2: the link in the caption so that you can order
Speaker 2: it right now. Page Boy, please make sure that you
Speaker 2: go and grab a copy. If you're enjoying this conversation, Elliott.
Speaker 2: When I was reading through the book, I was truly
Speaker 2: just first of all, I just felt very grateful that
Speaker 2: someone's letting us in on such an intimate part of
Speaker 2: their life and doing it in such a graceful and
Speaker 2: thoughtful way. And even the structure of the book too.
Speaker 2: I was just like, Oh, this is like easing me
Speaker 2: in in a way that I wouldn't expect to from
Speaker 2: a memoir usually. And you chose this non linear approach
Speaker 2: consciously and intentionally. Could you explain why you felt that
Speaker 2: that was the right way to share your story?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, for me, the non linearity of it
Speaker 1: is a reflection on some level of speaking for myself,
Speaker 1: the trans and queer experience, and how that journey weaves,
Speaker 1: how we get close to where truth potentially pull back,
Speaker 1: maybe know ourselves very very deeply before we've been inundated
Speaker 1: with you know, the society and its expectations that are
Speaker 1: often toxic and limiting, and you know, so for me,
Speaker 1: in regards to exploration of memory and of those moments
Speaker 1: of my life where I did feel close and then
Speaker 1: would pull back, potentially because I was frightened, overwhelmed, or
Speaker 1: what have you. So I guess also personally, I enjoy
Speaker 1: when books are nonlinear. You know, we're in different themes
Speaker 1: and topics and history and emotion and what have you
Speaker 1: can all sort of collide. So that's just inherently, I guess,
Speaker 1: exciting to me. And also, yeah, I think it reflects
Speaker 1: the sort of queer trans journey on some level.
Speaker 2: I love the phrase you just used, the exploration of memory.
Speaker 2: I don't know, my mind just latched onto it and
Speaker 2: I thought, wow, that's a really interesting way of putting it.
Speaker 2: I think our memory so often is a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2: It so often fails us. It's so often skewed. What
Speaker 2: was it like for you going down memory lane? And
Speaker 2: when you said exploration of memory, what did you discover
Speaker 2: or explore about memory? When you're putting together a memoir,
Speaker 2: I feel like I feel like there must be something
Speaker 2: in there for me.
Speaker 3: So many of.
Speaker 1: You know, the stories or the moments that I chose
Speaker 1: are ones that have just always been vibrating right under
Speaker 1: the surface and found the act of writing it in
Speaker 1: many ways was quite organic. It was sort of I'd
Speaker 1: sit down, think of a period, think of a relationship
Speaker 1: that could potentially sort of speak to many things during
Speaker 1: that time, or a friendship or an incident or what
Speaker 1: have you, and then sort of mold around that. And
Speaker 1: for me, so much of what came up was the
Speaker 1: stuff that was kind of always running around my brain.
Speaker 1: So some of my earliest memories when I was, you know,
Speaker 1: in preschool to obviously then all over the place throughout
Speaker 1: so I think a lot of the the instances and
Speaker 1: feelings were quite sort of readily available and tangible.
Speaker 3: For me.
Speaker 1: The experience was I don't know if this comes from
Speaker 1: like acting or having so much of my life being
Speaker 1: a part of telling stories, where it was as if
Speaker 1: I could sort of picture the moment and feel the moment,
Speaker 1: and it was as if I was just describing this
Speaker 1: movie I was watching or something.
Speaker 2: Do you find that I'm always fascinated by this, especially
Speaker 2: with people who are in filmmaking. Do you find that
Speaker 2: when you're looking at a memory you're seeing yourself move
Speaker 2: or are you kind of the person doing the moving?
Speaker 2: Does that make sense?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 3: It does.
Speaker 1: I think probably both the combination of the two probably
Speaker 1: also a conscious removal on some level to be able to,
Speaker 1: you know, give a texture and description that hopefully will
Speaker 1: you know, pull the reader into it.
Speaker 2: Absolutely well. I always find that all my memories, which
Speaker 2: it took me a long time to realize this, all
Speaker 2: my memories that are based on pictures are ones that
Speaker 2: I'm seeing myself as opposed to memories that I actually
Speaker 2: have from my mind.
Speaker 3: If that, yeah, if that.
Speaker 2: Makes sense, Like whenever I see a picture of me
Speaker 2: and my family, then I'm like, oh, actually, I don't
Speaker 2: have a memory of that. I just have a picture
Speaker 2: that sparks something for you. Was there a memory that
Speaker 2: was more of a discovery or a memory that was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I didn't I forgot that that happened, or I maybe
Speaker 2: didn't pay enough attention to that when it happened. Was
Speaker 2: there anything that came up that way or was it
Speaker 2: more just things that were already there.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say anything sort of necessarily sparked or emerged
Speaker 1: out of nowhere that was a surprise. But I think
Speaker 1: on some level, and this made you know, the experience
Speaker 1: of writing it of course intense in moments but ultimately
Speaker 1: really healing and cathartic. I think there was a lot
Speaker 1: of memories that I had just so swept under the rug,
Speaker 1: where you become so conditioned to let certain things go,
Speaker 1: certain behavior coming at you go that even sitting here
Speaker 1: right now, I can kind of feel it in my
Speaker 1: body to register how much certain things really did affect
Speaker 1: me and my life and my physical wellbeing and my
Speaker 1: emotional wellbeing.
Speaker 3: And what have you.
Speaker 1: So it was almost more like there was like a
Speaker 1: therapeutic element to it on some level, but sitting with
Speaker 1: the reality of some things that I think was actually
Speaker 1: really important.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thank you for doing it here and here
Speaker 2: in both places, because I can only imagine how much
Speaker 2: courage it takes to do that. So thank you for
Speaker 2: even experiencing even now, as you were saying, you can
Speaker 2: feel it in your body and I can see that
Speaker 2: it's I can only imagine how much card doses that take.
Speaker 2: So you thank you for going there for us. How
Speaker 2: does it feel to finally be living the way you've
Speaker 2: always wanted to and being perceived in the way you've
Speaker 2: always perceived yourself.
Speaker 3: It's like.
Speaker 1: Getting to feel a way that I never thought was
Speaker 1: possible when I would just think about my future and
Speaker 1: how I was going to feel, and I had a
Speaker 1: very difficult time seeing it. Even this morning, I saw
Speaker 1: a friend and I don't see him as much because
Speaker 1: he lives here, and he's just like this like lightness
Speaker 1: in you. He's just like, oh my gosh, it's such.
Speaker 3: An amazing thing to see.
Speaker 1: And this is someone who's been in my life since
Speaker 1: I was, you know, first really in Los Angeles at
Speaker 1: the age of about twenty, like consistently is when we
Speaker 1: first met initially. So it's, yeah, it's getting to exist
Speaker 1: in a way that I never thought possible. Doesn't mean
Speaker 1: I'm not human who doesn't have difficult days or you know,
Speaker 1: sparks of anxiety naturally, but it's a complete game changer
Speaker 1: just getting to feel being able to do this, This
Speaker 1: would have been one impossible. Before impossible, I could have
Speaker 1: never simply the action of sitting down for the length
Speaker 1: that it to have space in my mind freed from
Speaker 1: everything else that was occupying it, to feel the sort
Speaker 1: of surge of creativity and feelings of just being inspired
Speaker 1: and waking up and being able to actually sit down
Speaker 1: with myself and do something like this. Impossible before impossible.
