1
00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:04,760
Speaker 1: You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast DAM

2
00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,879
Speaker 1: Paranormal podcast network, where we offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,

3
00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:13,760
Speaker 1: and the unexplained. Get ready now for Beyond Contact with

4
00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:14,680
Speaker 1: Captain Wrong.

5
00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,680
Speaker 2: Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and

6
00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:29,040
Speaker 2: opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions only,

7
00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:34,040
Speaker 2: and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast to

8
00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:39,320
Speaker 2: Coast AM, employees of premier networks, or their sponsors and associates.

9
00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,040
Speaker 2: We would like to encourage you to do your own

10
00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,320
Speaker 2: research and discover the subject matter for yourself.

11
00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:00,000
Speaker 3: Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and each week are Beyond Contact.

12
00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,920
Speaker 3: We'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of

13
00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,560
Speaker 3: the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from

14
00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,560
Speaker 3: the newest cases as we talk with the top experts.

15
00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:13,120
Speaker 4: Well, if I'm going to be on contact, I'm Captain

16
00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,840
Speaker 4: Ron and today we're speaking with doctor Pascal Michael. Doctor

17
00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,280
Speaker 4: Michael is a lecturer in psychology at the University of Greenwich,

18
00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:26,360
Speaker 4: where he specializes in the study of psychedelics, psychical research, neuroscience,

19
00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,920
Speaker 4: and clinical psychology. His research interests are broadly encompassed by

20
00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:35,840
Speaker 4: exceptional human experiences right up my alley. This would include,

21
00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:43,560
Speaker 4: but not limited to, renaissances between near death experiences, parapsychological phenomenon, precognition, psychedelics,

22
00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:49,800
Speaker 4: euphological investigations, and other entity encounters. Hey Pascal, how you doing, sir?

23
00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,840
Speaker 5: I love yousa. I'm doing great, really really good. Happy

24
00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:53,440
Speaker 5: to be here.

25
00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,760
Speaker 4: Great seeing you again. And we saw you at contact

26
00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,680
Speaker 4: last year. And let's start off talking about these near

27
00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,960
Speaker 4: death experiences. I've had people on over the years talk

28
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,720
Speaker 4: about their near death experience, but you've looked at this

29
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,000
Speaker 4: and how it compares two alien induction accounts, and there's

30
00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:12,920
Speaker 4: a lot of similarities between the two. Can you go

31
00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:13,680
Speaker 4: over that with us?

32
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean my PhD was looking at the similarities

33
00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,280
Speaker 5: between near death experiences and psychedelic experiences and kind of

34
00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:25,200
Speaker 5: specifically one psychedelic DMT. And yeah, I mean, obviously there's

35
00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,760
Speaker 5: a million things I could say about that connection, but

36
00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,600
Speaker 5: you know, it's very nuanced. On some levels, it's very

37
00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,240
Speaker 5: very comparable, and other levels it really really isn't. But

38
00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,920
Speaker 5: I think my kind of overall impression was that the

39
00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,440
Speaker 5: basic kind of structures, like the main just generic features

40
00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,480
Speaker 5: and things are very very consistent between the two. But

41
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,040
Speaker 5: then when you get on the level of the qualitative

42
00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,440
Speaker 5: nature of it, like how it all expresses itself, how

43
00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,120
Speaker 5: each of those features really express themselves between individuals and groups, like,

44
00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:57,119
Speaker 5: it's all very different really to how near death experiences

45
00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:03,640
Speaker 5: are presented. DMT experiences are especially, unsurprisingly of a exceptional

46
00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,559
Speaker 5: kind of psychedelic nature, like those whistles that are associated

47
00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,200
Speaker 5: with psychedelics. You know, they're very like hyper intense and

48
00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,720
Speaker 5: very like fractal geometric and that you know, hyper dimensional

49
00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:20,120
Speaker 5: type spaces which seem kind of impossible and kind of

50
00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:25,639
Speaker 5: hyperkinetic like a fluctuation. They can be very alien, quote

51
00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,040
Speaker 5: unquoite like in nature, very sci fi in its kind

52
00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:34,640
Speaker 5: of themes, hypertechnological, these kinds of qualities, and you don't

53
00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,320
Speaker 5: really get them with near death experiences, all right. So

54
00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,000
Speaker 5: that's that's the main means of deviation. But the thing

55
00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,920
Speaker 5: is is that because there is at least that kind

56
00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,560
Speaker 5: of connection on that level between DMT and near death experiences,

57
00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,480
Speaker 5: if you get near death experiences, a minority of which

58
00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,640
Speaker 5: you know, can look more like DMT experiences. And if

59
00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,280
Speaker 5: I've just kind of described those DMT experiences and that

60
00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,640
Speaker 5: with that way to you, then that kind of acts

61
00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,040
Speaker 5: as as kind of bridge from near death experiences to

62
00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:08,680
Speaker 5: these more alien abduction type encounters of minority. But it's

63
00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,680
Speaker 5: still kind of unmistakable these near death experiences which look

64
00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,440
Speaker 5: atypical or weird to this extent, more DNT like and

65
00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,640
Speaker 5: therefore like more kind of extraterrestrial and some kind of nature.

66
00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:24,680
Speaker 5: And that's very very interesting to me because they seem different.

