Speaker 1: Hi, Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: There's an article that seems to be written every few
Speaker 1: weeks now, and the latest is titled American women are
Speaker 1: giving up on marriage and was in Saturday's Wall Street Journal.
Speaker 1: I'm not criticizing the genre. I obviously talk about this
Speaker 1: topic maybe more than any other, and I appreciate that
Speaker 1: these pieces are sounding the alarm. Just kind of think
Speaker 1: they're not quite getting it right. Here's a quote from
Speaker 1: the article. I'm financially self sufficient enough to do these
Speaker 1: things by myself, said a woman they interviewed, a Boston
Speaker 1: based accountant. I'm willing to accept being single versus settling
Speaker 1: for someone who isn't the right fit. She sees her
Speaker 1: plans for an independent futures, making the best of a
Speaker 1: lousy situation. I don't want to sit here and say
Speaker 1: I'm one hundred percent happy, but I feel happier just
Speaker 1: accepting my reality. I'm mentally and emotionally a sense of peace.
Speaker 1: She's only twenty nine. She's twenty nine, and she's given
Speaker 1: up on finding her person. It's just depressing. But here's
Speaker 1: the thing. At twenty nine, I was in a six
Speaker 1: year relationship with someone who I did not marry. I
Speaker 1: was certain, I mean one thousand percent sure, that I
Speaker 1: didn't want to get married and I didn't want to
Speaker 1: have kids. I started dating my husband the following year
Speaker 1: when I was thirty, and we got married the year
Speaker 1: after that. It changes so quickly. Why does a twenty
Speaker 1: nine year old feel so despondent about her future? The
Speaker 1: problem is the dating culture. If you talk to anyone
Speaker 1: in it, well you feel extra grateful to not be
Speaker 1: in it. But they use this language that's just become ridiculous.
Speaker 1: Like I get what a situationship is, but giving it
Speaker 1: a name as opposed to just like someone you're hooking
Speaker 1: up with, makes it sound so much more important than
Speaker 1: it is. As listeners have heard me say on this
Speaker 1: show before, the problem is a decline in marriage, yes,
Speaker 1: but it's a decline in all relationships, including friendships. The
Speaker 1: top message that I get to this show is from
Speaker 1: parents writing in about helping their kid, sometimes a teen,
Speaker 1: sometimes a twenty something have more of a social life.
Speaker 1: Something has definitely shifted for the worse. Listen to this
Speaker 1: stat from the article the share of women age eighteen
Speaker 1: to forty who are single, That is neither married nor
Speaker 1: cohabitating with a partner was fifty one point four percent
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three, according to an analysis of census
Speaker 1: data by the Aspen Economic Strategy Group. That's up from
Speaker 1: forty one point eight percent in two thousand. I mean
Speaker 1: a ten point jump in twenty years or so. And
Speaker 1: that part about cohabitating is important. It's not just marriage
Speaker 1: that people aren't participating in. It's not this piece of paper,
Speaker 1: it's not the institution. It's everything. It's having relationships in general.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of reasons for it, and a
Speaker 1: lot of the articles and a lot of the research
Speaker 1: focuses on the financial more than anything else. Women are
Speaker 1: succeeding at previously unheard of levels. Men aren't, women want
Speaker 1: to marry up, etc. But is that what you're hearing
Speaker 1: from real people in your life who are trying to
Speaker 1: find someone. It's not at all what I'm hearing. I'm
Speaker 1: hearing that women can't find a man who will be faithful,
Speaker 1: and men say they can't find a woman who isn't
Speaker 1: in two material things. Women say men don't ask any
Speaker 1: questions about themselves on dates, so a woman will ask
Speaker 1: him about his family, about his job, about his hobbies,
Speaker 1: and he won't say a word asking her in return,
Speaker 1: He'll just answer her questions. Men say that women expect
Speaker 1: them to carry conversations and interactions. I get that those
Speaker 1: things are diametrically opposed. But I hear both of these perspectives,
Speaker 1: and these are all things that I've heard multiple times.
Speaker 1: We're missing the forest for the trees. It's not that
Speaker 1: women are focused on their jobs. It's that they are
Speaker 1: focused on their jobs because they can't find a man.
