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Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ook F Daily with

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Speaker 1: Me your Girl, Danielle Moody recording from the Home Bunker, Folks.

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Speaker 1: The longer that I am in the world of politics,

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Speaker 1: the longer I realize that everything is about shifting perspective

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Speaker 1: and the understanding that everything changes. Octavier Butler wrote imparable

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Speaker 1: of the sewer. Everything that you changes changes you, Everything

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Speaker 1: that you touch changes you. The only constant that we

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Speaker 1: have is change. And yet those that are in power,

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Speaker 1: those that have been elected as our representatives, or those

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Speaker 1: unelected bodies like the Supreme Court, refuse to recognize the

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Speaker 1: present and reconcile that with policies from the past. We

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Speaker 1: just saw this week that the state of Arizona passed

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Speaker 1: legislation from the eighteen hundreds to ban abortion. They're referring

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Speaker 1: to a law that was in existence before women had

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Speaker 1: the right to vote and before Arizona was even a

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Speaker 1: state when Lincoln was president. How do you look at

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Speaker 1: laws from the eighteen hundreds and think that they will

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Speaker 1: work in the twenty first century. What I realize more

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Speaker 1: and more is that those that are in power are

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Speaker 1: so stuck and stagnant without imagination and the ability to

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Speaker 1: reconcile with the reality of our current present times. What

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Speaker 1: do I mean by that? I mean that you're looking

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Speaker 1: at gun legislation, for instance, through the lens of a

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Speaker 1: time and space in this country when AR fifteen's machine guns, bazookas,

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Speaker 1: magazine clips didn't exist, where we didn't have police departments,

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Speaker 1: where people lived miles in miles apart from one another.

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Speaker 1: When those gun laws were created, America didn't have a

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Speaker 1: population of three hundred and thirty million people. We didn't

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Speaker 1: live inside of a country at that time when there

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Speaker 1: were more guns than there are people. So how does

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Speaker 1: it make sense then that we continue to use the

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Speaker 1: same lens from centuries ago on today? We use the

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Speaker 1: racist lens right of the twentieth century and prior to

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Speaker 1: dictate our future because we refuse to recognize that America

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Speaker 1: is not a white Christian nation. It was founded by

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Speaker 1: puritan zelots and founded I use that in quotation marks.

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Speaker 1: It was ransacked, pillaged by right wing zelots that didn't

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Speaker 1: want to pay taxes because they wanted the freedom to oppress.

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Speaker 1: That's the true story about the founding of America, right,

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Speaker 1: And so I just realized that when you don't have

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Speaker 1: the ability to change the systems in world around you.

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Speaker 1: The best thing that you can do is begin to

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Speaker 1: change yourself, to begin to open up the aperture to

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Speaker 1: see things in a different way through the lens of today,

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Speaker 1: and elect people who do the same. Because this stance

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Speaker 1: of make America great again lacks the imagination, the innovation,

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Speaker 1: and commitment that is actually going to continue to make

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Speaker 1: America one of the major powers in the world. We

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Speaker 1: are at a critical tipping point in so many ways,

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Speaker 1: and if we don't begin to shift our perspective and

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Speaker 1: ask real questions about what does freedom look like, what

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Speaker 1: does it taste like, what does it smell like? When

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Speaker 1: we talk about gun reform, what do we mean, what

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Speaker 1: kind of society, what type of country, what type of

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Speaker 1: world do we want to live in? Let's get specific.

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Speaker 1: So in my conversation today with our dear friend after

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Metzel, we get into the ways in which his

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Speaker 1: book What We've Become is about recognizing that the path

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Speaker 1: that gun reform activists have been on is not the

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Speaker 1: right one, and it is okay to stop, reflect and

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Speaker 1: pivot because staying the course when the course ain't right

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Speaker 1: is just fucking dumb. And at this point dangerous. So

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Speaker 1: the question is how do we shift perspective in order

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Speaker 1: to create the reality that we all want. That conversation

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Speaker 1: is coming up next with our friend, doctor Jonathan in Metzel. Folks,

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Speaker 1: you know that whenever I have the opportunity to sit

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Speaker 1: down with our friend, our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel,

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Speaker 1: I am always pleased because each week we get into

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Speaker 1: conversations about, you know, everything that is happening, what we

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Speaker 1: are feeling, and trying to bring you some clarity in

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Speaker 1: the crazy, in the chaos. So, Jonathan, how are you today?

