1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the short Stuff. I'm Josh, and 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: there's Chuck, and there's Jerry, and dats here and spirit 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: and this is short stuff, which should be spelled exactly 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: like it's spelled right now. Yeah, Should another simple spelling 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: movement come along, Chuck? 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, although they may drop an F. 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, although that could be stuff, but there 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: is no such word as stuff, so I guess it 9 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: wouldn't be a problem. 10 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, But that's what we're talking about. We're talking about 11 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 2: the idea that English is a really tough language to learn, 12 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 2: and that there have been many movements over the years 13 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 2: to simplify things and spell things out a little more phonetically. 14 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 2: And back in nineteen oh six, none other than Teddy Roosevelt, 15 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 2: who was president, got into this idea, and he was 16 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 2: a very very popular president who had some other very 17 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 2: famous people on board at the time as well. 18 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: Right Andrew Carnegie, Mark Twain, William James, the father of 19 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: psychology and named Supreme Court justice. Basically, a lot of 20 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: thinkers in America came together to basically put their might 21 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: behind this what was another progressive movement at the time, 22 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: and Teddy Roosevelt was an enthusiastic supporter of it, He 23 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: issued a what he later called an experiment, an executive 24 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: order to the printer of the United States, the official one, 25 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: and said, all federal documents from now on have to 26 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: be printed using the simplified spelling of these three hundred words, 27 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: and gave them a list. And it ended up not 28 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: going very well at all. 29 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this kind of just goes to show 30 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 2: you that you can be super super popular as a 31 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 2: public figure or as even a politician, and if you 32 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: come up with an idea that people think are dumb, 33 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: even back then, they turn on you pretty quickly. Because 34 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 2: people hated this idea. He was all over the newspapers 35 00:01:58,040 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: being made fun of all of a sudden. And this 36 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 2: is a guy got like a lot of great press, right. 37 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 2: He was in you know, political cartoons. It was one 38 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: where he was laying knocked out in a boxing ring 39 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 2: with a anthropomorpize dictionary had just knocked him out. And 40 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: Congress certainly didn't like it because they he had sidestepped 41 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: Congress with this executive order and they were not having it. 42 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: No, not at all, Like you said, he was mocked 43 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: for it, and his political opponents in Congress just jumped 44 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: all over this because he was a beloved president, like 45 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: you said, and there wasn't a lot that they could 46 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: use against him, and this was great. So because there 47 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: was an election coming up, He's like, Okay, I'm backing 48 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: off you guys win. We'll just stay with the dumb 49 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: rules of grammar and spelling that English has, and let's 50 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: talk about that a little bit. 51 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 2: You want to, Well, they actually even brought a bill 52 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 2: against him where they cited Websters like, they demanded that 53 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 2: all federal documents be written according to Webster's or other 54 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 2: generally accepted dictionaries of the English language, which is ironic 55 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 2: because Webster himself was a proponent of making spelling simpler 56 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 2: at one point, and it was also something I know 57 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 2: that we've talked about. Benjamin Franklin had also championed this 58 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 2: earlier in his career. 59 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and both Noah Webster and Benjamin Franklin had already 60 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: found out that people don't like the concept of simplifying 61 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: English for some reason, even though there's reason after reason 62 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: to do this. Chuck, you want to talk a little 63 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: bit about how English is kind of screwy. 64 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean, anyone who's ever learned the English 65 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 2: language knows that the spelling doesn't make a lot of 66 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: sense a lot of times, and the rules contradict one 67 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: another all the time. It's a tough language to learn. 68 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 2: And you can look no further than the final three 69 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: letters G H T at the end of words like 70 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 2: kought and though and draft and drought to know that 71 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: there's just doesn't seem to be any rise, rhyme or reason. 