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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for

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Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please

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Speaker 1: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, everybody, Welcome to Breaking Points. We have a

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Speaker 2: very special show this morning because we're being joined by

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Speaker 2: a celebrity guest host. Tim Miller is host of the

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Speaker 2: Bulwark podcast. You can find that on YouTube, and a

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Speaker 2: joins us now. Great to see you, Tim.

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Speaker 3: Hey, christ I'm excited to dialogue. I heard yesterday we're

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Speaker 3: going to be dialoguing today, so looking.

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Speaker 4: Forward to that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully I'll be a little bit more engaging than

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Speaker 2: I was at that particular moment yesterday. It's funny that

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Speaker 2: you were WT in the show, though, no, I know,

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Speaker 2: I have to be on my time.

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Speaker 4: I had to do my OPO before I came on.

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Speaker 5: You know, well, I read your book.

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Speaker 2: I was telling you I read your book up through

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Speaker 2: the elastophonic part because I just like, you know, sometimes

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Speaker 2: I feel like like I was trying to read Elon

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Speaker 2: Musk's biography and I just felt like there was too

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Speaker 2: much Elon Musk in real life, and I was kind

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Speaker 2: of overwhelmed by it. So that's a little bit how

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Speaker 2: I felt when I got to that section of your book.

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Speaker 3: I hear that totally. It's a slog for me to

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Speaker 3: read political books. I try to read mostly gay fiction

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Speaker 3: or like autocratic history, which is a little bit close

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Speaker 3: to our reality.

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Speaker 4: But that's what I'm reading now.

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Speaker 3: So I'm with you, and I give you dispensation for

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Speaker 3: quitting the book during the early sephonics section.

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Speaker 2: Well, you can fill me and we're going to talk

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Speaker 2: to you a little bit about the book, which I

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Speaker 2: love the title you called it, why we did it

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Speaker 2: in a little OJ nod there, about your years as

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Speaker 2: a Republican hatchetman and how you sort of transitioned and

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Speaker 2: you know, ended up where you are, and also you

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Speaker 2: dig into the person types that really populate this town.

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Speaker 2: And this is not necessarily a writer or a left thing,

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Speaker 2: but the type of mindset that political operatives can get

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Speaker 2: in and end up justifying things, and that you yourself talked about.

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Speaker 2: You know, you were a compartmentalizer, how you justified flacking

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Speaker 2: for politicians who are anti gay even as you yourself

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Speaker 2: were a gay man. So I want to talk to

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Speaker 2: you about all of that stuff, and then we got

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Speaker 2: a bunch of news stories to get through. I want

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Speaker 2: to get your take on the China trade war, on

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Speaker 2: the latest failures at Newark Airport. Seohn Duffey knows exactly

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Speaker 2: who to blame, it's definitely not him. I want to

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Speaker 2: talk to you about some Democratic Party stuff too, with

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Speaker 2: David Hogg and the back and forth with regarding Jim Clyburn.

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Speaker 2: There's some news out this morning from that Alex Thompson

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Speaker 2: Jake Tapper book too, about how Staffords were concerned Biden

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Speaker 2: would be so physically frail that he may have to

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Speaker 2: use a wheelchair were he to be re elected. And

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Speaker 2: then was say goodbye to you unfortunately, because you have

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Speaker 2: other things to do with your life as well, and

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Speaker 2: David started going to join.

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Speaker 5: To talk about Trump's fake prescription.

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Speaker 2: Drug executive order, and I'm going to talk about Hassan

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Speaker 2: Piker being detained for hours and grilled about his political

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Speaker 2: views at the airport.

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Speaker 5: Did you catch that story? I was wondering if you

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Speaker 5: had a no.

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Speaker 3: I I'm excited to watch your segment on it because

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Speaker 3: I saw like he sent a tweet or whatever about it,

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Speaker 3: and I guess he was grilled. But I have not

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Speaker 3: heard all the details that I'm very intrigued to know

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Speaker 3: because I'm the immigration stuff. To me on a list

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Speaker 3: of things that I'm not thrilled about from the Trump administration,

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Speaker 3: just the treatment of folks, especially over I'm not a

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Speaker 3: big Hassan fan, right especially, but like the idea that

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Speaker 3: we are going to grill people over their political activism

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Speaker 3: in this country or jail somebody over and outbed insane.

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Speaker 3: So I'll tune in for it even I'm checking out perfect.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's go ahead and get to the latest

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Speaker 2: with regard to Trump's trade war. As you guys know,

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Speaker 2: we covered yesterday that he backed off some of the

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Speaker 2: largest tariffs that had been levied against China. Yes and

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Speaker 2: press conference, he explained his view of what's going on here,

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Speaker 2: let's take a listen to that.

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Speaker 6: In addition, yesterday we achieved a total reset with China

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Speaker 6: after productive talks in Geneva. Both sides now agreed to

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Speaker 6: reduce the tariffs imposed after April second to ten percent

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Speaker 6: for ninety days as negotiators continue in the largest structural issues.

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Speaker 6: And I want to tell you that a couple of things.

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Speaker 6: First of all, that doesn't include the tariffs that are

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Speaker 6: already on that are our tariffs, And it doesn't include

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Speaker 6: tariffs on cars, steel, aluminum, things such as that, or

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Speaker 6: tariffs that may be imposed on pharmaceuticals, because we want

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Speaker 6: to bring the pharmaceutical businesses back to the United States

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Speaker 6: and they're already starting to come back now based on tariffs.

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Speaker 2: So, Tim, I saw you fighting with Stephen Miller yesterday

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Speaker 2: online over all of this.

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Speaker 5: So I mean, what is your view of what's unfolded here?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean it's a reduction of tariffs from trade

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Speaker 3: embargo that he had put in place that had I

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Speaker 3: don't think any really achievable end or objective moving the

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Speaker 3: tariffs up to one hundred and forty five percent. And

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Speaker 3: then it's like the dear leader is granted you relief.

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Speaker 3: We're down to thirty percent now, but but the tariff

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Speaker 3: on Chinese goods before he came in was ten percent.

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Speaker 3: So now we have a twenty percentage point or three

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Speaker 3: hundred percent increase on the amount of tariffs that consumers

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Speaker 3: are going to pay. So you know, if you're a

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Speaker 3: new mother or new parent, new father that is buying

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Speaker 3: a stroller or a car seat that has components made

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Speaker 3: in China, that's going to cost you're gonna have to

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Speaker 3: pay a thirty percent tax on that that you wouldn't

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Speaker 3: have had to last year. So I mean, this is

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Speaker 3: this stuff is going to cost more for working people.

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Speaker 3: Steven Miller's pushback to me on this was that, like,

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Speaker 3: I want all manufacturing to happen in Asia, which I don't.

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Speaker 3: I'm supportive of American manufacturing. There's a lot of ways

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Speaker 3: to encourage manufacturing here in America. I don't think a

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Speaker 3: totally insane trade war that is haphazard, that doesn't have

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Speaker 3: clear objectives. Where the numbers it's thirty one day, then

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Speaker 3: it's eighty, then it's one hundred and forty, then then

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Speaker 3: it's seventy. Now it's down to thirty again. How is

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Speaker 3: that helping to create a manufacturing in America. If anything,

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Speaker 3: that's creating uncertainty for businesses that might want to open

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Speaker 3: a plant here. Manufacturing was down in April, according to

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Speaker 3: you know, the government's kind of assessments. We had to

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Speaker 3: slow down to manufacturing, which isn't surprising again because there

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Speaker 3: was all this uncertainty out there. So I don't you know, look,

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Speaker 3: if we had to do targeted tariffs on microchips or

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Speaker 3: on certain pharmaceuticals because we don't want to be reliant

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Speaker 3: on China, could we could talk about that. I'm open

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Speaker 3: to that, But like this like just sort of totally

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Speaker 3: haphazard teriff regime has been a disaster, and the evidence

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Speaker 3: of the disasters that they've had to walk down from

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Speaker 3: it's without getting any con.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's there's so much there because you know,

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Speaker 2: his supporters keep going back and forth from like, oh,

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Speaker 2: these this vast terror regime is going to create all

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Speaker 2: these manufacturing jobs, which to your point is not true,

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Speaker 2: at least not in the short to medium term. We

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Speaker 2: already see manufacturing investment declining. And then they when he

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Speaker 2: rolls the terraces back then it's oh, it's art of

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Speaker 2: the deal. He got all these great concessions. There's not

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Speaker 2: even anything that's like face saving in this. They talked

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Speaker 2: some about Fentanel. That's the most that we got out

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Speaker 2: of this. In the meantime, you know, you've had all

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Speaker 2: this chaos, all all this uncertainty. Small and medium sized businesses,

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Speaker 2: some of those are not going to be able to

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Speaker 2: make it through this period. We still have quite significant

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Speaker 2: teriff increase on China. We still have him saying in

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Speaker 2: ninety days we may revisit this. So you still have

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Speaker 2: this climate of vast uncertainty. And to your point, one

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Speaker 2: of the things that drives me crazy here is like,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm not a total laissez faire free trader.

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Speaker 2: I'm open to some protectionist policies. In fact, I think

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Speaker 2: what the Biden administration did well, I had critiques of

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Speaker 2: them in other areas.

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Speaker 5: All trade actually worked.

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Speaker 2: Was you know, having the intended impact and was bringing

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Speaker 2: back those manufacturing jobs that the Trump administration claims to

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Speaker 2: care about. And instead they've taken a hatchet to some

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Speaker 2: of the most effective legislation and tools that were passed

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Speaker 2: during the Biden administration to actually effectuate the outcome that

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Speaker 2: they claim to want and which gets me to you know,

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Speaker 2: you raised the in your exchange with Steve Miller. You

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Speaker 2: kept referring to Trump as like the dear leader. And

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Speaker 2: they float all of these different potential reasons for the terariffs. Oh,

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Speaker 2: the terarifts are going to pay down the debt. Oh,

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Speaker 2: the tariffs are going to bring back manufacturing jobs. Oh,

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Speaker 2: the tariff's going to like make the dollar weaker. Oh,

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Speaker 2: the terrorists are going to rebalance trade global All these different,

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Speaker 2: sometimes contradictory by the way, potential goals and impacts of

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Speaker 2: the tariffs. But I've always thought the real core of this,

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Speaker 2: at least visa vi Trump is just he likes the

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Speaker 2: power of it.

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Speaker 5: He likes to have everything centered around him.

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Speaker 2: He likes to be able to go in and say,

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Speaker 2: you get your you know, you have to.

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Speaker 5: And petition the king, and you get your low carve out.