67
00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,960
Speaker 5: They're an anomaly even within near death experiences, which kind

68
00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,719
Speaker 5: of you know, are embraced as an anomaly in and

69
00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:32,760
Speaker 5: of themselves, you know, where people get excited about them,

70
00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,039
Speaker 5: in the implications of them and things. Yeah, so I

71
00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,479
Speaker 5: basically did a little analysis of maybe a dozen or

72
00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,320
Speaker 5: so accounts of near death experiences that I found just

73
00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,039
Speaker 5: on YouTube which were of this nature, which are like

74
00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,200
Speaker 5: exceptionally kind of alien in some kind of way, you know,

75
00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,960
Speaker 5: And and I did in that kind of thematic analysis

76
00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:51,920
Speaker 5: on it. And this is one of the things that

77
00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,400
Speaker 5: I presented at contact just earlier this year. And yeah,

78
00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:57,360
Speaker 5: so just in brief, you know, were to hear the

79
00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,800
Speaker 5: accounts but didn't know that they were need experiences, which

80
00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,400
Speaker 5: they technically were you know, these people were close to

81
00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,560
Speaker 5: death and they had this experience and came back right

82
00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,600
Speaker 5: you would have thought that they were just this kind

83
00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:12,440
Speaker 5: of classic UFO abduction type episode for this person. You know,

84
00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,200
Speaker 5: they report like sometimes they would explicitly say like a

85
00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,479
Speaker 5: UFO like environment or like a laboratory, and they described

86
00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,880
Speaker 5: these entities and they're like classic enis you'd expect in

87
00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,120
Speaker 5: a Dutch account. And you're like, there were two especially,

88
00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,240
Speaker 5: which were fascinating, and then there are two others which

89
00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:33,160
Speaker 5: kind of looked a bit like those initial two as well.

90
00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:38,120
Speaker 5: But these first two were very clearly described and like tall,

91
00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:43,120
Speaker 5: like blue, large headed, large eyed, luminous kind of beings.

92
00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,200
Speaker 5: And you know, two to completely different people never met,

93
00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,000
Speaker 5: you know, had this new death experience, had these same

94
00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,040
Speaker 5: entities and the same kind of environment where it was

95
00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,000
Speaker 5: like this laboratory type thing. It was always quite matrix

96
00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,680
Speaker 5: like in the sense of being connected to some kind

97
00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,360
Speaker 5: of technological thing, and you know, this idea of when

98
00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,240
Speaker 5: they died they kind of woke up into this kind

99
00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:01,919
Speaker 5: of reality.

100
00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,400
Speaker 4: Were the messages different though from those beings in a

101
00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,440
Speaker 4: near death experience versus an abduction experience like that was

102
00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,599
Speaker 4: communicated from those beings to the experience or.

103
00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:15,960
Speaker 5: In these particular ones, that's just this kind of analysis

104
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,800
Speaker 5: from the YouTube things that there wasn't so much an

105
00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:23,839
Speaker 5: emphasis on the messages there, but with kind of classic

106
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:25,760
Speaker 5: near death experiences. I mean, there is a kind of

107
00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,400
Speaker 5: repertoire of things which is often conveyed by these beings.

108
00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:30,520
Speaker 5: I think there's an interesting link between the two, which

109
00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,360
Speaker 5: I hope you got in a second. But the near

110
00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,279
Speaker 5: death experience which triggered Raymond Moody to write his book

111
00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,640
Speaker 5: Life After Life, which put near death experiences on the map,

112
00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,320
Speaker 5: that was George Ritchie and he had this encounter with

113
00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:47,560
Speaker 5: these luminous beings who asked him, what have you done

114
00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,039
Speaker 5: with your life? You know, show us what you've done

115
00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,000
Speaker 5: with this opportunity that you that you had, and not

116
00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,360
Speaker 5: just like kind of productive, you know, kind of level,

117
00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,279
Speaker 5: but like morally and spiritually, what have you done and

118
00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:03,120
Speaker 5: to show them? And that is interesting that that's in

119
00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,200
Speaker 5: the very first kind of almost prototypical NDE and it

120
00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,720
Speaker 5: resonates through through the subsequent ones and this idea that

121
00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,960
Speaker 5: they there's a kind of imperative and it's often maybe

122
00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,080
Speaker 5: assocated with the kind of life review they give you

123
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,800
Speaker 5: this chance to look through the entirety of your life,

124
00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:19,760
Speaker 5: and that's almost like as much as a presentation to

125
00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,360
Speaker 5: them as well as to what decisions you made, you know,

126
00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,200
Speaker 5: within your your human experience and for what purpose and

127
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,480
Speaker 5: you know with what intention and what was the good

128
00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,760
Speaker 5: that arose from it and things like that. But you know,

129
00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,840
Speaker 5: there's other things, like it's ecological messages, you know, to

130
00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:37,800
Speaker 5: look after the planet.

131
00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,600
Speaker 4: And are those more in abduction cases or in near

132
00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:41,640
Speaker 4: death experiences as.

133
00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,920
Speaker 5: Well, I don't know about. I don't think there's been

134
00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,480
Speaker 5: necessarily like a really good systematic analysis to like what

135
00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,560
Speaker 5: is more frequent between the two. But those are two

136
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,960
Speaker 5: quite prevalent ones about your relationship to the world around

137
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,840
Speaker 5: you at large, and that will include sentient beings, you know,

138
00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,280
Speaker 5: so that first one, and then the natural world you

139
00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,600
Speaker 5: know around you as well and the planet which you

140
00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,000
Speaker 5: inhabit and et cetera. And I think those but those

141
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:12,880
Speaker 5: messages do happen in these europhone counters and abduction reports

142
00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,920
Speaker 5: as well, for sure, they're also classic. I think there's

143
00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,480
Speaker 5: a continuing between the two in that way, or kind

144
00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,440
Speaker 5: of a another nuanced level underneath it, Like when we're

145
00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,240
Speaker 5: talking about I mean, it's a bit of a kind

146
00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,120
Speaker 5: of a wild card thing. But when we're talking about

147
00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,200
Speaker 5: the idea about UFO landings and crashes and things like that,

148
00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,199
Speaker 5: there's a main interpretation of that. Well, now that's now

149
00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,600
Speaker 5: like burgeoning is the idea that so they were genuinely

150
00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:42,400
Speaker 5: from these other beings, and they were and they were

151
00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,480
Speaker 5: like deliberate, And I think lots of people interpret that

