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Speaker 1: To be honest, so much of it is just about

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Speaker 1: not feeling like unset and in my trailer when I'm alone,

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Speaker 1: wanting to tear my skin off. So the future, I

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Speaker 1: think I couldn't see it because I didn't know how

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Speaker 1: much longer I'd last feeling that way in my day

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Speaker 1: to day life. Everyone's sort of go to was your

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Speaker 1: dream's coming true, Your dreams coming true, Your dream's coming true,

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Speaker 1: Kate Winslet said to me, don't let them change you.

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Speaker 2: Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite

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Speaker 2: you to join this community to hear more interviews that

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Speaker 2: will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All

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Speaker 2: I want you to do is click on the subscribe button.

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Speaker 2: I love your support. It's incredible to see all your

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Speaker 2: comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to

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Speaker 2: go on this journey with you. Thank you so much

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Speaker 2: for subscribing. It means the world to me.

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Speaker 3: The best selling author on the Post, the.

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Speaker 4: Number one Healthy Well inness podcast and Purpose.

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Speaker 2: With Jay Shetty, Welcome back to One Purpose. I'm so

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Speaker 2: excited because I get to sit down with Elliott Page.

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Speaker 2: Elliott Page is an Academy Award nominated actor, director, producer, writer,

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Speaker 2: and the New York Times best selling author. Known for

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Speaker 2: his indelible on screen presence in both tent poll and

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Speaker 2: art house films, Elliott uses his global platform to shed

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Speaker 2: light on important social and LGBTQ plus issues. Up next,

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Speaker 2: Elliott will starr in Close to You, which will have

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Speaker 2: its world premiere at the twenty twenty three Toronto International

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Speaker 2: Film Festival. Elliot's critically acclaimed debut book, a memoir, entitled

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Speaker 2: Page Boy, was published around the world in June twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three. The book became an instant bestseller, number one

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Speaker 2: atop the New York Times Bestseller List and receiving widespread

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Speaker 2: positive reviews. With Elliot's production company, Pageboy Productions, Elliott develops

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Speaker 2: and produces entertaining, original and socially responsible stories. Elliott, Welcome

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Speaker 2: to On Purpose.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for making the time for being here.

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Speaker 2: I know you're in LA only for a few days,

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Speaker 2: and I'm grateful that I get to steal some of

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Speaker 2: that time.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me here.

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Speaker 2: Well, today we're talking about your incredible new memoir. For

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Speaker 2: anyone who hasn't already read this book, I highly recommend

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Speaker 2: that you go and grab it. We're going to put

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Speaker 2: the link in the caption so that you can order

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Speaker 2: it right now. Page Boy, please make sure that you

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Speaker 2: go and grab a copy. If you're enjoying this conversation, Elliott.

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Speaker 2: When I was reading through the book, I was truly

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Speaker 2: just first of all, I just felt very grateful that

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Speaker 2: someone's letting us in on such an intimate part of

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Speaker 2: their life and doing it in such a graceful and

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Speaker 2: thoughtful way. And even the structure of the book too.

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Speaker 2: I was just like, Oh, this is like easing me

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Speaker 2: in in a way that I wouldn't expect to from

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Speaker 2: a memoir usually. And you chose this non linear approach

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Speaker 2: consciously and intentionally. Could you explain why you felt that

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Speaker 2: that was the right way to share your story?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, for me, the non linearity of it

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Speaker 1: is a reflection on some level of speaking for myself,

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Speaker 1: the trans and queer experience, and how that journey weaves,

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Speaker 1: how we get close to where truth potentially pull back,

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Speaker 1: maybe know ourselves very very deeply before we've been inundated

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Speaker 1: with you know, the society and its expectations that are

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Speaker 1: often toxic and limiting, and you know, so for me,

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Speaker 1: in regards to exploration of memory and of those moments

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Speaker 1: of my life where I did feel close and then

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Speaker 1: would pull back, potentially because I was frightened, overwhelmed, or

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Speaker 1: what have you. So I guess also personally, I enjoy

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Speaker 1: when books are nonlinear. You know, we're in different themes

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Speaker 1: and topics and history and emotion and what have you

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Speaker 1: can all sort of collide. So that's just inherently, I guess,

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Speaker 1: exciting to me. And also, yeah, I think it reflects

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Speaker 1: the sort of queer trans journey on some level.

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Speaker 2: I love the phrase you just used, the exploration of memory.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, my mind just latched onto it and

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Speaker 2: I thought, wow, that's a really interesting way of putting it.

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Speaker 2: I think our memory so often is a beautiful thing.

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Speaker 2: It so often fails us. It's so often skewed. What

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Speaker 2: was it like for you going down memory lane? And

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Speaker 2: when you said exploration of memory, what did you discover

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Speaker 2: or explore about memory? When you're putting together a memoir,

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Speaker 2: I feel like I feel like there must be something

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Speaker 2: in there for me.

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Speaker 3: So many of.

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Speaker 1: You know, the stories or the moments that I chose

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Speaker 1: are ones that have just always been vibrating right under

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Speaker 1: the surface and found the act of writing it in

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Speaker 1: many ways was quite organic. It was sort of I'd

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Speaker 1: sit down, think of a period, think of a relationship

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Speaker 1: that could potentially sort of speak to many things during

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Speaker 1: that time, or a friendship or an incident or what

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Speaker 1: have you, and then sort of mold around that. And

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Speaker 1: for me, so much of what came up was the

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Speaker 1: stuff that was kind of always running around my brain.

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Speaker 1: So some of my earliest memories when I was, you know,

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Speaker 1: in preschool to obviously then all over the place throughout

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Speaker 1: so I think a lot of the the instances and

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Speaker 1: feelings were quite sort of readily available and tangible.

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Speaker 3: For me.

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Speaker 1: The experience was I don't know if this comes from

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Speaker 1: like acting or having so much of my life being

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Speaker 1: a part of telling stories, where it was as if

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Speaker 1: I could sort of picture the moment and feel the moment,

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Speaker 1: and it was as if I was just describing this

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Speaker 1: movie I was watching or something.

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Speaker 2: Do you find that I'm always fascinated by this, especially

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Speaker 2: with people who are in filmmaking. Do you find that

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Speaker 2: when you're looking at a memory you're seeing yourself move

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Speaker 2: or are you kind of the person doing the moving?

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Speaker 2: Does that make sense?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: It does.

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Speaker 1: I think probably both the combination of the two probably

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Speaker 1: also a conscious removal on some level to be able to,

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Speaker 1: you know, give a texture and description that hopefully will

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Speaker 1: you know, pull the reader into it.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely well. I always find that all my memories, which

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Speaker 2: it took me a long time to realize this, all

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Speaker 2: my memories that are based on pictures are ones that

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Speaker 2: I'm seeing myself as opposed to memories that I actually

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Speaker 2: have from my mind.

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Speaker 3: If that, yeah, if that.

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Speaker 2: Makes sense, Like whenever I see a picture of me

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Speaker 2: and my family, then I'm like, oh, actually, I don't

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Speaker 2: have a memory of that. I just have a picture

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Speaker 2: that sparks something for you. Was there a memory that

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Speaker 2: was more of a discovery or a memory that was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I didn't I forgot that that happened, or I maybe

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Speaker 2: didn't pay enough attention to that when it happened. Was

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Speaker 2: there anything that came up that way or was it

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Speaker 2: more just things that were already there.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't say anything sort of necessarily sparked or emerged

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Speaker 1: out of nowhere that was a surprise. But I think

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Speaker 1: on some level, and this made you know, the experience

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Speaker 1: of writing it of course intense in moments but ultimately

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Speaker 1: really healing and cathartic. I think there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of memories that I had just so swept under the rug,

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Speaker 1: where you become so conditioned to let certain things go,

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Speaker 1: certain behavior coming at you go that even sitting here

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Speaker 1: right now, I can kind of feel it in my

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Speaker 1: body to register how much certain things really did affect

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Speaker 1: me and my life and my physical wellbeing and my

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Speaker 1: emotional wellbeing.