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Speaker 2: Every country in the world is going to have to

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Speaker 2: come to me and on bended me and have to

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Speaker 2: make a deal with me, et cetera. And so while

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Speaker 2: there may be these other ancillary goals or different people

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Speaker 2: in the administration, we have different ideas about what the tariffs

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Speaker 2: are supposed to achieve. I really think for Trump, it's

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Speaker 2: just part of his broader power play for sure.

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Speaker 3: And I am probably more definitely not probably more sympathetic

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Speaker 3: to you than you to free market. Lais a fair economics.

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Speaker 3: And so this is why to me, it's insane that

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Speaker 3: it's like only Ran Paul of the ostensible free market

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Speaker 3: Republicans that have pushed back on this, and this is

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Speaker 3: Trump wants us to be a state managed economy. To

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Speaker 3: your point, That's why I was joking with Steven Miller

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Speaker 3: calling him Chairman Trump and jear leader Trump.

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Speaker 4: That's what he wants. He wants to waive, you know, sign.

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Speaker 3: An executive order and I'll set the rates for prescription

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Speaker 3: drugs and signings, and I'll check the rate for how

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Speaker 3: much people pay for our soybeans, and you know how

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Speaker 3: much we pay for the upp of babies that are

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Speaker 3: coming in.

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Speaker 4: It's crazy.

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Speaker 3: It is the opposite of any pre market economic principles

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Speaker 3: that these guys are put that are instituting. And again,

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Speaker 3: like there are certain moments, there are certain industries that

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Speaker 3: might call for this. We can have we can have

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Speaker 3: negotiations about this, but like that's how the American system

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Speaker 3: is supposed to work.

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Speaker 4: Like Congress is supposed to have out of the purse.

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Speaker 3: There isn't supposed to be a aspiring autocrat puts his

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Speaker 3: finger on his tongue and decides what the tax rate

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Speaker 3: is going to be on various products, and you know,

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Speaker 3: just back to like the working people side of this,

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Speaker 3: just or small businesses. One example, I'm met a woman

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Speaker 3: a couple of weeks ago. I was at jamz Fest

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Speaker 3: and she comes out to me and she's like, here

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Speaker 3: in New Orleans, she owns this chotski shop of tourists

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Speaker 3: touristy goods, you know, beads and other kind of marty

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Speaker 3: gross stuff you would wanted to go to New Orleans.

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Speaker 3: It's been here for sixty five years. A lot of

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Speaker 3: their stuff comes from China. And she's like, my business

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Speaker 3: is gonna shudder over these tariffs, Like I certainly can't

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Speaker 3: afford a hundred twenty five percent. Maybe they can survive

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Speaker 3: thirty percent, but on these little goods, that's still going

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Speaker 3: to be a huge increase in cost for her. That

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Speaker 3: is a small business. You know, that is not one

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Speaker 3: of these oligarchs that can get a carve out from Trump,

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Speaker 3: and they're going to be screwed over this, and there's

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Speaker 3: no rationale for doing it. I mean, does Trump and

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Speaker 3: Stephen Miller want us to be manufacturing Marty grambiads here

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Speaker 3: in America like little chotchkes? Is that the key chains

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Speaker 3: that's the future of our economy. It's crazy And so

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Speaker 3: you know, look, I think that obviously the incentive of

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Speaker 3: this is that Trump wants the power, but the ramifications

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Speaker 3: I think are going to be very real for people

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Speaker 3: who are kind of outside the corridors of power, who

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Speaker 3: can't you know, get the Tim Cook carve out.

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Speaker 2: So to your point about Rand Paul, he was on

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Speaker 2: with Jesse Waters leveling some I would say relatively pild,

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Speaker 2: but still a criticism which is noteworthy at this point

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Speaker 2: from the Republican Party. Let's go ahead and take a

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Speaker 2: listen to what he had to say.

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Speaker 7: If he succeeds in lowering tariffs and lessening the obstacles

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Speaker 7: to trade, I'll be right there. I think it's unknown.

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Speaker 7: With China, we started out at one hundred and forty

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Speaker 7: five percent, then we went to eighty percent. Now we're

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Speaker 7: at thirty percent. But that's thirty percent more than we

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Speaker 7: have on currently, So this will be a thirty percent

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Speaker 7: rise in any goods who are coming from China, and

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Speaker 7: somebody will pay that, it will be the consumer. If

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Speaker 7: the consumer's happy to pay more when they go to

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Speaker 7: Walmart or more when they go to Target in order

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Speaker 7: to get fairness or to teach China lesson, then so

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Speaker 7: be it. But the proof is in the pudding. We'll

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Speaker 7: see what happens over the next six months to a year,

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Speaker 7: you know.

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Speaker 2: Going into Trump two point zero, I saw a lot

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Speaker 2: of I would call it cope from the Wall Street

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Speaker 2: types and from you know, the total free trade Republican types, who.

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Speaker 5: Said some of it was, oh, you know, this is.

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Speaker 2: Just campaign trail talk and it won't be any big deal.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, the terror regime that he put in

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Speaker 2: place was way larger than what he ever floated on

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Speaker 2: the campaign trail.

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Speaker 5: And the other thing that I heard.

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Speaker 2: A lot was well, he's going to use these tariffs

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Speaker 2: to actually negotiate to have zero tariffs, so it's going

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Speaker 2: to achieve more of a free trade, you know, a

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Speaker 2: free trade regime than we had previously. And I'm just

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Speaker 2: curious from your years inside the right and knowing some

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Speaker 2: of these individuals and the staffers and the dark money

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Speaker 2: groups that are involved et cetera. Are you surprised that

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Speaker 2: it's just Ran Paul effectively who has anything to say

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Speaker 2: about the complete insanity of the way that this has unfolded.

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Speaker 3: And if you would have asked twenty seventeen, Tim, I

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Speaker 3: would have said, yeah, I'm surprised. I mean, I'm not

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Speaker 3: surprised that people went along, but that there are so

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Speaker 3: few who didn't.

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Speaker 4: It was surprising to me at the start of this.

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Speaker 3: I've been pretty beaten down by a decade, and frankly,

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Speaker 3: I'm pleasantly surprised that Ran Paul is on Fox doing

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Speaker 3: this rather than just kind of sending out one press

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Speaker 3: release and checking the box. So good on him for

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Speaker 3: doing some economics education on primetime Fox. But no, look

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Speaker 3: I don't I do. I guess I was more surprised

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Speaker 3: about the business community a little bit, because they don't

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Speaker 3: have I understand. And if you are a writer for

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Speaker 3: the Wall Street Journal editorial page, or you are a

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Speaker 3: staffer at the Manhattan Institute, or you work for one

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Speaker 3: of these superbacks or lobbying firms, right like your your

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Speaker 3: career is tied up in finding out post talk rationalizations

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Speaker 3: for whatever the Republican Party is doing. And arguing for them, right.

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Speaker 3: I've been kind of surprised that the business community hasn't

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Speaker 3: pushed back on this harder because if you just can

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Speaker 3: you imagine and you almost hate to do those games.

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Speaker 3: It's so cliche at this point. But had Obama put

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Speaker 3: in place a unilateral ten percent across the board tax

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Speaker 3: on every good coming from around the world, thirty percent

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Speaker 3: on China, something that is practically speaking, the largest tax

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Speaker 3: increase in either of our lifetimes, yeah, like the business

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Speaker 3: community would have been their hair would be on fire.

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Speaker 3: I mean, like Obama.

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Speaker 2: Would be might have been a coup, Let's be honest,

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Speaker 2: I'm not even kidding. I mean, or if this was

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Speaker 2: like President Bernie Sanders, like forget it would be removed

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Speaker 2: from office weeks ago.

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Speaker 3: CNBC would be like, you know, one of those you know,

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Speaker 3: like chaos scenes from a cafeteria in a nineteen eighties

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Speaker 3: moved people are throwing chairs, like throwing desserts at each other,

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Speaker 3: and CNBC would be on fire right now. And so

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Speaker 3: these guys have rationalized this in a way that I

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Speaker 3: think is only because of the Team Jersey.

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Speaker 2: I think it's also tim because he is so dictatorial,

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Speaker 2: and because businesses are They do want their car ounce right.

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Speaker 2: They do want to be able to go pay their

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Speaker 2: million or five million dollars and go down tomorrow Lago

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Speaker 2: and make their case. And they want him to take

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Speaker 2: their calls and get their little exemption so that they

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Speaker 2: can survive the slings and arrows.

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Speaker 5: I think that's the other thing, because.

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Speaker 2: You see, you know, you see the way, even when

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Speaker 2: they do try to criticize, they'll front load it with like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: you're so amazing, You're so brilliant, this is so incredible,

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Speaker 2: you're such a genius, and certainly in all of your glory,

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Speaker 2: you'll understand why maybe we need a ninety day pause, please, sir,

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Speaker 2: you know, and free in terms of or the other

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Speaker 2: go to move that I see a lot is it's

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Speaker 2: never Trump's fault. It's like, oh, some staffer has misled

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Speaker 2: you and they're undermining.

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Speaker 5: You, dear sir.

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Speaker 2: So I think it's it's number one the team Jersey,

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Speaker 2: certainly for the Republicans, I think for the business community,

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Speaker 2: because the bottom line is the bottom line. They see

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Speaker 2: it as in their best interest to suck up to

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Speaker 2: this guy and overtly bribe him in certain instances as

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Speaker 2: much as possible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's Lutnick's fault, right exactly, like what And I

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Speaker 3: do think that, you know, the rationalization element is powerful.

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Speaker 3: You know, you saw the folks. It's like your co hosts,

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Speaker 3: there's folks on the nationalist side. They're like, we wanted

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Speaker 3: the tariffs, like this is what he's going to do.

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Speaker 3: And then meanwhile, the free marketers and the Ted cruz

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Speaker 3: Is the Wall Street journals are like, this is all

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Speaker 3: a big game to get down to zero. And I

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Speaker 3: think that's part of Trump's political power, which maybe some

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Speaker 3: Democrats could learn from, is it's actually good to be

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Speaker 3: a little bit vague and to allow people to project

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Speaker 3: their own hopes and dreams onto you. And so I

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Speaker 3: do think that's a political strength for him. But again

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Speaker 3: I don't I do. I do kind of blame the

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Speaker 3: rich guys a little bit on all this. Maybe now

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Speaker 3: I'm going to sound like the former Republican who's being radicalized.

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Speaker 3: But it's like, you really were that scared about a

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Speaker 3: two percent increase in the taxes? I mean, wasn't exactly

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Speaker 3: trying to push forth, you know, some nineteen seventies tax regime.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's like, think about how much money you

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Speaker 3: could lose, you know, from the economic instability if you're rich.