72 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: You know, if you learn English and learn how to 73 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: spell in English, you're basically just taught, like you just 74 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 2: got to memorize this stuff. There are no rules of 75 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: which are going to help. 76 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: You out exactly. And that is the reason why I 77 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: didn't realize this. But spelling bees are almost entirely an 78 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: American phenomenon. They're almost entirely in English speaking phenomenon because 79 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: it's so tricky to spell English words, and that even 80 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: countries that do hold spelling bees typically hold them as 81 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,679 Speaker 1: English spelling bees. Yeah, which is really saying something about 82 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 1: how difficult it is to remember all this stuff in 83 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: spelling the English language. 84 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, although to be fair, they're spelling, they're not spelling 85 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 2: things like draft, you know. 86 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: No, No, they're spelling anti disestablishmentarianism. 87 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that one's not too hard. 88 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: Actually no it's not, but it's the one that always 89 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: gets thrown out because it's fun to say. 90 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 2: The hard part for me would be, uh, doing it 91 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 2: in my brain. I would have to write it down, 92 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 2: I think Itily was a champion spelling bee. 93 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: Kid, as was my gal. 94 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they're both great spellers. I'm an okay speller, 95 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: but yeah, I would have to write it down. I 96 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: have a hard time doing that in my brain. 97 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, way hard. It's much harder to do it just 98 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 1: in your brain, for sure. I think you have to 99 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: be like a visual person to be able to kind 100 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: of see it in front of you too. That's got 101 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: to help. Yeah. The thing I think that I don't 102 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: know if we said it or not, but the group 103 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 1: with Andrew Carnegie and Mark Twain, they founded what was 104 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: known as the This is Official the Simplified Spelling Board. 105 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: And what the Simplified Spelling Board was trying to do, 106 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: as far as they were concerned, was just kind of 107 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: hasten what was already an organic, naturally occurring process of 108 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: making it easier to spell English words. And a really 109 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: good example that I saw was that in Elizabeth in 110 00:05:55,320 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: England or Bethan, depending on where you are speaking English. 111 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: Fish was spelled fyshe and at some point, naturally, there 112 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: was no board telling everyone to do this, which I 113 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: think ultimately is what people's problem is with this. It's 114 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: somebody saying we're going to do this now. Just naturally, 115 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: it happened that people started spelling fish fish instead. It 116 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: makes way more sense. It is easier to spell f y. 117 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: She was clearly the invention of a madman, so that 118 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: happens anyway. I mean, that's also the reason why in 119 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: the United States we don't spell like honor or color 120 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: with an ou like they do in the UK or 121 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: Canada or Australia, or we don't spell program with an 122 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: extra me at the end, because at some point the 123 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: people in the United States said, we're just going to 124 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: start spelling this. It's just easier this way. And so 125 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: what the simplified spelling board was saying is like, we're 126 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: just trying to move all this along to its inevitable conclusion. 127 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: Do we have to wait like a thousand years before 128 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: it just happens on its own. 129 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 2: No, but we do have to wait a very short 130 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 2: time while we take a break and then short stuff 131 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 2: will be right back. 132 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: So again, this is not the first and only time 133 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: people have proposed simplified spelling. There have also been other 134 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: initiatives to not only simplify the spelling of English words, 135 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: but also to kind of straighten out some of the 136 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: weirder rules of grammar too. And there's a guy named 137 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: James Ruggles. He was an Ohio teacher, and he said, 138 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: we're gonna spell no k n o W the way 139 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: that it should be spelled n oe in the present tense, 140 00:07:55,400 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: like I know chuck is great, but instead of k 141 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: n e W for past tense, we're gonna say nod, 142 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: like I've always knowed that chuck is great. 143 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:12,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, So you know, they're in presents part of the problem. 