152
00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,200
Speaker 5: as a kind of test for us, like whether what

153
00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:50,959
Speaker 5: we're going to do with it? Are we going to

154
00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,480
Speaker 5: do we have the intelligence to work it out and

155
00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,760
Speaker 5: bloody blah. But I think, you know, and the reverse

156
00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:59,839
Speaker 5: engineering and stuff like that, if we were to embrace

157
00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:02,760
Speaker 5: us idea that that's a kind of experiment on their part,

158
00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:04,760
Speaker 5: Like in terms of how we're going to relate to

159
00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,600
Speaker 5: it and stuff. I think there's a moral and ethical

160
00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,559
Speaker 5: imperative there as well as there are in these near

161
00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,200
Speaker 5: death accounts of what decisions we're going to make on

162
00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:16,680
Speaker 5: that level, like in terms of are we going to

163
00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,440
Speaker 5: use it for nefarious in the line kind of means,

164
00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,760
Speaker 5: so are we going to use this technology for some

165
00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:24,360
Speaker 5: kind of grade to get I think that's an interesting

166
00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,920
Speaker 5: way of looking at the comparison is asking.

167
00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,880
Speaker 4: You absolutely, absolutely, Okay, we're to take a break here,

168
00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:31,960
Speaker 4: we're going to come back. We're going to ask Pascal

169
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,920
Speaker 4: about some of the pre modern day entity encounters that

170
00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,240
Speaker 4: seem to be very similar in ways to today's near

171
00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,679
Speaker 4: death experiences and contact experiences as well as psychedelic encounters.

172
00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,360
Speaker 4: You're listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio on Coast

173
00:09:46,400 --> 00:10:05,960
Speaker 4: to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network. We are back on

174
00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:11,360
Speaker 4: Beyond Contact speaking with Pascal. Michael, Pascal, do you have

175
00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,760
Speaker 4: you come across some of these older texts that seem

176
00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,360
Speaker 4: to echo at least a relationship or seem to have

177
00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:19,679
Speaker 4: the same sort of idea as a direct daily in

178
00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,000
Speaker 4: abduction or a modern psychedelic experience, or even a near

179
00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:23,800
Speaker 4: death experience.

180
00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,520
Speaker 5: These kind of older accounts of these right which yes,

181
00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,080
Speaker 5: I mean near death experiences, they're a tricky one to

182
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,480
Speaker 5: really track down. Well, I mean, like with anything even

183
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,280
Speaker 5: with the kind of a potential, you know, whatever perspective

184
00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,840
Speaker 5: in seeing Canadas, like way back when you just you're

185
00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,360
Speaker 5: kind of fumbling around, you look clutching at straws and

186
00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,040
Speaker 5: there isn't there really hard data that you know, any

187
00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,080
Speaker 5: scientist is really going to want to leverage an order

188
00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,280
Speaker 5: to to make like a claim right, like a company

189
00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,760
Speaker 5: and claim. So it's still interesting, like with near death experiences,

190
00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,480
Speaker 5: so you can't even fully appreciate like whether or not

191
00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,160
Speaker 5: they were really dead, Like that's the main criterion, right,

192
00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,560
Speaker 5: It's like you're like physiologically in such an impairment that

193
00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,040
Speaker 5: was potentially life threatening, or maybe your clinically dead and

194
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,000
Speaker 5: they came back. Like you can't really rarefy those things.

195
00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,120
Speaker 5: But there are certainly interesting accounts that go back. You know,

196
00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,880
Speaker 5: we think it's like the definite experiences obviously didn't start

197
00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,400
Speaker 5: happening when Moody wrote his book in seventy five, like

198
00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,160
Speaker 5: we've been doing it ever since we could or we

199
00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,440
Speaker 5: could we could die. So but when it comes to

200
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,760
Speaker 5: the kind of enterity encounter abduction thing, I mean that

201
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:31,520
Speaker 5: is very interesting because I think that's one of the

202
00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,760
Speaker 5: more important avenues to look at when it comes to

203
00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,640
Speaker 5: thinking about what's happening now in the contemporary discussion with

204
00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,160
Speaker 5: our UFOs and especially like these US congressional hearings and

205
00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:45,720
Speaker 5: like becoming more of a legitimized conversation and maybe there's

206
00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,880
Speaker 5: some more supporting evidence coming up, and there's there's still

207
00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 5: like lots of room for doubt. And for instance, I

208
00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,280
Speaker 5: think there are compelling examples to say that, you know,

209
00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:56,800
Speaker 5: and this is a whole other question, but it leads

210
00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:01,000
Speaker 5: back to your own cression that these other crafts and

211
00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,319
Speaker 5: things that we're seeing could still be very very advanced,

212
00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,000
Speaker 5: very very secreting, a black budget kind of stuff. So

213
00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,079
Speaker 5: this idea about accounts in the distant past is much

214
00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,439
Speaker 5: more compelling, isn't it? That there is actually something going

215
00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,400
Speaker 5: on here? And like Jack Valai wrote this book Wonders

216
00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:22,000
Speaker 5: in the Sky, which tries to look at that, you know,

217
00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,319
Speaker 5: there are many of these occasions in antiquity, interesting kind

218
00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:30,120
Speaker 5: of paintings with these with these illusions or references to

219
00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,560
Speaker 5: kind of things which appear like UFOs and things like that.

220
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,200
Speaker 5: But there's i think the ancient ones. Obviously, again it

221
00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,040
Speaker 5: becomes harder and harder the more you go in the past.

222
00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:43,239
Speaker 5: But Ezekiel, I think is still a fascinating biblical example

223
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:48,560
Speaker 5: because when you read it, it just it does feel

224
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:53,560
Speaker 5: exceptionally rarefied, like a physical thing which is occurring, which

225
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,439
Speaker 5: is very technological in nature, like using language, which you

226
00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:01,200
Speaker 5: can very much make the argument that they're using language

227
00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,520
Speaker 5: that's within their repertoire of understanding right thousands of years

228
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:09,760
Speaker 5: ago to explain something which they have no precedence for whatsoever.