Speaker 2: What would your thoughts about the future have been then
Speaker 2: that you think made it feel so impossible? As you said,
Speaker 2: used to think about the future, and it could never
Speaker 2: have felt as good as it does today despite there
Speaker 2: being natural human challenges obviously, But yeah, what would that
Speaker 2: picture of the future would have been.
Speaker 1: I think the way the way to explain it is
Speaker 1: almost like it's almost as if your days. I just
Speaker 1: do feel like for very significant periods of my life,
Speaker 1: I struggled to function on a pretty basic level. You know,
Speaker 1: it was hard for me to just literally sit down.
Speaker 1: It was hard for me to be productive, it was
Speaker 1: hard for me to be you know, present at all.
Speaker 1: And so the future, I think I couldn't see it
Speaker 1: because I didn't know how much longer i'd last feeling
Speaker 1: that way in my day to day life.
Speaker 2: How does it feel now reconnecting with acting, being who
Speaker 2: you've always been and being perceived in that way? Like,
Speaker 2: what is acting like now? Has your relationship with acting changed?
Speaker 2: Is it better? Is it more?
Speaker 3: So much better?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I mean literally everything my life is
Speaker 1: better now because of how I get to feel and
Speaker 1: feeling embodied and present and you know, all these things
Speaker 1: really for the first time, because this is the other
Speaker 1: thing I have people say to me, or I'd say
Speaker 1: to myself, like like, you're an actor, just put on
Speaker 1: the clothes, flip the switch, play the game, you know whatever.
Speaker 1: But I wasn't starting from this foundational place of myself.
Speaker 1: And as much as acting is about inhabiting you know,
Speaker 1: another personality or you know whatever, manfestations of a character,
Speaker 1: what have you, you're always bringing yourself to a role
Speaker 1: right like you're It's so much about connecting to a character,
Speaker 1: to a story, to motivation, to emotion, to trauma to whatever,
Speaker 1: to the joy, to what have you, and developing your
Speaker 1: connection with that and then molding something on them. So
Speaker 1: I used to be so profoundly uncomfortable, and I feel
Speaker 1: like I see that and work like inability to sort
Speaker 1: of I almost think of the word loose, and now
Speaker 1: there's like this like looseness. There's this ability to just
Speaker 1: like exist every day on set, be in my body,
Speaker 1: and that's the starting point. I'm not having to like
Speaker 1: fight through something to get to the starting point, you
Speaker 1: know where. I know people approach the work differently, but
Speaker 1: to me, it's about being as present and open as
Speaker 1: absolutely possible with all the you know, information you've gathered
Speaker 1: about how you want to you know, play this role
Speaker 1: or approach it. So it's allowing for that, and it's
Speaker 1: feeling like how acting felt in the moments when I
Speaker 1: was the most inspired, which usually were roles that somewhat
Speaker 1: I could almost handle, you know, I could handle the
Speaker 1: you know, there'd still be some discomfort, but it was
Speaker 1: at least somewhat closer to who I was, which again
Speaker 1: sounds counterintuitive to acting, but to me, the presence of
Speaker 1: it is what makes it possible and the most powerful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to even though something's in art and
Speaker 2: then there's humans, it's hard to separate the two, Like
Speaker 2: it's hard to just say, well, that's an art. You
Speaker 2: turn it on like an off, like a switch, and
Speaker 2: then there's your life. And I think we all know that,
Speaker 2: regardless of our disposition or set up, the two intertwine anyway, absolutely,
Speaker 2: you know. And so what parts of the art do
Speaker 2: you feel have drastically improved for you know, like that
Speaker 2: you just feel more connected to or as you said,
Speaker 2: I love the words open and present to you.
Speaker 1: I mean to be honest, So much of it is
Speaker 1: just about not feeling like unset and in my trailer
Speaker 1: when I'm alone and wanting to tear my skin off
Speaker 1: I don't know whatever, the sort of physical ways that
Speaker 1: I would feel and like I can't remember, I'd call
Speaker 1: my you know, manager on films and just be like,
Speaker 1: I'm not okay, like and not necessarily having the words
Speaker 1: or having them, but not not being able to fully
Speaker 1: follow through with the thought. I guess so so much
Speaker 1: of is it actually is like? To be honest, if
Speaker 1: someone had told me, oh, you've come out as trands
Speaker 1: and you'll never work as an actor again, I would
Speaker 1: have been like cool, Like all right, I'd way rather
Speaker 1: live my life life and be myself and engage with
Speaker 1: the world is myself and feel embodied and not feel
Speaker 1: like I don't know how to get through the day
Speaker 1: not interested. So for me, I'm mostly like okay, cool
Speaker 1: that the you know, if I keep if I do
Speaker 1: get cast, the fallout does seem to be this very
Speaker 1: positive aspect of feeling so much more grounded and present
Speaker 1: that I think I will it's going to make performances better,
Speaker 1: and if it doesn't.
Speaker 3: Doesn't, I don't really care. That's not what life's about
Speaker 3: for me.
Speaker 1: Had been in movies that have done well, in movies
Speaker 1: that have not done well, and you're still where you
Speaker 1: are and living your life and.
Speaker 3: I'm good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I mean that that is I
Speaker 2: love you said That's what life's about, and I think
Speaker 2: it's so true. Like for all of us in our
Speaker 2: own way, is wanting to feel that we can truly
Speaker 2: be who we are and be seen for who we
Speaker 2: are and be accepted for who we are is kind
Speaker 2: of what all of us on our journey are pursuing
Speaker 2: and seeking. And when you say and it sounds like
Speaker 2: to me and I'm trying to deeply understand this as well,
Speaker 2: it's like when you say in the book you talk
Speaker 2: about how you like I knew when I was four
Speaker 2: years old, and it's like that knowingness, and then you
Speaker 2: use the language of like, you know, tearing off your
Speaker 2: own skin, like that idea to me feels like when
Speaker 2: there's such a strong knowingness inside, knowing is different to feeling.
Speaker 2: And it sounds like when I was reading, I was like,
Speaker 2: there was just knowingness and I was intrigued as to
Speaker 2: is that the right language? Do you agree with that?
Speaker 2: And what is the difference for you between knowing and feeling,
Speaker 2: because I think knowing is so much more of this
Speaker 2: like visceral, deep grounded rooting feeling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I suppose they're probably both obviously interrelated
Speaker 1: to a degree and connect I mean, I think at
Speaker 1: those which are some of my earliest memories, like these
Speaker 1: moments that were just always like right under the surface,
Speaker 1: was so much of how I felt at that age
Speaker 1: and who I knew myself to be, and how perplexed
Speaker 1: I was at how the.
Speaker 3: World was seeing me. And then.