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Speaker 1: This week?

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Speaker 2: I'm hanging in there. I got a few bookstops left.

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Speaker 2: I'm on my way to Seattle tomorrow morning. I leave

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Speaker 2: at five in the morning to give a talk tomorrow

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Speaker 2: night at town Hall Books in Seattle, which is going

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Speaker 2: to be really cool. A really cool journalist is interviewing

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Speaker 2: me in Seattle on Wednesday night, which will be I

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Speaker 2: think the night people may be here. I can't remember

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Speaker 2: when they hear this, but but that, And then I'm

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Speaker 2: going to Louisville on Monday to talk about race and

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Speaker 2: race and health in America, which I think will be cool.

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Speaker 2: Then just a couple more stops it's been. It's been

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Speaker 2: an amazing, amazing experience. Great to talk to people across

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Speaker 2: the country. I've you know, it's been. It's been interesting

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Speaker 2: to be on a book tour at this time of

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Speaker 2: the world. So we'll see, but I think, I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, I need a little bit of a vacation.

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Speaker 1: Also, what are some of the highlights been for you

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Speaker 1: as you wind down?

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Speaker 3: I say a couple of things.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the highlight for sure was a green Light

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Speaker 2: bookstore in Brooklyn, New York, where you and I had

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Speaker 2: incredible conversation that was amazing. And a couple of weeks

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Speaker 2: ago I was in La we did this event, a

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Speaker 2: huge event at the Getty with a bunch of people

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Speaker 2: I was a part of and so I got to

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Speaker 2: meet like Carrie Washington and Michelle Norris and Camo Bell

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Speaker 2: and all these people. So it's kind of interesting, like

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Speaker 2: you pick your topic where that topic takes you in

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Speaker 2: a particular way. So the cool part has been just

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Speaker 2: every conversation has been really urgent. But you know, what

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Speaker 2: I've been thinking about a lot is something that you

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Speaker 2: said that I think, I think really stuck with me,

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Speaker 2: which is when we were in the back room at

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Speaker 2: green Light Books, and you said, because I said, this

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Speaker 2: was a hard book to write, and it's a hard

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Speaker 2: book to it's a hard book to message.

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Speaker 3: I still feel that way.

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Speaker 2: I did the Pete Dominico or whatever podcast yesterday and

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Speaker 2: he's like, tell me the book in a sentence, and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, let's talk for an hour, because it's hard

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Speaker 2: to have a talking point about a book that's about

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Speaker 2: guns and race and a critique of liberalism and kind

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Speaker 2: of how we got here and stuff. So that part

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Speaker 2: has been really it continues to be hard. And I

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Speaker 2: remember we were in the back room, remember at that bookstore,

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Speaker 2: and you said, this is a book that people are

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Speaker 2: going to understand ten years from now. And it still

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Speaker 2: kind of feels that way, Like I'm still it's so interesting.

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Speaker 2: The book's been out now for a couple of months

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Speaker 2: and I'm still like either defending the thesis or like

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Speaker 2: that just weird things have happened with the with the

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Speaker 2: message itself, that predictable stuff, was a lot of pushback

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Speaker 2: from liberal gun control, like my colleagues in the liberal

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Speaker 2: world who didn't want to understand. What I still hold

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Speaker 2: is the argument, which is we have to understand how

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Speaker 2: we got here to understand like why we're in a

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Speaker 2: particular predicament. But like here, here's my question for you.

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Speaker 2: This is a kind of a long winded question. Like

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Speaker 2: here's an example of one kind of reception, which is,

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Speaker 2: there's a gun blog that this guy kind of defines.

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Speaker 2: You know, here's what the books, here's all the gun books,

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Speaker 2: and here's what they're about. And he had like point

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Speaker 2: by point on my book, and I was, you know,

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Speaker 2: any publicity is good publicity. I was glad he read it.

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Speaker 2: It was thoughtful that somebody was out there talking about it.