229
00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:11,520
Speaker 5: So it's just not in their vernacular. So they're kind

230
00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,760
Speaker 5: of projecting what they understand onto something that they absolutely

231
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,360
Speaker 5: don't understand. And I think that's like a good model

232
00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,199
Speaker 5: for like understanding this encounter with Ezekiel with the chariot

233
00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,920
Speaker 5: of fire, you know, charot of the gods like wheels

234
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,440
Speaker 5: within wheels, and it's there's a spinning effect, and it's

235
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,480
Speaker 5: it's covered in eyes and the fire and which is

236
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:35,160
Speaker 5: emanating from it, and the sheer, thunderous noise which is

237
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,400
Speaker 5: coming from it, and the shimmering metal like bronze and

238
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,600
Speaker 5: gold and things that they're referring to, and you know,

239
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,959
Speaker 5: it could it's all very much like lights and exhaust

240
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:48,160
Speaker 5: and the metal metallic craft and et cetera. So, but

241
00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,520
Speaker 5: they also interestingly use things like imagery from animals, you know,

242
00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,360
Speaker 5: like they describe like these different different heads of these

243
00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,079
Speaker 5: different animal creature to describe the way that this thing looks,

244
00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,559
Speaker 5: and we're also moves, and I think this is an

245
00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,600
Speaker 5: idea like coming from that. It's like an animism when

246
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,319
Speaker 5: they have no understanding of something that comes from the

247
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,640
Speaker 5: sky that is operating in this way. You know, so

248
00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,760
Speaker 5: these animals, birds and things, you know, things which move

249
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:16,839
Speaker 5: in the sky, these are these a part of their

250
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,200
Speaker 5: REPERTOI or to understand what this thing is. So they

251
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,080
Speaker 5: just kind of project that and use that language. But yeah,

252
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,120
Speaker 5: so I think that's kind of convincing. And the last

253
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,760
Speaker 5: thing is is this thing that I wrote a recent

254
00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:33,120
Speaker 5: paper about called the Liturgy of Mithras, and that is

255
00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,000
Speaker 5: basically this like Greco Egyptian text that was like written

256
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,800
Speaker 5: in like four hundred eighty, but it goes back like

257
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:41,560
Speaker 5: hundreds of years in terms of when it was like

258
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,880
Speaker 5: a very originally developed and that was actually Mithras, who

259
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,840
Speaker 5: was like a Roman god, so it comes more ancient

260
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,680
Speaker 5: than that. It's this manuscript where this individual, this magician

261
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,560
Speaker 5: is describing these theoregical practices, which means like the invocation

262
00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,000
Speaker 5: of these gods, and the whole point of it is

263
00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,920
Speaker 5: to self immortalized basically. But it's it goes through this

264
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,720
Speaker 5: whole arc where the ultimate goal is to encounter this

265
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:10,800
Speaker 5: deity called Helios Mithras aon which is like this supreme

266
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,040
Speaker 5: being of light, you know, like God the Sun. And

267
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,920
Speaker 5: what's interesting about it is that basically the whole third

268
00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:18,720
Speaker 5: of the text right at the very end, which is

269
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:24,280
Speaker 5: neglected by mainstream and academic history, and it's it's yeah,

270
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,720
Speaker 5: it's basically a description of the recipe of to create

271
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,960
Speaker 5: this concoction, this like psychoactive concoction that you do this

272
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,040
Speaker 5: state it quite explicitally that you need to take in

273
00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,800
Speaker 5: order to have this vision. And you know, I basically

274
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,640
Speaker 5: in the in the paper, I like try to do

275
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,720
Speaker 5: some literature work or whatever to see what the what

276
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,200
Speaker 5: this because there's a specific thing called con treatise which

277
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:47,680
Speaker 5: no one knows what it actually is, and that's the

278
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,080
Speaker 5: main ingredient. And but basically I think, you know, it

279
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,880
Speaker 5: has to be quite profoundly psychedelic, whatever it is, in

280
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,880
Speaker 5: order to justify these kind of visions which are which

281
00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,360
Speaker 5: are coming about and what those visions are ultimately are

282
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,480
Speaker 5: very euthological in nature, like mentioning Ezekiel. It does mirror

283
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,200
Speaker 5: that in a lot of ways, like in quite striking ways,

284
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:13,240
Speaker 5: like these entities coming out of this spinning object, which

285
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,680
Speaker 5: again have an animal like qualities, some of them are

286
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,960
Speaker 5: serpents explicitly like serpent time in nature, like you know,

287
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,480
Speaker 5: the kind of reptiliy kind of idea. Yeah, and this

288
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:31,200
Speaker 5: idea again of the billowing of winds coming from metallic

289
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:36,400
Speaker 5: tubes and pipes, and again like this, this like golden

290
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,840
Speaker 5: bronze and effects of this, you know, of whatever this

291
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,560
Speaker 5: object is. And it's also it was really striking when

292
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:45,720
Speaker 5: I saw that, But you know, it's ultimately that's just

293
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,960
Speaker 5: to say that people have these types of encounters and

294
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,240
Speaker 5: imagery in psychoic experiences now and they did back then,

295
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,360
Speaker 5: and we might think that we they only happen now

296
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,160
Speaker 5: because we're post industrializing with very hypertechnological ourselves and you know,

297
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,080
Speaker 5: we're full of UFO memes and everything already. But it

298
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,520
Speaker 5: obviously becomes very interesting when we have very very similar

299
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,840
Speaker 5: things happening, like you know, at least two thousand years

300
00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:10,440
Speaker 5: ago as well.