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Speaker 3: And what have you.

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Speaker 1: So it was almost more like there was like a

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Speaker 1: therapeutic element to it on some level, but sitting with

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Speaker 1: the reality of some things that I think was actually

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Speaker 1: really important.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thank you for doing it here and here

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Speaker 2: in both places, because I can only imagine how much

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Speaker 2: courage it takes to do that. So thank you for

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Speaker 2: even experiencing even now, as you were saying, you can

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Speaker 2: feel it in your body and I can see that

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Speaker 2: it's I can only imagine how much card doses that take.

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Speaker 2: So you thank you for going there for us. How

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Speaker 2: does it feel to finally be living the way you've

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Speaker 2: always wanted to and being perceived in the way you've

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Speaker 2: always perceived yourself.

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Speaker 3: It's like.

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Speaker 1: Getting to feel a way that I never thought was

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Speaker 1: possible when I would just think about my future and

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Speaker 1: how I was going to feel, and I had a

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Speaker 1: very difficult time seeing it. Even this morning, I saw

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Speaker 1: a friend and I don't see him as much because

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Speaker 1: he lives here, and he's just like this like lightness

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Speaker 1: in you. He's just like, oh my gosh, it's such.

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Speaker 3: An amazing thing to see.

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Speaker 1: And this is someone who's been in my life since

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Speaker 1: I was, you know, first really in Los Angeles at

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Speaker 1: the age of about twenty, like consistently is when we

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Speaker 1: first met initially. So it's, yeah, it's getting to exist

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Speaker 1: in a way that I never thought possible. Doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: I'm not human who doesn't have difficult days or you know,

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Speaker 1: sparks of anxiety naturally, but it's a complete game changer

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Speaker 1: just getting to feel being able to do this, This

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Speaker 1: would have been one impossible. Before impossible, I could have

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Speaker 1: never simply the action of sitting down for the length

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Speaker 1: that it to have space in my mind freed from

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Speaker 1: everything else that was occupying it, to feel the sort

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Speaker 1: of surge of creativity and feelings of just being inspired

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Speaker 1: and waking up and being able to actually sit down

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Speaker 1: with myself and do something like this. Impossible before impossible.

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Speaker 2: What would your thoughts about the future have been then

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Speaker 2: that you think made it feel so impossible? As you said,

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Speaker 2: used to think about the future, and it could never

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Speaker 2: have felt as good as it does today despite there

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Speaker 2: being natural human challenges obviously, But yeah, what would that

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Speaker 2: picture of the future would have been.

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Speaker 1: I think the way the way to explain it is

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Speaker 1: almost like it's almost as if your days. I just

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Speaker 1: do feel like for very significant periods of my life,

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Speaker 1: I struggled to function on a pretty basic level. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was hard for me to just literally sit down.

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Speaker 1: It was hard for me to be productive, it was

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Speaker 1: hard for me to be you know, present at all.

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Speaker 1: And so the future, I think I couldn't see it

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Speaker 1: because I didn't know how much longer i'd last feeling

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Speaker 1: that way in my day to day life.

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Speaker 2: How does it feel now reconnecting with acting, being who

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Speaker 2: you've always been and being perceived in that way? Like,

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Speaker 2: what is acting like now? Has your relationship with acting changed?

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Speaker 2: Is it better? Is it more?

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Speaker 3: So much better?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I mean literally everything my life is

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Speaker 1: better now because of how I get to feel and

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Speaker 1: feeling embodied and present and you know, all these things

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Speaker 1: really for the first time, because this is the other

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Speaker 1: thing I have people say to me, or I'd say

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Speaker 1: to myself, like like, you're an actor, just put on

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Speaker 1: the clothes, flip the switch, play the game, you know whatever.

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Speaker 1: But I wasn't starting from this foundational place of myself.

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Speaker 1: And as much as acting is about inhabiting you know,

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Speaker 1: another personality or you know whatever, manfestations of a character,

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Speaker 1: what have you, you're always bringing yourself to a role

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Speaker 1: right like you're It's so much about connecting to a character,

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Speaker 1: to a story, to motivation, to emotion, to trauma to whatever,

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Speaker 1: to the joy, to what have you, and developing your

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Speaker 1: connection with that and then molding something on them. So

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Speaker 1: I used to be so profoundly uncomfortable, and I feel

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Speaker 1: like I see that and work like inability to sort

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Speaker 1: of I almost think of the word loose, and now

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Speaker 1: there's like this like looseness. There's this ability to just

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Speaker 1: like exist every day on set, be in my body,

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Speaker 1: and that's the starting point. I'm not having to like

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Speaker 1: fight through something to get to the starting point, you

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Speaker 1: know where. I know people approach the work differently, but

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Speaker 1: to me, it's about being as present and open as

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Speaker 1: absolutely possible with all the you know, information you've gathered

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Speaker 1: about how you want to you know, play this role

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Speaker 1: or approach it. So it's allowing for that, and it's

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Speaker 1: feeling like how acting felt in the moments when I

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Speaker 1: was the most inspired, which usually were roles that somewhat

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Speaker 1: I could almost handle, you know, I could handle the

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Speaker 1: you know, there'd still be some discomfort, but it was

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Speaker 1: at least somewhat closer to who I was, which again

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Speaker 1: sounds counterintuitive to acting, but to me, the presence of

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Speaker 1: it is what makes it possible and the most powerful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to even though something's in art and

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Speaker 2: then there's humans, it's hard to separate the two, Like

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Speaker 2: it's hard to just say, well, that's an art. You

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Speaker 2: turn it on like an off, like a switch, and

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Speaker 2: then there's your life. And I think we all know that,

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Speaker 2: regardless of our disposition or set up, the two intertwine anyway, absolutely,

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Speaker 2: you know. And so what parts of the art do

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Speaker 2: you feel have drastically improved for you know, like that

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Speaker 2: you just feel more connected to or as you said,

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Speaker 2: I love the words open and present to you.

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Speaker 1: I mean to be honest, So much of it is

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Speaker 1: just about not feeling like unset and in my trailer

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Speaker 1: when I'm alone and wanting to tear my skin off

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Speaker 1: I don't know whatever, the sort of physical ways that

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Speaker 1: I would feel and like I can't remember, I'd call

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Speaker 1: my you know, manager on films and just be like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not okay, like and not necessarily having the words

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Speaker 1: or having them, but not not being able to fully

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Speaker 1: follow through with the thought. I guess so so much

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Speaker 1: of is it actually is like? To be honest, if

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Speaker 1: someone had told me, oh, you've come out as trands

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Speaker 1: and you'll never work as an actor again, I would

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Speaker 1: have been like cool, Like all right, I'd way rather

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Speaker 1: live my life life and be myself and engage with

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Speaker 1: the world is myself and feel embodied and not feel

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Speaker 1: like I don't know how to get through the day

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Speaker 1: not interested. So for me, I'm mostly like okay, cool

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Speaker 1: that the you know, if I keep if I do

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Speaker 1: get cast, the fallout does seem to be this very

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Speaker 1: positive aspect of feeling so much more grounded and present

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Speaker 1: that I think I will it's going to make performances better,

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Speaker 1: and if it doesn't.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't, I don't really care. That's not what life's about

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Speaker 3: for me.