Speaker 1: And when I was about ten, sort of like kind
Speaker 1: of like pushing my mother to the degree that I
Speaker 1: was like really actually getting to present how I wanted
Speaker 1: and like remembering just how good that felt and the
Speaker 1: solidness and this way I could could exist in the
Speaker 1: world without the similar feelings that I had as a
Speaker 1: full blown adult of wanting to rip my skin off
Speaker 1: that I was feeling at really young ages and not
Speaker 1: obviously having the words for but in some ways they're
Speaker 1: like no, wait, I did have the words for them.
Speaker 1: I was going, this is who I am and want
Speaker 1: to be, and these are the things that I want
Speaker 1: to wear and how I want to look and present.
Speaker 1: And you had people going you know No, I'm sorry
Speaker 1: you know. So in some ways they're like, wait, no,
Speaker 1: I did have the words, and also I guess I
Speaker 1: did to a degree in my twenties, and same thing.
Speaker 1: People are going, no, you can't do that. You have
Speaker 1: to do this if you want a future in this industry,
Speaker 1: for example, or you have to be closeted or what
Speaker 1: have you. So I think for me, the knowing and
Speaker 1: the feeling relate. The knowing and feeling good about the
Speaker 1: knowing is when you feel euphoria, is when you feel
Speaker 1: that sense of connection, when that's incongruence with what you've
Speaker 1: been labeled as and defined as and how you're getting
Speaker 1: treated versus who you know you are. Then when that's
Speaker 1: heightened and like you're losing the sense of the knowing,
Speaker 1: that's when all these awful feelings come up and the
Speaker 1: manifestation and the consequences that are self harm obviously, mental
Speaker 1: health struggles and what have you, feelings of hopelessness. So
Speaker 1: I suppose they entwine in that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, definitely. I'm curious as to friends that you've
Speaker 2: had in the community who may have been more limited
Speaker 2: by those statements or that pushback or that judgment how
Speaker 2: have you been able to talk to others in the community.
Speaker 2: What have those conversations look like when they're at their
Speaker 2: healthiest and at their best.
Speaker 1: Gosh, well, I'd say those conversations are crucial, right, I'd
Speaker 1: say community is maybe the biggest reason why I'm even
Speaker 1: here and able to exist, and a lot of those conversations,
Speaker 1: and it goes both ways. In the conversations, is someone
Speaker 1: speaking to something that might be a thought or a
Speaker 1: feeling that you thought you were alone with because we
Speaker 1: obviously don't, you know, there's not a tremendous amount of representation.
Speaker 1: And when you are able to connect with someone that's
Speaker 1: having these similar experiences that have made you feel very alone,
Speaker 1: that have filled you with shame potentially or put you
Speaker 1: into a sense of hiding.
Speaker 2: Is the.
Speaker 1: Not that you want anyone else to be suffering by
Speaker 1: any means, but when you're able to speak to someone
Speaker 1: else who's also maybe had the similar feelings when they
Speaker 1: were for who's maybe had similar manifestations of their pain,
Speaker 1: I suppose you feel less alone. You are then in
Speaker 1: a position where you know I can offer support, and
Speaker 1: support has been offered to me from so many trans
Speaker 1: people that I'm close to and people I've never met
Speaker 1: whose books I've read, you know, who've deeply inspired me.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, were there any particular books or people that
Speaker 2: you didn't know that you came across that you think
Speaker 2: you'd recommend to people to connect with, that you felt
Speaker 2: were powerful for you while you obviously now that your
Speaker 2: book's going to play the same role for so many others.
Speaker 1: Gosh, I mean so many. And then yeah, some people
Speaker 1: I know, some I don't. And also a couple of
Speaker 1: books I've read recently. Actually, Travis Alabanza's book that came
Speaker 1: out in the UK comes out here I think next month,
Speaker 1: called None of the Above is just.
Speaker 3: Astounding. I don't know if you're familiar with.
Speaker 2: Them, No, No, I'm not.
Speaker 3: Yeah, brilliant.
Speaker 1: Also a British book called A trans Man Walks into
Speaker 1: a Gay Bar by Harry Nicholas. Stunning book anyway, I
Speaker 1: just sort of like just read those. Oh, I just
Speaker 1: read a collection of I don't know if you're familiar
Speaker 1: with lou Sullivan. They've published like massive amount of his
Speaker 1: diaries which I just read, and that was atually quite
Speaker 1: an interesting read because at first you're reading someone's diary
Speaker 1: like it is very I did this, then I met
Speaker 1: this person, and then you really get into the flow
Speaker 1: of it, and it's very you know, it's beautiful. It's
Speaker 1: emotional and intense. And Janet Mark's books which are stunning.
Speaker 1: Those I read probably around the age of thirty, Thomas
Speaker 1: Page mcbee's book Amateur and man Alive.
Speaker 2: I'm blinking, no, I mean, you've given us a great list.
Speaker 2: That's a phenomenal list to even get started with. And
Speaker 2: it's it's incredible to hear how much you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: you were just reeling off of book names there, but
Speaker 2: it's like some mu's deep study of you know, did
Speaker 2: you ever keep a diary or during this time, or
Speaker 2: a journal or anything at all all over your time
Speaker 2: or was this something that was all happening in your mind?
Speaker 3: Ultimately mine, for the most part, they were little.
Speaker 1: I did go like hunting and h for any kind
Speaker 1: of old writing from whatever age, and I found some
Speaker 1: things as a teen, late teens, and like little things
Speaker 1: from in my twenties and did kind of regret not
Speaker 1: writing more because a lot of those were really helpful
Speaker 1: and fascinating to just read, you know, thinking back, So no,
Speaker 1: not so much, but yeah, but.
Speaker 2: You'd recommend it as a yes, as a practice.
Speaker 3: And I keep meaning to do it, and I thought even.
Speaker 1: Maybe I like I wrote a book. Book tour was
Speaker 1: a lot. I'm like, I'm just taking a moment and
Speaker 1: then all I think that's fair. Back into the writing flow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's completely fair. Books and book to us,
Speaker 2: it's almost like you finish writing a book and you
Speaker 2: think the job's done, and then it's like just started
Speaker 2: and it's yeah, no, completely completely understand that you You
Speaker 2: were saying that, you know, and I liked how you
Speaker 2: were thinking that through you I actually did have the
Speaker 2: right words at four and then at ten. And I
Speaker 2: wonder how many young people are going to have the
Speaker 2: same conversation with their parents in the next few years.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, we're going to have more parents
Speaker 2: hearing the words that you used to from their children.
Speaker 2: What do you think would be a healthy response from
Speaker 2: parents that you think would be helpful or that you
Speaker 2: would encourage so that they could be able to better
Speaker 2: stay connected to their children as they're going on their
Speaker 2: own journey.
Speaker 1: I think you really need to just listen to your
Speaker 1: children and not be dismissive of what they're expressing. Shame
Speaker 1: them or embarrass them for what they're expressing, and allow
Speaker 1: a child the space to explore, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: even as an adult, the things I was saying to myself,
Speaker 1: the things I'd internalized. And I remember this moment which
Speaker 1: when people say things like what do you say to
Speaker 1: young people who might be struggling or people are struggling?
