1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:24,676 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners, We're cruising through our special 2 00:00:24,676 --> 00:00:28,196 Speaker 1: series on spring cleaning your happiness, and we're continuing our 3 00:00:28,236 --> 00:00:31,276 Speaker 1: deep dive into the Happiness Lab archive to find well 4 00:00:31,316 --> 00:00:34,716 Speaker 1: being boosting insights that you might have missed. This week's 5 00:00:34,716 --> 00:00:37,876 Speaker 1: classic episode takes on cleaning up one of the messiest, 6 00:00:38,036 --> 00:00:42,596 Speaker 1: most cluttered parts of our lives, our schedules. Ever had 7 00:00:42,596 --> 00:00:44,316 Speaker 1: a week when it felt like you didn't have a 8 00:00:44,356 --> 00:00:47,316 Speaker 1: single moment of downtime, when it felt like your calendar 9 00:00:47,396 --> 00:00:51,556 Speaker 1: was overflowing with endless meetings and to dos. Social scientists 10 00:00:51,596 --> 00:00:53,996 Speaker 1: have a word for that awful feeling. They call it 11 00:00:54,156 --> 00:00:57,236 Speaker 1: time famine, and studies show that time famine can make 12 00:00:57,276 --> 00:00:59,916 Speaker 1: you miserable. But what would it look like to spring 13 00:00:59,956 --> 00:01:03,156 Speaker 1: clean your schedule, to carve out time to wander around, 14 00:01:03,276 --> 00:01:06,116 Speaker 1: to chat with friends, to think about nothing in particular, 15 00:01:06,596 --> 00:01:09,716 Speaker 1: or even to take an afternoon nap. That is what 16 00:01:09,796 --> 00:01:13,236 Speaker 1: I explore in this throwback Happiness Lab episode, So get 17 00:01:13,236 --> 00:01:15,716 Speaker 1: ready to clean up those schedules and to break free 18 00:01:15,756 --> 00:01:19,356 Speaker 1: from the tyranny of time. In today's throwback episode, which 19 00:01:19,396 --> 00:01:43,596 Speaker 1: is coming up right after the break looking back at 20 00:01:43,636 --> 00:01:47,236 Speaker 1: my Diary Wednesday, February fifth, twenty twenty was a fairly 21 00:01:47,316 --> 00:01:50,756 Speaker 1: ordinary day. And by fairly ordinary, I mean to say 22 00:01:50,756 --> 00:01:54,956 Speaker 1: that my day was absolutely packed to the brim, which 23 00:01:54,996 --> 00:01:57,836 Speaker 1: makes sense because I don't just have one amazing job, 24 00:01:58,076 --> 00:02:01,116 Speaker 1: I have lots of them. I'm a professor and a 25 00:02:01,156 --> 00:02:04,596 Speaker 1: research scientist. I run one of Yelle's residential colleges, which 26 00:02:04,636 --> 00:02:06,636 Speaker 1: means I have over four hundred students to take care 27 00:02:06,676 --> 00:02:08,996 Speaker 1: of all the time. I travel a bunch for public 28 00:02:08,956 --> 00:02:11,716 Speaker 1: life ures to spread the science of happiness. I'm a 29 00:02:11,756 --> 00:02:13,956 Speaker 1: manager to all my amazing staff, a colleague to my 30 00:02:14,036 --> 00:02:17,756 Speaker 1: science friends, and now I'm a podcaster too. So how 31 00:02:17,756 --> 00:02:20,476 Speaker 1: do I keep track of all these different roles. My 32 00:02:20,636 --> 00:02:23,796 Speaker 1: planner it's a small red notebook that I carry with 33 00:02:23,876 --> 00:02:26,996 Speaker 1: me everywhere. It's where I write out every single commitment 34 00:02:27,036 --> 00:02:29,396 Speaker 1: I have, including the time it starts and the time 35 00:02:29,396 --> 00:02:33,396 Speaker 1: it ends. My planner is like a precious friend. It 36 00:02:33,436 --> 00:02:35,156 Speaker 1: helps me keep track of what I need to do 37 00:02:35,276 --> 00:02:37,676 Speaker 1: every single day. And so I'm not looking in my 38 00:02:37,716 --> 00:02:40,836 Speaker 1: planner at the page for Wednesday, February fifth, twenty twenty, 39 00:02:41,316 --> 00:02:45,196 Speaker 1: which as usual, was completely packed. On that day, I 40 00:02:45,236 --> 00:02:47,956 Speaker 1: had some podcast stuff to do at specific times, three 41 00:02:47,996 --> 00:02:51,756 Speaker 1: different student meetings, a staff meeting and an important department talk, 42 00:02:52,636 --> 00:02:55,436 Speaker 1: after which I wrote, in very decisive all caps lettering 43 00:02:55,876 --> 00:02:59,836 Speaker 1: three forty five pm leave immediately. That was a note 44 00:02:59,836 --> 00:03:01,636 Speaker 1: to remind myself that I needed to get out of 45 00:03:01,716 --> 00:03:03,996 Speaker 1: that department talk a little early in order to make 46 00:03:04,036 --> 00:03:06,276 Speaker 1: it to the airport for my flight to DC that night. 47 00:03:07,156 --> 00:03:09,756 Speaker 1: That one was a very very hard stop. But on 48 00:03:09,756 --> 00:03:12,636 Speaker 1: this particular busy day, my morning got to begin with 49 00:03:12,716 --> 00:03:17,196 Speaker 1: a really exciting start. Eight am interview with Tom Hodgkinson, 50 00:03:17,556 --> 00:03:18,796 Speaker 1: one of my personal heroes. 51 00:03:18,996 --> 00:03:20,676 Speaker 2: I'm here, but I can only hear you very fently. 52 00:03:21,156 --> 00:03:24,556 Speaker 1: I've admired Tom and his work for years, very great quiet. 53 00:03:25,156 --> 00:03:27,276 Speaker 1: I had scheduled Tom's interview for a whole hour in 54 00:03:27,316 --> 00:03:30,116 Speaker 1: my calendar, but with so so much to ask him, 55 00:03:30,276 --> 00:03:32,796 Speaker 1: I was worried I wouldn't have enough time. And by 56 00:03:32,796 --> 00:03:34,956 Speaker 1: this point we were already ten minutes into our time 57 00:03:34,996 --> 00:03:37,996 Speaker 1: together and Tom couldn't hear me. We tinkered with the 58 00:03:38,036 --> 00:03:40,996 Speaker 1: mics and checked the phone connection. I kept asking Tom, 59 00:03:41,156 --> 00:03:42,276 Speaker 1: is my voice louder now? 60 00:03:42,436 --> 00:03:43,396 Speaker 2: I'm afraid not no. 61 00:03:44,036 --> 00:03:46,796 Speaker 1: As the time ticked away, I felt my stress levels rising. 62 00:03:47,476 --> 00:03:49,596 Speaker 1: It was already really difficult to find a long enough 63 00:03:49,636 --> 00:03:52,516 Speaker 1: slot for this interview, and so I mean, should we 64 00:03:52,556 --> 00:03:54,876 Speaker 1: push through and risk me being late for all the 65 00:03:54,916 --> 00:03:57,116 Speaker 1: rest of the stuff that day, or should I try 66 00:03:57,156 --> 00:04:00,156 Speaker 1: to reschedule for god knows when I was starting to 67 00:04:00,196 --> 00:04:02,636 Speaker 1: freak out and then suddenly. 68 00:04:02,436 --> 00:04:03,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty good. 69 00:04:03,316 --> 00:04:06,836 Speaker 1: Yeah Tom could finally hear me, which meant the interview 70 00:04:06,836 --> 00:04:10,716 Speaker 1: I was most looking forward to this season begin So 71 00:04:10,836 --> 00:04:13,036 Speaker 1: what was the topic I was so anxious to jump 72 00:04:13,116 --> 00:04:15,556 Speaker 1: into with Tom? So talk to me about your history 73 00:04:15,636 --> 00:04:17,876 Speaker 1: of becoming an idler, Like what drove you to that? 74 00:04:18,276 --> 00:04:21,196 Speaker 1: Talk about kind of why you decided to become more idle. 75 00:04:21,436 --> 00:04:25,196 Speaker 2: I think I was born fairly idle. I always had 76 00:04:25,236 --> 00:04:27,556 Speaker 2: a strong will towards idling. 77 00:04:28,116 --> 00:04:32,236 Speaker 1: Yep idling, it's a pretty foreign concept, at least for me. 78 00:04:33,156 --> 00:04:33,596 Speaker 2: I tend to. 79 00:04:33,596 --> 00:04:36,316 Speaker 1: Fill my day to the brim, mostly with meaningful and 80 00:04:36,356 --> 00:04:39,196 Speaker 1: interesting things. I always thought that was what I was 81 00:04:39,236 --> 00:04:42,116 Speaker 1: supposed to do, But it's gotten to the point where 82 00:04:42,116 --> 00:04:45,156 Speaker 1: my calendar is now so packed that I sometimes feel 83 00:04:45,156 --> 00:04:47,116 Speaker 1: like I'm drowning and all the stuff I have to do. 84 00:04:47,996 --> 00:04:51,476 Speaker 1: Maybe you can relate, But as we'll see in this episode, 85 00:04:51,836 --> 00:04:54,516 Speaker 1: if we really want to improve our happiness, we need 86 00:04:54,556 --> 00:05:01,636 Speaker 1: to learn to do well a lot less. Our minds 87 00:05:01,636 --> 00:05:03,636 Speaker 1: are constantly telling us what to do to be happy. 