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Speaker 3: I just would have thought that the rational capitalists like

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Speaker 3: take would have been to a post Trump because of

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Speaker 3: the the you'd rather pay two more percent in taxes,

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Speaker 3: you know, in exchange for just having some economic stability

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Speaker 3: and having grown ups you know, in charge.

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Speaker 4: But I guess not.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they wanted their tax cut and they just chose

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Speaker 2: to mentally discount everything else. And yeah, I mean you

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Speaker 2: make such a good point. We let's put a three

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Speaker 2: up on the screen. You can see, like the stock

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Speaker 2: market surge a thousand points, and it's up twenty percent

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Speaker 2: from its prior lows. It's still lower than it was

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Speaker 2: in January when he was inaugurated. And also, by the way,

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Speaker 2: you know, the odds of recession have also gone down,

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Speaker 2: but are still significantly higher than they were. And all

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Speaker 2: to accomplish at this point nothing but like pain and suffering.

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Speaker 2: But you know, to the Wall Street point, I think

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Speaker 2: there's a few things to say there.

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Speaker 5: A number one.

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Speaker 2: I think it was Joe Wisenthal who made the point of,

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Speaker 2: you know, if you pulled Wall streeterers, like would you

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Speaker 2: rather have a Bernie Sanders style millionaire attacks or would

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Speaker 2: you rather have all this, They would all prefer.

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Speaker 5: The Millionaire Attact.

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Speaker 2: So not even like the Kamala Harris more moderate, like

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Speaker 2: just you know, oh, we might do a little bit

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Speaker 2: of raining in price gouging, which was the most radical

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Speaker 2: thing she proposed on the campaign trail, and there was

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Speaker 2: a whole melt down from the Stephen Millers and the

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Speaker 2: Trumps of the world about price controls, et cetera. Not

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Speaker 2: even that, like even a more maximalist lefty position would

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Speaker 2: have to be vastly superior to the economic carnage and

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Speaker 2: chaos that Trump is creating here. And I do have

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Speaker 2: to say, like I'm not a the stock market is

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Speaker 2: beyond me. I think a lot of it's just based

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Speaker 2: on like vibes and feelings and emotions.

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Speaker 5: And I think that's pretty.

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Speaker 2: Apparent by the fact that, you know, you have such

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Speaker 2: a huge rebound when you still have thirty percent tariffs

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Speaker 2: imposed on China. Like if we just started with that,

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Speaker 2: there would have been a huge freak out about that.

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Speaker 2: But because you start at one forty five, or you

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Speaker 2: get to one forty five and then you back off,

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Speaker 2: then there's gleean celebration on Wall Street. I still feel

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Speaker 2: like they're underestimating the impact that this is going to cause.

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Speaker 2: And we saw this sum in COVID the way that

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Speaker 2: you know, when things get messed up, it takes a

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Speaker 2: while for them to get ironed out. We saw the

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Speaker 2: way that you know, four percentage points of inflation, how

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Speaker 2: dire that was for American consumers. And now you're talking

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Speaker 2: about a ten percent at the best kind of across

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Speaker 2: the board tariff around the world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I once again we agree, Chris, We're going to

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Speaker 3: find something to fight about in a little bit. But

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Speaker 3: the uh, I think that the kind of day trader

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Speaker 3: types like the volatility, right, so it's good for them,

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Speaker 3: Like the hedgehung guys like the volatility is in a

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Speaker 3: certain band, they can time the market well.

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Speaker 2: Especially the ones who are talking to the Trump administration

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Speaker 2: and getting inside tips about when they're going to spike

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Speaker 2: the market, et cetera, which I definitely think is happening.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely it is happening. And then on top of that,

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Speaker 3: like the biggest companies are insulated, right, you know again

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Speaker 3: the Googles and the Apples, right, and so that's driving

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Speaker 3: also a lot of the prices going up. A lot

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Speaker 3: of these big tech companies are insulated from this. So

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Speaker 3: you know, I think that the pain is going to

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Speaker 3: be seen elsewhere, and I also agree there's gonna be

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Speaker 3: delayed pain. Look, I've justin Wolfers, the economist, on the

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Speaker 3: board pod today and it's like there's a delay in

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Speaker 3: you know, there will still be a delay in getting

436
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,399
Speaker 3: stuff under the shelves. So there'll be some stuff that

437
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,200
Speaker 3: is missing because you know, it takes a while to

438
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,680
Speaker 3: get for ships to get across the ocean, and then

439
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,320
Speaker 3: now we're going to have a pile up, you know,

440
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 3: like we saw post COVID at the ports, because folks

441
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:41,920
Speaker 3: are going to try to get stuff in just in case,

442
00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,879
Speaker 3: you know, Donald Trump's feelings get hurt by something some

443
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,639
Speaker 3: random you know, Chinese diplomat says and he decides, okay,

444
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,680
Speaker 3: we're back up to ninety percent, right, like you want

445
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,000
Speaker 3: to get the you know, the material in while you

446
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:55,879
Speaker 3: at least know it's only going to be thirty percent

447
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 3: rather than more. So you know, it has caused it's

448
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,360
Speaker 3: going to cause a lot of just ruption. Maybe it's

449
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 3: not the worst case scenario, which I guess is good. Right,

450
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 3: I'm not out here for a recession where everybody, you know,

451
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,399
Speaker 3: where regular people suffer, but like there's still going to

452
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,760
Speaker 3: be real pain. And again, like he was handed in

453
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,879
Speaker 3: an economy that was not perfect but was directionally pretty good.

454
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I was laughing at you know, Ross Doubt

455
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,680
Speaker 3: at the New York Conservative New York Times College the

456
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:24,919
Speaker 3: other day. That was like that was like Trump was

457
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,200
Speaker 3: delivered a pretty good economy that he had a chance

458
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 3: to build on. And I was like, were you guys

459
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 3: saying that last year? I don't remember that. I don't remember.

460
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,879
Speaker 5: I don't know what she got till us gone to Yeah, exactly.

461
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,639
Speaker 3: And so you know, I mean he was delivered like

462
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 3: what there was two three percent growth and we just

463
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,359
Speaker 3: they zeroed it out in one quarter over this dumb

464
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,679
Speaker 3: trade war. So you know, I don't it's I definitely

465
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:48,439
Speaker 3: think we might not be in worst case scenario. But

466
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 3: I also think that people are a little sanguine because,

467
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 3: like you said, it takes time for this stuff to uh,

468
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 3: not to trigger your hair, crystal, but to trickle down

469
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:57,920
Speaker 3: through the through the economy.

470
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,879
Speaker 2: All right, let's move on to the dire state of

471
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,400
Speaker 2: our nation's airports, the center of which has been Newark Airport,

472
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 2: which is I mean, it's just it's so disturbing and

473
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 2: terrifying that things you used to be able to take

474
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 2: for granted, like being able to fly on an airplane

475
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 2: without it crashing and you know, fiery wreckish or running

476
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,200
Speaker 2: into another airplane, are just not things you can really

477
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 2: take for granted anymore. Let's put this tear sheet up

478
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 2: on the screen. I don't know if you've seen this

479
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 2: latest reporting of the New York Times. They're saying that,

480
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,719
Speaker 2: in addition to the multiple equipment failures that we just

481
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 2: experienced at Newark Airport over the past week and a half,

482
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 2: they on Monday had three controllers on duty. The goal

483
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 2: is fourteen. Let me read you a little bit of

484
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 2: this report. They say as few as three air traffic

485
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 2: controllers scheduled to work on Monday evening at the facility

486
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,680
Speaker 2: guiding planes to and from Newark International Airport. The FAA said,

487
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,360
Speaker 2: far fewer than the target of fourteen controllers. The staffing

488
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,959
Speaker 2: crisis added strain into an already troubled aviation system, with

489
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,879
Speaker 2: flights to Newark delayed by as much as seven hours

490
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: on Monday because of that shortage. That FAA said in

491
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 2: the statement it had at least three controllers scheduled every

492
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 2: hour on Monday evening, but four people familiar with problems

493
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 2: at the airport said the number of fully certified controllers

494
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 2: on duty was at times one or two. Staffing shortages

495
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 2: affected flights at the airport for much of the day,

496
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 2: forcing the FAA to hold up incoming flights from taking off.

497
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 2: The delays primarily affected flights coming to Newark from the

498
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,120
Speaker 2: contiguous US and parts of Canada, lasted on average more

499
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 2: than an hour and forty minutes and up to almost

500
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 2: seven hours, according to an online FAA advisory. So on

501
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 2: top of that, as we know, and we'll talk about

502
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 2: a little bit more, there were multiple three different equipment

503
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:45,640
Speaker 2: failures complete failures at Newark Airport. Sean Duffy, the head

504
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 2: of Transportation, is trying to spin and miss and redirect

505
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 2: the blame anywhere he possibly can, and he thinks he's

506
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 2: found the culprit.

507
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 5: Let's go ahead and take a listen to him.

508
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:59,160
Speaker 8: We've all been reporting and seeing what's happening at Newark Airport,

509
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 8: and I think it is clear that the blame belongs

510
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 8: with the last administration. People to judge and Joe Biden

511
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 8: did nothing to fix the system that they knew was broken.

512
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 5: Your thoughts him.

513
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't want to pretend to be an

514
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 3: expert on the air traffic controlling system.

515
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 4: And I'm sure that the Biden.

516
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 3: He is an actor, a reality show actor at least,

517
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 3: so like, could the Biden administration have done more stuff

518
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 3: on this?

519
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 4: Maybe? I don't know, but I.

520
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 3: Think the important context here is that we're just going

521
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 3: through a period where Elon Musk is going to the

522
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 3: government running roughshot and randomly cutting a bunch of employees

523
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 3: like based on essentially nothing like not based on performance,

524
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 3: but just based on whether their employment what their employment

525
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 3: status was, you know, or based on whether they had

526
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 3: a DEI description and in their job description, right, And

527
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 3: so I think that, you know, these guys need to

528
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 3: take responsibility for what's happening.

529
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 4: They're in charge.

530
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:06,719
Speaker 9: Now.

531
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,719
Speaker 3: It's been a while, it's I guess it's only been

532
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 3: three and a half months. It feels longer, but I

533
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 3: do think it's their responsibility. And I just want to say,

534
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 3: like as the whatever former Republican stand in here, like

535
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 3: there is something to be said for like we want

536
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 3: to make more efficient government. We want to make sure

537
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 3: that we're not bloated, that we're not wasting people's money.