Speaker 1: Is I went from oh am I the oh I
Speaker 1: don't know, oh, to well, wait, why does this energy
Speaker 1: need to be this way? Why can't I just be
Speaker 1: going huh hmm, yeah, maybe I am. Maybe y'all go
Speaker 1: and find someone and finally sit down and really commit
Speaker 1: to speaking about this and how I'm feeling in my
Speaker 1: relationship with my gender in my body because I'm not okay,
Speaker 1: And why can't I put my shoulders back and speak
Speaker 1: to this and explore this? And I think in so
Speaker 1: many ways, it's just about creating that space, that gentleness
Speaker 1: and listening and educating yourself. You know, there is a
Speaker 1: lack of information and there isn't a tremendous amount of
Speaker 1: lies and misinformation about trans people, particularly about our health care,
Speaker 1: particularly about health care for youth. So also try and
Speaker 1: educate yourself from actual sources, from lived experience and also
Speaker 1: care that's supported by every major medical institution in the
Speaker 1: United States.
Speaker 2: Could you exp and, if this is your field of knowledge,
Speaker 2: could you expand on some of those lives or some
Speaker 2: of that misinformation that's out there, especially to do with healthcare,
Speaker 2: because I think that would be really useful if you
Speaker 2: feel comfortable to you.
Speaker 1: I mean, I can, I can do my best, I
Speaker 1: guess yeah, But I mean the idea that children's bodies
Speaker 1: are being mutilated flat out liy just literally not true.
Speaker 1: The idea that puberty blockers are experimental, Nope, They've been
Speaker 1: used for decades for children who have precocious puberty. And
Speaker 1: this care is sort of framed as something that's like
Speaker 1: very easily accessible and immediate.
Speaker 3: Not the case at all.
Speaker 1: Most trans people are have an incredibly difficult time access
Speaker 1: and care. It's not how it's being framed in terms
Speaker 1: of this as if it's getting like pushed. It's like
Speaker 1: the opposite. And this is like a very thorough patient
Speaker 1: process that deeply involves the parents of course, and so
Speaker 1: much of the care for children or you know, young kids,
Speaker 1: it's just about supporting them, supporting a social transition potentially,
Speaker 1: you know, name change, program change, how they might want
Speaker 1: to dress, cut their hair, whatever, you know, very you know,
Speaker 1: basic aspects of you know, how we exist an how
Speaker 1: we're alive. And then you know, the moment a child
Speaker 1: starts to show any sort of characteristic of puberty, that's
Speaker 1: when the conversation weighed out, conversation with all the information
Speaker 1: everybody involved about puberty blockers, which can stop and then
Speaker 1: you know, if that's the choice or continue potentially to hormones.
Speaker 1: And then when we're talking about any kind of you know,
Speaker 1: surgical aspect, nothing like that is happening until the age
Speaker 1: of typically eighteen, in some cases sixteen.
Speaker 2: But so.
Speaker 1: I guess that's like the bulk of what I see
Speaker 1: is this idea that children are getting like mutilated or
Speaker 1: brainwashed or in environments that are forcing it. It's the opposite. Actually,
Speaker 1: you know, trans and gender nonconforming people are bully deal
Speaker 1: with disproportionate violence, so so much of that is just
Speaker 1: just literally not true.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, no, it's
Speaker 2: it's useful because, yeah, I think that the challenges with
Speaker 2: with all of this is, like you said, there's so
Speaker 2: much information that it's hard for misinformation and information that
Speaker 2: it's hard for people to kind of hear about things effectively,
Speaker 2: and we hope that these conversations like this can lead
Speaker 2: to people doing their own research, finding the right sources
Speaker 2: so that they can actually be able to make sense of,
Speaker 2: you know, something that they may not understand, as well
Speaker 2: as opposed to having an assumption based on broad generalized
Speaker 2: headlines or.
Speaker 1: We're just seeing people that have no I'm always like, oh,
Speaker 1: I didn't know you were a medical professional. You're not
Speaker 1: talking about any other sort of medical care in this
Speaker 1: way when it's supported by every major medical institution in
Speaker 1: the United States.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you think trans men can add to
Speaker 2: the conversation of masculinity or add to the thoughts and
Speaker 2: belief system orund masculinity. Love to hear your perspectives on that.
Speaker 3: I think we can add something.
Speaker 2: I believe too.
Speaker 1: And the book Amateur I mentioned by Thomas H. McBee
Speaker 1: is so much about really a contemplation of masculinity, what
Speaker 1: it means to be a man, the man he wants
Speaker 1: to be.
Speaker 3: What have you beautiful book? I think you'd love it.
Speaker 1: I know I've had a lived experience of being perceived
Speaker 1: as not a man, of course, and also the sort
Speaker 1: of brief experience of like entering that space and like
Speaker 1: getting sort of treated in a different way or in
Speaker 1: many ways, I feel so much for CIS men being
Speaker 1: brought up and the limits put on them emotionally encouraged
Speaker 1: to be, you know, not sensitive, that vulnerability is weakness
Speaker 1: on some level or what have you just ingrained misogyny.
Speaker 1: Obviously we live in a very misogynistic society, queer phobic society,
Speaker 1: transphobic society, and having certain experiences I've had in my
Speaker 1: life with men has definitely highlighted certain things that I
Speaker 1: personally wouldn't want to be And I suppose trans man
Speaker 1: trans mask people can come to the table with with
Speaker 1: those experiences and potentially offer something different or an insight
Speaker 1: that's different, or I hope for CIS men in so
Speaker 1: many ways that there can be more encouragement for expressing
Speaker 1: emotion and sensitivity and having close friendships with other men
Speaker 1: and all these things that seem to happen that are.
Speaker 3: Toxic.
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Speaker 2: sure you use the code on purpose. Yeah, I think
Speaker 2: there's become such a pressure as well to just play
Speaker 2: the role of protector and provider and that stoic kind
Speaker 2: of cold demeanor around emotion or challenges or stress, and
Speaker 2: that comes with its own form of limits to the
Speaker 2: human experience to self expression to you know, I've always
Speaker 2: found personally because I was raised by my mom growing
Speaker 2: up and witnessed her struggle and her stress and her
Speaker 2: pain and her challenge and just her resilience, and then
Speaker 2: also with a younger sister, it was I found that
Speaker 2: very useful because I grew up in an environment that
Speaker 2: was highly emotive and highly supportive of being emotive and
Speaker 2: expressing emotion. And I often think about it, if I
Speaker 2: didn't have that experience, I don't know where else I
Speaker 2: would have got that from in my life. And that's
Speaker 2: interesting to think about, Like how I could have grown
Speaker 2: up and never had that compass it would it would
Speaker 2: never even have come across me. Where else would I
Speaker 2: have learned that? I wouldn't have definitely wouldn't have learned
Speaker 2: it at school, Definitely wouldn't have learned it at college
Speaker 2: and then in the world of work, I definitely would
Speaker 2: have learned it either, so you could literally spend your
Speaker 2: whole life and never access some of these subtle, nuanced
Speaker 2: expressions which are so key. Are there any specific interactions
Speaker 2: you've had or moments you've had where this kind of
Speaker 2: experience has been heightened or some of the things you
Speaker 2: mentioned that you felt like, oh wow, this was really
Speaker 2: powerful for someone or something.