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Speaker 2: But the point was, like on page ten, he uses

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Speaker 2: the wrong term for a gun for a bullet, which

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Speaker 2: is we don't say clips, we say you know, loads

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Speaker 2: or something like that. And then on page twenty he

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Speaker 2: said AR fifteen and he means XM fifteen, like really

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Speaker 2: paying attention to the terminology of you know, his specialty,

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Speaker 2: which is guns. And so I understand people read for

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Speaker 2: like kind of their own expertise. They want to make

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Speaker 2: sure you got their thing right. But there was nothing

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Speaker 2: in the entire critique about the fact that the book

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Speaker 2: is actually about, Like race was not mentioned once in

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Speaker 2: the entire critique, And so I understand, like you write

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Speaker 2: a book, you want to get it right. But it's

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Speaker 2: weird when you have a book out there. Everybody sees

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Speaker 2: like their one little part and they want to make

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Speaker 2: sure you get their thing. But you kind of want

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Speaker 2: to say, like, hey, how about the bigger argument. How

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Speaker 2: about the bigger argument of the entire book, which is

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Speaker 2: not about that. So part of the question is, you know,

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Speaker 2: that's what you do when you write a book, but

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Speaker 2: it's interesting that everybody sees their one little part and

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Speaker 2: not the bigger part, and that maybe that's a problem

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Speaker 2: of me as the author.

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Speaker 1: But I'm like, no, Jonathan, But isn't that the world, Like,

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Speaker 1: isn't that the struggle that we find ourselves in, which

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Speaker 1: is that everyone is concentrated on their one piece instead

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Speaker 1: of the entire pitch. So take it and look at

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Speaker 1: it this way. Right, So we're having conversations and you know,

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Speaker 1: we talk about democracy, we talk about health, we talk

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Speaker 1: about guns, we talk about all of these different pieces,

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Speaker 1: and I mean we as in like the greater we

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Speaker 1: of progressis and democrats and we say, what is going

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Speaker 1: to be the thing that draws people into this election?

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Speaker 1: And so the abortion rights people are going to say

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Speaker 1: it's abortion. The healthcare people are going to say it's

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Speaker 1: the attack on Medicaid and medicare the you know, the

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Speaker 1: gun folks are going to say it's guns. Like so

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Speaker 1: it's like, while everyone has their specialty, their focus, their

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Speaker 1: area of concern, right, what is the bigger picture? And

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Speaker 1: I think, to me your book, the bigger picture is

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Speaker 1: because we have refused and continue to refuse to have real, critical, thoughtful,

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Speaker 1: engaging and hard excruciating conversations on race. And by we,

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Speaker 1: I actually am talking specifically about white Americans refuse to

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Speaker 1: have a conversation where they don't center themselves as the victims,

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Speaker 1: like we don't get anywhere, right, and so like if

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Speaker 1: everything everything in America has to do boils back down

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Speaker 1: to race and racism, and because we refuse to address

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Speaker 1: that very thing, we make up all these other stories

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Speaker 1: and narratives. When if you were to just tackle and

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Speaker 1: it not like a just like it's so easy, but

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Speaker 1: if you were to have honest conversations and critique about

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Speaker 1: race and racism and how it shows up in any

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Speaker 1: given moment policy, whether it's sports and what happened with

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Speaker 1: the NC Double A and the women's game, and how

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Speaker 1: the white team is being Iowa's being framed in the

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Speaker 1: press versus the black led team of South Carolina, and

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Speaker 1: all of these things. We would be in a better place,

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Speaker 1: but it's because we choose to ignore it, right and

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Speaker 1: make it be about anything else, because we've told ourselves

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Speaker 1: that conversations about and racism are too complicated.

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Speaker 2: So let me ask you, let's use this example that

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about, because I mean, this is kind of

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Speaker 2: what I wanted to talk about. I guess I'm centering

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Speaker 2: my books act as the conversation. But it was interesting

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Speaker 2: to see what happened, right, I mean again, I'm glad,

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Speaker 2: you know, you write a book. It's out there in

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Speaker 2: the world. People can interpret it however they want. But

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Speaker 2: what was interesting after this thing? So this guy posts

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Speaker 2: he uses the wrong terminology on page twenty or something

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Speaker 2: like that, and his audience is a bunch of people

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Speaker 2: who really care about guns, Like that's really his audience.

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Speaker 2: So it's great, I'm happy to talk to those people.

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Speaker 2: But what happened then is none of those guys read

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Speaker 2: the book. They were all like, yeah, this is another

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Speaker 2: liberal guy who doesn't use our terminology and all this

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Speaker 2: kind of stuff. And then I'm getting bombarded with like

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Speaker 2: all these gun owners who just saw their one piece,

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Speaker 2: which is one guy realized on page twenty I used

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Speaker 2: the wrong term for bullets, and in their world like

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Speaker 2: then that became the metaphor, so they only so the

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Speaker 2: guy who read the book only saw his little piece,

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Speaker 2: which I think you're right, everybody's reading for their one piece.