301
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,920
Speaker 4: Do you do you think that maybe part of these

302
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,439
Speaker 4: different interpretations could be the lens people used, Like ancient

303
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,560
Speaker 4: people would say they saw a fairy or a gin,

304
00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,439
Speaker 4: and then in Middle Ages they would say an angel

305
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,120
Speaker 4: or a demon, and today we say alien or space man.

306
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:30,120
Speaker 5: Yeah. I think that's very very likely. I mean, that's

307
00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,920
Speaker 5: basically how the brain works, you know, we even you know,

308
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,679
Speaker 5: people don't generally know this, but that's even on everyday basis.

309
00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,360
Speaker 5: That's how the brain works, is that we're constantly predicting

310
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,080
Speaker 5: what's going on around us and our experiences, and that

311
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,679
Speaker 5: literally builds the perception of the world that we have.

312
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,399
Speaker 5: And that's all based on what we already know, you know,

313
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,679
Speaker 5: what we tend to expect from our previous experiences and

314
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,720
Speaker 5: our cultural knowledge and stuff like that. And that was

315
00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:56,360
Speaker 5: like AI.

316
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,800
Speaker 4: AI is really just predicting, right for sure.

317
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:01,439
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah, and you know, but lots of these

318
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,399
Speaker 5: AI models are going to be based on like neural

319
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,520
Speaker 5: network experimentations and stuff like that. So so yeah, so

320
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,240
Speaker 5: obviously throughout time, we're going to have our different perceptual

321
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,440
Speaker 5: sets which are basically going to not just help interpret

322
00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,080
Speaker 5: what we experience like honest kind of subsequent kind of level,

323
00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,760
Speaker 5: but actually will drive our perceptions in the first instance,

324
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,520
Speaker 5: and especially if you're in an aorted kind of state,

325
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,480
Speaker 5: you know, like sleep paralysis, like psychololtics naturally what we

326
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,800
Speaker 5: just said, so people have been in these autotype states forever,

327
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:38,960
Speaker 5: and that in those states are especially susceptible to what

328
00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,600
Speaker 5: it is that you know, to experiencing something based on

329
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,000
Speaker 5: what it is that you already understand. Got it.

330
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,040
Speaker 4: When we come back, we're going to ask Pascal about

331
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,520
Speaker 4: some thoughts on some of the aspects of Andrew Gallimore's work.

332
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:57,600
Speaker 4: In impressions, the d MT might actually be accessing a

333
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,200
Speaker 4: real realm or a different plane of ex distance. You're

334
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,560
Speaker 4: listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to

335
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:27,040
Speaker 4: Coast AM Paranormal podcast network. We are back on Beyond

336
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 4: Contact talking to doctor Pascal Michael. In Andrew Gallimore's work,

337
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,240
Speaker 4: he proposes the possibility the DMT allows us users to

338
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:41,040
Speaker 4: access an objectively real, separate reality from this one. In fact,

339
00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,760
Speaker 4: I've heard him talk about user accounts that say that

340
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,960
Speaker 4: that reality is more real than this reality to them.

341
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:51,239
Speaker 4: What are your thoughts on that?

342
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,080
Speaker 5: Well, you know, I love Andrew, you know, in his work,

343
00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:02,600
Speaker 5: and because he is not shying away from the real

344
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,560
Speaker 5: nuances of the neurosciences, right like looking at all of

345
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,760
Speaker 5: these mechanisms, but still doing so in a way which

346
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,520
Speaker 5: doesn't totally like defenestrate the possibility of these other realms

347
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,640
Speaker 5: and these other beings, like trying to reconcile the two,

348
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,960
Speaker 5: which seems like something which which people often don't do.

349
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,199
Speaker 5: It's either like, oh, you know, we completely disregard the

350
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:24,920
Speaker 5: brain and it's something which is happening in this other

351
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,119
Speaker 5: kind of way, or it's completely all to do with

352
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,040
Speaker 5: the brain and that's all like delusional kind of stuff.

353
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:33,240
Speaker 5: But obviously where the future lies is recognizing that the

354
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,080
Speaker 5: brain has to be an instrumental part of this whole process. Right,

355
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,760
Speaker 5: So whatever we know about the neurosciences, you can't deny.

356
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 5: But if we believe that there's potential for this other space,

357
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,120
Speaker 5: you know, there's other experiences to also be real, then

358
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,679
Speaker 5: the two can't live at odds with each other, right,

359
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:51,320
Speaker 5: they have to be reconciled. And I think that's what

360
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,480
Speaker 5: he's what he's doing, but I still think maybe he's

361
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,399
Speaker 5: veering towards it may be a bit front loaded, if

362
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 5: you know what I mean that there's this assumption that

363
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,240
Speaker 5: these these realms do exist, and so we're going to

364
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,320
Speaker 5: have to try and fit what we know about the

365
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,960
Speaker 5: neuroscience site into that. So, for instance, like there's a

366
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 5: couple of experiments which have been done which he uses

367
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,280
Speaker 5: to yeah, make his argument, right, and so one of them,

368
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 5: for instance, is it's a little bit about predictive processing,

369
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:21,480
Speaker 5: which is basically like what we've just been saying about,

370
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,680
Speaker 5: you know, your world, the brain that predicts the world.

371
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 5: So undert that when your eyes are closed. There was

372
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,119
Speaker 5: an EEG right study when you have these electrodes in

373
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,959
Speaker 5: your brain, right, showing that the brain basically acts as

374
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,440
Speaker 5: if it's seeing and basically there's like bottom up signaling

375
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,719
Speaker 5: in the brain, right, and that's basically sensory information, and

376
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 5: under GMT, that was increased when normally with your eyes,

377
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 5: when your eyes are closed, as decrease because obviously you're

378
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,640
Speaker 5: not getting sensory information anymore. But as soon as you

379
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 5: have an injection of DMT or whatever, then suddenly your

380
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 5: brain acts as if it's receiving sensory information. And that's

381
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:01,360
Speaker 5: kind of different to dreaming.