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Speaker 1: Had been in movies that have done well, in movies

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Speaker 1: that have not done well, and you're still where you

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Speaker 1: are and living your life and.

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Speaker 3: I'm good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I mean that that is I

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Speaker 2: love you said That's what life's about, and I think

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Speaker 2: it's so true. Like for all of us in our

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Speaker 2: own way, is wanting to feel that we can truly

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Speaker 2: be who we are and be seen for who we

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Speaker 2: are and be accepted for who we are is kind

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Speaker 2: of what all of us on our journey are pursuing

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Speaker 2: and seeking. And when you say and it sounds like

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Speaker 2: to me and I'm trying to deeply understand this as well,

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Speaker 2: it's like when you say in the book you talk

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Speaker 2: about how you like I knew when I was four

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Speaker 2: years old, and it's like that knowingness, and then you

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Speaker 2: use the language of like, you know, tearing off your

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Speaker 2: own skin, like that idea to me feels like when

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Speaker 2: there's such a strong knowingness inside, knowing is different to feeling.

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Speaker 2: And it sounds like when I was reading, I was like,

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Speaker 2: there was just knowingness and I was intrigued as to

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Speaker 2: is that the right language? Do you agree with that?

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Speaker 2: And what is the difference for you between knowing and feeling,

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Speaker 2: because I think knowing is so much more of this

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Speaker 2: like visceral, deep grounded rooting feeling.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I suppose they're probably both obviously interrelated

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Speaker 1: to a degree and connect I mean, I think at

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Speaker 1: those which are some of my earliest memories, like these

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Speaker 1: moments that were just always like right under the surface,

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Speaker 1: was so much of how I felt at that age

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Speaker 1: and who I knew myself to be, and how perplexed

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Speaker 1: I was at how the.

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Speaker 3: World was seeing me. And then.

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Speaker 1: And when I was about ten, sort of like kind

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Speaker 1: of like pushing my mother to the degree that I

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Speaker 1: was like really actually getting to present how I wanted

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Speaker 1: and like remembering just how good that felt and the

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Speaker 1: solidness and this way I could could exist in the

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Speaker 1: world without the similar feelings that I had as a

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Speaker 1: full blown adult of wanting to rip my skin off

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Speaker 1: that I was feeling at really young ages and not

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Speaker 1: obviously having the words for but in some ways they're

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Speaker 1: like no, wait, I did have the words for them.

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Speaker 1: I was going, this is who I am and want

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Speaker 1: to be, and these are the things that I want

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Speaker 1: to wear and how I want to look and present.

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Speaker 1: And you had people going you know No, I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: you know. So in some ways they're like, wait, no,

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Speaker 1: I did have the words, and also I guess I

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Speaker 1: did to a degree in my twenties, and same thing.

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Speaker 1: People are going, no, you can't do that. You have

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Speaker 1: to do this if you want a future in this industry,

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Speaker 1: for example, or you have to be closeted or what

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Speaker 1: have you. So I think for me, the knowing and

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Speaker 1: the feeling relate. The knowing and feeling good about the

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Speaker 1: knowing is when you feel euphoria, is when you feel

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Speaker 1: that sense of connection, when that's incongruence with what you've

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Speaker 1: been labeled as and defined as and how you're getting

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Speaker 1: treated versus who you know you are. Then when that's

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Speaker 1: heightened and like you're losing the sense of the knowing,

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Speaker 1: that's when all these awful feelings come up and the

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Speaker 1: manifestation and the consequences that are self harm obviously, mental

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Speaker 1: health struggles and what have you, feelings of hopelessness. So

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Speaker 1: I suppose they entwine in that way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, definitely. I'm curious as to friends that you've

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Speaker 2: had in the community who may have been more limited

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Speaker 2: by those statements or that pushback or that judgment how

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Speaker 2: have you been able to talk to others in the community.

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Speaker 2: What have those conversations look like when they're at their

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Speaker 2: healthiest and at their best.

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Speaker 1: Gosh, well, I'd say those conversations are crucial, right, I'd

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Speaker 1: say community is maybe the biggest reason why I'm even

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Speaker 1: here and able to exist, and a lot of those conversations,

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Speaker 1: and it goes both ways. In the conversations, is someone

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Speaker 1: speaking to something that might be a thought or a

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Speaker 1: feeling that you thought you were alone with because we

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Speaker 1: obviously don't, you know, there's not a tremendous amount of representation.

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Speaker 1: And when you are able to connect with someone that's

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Speaker 1: having these similar experiences that have made you feel very alone,

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Speaker 1: that have filled you with shame potentially or put you

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Speaker 1: into a sense of hiding.

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Speaker 2: Is the.

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Speaker 1: Not that you want anyone else to be suffering by

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Speaker 1: any means, but when you're able to speak to someone

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Speaker 1: else who's also maybe had the similar feelings when they

357
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Speaker 1: were for who's maybe had similar manifestations of their pain,

358
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Speaker 1: I suppose you feel less alone. You are then in

359
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Speaker 1: a position where you know I can offer support, and

360
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 1: support has been offered to me from so many trans

361
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Speaker 1: people that I'm close to and people I've never met

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Speaker 1: whose books I've read, you know, who've deeply inspired me.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, were there any particular books or people that

364
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Speaker 2: you didn't know that you came across that you think

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Speaker 2: you'd recommend to people to connect with, that you felt

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Speaker 2: were powerful for you while you obviously now that your

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00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 2: book's going to play the same role for so many others.

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Speaker 1: Gosh, I mean so many. And then yeah, some people

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Speaker 1: I know, some I don't. And also a couple of

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Speaker 1: books I've read recently. Actually, Travis Alabanza's book that came

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Speaker 1: out in the UK comes out here I think next month,

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Speaker 1: called None of the Above is just.

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Speaker 3: Astounding. I don't know if you're familiar with.

374
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Speaker 2: Them, No, No, I'm not.

375
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Speaker 3: Yeah, brilliant.

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Speaker 1: Also a British book called A trans Man Walks into

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00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 1: a Gay Bar by Harry Nicholas. Stunning book anyway, I

378
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Speaker 1: just sort of like just read those. Oh, I just

379
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,639
Speaker 1: read a collection of I don't know if you're familiar

380
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 1: with lou Sullivan. They've published like massive amount of his

381
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Speaker 1: diaries which I just read, and that was atually quite

382
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 1: an interesting read because at first you're reading someone's diary

383
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 1: like it is very I did this, then I met

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Speaker 1: this person, and then you really get into the flow

385
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 1: of it, and it's very you know, it's beautiful. It's

386
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 1: emotional and intense. And Janet Mark's books which are stunning.

387
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 1: Those I read probably around the age of thirty, Thomas

388
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,879
Speaker 1: Page mcbee's book Amateur and man Alive.

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Speaker 2: I'm blinking, no, I mean, you've given us a great list.

390
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 2: That's a phenomenal list to even get started with. And

391
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Speaker 2: it's it's incredible to hear how much you know, I mean,

392
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 2: you were just reeling off of book names there, but

393
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,400
Speaker 2: it's like some mu's deep study of you know, did

394
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Speaker 2: you ever keep a diary or during this time, or

395
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Speaker 2: a journal or anything at all all over your time

396
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,200
Speaker 2: or was this something that was all happening in your mind?