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear from listeners on this. Am I
Speaker 1: right is the whole She's just a career woman, a
Speaker 1: red herring. Let me know what you think. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: Coming up my interview with Abigail Schreier. But first, after
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Speaker 1: three two five, And Welcome back to the Carol Marcowitz
Speaker 1: Show on iHeartRadio. My guest today is Abigail Shreier. Abigail
Speaker 1: is contributing editor at The Free Press and the author
Speaker 1: of two best selling books, Irreversible Damage, The Transgender Creates,
Speaker 1: Seducing Our Daughters and Bad Therapy, Why the Kids Aren't
Speaker 1: Growing Up. Abigail is also one of my all time
Speaker 1: favorite people. Hi, Abigail, so nice to.
Speaker 2: Have you on. Oh it's great to be here, Carol,
Speaker 2: great to talk to you.
Speaker 1: So I feel like my question two has to be
Speaker 1: why do you do it? Why do you do this?
Speaker 1: Why do you write controversial books that are going to
Speaker 1: bring you, you know, nasty hate mail when and here's
Speaker 1: the thing, I think you are amazing, brilliant, but you're
Speaker 1: also a fantastic writer. Like a lot of people in
Speaker 1: our world are smart, but they don't have a beautiful
Speaker 1: writing style. You could be writing about anything, but you're
Speaker 1: choosing to go into the lines.
Speaker 2: And why, Well, thank you. That's very kind of you
Speaker 2: to say. I mean, I write about what interests me,
Speaker 2: and I write about things where I don't know the
Speaker 2: answer to the question. And you know, starting out with
Speaker 2: you know, irreversible damage. A reader wrote to me to
Speaker 2: tell me about this sudden spike and transgender identification among
Speaker 2: teenage girls, and no one was at the time willing
Speaker 2: to write about it, and I wanted to know if
Speaker 2: she was right, and so it sort of took me
Speaker 2: on an investigative journey. But it wasn't you know, provocation
Speaker 2: wasn't the point. It was really sort of getting getting
Speaker 2: to the answer. And I like that. I mean, I
Speaker 2: like getting to the answer. I always feel that I
Speaker 2: feel personally much safer in a world where I feel
Speaker 2: like I have full information and I know what's going on.
Speaker 2: And the truth is more than sort of public opprobrium.
Speaker 2: Things that worry me is really not knowing or being fooled,
Speaker 2: and those things actually do scare me. So you know,
Speaker 2: you sort of have to go with who you are
Speaker 2: in life, I think, especially in your profession, and you
Speaker 2: know this, the job sort of suits me, it just does.
Speaker 1: It does. But you're so not like you're very mild
Speaker 1: mannered and just a calm, rational person. I mean your
Speaker 1: books are very common rational too, But I think that
Speaker 1: the hate at you is not And I don't know,
Speaker 1: I worry about you in that way just because like
Speaker 1: it's not like you don't but you don't need it.
Speaker 1: You don't need that kind of response, and yet you're
Speaker 1: going out there and doing it anyway. I'm very proud
Speaker 1: of you, obviously.
Speaker 2: I think that that's, you know, the way to be.
Speaker 1: I don't know necessarily that I have that.
Speaker 2: So people get angry with me because I'm effective. That's
Speaker 2: what makes them so angry. So I think if I
Speaker 2: were more provocative or extreme or ungrounded or unfounded and
Speaker 2: things I had to say, I would get a lot
Speaker 2: less hate and I would be more ignored. And the
Speaker 2: reason that I get attention is because I, you know,
Speaker 2: try to craft things in a way that will be
Speaker 2: effective and well grounded and therefore hard to ignore. So
Speaker 2: you know that that makes some activists angry who are
Speaker 2: trying to, you know, keep the facts from getting to light.
Speaker 2: I really think that's sort of their problem. And I,
Speaker 2: you know, I leave the rest up to the public,
Speaker 2: but you know, I'm going to keep doing my job.
Speaker 1: What was your path here? How did you get your start? Oh?
Speaker 2: So that's a great question. So I, you know, always
Speaker 2: did journalism high school. I was a stringer for the
Speaker 2: Wall Street Washington Jewish Week and you know, through college
Speaker 2: and then I I was working at the Washington Monthly.
Speaker 2: And I got the advice from some of my editors.
Speaker 2: You know, journalists are so often diletants. They don't you know,
Speaker 2: you have to know about everything, but you never know
Speaker 2: anything deeply. You should really try to get a PhD
Speaker 2: or learn something deeply. And I thought, well, I wasn't
Speaker 2: sure I wanted to do a PhD. I did some
Speaker 2: graduate life. He was drastic. Yeah, it's drastic. But one
Speaker 2: thing they said that did scare me. It wasn't anything
Speaker 2: they said, actually, it was something they did. And that
Speaker 2: was that my editor, one of my editors. She was
Speaker 2: this beautiful, young, very talented editor, and I think she
Speaker 2: was about twenty five at the time, and she was
Speaker 2: going out to dinner with this sixty five year old
Speaker 2: man who was rich, just so he would buy her dinner,
Speaker 2: because the editors were so poor at the Washington Monthly
Speaker 2: that they would base do anything for a nice meal.