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Speaker 2: And then the people who then sought on social media,

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Speaker 2: they didn't even read the book. They were then riffing

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Speaker 2: off of this guy's critique, which reinforced their own critiques

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Speaker 2: of liberals not wanting to go there. So one guy,

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Speaker 2: I feel misread the book, and then ten thousand other

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Speaker 2: people went off of his misreading to then categorize me

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Speaker 2: and rift back on me. And so again that's how

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Speaker 2: our algorithms work. Now, the question I have is should

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Speaker 2: the gun guy have been reading for racism? In other words,

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Speaker 2: was his blindness not saying racism or was it me

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Speaker 2: as the author who didn't use.

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Speaker 3: The right term?

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Speaker 1: I see, I see, I see it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, like, is it fair to say that he

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Speaker 2: should have been reading for racism?

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Speaker 3: Is it? I mean? The algorithms is yeah.

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Speaker 1: I liken it to art right When an artist has

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Speaker 1: a canvas and they paint from their perspective. Right, they're

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Speaker 1: expressing themselves in what they see and feel and are

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Speaker 1: expressing in that moment. How everyone else interprets that piece

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Speaker 1: is going to be, it's gonna be subject to their

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Speaker 1: own knowledge and perspective and their emotions in that moment.

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Speaker 1: And so while you want people to read it for race,

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Speaker 1: you wrote it in that way. But if I choose

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Speaker 1: quote unquote not to see race, then like, that's not

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Speaker 1: the area that I'm going to dig into, right because

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Speaker 1: these people, I believe, will make up an excuse about

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Speaker 1: anything as to why that man that shot up all

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Speaker 1: of those black people in a waffle house, like why

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Speaker 1: like oh, well, you know, and just pull out some

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Speaker 1: obscure shit as to why this wasn't about race, as

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Speaker 1: to why it was just a madman. Oh he was

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Speaker 1: just crazy. Oh it was just this, Oh it was

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Speaker 1: just that. Because they're not they're not willing and or

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Speaker 1: equipped to do the heavy lifting around race and racism,

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Speaker 1: so it is so much easier to excuse it, to

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Speaker 1: make it be something else.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I wrote a book about guns, So

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Speaker 2: I do think it's a cumbent on me to get

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Speaker 2: the terminology right. Like I do think that's a fair critique.

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Speaker 2: It's just more that when you're just reading for your

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Speaker 2: one thing, you don't see the bigger things. And conversely,

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Speaker 2: now here's my provocation for our conversation. Conversely, like my

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Speaker 2: publisher told me, I should name this book Killing for Whiteness,

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Speaker 2: like I should make it much more overtly about race,

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Speaker 2: like the title of the book. And I'm like, first

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Speaker 2: of all, I don't want to be the guy who

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Speaker 2: wrote dying of Whiteness and then killing like I don't know,

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Speaker 2: it's like I'll never get you know, I'll never that's like,

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Speaker 2: you know, so I didn't want to be that guy.

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Speaker 2: But I also, as you know from the book, there

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Speaker 2: are a lot of things that are really complicated about

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Speaker 2: race happening in the book. It wasn't just a story.

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Speaker 2: In other words, after the waffle house shooting happened, the

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Speaker 2: story was hijacked by Sean King and other people I

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Speaker 2: write about this in the book to say this is

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Speaker 2: just overt racism. Shooter was racist. And what I argue

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Speaker 2: in the book is there's a much more nuanced story

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Speaker 2: about race and guns happening that's kind of why I

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Speaker 2: want people to read the book, because the story isn't

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Speaker 2: just the shooter was racist. It's actually a much bigger

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Speaker 2: story about what kind of bodies code as protectors and

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Speaker 2: what kind of bodies code as criminals, About how somebody

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Speaker 2: who codes as a protector, even if they're telling people

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Speaker 2: they're going to be a mess shooter, the system rewards

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Speaker 2: that particular body. So it's a much bigger story. So

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Speaker 2: I didn't want it to be like some simplistic thing.

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Speaker 2: I expressly didn't mention race in the title because I

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Speaker 2: wanted people to like under see how the story unfolded.