397
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 3: Ultimately mine, for the most part, they were little.

398
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,880
Speaker 1: I did go like hunting and h for any kind

399
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 1: of old writing from whatever age, and I found some

400
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 1: things as a teen, late teens, and like little things

401
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 1: from in my twenties and did kind of regret not

402
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: writing more because a lot of those were really helpful

403
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 1: and fascinating to just read, you know, thinking back, So no,

404
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 1: not so much, but yeah, but.

405
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 2: You'd recommend it as a yes, as a practice.

406
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 3: And I keep meaning to do it, and I thought even.

407
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 1: Maybe I like I wrote a book. Book tour was

408
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 1: a lot. I'm like, I'm just taking a moment and

409
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 1: then all I think that's fair. Back into the writing flow.

410
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's completely fair. Books and book to us,

411
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 2: it's almost like you finish writing a book and you

412
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 2: think the job's done, and then it's like just started

413
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:57,199
Speaker 2: and it's yeah, no, completely completely understand that you You

414
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 2: were saying that, you know, and I liked how you

415
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 2: were thinking that through you I actually did have the

416
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 2: right words at four and then at ten. And I

417
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 2: wonder how many young people are going to have the

418
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 2: same conversation with their parents in the next few years.

419
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 2: I think, you know, we're going to have more parents

420
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,360
Speaker 2: hearing the words that you used to from their children.

421
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 2: What do you think would be a healthy response from

422
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 2: parents that you think would be helpful or that you

423
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 2: would encourage so that they could be able to better

424
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 2: stay connected to their children as they're going on their

425
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 2: own journey.

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Speaker 1: I think you really need to just listen to your

427
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 1: children and not be dismissive of what they're expressing. Shame

428
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,479
Speaker 1: them or embarrass them for what they're expressing, and allow

429
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: a child the space to explore, you know, I mean,

430
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 1: even as an adult, the things I was saying to myself,

431
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: the things I'd internalized. And I remember this moment which

432
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 1: when people say things like what do you say to

433
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: young people who might be struggling or people are struggling?

434
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: Is I went from oh am I the oh I

435
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: don't know, oh, to well, wait, why does this energy

436
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 1: need to be this way? Why can't I just be

437
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: going huh hmm, yeah, maybe I am. Maybe y'all go

438
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: and find someone and finally sit down and really commit

439
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: to speaking about this and how I'm feeling in my

440
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: relationship with my gender in my body because I'm not okay,

441
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: And why can't I put my shoulders back and speak

442
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: to this and explore this? And I think in so

443
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: many ways, it's just about creating that space, that gentleness

444
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: and listening and educating yourself. You know, there is a

445
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: lack of information and there isn't a tremendous amount of

446
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 1: lies and misinformation about trans people, particularly about our health care,

447
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: particularly about health care for youth. So also try and

448
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 1: educate yourself from actual sources, from lived experience and also

449
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 1: care that's supported by every major medical institution in the

450
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: United States.

451
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 2: Could you exp and, if this is your field of knowledge,

452
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 2: could you expand on some of those lives or some

453
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 2: of that misinformation that's out there, especially to do with healthcare,

454
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: because I think that would be really useful if you

455
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 2: feel comfortable to you.

456
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: I mean, I can, I can do my best, I

457
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 1: guess yeah, But I mean the idea that children's bodies

458
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 1: are being mutilated flat out liy just literally not true.

459
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: The idea that puberty blockers are experimental, Nope, They've been

460
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: used for decades for children who have precocious puberty. And

461
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 1: this care is sort of framed as something that's like

462
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: very easily accessible and immediate.

463
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:53,360
Speaker 3: Not the case at all.

464
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: Most trans people are have an incredibly difficult time access

465
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: and care. It's not how it's being framed in terms

466
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: of this as if it's getting like pushed. It's like

467
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 1: the opposite. And this is like a very thorough patient

468
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: process that deeply involves the parents of course, and so

469
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: much of the care for children or you know, young kids,

470
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: it's just about supporting them, supporting a social transition potentially,

471
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 1: you know, name change, program change, how they might want

472
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: to dress, cut their hair, whatever, you know, very you know,

473
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 1: basic aspects of you know, how we exist an how

474
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: we're alive. And then you know, the moment a child

475
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: starts to show any sort of characteristic of puberty, that's

476
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: when the conversation weighed out, conversation with all the information

477
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 1: everybody involved about puberty blockers, which can stop and then

478
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: you know, if that's the choice or continue potentially to hormones.

479
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 1: And then when we're talking about any kind of you know,

480
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: surgical aspect, nothing like that is happening until the age

481
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: of typically eighteen, in some cases sixteen.

482
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 2: But so.

483
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: I guess that's like the bulk of what I see

484
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 1: is this idea that children are getting like mutilated or

485
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: brainwashed or in environments that are forcing it. It's the opposite. Actually,

486
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: you know, trans and gender nonconforming people are bully deal

487
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: with disproportionate violence, so so much of that is just

488
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: just literally not true.

489
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, no, it's

490
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: it's useful because, yeah, I think that the challenges with

491
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 2: with all of this is, like you said, there's so

492
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 2: much information that it's hard for misinformation and information that

493
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 2: it's hard for people to kind of hear about things effectively,

494
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,719
Speaker 2: and we hope that these conversations like this can lead

495
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 2: to people doing their own research, finding the right sources

496
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 2: so that they can actually be able to make sense of,

497
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 2: you know, something that they may not understand, as well

498
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 2: as opposed to having an assumption based on broad generalized

499
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 2: headlines or.

500
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: We're just seeing people that have no I'm always like, oh,

501
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: I didn't know you were a medical professional. You're not

502
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: talking about any other sort of medical care in this

503
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: way when it's supported by every major medical institution in

504
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: the United States.

505
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you think trans men can add to

506
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: the conversation of masculinity or add to the thoughts and

507
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 2: belief system orund masculinity. Love to hear your perspectives on that.

508
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 3: I think we can add something.

509
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: I believe too.

510
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: And the book Amateur I mentioned by Thomas H. McBee

511
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: is so much about really a contemplation of masculinity, what

512
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: it means to be a man, the man he wants

513
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: to be.

514
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 3: What have you beautiful book? I think you'd love it.

515
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: I know I've had a lived experience of being perceived

516
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: as not a man, of course, and also the sort

517
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: of brief experience of like entering that space and like

518
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: getting sort of treated in a different way or in

519
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: many ways, I feel so much for CIS men being

520
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: brought up and the limits put on them emotionally encouraged

521
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: to be, you know, not sensitive, that vulnerability is weakness

522
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: on some level or what have you just ingrained misogyny.

523
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: Obviously we live in a very misogynistic society, queer phobic society,

524
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: transphobic society, and having certain experiences I've had in my

525
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: life with men has definitely highlighted certain things that I

526
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: personally wouldn't want to be And I suppose trans man

527
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: trans mask people can come to the table with with

528
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: those experiences and potentially offer something different or an insight

529
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: that's different, or I hope for CIS men in so

530
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: many ways that there can be more encouragement for expressing

531
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: emotion and sensitivity and having close friendships with other men

532
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: and all these things that seem to happen that are.

533
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 3: Toxic.