Speaker 1: I think maybe it allowed me to have certain conversations
Speaker 1: with since men that I hadn't had before, Like it
Speaker 1: created an opening and I'd be quite frankly empathy because
Speaker 1: I've had not great experiences with men, and it's easy
Speaker 1: to lose some of the empathy sometimes, you know, I
Speaker 1: think it's allowed me to have conversations with men about
Speaker 1: how they have not felt permitted to express themselves or
Speaker 1: have close relationships with other men, or you know, a
Speaker 1: sort of a certain age where emoting or self expression
Speaker 1: in that way is not seen as a positive and
Speaker 1: if anything, you know, aggression is more you know, celebrated
Speaker 1: or encouraged, which is damaging to the person themselves and
Speaker 1: obviously the world. In my life, I've noticed things that
Speaker 1: are just more you know, subtle, but like men who
Speaker 1: used to do I hadn't seen them for a while.
Speaker 1: We used to hug and then now where like there's
Speaker 1: no hug, and I'm just like, you know, these little things,
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, that's fascinating, you know, you know, even
Speaker 1: myself at the very beginning, like going having these like
Speaker 1: really brief moments like oh should I talk with my hands?
Speaker 1: Lest like what elliot did that thought? Actually just enter
Speaker 1: your brain. No, be exactly who you are. But it
Speaker 1: highlighted something that, even just in that tiny amount of time,
Speaker 1: something in me was starting to judge myself about how
Speaker 1: I was going to be as the man that I
Speaker 1: am I'm going to grow up to be. And it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's sort of embarrassing to admit, but
Speaker 1: feeling those those sort of yeah pressures or misguided.
Speaker 3: Thoughts.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think it's allowed me to have quite
Speaker 1: meaningful conversations with with male friends that we hadn't really
Speaker 1: had before.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they probably haven't had before.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I think, and then I will say one thing, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot is blamed on testosterone. And
Speaker 1: as someone who's literally jokes on me going through purity again,
Speaker 1: I will say, like, I'm not more angry and the
Speaker 1: least angry I've ever been. It doesn't like I think,
Speaker 1: you know, we're not taking into account the degree of
Speaker 1: socialization and and like toxic limitations that encourage you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of the behavior and issues we see with
Speaker 1: toxic masculinity.
Speaker 2: Another challenge that you've raised in the book. You said,
Speaker 2: research has shown that transgender and gender on conforming youth
Speaker 2: are four times more likely to struggle with an eating disorder.
Speaker 2: That obviously creates its own complexity. What was the what
Speaker 2: is the research point to is the reason behind that
Speaker 2: and and how people can find support around that, especially
Speaker 2: with that complication.
Speaker 1: Well, gosh, I mean I'm not obviously like a professional.
Speaker 3: Gives some exact Yeah, what have you come across my question?
Speaker 1: I mean, from my experience, it's you know, a profound
Speaker 1: discomfort in the body of one leant to have a
Speaker 1: sense of control. For me, in some ways, I think
Speaker 1: to being smaller about it looked more boyish when I
Speaker 1: was that. You know, so this sort of way of
Speaker 1: like literally controlling the body and also just the sort
Speaker 1: of you know, sort of psychically mentally, so much of
Speaker 1: your time becomes consumed with those thoughts that I think
Speaker 1: it's allowing you to not focus on other things, to
Speaker 1: think about other things, to contemplate other things.
Speaker 2: You talk about in the book about how like your
Speaker 2: thoughts were consumed with contemplation for a very long time.
Speaker 2: And I guess that now that you're able to not
Speaker 2: have to contemplate those same thoughts almost like what we're
Speaker 2: talking about the beginning, about the thoughts about the future
Speaker 2: and the thoughts about it being impossible. What now that
Speaker 2: you have that headspace back, or hopefully more of it back,
Speaker 2: what would that now be? What are you directing that towards?
Speaker 2: What opportunity is that opening or where you able to
Speaker 2: spend that goat Power wrote a book.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wrote a Yeah, I wrote a book. I
Speaker 1: mean I make you know, for fun, like music with
Speaker 1: a friend. It's actually hard to describe when it's literally
Speaker 1: now every aspect and every moment of my life, you know,
Speaker 1: Like when people go, oh, what was your last incident
Speaker 1: of like gender euphoria, I'm like, oh, this morning when
Speaker 1: I was drinking coffee in silence and just being able
Speaker 1: to sit and have my coffee doing things in the
Speaker 1: past that like I did enjoy but a part of
Speaker 1: me wasn't there. So it could just be going to
Speaker 1: meet some friends in the park, and I'm really able
Speaker 1: to just be in the park with them. I'm not
Speaker 1: thinking about, oh, well are they gonna did I eat?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 1: You only ate this much time ago, and oh my god,
Speaker 1: I'm so uncomfortable and chucking down my shirt and looking
Speaker 1: and just kind of wanting to get out, always like
Speaker 1: always wanting to just this sense of always wanting to flee.
Speaker 1: And now sometimes, of course there's moments where I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'd really love to just be home reading a book
Speaker 1: right now. I mean like, I'm not like, it's not
Speaker 1: like I'm like Johnny's social all of a sudden, but
Speaker 1: going from having like a very difficult time being social
Speaker 1: and feeling connected or now getting to feel like immersed
Speaker 1: in life versus struggling to know how to live it.
Speaker 2: Well, that definitely registers hearing, that definitely hits. Thank you
Speaker 2: for explaining that. When you went on the book tour
Speaker 2: and you obviously, as you just said, you wrote the book.
Speaker 2: What's been what have been the responses that have really
Speaker 2: warmed your heart or that have really connected to you
Speaker 2: in a way that are going to stay with you
Speaker 2: for a long long time, either on tour or I'm
Speaker 2: sure you've had so many people write to you because
Speaker 2: of the book and write to your team and everyone else.
Speaker 2: What are some of the what are some of those
Speaker 2: that you could tell us now, especially now that the
Speaker 2: book's been out for a while, guessing it's only getting
Speaker 2: more and more.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the most moving.
Speaker 1: And beautiful responses are people kind of expressing it all
Speaker 1: ages how me sharing my story has helped them, you
Speaker 1: know now feel less alone, helped them talk to their
Speaker 1: parents in a new way, helped them feel carry less shame.