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Speaker 2: And let me just say the point is, if I

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Speaker 2: would have said, like, this is about gun racism, I

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Speaker 2: would have sold a zillion more copies, because there are

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Speaker 2: just like racism is its own way of reading also,

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Speaker 2: and so it's also sometimes I feel like harder to

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Speaker 2: complicate that story. And this isn't me complaining as an author.

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Speaker 2: I'm just telling you what it's been interesting to see.

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering though, like I mean, I guess then, is

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Speaker 1: there a sense of regret on your stops? Are more

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Speaker 1: people likely than not to get the picture of what

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Speaker 1: it is that you're painting, or do you feel like now,

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Speaker 1: in hindsight, you should have had a more race focused

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Speaker 1: title to lend itself greater sense of clarity.

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Speaker 3: I don't.

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Speaker 2: I'm happy I left it ambiguous. I guess I'm struggling

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Speaker 2: now with I mean for me the book that there

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Speaker 2: are two main stories in the book.

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Speaker 3: The main story of the.

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Speaker 2: Book is about the waffle House mass shooting, the story

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Speaker 2: of what happened, the story of how a naked white

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Speaker 2: man with an ar fifteen ended up in South Nashville

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Speaker 2: killing for young adults of color and injuring for others,

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Speaker 2: And how for me that story complicated the narrative about

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Speaker 2: race and guns that I understood going into the story,

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Speaker 2: which is about the racism of the shooter, and I

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Speaker 2: understood race to be a much more disturbing and more

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Speaker 2: diffuse story about the race of the system, the race

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Speaker 2: of all these things. So half the stories about the

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Speaker 2: story of the waffle House mass shooting. The other half

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Speaker 2: of the story is about how that recognizing that that

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Speaker 2: the story I was telling about whiteness and guns was

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Speaker 2: too simplistic made me rethink a bunch of stuff about

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Speaker 2: liberal gun control that liberal gun control similarly had a

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Speaker 2: bunch of assumptions embedded about what our policies were meant

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Speaker 2: to do, who we were trying to regulate, what it

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Speaker 2: meant to involve the government, for example, all these other things.

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Speaker 2: So I started rethinking policies for example, like background checks

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Speaker 2: that ask people to put their name in a government database,

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Speaker 2: or red flag laws that invite the cops into your

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Speaker 2: home to do a welfare check on your relatives. I

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Speaker 2: started rethinking the race implications of who was being policed

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Speaker 2: by gun control policies. It turns out a lot of

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Speaker 2: these policies were racialized in a very different way. They

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Speaker 2: were actually targeting communities of color also because those were

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Speaker 2: the people who were showing up on background checks more

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Speaker 2: and other things like that. So I was trying to

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Speaker 2: tell to interweave these two stories. It's a nightmare. I

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Speaker 2: should have written a book about puppies like I started

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Speaker 2: out to do. But I will say it's interesting for

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Speaker 2: me when I go on tour, which one of those

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Speaker 2: two stories people pick up on, And I guess it's

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Speaker 2: just been interesting that either people resonate with the story

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Speaker 2: of the waffle house shooting or they bring me to

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Speaker 2: task for critiquing liberal gun control. But it's I don't

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Speaker 2: know the books about both, and I always want to

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Speaker 2: say the books about both. So I'm glad I didn't

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Speaker 2: say this is a book about gun racism because I

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Speaker 2: want people to think about it. But I do agree

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Speaker 2: that it takes ten years from now somebody's going to

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Speaker 2: pick it up and be like, hey, wait a minute.

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Speaker 1: The problem that we are having, I think collectively, is

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Speaker 1: that no one wants to shift their perspective, because in

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Speaker 1: order to shift perspective and pivot into a new course

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Speaker 1: of action, you have to admit that something wasn't working.

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Speaker 1: And I think that whether it be progressives who are like, no,

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Speaker 1: we're going to continue doing the same thing over and

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Speaker 1: over again and eventually we'll wear them down, whereas the

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Speaker 1: trump Ist they just don't care. They're just blow up

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Speaker 1: whatever system. I think that the reason why we can't

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Speaker 1: attack Trumpism for what it is, and the reason why

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Speaker 1: we falter on a lot of issues, is because we're

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Speaker 1: not interested in making the pivots in action to match

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Speaker 1: the time and to match the energy that the opposition

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Speaker 1: is giving us. Right like, we keep trying to appeal

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Speaker 1: to people's moral center, We keep trying to appeal to well,

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Speaker 1: history will remember you. We keep trying to like do

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Speaker 1: these things, and what you're offering is a big pause

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Speaker 1: to say, actually, you know, we've been doing this for

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Speaker 1: some decades now, and you know, while we can continue

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Speaker 1: to say we need red flag laws and we need

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Speaker 1: these things, we know that that's not actually going to

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Speaker 1: change the outcome of a lot of the violence that

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Speaker 1: we are seeing. So what they want to do is

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Speaker 1: nibble around the edges and say, well, at least if

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Speaker 1: we get some win, that's better than no win at all.

