1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I am Holly Frye 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. We talked about greeting cards 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: this week. We did when you said it, like the 5 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: outline of the episode just said something to the effect of, like, 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: I'm working through my feelings on greeting cards, and I 7 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 1: thought that meant something very different than what you actually 8 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: talked about on Yeah, in the introduction to the episode, 9 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: I thought your feelings about greeting cards was going to 10 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: be about I don't know their content, or anytime I 11 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 1: go to buy one, I can't find one with a 12 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: sentiment that I like, so I always wind up getting 13 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: blank ones. I thought it was going to be something 14 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: along those lines and not what you were actually talking about. Yeah, 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: trying to make space in my life. Yeah, it kind 16 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: of did help me make some rules about what stays 17 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: and what goes. I also think I might make myself 18 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: a rule that they have to get integrated into some 19 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: kind of art. They can't just be sitting in a 20 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: drawer somewhere. But that's weird too. One of the things 21 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: that really struck me. I didn't mention it. But it 22 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: was in that report we talked about the at the 23 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: end about the current status of the greeting card industry, 24 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: and one of the people from the Greeting Card Association 25 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: made this very good point of like, you can send 26 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: electronic greetings as much as you want, but you can't 27 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: in the same way hold like a text from a 28 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: loved one that has passed in your hand, the way 29 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: you can a card that they've sent you and like 30 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 1: keep it as a memento, and like the sentimental value 31 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: of them is I think also a part of what's 32 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: driving new interest among younger purchasers, which is really interesting. 33 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: That has been a factor. And ones that I have 34 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: kept that I might not have kept. Other one I 35 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: mentioned in that Duke d'orleon poem translation that I translated 36 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: part of it because here is why there are a 37 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: lot of translations I see of it that translate a 38 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: section of it literally. And the way it conveys to 39 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: the English ear, the English speaking ear, is not really 40 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,239 Speaker 1: in line with what he is saying, and that is 41 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: instead of saying I am love sick, it says I 42 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: am sick of love, and that makes it sound more negative. 43 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: And I switched it, but I didn't. I'm like, no, 44 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: he's obviously like very sad to not be with her. 45 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: It makes it sound like he's like down time for it. 46 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: So that's if you go looking for a translation and 47 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: you're like, that's not what this says. That's what's going 48 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: on there, Yeah, because you would say in French it 49 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: would be madame or sick of love, but it's like 50 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: sick from love, not tired of it. Here was another 51 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: cool thing that I didn't get into and debated about 52 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: getting into that I really really liked about the Egyptian 53 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: use of scaubs as a greeting and as a way 54 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: to show people you cared about them, Which is that 55 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 1: unlike we talked about the development of greetings in China 56 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: and in the US and England, really where it starts 57 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: out as something that like rich people are doing and 58 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: eventually becomes affordable for everybody else, it appears have always 59 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: been something that like, we're used this way across all 60 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: of the social and economic strata of that culture, Like 61 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: it was something that was available to everyone as a 62 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: means of showing other people that you love them, which 63 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: I really really like. Just cool. Okay, I read a 64 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: listener mail about figure drawing. Yeah, yeah, and how ballet 65 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: dancers are perfect for it, which is a really good idea. 66 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: Thank you again, kieren So. JC Horseley. John Calcott Horseley, 67 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: who designed what is often called the first Christmas card. 68 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: I didn't know until I was looking up information on him, 69 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: was sometimes called mister J. Clothes Horseley. Okay, not for 70 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: the reason you might think, because I read that and 71 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, was he a dandy? No. Apparently 72 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: he was a little bit of a Puritan and he 73 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: didn't he refused to do life drawing with nudes, okay, 74 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: And as a consequence, like throughout his career, that's one 75 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: of the things that gets criticism is like he didn't 76 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: really know how the human body works. He's not very 77 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: good at proportions on human body because he was like 78 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: so worried about seeing somebody without clothes on that he 79 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: would never do a new drawing class or a new 80 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: drawing study, which is so fascinating to me. Right, you 81 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: think about all of the great artists in history who 82 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: are known for their understanding of how the human body works. M. M. 83 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: Michelangelo pops to mind, of course, and it's because they 84 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: did so many nude studies, like m even a thin 85 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: layer of clothing is gonna change your perception of like 86 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: how the muscles and tendons and everything are connecting to 87 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: one another. And I'm like, hoarsely, oh baby, you could 88 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: have been even better. Yeah, it just made me laugh. 