Speaker 1: Write a letter from someone who was they might have
Speaker 1: I might have been, you know, fifty, and they'd read
Speaker 1: the book and then like, you know, finally I had decided,
Speaker 1: yes I'm going on testosterone and just saying like how
Speaker 1: much that decision had changed their life. And I fully
Speaker 1: was like crying when I read this. I was just
Speaker 1: so well thankful that they'd want to, you know, share
Speaker 1: that with me. And also to know that anything you
Speaker 1: could have done or expressed would help someone feel less alone,
Speaker 1: because I know how alone you can feel, I know
Speaker 1: how overwhelmed and burdened you can feel by this self
Speaker 1: hate and discomfort that just is constantly running through your body,
Speaker 1: and what it means when you do get those moments
Speaker 1: of clarity and feel connection. As I've said, I've had
Speaker 1: that with books I've read or you know, friendships and
Speaker 1: what community communities offered me.
Speaker 3: So those are beautiful moments.
Speaker 1: And then even you know, a friend of mine whose
Speaker 1: trans mask and they their mom read the book and
Speaker 1: like a couple days and they said, I'm now having
Speaker 1: conversations with my mom that I didn't think were possible before.
Speaker 1: It's I mean, at the end of the day, like
Speaker 1: that's the point. I mean, that's really the point. It's like,
Speaker 1: why else am I like spilling my guts in this thing?
Speaker 1: Like sometimes I feel like, leading up to it coming out,
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, why'd you write about that?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: And then when you have those moments that you know
Speaker 1: it could be helping someone, it's just like to me,
Speaker 1: that's the point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you encounter anyone that initially may have been,
Speaker 2: you know, in their own way, initially critical or judgmental,
Speaker 2: and then was able to kind of even just sit
Speaker 2: with you and hear from you, or and was able
Speaker 2: to comprehend and understand just even a glimpse into the journey.
Speaker 2: Did you come across any of that or hear about
Speaker 2: any of those types of stories from anyone?
Speaker 1: I mean, I suppose people, I don't know if you know,
Speaker 1: the individual went on like some huge art change of
Speaker 1: things that it enabled them to think about and understand
Speaker 1: and the experience a bit more. And actually in so
Speaker 1: many ways that I think so special is how much
Speaker 1: they also related to it despite having a very different experience,
Speaker 1: you know, not being trans, and how did they relate
Speaker 1: to what was they related it being you know, ciste
Speaker 1: and gay and so obviously there's going to be like
Speaker 1: overlap there, but had maybe they did have their certain
Speaker 1: feelings about trans people or thoughts and the book really
Speaker 1: did help, you know, their mind changed too, it agree.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that. I mean, there's so many books
Speaker 2: that you mentioned today that I want to read and
Speaker 2: I know that you know, our community is hopefully going
Speaker 2: to read Pageboy as well after this. But it's fascinating
Speaker 2: to me just how how we all became trained in
Speaker 2: different ways, conditioned in different ways to become closed to
Speaker 2: experiences that you would hope we would have become more
Speaker 2: curious to learn about and more open to learn about.
Speaker 2: And it's it's fascinating to me as a SIS society
Speaker 2: howp we've become more and more close minded about so
Speaker 2: many issues as opposed to being broad minded when it
Speaker 2: obviously makes sense. To be open minded about things makes
Speaker 2: us a healthier, happier, more growth focused human. And for me,
Speaker 2: I've always talked about how I think the best thing
Speaker 2: that happened to me is I met people who were
Speaker 2: very different to society when I was young. And when
Speaker 2: I said different, I mean for me, it was meeting
Speaker 2: spiritual monks like that was my personal journey and so
Speaker 2: meeting a monk at eighteen years old was so random
Speaker 2: to my life's journey that it was great because it
Speaker 2: presented a whole new way of thinking, an ideology that
Speaker 2: I would never have ever thought could even be possible,
Speaker 2: and it became such a big part of my life.
Speaker 2: And I just I'm hoping that you know, stories like
Speaker 2: yours and stories like this will continue to help people
Speaker 2: open up their minds to recognize how much there is
Speaker 2: in common that we have and how much much there
Speaker 2: is in common experience that we can learn from and
Speaker 2: be guided by. Even if it's not the same experience.
Speaker 2: Would that be an accurate mission statement a part of
Speaker 2: the mission statement?
Speaker 1: Absolutely ideally, Yeah. And I mean I, you know, like
Speaker 1: memoir in particulars I read a lot of and love
Speaker 1: and so much of it are you know, stories that
Speaker 1: are very different than mine, and people with different experiences
Speaker 1: and identity and what have you that have deeply touched
Speaker 1: me and moved me and opened my mind and allowed
Speaker 1: me to grow and expand. And we're all learning all
Speaker 1: the time, you know, and it's it's beautiful to have
Speaker 1: the space or you know, to help create the space
Speaker 1: on any level that allows people to grow and expand
Speaker 1: in that way.
Speaker 2: How's your perspective on love changed? And the area of your.
Speaker 1: Life definitely very different now than I was in before.
Speaker 1: I was very much which I think is maybe relatively
Speaker 1: evident in the book, a bit of a serial monogenist
Speaker 1: and just like really did find it so hard to
Speaker 1: exist and function that I I do think I needed
Speaker 1: someone like I And the moment there was like attraction
Speaker 1: or a feeling. It's just sort of like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: like and like hold on tight, you know, and staying
Speaker 1: in situations that I'm sure a lot of people. Again,
Speaker 1: this is something that so many people would relate to
Speaker 1: in different ways, situations that weren't the wisest, that probably
Speaker 1: weren't great for either party involved, and that came from
Speaker 1: really just not knowing how to exist by myself and
Speaker 1: the feeling of love right ooh, that's like like we escape.
Speaker 1: It's pardon the pun, but transcendent, you know, it's and
Speaker 1: that feeling would give me a spark of life. It
Speaker 1: would give me a moment of I can breathe. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: though that's not the reason why I think we should
Speaker 1: be with someone, and it's tad selfish.
Speaker 3: On my part.
Speaker 1: And now I am so blown away by the fact
Speaker 1: that I can be alone like that is such an
Speaker 1: exhilarating sensation, an element of the feeling away I never
Speaker 1: thought was possible that Right now, I'm very much enjoying
Speaker 1: being you know, connecting with people, having some fun, but
Speaker 1: just sort of being on my own right now, and
Speaker 1: that is very new for me, very new for me.
Speaker 1: And I want love in a relationship to be you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, our stuff's always going to follow us into
Speaker 1: intimate relationships, I know it, you know, come from a
Speaker 1: solid and embodied foundation where I know, I'm going into
Speaker 1: that because we're going to love each other and explore
Speaker 1: life together and grow together, and not because I'm clinging
Speaker 1: to something for dear life.
Speaker 2: That sounds like it must be such a such a.
Speaker 3: So I'm single.
Speaker 2: I love it. That's brilliant. I was about to say, like,
Speaker 2: just how meaningful that must feel? Like, you know it
Speaker 2: must be. It sounds like such a profound place that
Speaker 2: you know, it's such a deep space to feel that
Speaker 2: scentedness and stillness in being with oneself and that confidence
Speaker 2: of just just being in oneself. But you're single, So
Speaker 2: that's we're going to throw that out there. How do
Speaker 2: you think the journey And of course you know the communities,
Speaker 2: the transc community so well, so you would know how
Speaker 2: how do you think the journey is different when you
Speaker 2: are in the public eye versus when you're not, Like
Speaker 2: there are the obvious differences, of course we've talked about
Speaker 2: like the pressure from successive movies and things like that,
Speaker 2: But are there any more nuanced to subtle things that
Speaker 2: some of us could miss in plain sight because you're
Speaker 2: not living that journey or you're not seeing.