Speaker 2: And that scared me. That scared me more than anything
Speaker 2: she said. So after that I went to law school.
Speaker 2: I thought, this is journalism.
Speaker 1: By my own dinner, actually exactly.
Speaker 2: I thought journalism could be very bleak if that's what
Speaker 2: you have to do to get a meal. So so
Speaker 2: I went to law school, but I never really enjoyed
Speaker 2: the practice of law. And so when when my kids
Speaker 2: were born, I started writing these novels and they weren't
Speaker 2: going anywhere, and I thought, I have to get my
Speaker 2: novels out before I go back to journalism, because once
Speaker 2: people find out, you know, most people say my journalism,
Speaker 2: they'll never let me publish another novel. Right, But my
Speaker 2: novels were not successful. I never sold one. So I decided,
Speaker 2: you know what, I have so many thoughts, I'm just
Speaker 2: going to go back to journalism, and from there I
Speaker 2: just started writing for the local press and my career
Speaker 2: sort of took off.
Speaker 1: Would law have been the plan, B.
Speaker 2: I suppose. I mean, I like writing about law even now.
Speaker 2: It's it's certainly an advantage in journalism to be able
Speaker 2: to write accurately about law. It's it's something that trips
Speaker 2: up a lot of journalists. So you know, certainly, having
Speaker 2: that in my toolkit, as it were, as something I
Speaker 2: can write about, I have found very useful. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not scared by a statute in the
Speaker 2: way that I very reasonably some journalists would be, well,
Speaker 2: I mean understandably, I mean, and I also, you know,
Speaker 2: you know, because I went to y A law school,
Speaker 2: I have a number of professors I can call up
Speaker 2: if I'm not sure about something and get a really,
Speaker 2: really smart take. So so you know, I I like
Speaker 2: having you know, personally, I'm glad that I went to
Speaker 2: law school, but you know, the journalism just just really
Speaker 2: suits my personality best.
Speaker 1: You live in California, and I've had a lot of
Speaker 1: people on the show who have left California in the
Speaker 1: last five years. And you're saying you're you're you're you're
Speaker 1: waiting it out. How how is it going? How is
Speaker 1: how is it out there?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, obviously California is a disaster in so
Speaker 2: many ways, that's no secret. We're we're horribly governed all
Speaker 2: the way down from the you know, state level, uh
Speaker 2: through my local uh here in l A. I mean,
Speaker 2: the governance is a disaster. But I write about the culture,
Speaker 2: and there is really no better way to look at
Speaker 2: how the culture has gone drastically off course, how it
Speaker 2: has undermined families and children than to be in a
Speaker 2: in the state where a lot of that, those bad
Speaker 2: ideas and bad policies get started. So, you know, from
Speaker 2: that perspective, it really is a candy store for a journalist.
Speaker 2: And uh, for from the perspective of our family, we're
Speaker 2: in it. We happen to be in a very nice
Speaker 2: community so that you know, the kids are in a
Speaker 2: good school, we're happy with so uh. From that perspective,
Speaker 2: it's it's we're doing all right.
Speaker 1: So California gets to keep you for now.
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, we'll revisit right, Yeah, sounds good.
Speaker 1: What do you worry about?
Speaker 2: Oh, so there's there's so much to worry about. But
Speaker 2: I think the thing I worry about the most right
Speaker 2: now is why young people are not forming relationships, healthy relationships,
Speaker 2: sort of the retreat from the in person world and
Speaker 2: also the lack of meaningful romantic relationships that we're seeing
Speaker 2: young people less interested in having them. They're too young
Speaker 2: to know that they're giving up on the best things
Speaker 2: in life. And also they've been lied to a lot
Speaker 2: of them believe that no, I need to get my
Speaker 2: professions started first. I can't possibly date someone until I've
Speaker 2: pursued my career as a paralegal.
Speaker 1: And it's don't go pursuing that career, go ahead and
Speaker 1: find your spouse.