89 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: The only other thing I wanted to talk about was 90 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: end of year letters. Oh sure, I can't even get 91 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: my act together to send cards. Yeah, I don't know 92 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: how people do it. And yet the people in my 93 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: life that do it, I love those letters every year, 94 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: Like they're often super funny, and I'm like, oh, that's 95 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 1: such a great thing. And then I'm like, I know, 96 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: I'm sure it would only take a couple hours at most. Yeah, 97 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: but like my brain is so resistant to the idea. 98 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: I feel like there's been a year of my adult 99 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: life when I sent Christmas cards, not letters, just cards 100 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: to a lot of friends and relatives. Yeah. And I 101 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: managed to do that once when we bought our house, 102 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: I ahead of time of actually buying the house and moving, 103 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: used one of those you know services we can design 104 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,119 Speaker 1: your own cards to put together a change of address card, 105 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: and I already had those printed and if I recall correctly, 106 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: They also had an addressing service, and so I might 107 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: have had them address it for me, largely based on 108 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: the address list that I had developed for our wedding, 109 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: which was a few years before. Like, I went and 110 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: updated that list, and I sent those cards out so 111 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: quickly after I moved that a friend of mine said 112 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: it made her angry. She because she could not imagine 113 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: having been that on the ball in the middle of 114 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: a move. And that's the only time that I've managed 115 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: to be that on the ball. I have much more 116 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: often done things like bought Christmas cards with the intent 117 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: of sending them and not sending them. Oh yeah, still 118 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: in a stillim a thing. Yeah. Once I bought a 119 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: variety pack of those love pop pop up cards. Oh 120 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: they're beautiful. I love them so much. I think they 121 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: were flowers. It was like twelve months of flowers. And 122 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: my intention was that I was gonna send my mom 123 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: a flower card every month. And that's how much I 124 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: didn't have my act together. I didn't get it together 125 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: to send a card every month to my mom. And 126 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: then the pandemic started and everything shut down, and I 127 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: was like, I have this dozen cards, and so I 128 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: sent greeting cards to like a lot of friends and 129 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: family that like when everything shut down. And then, because 130 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: it was at that time of the pandemic, when we 131 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: really didn't know what was happening and we didn't know 132 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: how it spread and people were washing their groceries and whatever, 133 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: I sealed it with a wet paper towel and I 134 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: wrote across the seal, sealed with a wet paper towel. 135 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: So careful, so careful, and good, I mean in a 136 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: good way. Yeah, I am the only time I've ever 137 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: been even moderately okay at it. Some years back, we 138 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: had a sponsor that printed custom cards, and I had 139 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: New Year's cards that had my wonderful and horrible cat, 140 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 1: mister Burns on them. And then this is a little sad, 141 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: but mister Burns died kind of early that year, and 142 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: I had not sent a lot of the cards and 143 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: they are still in a drawer somewhere because I can't 144 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: the don't have it in me to toss them. Yeah again, 145 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: maybe they'll become an art project. Maybe we can draw 146 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: something halloweeny on it and make it like ghost mister Burns. 147 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: I don't know, we'll do something mister Burn's. Mister Burns, 148 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: this also did kind of inspire me to think about, like, 149 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: is there a way I can make the card thing happen? 150 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: Because here's my hold up. I think I would be 151 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: okay with it, except this sounds so cocky made me 152 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: when I say it, It's like, how lazy are you? 153 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: Getting to the post office from our house is weird. 154 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: We have a post office that's quite close, less than 155 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: half a mile away, but it's not walkable and it's 156 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: in like a shopping center that getting into and out 157 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 1: of it is a real pain. In the next I 158 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: was like, I want to do that, and then we 159 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: have another one. The next closest one is actually where 160 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: my PO box is, but I don't go there super often. 