88 00:05:04,036 --> 00:05:06,236 Speaker 1: But what if our minds are wrong? What if our 89 00:05:06,276 --> 00:05:08,716 Speaker 1: minds are lying to us, leading us away from what 90 00:05:08,716 --> 00:05:11,356 Speaker 1: we really make us happy. The good news is that 91 00:05:11,436 --> 00:05:13,716 Speaker 1: understanding the science of the mind can point us all 92 00:05:13,756 --> 00:05:16,716 Speaker 1: back in the right direction. You're listening to the Happiness 93 00:05:16,756 --> 00:05:18,356 Speaker 1: Lab with doctor Laurie Sanders. 94 00:05:24,596 --> 00:05:28,276 Speaker 2: Alarm clock. What a horrible invention, I mean, a horrible 95 00:05:28,276 --> 00:05:30,716 Speaker 2: way just to hot the day. Get out of bed. 96 00:05:30,756 --> 00:05:32,996 Speaker 2: Come on, you're lazy. You're never gonna get anywhere. 97 00:05:33,436 --> 00:05:37,676 Speaker 1: Tom is obsessed with clocks because he absolutely despises them. 98 00:05:37,796 --> 00:05:39,996 Speaker 1: In his book How to Be Idle, Tom tells his 99 00:05:40,076 --> 00:05:42,556 Speaker 1: readers that to be happier, they need to throw away 100 00:05:42,556 --> 00:05:43,516 Speaker 1: their alarm clocks. 101 00:05:43,836 --> 00:05:45,876 Speaker 2: I'm not one of those people who leaps out of 102 00:05:45,876 --> 00:05:48,076 Speaker 2: bed at the moment my eyes open. Yeah, I can't 103 00:05:48,116 --> 00:05:50,156 Speaker 2: wait to get on with my day. You know, quite 104 00:05:50,156 --> 00:05:54,316 Speaker 2: a lovely in between states in between wake and sleep, 105 00:05:54,356 --> 00:05:56,156 Speaker 2: when you're sort of half conscious of your dreams. I 106 00:05:56,156 --> 00:05:58,996 Speaker 2: think that's a lovely state to be in. And a 107 00:05:59,116 --> 00:06:02,996 Speaker 2: slower transition from sleep to wake I think is civilized 108 00:06:03,356 --> 00:06:03,836 Speaker 2: these days. 109 00:06:03,876 --> 00:06:07,236 Speaker 1: Clocks are everywhere from our nightstands, to our laptops, to 110 00:06:07,316 --> 00:06:10,076 Speaker 1: our wrists. It's easy to forget that watching the minutes 111 00:06:10,116 --> 00:06:13,156 Speaker 1: of the day tick by is actually a new development. 112 00:06:13,556 --> 00:06:15,916 Speaker 2: In medieval times, to an extent, there were masters of 113 00:06:15,916 --> 00:06:17,636 Speaker 2: their own time, so they could sort of do a 114 00:06:17,676 --> 00:06:19,876 Speaker 2: bit of weaving, have a nap, go into the vegetable 115 00:06:19,916 --> 00:06:22,316 Speaker 2: gold and do a bit more weaving, go to church, 116 00:06:22,356 --> 00:06:22,836 Speaker 2: and so on. 117 00:06:23,156 --> 00:06:26,316 Speaker 1: Life back then was sometimes brutal, but Tom thinks our 118 00:06:26,356 --> 00:06:30,356 Speaker 1: pre industrial ancestors enjoyed something that we've given up, a 119 00:06:30,396 --> 00:06:33,516 Speaker 1: complete disregard for what hour it is. For most of 120 00:06:33,596 --> 00:06:36,556 Speaker 1: human history, it was pretty hard to know the precise time. 121 00:06:36,956 --> 00:06:39,356 Speaker 1: All medieval folks had was the position of the sun. 122 00:06:40,116 --> 00:06:41,036 Speaker 1: While that and. 123 00:06:48,636 --> 00:06:50,116 Speaker 2: The bell was signaled the end of the kind of 124 00:06:50,196 --> 00:06:51,716 Speaker 2: the shift of the fields, or whatever. 125 00:06:52,436 --> 00:06:54,196 Speaker 1: The chimes from the church tower meant that it was 126 00:06:54,236 --> 00:06:57,196 Speaker 1: time to put down your tools, time to assemble together 127 00:06:57,676 --> 00:07:01,076 Speaker 1: for worship or a meal, time to think of something 128 00:07:01,236 --> 00:07:06,716 Speaker 1: other than work. That is, until the Industrial Revolution kicked. 129 00:07:06,476 --> 00:07:11,276 Speaker 2: In, the system changed. He became a factory worker. The 130 00:07:11,316 --> 00:07:14,116 Speaker 2: capitalist bought huge amounts of machinery and invested in it, 131 00:07:14,516 --> 00:07:17,116 Speaker 2: and they had to keep this machinery going well twenty 132 00:07:17,116 --> 00:07:19,636 Speaker 2: four to seven ideally, so the people were told, life's 133 00:07:19,636 --> 00:07:21,316 Speaker 2: not about working at home. When you feel like it, 134 00:07:21,356 --> 00:07:23,756 Speaker 2: you know, time kind of weirdly becomes this sort of 135 00:07:24,076 --> 00:07:25,396 Speaker 2: like a sort of a tyrant. 136 00:07:25,636 --> 00:07:28,396 Speaker 1: Tom is like a resistance fighter at war with this 137 00:07:28,476 --> 00:07:31,836 Speaker 1: tyrannical concept of time, and his primary weapon in the 138 00:07:31,876 --> 00:07:37,116 Speaker 1: struggle is idling. Idling is the act of loafing, taking 139 00:07:37,156 --> 00:07:41,916 Speaker 1: time to do nothing. In particular, think long lunches, midday naps, 140 00:07:42,356 --> 00:07:45,996 Speaker 1: tea time taking the scenic route, getting lost for no 141 00:07:46,076 --> 00:07:49,796 Speaker 1: reason at all, daydreaming, hanging with friends at the pub, 142 00:07:50,716 --> 00:07:53,796 Speaker 1: long happy conversations that run well past the time we 143 00:07:53,956 --> 00:07:57,716 Speaker 1: probably should have gone to bed. Tom encourages all of these. 144 00:07:58,356 --> 00:08:01,676 Speaker 1: His books are manifestos against the cult of productivity that 145 00:08:01,796 --> 00:08:02,876 Speaker 1: many of us grew up with. 146 00:08:03,116 --> 00:08:05,396 Speaker 2: When you're not working, when you're reflecting, when you're walking 147 00:08:05,476 --> 00:08:08,316 Speaker 2: around the groves with your friends and talking about art 148 00:08:08,476 --> 00:08:11,596 Speaker 2: and love and philosophy and ideas, that's when you're really living. 149 00:08:11,676 --> 00:08:14,476 Speaker 2: And if we overwork, then you neglect that very important 150 00:08:14,476 --> 00:08:15,356 Speaker 2: part of life. 151 00:08:15,716 --> 00:08:17,756 Speaker 1: I first learned of Tom's work back in the early 152 00:08:17,756 --> 00:08:21,116 Speaker 1: two thousands, when I myself had just started to neglect 153 00:08:21,236 --> 00:08:24,076 Speaker 1: all these important parts of life at the time I 154 00:08:24,116 --> 00:08:27,316 Speaker 1: was an untenured assistant professor, working all hours to get 155 00:08:27,356 --> 00:08:30,196 Speaker 1: papers out in my lab up and running. I had 156 00:08:30,236 --> 00:08:33,636 Speaker 1: fully subscribed to the philosophy that my generation inherited back 157 00:08:33,676 --> 00:08:37,676 Speaker 1: from the days of the Industrial Revolution, that productivity is king. 158 00:08:38,436 --> 00:08:41,076 Speaker 1: The idea of spending long hours walking around a grove 159 00:08:41,116 --> 00:08:44,236 Speaker 1: with friends talking about art and philosophy. I mean that 160 00:08:44,316 --> 00:08:49,116 Speaker 1: seemed incredibly foreign, almost unattainable, but if I was being honest, 161 00:08:49,476 --> 00:08:52,956 Speaker 1: it also sounded kind of amazing. I think it's one 162 00:08:52,956 --> 00:08:55,156 Speaker 1: of the reasons I was first drawn to Tom's books. 163 00:08:55,476 --> 00:08:57,676 Speaker 2: To devote a good portion of each day or each 164 00:08:57,716 --> 00:08:59,876 Speaker 2: week to idling is actually very very good for you, 165 00:09:00,276 --> 00:09:02,516 Speaker 2: for your health, for your mental health, feel physical health, 166 00:09:02,516 --> 00:09:04,756 Speaker 2: for the health of your friends. That doesn't mean to 167 00:09:04,756 --> 00:09:06,756 Speaker 2: say that you don't work or you don't enjoy working. 168 00:09:07,276 --> 00:09:09,796 Speaker 2: In fact, idlers would probably like to find something they 169 00:09:09,836 --> 00:09:12,156 Speaker 2: would like to do anyway and make it into their work. 170 00:09:12,796 --> 00:09:15,356 Speaker 1: The problem, according to Tom, is when the urge to 171 00:09:15,436 --> 00:09:17,996 Speaker 1: work makes us a sleeve to the clock, when we 172 00:09:18,076 --> 00:09:21,076 Speaker 1: completely lose any free time whatsoever. 