538
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 3: I'm for all that, but is air traffic controllers the

539
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 3: right place for that?

540
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 4: I mean, that seems like a.

541
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 3: Pretty essential service, and it is. And for me, somebody

542
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 3: that actually cares about this stuff thinks that our debt

543
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 3: is out of control, thinks it's crazy that we're paying

544
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 3: one hundred million a month and interested in our debt.

545
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 3: They're not even doing it. They're not achieving anything on this,

546
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 3: Like the guys in the hill. Simultaneously to what all

547
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 3: of this disaster happening at Newark, the Republicans on the

548
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 3: Hill are proposing a tax bill and a budget bill

549
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 3: that's going to add twenty trillion into the debt over

550
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 3: the next ten years. So we are cutting all these

551
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 3: people and putting ourselves at risk, putting our own citizens

552
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 3: at risk who are flying around the country because we

553
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 3: don't have enough air traffic controllers in service of nothing.

554
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 3: It's just like the tariff situation. It's like it'd be

555
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 3: one thing if we had, if there was the objective

556
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 3: was being met, you know, And we are building more

557
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 3: manufacturing plants here, we are cutting the debt down. I mean,

558
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 3: I still don't think it probably would be worth it

559
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 3: to cut the debt to have only one air traffic

560
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 3: controller on a new or exact it would be one

561
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 3: thing if we were actually achieving the objective. But they're

562
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 3: not doing that. They're going to add to the debt

563
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 3: and they're cutting people just again I think, in service

564
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 3: of power and wanting to make sure they have political loyalty.

565
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 5: Yeah.

566
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 2: I mean, the most obvious place to cut is the Pentagon,

567
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 2: and they're increasing the Pentagon budget. They want a trillion

568
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 2: dollar Pentagon budget. Cutting various government staffers is actually going

569
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 2: to end up costing you money, you know, especially in

570
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 2: a place like if you think of the most clear

571
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 2: cut example is the IRS, where you know, if you're

572
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 2: slashing and burning the IRS, guess what, you're not going

573
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 2: to be able to collect as much tax revenue from,

574
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 2: especially rich tax chiefs because they're the hardest ones to

575
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: go after because they've got lawyers and tax shelters, and

576
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 2: so it requires more resources. And so yeah, you're going

577
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 2: to end up actually spending more money after you cut

578
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,719
Speaker 2: and fire all this workforce. And to your point, you know,

579
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,479
Speaker 2: they did fire hundreds of FAA employees. Now they swear, oh,

580
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 2: they had nothing to do with safety, But if you

581
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 2: talk to the actual the air traffic controls, the people

582
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 2: that work at the agency. They say, just because they're

583
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 2: not like directly an air traffic controller doesn't mean that

584
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 2: they're not an important support for that system. So that's

585
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 2: point number one, point number two RUSS voting on the

586
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 2: project twenty twenty five. People like Carters Jarvin, who's one

587
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: of the you know, intellectual I guess architects of this

588
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 2: argv as skare quotes very much merited. Their whole program

589
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 2: is to traumatize federal government employees. So you go in

590
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 2: with an agenda explicitly stated of traumatizing all federal government

591
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 2: employees and then lo and behold, you have a staffing

592
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 2: crisis that is causing massive safety risks for the American people,

593
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 2: and you want to wash your hands of it, like sorry,

594
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 2: you don't get to you don't get to. And the

595
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 2: other piece of this is, you know, this goes to

596
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: sort of like a broader ideological point, which is everybody

597
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 2: hates government until you want to like land your plane safely,

598
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 2: and then suddenly you would like there to be air

599
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 2: traffic controllers. You were like there to be a new

600
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: system in place so that the copper wiring isn't like,

601
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 2: you know, burning out and causing the radars to go

602
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 2: out for you know, for long periods of time. And

603
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 2: I do think that Republicans have had obviously the most

604
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: sort of vigorous just across the board anti government ideology,

605
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: but it is also something that Democrats starting dabbling with

606
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: Jimmy Carter, but really starting with Clinton, embraced as well.

607
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 2: You know, Bill Clinton famously like the Arab big government

608
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 2: is over. And I think that that assault on government,

609
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 2: which has stripped government capacity and made it so the

610
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: government is less effective and is actually less efficient at

611
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 2: delivering services to people, creates a sort of doom loop

612
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: where then because government isn't working, then it justifies more

613
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 2: cuts to government. And next thing, you know, you're here

614
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 2: at this situation where there is a chronic staffing crisis.

615
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: And it does, in fairness to Sean Duffy, it actually

616
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 2: does predate the Trump administration.

617
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 5: They've just exacerbated and made it worse.

618
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, just a couple of things, and that one they

619
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 3: definitely are trying to try to intimidate people to get

620
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 3: them to quit. I mean, getting people to self deport

621
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 3: from the government was like a stated objective of what

622
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 3: they're doing with DOJ and I also agree with you

623
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 3: in addition to the IRS just on the costs. The

624
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 3: way they did it was illegal, So a lot of

625
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 3: the people they ran out of government, you know, are

626
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 3: going to end up suing the government and getting back

627
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 3: pay for not working. So that's not efficiency, right, So

628
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 3: I don't you know, again, I don't know how many

629
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 3: of the people that quit, if any, were actually air

630
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 3: traffic controllers. But the idea that they are trying to

631
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 3: push people out of the federal workforce rather than recruit

632
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 3: the best US people, that is just their own stated objective.

633
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 3: And you know, look, when it comes to that broader

634
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 3: mission of undermining government that you're talking about, I'm more

635
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 3: sympathetic to out than you are. I still think that

636
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 3: there's a bloat in the federal government. You talk to

637
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 3: anybody that works in the federal government, they'll say there is,

638
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 3: by the way, you talk to anybody that works any

639
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 3: big organization, they'll say, we've got bloat.

640
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 4: In our organization.

641
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,239
Speaker 3: But to me, the right thing to do is to

642
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 3: balance that with how do we modernize it, how do

643
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 3: we actually make it more efficient? Not like fake nineteen

644
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 3: eighty four, efficient like doge right, and the Obama administration

645
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 3: actually puts some effort into this, maybe not as enough.

646
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 3: And I mean that's like the craziest thing about Trump

647
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 3: surrounding himself with all these tech geniuses.

648
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 4: I mean, he's got Elon.

649
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 3: Who who I hate, but say what you want about him,

650
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,959
Speaker 3: like figure it out better than the existing companies, you know,

651
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 3: how to get the low orbit satellites going so that

652
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 3: people can have Wi Fi. I mean, he wasn't like

653
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 3: the inventor of that, but his company was able to

654
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 3: do it. Marky Andreesen, who's around Trump, literally was the

655
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 3: inventor of Netscape, the browser.

656
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 4: So he's got all these tech.

657
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 3: Bros who've come around to him and rather than you know,

658
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 3: using their expertise to figure out, how can we make

659
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 3: the government more efficient, how can we make services better,

660
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 3: how can we perform at a higher rate, Like they

661
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 3: decided to take a blowdors to the place and now

662
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 3: and then they want to wash their hands of it

663
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 3: when there are problems associated with that. And to me,

664
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 3: I think that's the craziest.

665
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 4: Part about it all.

666
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, well they I mean, it's much easier to destroy

667
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 2: than to build, you know, And I think you see

668
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: this in real time. Like I think Sean Duffy genuinely

669
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 2: would like to improve the air Draven control system at

670
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 2: this point, but that's you know, building out and refurbishing

671
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 2: the system that actually will take a congressional appropriation. You're

672
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 2: going to have to deal with Congress. It's going to

673
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 2: take time, it's going to take money, et cetera. Whereas

674
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 2: just Elon Musk coming in with the chainsaw and not

675
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 2: caring that it was unconstitutional and let the courts catch

676
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 2: up after the fact, like that's much easier to do.

677
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 2: The reality for these guys, I think Andresen and Elon

678
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: Musk and Peter Thiel and those types is they want

679
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 2: to completely defenestrate government so it can't regulate their businesses,

680
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 2: so that they can do whatever they want without getting

681
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 2: hamstrung by like oh I discriminated and now the Department

682
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: of Laborer is mad at me, or oh my Tesla

683
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 2: auto driving didn't really work that well, and now you

684
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 2: know people have been killed.

685
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 5: In a car crash and I'm having to answer to

686
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 5: the federal government.

687
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: They want to get all of that out of the way,

688
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 2: and especially in the context of you know, both of

689
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 2: these guys are major players in terms of the rapid

690
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 2: development acceleration of AI. And that really, I think is

691
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 2: a big part of their motivation is they want just

692
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: total wild West, no regulatory regime whatsoever when it comes

693
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 2: to AI. So it serves the interest of this specific

694
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: handful of oligarchs, and.

695
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 5: That really is their goal.

696
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: I mean, if you go back to the FDR era,

697
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 2: you had a bunch of industrials and industrialists who were

698
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 2: engaged in the government.

699
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 5: And this is the point that roconomkes.

700
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 2: They were engaged in the government in service of building

701
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 2: out capacity and actually making the government work better and

702
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 2: deliver more for.

703
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 5: The American people.

704
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 2: And here you have a complete reverse And they'll even

705
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 2: describe it this way, Frankly, the Curtis we talk.

706
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 4: About doing that.

707
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, they and they actively talk about wanting to do

708
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 2: a reverse FDR that strips down the capacity of the

709
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 2: government and traumatizes those federal government employees so that oligarchs

710
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 2: can have more control and can operate with total and

711
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: complete impunity.

712
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

713
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 3: Look, and you could imagine an alternate universe, you know,

714
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 3: bizarro world where you had Elon Muskin marking and Dreesen

715
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 3: in there grabbing the best people from Silicon Valley and

716
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 3: figuring out how do we modernize our FAA system, Like

717
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 3: how do we figure out how we can get the

718
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 3: ACELA to go from DC to New York faster than

719
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 3: you know, three hours and forty five minutes or however

720
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 3: long it takes now, right, like, how do we update

721
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 3: all these things in ways that will actually you know,

722
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 3: allow a Maria to compete better in the twenty first century.

723
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 3: And and none of the they're not even paying lip

724
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 3: service to that, right. All they're there to do is

725
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 3: deregulate AI and crypto and like real frankly, like that

726
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 3: like that is what cash. It's like a smash once

727
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 3: out of this and they're getting it right, like we

728
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 3: are not, Like the dj is no longer investigating crypto scammers,

729
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 3: Like there's not a real effort you know, to regularly

730
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 3: to AI. The Elon's positions a little more complicated on that,

731
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 3: but but in Reason's position as clear, like wanting total

732
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 3: deregulation of AI so that they can have you know,

733
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 3: that power for themselves, and and that that's just like unfortunately,

734
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 3: that's just like the reality of what we're dealing with

735
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 3: with these guys.