161 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: It's kind of like one of those things where I'm like, oh, yeah, 162 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: I'm having dinner over there, I'll stop by there. I'm 163 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,199 Speaker 1: just terrible at going to the post office. That's the 164 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: biggest problem. One day, You've suddenly reminded me that I'm 165 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: pretty sure I got an email about my PO box renewal, 166 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: and I'm like that, I handle that. I'm on top 167 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: of it. I'm on top. Yeah, I'm not actually on 168 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 1: top of things. Yeah yeah, And then I actually feel 169 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 1: especially having listened to this and it being inspired by 170 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: me trying to clear out my house. There's also part 171 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: of me that's like, do I want to dump more 172 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: things in other people's lives? What if they don't want cards? Yeah, treachery. 173 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: Maybe I'll ask everybody do you want cards? This year? 174 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: I don't want to give you things you don't want 175 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: to deal with. We have a number of friends that 176 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: tend to send either letters or cards, and a lot 177 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: of our friends who have kids have been sending like 178 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: little pictures of their kids. And I had done some 179 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: tidying and I had discarded like the envelopes things that 180 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: came in that the envelopes that the things had come in, 181 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: the things that were not actually necessary. So I had 182 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 1: the pictures and the cards, but the pictures had become 183 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,079 Speaker 1: separated from the cards. Uh huh. And there was a 184 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: moment where Patrick came and looked at a picture of 185 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: a child and was like, who is this? Whose baby 186 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: is this? We had to like macked it up figure 187 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: out who was Yeah, I'm pretty lucky in that regard. 188 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think through like my good friends that 189 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: would send me pictures of their kids, and one couple 190 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: in particular, their kids look so much like either one 191 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: or the other of them that I could easily go, oh, 192 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: I know whose kid that is? Well, and in our defense, 193 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: this particular picture did not look as much like the 194 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: other pictures of the child or the child. Yeah, yeah, 195 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: it happens. For whatever reason, it was just an angle 196 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: that didn't look the same. I guess. We talked about 197 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: the Memphis massacre, Yeah, we did. We have several similar 198 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: massacres and the archive. We're going to have a related 199 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: Saturday Classic coming up, and several of them are episodes 200 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: I wrote. And I got to this point that I 201 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: felt like we were telling essentially the same story over 202 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: and over, but that it wasn't adding anything new or 203 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: additional to what we were talking about. It just sort 204 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: of felt like we were revisiting the same trauma repeatedly. 205 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: Right with this one, my intent had been to have 206 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: an episode that was about Francis Thompson, because I thought 207 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: there was more information about her than there was Gotcha, 208 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: and I sort of understood that to do the episode, 209 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: I would need to talk about the massacre as part 210 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: of the context, and so I was thinking between what 211 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: we know about her and the massacre there's probably a 212 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: whole episode there. But then I realized that, apart from 213 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 1: her testimony she gave before the House Select Committee, what 214 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: we know about her is basically entirely in horrifying, incredibly 215 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: disrespectful news articles. If the episode had been about her, 216 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: since our show is on Netflix now and we need 217 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: some visual things to go on Netflix, we probably would 218 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: have needed to use those illustrations of her, which were 219 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: not things like she was not in control of her 220 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: own right depiction there, it was something that she was 221 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: forced to do. And then these are pictures that were 222 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: being printed to make her look bad, And I just 223 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: felt like there was not a way to really focus 224 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: the episode on her without having to draw from this 225 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: incredibly disrespectful and offensive source material. And I, like we 226 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: have said before, it is incredibly important to acknowledge the 227 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 1: reality that for all of history there have been people 228 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: who have lived in whatever way outside of their society 229 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,959 Speaker 1: standards for things like sex and gender. But it's also 230 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: really important to do that in a way that doesn't 231 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: feel like we are disrespecting the people of the past 232 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: or trans people living today. Yeah, and so like, as 233 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: I read just a series of awful articles, I was like, 234 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: I think the focus here needs to be about the massacre, 235 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: because this massacre does have some aspects that don't feel 236 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: like we're just repeating the same trauma. When we get 237 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: into the part about the influence on things like the 238 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: fourteenth Amendment, and then also spend some time talking about 239 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: her and what happened to her. That's how we sort 240 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: of arrived at the episode that we wound up doing. 