Speaker 3: It, don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's so funny because it's just like my
Speaker 1: strange experience in this life. I mean maybe in that
Speaker 1: you're just going through this transition in front of a
Speaker 1: lot of people and having people speculate or make comments
Speaker 1: or assumptions about your life and your experience that can
Speaker 1: often be incredibly hurtful and demeaning. And at the same time,
Speaker 1: everything everything's like you know, relative, everyone's sort of having
Speaker 1: that in their own individual orbit. And my position of
Speaker 1: comes with such an enormous amount of privilege, like my
Speaker 1: life does not reflect the lives of most trans people
Speaker 1: who deal with you know, disproportionate amount of unemployment, poverty, incarceration, violence,
Speaker 1: et cetera, particularly black trans people. So I'd be lying
Speaker 1: if I said there weren't certain elements of this sort
Speaker 1: of unusual experience that don't have its sort of challenges
Speaker 1: or difficult moments. And at the same time, what I
Speaker 1: always go back to is the degree in which my
Speaker 1: privilege and resources help and also protect me. You know,
Speaker 1: if I'm getting threats, I have the money to hire security,
Speaker 1: I could get you know, pay for surgery to get
Speaker 1: it quickly. You know, all of these aspects that name change,
Speaker 1: you know, think about that all those documents, you're you know,
Speaker 1: you're passwords, like all of these things that for those
Speaker 1: that you know don't have the certain privileges and resources
Speaker 1: I have, is incredibly difficult and makes life incredibly difficult.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm glad you raised that point, because yeah,
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, we have we have to also look
Speaker 2: at it from that perspective of just again going back
Speaker 2: to the reality of what these choices and decisions like
Speaker 2: actually look like in the real world, because similar and
Speaker 2: I appreciate that view from you constantly of like looking
Speaker 2: at it from well, this is what it actually looks like,
Speaker 2: this is what's actually going on, this is this is
Speaker 2: what we may not see if we're only looking at
Speaker 2: the you know, the And again that doesn't take away
Speaker 2: from your journey as well, like that that shouldn't take
Speaker 2: away from the challenges and stresses and the realities of
Speaker 2: what you're experiencing. But I wanted to pivot to certain
Speaker 2: things because I feel like, I feel like the book
Speaker 2: is just the beginning of so many more exciting, incredible
Speaker 2: adventures of what you're going to do and achieve. And
Speaker 2: I heard that you're a big history buff and I'm
Speaker 2: guessing you're doing a lot of reading there. I wonder
Speaker 2: whether there's any has there been, and you talked about
Speaker 2: even just I love what you've been saying that just
Speaker 2: and you know, when I'm hearing someone speak and it
Speaker 2: really the way you express this is really going to
Speaker 2: stay with me. This idea that the biggest win is
Speaker 2: just you being able to do the simplest things in
Speaker 2: a present way like that will stay with me so
Speaker 2: much because it's something that we all take for granted
Speaker 2: so much, like you know you just I know I
Speaker 2: do like so it's a very easy thing to miss
Speaker 2: out on and some of us are not even present,
Speaker 2: but even if we are present, we take that for granted.
Speaker 2: And so the idea that you feel so much present
Speaker 2: in just having coffee this morning, or like reading a book,
Speaker 2: or being with friends in the park or what you know,
Speaker 2: all those examples you were giving, Yeah, I wanted to
Speaker 2: dive into what, seeing as you're such a big reader,
Speaker 2: when did you become such a history buff and what
Speaker 2: has been the latest historic discovery that has kind of
Speaker 2: brought you joy?
Speaker 3: I haven't been reading too much stuff about history.
Speaker 2: Or anything else, any anything you're reading.
Speaker 1: Oh, lately I've been reading Octavia Butler because I embarrassed
Speaker 1: to say I hadn't read Octavia Butler before, so I
Speaker 1: just read Wild Seed and Kindred. I guess obviously those
Speaker 1: books have a fantastical sort of history, but obviously a
Speaker 1: very intense history element to it, you know, particular, you know,
Speaker 1: Wild Seed and Kindred a very brutal history.
Speaker 3: I'm reading more novels lately.
Speaker 1: Yeah, obviously both of Octavia Butler's books are novels, but
Speaker 1: also Our Wives under the Sea was tremendous. Brandon Taylor's
Speaker 1: new novel I'm trying to called The Last Americans. It
Speaker 1: might be getting the name wrong, but his latest novel
Speaker 1: was amazing, so less like history.
Speaker 3: Specific, but it's all history.
Speaker 1: But obviously there's historical elements and a lot of the
Speaker 1: those different things, not really the Brandon Taylor one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the other ones. Yeah, no, no, And
Speaker 2: and I think that that is the point where, like
Speaker 2: I think biographies and diaries and autobiographies are all have
Speaker 2: historical elements to them. I mean, that's that's where they
Speaker 2: come from. And one part that felt very journal like
Speaker 2: in your book was at the end of the book,
Speaker 2: you described being at the show with Mark and having
Speaker 2: a moment of self love that you wanted to hold
Speaker 2: onto and you say, taking a deep breath, exhaling, exhaling
Speaker 2: down to my toes. I wanted to hold onto the feeling,
Speaker 2: to pocket the joy, the fleeting moments of self love.
Speaker 2: And I thought that felt very diary like, like, it
Speaker 2: felt very like journal thought is you know, very unique words.
Speaker 2: And I wanted to know, like, why did you choose
Speaker 2: to end the book at sixteen years old? Like again
Speaker 2: we talked about the nonlinear, but specifically to end on
Speaker 2: that after going through this journey back and forth? What
Speaker 2: was it? What was so? Yeah, why end on sixteen
Speaker 2: years old?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well, I felt like sort of began the book at
Speaker 1: this time that was also involved Mark, and was this
Speaker 1: period of feeling more self love, feeling closer to myself,
Speaker 1: falling in love with my first girlfriend, Paula, and then
Speaker 1: you know that leading up to a moment that was
Speaker 1: a big pivot in my life, and then to sort
Speaker 1: of you know, bookend that with this moment sixteen Peaches Concert,
Speaker 1: what would have been the queerest environment I'd probably been
Speaker 1: in at that point in my life and the just
Speaker 1: palpable joy, the electricity of it, and I'll never forget
Speaker 1: that night. I'll never forget walking home with Mark and
Speaker 1: what that felt like, what that community felt like. And
Speaker 1: to end on that note there at sixteen, having that
Speaker 1: atmosphere to go to, having that incredible performer who's inspired
Speaker 1: me since I was a teenager, it felt like a
Speaker 1: special moment to end on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely felt it, and it's wonderful to have
Speaker 2: that experience of euphoria through your experience in that moment.