736
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's absolutely right, is why I always I

737
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 2: thought that the project needed to be opposed on principle,

738
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 2: because having the richest man on the planet unelected and

739
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 2: given vast control over the entire federal government is just

740
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 2: even if even if he did have worthy goals, which

741
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 2: he doesn't, but even if he did have like goals

742
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 2: that I thought were noble and could be good, I

743
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 2: think that project has to be opposed in principle because

744
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 2: of the damage that it does to our democracy and

745
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 2: because you know, we don't want to be ruled by

746
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 2: oligarchs and there you know, have to deal with their

747
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 2: conflicts of interest and wonder whether or not whatever they're

748
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 2: doing at the FAA has to do with modernizing the system,

749
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 2: or whether it has to do with like stealing a

750
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 2: contract from Verizon, which.

751
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 5: Is something that SpaceX is accused of doing while they're

752
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 5: in there.

753
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 4: Starlink.

754
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that's exactly right.

755
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:37,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a great report from from Jeff Stein

756
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 2: at the Washington Post about all of that. All right,

757
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 2: let's talk a little bit about you, Tim, so we

758
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:45,919
Speaker 2: can put your book jacket up on the screen, which

759
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 2: I really recommended people, you know, wherever you are on

760
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 2: the ideological spectrum, I think it gives a really great

761
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 2: insight into like the very particular DC mindset of political operatives.

762
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 2: The headline here is why we did it, Travel from

763
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 2: the Republican Road to Hell. And you wrote this about,

764
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 2: you know, your own journey from being inside the you know,

765
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 2: the belly of the Visa and the Republican Party working for

766
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 2: Jeb Bush, Mitt Romney, John Huntsman, you know, working for

767
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: some dark money groups as well into being a very

768
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 2: vocal Trump critic. So just sketch out for our audience

769
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 2: who may not know all of your background, a little

770
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 2: bit of like what you were up to and what

771
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 2: it was about Trump that really, you know, turned you

772
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 2: off and made you into this very vocal critic.

773
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 4: Well, I appreciate that.

774
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 3: As some folks came to me to ask me to

775
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 3: write a burn book, like mean girl style about all

776
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 3: the people I worked with the Republican Party, and I

777
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 3: was like, that's basically like that wouldn't feel good unless

778
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 3: I also like burned myself a bit on the you know,

779
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 3: And so that was basically how the format for the

780
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 3: book came out. I was like, I'd liked on my

781
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 3: own choices before I started, you know, taking the fire

782
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 3: torch to other people, and look, yeah, I mean I

783
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 3: was in Republican and politics from the time I was

784
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 3: a kid, Like I was my neighbor was a friend

785
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 3: of a guy running for governor of Colorado, and I

786
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 3: was just a political dork. I wanted to be in politics.

787
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 3: I was sixteen years old. I volunteered on that campaign.

788
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 3: I looked like I was twelve. I hadn't gone through

789
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 3: puberty yet. Everybody asked me who my parents were when

790
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 3: I was at the campaign office, and I was like,

791
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 3: I don't know. My dad's that's a you know, working

792
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 3: at his mutual fund. So, you know, I was just

793
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 3: kind of a precocious politics nerd. That guy won the

794
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,919
Speaker 3: governor's race in this very exciting, kind of close late

795
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 3: night race, and I got very addicted to, you know,

796
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 3: kind of the competition of politics.

797
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was just like as a sport, right, Like

798
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 4: it was a sport.

799
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,399
Speaker 3: And so there were some earnest things we could talk about,

800
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 3: Like there was some earnest things that drew me to

801
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 3: the Republican Party over the Democratic Party.

802
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 4: But like pretty.

803
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 3: Quickly I became just kind of like a hired gun, right,

804
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:48,399
Speaker 3: like a hatchet man.

805
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 4: I enjoyed the competition of it.

806
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 3: And you know, I had some directional political beliefs that

807
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 3: you just laid out. The people I worked for. I

808
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 3: worked mostly for the moderate Republicans. I have a few

809
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,040
Speaker 3: people that I worked for that are on my shame

810
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 3: list that I did, you know, because you have you know,

811
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 3: if you're a political operative, sometimes you got to take clients,

812
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 3: but you don't have to you sometimes you choose to

813
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 3: take clients in order to help yourself succeed. So you know,

814
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 3: that was basically my background. And then Trump comes along,

815
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 3: and honestly, it just was not a close call for me,

816
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 3: and he was just so far beyond the pale. His

817
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 3: rhetoric around immigrants in particular was you know, my red line.

818
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 3: But like even you know, beyond that, like he just

819
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 3: did not appeal to me in any possible sense of

820
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 3: the word. He was anethical to the earnest parts of

821
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 3: why I became a Republican. And so, you know, after

822
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 3: Jeb lost, I got asked by some of those dark

823
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 3: money guys you mentioned, to be the point the spokesperson

824
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 3: for a group opposing Trump, and I did it without

825
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 3: really even thinking about the consequences. Honestly, Jeb and my

826
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 3: dad both said to me, like, you're being crazy.

827
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:53,720
Speaker 4: What if Trump wins?

828
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 3: I was like, through whatever you know I got, I

829
00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 3: don't know, he can't win, and so bad judgment there, maybe,

830
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 3: But do you think.

831
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 2: If you had thought he was gonna win, do you

832
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:04,359
Speaker 2: think you would have?

833
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 3: I wouldne I was very much in comic Cozi mode.

834
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 3: I found Trump repellent, and so I always say that

835
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 3: whenever sometimes I get liberals will come up to me

836
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 3: or Democrats, longtime democrats particually like older mother figures, and

837
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 3: they'll be like, I'm so proud of you, like you

838
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 3: did the right thing, and I'm like, I actually don't

839
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 3: like I feel uncomfortable at that compliment because honestly, if

840
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 3: it was Ted Cruz, I don't know, it would have

841
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 3: been a closer call for me, Like I might have

842
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,879
Speaker 3: gone along with it, you know, I don't.

843
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 4: I don't know.

844
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 3: My husband might have divorced me, so I might not

845
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 3: have done it because of him. But Trump was Trump

846
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 3: was something unique about Trump that that I just thought

847
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 3: everything about him, from his personal life to his ideology.

848
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 3: To spoke about immigrantsly spoke about people was just unacceptable

849
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 3: to me. And so you know, so I dove in immediately.

850
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 3: I was I was one of the ogs on the

851
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 3: never Trumper side.

852
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, to be honest with you, some of

853
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 2: what she just said in Trump one point zero, I

854
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 2: would have been a little resistant to like the idea

855
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 2: that he was this particularly unique threat. And then it

856
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 2: wasn't just sort of like you know, revulsion, oh the

857
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 2: norms and oh he's uncouth and whatever. But in this way,

858
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 2: you know, I also think I've politically evolved recently to

859
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: feel like, you know, the liberals who were like really

860
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 2: concerned about the norms and really concerned about the rhetoric

861
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,240
Speaker 2: and really concerned about his character, they had a point.

862
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 5: They had a point, like.

863
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 2: The most deranged Trump derangement syndrome person ends up looking

864
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 2: like they were kind of mild. Yeah, in comparison to

865
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 2: what has unfolded. And you know, I was really raising

866
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: an alarm in advance of this election, I thought because

867
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 2: he I thought that he would be in basically yolo mode.

868
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 2: The Supreme Court had given him complete and total immunity effectively,

869
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 2: and they had spent four years trying to figure out

870
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 2: how to move out of the way any even moderate

871
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 2: guardrail that had kept him even somewhat hemmed in in

872
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 2: the first administration, and even I have been horrified and

873
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 2: shocked by the speed of the dissent in this particular administration.

874
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,839
Speaker 2: So you know, I certainly, I certainly have also tried

875
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 2: to learn from what is unfolded and you know, evolve

876
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 2: in my own political views. Let me ask you to

877
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,439
Speaker 2: respond to what the haters would say about you, which

878
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: is that you know you previously you were doing what

879
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 2: she needed to do and saying what she needed to

880
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 2: say in order to serve the Republican side and your

881
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,959
Speaker 2: Republican bosses. And now are you just doing the same

882
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 2: thing to serve you know, your your liberal audience and

883
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 2: to appeal to the MSNBC folks that you're speaking to

884
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 2: on a regular basis.

885
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 4: I love talking to the haters.

886
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 3: That's fine, No, I mean, look, so just on the

887
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,720
Speaker 3: money side of things, not that I'm doing great, I'm fine,

888
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 3: but like the amount of money the people around Trump

889
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 3: are making right now is going to shock the conscience.

890
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 3: I mean, like Jason Miller also opposed Trump, like me,

891
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 3: initially he was with Ted Cruz as a JEB but

892
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 3: forgot got Jason Miller and he posted Trump said Kelly

893
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 3: and Jason Miller just got a contract from India that's

894
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 3: like one hundred thousand dollars a month or something, or

895
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 3: I forgot. I don't have in front of me a

896
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty thousand dollars a month maybe, And so

897
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 3: you know, I'm not bringing in that much on YouTube.

898
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 3: I'm telling you we're doing okay. And so I'm not

899
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 3: looking for sympathy. But like, the way to whatever I

900
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 3: do well in the Trump Republican Party was to stay.

901
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 3: And a lot of my friends have have, you know,

902
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 3: expanded their houses.

903
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 4: Well, a lot of my former friends have them.

904
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 3: So you know there's that I hear what you're saying,

905
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 3: and I think, look, anybody that is in the business

906
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,399
Speaker 3: of talking about the news, I'm sure you guys think

907
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 3: about this. We especially in this day and age, you

908
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 3: see what your audience likes and doesn't like. You know,

909
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 3: even if you don't read the comments, you see it

910
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 3: in the metrics, right, And so I understand that people

911
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 3: would be skeptical of all this, But I really I've

912
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 3: I tried my very best to just say what I

913
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 3: want with what I think, and I only care about

914
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 3: what I care about and not be pretend outrage about

915
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 3: things I'm not outraged about. And you know, and during

916
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 3: the campaign in twenty twenty four, people were very upset

917
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,439
Speaker 3: at us over our thoughts about Joe Biden, which maybe

918
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 3: we can talk about in a second.

919
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 4: I was horrified by Joe Biden.

920
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 3: And I have not The Bowler audience is pretty bideny,

921
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 3: you know, center left folks. So like, there are a

922
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,399
Speaker 3: lot of big Biden fans. To the extent that big

923
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 3: Biden fans exist, a lot of them were.