534
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,760
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535
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536
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537
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538
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539
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540
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541
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542
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543
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544
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545
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546
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547
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548
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549
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550
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551
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552
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553
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554
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555
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 2: sure you use the code on purpose. Yeah, I think

556
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 2: there's become such a pressure as well to just play

557
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 2: the role of protector and provider and that stoic kind

558
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 2: of cold demeanor around emotion or challenges or stress, and

559
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 2: that comes with its own form of limits to the

560
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: human experience to self expression to you know, I've always

561
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 2: found personally because I was raised by my mom growing

562
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 2: up and witnessed her struggle and her stress and her

563
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 2: pain and her challenge and just her resilience, and then

564
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 2: also with a younger sister, it was I found that

565
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 2: very useful because I grew up in an environment that

566
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 2: was highly emotive and highly supportive of being emotive and

567
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 2: expressing emotion. And I often think about it, if I

568
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 2: didn't have that experience, I don't know where else I

569
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: would have got that from in my life. And that's

570
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 2: interesting to think about, Like how I could have grown

571
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,439
Speaker 2: up and never had that compass it would it would

572
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 2: never even have come across me. Where else would I

573
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: have learned that? I wouldn't have definitely wouldn't have learned

574
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,760
Speaker 2: it at school, Definitely wouldn't have learned it at college

575
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 2: and then in the world of work, I definitely would

576
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 2: have learned it either, so you could literally spend your

577
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 2: whole life and never access some of these subtle, nuanced

578
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 2: expressions which are so key. Are there any specific interactions

579
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: you've had or moments you've had where this kind of

580
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 2: experience has been heightened or some of the things you

581
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 2: mentioned that you felt like, oh wow, this was really

582
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 2: powerful for someone or something.

583
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 1: I think maybe it allowed me to have certain conversations

584
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: with since men that I hadn't had before, Like it

585
00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: created an opening and I'd be quite frankly empathy because

586
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: I've had not great experiences with men, and it's easy

587
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: to lose some of the empathy sometimes, you know, I

588
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,240
Speaker 1: think it's allowed me to have conversations with men about

589
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: how they have not felt permitted to express themselves or

590
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: have close relationships with other men, or you know, a

591
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 1: sort of a certain age where emoting or self expression

592
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 1: in that way is not seen as a positive and

593
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: if anything, you know, aggression is more you know, celebrated

594
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: or encouraged, which is damaging to the person themselves and

595
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: obviously the world. In my life, I've noticed things that

596
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: are just more you know, subtle, but like men who

597
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: used to do I hadn't seen them for a while.

598
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: We used to hug and then now where like there's

599
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 1: no hug, and I'm just like, you know, these little things,

600
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, that's fascinating, you know, you know, even

601
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: myself at the very beginning, like going having these like

602
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: really brief moments like oh should I talk with my hands?

603
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 1: Lest like what elliot did that thought? Actually just enter

604
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: your brain. No, be exactly who you are. But it

605
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: highlighted something that, even just in that tiny amount of time,

606
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: something in me was starting to judge myself about how

607
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: I was going to be as the man that I

608
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: am I'm going to grow up to be. And it's

609
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's sort of embarrassing to admit, but

610
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: feeling those those sort of yeah pressures or misguided.

611
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 3: Thoughts.

612
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think it's allowed me to have quite

613
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: meaningful conversations with with male friends that we hadn't really

614
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: had before.

615
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they probably haven't had before.

616
00:36:58,960 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

617
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: And I think, and then I will say one thing, Yeah,

618
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot is blamed on testosterone. And

619
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 1: as someone who's literally jokes on me going through purity again,

620
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 1: I will say, like, I'm not more angry and the

621
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: least angry I've ever been. It doesn't like I think,

622
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: you know, we're not taking into account the degree of

623
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: socialization and and like toxic limitations that encourage you know,

624
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: a lot of the behavior and issues we see with

625
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: toxic masculinity.

626
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 2: Another challenge that you've raised in the book. You said,

627
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 2: research has shown that transgender and gender on conforming youth

628
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 2: are four times more likely to struggle with an eating disorder.

629
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 2: That obviously creates its own complexity. What was the what

630
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 2: is the research point to is the reason behind that

631
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 2: and and how people can find support around that, especially

632
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 2: with that complication.

633
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: Well, gosh, I mean I'm not obviously like a professional.

634
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 3: Gives some exact Yeah, what have you come across my question?

635
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: I mean, from my experience, it's you know, a profound

636
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: discomfort in the body of one leant to have a

637
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,479
Speaker 1: sense of control. For me, in some ways, I think

638
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 1: to being smaller about it looked more boyish when I

639
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: was that. You know, so this sort of way of

640
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: like literally controlling the body and also just the sort

641
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: of you know, sort of psychically mentally, so much of

642
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: your time becomes consumed with those thoughts that I think

643
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: it's allowing you to not focus on other things, to

644
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: think about other things, to contemplate other things.

645
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 2: You talk about in the book about how like your

646
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 2: thoughts were consumed with contemplation for a very long time.

647
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 2: And I guess that now that you're able to not

648
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 2: have to contemplate those same thoughts almost like what we're

649
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 2: talking about the beginning, about the thoughts about the future

650
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 2: and the thoughts about it being impossible. What now that

651
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 2: you have that headspace back, or hopefully more of it back,

652
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 2: what would that now be? What are you directing that towards?

653
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 2: What opportunity is that opening or where you able to

654
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,439
Speaker 2: spend that goat Power wrote a book.

655
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wrote a Yeah, I wrote a book. I

656
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 1: mean I make you know, for fun, like music with

657
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: a friend. It's actually hard to describe when it's literally

658
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: now every aspect and every moment of my life, you know,

659
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: Like when people go, oh, what was your last incident

660
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: of like gender euphoria, I'm like, oh, this morning when

661
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: I was drinking coffee in silence and just being able

662
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: to sit and have my coffee doing things in the

663
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: past that like I did enjoy but a part of

664
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 1: me wasn't there. So it could just be going to

665
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: meet some friends in the park, and I'm really able

666
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: to just be in the park with them. I'm not

667
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: thinking about, oh, well are they gonna did I eat?

668
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 2: Well?

669
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: You only ate this much time ago, and oh my god,

670
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,240
Speaker 1: I'm so uncomfortable and chucking down my shirt and looking

671
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: and just kind of wanting to get out, always like

672
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: always wanting to just this sense of always wanting to flee.

673
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 1: And now sometimes, of course there's moments where I'm like,

674
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 1: I'd really love to just be home reading a book

675
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: right now. I mean like, I'm not like, it's not

676
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: like I'm like Johnny's social all of a sudden, but

677
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 1: going from having like a very difficult time being social

678
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: and feeling connected or now getting to feel like immersed

679
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,879
Speaker 1: in life versus struggling to know how to live it.

680
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 2: Well, that definitely registers hearing, that definitely hits. Thank you

681
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: for explaining that. When you went on the book tour

682
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: and you obviously, as you just said, you wrote the book.

683
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 2: What's been what have been the responses that have really

684
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 2: warmed your heart or that have really connected to you

685
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 2: in a way that are going to stay with you

686
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 2: for a long long time, either on tour or I'm

687
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,720
Speaker 2: sure you've had so many people write to you because

688
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 2: of the book and write to your team and everyone else.

689
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 2: What are some of the what are some of those

690
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 2: that you could tell us now, especially now that the

691
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,320
Speaker 2: book's been out for a while, guessing it's only getting

692
00:40:58,320 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 2: more and more.

693
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the most moving.