Speaker 2: Now, right. I mean, you know, for for any job,
Speaker 2: they will put off finding a spouse. And it really
Speaker 2: should be the reverse. You know, I'm not saying, you know,
Speaker 2: don't take your career seriously, but God willing, we have
Speaker 2: many decades, productive decades had but unfor you know, the
Speaker 2: way we're designed, we have a short time with biology
Speaker 2: and in which to have children and to marry, and
Speaker 2: that's the thing that we actually should be you know,
Speaker 2: putting at least as much energy into if not more,
Speaker 2: And unfortunately it's really reversed. Young people are putting all
Speaker 2: their energy into their careers and none into finding a spouse.
Speaker 2: And I do think that's a real problem.
Speaker 1: Do you think phones are related to it, that they're
Speaker 1: not living like real lives or they're they're just on
Speaker 1: the internet.
Speaker 2: Absolutely undeniably. But I also think that that the fearfulness
Speaker 2: of the generation, they're so full of worry and look
Speaker 2: in our personal relationships are the scariest and most risky
Speaker 2: things you'll ever get involved in, and they're also the
Speaker 2: most rewarding. But not knowing if someone's going to like
Speaker 2: you back, much less love you back, not knowing if
Speaker 2: you're going to get your heart broken. These are really
Speaker 2: scary things. And we've raised this generation to be the
Speaker 2: most fearful, and so unfortunately they're staying away from the
Speaker 2: ultimate rewards of a loving relationship.
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and be right back.
Speaker 1: On the Carol Marcowitch Show, I talk about this a
Speaker 1: lot on the show, about relationships and about all kinds
Speaker 1: of connections between people. Family, friendships, friendships are way down.
Speaker 1: It's not just they're not just not making romantic connections,
Speaker 1: they're not even making friends anymore. And I get emails
Speaker 1: all the time from people saying like, how can I
Speaker 1: help my teenager or how can I help my twenty
Speaker 1: something make friends. It's becomes so like people see it
Speaker 1: as out of reach to connect with other people, and
Speaker 1: it's scary.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you had a great column on that. I should
Speaker 2: have mentioned that. It was a terrific column. Everyone should
Speaker 2: go back and read it if they missed it. On
Speaker 2: the decline of friendship. It was something that I wasn't
Speaker 2: aware of until I saw your column. And it's exactly
Speaker 2: what you just said is exactly right. I mean, we
Speaker 2: look back on our lives. Friendships and romantic relationships. These
Speaker 2: are you know, in your spouse, and then these are
Speaker 2: at the top of what gives you meaning and satisfaction
Speaker 2: in life. And friendships are amazing things because you start
Speaker 2: out you have these conflicts, right, you know, you get
Speaker 2: very close to someone, then you fall out of touch,
Speaker 2: or maybe you get a share with them or whatever happens.
Speaker 2: But this is the amazing thing. Years go by, and
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, it has this amazing cementing effect of
Speaker 2: making your friendship so meaningful and so strong, and it
Speaker 2: doesn't even matter how mad you got at her over
Speaker 2: this or that. In the sixth grade, you look back
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, you've known her for thirty years.
Speaker 2: And I do very much worry that kids are missing
Speaker 2: out on those close friendships.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely like it's something that I think about
Speaker 1: a lot. That you know, I'm on my phone a lot.
Speaker 2: I can't.
Speaker 1: I can't say that I'm not guilty of the same thing.
Speaker 1: Every every moment of awkwardness, I immediately reached my phone
Speaker 1: just like, WHOA, this feels much more comfortable. I could
Speaker 1: just scroll and not focus on whatever is happening here.
Speaker 1: How do you kind of direct your kids toward those connections? Right?
Speaker 2: So, first of all, let me just acknowledge that it's
Speaker 2: near impossible to manage the phones and the computers. It's
Speaker 2: so hard, and the schools have made it harder than
Speaker 2: any I think, any institution. You try to keep these
Speaker 2: things away from your kids, and then every teacher assigns
Speaker 2: homework through some school some computer programs. So let me
Speaker 2: just start by saying, I'm, you know, not perfect by
Speaker 2: any means. How do I direct my kids to in
Speaker 2: person relationships? I do send them to a school with
Speaker 2: a no phone policy, which has been really wonderful, And
Speaker 2: you know, my sons who are in high school. They
Speaker 2: have what's known as kosher phones. You can actually buy
Speaker 2: these things and they are Internet blocked. It's great, that
Speaker 2: doesn't It's been wonderful for us. They have you know,
Speaker 2: various apps like WhatsApp for communicating with teams or you know,
Speaker 2: chatting apps, but when like Gmail, so they can use
Speaker 2: their see their schedules and whatnot. But it's not the
Speaker 2: open Internet, Okay, so that's somewhat better. But truthfully, and
Speaker 2: this goes to another question that I think, as you
Speaker 2: let me know is on your mind, is sort of
Speaker 2: what advice would I give? And that is that let's
Speaker 2: just go.