924
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 4: Bowler consumers of them.

925
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 3: Ola, Yeah, a lot of them were unhappy with my

926
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 3: views on him, and I just I didn't move an inch.

927
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 3: If anything, it radicalized me more because I was like,

928
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 3: screw you guys. I was like, are you kidding me?

929
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 3: Are you saying this? I I you know, I was

930
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 3: pressured into lying on behalf of Trump back when I

931
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 3: was a Republican, and I refuse to do it. And

932
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 3: now I've opposed Trump, and you're trying to bully me

933
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:53,760
Speaker 3: into you know, arguing, you know, trying to tell people

934
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,720
Speaker 3: that to not believe their lying eyes about Joe Biden.

935
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 4: Like, no, I'm not going to do that. I I.

936
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 3: So, you know, look, I mean I think that we're

937
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 3: doing the best we can to give people what we

938
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 3: honestly think every day. I think that there's no doubt

939
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 3: in the YouTube game, you know this. You know sometimes

940
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 3: that the little thumbnail has to be a little a

941
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 3: little more crazy. Yeah, but that's just like part of

942
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 3: doing all this and so you know, I mean, I

943
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 3: think that there's a little bit of that, and that's

944
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 3: probably a fair criticism for my haters.

945
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 4: But no, I'm not. I'm not changing my views on anything.

946
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 2: Have you have you ideologically, like do you see your

947
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 2: political views your political ideology as having.

948
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 5: Shifted or yeah, just talk a little bit about that.

949
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 3: How would you just yesterday as that I've gone fully

950
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 3: native with the left, and so I was like, I

951
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 3: was hoping Emily is gonna be on today so we

952
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 3: could hash that out.

953
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 2: I was going to say, well, I'm hoping, I mean,

954
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 2: that's the whole reason you're here, so I can win

955
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 2: you over to being a social democrat.

956
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 5: By the end, Bill Crystal.

957
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 4: Might be full social democrat. But that's for another day now.

958
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 6: I know that.

959
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 5: Actually him and Nicole Wallace, I'm.

960
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 3: Like, okay, yeah, you know, look, I've changed on some things.

961
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 3: I guess I'll just say this first. Yeah, when I

962
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 3: said I was ernest to get into politics, I was,

963
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 3: and I was a bush kid. I was like the

964
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 3: compassionate conservative thing, which Crystal maybe you saw through the

965
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 3: way I saw through a Trump. I believed it, like

966
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 3: I really did. And obviously the Iraq War it's you know,

967
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 3: it's eventually I got disillusioned by it, but initially, like

968
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 3: as a kid, as a high school kid, I believed it.

969
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 3: And I was radicalized by the Elian Gonzales thing. I

970
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 3: was like one of my first political awakenings. So I

971
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 3: was like, I was four people coming to this country.

972
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 3: I believed the land of milk and honey, Reagan, you know,

973
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 3: shining city on the hill, stuff like that was what moved.

974
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 4: Me as a kid and drew me to the Republican Party.

975
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 3: And so when you see the Janet Reno thugs like

976
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 3: putting a gun in front of the kid's face who

977
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 3: was playing communism, that was like a thing that got me.

978
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 4: Excited when I was young.

979
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 3: And it's that, you know, confirmed for me that whatever

980
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 3: I'll be on the side of the compassionate conservatives, whatever you.

981
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 4: Want to call it.

982
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 3: So to me in a lot of ways, like the

983
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 3: Trump movement is a total rejection of the things that

984
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 3: brought me into the Republican Party. You know, like I

985
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 3: was into like the kind of altruistic jingoism rather than

986
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 3: this like horrible cruel jingoism that they have now. And

987
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 3: and you know, so I think the core of the

988
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 3: Trump movement is anacthical to what what brought me to

989
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 3: being a Republican. That said, once you're freed from you know,

990
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 3: I think it's like anybody, right, if there are a

991
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 3: few issues that you really care about, and then if

992
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 3: you're in a party, a lot of people, particularly political

993
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 3: junkies or operatives, kind of like sign up for the

994
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 3: rest of the stuff.

995
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:36,399
Speaker 4: Like that's a pretty common thing.

996
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 3: And so I think that there were a couple of things,

997
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 3: and the two that jumped to my mind right now

998
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 3: are taxes on the wealthy and guns. Like there are

999
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 3: two things in particular that I was kind of just

1000
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 3: signing up for the program on that was not what

1001
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 3: I was really there for. That I've like kind of

1002
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 3: changed a heart on, right, and that I'm like, Okay,

1003
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 3: now that I've had some distance from it, I'm like,

1004
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 3: it's some of the stuff is crazy, right, And so

1005
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 3: you know, I have changed my views in a couple

1006
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,760
Speaker 3: of things, for sure. But I also think that Trump

1007
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 3: ran as a rejection of the kind of Republican politics

1008
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 3: I liked, right, So it shouldn't be that surprising. Then

1009
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 3: to me, it's more surprising that there aren't more mes

1010
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 3: and mortical walls.

1011
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 4: I mean, I literally ran as a rejection of us.

1012
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 2: Were rejected in a sense, yes, But also you know,

1013
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,800
Speaker 2: if you look at the first Trump administration, his big

1014
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 2: accomplishment is the tax cut for the rich, you know,

1015
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 2: very George W. Bush, like very Ronald Reaganlake. And the

1016
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 2: other thing I wanted to ask you about is I

1017
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 2: think the people that I have the most difficult time

1018
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 2: with the transition are the people who were most vocal

1019
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 2: in supporting George W. Bush's constitutional abuses, you know, indefinite

1020
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 2: detention and torture and Guantanamo Bay. And I am thinking of, like,

1021
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 2: you know, Bill Crystal and David from Nicole Wallace, because

1022
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 2: to me, there's such a direct line from that to

1023
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,320
Speaker 2: where we are now. And I'm not saying that they're

1024
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 2: the same. I think Trump has taken the legal protectual

1025
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 2: justifications of the Bush era in particular, and has expanded

1026
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,359
Speaker 2: and radicalized on them aggressively. But you know, the whole

1027
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 2: thing of shipping people off to this foreign goolag with

1028
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 2: no due process is like, well, they're terrorists, so we

1029
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 2: can do whatever we want with them. The whole thing

1030
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 2: of arresting students and you know, deporting them because they

1031
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 2: ride in our ed God forbid, is same thing. Well,

1032
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 2: we see them as supporting terrorists, so we can just

1033
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 2: do what we want with them, no due process. And

1034
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: so do you do you feel like there have has

1035
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 2: been any grappling you were you were young, we're actually

1036
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 2: basically like the same age.

1037
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 5: I think we're both forty three.

1038
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,720
Speaker 4: But in any case, do you think aging mate publicly

1039
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 4: on the YouTube? Can we cut?

1040
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 5: I'm the wiki?

1041
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:50,319
Speaker 2: All right, listen, But do you think that there has

1042
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 2: been a grappling with the way that that abuse of

1043
00:48:55,719 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 2: the constitution leads directly to similar more expanded Trumpian abuses

1044
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 2: of the constitution?

1045
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:04,879
Speaker 4: Probably not enough.

1046
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 3: And I'll ask David from this question the next time

1047
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:08,720
Speaker 3: he's on the Board podcast.

1048
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 4: And see what he says about it. Probably not enough.

1049
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 4: I don't know. It's funny.

1050
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 3: I get this this criticism from sometimes Glenn Greenwald likes

1051
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 3: to tweet at me and be like he was a Bushy.

1052
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, Like I'm happy. I have plenty of

1053
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 3: sins that I'm happy to try to atone for. But

1054
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 3: I was hitting the bong okay during Guantanamo in college,

1055
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 3: like I was not.

1056
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 4: I was not part of the administration. I was not

1057
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 4: even really paying that quotes of attention.

1058
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 3: I was partying, so like you know, and frankly, this

1059
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 3: was one of those issues that I would put alongside

1060
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 3: the ones I mentioned earlier with guns in Texas, where

1061
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 3: I was like casually for Guantanamo. I guess, which is

1062
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 3: wrong as somebody that was not involved in politics, but

1063
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 3: I took a pretty radical shift against it, you know,

1064
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 3: late in the Bush term. I remember getting into a

1065
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 3: big fight with my parents over this one Thanksgiving. I

1066
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 3: remember getting to a big fight with my friend Jamie

1067
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 3: Kirchik maybe on the show about this sometime in the

1068
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 3: late Bush administration, and uh and and John McCain really

1069
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 3: changed my views on a lot of this stuff, who

1070
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,919
Speaker 3: you know, to his credit, based on his experience, really

1071
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 3: spoke out quite passionately against the Bush administration's policies when

1072
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 3: it really didn't benefit him. That much politically, So I

1073
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 3: think that that's a totally fair criticism. I think some

1074
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 3: people have grappled with it more than others. But uh,

1075
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 3: you know, I don't. You haven't seen a really kind

1076
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 3: of I can't at least think of one like kind

1077
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 3: of a full throated, you know, reflection upon the degree

1078
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 3: to which some of the civil liberties abuses during you know,

1079
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 3: the Iraq War and the associated kind of war on terror.

1080
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 3: I guess you know what drew a little bit of

1081
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 3: a pretext for what we're seeing now, and I think

1082
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 3: it's a fara critique.

1083
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 2: Last question for you, and then we can talk a

1084
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 2: little bit about Biden. Then I know you have to

1085
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 2: you have to run. But you talk a lot. It

1086
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 2: was we're goody, okay, you don't have heard out?

1087
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 5: Okay, good?

1088
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 4: Great.

1089
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 2: You talk a lot in your book about the various

1090
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 2: characters like you have different sort of archetypes of the

1091
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 2: flavors of justification that people used, who went from you know,

1092
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 2: being sort of repelled by Trump like you were, to

1093
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 2: being in his inner circle, having positions of power, going

1094
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:24,879
Speaker 2: on TV and justifying every last thing that he does

1095
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 2: up to and now including sending people for life into

1096
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 2: foreign goologs from which there is no escape, with literally

1097
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 2: zero due process based on a tattoo that' says mom

1098
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:37,959
Speaker 2: and dad as one example. I was curious if if

1099
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 2: you have any updated archetypes, like, is there a difference

1100
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 2: between the Trump one point zero personnel who sometimes had

1101
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 2: this like, oh well, if I wasn't there, then someone

1102
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 2: else would be and I'm raining things in and had

1103
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 2: those sorts of psychological justifications versus Trump two point Oh.