241 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: A sort of bit of information that I could not 242 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: find a good place in the structure of the episode 243 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: to include. Is Mary Church Terrell, who was a journalist 244 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: and a suffrage advocate, a civil rights activist. Also, she 245 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: wrote a memoir that was published in nineteen forty and 246 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: she talks about this massacre in that memoir because her 247 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: father was there and her father was shot and left 248 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: for dead, and in her description of this she refers 249 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: to it as the Irish Riot. And that's something that 250 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: she wrote in nineteen forty, so decades later after it 251 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: had happened, which to me was just an illustration of 252 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: how tightly it was still connected to the idea of 253 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: the Irish community and not former Confederates or the white 254 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: community more broadly, even though at that point it was 255 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: not in public memory much anymore beyond people who had 256 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: some kind of direct connection to it, like she did 257 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: through her father. I marvel and don't marvel at how 258 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: quickly this did fall out of public memory. Yeah, And 259 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: I wonder because we're watching the same thing happen to 260 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: a lot of things today, right, the difference being that 261 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: today were like inundated with a constant, wildflow of information 262 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: and news all the time, so it's kind of easy 263 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: for your brain to like cycle to the next thing, 264 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: whereas with this, you know, presumably there were not as 265 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: many huge violent outbreaks going on on the daily being 266 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: reported in papers. So I find myself being like, how 267 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: much of this was sort of a purposeful and how 268 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: much of it? I mean, there's no one there's no 269 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: one answer either, right, like how much of it is 270 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: people just being like that was so horrific And this 271 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: incredibly horrifying reminder of the capacity for human cruelty and 272 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: violence is something that like we almost deal with and 273 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: process emotionally or intellectually. So let's put it aside versus 274 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: people just like not caring, Like those are all elements 275 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: of the the ways that people I don't even know 276 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: if they forget, but they just kind of don't engage 277 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: with that information anymore, and I I it's terrifying. Yeah, 278 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: there have been there have been some episodes on other 279 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: especially very traumatic incidents, incidents of racist violence, where we 280 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: have gotten more into like the how of how it 281 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: fell out of public memory. Yeah, and sometimes there's been 282 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: an aspect of the incident becoming a taboo among the 283 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: people that it happened to, and people not wanting to 284 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: talk about it among their family members, not wanting to 285 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: talk about it among their descendants, right, not really like 286 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: wanting to revisit that trauma. But then there have also 287 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: been times that the focus was a lot more one 288 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: intentionally burying the history of what happened, often on the 289 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: part of whoever perpetrated the violence. But that's been part 290 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: of a lot of these episodes that we have done before. 291 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: Like I grew up in North Carolina, never heard about 292 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: the Wilmington Coup until I was an adult, if I 293 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: remember correctly, what our episode about the Tulsa massacre. Similarly, 294 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: like the Tulsa massacre kind of was not in the 295 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: public consciousness until it was resurrected by historians and activists 296 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: and people trying to make sure that it continued to 297 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: be part of the history, became re became part of 298 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: the history that was talked about, and then with the 299 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: Tulsa massacre specifically, like the TV show Watchmen. Ye, it 300 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 1: was part of that TV show, and like that became 301 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: how a lot of people heard about it, And like 302 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: I remember when that show was on, seeing a lot 303 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: of people on social media discovering for the first time 304 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: that that had happened, and not really realizing that it 305 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 1: wasn't just one thing. It was part of this pattern, right, 306 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 1: that has happened over and over and over again all 307 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: around the country at points over you know, decades slash centuries. 308 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 1: I really appreciated the fact that there was, you know, 309 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: a conscious effort leading up to the one hundred and 310 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: fiftieth anniversary of the Memphis massacre that say, Okay, we 311 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: are going to have all of these events, We're going 312 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: to hold a symposium, We're going to like they made 313 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: a website and a blog and a lot of stuff 314 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: to just try to like make people aware that this 315 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 1: had happened who might not have been aware of it before. Yeah. 316 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 1: The other thing I couldn't help but think about, which 317 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: might be a weird line to draw between two things. 