694
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 1: And beautiful responses are people kind of expressing it all

695
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 1: ages how me sharing my story has helped them, you

696
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: know now feel less alone, helped them talk to their

697
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: parents in a new way, helped them feel carry less shame.

698
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 1: Write a letter from someone who was they might have

699
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: I might have been, you know, fifty, and they'd read

700
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: the book and then like, you know, finally I had decided,

701
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: yes I'm going on testosterone and just saying like how

702
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: much that decision had changed their life. And I fully

703
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: was like crying when I read this. I was just

704
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: so well thankful that they'd want to, you know, share

705
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 1: that with me. And also to know that anything you

706
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 1: could have done or expressed would help someone feel less alone,

707
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 1: because I know how alone you can feel, I know

708
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: how overwhelmed and burdened you can feel by this self

709
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: hate and discomfort that just is constantly running through your body,

710
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 1: and what it means when you do get those moments

711
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,839
Speaker 1: of clarity and feel connection. As I've said, I've had

712
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: that with books I've read or you know, friendships and

713
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: what community communities offered me.

714
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 3: So those are beautiful moments.

715
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:43,760
Speaker 1: And then even you know, a friend of mine whose

716
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: trans mask and they their mom read the book and

717
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,479
Speaker 1: like a couple days and they said, I'm now having

718
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,760
Speaker 1: conversations with my mom that I didn't think were possible before.

719
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: It's I mean, at the end of the day, like

720
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 1: that's the point. I mean, that's really the point. It's like,

721
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: why else am I like spilling my guts in this thing?

722
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 1: Like sometimes I feel like, leading up to it coming out,

723
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, why'd you write about that?

724
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 2: You know?

725
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: And then when you have those moments that you know

726
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: it could be helping someone, it's just like to me,

727
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 1: that's the point.

728
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you encounter anyone that initially may have been,

729
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 2: you know, in their own way, initially critical or judgmental,

730
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 2: and then was able to kind of even just sit

731
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,479
Speaker 2: with you and hear from you, or and was able

732
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 2: to comprehend and understand just even a glimpse into the journey.

733
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 2: Did you come across any of that or hear about

734
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 2: any of those types of stories from anyone?

735
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I suppose people, I don't know if you know,

736
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 1: the individual went on like some huge art change of

737
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: things that it enabled them to think about and understand

738
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: and the experience a bit more. And actually in so

739
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 1: many ways that I think so special is how much

740
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: they also related to it despite having a very different experience,

741
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: you know, not being trans, and how did they relate

742
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: to what was they related it being you know, ciste

743
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: and gay and so obviously there's going to be like

744
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 1: overlap there, but had maybe they did have their certain

745
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: feelings about trans people or thoughts and the book really

746
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 1: did help, you know, their mind changed too, it agree.

747
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that. I mean, there's so many books

748
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 2: that you mentioned today that I want to read and

749
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 2: I know that you know, our community is hopefully going

750
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 2: to read Pageboy as well after this. But it's fascinating

751
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 2: to me just how how we all became trained in

752
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 2: different ways, conditioned in different ways to become closed to

753
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 2: experiences that you would hope we would have become more

754
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 2: curious to learn about and more open to learn about.

755
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,320
Speaker 2: And it's it's fascinating to me as a SIS society

756
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 2: howp we've become more and more close minded about so

757
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 2: many issues as opposed to being broad minded when it

758
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,879
Speaker 2: obviously makes sense. To be open minded about things makes

759
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 2: us a healthier, happier, more growth focused human. And for me,

760
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 2: I've always talked about how I think the best thing

761
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 2: that happened to me is I met people who were

762
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 2: very different to society when I was young. And when

763
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,280
Speaker 2: I said different, I mean for me, it was meeting

764
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 2: spiritual monks like that was my personal journey and so

765
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 2: meeting a monk at eighteen years old was so random

766
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 2: to my life's journey that it was great because it

767
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 2: presented a whole new way of thinking, an ideology that

768
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 2: I would never have ever thought could even be possible,

769
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 2: and it became such a big part of my life.

770
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 2: And I just I'm hoping that you know, stories like

771
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:56,399
Speaker 2: yours and stories like this will continue to help people

772
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 2: open up their minds to recognize how much there is

773
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 2: in common that we have and how much much there

774
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 2: is in common experience that we can learn from and

775
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 2: be guided by. Even if it's not the same experience.

776
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 2: Would that be an accurate mission statement a part of

777
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 2: the mission statement?

778
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: Absolutely ideally, Yeah. And I mean I, you know, like

779
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,359
Speaker 1: memoir in particulars I read a lot of and love

780
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: and so much of it are you know, stories that

781
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: are very different than mine, and people with different experiences

782
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,760
Speaker 1: and identity and what have you that have deeply touched

783
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: me and moved me and opened my mind and allowed

784
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: me to grow and expand. And we're all learning all

785
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: the time, you know, and it's it's beautiful to have

786
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,240
Speaker 1: the space or you know, to help create the space

787
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 1: on any level that allows people to grow and expand

788
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: in that way.

789
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 2: How's your perspective on love changed? And the area of your.

790
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 1: Life definitely very different now than I was in before.

791
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: I was very much which I think is maybe relatively

792
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 1: evident in the book, a bit of a serial monogenist

793
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: and just like really did find it so hard to

794
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 1: exist and function that I I do think I needed

795
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 1: someone like I And the moment there was like attraction

796
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 1: or a feeling. It's just sort of like, oh, you know,

797
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: like and like hold on tight, you know, and staying

798
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,359
Speaker 1: in situations that I'm sure a lot of people. Again,

799
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: this is something that so many people would relate to

800
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 1: in different ways, situations that weren't the wisest, that probably

801
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: weren't great for either party involved, and that came from

802
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,959
Speaker 1: really just not knowing how to exist by myself and

803
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: the feeling of love right ooh, that's like like we escape.

804
00:47:55,160 --> 00:48:00,080
Speaker 1: It's pardon the pun, but transcendent, you know, it's and

805
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 1: that feeling would give me a spark of life. It

806
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: would give me a moment of I can breathe. Ultimately,

807
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: though that's not the reason why I think we should

808
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 1: be with someone, and it's tad selfish.

809
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 3: On my part.

810
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: And now I am so blown away by the fact

811
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: that I can be alone like that is such an

812
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: exhilarating sensation, an element of the feeling away I never

813
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 1: thought was possible that Right now, I'm very much enjoying

814
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 1: being you know, connecting with people, having some fun, but

815
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: just sort of being on my own right now, and

816
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 1: that is very new for me, very new for me.

817
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 1: And I want love in a relationship to be you know,

818
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:58,439
Speaker 1: I mean, our stuff's always going to follow us into

819
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: intimate relationships, I know it, you know, come from a

820
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,919
Speaker 1: solid and embodied foundation where I know, I'm going into

821
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 1: that because we're going to love each other and explore

822
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 1: life together and grow together, and not because I'm clinging

823
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: to something for dear life.

824
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 2: That sounds like it must be such a such a.

825
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:18,720
Speaker 3: So I'm single.

826
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 2: I love it. That's brilliant. I was about to say, like,

827
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 2: just how meaningful that must feel? Like, you know it

828
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 2: must be. It sounds like such a profound place that

829
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 2: you know, it's such a deep space to feel that

830
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 2: scentedness and stillness in being with oneself and that confidence

831
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 2: of just just being in oneself. But you're single, So

832
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 2: that's we're going to throw that out there. How do

833
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 2: you think the journey And of course you know the communities,

834
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 2: the transc community so well, so you would know how

835
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 2: how do you think the journey is different when you

836
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 2: are in the public eye versus when you're not, Like

837
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 2: there are the obvious differences, of course we've talked about

838
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 2: like the pressure from successive movies and things like that,

839
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 2: But are there any more nuanced to subtle things that

840
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 2: some of us could miss in plain sight because you're

841
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 2: not living that journey or you're not seeing.