173 00:09:20,956 --> 00:09:22,756 Speaker 2: So we're all contently looking at our watches like the 174 00:09:22,756 --> 00:09:26,116 Speaker 2: white rabbit in Lewis Carroll's Alis in Wonderland. Late late. 175 00:09:26,156 --> 00:09:28,676 Speaker 2: I'm very late, completely unable to live in the moment. 176 00:09:28,836 --> 00:09:31,676 Speaker 2: You know. I read these things on Twitter saying, hey guys, sorry, 177 00:09:31,676 --> 00:09:33,196 Speaker 2: but you know, if you're twenty six and you're not 178 00:09:33,236 --> 00:09:35,836 Speaker 2: working crazy hours, you're not going to get anywhere. I 179 00:09:35,836 --> 00:09:39,356 Speaker 2: think that's so wrong. Work in itself is not good, 180 00:09:39,636 --> 00:09:41,876 Speaker 2: and that's one idea that I want to fight. It's 181 00:09:41,916 --> 00:09:43,916 Speaker 2: this idea that because any kind of hard work is 182 00:09:43,916 --> 00:09:44,516 Speaker 2: morally good. 183 00:09:44,916 --> 00:09:48,156 Speaker 1: Tom worries that our modern ethos of productivity is turning 184 00:09:48,196 --> 00:09:51,156 Speaker 1: all of us into unfortunate work hourses, the kind that 185 00:09:51,196 --> 00:09:53,316 Speaker 1: great literature has long warned us about. 186 00:09:53,716 --> 00:09:57,156 Speaker 2: In Animal Farm, we have the example of the horse boxer, who, 187 00:09:57,316 --> 00:10:01,956 Speaker 2: when faced with the problems of work, harder work, harder work, 188 00:10:02,076 --> 00:10:05,036 Speaker 2: until he works himself into an early grave. He's taken 189 00:10:05,076 --> 00:10:07,916 Speaker 2: off to the glue factory. Now, that to me is 190 00:10:07,956 --> 00:10:13,676 Speaker 2: a that's a warning overwork causes stress, heart disease. It 191 00:10:13,716 --> 00:10:17,876 Speaker 2: obviously is bad for family life, bad for your relationships, 192 00:10:18,436 --> 00:10:20,716 Speaker 2: and who is it good for for you? For your ego, 193 00:10:20,756 --> 00:10:23,156 Speaker 2: for your boss to make more money. You know, when 194 00:10:23,196 --> 00:10:26,476 Speaker 2: you start to analyze these concepts, like the work ethic, 195 00:10:26,556 --> 00:10:28,396 Speaker 2: they start to dissolve. So I'm trying to look at 196 00:10:28,396 --> 00:10:30,196 Speaker 2: things from a different point of view. 197 00:10:31,036 --> 00:10:33,316 Speaker 1: Tom tries to live his entire life in accordance with 198 00:10:33,356 --> 00:10:37,276 Speaker 1: these beliefs, but many people find his suggestions deeply challenging. 199 00:10:38,076 --> 00:10:41,556 Speaker 1: At times, his ideas can sound like a radical religious ideology. 200 00:10:42,236 --> 00:10:46,756 Speaker 2: It's not laziness to create free time for yourself. It's 201 00:10:46,756 --> 00:10:49,116 Speaker 2: actually a mark of nobility. It brings you closer to 202 00:10:49,436 --> 00:10:52,556 Speaker 2: the gods. Actually, because when you start to realize where 203 00:10:52,596 --> 00:10:55,236 Speaker 2: this stuff comes from, it comes from the people in power. 204 00:10:55,596 --> 00:10:57,356 Speaker 2: I don't want to sound too Marxist, but it comes 205 00:10:57,396 --> 00:10:59,596 Speaker 2: from the owners of capital. It comes from the owners 206 00:10:59,596 --> 00:11:02,076 Speaker 2: of the means of production. They want to enslave us. 207 00:11:02,996 --> 00:11:05,876 Speaker 2: We've got to break free of these chains William Blake. 208 00:11:05,956 --> 00:11:10,036 Speaker 2: He talked about the mind forged manacles. Okay, we've created 209 00:11:10,076 --> 00:11:12,196 Speaker 2: a situation with our own minds, and we can't use 210 00:11:12,236 --> 00:11:14,756 Speaker 2: our own minds to break free of these manacles. 211 00:11:15,636 --> 00:11:18,076 Speaker 1: As I talked to Tom for this interview and reflected 212 00:11:18,116 --> 00:11:21,156 Speaker 1: on how stressed i'd been about my schedule just minutes before, 213 00:11:21,876 --> 00:11:24,956 Speaker 1: I got really sad. It's now been over a decade 214 00:11:24,996 --> 00:11:27,876 Speaker 1: since I first encountered Tom's work, and I'm still not 215 00:11:27,956 --> 00:11:31,876 Speaker 1: listening to his advice. If anything, I've become even more 216 00:11:31,876 --> 00:11:35,516 Speaker 1: trapped in those mindforged manacles. He talks about that ethos 217 00:11:35,556 --> 00:11:39,156 Speaker 1: of productivity at all costs. I mean, don't get me wrong, 218 00:11:39,236 --> 00:11:41,836 Speaker 1: I'm really grateful for all the career opportunities that keep 219 00:11:41,836 --> 00:11:45,476 Speaker 1: me so busy, especially this podcast, which I absolutely adore. 220 00:11:46,236 --> 00:11:49,956 Speaker 1: But I'm also really really overworked. I don't admit it much, 221 00:11:50,276 --> 00:11:53,796 Speaker 1: but I feel overwhelmed all the time. I can't remember 222 00:11:53,836 --> 00:11:56,676 Speaker 1: the last time I took a real vacation or had 223 00:11:56,716 --> 00:11:59,156 Speaker 1: even a moment to just be idle for the sake 224 00:11:59,196 --> 00:12:02,556 Speaker 1: of being idle, let alone trapes across a grove talking 225 00:12:02,556 --> 00:12:06,036 Speaker 1: about philosophy. There's not a single entry in my red 226 00:12:06,076 --> 00:12:08,956 Speaker 1: planner that says just do nothing. And all of this 227 00:12:09,196 --> 00:12:12,156 Speaker 1: makes me feel incredibly guilty, because as the host of 228 00:12:12,156 --> 00:12:16,196 Speaker 1: this podcast, I'm supposed to know better. Usually I'm pretty 229 00:12:16,236 --> 00:12:18,556 Speaker 1: good at following the advice I share with you, but 230 00:12:18,676 --> 00:12:21,156 Speaker 1: this is one domain where I'm really screwing things up. 231 00:12:21,716 --> 00:12:23,876 Speaker 1: And honestly, I don't even know what to do to 232 00:12:23,916 --> 00:12:27,276 Speaker 1: make my schedule less hectic these days. But as I 233 00:12:27,316 --> 00:12:30,436 Speaker 1: always say, when all else fails, you should turn to science. 234 00:12:31,156 --> 00:12:34,076 Speaker 1: After the break, we'll do just that. You'll hear what 235 00:12:34,196 --> 00:12:36,596 Speaker 1: feeling this busy does to your mental health and to 236 00:12:36,636 --> 00:12:40,276 Speaker 1: your relationships, and we'll see that having an extra bit 237 00:12:40,316 --> 00:12:43,076 Speaker 1: of free time is more valuable for our well being 238 00:12:43,516 --> 00:12:48,516 Speaker 1: than our lying minds often think, right, gotta go, the 239 00:12:48,556 --> 00:12:50,276 Speaker 1: happiness lab will be back in a moment. 240 00:13:13,836 --> 00:13:16,676 Speaker 3: Time affluence is this feeling of whether or not we 241 00:13:16,756 --> 00:13:19,116 Speaker 3: have enough time to do all of the things that 242 00:13:19,156 --> 00:13:20,716 Speaker 3: we want to do or have to do. 243 00:13:21,076 --> 00:13:23,956 Speaker 1: This is Ashley Willins, a professor at Harvard Business School 244 00:13:24,076 --> 00:13:26,756 Speaker 1: an author of the upcoming book Time Smart, How to 245 00:13:26,796 --> 00:13:30,396 Speaker 1: Reclaim your Time and live a happier life. Ashley is 246 00:13:30,436 --> 00:13:31,556 Speaker 1: another one of my heroes. 247 00:13:32,076 --> 00:13:35,116 Speaker 3: Instead of looking at whether we have objectively sort of 248 00:13:35,596 --> 00:13:38,476 Speaker 3: enough hours in a day, we're looking at subjectively whether 249 00:13:38,516 --> 00:13:40,436 Speaker 3: people feel like they have enough time. 250 00:13:41,116 --> 00:13:44,476 Speaker 1: Time affluence is one of my favorite scientific concepts because 251 00:13:44,516 --> 00:13:46,876 Speaker 1: it's the opposite of what I experience on a near 252 00:13:46,956 --> 00:13:51,916 Speaker 1: daily basis. My calendar never feels open. My subjective feeling 253 00:13:51,956 --> 00:13:55,236 Speaker 1: is one of extreme busyness, what researchers like Ashley have 254 00:13:55,316 --> 00:13:57,236 Speaker 1: christened time famine. 