382
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:01,679
Speaker 4: You know.

383
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:03,679
Speaker 5: We might think, well, it's you know, we have that

384
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 5: all the time. We have sensory like imagery in our

385
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 5: brains when we're actually disconnected from the world, which is dreaming, right.

386
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 5: But interestingly, dreaming is still quite predominated by so called

387
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 5: like top down information. So that's like these predictions which

388
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,439
Speaker 5: our brain is making, it's not actually sensory stuff coming in.

389
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 5: It's more about your brain just constructing these worlds as

390
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 5: you're dreaming, right. So that's why this DMC started was

391
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 5: interesting because it kind of shows that it's not necessarily

392
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:40,199
Speaker 5: just your brain generating some kind of perception from its predictions.

393
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:45,119
Speaker 5: It's actually more like when you're actually seeing something like

394
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 5: reality around you, right, which is kind of interesting. So yeah,

395
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 5: so he says, well, then that sense that information is

396
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 5: obviously coming from somewhere, and he's like, it's like some

397
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 5: orthogonal dimension to this one, you know, and his you know. Again,

398
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 5: reasons for that is that it could be dream like

399
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 5: even though, you know, despite what I just said, But

400
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 5: it's again unlikely because in the dream state, your your

401
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 5: predictions in this world in your head is built from

402
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 5: what you're used to. It's like, it's not necessarily every

403
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 5: day reality, because that's like non rem sleep type dreams.

404
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 5: You get rem dreams, which are sort of based on

405
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 5: your reality, but they're very very like bizarre and like

406
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 5: hyper creative and nessaciative and and for some people they

407
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 5: can look very very very removed from every day reality.

408
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 5: You know, some people have very far out lucid like dreams,

409
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 5: and some DMT experiences could could certainly look like that.

410
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 5: But his argument is that the GMT experiences is far

411
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 5: too novel. It's not based on anything that your brain

412
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 5: is used to or has learnt, you know, so it's

413
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 5: coming from kind of kind of elsewhere. There's there's another

414
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 5: kind of experiment where a recent one where they basically

415
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 5: showed that the brain between PLACEBO and DMT. These technically

416
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 5: weren't actual participants who in they're recording their brains. It

417
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 5: was a simulation, right, So it's based on data that

418
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 5: we have, like how the brain acts under DMT and stuff,

419
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 5: but basically as like a computer generated simulation of the

420
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 5: brain on DMT and the brain and just place ebo

421
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 5: and how both of them react to sensory like perturbation.

422
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 5: So just like simulating like a sensory input to both

423
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 5: of them, and under DMT they were the brain was

424
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 5: exceptionally reactive, so it's super super sensitive and the kind

425
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 5: of response would be would really spike in comparison to

426
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 5: the same level input on a brain, just like a

427
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 5: normal waking state. And he would argue that, well, this

428
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 5: is this is kind of evidence for what he would

429
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 5: describe as a directed world model. And what he means

430
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 5: by that is that these other agencies are leveraging the

431
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 5: state of the brain in order to kind of make contact.

432
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 5: And so this is the kind of thing that you'd

433
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 5: expect where the brain under DMT is much more able

434
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 5: to be in influenced, right, and so that maybe they

435
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 5: can be manipulated by these other kind of agencies or whatever.

436
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 5: And you know, I guess that's interesting. It's like with

437
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 5: his model, it's like, this is the kind of thing

438
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 5: you'd expect if that were the case, but it might

439
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 5: also be this kind of fitting thing to fit his

440
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,959
Speaker 5: original kind of idea, because we kind of is it's

441
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 5: not just what you would expect with his model, but

442
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 5: you kind of just expect that anyway from what we

443
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 5: understand with cyculate neuroscience. It's like, yeah, anyone that's taken

444
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 5: a circulator understands that they are exceptionally sensitive to their

445
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 5: interior exterior world, right, and so the brain is obviously

446
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 5: going to show this kind of data. You know that

447
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 5: it's much more sensitive. And also it's not you know,

448
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 5: in this simulation study, it was sensory input, right, it

449
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 5: wasn't like some information from some orthogonal dimension. So it's

450
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 5: it's a mixed bag with this. I think it's really

451
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 5: fascinating approach. But there's still because I think we're looking

452
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 5: at the very edge, right of the frontier of the neuroscienceis,

453
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 5: and not everyone knows, and so this invites differences of

454
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 5: opinion and interpretation even amongst the neurosciences are looking exactly

455
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 5: the same data. Yeah, I was.

456
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 4: Wondering, like, maybe there is no answer to this yet,

457
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 4: but are these experiences maybe something related to neurological reaction

458
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 4: in the brain or you know that they're not even

459
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 4: having contact at all or having this at all, that

460
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 4: it's just merely the brain creating an illusion like this

461
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 4: for some reason. Like when we die, we supposedly, you know,

462
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 4: see the bright light and all that. Is that maybe

463
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 4: something that's just happening in our brains and not really

464
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 4: we're not really going to another world. How are we

465
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 4: going to be able to figure out if we're really

466
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 4: going to another realm? Or or is that a long

467
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 4: way from now?

468
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 5: I think it's probably a long way to get that

469
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 5: crystal you know, crystal clear, because you know, even if

470
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 5: we did, it would be such like an ontologically shocking

471
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 5: thing as well. Sure that maybe we're not even prepared

472
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 5: for that to be honest. Yeah, I mean obviously these

473
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 5: types of things like divining, like veridical information from there,

474
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 5: like some kind of communication of information that you know,

475
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 5: you wouldn't be able to know by by other means.

476
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,439
Speaker 5: And you know, there are examples of that, like in

477
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 5: the literature for sure, like meeting entities, which which for instance,

478
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 5: in the near death experience. You know, like you said,

479
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 5: like maybe the near death experience is just this thing

480
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 5: just as a neurological dysfunction as happens in the brain,

481
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 5: and you know, there's so much evidence for that, and

482
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 5: it's not actually dysfunction. It's actually kind of a hyper

483
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 5: function more than anything, as the brain is kind of

484
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 5: being snuffed out.