842
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 3: It, don't know.

843
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 1: I mean, it's so funny because it's just like my

844
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:30,919
Speaker 1: strange experience in this life. I mean maybe in that

845
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 1: you're just going through this transition in front of a

846
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 1: lot of people and having people speculate or make comments

847
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,439
Speaker 1: or assumptions about your life and your experience that can

848
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,399
Speaker 1: often be incredibly hurtful and demeaning. And at the same time,

849
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: everything everything's like you know, relative, everyone's sort of having

850
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: that in their own individual orbit. And my position of

851
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: comes with such an enormous amount of privilege, like my

852
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 1: life does not reflect the lives of most trans people

853
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 1: who deal with you know, disproportionate amount of unemployment, poverty, incarceration, violence,

854
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:24,240
Speaker 1: et cetera, particularly black trans people. So I'd be lying

855
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 1: if I said there weren't certain elements of this sort

856
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: of unusual experience that don't have its sort of challenges

857
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: or difficult moments. And at the same time, what I

858
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 1: always go back to is the degree in which my

859
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 1: privilege and resources help and also protect me. You know,

860
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 1: if I'm getting threats, I have the money to hire security,

861
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 1: I could get you know, pay for surgery to get

862
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 1: it quickly. You know, all of these aspects that name change,

863
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 1: you know, think about that all those documents, you're you know,

864
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 1: you're passwords, like all of these things that for those

865
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 1: that you know don't have the certain privileges and resources

866
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 1: I have, is incredibly difficult and makes life incredibly difficult.

867
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm glad you raised that point, because yeah,

868
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, we have we have to also look

869
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 2: at it from that perspective of just again going back

870
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 2: to the reality of what these choices and decisions like

871
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:32,320
Speaker 2: actually look like in the real world, because similar and

872
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 2: I appreciate that view from you constantly of like looking

873
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 2: at it from well, this is what it actually looks like,

874
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 2: this is what's actually going on, this is this is

875
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:41,399
Speaker 2: what we may not see if we're only looking at

876
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 2: the you know, the And again that doesn't take away

877
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 2: from your journey as well, like that that shouldn't take

878
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,879
Speaker 2: away from the challenges and stresses and the realities of

879
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 2: what you're experiencing. But I wanted to pivot to certain

880
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 2: things because I feel like, I feel like the book

881
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 2: is just the beginning of so many more exciting, incredible

882
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 2: adventures of what you're going to do and achieve. And

883
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 2: I heard that you're a big history buff and I'm

884
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:09,919
Speaker 2: guessing you're doing a lot of reading there. I wonder

885
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 2: whether there's any has there been, and you talked about

886
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 2: even just I love what you've been saying that just

887
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 2: and you know, when I'm hearing someone speak and it

888
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 2: really the way you express this is really going to

889
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:28,359
Speaker 2: stay with me. This idea that the biggest win is

890
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 2: just you being able to do the simplest things in

891
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 2: a present way like that will stay with me so

892
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 2: much because it's something that we all take for granted

893
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 2: so much, like you know you just I know I

894
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 2: do like so it's a very easy thing to miss

895
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:47,240
Speaker 2: out on and some of us are not even present,

896
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 2: but even if we are present, we take that for granted.

897
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 2: And so the idea that you feel so much present

898
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 2: in just having coffee this morning, or like reading a book,

899
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,320
Speaker 2: or being with friends in the park or what you know,

900
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 2: all those examples you were giving, Yeah, I wanted to

901
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:03,720
Speaker 2: dive into what, seeing as you're such a big reader,

902
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 2: when did you become such a history buff and what

903
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 2: has been the latest historic discovery that has kind of

904
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 2: brought you joy?

905
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 3: I haven't been reading too much stuff about history.

906
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 2: Or anything else, any anything you're reading.

907
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 1: Oh, lately I've been reading Octavia Butler because I embarrassed

908
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 1: to say I hadn't read Octavia Butler before, so I

909
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 1: just read Wild Seed and Kindred. I guess obviously those

910
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 1: books have a fantastical sort of history, but obviously a

911
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 1: very intense history element to it, you know, particular, you know,

912
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 1: Wild Seed and Kindred a very brutal history.

913
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 3: I'm reading more novels lately.

914
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, obviously both of Octavia Butler's books are novels, but

915
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 1: also Our Wives under the Sea was tremendous. Brandon Taylor's

916
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 1: new novel I'm trying to called The Last Americans. It

917
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:01,840
Speaker 1: might be getting the name wrong, but his latest novel

918
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 1: was amazing, so less like history.

919
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 3: Specific, but it's all history.

920
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 1: But obviously there's historical elements and a lot of the

921
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: those different things, not really the Brandon Taylor one.

922
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the other ones. Yeah, no, no, And

923
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 2: and I think that that is the point where, like

924
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:25,880
Speaker 2: I think biographies and diaries and autobiographies are all have

925
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 2: historical elements to them. I mean, that's that's where they

926
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 2: come from. And one part that felt very journal like

927
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:35,759
Speaker 2: in your book was at the end of the book,

928
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 2: you described being at the show with Mark and having

929
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 2: a moment of self love that you wanted to hold

930
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 2: onto and you say, taking a deep breath, exhaling, exhaling

931
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 2: down to my toes. I wanted to hold onto the feeling,

932
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 2: to pocket the joy, the fleeting moments of self love.

933
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 2: And I thought that felt very diary like, like, it

934
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 2: felt very like journal thought is you know, very unique words.

935
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:01,320
Speaker 2: And I wanted to know, like, why did you choose

936
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 2: to end the book at sixteen years old? Like again

937
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 2: we talked about the nonlinear, but specifically to end on

938
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 2: that after going through this journey back and forth? What

939
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 2: was it? What was so? Yeah, why end on sixteen

940
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 2: years old?

941
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:17,399
Speaker 3: Yeah?

942
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 1: Well, I felt like sort of began the book at

943
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 1: this time that was also involved Mark, and was this

944
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: period of feeling more self love, feeling closer to myself,

945
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,839
Speaker 1: falling in love with my first girlfriend, Paula, and then

946
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 1: you know that leading up to a moment that was

947
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 1: a big pivot in my life, and then to sort

948
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 1: of you know, bookend that with this moment sixteen Peaches Concert,

949
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:59,839
Speaker 1: what would have been the queerest environment I'd probably been

950
00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 1: in at that point in my life and the just

951
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 1: palpable joy, the electricity of it, and I'll never forget

952
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: that night. I'll never forget walking home with Mark and

953
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 1: what that felt like, what that community felt like. And

954
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 1: to end on that note there at sixteen, having that

955
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 1: atmosphere to go to, having that incredible performer who's inspired

956
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 1: me since I was a teenager, it felt like a

957
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:37,360
Speaker 1: special moment to end on.

958
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely felt it, and it's wonderful to have

959
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 2: that experience of euphoria through your experience in that moment.