255 00:13:57,276 --> 00:14:01,796 Speaker 3: People today are feeling increasingly pressed for time, increasingly time poor, 256 00:14:02,516 --> 00:14:05,156 Speaker 3: such that they feel like they have too many things 257 00:14:05,196 --> 00:14:07,716 Speaker 3: to do and not enough time in the day to 258 00:14:07,756 --> 00:14:11,316 Speaker 3: do it. And it's interesting because there's also this data 259 00:14:11,436 --> 00:14:14,316 Speaker 3: suggesting that we objectively have more time today than we 260 00:14:14,396 --> 00:14:18,156 Speaker 3: used to. So subjective feelings of time stress are going up, 261 00:14:18,476 --> 00:14:22,116 Speaker 3: while the objective amount of time that we have is 262 00:14:22,156 --> 00:14:23,356 Speaker 3: actually going up as well. 263 00:14:23,676 --> 00:14:25,836 Speaker 1: So why do we fail to notice the extra minutes 264 00:14:25,876 --> 00:14:29,276 Speaker 1: we all have each day? The reason, according to science, 265 00:14:29,716 --> 00:14:32,076 Speaker 1: is that nowadays, our free time tends to be broken 266 00:14:32,156 --> 00:14:35,676 Speaker 1: up into tiny chunks or time confetti, So we. 267 00:14:35,716 --> 00:14:39,436 Speaker 3: Have more time confetti now than we used to. That 268 00:14:39,516 --> 00:14:43,476 Speaker 3: leisure time is sporadic, it's scattered because we're constantly connected 269 00:14:43,476 --> 00:14:47,556 Speaker 3: to our phones. We're trying to do many, many different tasks, 270 00:14:47,916 --> 00:14:50,796 Speaker 3: and our attention is being pulled in many directions. So 271 00:14:50,796 --> 00:14:52,556 Speaker 3: this feelings of trying to pack in all of this 272 00:14:52,716 --> 00:14:55,756 Speaker 3: stuff being pulled in all these directions during our free 273 00:14:55,796 --> 00:14:58,396 Speaker 3: time can make us feel more pressed for time. 274 00:14:58,556 --> 00:15:01,236 Speaker 1: I definitely get the concept of time confetti in my 275 00:15:01,276 --> 00:15:04,236 Speaker 1: own life because even when I get a break, it 276 00:15:04,316 --> 00:15:07,716 Speaker 1: never feels like a break. I'll be lounging and watching TV, 277 00:15:07,956 --> 00:15:10,716 Speaker 1: and I'll get a stressful tech about work, or I'll 278 00:15:10,716 --> 00:15:12,916 Speaker 1: be in the middle of an otherwise enjoyable dinner chat. 279 00:15:13,036 --> 00:15:14,956 Speaker 1: When I get this anxious urge to do a quick 280 00:15:14,996 --> 00:15:18,876 Speaker 1: email check, even lunch a time my idle Tom says 281 00:15:18,916 --> 00:15:22,276 Speaker 1: should be reserved for conversation. That often ends up being 282 00:15:22,276 --> 00:15:25,316 Speaker 1: a time that I spend alone trying to quickly scratch 283 00:15:25,316 --> 00:15:28,236 Speaker 1: a few things off that to do list. Sure, I 284 00:15:28,236 --> 00:15:30,676 Speaker 1: wind up getting more done. I mean it feels like 285 00:15:30,716 --> 00:15:33,636 Speaker 1: I'm being productive and clearing things off my plate. But 286 00:15:33,756 --> 00:15:36,276 Speaker 1: Ashley's research has shown that it's taking more of a 287 00:15:36,316 --> 00:15:37,956 Speaker 1: toll on me than I realize. 288 00:15:38,236 --> 00:15:41,356 Speaker 3: These feelings of time stress is time famine comes at 289 00:15:41,356 --> 00:15:44,396 Speaker 3: a cost of happiness. In some Gallop World poll data 290 00:15:44,436 --> 00:15:47,676 Speaker 3: that we analyze with two point five million Americans, we 291 00:15:47,796 --> 00:15:51,676 Speaker 3: found that this feeling of time famine had a worse 292 00:15:51,716 --> 00:15:55,756 Speaker 3: impact on happiness than being unemployed. So it seems to 293 00:15:55,796 --> 00:15:58,756 Speaker 3: have dramatic consequences for a subjective well being. 294 00:15:59,156 --> 00:16:02,236 Speaker 1: The problem, though, is that people don't realize the consequences 295 00:16:02,236 --> 00:16:05,356 Speaker 1: of time poverty are so great, and so we constantly 296 00:16:05,396 --> 00:16:09,036 Speaker 1: make individual choices that make our time famine even worse. 297 00:16:09,516 --> 00:16:12,836 Speaker 3: People who have more job flexibility, more paid vacations in 298 00:16:12,876 --> 00:16:16,836 Speaker 3: their workplace, are happier with their jobs, are more satisfied 299 00:16:16,836 --> 00:16:18,916 Speaker 3: and less likely to leave. But when you ask people 300 00:16:18,956 --> 00:16:21,356 Speaker 3: would you rather have job A and Job A makes 301 00:16:21,396 --> 00:16:23,876 Speaker 3: more salary or a job B and job B has 302 00:16:23,996 --> 00:16:26,436 Speaker 3: more paid vacation and less salary, people always go. 303 00:16:26,436 --> 00:16:26,996 Speaker 2: For job A. 304 00:16:27,556 --> 00:16:29,756 Speaker 1: If you've listened to other episodes of the Happiness Lab, 305 00:16:30,236 --> 00:16:32,796 Speaker 1: you know that many of us equate happiness with having 306 00:16:32,796 --> 00:16:35,796 Speaker 1: more money, which means that most of us want to 307 00:16:35,876 --> 00:16:38,716 Speaker 1: work more and more in order to earn more and more. 308 00:16:39,596 --> 00:16:41,756 Speaker 1: But that trade off of giving up time for money 309 00:16:42,116 --> 00:16:45,476 Speaker 1: winds up resulting in less and less time affluence, which 310 00:16:45,516 --> 00:16:49,716 Speaker 1: often means less and less happiness. It's a pretty stupid strategy, 311 00:16:50,236 --> 00:16:52,436 Speaker 1: but it's also one that Ashley has found many of 312 00:16:52,516 --> 00:16:54,316 Speaker 1: us employ all the time. 313 00:16:54,796 --> 00:16:57,716 Speaker 3: We think that prioritizing money and working a lot is 314 00:16:57,716 --> 00:17:00,636 Speaker 3: a status symbol, so we think if we seem really busy, 315 00:17:00,716 --> 00:17:03,196 Speaker 3: that's going to confer us higher status, and it's one 316 00:17:03,196 --> 00:17:05,476 Speaker 3: of the reasons that we don't focus on time take 317 00:17:05,516 --> 00:17:08,636 Speaker 3: paid vacation, and instead focus a lot on working. 318 00:17:09,236 --> 00:17:12,596 Speaker 1: The connection between busyness and status means that even people 319 00:17:12,636 --> 00:17:14,716 Speaker 1: who have the money to buy a little free time 320 00:17:15,116 --> 00:17:16,396 Speaker 1: often choose not to do so. 321 00:17:16,796 --> 00:17:19,476 Speaker 3: Even some of the wealthiest people We've studied people with 322 00:17:19,756 --> 00:17:23,836 Speaker 3: two million dollars sitting in the bank are still focusing 323 00:17:23,916 --> 00:17:25,436 Speaker 3: on money at the expense of time. 324 00:17:25,716 --> 00:17:28,516 Speaker 1: Ashley's also found that as we feel our days getting 325 00:17:28,516 --> 00:17:31,276 Speaker 1: fuller and fuller, we don't make time for activities that 326 00:17:31,276 --> 00:17:34,796 Speaker 1: can reduce our stress, like hanging out with friends or 327 00:17:34,796 --> 00:17:35,596 Speaker 1: making new ones. 328 00:17:35,996 --> 00:17:39,636 Speaker 3: We have a paper showing that even just this general 329 00:17:39,636 --> 00:17:44,036 Speaker 3: prioritization of money over time means that we're less likely 330 00:17:44,156 --> 00:17:47,076 Speaker 3: to interact with a peer. So we spend eighteen percent 331 00:17:47,156 --> 00:17:50,076 Speaker 3: less time interacting, and we know that these small social 332 00:17:50,076 --> 00:17:51,996 Speaker 3: moments are some of the happiest in our day. 333 00:17:52,276 --> 00:17:56,276 Speaker 1: These results got me thinking about why I'm so busy. Ironically, 334 00:17:56,476 --> 00:17:59,356 Speaker 1: it's not because I'm focused on money or status. It's 335 00:17:59,356 --> 00:18:02,676 Speaker 1: because I'm focused on people. I wind up saying yes 336 00:18:02,676 --> 00:18:05,356 Speaker 1: to too many things because I don't want to disappoint anyone, 337 00:18:06,036 --> 00:18:08,796 Speaker 1: either my colleagues, or my students or even you, dear 338 00:18:08,836 --> 00:18:09,796 Speaker 1: pod gaest listener. 339 00:18:10,476 --> 00:18:11,396 Speaker 2: But putting too much. 340 00:18:11,276 --> 00:18:14,356 Speaker 1: Stuff on my plate means becoming even more time famished. 