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Speaker 1: And your perspective is like, what actually, like, we're wasting

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Speaker 1: time and energy because we could shift a conversation and

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Speaker 1: a narrative that gets us actually what we want instead

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Speaker 1: of a little bit of what doesn't even matter.

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Speaker 3: Here's a way I think that's brilliant. That's absolutely brilliant.

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Speaker 2: And the way I would rearticulate that maybe is that

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Speaker 2: we live in a world where people's people's implicit and

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Speaker 2: explicit biases, no matter what they are, are reinforced all

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Speaker 2: the time. In other words, you can select what news

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Speaker 2: you want, you can select what feed you want, and

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Speaker 2: so people are not often challenged about their own narratives

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Speaker 2: that you don't have to be and it's just a

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Speaker 2: risk to challenge those narratives, which I knew writing the book.

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Speaker 2: I knew the minute I started researching the shooting. I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh man, this is going to take me

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Speaker 2: someplace that's going to actually challenge what I thought I

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Speaker 2: knew and what's the role of that. I mean, on

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Speaker 2: the one hand, you can see why there's a good

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Speaker 2: reason to not challenge those narratives. Right we live in

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Speaker 2: a zero sum, winner take all electoral system. The algorithms

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Speaker 2: of social media reinforce a kind of conformity. And if

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Speaker 2: you're saying, like gosh, I thought differently about this, that

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Speaker 2: just not monetized in our social media world. There's a

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Speaker 2: million reasons. I mean, you don't want to judge or

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Speaker 2: a politician who gets in office and then says, man,

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Speaker 2: I totally changed my mind about like this key issue,

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Speaker 2: Like we live in a world where not rethinking those

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Speaker 2: So I understand that it's a challenge, but ultimately that

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Speaker 2: was what made this book for me honestly rewarding, was

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Speaker 2: that I ended up at least trying to say, like,

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Speaker 2: let's take a look at what we've got here. And

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Speaker 2: also the stakes of not questioning that. Like for guns,

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Speaker 2: for example, they're incredible people doing incredible work. I support them,

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Speaker 2: I'm one of them, but I would also say, like,

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Speaker 2: if you're here in Tennessee, we're getting our butts kicked

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Speaker 2: right and left about every gun bill. The Supreme Court

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Speaker 2: overturned New York's gun laws. The Supreme Court is about to,

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Speaker 2: I think, legalize bump stocks. Like you can't say that

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Speaker 2: we're winning right now, and so part of what I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to say is you have to understand like kind

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Speaker 2: of how we got here, to think about how we

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Speaker 2: can maybe tweak our strategy a little bit. And the

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Speaker 2: story is incredible, but you know, I think you're right.

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Speaker 2: Maybe ten years from now people will be like, hey,

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Speaker 2: that guy, that guy who was saying it before.

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Speaker 1: I mean, i'd like to say that it will be sooner,

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Speaker 1: but I think that you know, this is also like

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Speaker 1: a lesson in you know, sociology and human nature and

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Speaker 1: how people take on new information and like the timeline

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Speaker 1: of that adaptation, right, and so no one wants to

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Speaker 1: be and I don't think and again, like I'll just

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Speaker 1: say this in closing, like I don't think that you're

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Speaker 1: a contrarian in terms of saying like, oh, liberals, like

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Speaker 1: you're dumb and you've been doing it wrong all along.

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Speaker 1: I think that you're looking at this and saying, what

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Speaker 1: do we really want? Yes, And I think that and

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Speaker 1: I think that too often we don't stop and say,

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Speaker 1: you know, oh, we're fighting for freedom, we're fighting for this,

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Speaker 1: that and the other thing. What the fuck does that

433
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: actually look like? What do you actually want? You know,

434
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: when we're saying gun safety, when we're saying these things

435
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: like what what does that feel and look like for us?