485
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:35,239
Speaker 4: You know.

486
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 5: But there's still verdic information sometimes, like not just how

487
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 5: body experiences where people correctly experienced the environment around them,

488
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 5: but things like the so called peak in Darien experience,

489
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 5: which is where they encounter deceased people who they didn't

490
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 5: even know were deceased, or it even didn't even know

491
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 5: them and it was only corroborated like afterwards that this

492
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 5: person's existence was connected to them and died, you know.

493
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 5: So yeah, and it could it could be that we

494
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 5: are so far behind, like finally understanding the true relationship

495
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 5: between mind and brain. You know that there could be

496
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 5: something again relating back to this side of reconciling these

497
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 5: things which we forfither to considered impossible and then what

498
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 5: we know about the brain, like with this kind of

499
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 5: hyper functionality of the brain which happens near death, but

500
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 5: it could also kind of similar kind of mechanism could

501
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 5: mimic things which is going on in certain Orto states

502
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 5: with reduction in Kansas as well, where it facilitates things

503
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 5: like si you know, like parapsychological phenomena like determining information

504
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 5: from non normal means and stuff like that.

505
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 4: Absolutely, when we come back, we're going to ask Pascal

506
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 4: about how psychedelics could actually be an agent of disclosure.

507
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 4: You're listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio on Coast

508
00:28:47,680 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 4: to Coast AM Paranormal podcast Network. We are back with

509
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 4: Pascal on Beyond Contact. Prescal This idea of psychedelics maybe

510
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 4: showing us or opening us up to these other realms

511
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 4: or strata of consciousness or a reality that might be

512
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 4: hidden from our normal three D world in a way

513
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 4: does allow anyone the opportunity to have contact with a

514
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 4: non human intelligence to a degree, right.

515
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, And this idea of psycholags being the agents of disclosure,

516
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 5: I mean I thinking about it and writing about it

517
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 5: and talking about it in it already. And then I

518
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 5: had some more discussions with Jeffrey Cripele in the History

519
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 5: and a Religion. I'm sure you know many of your listeners, Yes,

520
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 5: and here apparently has also always been saying that disclosure,

521
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 5: which has because which is now this word is immensely

522
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 5: kind of salient and word in this this space disclosing

523
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 5: and revealing of information about the reality of these other

524
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 5: beings and et cetera. He was also saying all the

525
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 5: time that that word disclosure is almost a perfect translation

526
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 5: for the word apocalypse, which is Greek for abbot, where

527
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 5: it comes from apple and then callipse, and so it's

528
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 5: and clypse kind of that's where we get eclipse from, right,

529
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 5: and it's so it's so it's a closure, and then

530
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,719
Speaker 5: the apple thing, essentially it kind of translates as this

531
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 5: disclosure kind of event. And so immediately you get like

532
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 5: this idea that there's something inherently mystical, religious, spiritual really

533
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 5: in this this whole theme of disclosure and what we

534
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 5: would otherwise consider to just be you know, in a

535
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 5: very kind of narrow kind of way, just like extra

536
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 5: terrestrial really, and it seems to be much much more

537
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 5: than that. And you know, we can go back like

538
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 5: to all these eschatological kind of cultural themes and imagery

539
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 5: and things like end times, and you know, there's been

540
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 5: lots of like more contemporary cults and things, you know,

541
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 5: talking about the end times which are going to be

542
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 5: somehow like alien in nature, like from the countercultural sixties

543
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 5: and on board and stuff like that. But even way

544
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 5: back when with Christian eschatology, you know, if you actually

545
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 5: look in Revelations, I mean there's things dotted throughout which

546
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 5: refer to the end times obviously, but I think that's

547
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 5: an interesting thing. Like we were saying with Ezekiel before,

548
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 5: obviously the language that was used going to be fundamentally

549
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 5: different to that which we're using now for these kinds

550
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 5: of phenomena. And so in Revelation talking about these end times,

551
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 5: they talk about this the coming of the new Heaven

552
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 5: and new Earth, right, and it gives quite a detailed

553
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 5: description of what that actually is, and ultimately what it

554
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 5: is is a giant cube like perfect cube, which is

555
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 5: self luminous, which emanates its own light, and which and

556
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 5: that light has its power source in the so called coved,

557
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 5: which means glory of God. And there are other people

558
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 5: talking about different translations of what the coved is. Basically

559
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 5: it's referring to this kind of source of extreme radiant

560
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 5: kind of power of God. But obviously that translates as

561
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 5: the Lord and Yahweh like in the Old Testament and

562
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 5: things full of lights, and it's yeah, this this individual

563
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 5: goes on this whole journey of this angel of the Lord,

564
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 5: like whisking him away into the heights, into the air

565
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 5: to gaze upon this the structure which this angel describes

566
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 5: like is is the house of the Lord. It is

567
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 5: his dwelling place which is descended from the heavens down

568
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 5: onto the earth, and the Lord and his angel will

569
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 5: live amongst the people. I'm the first one to not

570
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 5: jump the gun in terms of areas which I don't

571
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 5: have expertise knowledge of, because this is like the wheelhouse

572
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 5: in Doermain of historians of religion and stuff. But it

573
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 5: is interesting when you look at it from that mordiotological perspective.

574
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 5: But yeah, but the psychedelic thing. Why that's interesting is

575
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 5: because basically psychedelic the word comes from siki and delan,

576
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 5: and that means in Greek as well, to manifest the

577
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 5: mind or to reveal the soul. And so again it's

578
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 5: this exact same idea of revelation and therefore disclosure. But

579
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 5: obviously we're talking about psychedelics. So not only does that

580
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 5: lead to this idea of the revealing of all this

581
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 5: rich experiential kind of repertoire of things, which can include

582
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 5: religious revelation or you know, mystical experience or indeed entity

583
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 5: like alien like entity encounters. But I find it really

584
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 5: fascinating when you're talking about the fact that psychoetics are

585
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 5: a drug. You know, they're a molecule which acts on

586
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 5: the brain in a particular way, and what that particular

587
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 5: way is really, in brief, is just that they dismantle

588
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 5: certain networks in the brain which are inhibitive in nature.