144 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: If you're a literate human and you look at something 145 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 2: phonetically or say something like I knowed that it makes 146 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 2: you sound like you're, you know, maybe not so smart, right, 147 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 2: So you know that's that's kind of the issue, is 148 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 2: that the people always pushing for this are probably like 149 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 2: the hyper literate, and they're not gonna push for something 150 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 2: that looks like it's not well. 151 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, but what's weird is you do have occurrences of 152 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: people in history like Mark Twain and Andrew Carnegie like 153 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: it's weird. Yes, there's like a roadblock in that. Yes, 154 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: people who are well versed in English literacy do do 155 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 1: see this as kind of like there's something wrong with it. 156 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: But those are also the same people who have kind 157 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: of started initiatives in the past. So I don't know 158 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: what the deal is. I don't know if we're ever 159 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: going to do this to you. 160 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, what I wonder is how 161 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 2: far Twain and that board was pushing things, because it's 162 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: one thing to spell you know, thought or though thcho, 163 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 2: which is how people do it on text now or 164 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 2: thhoe maybe, and then to say like I knowed that guy, 165 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 2: you know what I mean? 166 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I do know you mean. 167 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, one's a little further I think than the other. 168 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: Well, so yeah, I'm not exactly how farther or pushing 169 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: it either, but I do know that they backed off 170 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: big time after Teddy Roosevelt got his his campaign hat 171 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: handed to him by Congress, right, Yeah, So it just 172 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: died down for decades, and it wasn't until the seventies 173 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: that it came up again from a guy named Edward 174 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: ron Thaler, and he was the chairman of the American 175 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: Literacy Council. He not only saw a need to simplify 176 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: spelling for the sake that it could be simplified, he 177 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 1: traced the problem of having trouble learning English and a 178 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: literacy rates to dropping out of school and then turning 179 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: to a life of crime. So to him, simplifying English 180 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: would actually help alleviate America's crime problem, which was a 181 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: big deal from the seventies to the nineties. 182 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he thought, like, the computers are coming along now, 183 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 2: this will be the perfect time to make this transition 184 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 2: because we can have computer programs sort of just convert 185 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 2: this stuff automatically into the simplified form, and then before 186 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 2: you know it, everyone will just sort of, you know, 187 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 2: adopt this as it becomes the regular thing in computers. 188 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: Right, So, America seems to be doing pretty good. There's 189 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: a ninety nine percent literacy rate among Americans. That seems 190 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: to be like fairly where it is throughout the English 191 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: speaking world. But something that I didn't realize check that 192 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: that just talks about basic literacy, like just being able 193 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 1: to read, like you can sound out words and read, 194 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: you understand the basic building blocks of English grammar. Ninety 195 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: nine percent of Americans know how to do that. But 196 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: when you talk about functional literacy, it drops precipitously. 197 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, this number surprises me me too. Apparently twenty one 198 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 2: percent of Americans are functionally illiterate, which, yeah, that's that 199 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 2: seems high, but you know, if that's the stat that's 200 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: the stat. 201 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, And to be functionally illiterate means that you can read, 202 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: but you have trouble navigating life as an adult in 203 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: the English speaking world, say like reading tax forms or 204 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: something like that, because you're basically literate but not functionally literate. Yeah. 205 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: Twenty one percent of Americans, by the way, equal seventy 206 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: one million people. 207 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a lot of folks. So yeah, I mean 208 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 2: there's a case to be made. I think people are 209 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: doing it on their own a little bit, like I said, 210 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 2: through texts, But I don't I don't think, like you know, 211 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 2: proper graded spelling is ever going to change that much. 212 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 2: I think that ship has kind of sailed. 213 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. Before we go, thank you very much 214 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: to History dot Com, Time, Paleo, Future, Smithsonian, Uh, and 215 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: the Uncle John's Bathroom Reader, who is takes this to me, 216 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: Oh god, when I was probably fifteen. We're finally getting 217 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: around to do it. 218 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 2: Shocking. Yeah, this is how many years later is that? Oh? 219 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: Like Tony? 220 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 2: Okay, great, Happy birthday. 221 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: Short stuff is out. 222 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 2: You Know. Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. 223 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 224 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or 225 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:50,479 Speaker 1: Wherever you listen to your favorite shows.