341 00:18:14,996 --> 00:18:17,716 Speaker 1: I'm seeing lots of people, sure, but am I really 342 00:18:17,756 --> 00:18:20,716 Speaker 1: spending any quality time with any of them? I explain 343 00:18:20,796 --> 00:18:23,956 Speaker 1: this jumble of feelings to Ashley. I was surprised that 344 00:18:23,996 --> 00:18:26,756 Speaker 1: my hero was experiencing pretty much the same thing. 345 00:18:27,236 --> 00:18:31,396 Speaker 3: You're tunneling. You're just literally it feels like survival. I'm 346 00:18:31,436 --> 00:18:34,156 Speaker 3: having this day to day. I just taught to classes 347 00:18:34,196 --> 00:18:36,996 Speaker 3: and had two hours of office hours. All I'm thinking 348 00:18:37,036 --> 00:18:39,236 Speaker 3: about is when am I going to drink water? When 349 00:18:39,356 --> 00:18:42,236 Speaker 3: is my next nap? I don't have the cognitive resources 350 00:18:42,276 --> 00:18:44,516 Speaker 3: to also think about how am I going to connect 351 00:18:44,516 --> 00:18:46,356 Speaker 3: with a friend who hasn't been doing very well. 352 00:18:48,436 --> 00:18:51,716 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen seventies, researchers John Darley and Daniel 353 00:18:51,756 --> 00:18:55,716 Speaker 1: Batson ran a test to see why people help others. 354 00:18:55,996 --> 00:18:59,076 Speaker 1: Was being nice a function of a person's personality or 355 00:18:59,116 --> 00:19:02,396 Speaker 1: did it depend on the situation. To test these questions, 356 00:19:02,636 --> 00:19:06,116 Speaker 1: they chose a population known for being do gooders, students 357 00:19:06,156 --> 00:19:09,636 Speaker 1: at the Princeton Theological Seminary. Darley and bats and figured 358 00:19:09,676 --> 00:19:12,596 Speaker 1: that students training to be priests were probably prone to 359 00:19:12,636 --> 00:19:15,236 Speaker 1: being nice to other people, and so the researchers told 360 00:19:15,276 --> 00:19:18,196 Speaker 1: these subjects that they needed to deliver a public sermon 361 00:19:18,396 --> 00:19:22,316 Speaker 1: about Jesus's story of the Good Samaritan. In this parable, 362 00:19:22,436 --> 00:19:24,836 Speaker 1: a man is beaten, robbed, and left unconscious on the 363 00:19:24,836 --> 00:19:29,236 Speaker 1: street Several people, including a priest, passed by without stopping, 364 00:19:29,676 --> 00:19:33,196 Speaker 1: but one person, the Good Samaritan, took pity on the victim. 365 00:19:33,556 --> 00:19:35,396 Speaker 1: He helped the man up and even brought him to 366 00:19:35,476 --> 00:19:39,316 Speaker 1: an inn to eat and rest. The Samaritan, Jesus explains, 367 00:19:39,556 --> 00:19:41,956 Speaker 1: is the guy we're all supposed to emulate. He's the 368 00:19:41,996 --> 00:19:45,436 Speaker 1: one that's going to heaven. The seminary students all knew 369 00:19:45,436 --> 00:19:47,836 Speaker 1: the tale well, so having to give a sermon on 370 00:19:47,876 --> 00:19:51,716 Speaker 1: that topic should have been mildly stressful but relatively straightforward, 371 00:19:52,596 --> 00:19:55,796 Speaker 1: and that's when Darlean Batson up the stakes. All of 372 00:19:55,836 --> 00:19:58,476 Speaker 1: the students had to head across campus to another building 373 00:19:58,556 --> 00:20:01,156 Speaker 1: to give the talk. One group was told that their 374 00:20:01,196 --> 00:20:03,636 Speaker 1: sermon would happen later that day, so they had plenty 375 00:20:03,676 --> 00:20:06,556 Speaker 1: of time to get there. A second group was told 376 00:20:06,596 --> 00:20:08,636 Speaker 1: that they'd make it in time, but only as they 377 00:20:08,636 --> 00:20:11,836 Speaker 1: set off an immediately. But a third group was told 378 00:20:12,076 --> 00:20:14,996 Speaker 1: that they were already late. They needed to sprint over 379 00:20:15,036 --> 00:20:18,516 Speaker 1: there right away, and that's when Darlean Batson had a 380 00:20:18,516 --> 00:20:22,476 Speaker 1: surprise for the men. They basically staged an experimental version 381 00:20:22,516 --> 00:20:25,756 Speaker 1: of the Good Samaritan story. They hired an actor to 382 00:20:25,796 --> 00:20:28,356 Speaker 1: pretend to be injured on the ground who was blocking 383 00:20:28,436 --> 00:20:31,076 Speaker 1: a narrow part of the route. The students would literally 384 00:20:31,116 --> 00:20:34,036 Speaker 1: have to physically step over the actor's writhing body in 385 00:20:34,116 --> 00:20:36,716 Speaker 1: order to make it past. So what did a little 386 00:20:36,716 --> 00:20:39,796 Speaker 1: time famine due to the student's willingness to help. The 387 00:20:39,876 --> 00:20:43,556 Speaker 1: results were really striking. Sixty three percent of the students 388 00:20:43,596 --> 00:20:46,396 Speaker 1: who had time to spare stopped to help the hurt stranger, 389 00:20:47,076 --> 00:20:50,756 Speaker 1: which honestly is already pretty bad. That means over a 390 00:20:50,796 --> 00:20:54,036 Speaker 1: third of trainee priests basically stepped over a guy lying 391 00:20:54,076 --> 00:20:56,996 Speaker 1: hurt on the street. But what happened when subjects were 392 00:20:57,036 --> 00:21:00,076 Speaker 1: in a mad hurry. Only ten percent of them stopped 393 00:21:00,076 --> 00:21:04,116 Speaker 1: to help. Ninety percent of the subjects completely ignored an 394 00:21:04,156 --> 00:21:07,276 Speaker 1: obviously injured person on the street because they were rushing 395 00:21:07,276 --> 00:21:09,956 Speaker 1: to give a sermon about how Gus said you should 396 00:21:09,956 --> 00:21:13,076 Speaker 1: stop to help injured people on the street. When we're 397 00:21:13,116 --> 00:21:15,996 Speaker 1: time famished, we become crappy people. 398 00:21:16,916 --> 00:21:19,716 Speaker 3: When people are thinking about the economic value of their time, 399 00:21:19,996 --> 00:21:22,916 Speaker 3: when they're thinking about being hyper efficient with every second, 400 00:21:23,356 --> 00:21:26,196 Speaker 3: this comes at a cost of our willingness to take 401 00:21:26,316 --> 00:21:29,676 Speaker 3: time out of our day to help others, to volunteer 402 00:21:30,156 --> 00:21:33,196 Speaker 3: to do something as simple as recycle a piece of 403 00:21:33,196 --> 00:21:36,076 Speaker 3: scrap paper in the lab, something that takes ten fifteen 404 00:21:36,116 --> 00:21:36,876 Speaker 3: seconds to do. 405 00:21:37,156 --> 00:21:40,356 Speaker 1: Ashley actually has experimental data to back up this last point. 406 00:21:41,036 --> 00:21:43,156 Speaker 1: She had students cut up sheets of paper for a 407 00:21:43,196 --> 00:21:46,356 Speaker 1: construction project. She told them they could either throw their 408 00:21:46,356 --> 00:21:49,116 Speaker 1: scraps away in a nearby trash can or walk a 409 00:21:49,116 --> 00:21:52,116 Speaker 1: few feet outside the room to a recycling bin. In 410 00:21:52,196 --> 00:21:55,156 Speaker 1: this first control condition, forty one percent of the students 411 00:21:55,196 --> 00:21:59,596 Speaker 1: opted to recycle. But Ashley also tested another experimental group 412 00:22:00,036 --> 00:22:02,796 Speaker 1: in which she first had subjects write down how many 413 00:22:02,796 --> 00:22:05,876 Speaker 1: hours they expect it to work after graduation and then 414 00:22:05,956 --> 00:22:10,276 Speaker 1: calculate their hourly pay rate happ into recycling. In this 415 00:22:10,396 --> 00:22:14,716 Speaker 1: experimental group, only twelve percent made the extra effort required. 416 00:22:15,276 --> 00:22:18,716 Speaker 1: Policymakers should take note here. Have you ever considered that 417 00:22:18,756 --> 00:22:22,596 Speaker 1: giving people more time will help them become better, greener citizens. 418 00:22:22,876 --> 00:22:25,116 Speaker 3: What we really need to do is to solve time 419 00:22:25,156 --> 00:22:28,996 Speaker 3: poverty so that people can have more cognitive resources and 420 00:22:29,116 --> 00:22:32,316 Speaker 3: also just a more outward focus so that we're not 421 00:22:32,356 --> 00:22:34,636 Speaker 3: just simply trying to solve our own time scarcity and 422 00:22:34,676 --> 00:22:36,556 Speaker 3: get from point eight to point B in our lives 423 00:22:36,756 --> 00:22:39,476 Speaker 3: where we're able to have these self transcendent values and 424 00:22:39,516 --> 00:22:42,276 Speaker 3: think about how can I use my time to benefit others. 