960
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 2: And you know, Elliott, I just want to say how

961
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 2: honestly I was so excited to meet you today and

962
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 2: do this interview. And I love it when this happens,

963
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 2: when you get an experience that you didn't know you

964
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 2: were going to get. And that's how I feel with

965
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 2: you today, where you can always intellectualize what you think

966
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 2: you're going to learn or what you think you're going

967
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 2: to gain, and I had all those ideas, which I

968
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 2: definitely have learned so much. It's not that I haven't learned,

969
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:17,920
Speaker 2: but it's I've kind of been moved more internally. And

970
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:21,439
Speaker 2: I feel that that's sometimes even more valuable because it's

971
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 2: something that I can express from a deep place within myself.

972
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 2: And I feel like I've been moved by you sharing

973
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 2: your experience so thoughtfully and intimately in your book, but

974
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:35,440
Speaker 2: also even getting the opportunity to sit with you today.

975
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 2: And I only have a couple more questions for you.

976
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 2: We asked at the end of every interview to a

977
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 2: final five, which is a fast five in the sense

978
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 2: that they have to be answered in one word to

979
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 2: one sentence maximum. But I always ruin it because I'm

980
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:51,480
Speaker 2: so intrigued by all my guests. But I'll try so,

981
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 2: Elliott Paige, these are your final five. The first question

982
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 2: is what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

983
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 2: And it can be about any topic you choose it

984
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 2: to be about.

985
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 3: You know what.

986
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 1: I don't know why this is popping into my brain,

987
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: but there's a memory popping in my brain, so I'm like,

988
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 1: why not go with this. And the time in that

989
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 1: period when everyone sort of go to was your dream's

990
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,439
Speaker 1: coming true, Your dream's coming true, Your dream's coming true,

991
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 1: Kate Winslet said to me. And I was still am

992
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 1: obsessed with Kate Winslet love one of just my favorite

993
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: actors of all time, and I was too shy to

994
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 1: go up to her at this party or something. It

995
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 1: would have been the first time that she just came

996
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 1: up to me and was like, obviously, it took me

997
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 1: a long time to listen to the advice properly, but

998
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 1: she was just like, don't let them change you, like,

999
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 1: don't like you hold on to yourself. Essentially, don't let

1000
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: this and I'll never forget it. Who was I think

1001
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 1: the only person in who that whole period basically said

1002
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 1: anything like that, you know from that, and I've always

1003
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 1: remembered it and always meantal art to me.

1004
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 2: I think that's a great answer, And yeah, what a

1005
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,600
Speaker 2: beautiful stament. Don't let them change you, hold on to yourself.

1006
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 2: That's that's beautiful. Okay, great. Second question, what is the

1007
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 2: worst advice you've ever heard or received? Sure this is.

1008
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 5: Easier, Yeah, yeah, don't be Yeah, don't tell people you're

1009
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 5: queer and disguise yourself too to trick them.

1010
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, even those words disguise yourself to trick them and

1011
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 2: say it's it's hard to live in a disguise and as.

1012
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: A trick, which is just so silly too, as if like,

1013
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 1: so you're telling me lesbians don't wear dress, like what

1014
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 1: are we like just the binary asthma. It's just ridiculous.

1015
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, what are we trying to so boring? Question number three,

1016
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 2: what is something you used to value that you no

1017
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 2: longer value?

1018
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 1: I think like a certain idea what we envision success

1019
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 1: to be. You know, that's not really that important to

1020
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:01,960
Speaker 1: me anymore.

1021
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was clear from what you said earlier,

1022
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 2: the idea that you were willing to let it all go,

1023
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 2: if you were allowed to be who you are and

1024
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 2: be totally Yeah, it's like not what success means to me.

1025
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 2: Question number four, what is something that you're currently trying

1026
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 2: to unlearn?

1027
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 1: I guess still, you know, whatever shame still lingers that

1028
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: was projected onto me by those around me, society obviously

1029
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:35,000
Speaker 1: in a so much better place, Like so much of

1030
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:37,600
Speaker 1: it's probably unconscious, but as if it's not, you know,

1031
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:44,520
Speaker 1: still lingering and still disconnecting from those thoughts or feelings

1032
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 1: that make you feel small.

1033
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:50,760
Speaker 2: And fifth and final question. We asked this to every

1034
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 2: guest who's ever been on the show, and I'm really

1035
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:56,800
Speaker 2: intrigued to hear your answer. If you could create one

1036
01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 2: law that everyone in the world had to follow, what

1037
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 2: would it be? Kind you can take your.

1038
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 1: Time that everybody had to follow. Don't be a bully.

1039
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:13,000
Speaker 2: That's a good one.

1040
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 3: Bullying is outlined.

1041
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, any terrible bully. Yeah, I think that's a good law. Yeah,

1042
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 2: there's a rule. It needs to become a law. Yeah,

1043
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 2: I love it, Elliott. Page Everyone in the book is

1044
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 2: called a page boy a memoir. If you haven't read

1045
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 2: it already, highly recommend it. Read it for your own education,

1046
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 2: share it with friends, make your next book club pick

1047
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:38,520
Speaker 2: to be able to discuss it, dissect it, support the

1048
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 2: communities around you, support your friends who are on their journey.

1049
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:45,280
Speaker 2: And I'd love you to share with me and Elliott

1050
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:48,400
Speaker 2: the thoughts, the reflections, the insights that stayed with you.

1051
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 2: There were so many things that I felt and experienced

1052
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:53,480
Speaker 2: through this conversation that are definitely going to stay with me.

1053
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 2: And i'd love to see. I know that you're phenomenal

1054
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 2: at doing this, You're phenomena that doing edits and on

1055
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 2: TikTok and Instagram and x and I'd love to see

1056
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:08,720
Speaker 2: what are those moments in this interview and conversation that

1057
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 2: are going to stay with you and that you're going

1058
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 2: to pass on to others. Elliott, thank you so much

1059
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 2: for your time, your energy, your presence today. Like I said,

1060
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 2: I will take this experience around and share it with

1061
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:23,040
Speaker 2: many people, because it's an experience that have really felt

1062
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 2: deeply through your words and through your presence today, and

1063
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:29,720
Speaker 2: so often when I'm sitting in this chair, the number

1064
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 2: one feeling I'm having is I wish the world could

1065
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 2: feel what I'm feeling right now, because so often I'm

1066
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 2: feeling if people could understand the pain, the hurt, the

1067
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 2: trauma that people like yourself are experiencing, and could experience

1068
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 2: your humanity in the way that I'm experiencing, then maybe

1069
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 2: we wouldn't treat each other that way. Then maybe we

1070
01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:58,800
Speaker 2: wouldn't speak to each other that way, that maybe we

1071
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 2: wouldn't impact each other in that negative way. I'm really

1072
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 2: thankful I got to spend this time with you, and

1073
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 2: I really hope that more and more people get to

1074
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:10,640
Speaker 2: experience you through your book and through your work so

1075
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 2: that they two can understand more about themselves and more

1076
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:16,760
Speaker 2: about you. So thank you, so.

1077
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 3: Much, thank you so much. Thank you really appreciate it.

1078
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 2: Thank you. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my

1079
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:27,600
Speaker 2: conversation with Megan Trainer on breaking generational trauma and how

1080
01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 2: to be confident from the inside out.

1081
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 4: My therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for

1082
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:34,720
Speaker 4: five minutes. It was already tough for me to love

1083
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:37,479
Speaker 4: my body, but after the C section scarf with all

1084
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 4: the stretch marks. Now I'm looking at myself like I've

1085
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 4: been hacked. But day three, when I did it, I

1086
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 4: was like, you know what, her thighs are cute