1104
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 2: It really does feel like it's like the true believers

1105
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 2: who are who are all in at this point.

1106
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question. You're putting on the spot

1107
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 3: a little bit, because I do think it's different. And

1108
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 3: my one kind of self criticism of the book is

1109
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 3: I wasn't really planning on Trump coming back, and so

1110
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 3: it does feel like a little bit dated, like we

1111
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 3: were like reading some of it, because it's like, man,

1112
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,720
Speaker 3: some of the people who had these really complex rationalizations

1113
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 3: the first time around are pretty much full bore this time.

1114
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:25,400
Speaker 3: I guess I would say that the updated rationale is

1115
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 3: really based on what I guess I would call it amnesia.

1116
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 3: I guess I would have the amnich the Trump amnesia

1117
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 3: category this time, probably, which is really just focusing on

1118
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 3: the biggest picture view of the Trump first administration, like, well,

1119
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 3: you know, there was a lot of crazy stuff day

1120
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 3: to day, but like the things, you know, our democracy

1121
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 3: didn't totally collapse, right, the economy generally got went the

1122
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:58,320
Speaker 3: right direction until COVID. He was like basically right about

1123
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 3: some of the COVID stuff, right like this. I'm sure

1124
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 3: you hear all this from friends where it's like, none

1125
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:03,879
Speaker 3: of that.

1126
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 4: Is really right.

1127
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 3: I mean, like we we got we got through it

1128
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 3: by the skin of our teeth, right. I mean, I

1129
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 3: think that many of the people who give the Anesia defense, Now,

1130
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 3: if you brought them, if you went back in time

1131
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 3: to twenty fifteen and brought them a newspaper with a

1132
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 3: picture of what happened on January sixth and said you

1133
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,879
Speaker 3: will support this, they would tell you have trumped Arrangement Center.

1134
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 4: I mean, you're crazy.

1135
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 3: But now they would say, no, you have trumped arrangement

1136
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,879
Speaker 3: center for acting like that was such a big deal,

1137
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 3: Like it was a little it was bad. Yeah, it

1138
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 3: was bad, but it wasn't as bad as you guys say.

1139
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 3: You're obsessed with it, you know. So I think that

1140
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:35,879
Speaker 3: there is just an on COVID right, they're like, well,

1141
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 3: they focus more on how there was some overreach on

1142
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 3: the left, which I agree with on some of the

1143
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 3: COVID rules, or they focus on the discussion about the

1144
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 3: wet market versus you know, whether it was from the

1145
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 3: lab right, and there's again there's some legit points here,

1146
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,240
Speaker 3: but then they don't focus on the anti vax stuff

1147
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:57,840
Speaker 3: or the or the way that Trump downplayed it for

1148
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 3: so long, or like all the other like the Ze

1149
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 3: Prescott right.

1150
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 4: So I do think that there's a little bit of.

1151
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 3: Rationale now that's based on kind of like people's memories

1152
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:09,320
Speaker 3: fading and like trying to tell a story of the

1153
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 3: Trump one point zero that's better than it was, and

1154
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 3: telling a story of the Biden administration that's like the

1155
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 3: worst possible story you could tell about it, rather than

1156
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 3: a a more clear eyed version of what its strengths

1157
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 3: and weaknesses were.

1158
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 2: Well, that's a good transition to talk about the latest

1159
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 2: news with regard to Biden.

1160
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 5: We can put this up on the screen.

1161
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 2: So Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson are coming out with

1162
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 2: a book that's kind of meant to be like a

1163
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 2: tell all of you know, what was going on on

1164
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 2: the inside and who knew what and when with regard

1165
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,839
Speaker 2: to Biden's significant decline, and the big scoop that's out

1166
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 2: this morning is that his physical deterioration, most apparent is

1167
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 2: halting walk had become so severe that there were internal

1168
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 2: discussions about putting the president in a wheelchair, but they

1169
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 2: couldn't do so until after the election. And I mean,

1170
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 2: I I do want to say, like his physical deterioration

1171
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 2: was not really my concern. The mental deterioration was more

1172
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 2: of the concern. But you know, this is of a

1173
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 2: piece with the decline that we were all watching, and

1174
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 2: as you said, you know, the Democratic Party was asking

1175
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 2: us and much of the media too, by the way,

1176
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 2: was asking us not to believe our lying eyes at

1177
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 2: this point. And I think there's again a direct line

1178
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 2: between Biden deciding to run no one within the mainstream

1179
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 2: Democratic Party really you know, challenging him. You did have

1180
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 2: Dean Phillips jump in there. You had Mary and Williamson

1181
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 2: in the race as well, but they blocked even having

1182
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 2: primary contests in a number of states, so there was

1183
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 2: really no chance for anyone to succeed. Direct line from

1184
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 2: that to the reelection of Donald Trump and the world

1185
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 2: that we now live in.

1186
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I had to do my Dean phillips Man culpa

1187
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:49,879
Speaker 3: a couple months ago because you know, I still stand

1188
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 3: by I don't think the way he prosecuted his campaign

1189
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 3: was the most effective, but I was a little too

1190
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 3: mean to him because the premise of his campaign was correct,

1191
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 3: and you know it was then later the summer was

1192
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 3: very clear to me that that.

1193
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:01,240
Speaker 4: Was the case.

1194
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:03,839
Speaker 3: And look, I don't I'm with you. I don't care

1195
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,840
Speaker 3: that much about the wheelchair like whatever. But to me,

1196
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 3: it's just one part of this broader thing, which is

1197
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:14,320
Speaker 3: regardless of what you think about some of the smaller

1198
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 3: arguments about whether Biden should have stuck around and the

1199
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 3: debate and whether he could have done it, and whether

1200
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 3: he could do the job, or how much had he

1201
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 3: really declined? Was it just one to right, regardless of

1202
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 3: all that, Like, to me, the biggest possible picture is

1203
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:31,279
Speaker 3: it was ridiculous for them to try to sell us

1204
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 3: on the fact that Joe Biden could be president in.

1205
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 4: Four years from now when he's eighties. It was ridiculous.

1206
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 4: It was a ridiculous proposition.

1207
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 3: The American people saw through it, and we all saw

1208
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 3: it with our own eyes on the debate stage, and

1209
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 3: the fact that it took them so long to then

1210
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,919
Speaker 3: come around to it, and the fact that then even

1211
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 3: once they did, you know, we had to have the

1212
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:58,680
Speaker 3: Biden tribute day at the Komal Convention, and then she

1213
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 3: was pressured to not do distance from him, and like

1214
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 3: all this sort of stuff. To me, I really think

1215
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 3: their actions have been shameful, absolutely shameful in the last year,

1216
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:13,360
Speaker 3: and and it makes me very upset actually, And so

1217
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 3: I don't even know. I hope Jake and Alex are

1218
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 3: not watching this. I keep going over my head. I'm like,

1219
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 3: can I even have Jake and Alex on the podcast?

1220
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 3: Mostly because it makes me so mad. I kind of

1221
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 3: just want to pretend I just want to move forward.

1222
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 3: So I probably will, because you know, you have to

1223
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 3: grapple with this sort of stuff. But it makes me

1224
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 3: so upset that, you know, they're asking a lot of

1225
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 3: other people to sacrifice and then not and then not

1226
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 3: doing it, not only not sacrificing themselves, but really making

1227
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 3: an extremely self decision. And I say they because it

1228
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 3: was really the full family and his closest advisors made

1229
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 3: a decision that was very, very selfish. And we're dealing

1230
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 3: with the consequences. And I wouldn't say he's the number

1231
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 3: one reason we have Trump right now. I definitely would

1232
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 3: put that on Mitch McConnell and the Republican senators. It

1233
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 3: didn't convict him after January sixth, when they all knew

1234
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 3: they should have.

1235
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 4: But he certainly plays a role.

1236
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, very central role, very central role. And listen,

1237
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 2: like Kamala Harris could have decided to distance herself from him,

1238
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 2: even in spite of the fact that he pressured her

1239
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 2: not to. But it does just show a level of

1240
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 2: ego and selfishness to your point, that is quite extraordinary.

1241
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 2: I remember him making some comment at the time in

1242
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 2: an interview. He was asked, well, what happens if you

1243
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 2: lose Trump? He's like, well, as long as I tried

1244
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 2: my best, it'll be fine. It's like, I mean, this

1245
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 2: guy's a fascist.

1246
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:36,520
Speaker 3: Like this, I'm doing a work beach vacation there. I

1247
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 3: was going to a mat Gates event in the in

1248
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 3: the Panhandle, but also my family was at the beach

1249
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 3: and I went out back to the beach to watch

1250
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 3: that interview. I mean, you're triggering me right now just

1251
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 3: thinking about it. I was so enraged. Yeah, I don't

1252
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 3: know if I've ever been mad or at somebody. And

1253
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 3: also to do the thing where it's like our democracy

1254
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 3: is on the line.

1255
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 2: Right And also you know, as I get a participation

1256
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 2: award for trying my bests, it's like, no, it's not

1257
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 2: good enough.

1258
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 5: You have to win. You have to win.

1259
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 2: And if you aren't the person to do that, you

1260
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 2: needed to have stepped aside a year ago so that

1261
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 2: you know, someone who was more able could carry the torch.

1262
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 2: And I guess the big question is if they've learned

1263
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 2: from this, and I think some have and some haven't.

1264
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 2: This is, you know, in the context of so David

1265
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 2: Hogg was elected vice chair of the DNC And you know, David,

1266
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 2: first of all, I think is very impressive in terms

1267
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 2: of there aren't a lot of Democrats who really understand

1268
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 2: new media, know how to grab attention whatever. Just on

1269
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 2: that metric, he's very effective. But also he's obviously really

1270
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 2: trying to shake things up within the party. He was

1271
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 2: on with Bill Maher this past weekend and made some

1272
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 2: comments that he doesn't mention the name Jim Clyburn, but

1273
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 2: this is clearly directed at Jim Clyburn, who previously you

1274
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 2: made some statement about like what do they want me

1275
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 2: to do or resign and my life from Congress. So

1276
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 2: this sparked a lot of dialogue within the Democratic Party.

1277
00:59:57,840 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 2: Let's go and take a listen to a little bit

1278
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 2: of David's home David hog here on Bill Maher.