425 00:22:42,476 --> 00:22:46,356 Speaker 1: Which raises a big question, how can we fight time poverty? 426 00:22:46,916 --> 00:22:49,236 Speaker 1: What can people like me do to feel a little 427 00:22:49,236 --> 00:22:53,076 Speaker 1: more time affluent. We'll tackle those important questions when the 428 00:22:53,116 --> 00:22:54,836 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab returns in a moment. 429 00:23:12,716 --> 00:23:14,916 Speaker 2: I would get up at eight with the kids or 430 00:23:14,956 --> 00:23:17,236 Speaker 2: seven point thirty. Then I would sit down in my 431 00:23:17,316 --> 00:23:20,996 Speaker 2: study at nine o'clock and I wouldn't leave until one pm. 432 00:23:21,396 --> 00:23:24,036 Speaker 2: So I would do four straight hours of work and 433 00:23:24,076 --> 00:23:24,516 Speaker 2: that was it. 434 00:23:25,116 --> 00:23:28,836 Speaker 1: Welcome to the typical day of time affluence Guru Tom Hodgkinson. 435 00:23:29,516 --> 00:23:32,036 Speaker 1: I was struck that Tom's day involved both less in 436 00:23:32,236 --> 00:23:35,156 Speaker 1: more idling than I'd expected, if that makes sense. 437 00:23:35,356 --> 00:23:39,876 Speaker 2: After lunch, I would go into the garden, go for walk, sleep, 438 00:23:40,396 --> 00:23:42,996 Speaker 2: My children would come back from school with the dinner. 439 00:23:43,156 --> 00:23:45,596 Speaker 2: I'd have a couple of beers and read books in 440 00:23:45,596 --> 00:23:47,876 Speaker 2: the evening, go to bed sort of fairly early ten 441 00:23:47,956 --> 00:23:50,116 Speaker 2: or eleven. That was great, And you know, that was 442 00:23:50,156 --> 00:23:53,676 Speaker 2: a four hour working down. Often took Fridays off for 443 00:23:53,716 --> 00:23:55,996 Speaker 2: trips and so on, so that was lovely. 444 00:23:56,476 --> 00:23:59,236 Speaker 1: Tom is super time affluent, but he isn't some bum 445 00:23:59,316 --> 00:24:02,716 Speaker 1: who never gets anything done. He's an incredibly accomplished writer 446 00:24:03,036 --> 00:24:06,396 Speaker 1: with six best selling books, and that doesn't even include 447 00:24:06,436 --> 00:24:07,636 Speaker 1: his ukule Ally handbook. 448 00:24:08,156 --> 00:24:09,636 Speaker 2: The problem with being an i'd are actually that you 449 00:24:09,676 --> 00:24:11,436 Speaker 2: can end up working quite hard. I mean, I get 450 00:24:11,476 --> 00:24:13,876 Speaker 2: a lot of criticism from our readers saying, well, you 451 00:24:13,916 --> 00:24:16,596 Speaker 2: seem to work quite hard. Tom, You're quite productive. And 452 00:24:16,636 --> 00:24:18,636 Speaker 2: I think that's because you know, you give yourself lots 453 00:24:18,636 --> 00:24:21,076 Speaker 2: of thinking time, and then you start having creative ideas 454 00:24:21,076 --> 00:24:22,996 Speaker 2: and then you want to carry them out, and you 455 00:24:23,036 --> 00:24:24,996 Speaker 2: know it takes some work to actually make them happen. 456 00:24:25,156 --> 00:24:28,236 Speaker 1: And so I asked Tom for some advice, practical tips 457 00:24:28,316 --> 00:24:30,556 Speaker 1: that would actually work with my busy professor. 458 00:24:30,596 --> 00:24:34,676 Speaker 2: Lifestyle practical tips, Okay, please, you know, take an hour 459 00:24:34,716 --> 00:24:36,876 Speaker 2: off for lunch and talk to people. 460 00:24:37,476 --> 00:24:40,356 Speaker 1: I sheepishly admitted to Tom that I pretty rarely take a 461 00:24:40,436 --> 00:24:42,636 Speaker 1: lunch break that doesn't involve checking my email. 462 00:24:42,756 --> 00:24:46,076 Speaker 2: Over work can drag you back, because take your lunch break. 463 00:24:45,956 --> 00:24:49,916 Speaker 1: A full, uninterrupted meal break with proper conversation already was 464 00:24:49,916 --> 00:24:52,836 Speaker 1: seeming like the stuff of fantasy, but then Tom up 465 00:24:52,836 --> 00:24:55,716 Speaker 1: the ante with an even more indulgent afternoon activity. 466 00:24:55,796 --> 00:24:58,436 Speaker 2: Ideally, have a short nap after lunch. I mean I 467 00:24:58,436 --> 00:25:00,476 Speaker 2: personally find that time between two and four I mean, 468 00:25:00,516 --> 00:25:02,996 Speaker 2: I'm completely dead. I actually get quite depressed. I can't think. 469 00:25:03,036 --> 00:25:05,436 Speaker 2: I'm so tired, and then I wake up again at 470 00:25:05,476 --> 00:25:07,476 Speaker 2: four two hours Yester. 471 00:25:08,116 --> 00:25:12,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, that' sickly sounds kind of impossible for me. Tom 472 00:25:12,116 --> 00:25:13,836 Speaker 1: was horrified when he learned that I had a flight 473 00:25:13,916 --> 00:25:16,356 Speaker 1: later that day and that I planned to spend most 474 00:25:16,396 --> 00:25:17,556 Speaker 1: of that travel time working. 475 00:25:17,916 --> 00:25:20,156 Speaker 2: Travel time is a gift. In the old days, you 476 00:25:20,156 --> 00:25:23,116 Speaker 2: couldn't work. We didn't have Wi Fi and stuff, and 477 00:25:23,156 --> 00:25:25,156 Speaker 2: so it was a lovely opportunity to get to gaze 478 00:25:25,156 --> 00:25:28,636 Speaker 2: out the window. But you could still do that planes, trains, automobiles, 479 00:25:28,716 --> 00:25:31,596 Speaker 2: you know, sit in the back, sear out the window, 480 00:25:31,836 --> 00:25:35,356 Speaker 2: unplug you know, or read a book, a real actual book, 481 00:25:35,636 --> 00:25:39,316 Speaker 2: and sleep and days. Even walking along the road is 482 00:25:39,316 --> 00:25:41,396 Speaker 2: supposed to be a sort of self improving activity because 483 00:25:41,436 --> 00:25:43,596 Speaker 2: you put your headphones on and plug into some kind 484 00:25:43,596 --> 00:25:48,356 Speaker 2: of inspirational podcast. What I mean, Okay, this is a 485 00:25:48,356 --> 00:25:49,876 Speaker 2: good podcast to listen to. Your want. 486 00:25:50,036 --> 00:25:54,236 Speaker 1: Tom's point isn't to cancel your Happiness Lab subscription, like, seriously, 487 00:25:54,396 --> 00:25:57,156 Speaker 1: don't do that. Tom's point is just that we need 488 00:25:57,196 --> 00:25:59,316 Speaker 1: to find some time when it feels like we're not 489 00:25:59,436 --> 00:26:01,836 Speaker 1: working or desperately trying to cramp things in. 490 00:26:02,036 --> 00:26:04,996 Speaker 2: Give a gift to yourself of that time. It's completely free, 491 00:26:05,036 --> 00:26:09,076 Speaker 2: it doesn't cost anything. It could really have incalculable benefit 492 00:26:09,196 --> 00:26:10,036 Speaker 2: feel mental health. 493 00:26:10,396 --> 00:26:13,916 Speaker 1: I was so thankful to hear Tom's suggestions, but realistically 494 00:26:14,556 --> 00:26:16,956 Speaker 1: I wasn't totally sure his advice was going to work 495 00:26:17,076 --> 00:26:20,236 Speaker 1: for my level of time famine. I mean, I can 496 00:26:20,236 --> 00:26:23,236 Speaker 1: show you for longer email free lunches, but napping for 497 00:26:23,316 --> 00:26:26,116 Speaker 1: hours a day is not really practical for my situation. 498 00:26:27,196 --> 00:26:30,156 Speaker 1: And if I'm being honest, it's also unlikely that I'll 499 00:26:30,196 --> 00:26:32,916 Speaker 1: leave my laptop totally switched off on my next flight. 500 00:26:33,836 --> 00:26:36,596 Speaker 1: I started to worry that Tom's recommendations were a bit 501 00:26:36,636 --> 00:26:39,796 Speaker 1: too advance from my level of time famine. I needed 502 00:26:39,836 --> 00:26:42,676 Speaker 1: to start with some beginner tips, sort of a time 503 00:26:42,716 --> 00:26:45,476 Speaker 1: affluence for dummies kind of thing. So I turned to 504 00:26:45,516 --> 00:26:49,276 Speaker 1: my other hero, Ashley Willins. She's an academic just like me, 505 00:26:49,916 --> 00:26:52,796 Speaker 1: so I figured that she might have some more applicable advice. 506 00:26:54,116 --> 00:26:56,316 Speaker 1: As usual, I was in a rush to get straight 507 00:26:56,396 --> 00:26:59,796 Speaker 1: to the point. So you're super busy Harvard professors. 508 00:26:59,676 --> 00:27:02,676 Speaker 2: Who teaches about time. I just feels a little bit ironic. 