Speaker 2: And you know, Elliott, I just want to say how
Speaker 2: honestly I was so excited to meet you today and
Speaker 2: do this interview. And I love it when this happens,
Speaker 2: when you get an experience that you didn't know you
Speaker 2: were going to get. And that's how I feel with
Speaker 2: you today, where you can always intellectualize what you think
Speaker 2: you're going to learn or what you think you're going
Speaker 2: to gain, and I had all those ideas, which I
Speaker 2: definitely have learned so much. It's not that I haven't learned,
Speaker 2: but it's I've kind of been moved more internally. And
Speaker 2: I feel that that's sometimes even more valuable because it's
Speaker 2: something that I can express from a deep place within myself.
Speaker 2: And I feel like I've been moved by you sharing
Speaker 2: your experience so thoughtfully and intimately in your book, but
Speaker 2: also even getting the opportunity to sit with you today.
Speaker 2: And I only have a couple more questions for you.
Speaker 2: We asked at the end of every interview to a
Speaker 2: final five, which is a fast five in the sense
Speaker 2: that they have to be answered in one word to
Speaker 2: one sentence maximum. But I always ruin it because I'm
Speaker 2: so intrigued by all my guests. But I'll try so,
Speaker 2: Elliott Paige, these are your final five. The first question
Speaker 2: is what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
Speaker 2: And it can be about any topic you choose it
Speaker 2: to be about.
Speaker 3: You know what.
Speaker 1: I don't know why this is popping into my brain,
Speaker 1: but there's a memory popping in my brain, so I'm like,
Speaker 1: why not go with this. And the time in that
Speaker 1: period when everyone sort of go to was your dream's
Speaker 1: coming true, Your dream's coming true, Your dream's coming true,
Speaker 1: Kate Winslet said to me. And I was still am
Speaker 1: obsessed with Kate Winslet love one of just my favorite
Speaker 1: actors of all time, and I was too shy to
Speaker 1: go up to her at this party or something. It
Speaker 1: would have been the first time that she just came
Speaker 1: up to me and was like, obviously, it took me
Speaker 1: a long time to listen to the advice properly, but
Speaker 1: she was just like, don't let them change you, like,
Speaker 1: don't like you hold on to yourself. Essentially, don't let
Speaker 1: this and I'll never forget it. Who was I think
Speaker 1: the only person in who that whole period basically said
Speaker 1: anything like that, you know from that, and I've always
Speaker 1: remembered it and always meantal art to me.
Speaker 2: I think that's a great answer, And yeah, what a
Speaker 2: beautiful stament. Don't let them change you, hold on to yourself.
Speaker 2: That's that's beautiful. Okay, great. Second question, what is the
Speaker 2: worst advice you've ever heard or received? Sure this is.
Speaker 5: Easier, Yeah, yeah, don't be Yeah, don't tell people you're
Speaker 5: queer and disguise yourself too to trick them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, even those words disguise yourself to trick them and
Speaker 2: say it's it's hard to live in a disguise and as.
Speaker 1: A trick, which is just so silly too, as if like,
Speaker 1: so you're telling me lesbians don't wear dress, like what
Speaker 1: are we like just the binary asthma. It's just ridiculous.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what are we trying to so boring? Question number three,
Speaker 2: what is something you used to value that you no
Speaker 2: longer value?
Speaker 1: I think like a certain idea what we envision success
Speaker 1: to be. You know, that's not really that important to
Speaker 1: me anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was clear from what you said earlier,
Speaker 2: the idea that you were willing to let it all go,
Speaker 2: if you were allowed to be who you are and
Speaker 2: be totally Yeah, it's like not what success means to me.
Speaker 2: Question number four, what is something that you're currently trying
Speaker 2: to unlearn?
Speaker 1: I guess still, you know, whatever shame still lingers that
Speaker 1: was projected onto me by those around me, society obviously
Speaker 1: in a so much better place, Like so much of
Speaker 1: it's probably unconscious, but as if it's not, you know,
Speaker 1: still lingering and still disconnecting from those thoughts or feelings
Speaker 1: that make you feel small.
Speaker 2: And fifth and final question. We asked this to every
Speaker 2: guest who's ever been on the show, and I'm really
Speaker 2: intrigued to hear your answer. If you could create one
Speaker 2: law that everyone in the world had to follow, what
Speaker 2: would it be? Kind you can take your.
Speaker 1: Time that everybody had to follow. Don't be a bully.
Speaker 2: That's a good one.
Speaker 3: Bullying is outlined.
Speaker 2: Yeah, any terrible bully. Yeah, I think that's a good law. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's a rule. It needs to become a law. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I love it, Elliott. Page Everyone in the book is
Speaker 2: called a page boy a memoir. If you haven't read
Speaker 2: it already, highly recommend it. Read it for your own education,
Speaker 2: share it with friends, make your next book club pick
Speaker 2: to be able to discuss it, dissect it, support the
Speaker 2: communities around you, support your friends who are on their journey.
Speaker 2: And I'd love you to share with me and Elliott
Speaker 2: the thoughts, the reflections, the insights that stayed with you.
Speaker 2: There were so many things that I felt and experienced
Speaker 2: through this conversation that are definitely going to stay with me.
Speaker 2: And i'd love to see. I know that you're phenomenal
Speaker 2: at doing this, You're phenomena that doing edits and on
Speaker 2: TikTok and Instagram and x and I'd love to see
Speaker 2: what are those moments in this interview and conversation that
Speaker 2: are going to stay with you and that you're going
Speaker 2: to pass on to others. Elliott, thank you so much
Speaker 2: for your time, your energy, your presence today. Like I said,
Speaker 2: I will take this experience around and share it with
Speaker 2: many people, because it's an experience that have really felt
Speaker 2: deeply through your words and through your presence today, and
Speaker 2: so often when I'm sitting in this chair, the number
Speaker 2: one feeling I'm having is I wish the world could
Speaker 2: feel what I'm feeling right now, because so often I'm
Speaker 2: feeling if people could understand the pain, the hurt, the
Speaker 2: trauma that people like yourself are experiencing, and could experience
Speaker 2: your humanity in the way that I'm experiencing, then maybe
Speaker 2: we wouldn't treat each other that way. Then maybe we
Speaker 2: wouldn't speak to each other that way, that maybe we
Speaker 2: wouldn't impact each other in that negative way. I'm really
Speaker 2: thankful I got to spend this time with you, and
Speaker 2: I really hope that more and more people get to
Speaker 2: experience you through your book and through your work so
Speaker 2: that they two can understand more about themselves and more
Speaker 2: about you. So thank you, so.
Speaker 3: Much, thank you so much. Thank you really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my
Speaker 2: conversation with Megan Trainer on breaking generational trauma and how
Speaker 2: to be confident from the inside out.
Speaker 4: My therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for
Speaker 4: five minutes. It was already tough for me to love
Speaker 4: my body, but after the C section scarf with all
Speaker 4: the stretch marks. Now I'm looking at myself like I've
Speaker 4: been hacked. But day three, when I did it, I
Speaker 4: was like, you know what, her thighs are cute