436
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: For our kids to shop, to go to school, to live,

437
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: to exist? Yeah, And I think that what you're offering

438
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: is like the head tilt and the perspective to say, oh,

439
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: maybe we need to look at the picture this way.

440
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 2: And again, like I'm a doctor, I'm for prevention, I'm

441
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 2: for health. But like, ultimately, what I'm trying to say

442
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 2: in the book is that a prevention framework in an

443
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 2: ideal world is the only framework we should put around guns.

444
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 2: We shouldn't have injury and death. But if you're against

445
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 2: an adversary whose aim is power, who doesn't really care

446
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 2: about prevention at all, but they're using guns to control

447
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,360
Speaker 2: the courts and control you and overturn New York gun

448
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 2: laws and overturn all these other things that aren't linked

449
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 2: to guns, like pro gun judges are now deciding all

450
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 2: these First Amendment cases and women's reproductive choice cases and

451
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 2: all these things. So if you're up against an adversary

452
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 2: whose aim is power, the health framework is not going

453
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 2: to be useful. And that's kind of the message for me,

454
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 2: is that if you look, for example, at the Brewined decision,

455
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 2: we made all these health arguments and this report was like, yeah,

456
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 2: we don't care. And so in a way, we had

457
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 2: the right strategy if people were everybody was operating like

458
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 2: they did with cigarettes and cars, as if saving life

459
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: was the most important thing. But if you're up against

460
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 2: an adversary whose aim as power, you actually need a

461
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: power strategy, and the health framework doesn't get us there.

462
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 2: And so that's kind of what I'm trying to say,

463
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 2: is we we have the wrong strategy for the adversary

464
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 2: we we're up against.

465
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,479
Speaker 1: That's kind of so then when Pete asked you deliver

466
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: your book thesis in a sentence, it needs to like

467
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: that needs to be what it is that we're up

468
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: against an adversary that is solely about power, and we

469
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: were coming at it from the lens of saving lives

470
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: and health, and that's not it. It needs to come

471
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: from a power place period.

472
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: Okay, cool, Hey Pete, if you're listening, it's not like

473
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: I'm struggling with the narrative. And again I'm at the

474
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,959
Speaker 2: end of the book tour. It's more just like seeing

475
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 2: how I mean, it's always with a book like you

476
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 2: wish you would have just said that upfront. But also

477
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: it's interesting because it is in the book in about

478
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 2: thirty places, but people don't see it because they're worried

479
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: about if I use the right word for bullets, like

480
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,959
Speaker 2: people read to reinforce, Like we all this we read.

481
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 2: It's kind of like that Gary Larson cartoon where the

482
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: dog only hears her name and not the million other

483
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 2: things the dog owner is saying or something like. We

484
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 2: all read through our own lens, right, That's how we read.

485
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 2: And so it's it's interesting to be an author right

486
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 2: now who's challenging those things an interesting way.

487
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: So yeah, anyway, well, my friend, we will leave it

488
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: there today, but.

489
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 3: I have one more thing to say.

490
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: What's the one more thing?

491
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 3: Next week?

492
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 2: Let's talk about Trump becoming pro choice. I'm so delighted

493
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,959
Speaker 2: that Trump is joining our side. Please, instead of like

494
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 2: trying to highlight how he's obviously being a manipulative hypocritic,

495
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 2: we should embrace him to our side. Like start painting

496
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 2: Trump as a liberal. That would be way. Like let's

497
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 2: invite Trump to like liberal conferences to support abortion. I

498
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 2: don't know, we should be like to take flowers on

499
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 2: his head.

500
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: I hate that man so much. If I never I like,

501
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: I keep saying, like the day that I am done

502
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: with Trump and never have to talk about him ever again,

503
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: and it will just be in the past tense. Well

504
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: I that day, I don't know what I will do.

505
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: It'll be a party.

506
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 2: No, there is no it's the Rennet baron Trump and

507
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 2: then Muffy Trump and then.

508
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 3: No, I don't like.

509
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: This is not the Seven Dwarfs. All right, my friend,

510
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: thank you so very much as always for making time

511
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: for wok F. I appreciate you so much. And folks,

512
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: if you have not yet gone out and purchased or

513
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: ordered what we've become, you need to get it now.

514
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:46,719
Speaker 1: Thank you.

515
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 3: Take care.

516
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: That is it for me today, dear friends on wok F,

517
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: as always power to the people and to all the

518
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: people power. Get woke and stay woke as fuck.