509 00:27:02,396 --> 00:27:04,756 Speaker 3: But my life sometimes feels very ironic. 510 00:27:04,796 --> 00:27:07,636 Speaker 1: Yes, So how are you actually putting this stuff into 511 00:27:07,676 --> 00:27:08,756 Speaker 1: effect in your own life. 512 00:27:09,996 --> 00:27:13,276 Speaker 3: I'm trying and sometimes failing. Yeah, I feel like I'm 513 00:27:13,276 --> 00:27:17,036 Speaker 3: grasping at straws sometimes to try to keep it all together. 514 00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:20,236 Speaker 1: It wasn't exactly the guru level of time mastery I 515 00:27:20,276 --> 00:27:23,156 Speaker 1: was hoping for, but I also admired Ashley's honesty. 516 00:27:23,436 --> 00:27:25,996 Speaker 3: One thing that I did structurally in my life is 517 00:27:26,116 --> 00:27:29,556 Speaker 3: I cut my commute time to basically zero. I pay 518 00:27:29,596 --> 00:27:31,676 Speaker 3: a lot of money in rent, but I can walk 519 00:27:31,676 --> 00:27:35,556 Speaker 3: to the office. So I'm not only buying myself time 520 00:27:35,636 --> 00:27:37,676 Speaker 3: each and every day, but I can also spend that 521 00:27:37,716 --> 00:27:40,556 Speaker 3: time and ways that are good for happiness, like walking, 522 00:27:41,036 --> 00:27:43,716 Speaker 3: enjoying the scenery. I take in a lot of sunrises 523 00:27:43,756 --> 00:27:46,556 Speaker 3: walking across the bridge to work, and I think that's 524 00:27:46,556 --> 00:27:49,356 Speaker 3: one thing that I've done that I've noticed has dramatically 525 00:27:49,396 --> 00:27:50,956 Speaker 3: improved the quality of my life. 526 00:27:51,236 --> 00:27:54,116 Speaker 1: So Ashley exchanges money in the form of rent for 527 00:27:54,236 --> 00:27:57,196 Speaker 1: less time wasted on adul commute. She also uses her 528 00:27:57,196 --> 00:27:59,196 Speaker 1: other expenditures in the same way. 529 00:27:59,156 --> 00:28:01,356 Speaker 3: Like house cleaning, grocery delivery. 530 00:28:01,476 --> 00:28:04,196 Speaker 1: It turns out the allocating more of your available budget 531 00:28:04,196 --> 00:28:08,236 Speaker 1: to these services can substantially increase your time affluence if. 532 00:28:08,116 --> 00:28:10,836 Speaker 3: You spend money in a tip to outsource dislike task 533 00:28:10,876 --> 00:28:13,636 Speaker 3: to others, therefore buying back some of your time or 534 00:28:13,676 --> 00:28:16,796 Speaker 3: at least buying more positive moments. We see that that 535 00:28:17,076 --> 00:28:19,476 Speaker 3: is a good predictor of happiness for people all across 536 00:28:19,476 --> 00:28:22,196 Speaker 3: the income spectrum, the richest people that we've studied, people 537 00:28:22,196 --> 00:28:24,676 Speaker 3: living at or even slightly below the poverty line. 538 00:28:24,916 --> 00:28:27,796 Speaker 1: Paying someone to do your disliked tasks can also provide 539 00:28:27,836 --> 00:28:29,636 Speaker 1: a much needed boost to your social life. 540 00:28:29,676 --> 00:28:32,236 Speaker 3: When you outsource something you don't like, you not only 541 00:28:32,316 --> 00:28:34,356 Speaker 3: get to spend more time with people you care about, 542 00:28:34,396 --> 00:28:36,636 Speaker 3: but you're less thinking about all these other things you 543 00:28:36,716 --> 00:28:39,396 Speaker 3: have to do while you're socializing, and so it buys 544 00:28:39,436 --> 00:28:42,276 Speaker 3: us out of some of this dread, this anticipation of 545 00:28:42,356 --> 00:28:45,316 Speaker 3: having to come home from a nice social event on 546 00:28:45,356 --> 00:28:47,476 Speaker 3: the weekend and have a million chores to do before 547 00:28:47,476 --> 00:28:50,196 Speaker 3: the work week starts. And we've also started looking at 548 00:28:50,276 --> 00:28:54,396 Speaker 3: the effects of time saving services house cleaning, someone to 549 00:28:54,396 --> 00:28:57,476 Speaker 3: mow your lawn on relationship satisfaction, and we have some 550 00:28:57,876 --> 00:29:01,916 Speaker 3: findings suggesting that couples who make a concerted effort to 551 00:29:01,996 --> 00:29:06,916 Speaker 3: outsource in a typical month experience greater relationship satisfaction because 552 00:29:06,916 --> 00:29:10,756 Speaker 3: they're less negatively impacted by daily stress, and that effect 553 00:29:11,036 --> 00:29:15,116 Speaker 3: on relationship satisfaction is just about as good as having 554 00:29:15,116 --> 00:29:16,716 Speaker 3: a partner who's a really good listener. 555 00:29:17,716 --> 00:29:19,836 Speaker 1: All this sounds great, but I bet some of you 556 00:29:19,876 --> 00:29:22,276 Speaker 1: are thinking the same thing I was. Is this a 557 00:29:22,276 --> 00:29:25,276 Speaker 1: strategy everyone can use? Or is this just for wealthy 558 00:29:25,276 --> 00:29:27,516 Speaker 1: Harvard professors who can afford a house cleaner? 559 00:29:27,676 --> 00:29:28,796 Speaker 2: I get this question a lot. 560 00:29:28,956 --> 00:29:31,596 Speaker 3: Isn't this just for rich people? Most of us listening 561 00:29:31,596 --> 00:29:34,516 Speaker 3: at least are lucky enough to have some discretionary income 562 00:29:34,516 --> 00:29:37,116 Speaker 3: at our disposal. So then we want to start thinking, well, 563 00:29:37,156 --> 00:29:39,756 Speaker 3: five one hundred dollars a month, two hundred dollars a month, 564 00:29:39,756 --> 00:29:42,316 Speaker 3: three hundred dollars a month, how can I start thinking 565 00:29:42,396 --> 00:29:45,316 Speaker 3: about spending that money in a way that might best 566 00:29:45,316 --> 00:29:47,516 Speaker 3: promote my happiness? And there are small things that we 567 00:29:47,556 --> 00:29:50,436 Speaker 3: can all do around the margins. One example might be 568 00:29:50,716 --> 00:29:54,036 Speaker 3: hire the neighbor's kid to mow your lawn. That might 569 00:29:54,076 --> 00:29:57,916 Speaker 3: not cost very much money. Getting takeout takeout can be 570 00:29:58,036 --> 00:30:01,396 Speaker 3: one way of saving time, but interestingly, we often don't 571 00:30:01,396 --> 00:30:04,316 Speaker 3: think about takeout in that way. So we show in 572 00:30:04,356 --> 00:30:06,756 Speaker 3: some of our studies that some of the happiness benefit 573 00:30:06,836 --> 00:30:08,796 Speaker 3: of these time saving purchases that we make on a 574 00:30:08,836 --> 00:30:12,676 Speaker 3: regular basis. Some of that benefit is actually from just 575 00:30:12,756 --> 00:30:15,756 Speaker 3: thinking that you're saving time and then spending that time 576 00:30:15,796 --> 00:30:18,836 Speaker 3: in a more deliberate way. So you could, even if 577 00:30:18,876 --> 00:30:20,676 Speaker 3: you don't want to change the way that you're spending, 578 00:30:21,156 --> 00:30:23,076 Speaker 3: sit down and look at your purchases that you make 579 00:30:23,116 --> 00:30:25,876 Speaker 3: in a typical month and say, hey, when I made 580 00:30:25,916 --> 00:30:28,676 Speaker 3: that takeout purchase, I actually was saving time that I 581 00:30:28,716 --> 00:30:31,716 Speaker 3: wasn't spending on cooking. What did I do with that time? 582 00:30:32,236 --> 00:30:35,316 Speaker 3: And next week when I buy that fast food, could 583 00:30:35,316 --> 00:30:37,076 Speaker 3: I be spending that time I would have spent cooking 584 00:30:37,076 --> 00:30:39,516 Speaker 3: in a better way. So part of the benefit is 585 00:30:39,596 --> 00:30:42,596 Speaker 3: just removing negative tasks that you don't like. And part 586 00:30:42,596 --> 00:30:45,516 Speaker 3: of the benefit of time saving is being more deliberate 587 00:30:45,596 --> 00:30:47,436 Speaker 3: with the free time that you've gained. 588 00:30:49,076 --> 00:30:51,076 Speaker 1: The idea of being more deliberate with how we think 589 00:30:51,116 --> 00:30:54,716 Speaker 1: about our time is critical. Remember, time affluence isn't the 590 00:30:54,796 --> 00:30:57,796 Speaker 1: objective amount of free time you have, the actual number 591 00:30:57,796 --> 00:31:00,996 Speaker 1: of open blocks in your calendar. It's your subjective sense 592 00:31:01,116 --> 00:31:03,436 Speaker 1: that you have some free time, and that means you 593 00:31:03,436 --> 00:31:05,716 Speaker 1: can do a lot to boost your sense of time affluence. 