589
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 5: So obviously you're getting an inhibition of an inhibition basically,

590
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 5: which leads to a disinhibition of the whole brain. So

591
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 5: you get all this like unconscious material which is otherwise

592
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 5: suppressed being suddenly blown into this you know, through the

593
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 5: surface of your conscious awareness, which is fundamentally a revelation

594
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 5: in nature, so that all these things that intertwine in

595
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 5: very important ways.

596
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,959
Speaker 4: And it isn't there also like this paradox of that

597
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 4: this psychedelics from nature could in fact, you know, help

598
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 4: us because you know, right now we're pretty abusive our

599
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 4: relationship to nature. And then as people have these psychedelic experiences,

600
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,879
Speaker 4: and people who have NDEs and abduction experiences often then

601
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 4: change and become much more environmentally friendly, much more conscientious

602
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 4: about the earth and each other. Couldn't that, uh, you know,

603
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 4: paradoxically help us solve the problem we have with nature.

604
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean certainly there's lots of research now in

605
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 5: terms of I mean one of my of my primary supervisor,

606
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 5: David Luke for for my PhD before, like he's been

607
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 5: quite a champion in this arena of what he kind

608
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 5: of refers to as like psychedelic nature connectedness or I

609
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 5: think he mainly used maybe even coined term like ecodelia.

610
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 5: So like, these are these ecodelics as much as they're psychedelics,

611
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 5: and that again, if you look at the actual etomology,

612
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 5: it's like there it's the revealing to you of nature.

613
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 5: So so you know, nature's otherwise obscured to you because

614
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 5: we've become so disconnected from it. And I like our

615
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 5: world models and things are basically just urban, post industrial

616
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 5: you know, concrete jungles and stuff, and not the jungle

617
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 5: you know, the rainforests, you know, where we're we would

618
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 5: have really evolved. So they allow kind of regression of

619
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 5: our brain states, you know, but really acts as a

620
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 5: progression in the sense of returning to what our brain

621
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 5: on deeper levels is that actually more in kinship with,

622
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 5: which is the natural world. So yeah, so there's lots

623
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 5: of studies on that now and looking at more experimentally,

624
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 5: like people have take psychedelics, not just retrospectively because you

625
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 5: can't discern like the directionality of causation much there, but

626
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 5: like when you have clinical trials or retreats and things,

627
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 5: and you get data about these individuals' sense of nature,

628
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 5: how much they spend time in nature, their actual engagement

629
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 5: with it, you know, before and afterward, and it increases,

630
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 5: you know, completely reliably afterward. You know. So basically, when

631
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 5: if you look at a tree in an urban environment

632
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 5: in the middle of London or whatever, normally it's like, oh,

633
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 5: that tree, is it is amongst this sprawl, like you know,

634
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 5: modern like sprawl, but is this kind of a psychological

635
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 5: switch which happens where it's actually like it's actually this

636
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 5: this weird modern like sprawl which is just encroached upon

637
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 5: this tree, which which really like suddenly is like a beacon,

638
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 5: which is the fundamentally natural thing that everything else is

639
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 5: kind of artificially grain around it. So there's a real

640
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 5: fundamental thing which can happen in terms of that switch

641
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 5: for people, and they can really change their lives often afterwards,

642
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 5: with making their lives more like value aligned in that way,

643
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,720
Speaker 5: their whole professions even sometimes diet things of that nature.

644
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 5: And again you know that like we just said that

645
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 5: happens with death after near death experiences, abduction encounters. There's

646
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 5: quite fascinating like explicit things communicated by these beings in

647
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 5: ways which can seem paradoxical because they themselves are very

648
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 5: hyper technological. Like there was the aerial encounter, like the

649
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 5: landing out in ninety nine, was it in Zimbabwe? You know,

650
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 5: with individual this young kid at the time saying that

651
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 5: she got this very clear message through the eyes, you know,

652
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 5: giant armor and black eyes. This being too in her

653
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 5: very innocent, childlike language to not get too technoledged, you know.

654
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 5: But this is coming from a who literally just landed

655
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 5: in their UFO and their backg on, you know kind

656
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 5: of thing. So there's a really fascinating weird thing going

657
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 5: on there. It's like they're trying to forewarn in terms

658
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 5: of what they know is going to happen to us

659
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 5: because they've seen that, or they know what because that's

660
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 5: happened to them, and they're trying to warn us to

661
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 5: learn from their mistakes, et cetera.

662
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 4: All fascinating stuff. Really really love it. Thanks so much

663
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 4: for taking the time. Man. Hey, what's the best way

664
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 4: people could reach you or find out what you're doing?

665
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 5: I mean my Instagram, Like I usually just post and

666
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 5: promote like talks and paper and stuff that I'm doing

667
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 5: there so they can reach me. There's Dr Pascal and

668
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 5: Michael on Instagram there or you know, happy to receive

669
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 5: emails on my university email. It's a bit of an

670
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 5: annoying long one. It's p dot I dot m dot

671
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 5: Michael at Greenwich dot ac UK.

672
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 4: Awesome brother, great stuff. Thanks again. You guys can find

673
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 4: me at Twitter and Instagram at C T d Underscore

674
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 4: Captain Ryan. Stay connected by checking out Contact in the

675
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 4: Desert dot com. Open minded and rational as we explore

676
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 4: the unknown right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to

677
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 4: Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network.

678
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast

679
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: AM Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out all

680
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going to

681
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio dot com