Speaker 1: Right to it. What advice would you give your sixteen
Speaker 1: year old self?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, what advice would I give my sixteen
Speaker 2: year old self will be a little different, but I'll
Speaker 2: tell you what advice I would give in general on
Speaker 2: this issue of improving life, improving your life honestly, and
Speaker 2: I hate to say it, and people are going to
Speaker 2: really upset that I said this, or maybe tune out,
Speaker 2: but honestly, the easiest, quickest, most assured way to do
Speaker 2: this is to join a religious community, join a church,
Speaker 2: join a synagogue. There is no quicker way to get
Speaker 2: actual real community, that is in person, that is meaningful,
Speaker 2: that is full of connections, And yes, it comes with
Speaker 2: plenty of annoyance too, of course, But I actually think
Speaker 2: that that is the most direct way to sort of
Speaker 2: immediately improve your life.
Speaker 1: I love it. That's usually the last question, but that's okay,
Speaker 1: that's okay, we can starry.
Speaker 2: What advice would I give to my sixteen year old self.
Speaker 2: You know, I spent a lot of years. I think
Speaker 2: this may resonate with with a lot of women. So
Speaker 2: I spent a lot of years thinking my personality was
Speaker 2: just wrong. So by which I mean, you hear from
Speaker 2: a lot of other girls you can't say that, my god.
Speaker 2: You know that seems to be a theme with girl
Speaker 2: groups of girls, and you spend a lot of of
Speaker 2: time sort of, especially if you're like me or you
Speaker 2: know you, I would imagine you sort of if you're
Speaker 2: a straightforward person who just sort of calls things like
Speaker 2: you see them, you spend a lot of time with
Speaker 2: other girls being told that you're mean, you're saying all
Speaker 2: the wrong things, and you don't share what you said.
Speaker 2: And if I could go back, what I would would
Speaker 2: would do is sort of tell myself. You know, there's
Speaker 2: going to be a place for someone with your personality.
Speaker 2: It's not all bad. It may be hard to maintain
Speaker 2: large groups of friends of girlfriends because they want you
Speaker 2: to flatter them, and the ticket for large groups of
Speaker 2: girlfriends tends to be small lies and flattery, neither of
Speaker 2: which I'm terribly good at. But it turns out there's
Speaker 2: you know, there's really a place for you, no matter
Speaker 2: your personality. And I'm not talking about sociopathy or anything
Speaker 2: like that, right, but personality and in journalism, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm I'm I'm not running against you know, I'm going
Speaker 2: with the current when it comes to my personality when
Speaker 2: I tell the truth, because that's something that's always been
Speaker 2: very easy for me. It's covering up the truth or
Speaker 2: taking care of everyone's feelings that's always been harder. So
Speaker 2: I sort of if I could go back, I wish
Speaker 2: I would have known that, actually what was so difficult
Speaker 2: in some situations that required niceties and flattery and you know,
Speaker 2: white lies, it would actually be to my advantage in
Speaker 2: a career in journalism.
Speaker 1: Did you always have primarily male friends or yes, yes,
Speaker 1: same same, Yeah. Do you know how that is so
Speaker 1: not popular now like that is. When I say that
Speaker 1: to my fifteen year old daughter, she's like, that's you know,
Speaker 1: they call girls like that, like the pick me girl
Speaker 1: who like tries to cater to boys and like no,
Speaker 1: boys were just they were funny and trying to be
Speaker 1: funny all the time. And that's what I was looking
Speaker 1: for totally.
Speaker 2: And I was also I was always close to my
Speaker 2: father and maybe yeah, and I don't know if it's
Speaker 2: because I was close to him or we were close
Speaker 2: because we had such similar personalities. But I always got
Speaker 2: along with men and boys much better. And you know,
Speaker 2: my husband says, he always jokes that I'm the only
Speaker 2: woman who wants to be told when she looks fat,
Speaker 2: because I'll I'll say to him, do I look fat
Speaker 2: in this? And I want to know before I leave
Speaker 2: the house. I don't want to be lied to. You
Speaker 2: definitely don't want to be Apparently that's a big no
Speaker 2: no with most women. They want to be lied to.