594 00:31:06,236 --> 00:31:08,756 Speaker 1: Even if in reality you can't really open up that 595 00:31:08,836 --> 00:31:12,156 Speaker 1: much actual free time. It's just the sense of giving 596 00:31:12,196 --> 00:31:14,996 Speaker 1: yourself a bit of a break that makes all the difference, 597 00:31:15,596 --> 00:31:18,356 Speaker 1: even if the amount of time you actually gain is small. 598 00:31:19,316 --> 00:31:21,756 Speaker 1: I saw this first hand in my Happiness class, when 599 00:31:21,756 --> 00:31:24,076 Speaker 1: I first introduced my Yale students to the concept of 600 00:31:24,116 --> 00:31:28,636 Speaker 1: time affluence. With hard classes, demanding extracurriculars, and an intense 601 00:31:28,636 --> 00:31:32,756 Speaker 1: social life, Yale students feel incredibly time famished pretty much 602 00:31:32,796 --> 00:31:35,156 Speaker 1: all the time, so I decided to give them a 603 00:31:35,156 --> 00:31:37,996 Speaker 1: booster shot of time affluents by surprising them with a 604 00:31:38,036 --> 00:31:41,916 Speaker 1: canceled class one spring day. Students came to lecture expecting 605 00:31:41,956 --> 00:31:43,876 Speaker 1: to be in class for an hour and fifteen minutes, 606 00:31:44,516 --> 00:31:46,836 Speaker 1: but when they arrived, my teaching assistants were handing out 607 00:31:46,876 --> 00:31:49,716 Speaker 1: flyers explaining that I was giving students a bit of 608 00:31:49,756 --> 00:31:53,556 Speaker 1: time affluence by canceling class that day. The students were 609 00:31:53,556 --> 00:31:56,636 Speaker 1: ecstatic they finally had a bit of free time. Some 610 00:31:56,716 --> 00:31:59,996 Speaker 1: even started screaming and jumping up and down. Others just 611 00:31:59,996 --> 00:32:04,596 Speaker 1: seemed incredibly relieved. One woman even burst into tears, announcing 612 00:32:04,636 --> 00:32:07,036 Speaker 1: it was the first free hour she's had all semester. 613 00:32:08,156 --> 00:32:11,756 Speaker 1: But my students joy demonstrates this important feature of time affluence. 614 00:32:12,316 --> 00:32:15,236 Speaker 1: It doesn't take all that much to feel incredibly good. 615 00:32:16,076 --> 00:32:18,756 Speaker 1: My yalies were only given an hour and fifteen minutes free, 616 00:32:19,276 --> 00:32:22,236 Speaker 1: but at the time it felt like years. Many of 617 00:32:22,276 --> 00:32:24,796 Speaker 1: them even used that free hour to do something really fun. 618 00:32:25,316 --> 00:32:27,716 Speaker 1: They hung out with friends overbubble tees or went for 619 00:32:27,756 --> 00:32:30,436 Speaker 1: a short hike, which shows one of the most important 620 00:32:30,436 --> 00:32:33,716 Speaker 1: features of using our time affluents well. In the rare 621 00:32:33,756 --> 00:32:36,196 Speaker 1: cases when we get free time, we need to use 622 00:32:36,236 --> 00:32:40,396 Speaker 1: it wisely. This is something I really struggle with because 623 00:32:40,436 --> 00:32:42,676 Speaker 1: I do get little blasts of free time confetti here 624 00:32:42,716 --> 00:32:45,556 Speaker 1: and there. There are lots of unexpected changes as an 625 00:32:45,596 --> 00:32:49,356 Speaker 1: academic meetings, canceled talks that wrap up earlier than predicted, 626 00:32:49,556 --> 00:32:52,796 Speaker 1: appointments with people who never show. I usually use those 627 00:32:52,796 --> 00:32:55,236 Speaker 1: free moments to do a quick social media check or 628 00:32:55,236 --> 00:32:58,276 Speaker 1: dig into my email, but Ashley argues that I should 629 00:32:58,316 --> 00:33:01,556 Speaker 1: plan to use those little time windfalls a lot more effectively. 630 00:33:02,956 --> 00:33:05,716 Speaker 3: How can we start claiming back some of these windfalls, 631 00:33:05,796 --> 00:33:08,596 Speaker 3: to really think about them in this more deliberate way, 632 00:33:08,916 --> 00:33:12,036 Speaker 3: so that these small pockets of time that we do 633 00:33:12,356 --> 00:33:15,236 Speaker 3: receive in our everyday lives feel more like a gain 634 00:33:15,756 --> 00:33:18,476 Speaker 3: and therefore might be more likely to increase our happiness. 635 00:33:18,716 --> 00:33:20,676 Speaker 1: Have you done this in your own life? Are there 636 00:33:20,756 --> 00:33:22,916 Speaker 1: specific tips you use when you have a meeting canceled 637 00:33:23,036 --> 00:33:24,436 Speaker 1: or have a small time windfall? 638 00:33:24,676 --> 00:33:24,916 Speaker 2: Yeah? 639 00:33:24,956 --> 00:33:28,316 Speaker 3: So, I actually have started to keep a time wind 640 00:33:28,316 --> 00:33:31,756 Speaker 3: fall list of if I have small pockets of five 641 00:33:31,796 --> 00:33:34,916 Speaker 3: minutes and ten minutes, what are some life things, Not 642 00:33:35,036 --> 00:33:38,796 Speaker 3: work things, not emails. Those will always be there, But 643 00:33:38,916 --> 00:33:41,396 Speaker 3: some small positive life things that I can do with 644 00:33:41,436 --> 00:33:45,076 Speaker 3: those windfalls. Send a letter of gratitude, call my mom, 645 00:33:46,276 --> 00:33:48,276 Speaker 3: reach out to a friend from grad school I haven't 646 00:33:48,316 --> 00:33:50,236 Speaker 3: talked to in a while, And I write those in 647 00:33:50,276 --> 00:33:53,716 Speaker 3: my agenda. And I don't always get to all of them, 648 00:33:54,036 --> 00:33:56,036 Speaker 3: but I do get to some of them. And I 649 00:33:56,076 --> 00:33:58,716 Speaker 3: think that doing this research has made me a little 650 00:33:58,756 --> 00:34:02,196 Speaker 3: bit more strategic about not squandering the small moments that 651 00:34:02,236 --> 00:34:04,436 Speaker 3: all of us find ourselves with on a daily basis. 652 00:34:05,436 --> 00:34:08,916 Speaker 1: Making this episode hasn't completely cured my sense of time famine, 653 00:34:09,156 --> 00:34:11,796 Speaker 1: but it has helped a lot. I've started my own 654 00:34:11,836 --> 00:34:14,636 Speaker 1: time windfall list. I want to connect more with friends 655 00:34:14,676 --> 00:34:17,356 Speaker 1: I haven't seen in a while, and take more opportunities 656 00:34:17,396 --> 00:34:20,516 Speaker 1: to express gratitude to the people I care about. I 657 00:34:20,516 --> 00:34:22,956 Speaker 1: also want to take time to be more mindful, and 658 00:34:22,996 --> 00:34:24,476 Speaker 1: so I'm going to try to use some of those 659 00:34:24,516 --> 00:34:27,556 Speaker 1: free fifteen minute blocks for a quick meditation and some 660 00:34:27,596 --> 00:34:30,756 Speaker 1: deep breaths. And in honor of Tom, I've promise to 661 00:34:30,756 --> 00:34:32,996 Speaker 1: spend at least a few minutes gazing out the window 662 00:34:33,036 --> 00:34:35,476 Speaker 1: on my next flight. But most of all, making this 663 00:34:35,556 --> 00:34:38,116 Speaker 1: episode has caused me to realize that I'm not helping 664 00:34:38,196 --> 00:34:40,476 Speaker 1: the people I care about by packing my schedule to 665 00:34:40,516 --> 00:34:43,436 Speaker 1: the brim. Hearing the science has caused me to reflect 666 00:34:43,716 --> 00:34:46,636 Speaker 1: on the negative impact my time famine is having on 667 00:34:46,716 --> 00:34:49,676 Speaker 1: the people I care about most. It also made me 668 00:34:49,716 --> 00:34:51,796 Speaker 1: worry about the person I could become if I don't 669 00:34:51,796 --> 00:34:55,436 Speaker 1: carve out a bit more free time. So, Happiness Lab listeners, 670 00:34:55,836 --> 00:34:57,916 Speaker 1: I'm making a public commitment to all of you that 671 00:34:57,956 --> 00:35:01,076 Speaker 1: I plan to prioritize my own time affluence, and I 672 00:35:01,076 --> 00:35:04,236 Speaker 1: hope you will too. As I said before, you don't 673 00:35:04,276 --> 00:35:08,356 Speaker 1: need to unsubscribe from your favorite podcast, Seriously, don't do that. 674 00:35:09,356 --> 00:35:11,796 Speaker 1: Just making the most of small time windfalls can bump 675 00:35:11,836 --> 00:35:15,116 Speaker 1: up your mood, and maybe, just maybe it might even 676 00:35:15,156 --> 00:35:16,356 Speaker 1: make you a better person.