318 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 1: Is you know, we talked about Francis Thompson and her 319 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: horrific treatment, which was in the mid to late eighteen seventies, 320 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 1: right by the time she passed, and then just you know, 321 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: forty five years later, you get Gladys being famous as 322 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: a person who is bucking gender and sexuality norms, right, 323 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: And I'm like, on the one hand, if you're a 324 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: single person living through that, that feels like a very 325 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: long time. But in the arc of history, that's a 326 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: pretty short time. Branted, there are a lot of other variables, right, 327 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: not the same place, et cetera. But it is kind 328 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: of an interesting thing to think about. When we talked 329 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: about Gladys's story, Gladys Bentley, I wasn't really thinking about 330 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: it in terms of like just a few decades earlier. Yeah, 331 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 1: these things we're still playing out, and the really like 332 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: direct ramifications of you know, the ways that particularly people 333 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: of color that we're seen as outside of any of 334 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: those norms were treated was very different and could be 335 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 1: much harsher. Granted, we continue to see you know, violence today. 336 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: I don't want to act like it rings fine, but 337 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: it is an interesting way that we look at the 338 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: ebbs and flows of how things shift forward. We talked 339 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: in this episode about like the wave that happens after 340 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: that when progress is made and then there's like a 341 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 1: knee job towards a less less fruitful and less tolerant 342 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: you know environment. Yeah. I mean my hope always, which 343 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 1: might be naive, is that like each progressive step forward 344 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: gets us a little farther, but who knows, who knows? 345 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 1: Trying to be hopeful today on in a world where 346 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: it's very hard, Yeah, which makes me feel bad for 347 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 1: the next thing that I wanted to I was going 348 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: to say, which is that one of the things that 349 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 1: struck me about the news reporting around Francis Thompson was 350 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: how similar some of it felt to news reporting now, 351 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: where newspapers were basically manufacturing the idea that there was 352 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: this epidemic sort of of cross dressing black people who 353 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 1: were sexually deviant and like dangerous deviants, Yeah, manufacturing an 354 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: emergency over it, which just feels like the same thing 355 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: happening today. Oh yeah, how like maybe with fewer slurs 356 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: and fewer fewer like intentionally incorrect pronouns, not saying that 357 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: people are never called the wrong pronouns in reporting. Obviously 358 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 1: that still happens, but like that was one of the 359 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 1: things that was in a lot of these articles was 360 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: like intentionally wrong pronouns and putting the pronouns in a 361 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: way that to make it sound deviant. But like we're 362 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: still living through a time in which reporting has like 363 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: manufactured made up an emergency about trans people that just 364 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 1: like it's not real. No, I mean, I would say 365 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: that the difference, if you want to keep it hopeful, 366 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 1: is that more people recognize now that that is below knee. Yeah, 367 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: and we'll say so than probably would have during Francis 368 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: Thompson's time. Yeah, for sure, that's true, same dance, just 369 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 1: different faces. It's like this is I feel like I'm 370 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: reading an article about the need for bathroom laws, but 371 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: it's no story time. Ago. Don't let drag queens read 372 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: books to kids, except you should. You will never have 373 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: a more fun day in your life. Those kids will 374 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: have a great time. Yeah, I feel so strongly about this. Listen, 375 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,919 Speaker 1: I want a drag queen tosried read to me all 376 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: the time and read me anything you want. It's great, 377 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: it'll be fun. We'll all have a great time. I 378 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: will tip you. Yeah, love it, love it. You've never 379 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 1: been to a drag show. Get your to a drag show. 380 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: You'll never have more fun in your life. Joy in abundance, Yeah, 381 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: we all need it. I agree. I agree, we do 382 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 1: need more joy. We need more joy, just across the 383 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: whole spectrum of everything. Yeah. I'm somehow reminded of like 384 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: having recently watched a live stream of an all trans 385 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: table read of Ocean's eleven. So much fun, love it, 386 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 1: love it anyway, whatever's coming up on your weekend, I 387 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: hope there's joy there, And if you're having trouble finding 388 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 1: that joy, I hope you have an eye opportunity to 389 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: make a little of it for yourself. And if joy 390 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: is not possible, then maybe peace or some kind of 391 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: little treat. And I hope everyone is kind to each other. 392 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 1: What in my head it made a flow chart that 393 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: was like joy piece ice cream. I mean that could work. 394 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: If you can't get to joy, at least get to chill. 395 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: And if you can't get to chill, make yourself a 396 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: dish of ice cream, then get some ice cream. We 397 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: will be back on Monday with a brand new episode, 398 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: and we'll have a Saturday Classic tomorrow. Stuff you Missed 399 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more 400 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 401 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.