Speaker 1: And why would you ask unless you want to know
Speaker 1: the honest opinion, what am I doing here?
Speaker 2: Exactly? If I don't look good, I want to change
Speaker 2: immediately before I leave the house. So you know, that
Speaker 2: was always very hard with me with groups of girlfriends.
Speaker 2: I always had a female best friend, but the rest
Speaker 2: I just couldn't maintain the group. I just could never,
Speaker 2: you know, keep the whole group happy and and and
Speaker 2: I didn't know that that those same sort of personality
Speaker 2: quirks would would make some areas of my life much
Speaker 2: much easier.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like your books change the conversation and
Speaker 1: enough to make those issues that you've written about better?
Speaker 1: Like I think that you writing about the trans contagion
Speaker 1: blew it all up to such an extent that I
Speaker 1: think that. I mean, maybe I just live in Florida now,
Speaker 1: but I'm seeing a change, a shift in the way
Speaker 1: that this is all going down. I don't see as
Speaker 1: many And again, this might just be a New York
Speaker 1: to Florida move. Maybe they're still all trendsing in New York,
Speaker 1: but it seems like fewer girls are going down that path.
Speaker 1: And similarly, your book about you know, over therapy for kids,
Speaker 1: I feel like the conversation around that has changed and
Speaker 1: that there's an improvement. Do you feel any of that.
Speaker 2: I do think so, and I'm very happy about that.
Speaker 2: I mean the advantage of writing a book is here's
Speaker 2: what I try to do. I don't write a book
Speaker 2: that's just my opinions or my take. There's nothing wrong
Speaker 2: with that, but that's not what I do. I try
Speaker 2: to create a document that people can take that's full
Speaker 2: of information and that can really add to the discourse.
Speaker 2: So in Bad Therapy, there were legislators who bought the
Speaker 2: book who went argued in court against. You know, people
Speaker 2: would argue in court against or in favor of puberty
Speaker 2: blocker bands or whatnot, and they would have all the
Speaker 2: evidence in my book, they would say, they would cite
Speaker 2: it in their briefs, And I tried to do the
Speaker 2: same for Bad Therapy. I wanted parents who went into
Speaker 2: school boards and were trying, who sensed in their guts
Speaker 2: there was something wrong with social emotional learning to be
Speaker 2: able to say here, chapter whatever chapter it was, I
Speaker 2: think it was chapter nine, but or chapter six, and
Speaker 2: they would say, here, it's all in this book. And
Speaker 2: that's what I try to do. I try to be
Speaker 2: a resource in that way. The nice thing about a
Speaker 2: book is that you know it's always there, so you
Speaker 2: know it's you know, an episode will get more views,
Speaker 2: but then people rarely go back and listen to or
Speaker 2: read why old episodes. The advantage, of course of the
Speaker 2: episodes is you know, unfortunately reading is really declining. So
Speaker 2: I think I think sort of the podcast world and
Speaker 2: the book world work really well together because you sort
Speaker 2: of need both to reach people.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, So do you when people do cite your work,
Speaker 1: do they I mean, do you feel like you've gotten
Speaker 1: the credit that you deserve for this? I feel like
Speaker 1: maybe not enough. That's fair, and I think Abigail Schreier
Speaker 1: deserves more.
Speaker 2: Guys, thank you, you know, I'm I'm I'm happy. I
Speaker 2: think that, you know, I'm not. I think if I
Speaker 2: were more strategic about my career in certain ways, I
Speaker 2: would have stayed on each topic longer and kept promoting
Speaker 2: it and promoting it and promoting it. So within the
Speaker 2: year after Irreversible Damage was out, I was really onto
Speaker 2: new topics and new investigations because just I'm just interested
Speaker 2: in what the next is and I'm not someone who
Speaker 2: has I'm not an activist. I don't have a burning
Speaker 2: passion about one issue, and so you know, as a journalist,
Speaker 2: I'm always looking at sort of what's ahead and what
Speaker 2: the next issue is. I don't know if that's the
Speaker 2: best always the best move for my career. It might
Speaker 2: be to make sure that I'm the one person everyone
Speaker 2: constantly goes to for this one issue. But for me,
Speaker 2: I like being able to move on to the next
Speaker 2: topic and reveal something else if I can.
Speaker 1: I love it. She is Abigail Schreier. Get her books,
Speaker 1: read her anywhere you can. You're so fantastic. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for coming on. I've loved this conversation.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Carol, You're the best.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Marco
Speaker 1: Which show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.