1279
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 10: What I'm trying to do with this initiative with Leaders

1280
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 10: we Deserve, the organization that we're working with, is to

1281
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 10: challenge democrats that we feel like are failing to meet

1282
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 10: the moment in safe congressional seats that don't risk us

1283
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 10: losing the House and say to them, look, nobody is

1284
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 10: entitled to their position of power, because ultimately, the positions

1285
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 10: of power in this country don't belong to any member

1286
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 10: of Congress that is out there. They belong to the

1287
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 10: people that vote them into office. Part of what happens

1288
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 10: in politics is people want to do two things at

1289
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 10: the same time that are incompatible. They want to keep

1290
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 10: the same people in the positions of power that they're

1291
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 10: in that are individually beneficial to them, and they want

1292
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 10: to get back to winning. But we're not going to

1293
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 10: be able to do that with the same cast of

1294
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:37,240
Speaker 10: characters that got us here. And the answer to that

1295
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 10: is to use democracy within our own party to give

1296
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 10: voters the option of voting for somebody new, so that

1297
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 10: they at least.

1298
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 4: Have the opportion. So you want to get rid of

1299
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 4: the dead would.

1300
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 10: Effectively yes, but it's not just a matter of age,

1301
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 10: to be clear. Of course, there's been a few members

1302
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 10: that have come out that have said, well, you know,

1303
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 10: if I retire, my life is effectively over. And what

1304
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 10: I would say is, get over yourself. This isn't about you.

1305
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 10: This is about our country, about your constituents. Nobody is

1306
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 10: in too. I don't care if you've been there for

1307
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 10: decades or just one term. That seat is not yours.

1308
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 10: It is your constituents. That is who we were there

1309
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 10: to serve. And if they choose to serve somebody else,

1310
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 10: so be it. That's all what all we're trying to

1311
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 10: do with leaders we deserve.

1312
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:16,040
Speaker 2: So the quote that he's referencing there put the next

1313
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 2: piece up on the screen is this from Jim cliber

1314
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 2: and he said, Nancy left her seat, Stanny left his seat.

1315
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 5: I left my seat. What the hell am I supposed

1316
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 5: to do?

1317
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:23,360
Speaker 3: Now?

1318
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 5: What do you want me to give up my life?

1319
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 5: And so Cliburn and.

1320
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:30,840
Speaker 2: Say listen, we step back from our leadership positions. But

1321
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 2: you know, he continues to hold the seat and run

1322
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:35,479
Speaker 2: for reelection, and that appears to be what David Hogg

1323
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 2: is referencing here. What do you think of what David

1324
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 2: Hogg is trying to do with the DNC and also

1325
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:41,840
Speaker 2: the pushback that he's received for it.

1326
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, we might finally get to our disagreement in the

1327
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 4: last block. I don't know. I think everybody can get

1328
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:50,440
Speaker 4: over themselves in this story. I don't know the David

1329
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 4: Hog thing.

1330
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:54,880
Speaker 3: Like if David Hogg had not run for DNC vice

1331
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 3: chair and decided to start a group that was primary

1332
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 3: older Democrat and saying we want to get new youthful

1333
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 3: Democrats in and it's it's ideologically, I don't care, Like

1334
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:10,120
Speaker 3: maybe it's in some this scenarios it's a Dan Osborne type.

1335
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:13,040
Speaker 3: Maybe it's a moderate bulwark type. Maybe it's a d

1336
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 3: s A type, Like I'm okay with that program. That's

1337
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 3: a good program getting a younger, you know, more diverse

1338
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 3: both you know, ideologically and you know racially, uh group

1339
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 3: of people into the party. Like I'd be for all that.

1340
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 3: But he decided to run for DNC vice chair right.

1341
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 3: And to me, this is like the thing about all

1342
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:36,200
Speaker 3: this about how just pathetically incompetent the d n C.

1343
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:40,000
Speaker 4: As and I do, like I look at the story

1344
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 4: and it's just like, you know, there.

1345
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 3: Are conspiracy theories out there about how the d n

1346
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 3: C is like orchestrating things, like the DNC can't orchestrate

1347
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 3: a two car parade, Like the DNC can't do anything.

1348
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 3: It was insane for them to put somebody who was

1349
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 3: vastly more famous and to your point, vastly more uh uh,

1350
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 3: you know, kind of online and in the public eye

1351
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:05,480
Speaker 3: than the chairman as vice chair and and and have

1352
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 3: him be a total loose cannon Like what was like

1353
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:10,680
Speaker 3: what is the point of that? Like what was the

1354
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 3: like what did they think that they were going to get?

1355
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:15,280
Speaker 3: And so you know, now you have somebody in the

1356
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 3: DNC who's like firing you know, inside the house and

1357
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 3: going on too Bill Maher and going onto all these

1358
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:24,000
Speaker 3: shows and like critiquing other people within the party. Like

1359
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 3: that's not the job of the dncvice share. It could

1360
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 3: be a job of an outside group that wants to

1361
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 3: do this, but it's not his job on the inside.

1362
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 3: And so now like the DNC rather than focusing on

1363
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:36,720
Speaker 3: what they should be focusing on, which is how to

1364
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 3: beat as many Republicans as possible in the midterms. They

1365
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 3: have this internal firing squad going on, and they're having

1366
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:44,920
Speaker 3: a struggle session about, you know, whether the gender balance

1367
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 3: is right. I mean, it's like the most pathetic, embarrassing

1368
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 3: organization that I've ever seen. And and so to me,

1369
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 3: like that's my takeaway from the story is that like

1370
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 3: these the eye is not on the ball for basically

1371
01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 3: any of the characters in this story.

1372
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 2: See, I hear what you're saying, but I would say

1373
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 2: that I support the internal firing squad, and I think

1374
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 2: the lack of an internal firing squad is exactly how

1375
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 2: Democrats ended up as pathetic and losing as many races

1376
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 2: as they did, because what did we hear when it

1377
01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:16,160
Speaker 2: was Biden, It was, Oh, we can't have a primary,

1378
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:18,720
Speaker 2: we can't be critiquing each other, we don't want the

1379
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 2: internal firing squad. Everybody's got to you know, stay unified

1380
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 2: and stay united and not criticize each other. And in

1381
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:28,440
Speaker 2: the end that ends up in disaster. Whereas you know,

1382
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:33,640
Speaker 2: to give the counterpoint, the Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama primary

1383
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 2: was pretty vicious, you know, there was.

1384
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:37,120
Speaker 5: It was raucus.

1385
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:39,200
Speaker 2: You go back and watch, they were taking some real

1386
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 2: shots at each other, and guess what you end up with,

1387
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 2: You know, a candidate who was able to not only win,

1388
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:50,000
Speaker 2: but win handily and run for reelection and win quite

1389
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 2: handily there as well.

1390
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:52,520
Speaker 5: I know you remember that.

1391
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 2: One here because you're on the other side around me

1392
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 2: on that particular campaign. But you know, I hear what

1393
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 2: you're saying about, like maybe the wasn't the place for

1394
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 2: David Hog to be to make his stand, but I

1395
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,640
Speaker 2: think he's thinking about it. Of if you want to

1396
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 2: improve the party, if the goal of the DNC should be,

1397
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:12,760
Speaker 2: to your point, winning races, and part of that is

1398
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:16,920
Speaker 2: rejuvenating this party and making sure we don't have another

1399
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 2: Diane Feinstein cover up or Joe Biden style cover up,

1400
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:22,880
Speaker 2: that we have people who are actually effective and responsive

1401
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:26,480
Speaker 2: and you know, embracing those small de democratic values.

1402
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 4: It's a fair counterpoint. I would support strategic competition.

1403
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 3: I would just say, to me, this looks like a

1404
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:37,400
Speaker 3: total cluster fork, not strategic competition within the party. I

1405
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:41,560
Speaker 3: just don't Again, if what I was seeing from David

1406
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 3: Hogg was hey, I'm recruiting all these new people who

1407
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:48,240
Speaker 3: are you know, going to be the future face of

1408
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:51,960
Speaker 3: the party and are more reflective of working class voters.

1409
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 3: And I'm going into red states and I'm going to

1410
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 3: recruit people that can actually win in these districts. And

1411
01:05:57,320 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 3: you know, we're going to go into deep blue districts.

1412
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:02,240
Speaker 3: We're going to find people that are younger, with more

1413
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 3: vigor to challenge that. Okay, I would be for that,

1414
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:10,280
Speaker 3: but I see mostly like tweets and press releases and

1415
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 3: bickering at James Carville and Jim Clyburn and media appearances.

1416
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 4: So I just I don't know.

1417
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 3: I think competition can be good, but being strategic and

1418
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:21,320
Speaker 3: smart can also be good. And I don't think either

1419
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:25,120
Speaker 3: the DNC or HOG over the past month have demonstrated

1420
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 3: a lot of smarts a strategy.

1421
01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 5: Well, far be it from me to defund the DNC.

1422
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:31,440
Speaker 2: So we can end on that note, Tim, thank you

1423
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 2: so much, and just tell people where they can find

1424
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:34,920
Speaker 2: you and follow your podcast.

1425
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 4: Thanks Chris.

1426
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 3: So yeah, no, check us out with the Bulwark over

1427
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:41,200
Speaker 3: on YouTube, the Borg podcast. You can check us out

1428
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 3: on substack, also the Bulk dot com. And you know

1429
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:48,560
Speaker 3: I'm here in my hole all the time talking, so

1430
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:50,960
Speaker 3: you know, just come find me all right.

1431
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:52,480
Speaker 2: Thank you, Tim, it was great to chat with you.

1432
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:53,240
Speaker 2: I really appreciate it.

1433
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:54,840
Speaker 4: Thanks christ I appreciate having me.

1434
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:00,480
Speaker 2: So we covered a bit yesterday how Trump announced this

1435
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 2: big executive order with regard to prescription drug prices that

1436
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:06,720
Speaker 2: he said was instantly going to reduce all of prescription

1437
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 2: drug prices by thirty to eighty percent. Joining us to

1438
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:14,560
Speaker 2: break down the reality of this executive order is David Saroda,

1439
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:15,440
Speaker 2: founder of The Lover.

1440
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:17,760
Speaker 5: Great to see you, David, Good to see you. Yeah,

1441
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:18,160
Speaker 5: of course.

1442
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:21,080
Speaker 2: So let me go ahead and start with Trump's comments

1443
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:25,200
Speaker 2: at the press conference yesterday, which were quite a bit

1444
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:28,840
Speaker 2: different than the way he had sold this executive.

1445
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:30,480
Speaker 5: Order on prescription drug prices. To start with, let's take

1446
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:31,680
Speaker 5: a listen to that first.

1447
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:35,720
Speaker 6: I'm directing the US Trade Representatives and Department of Commerce

1448
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:40,760
Speaker 6: to begin investigations into foreign nations that extort drug companies

1449
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:45,320
Speaker 6: by blocking their products unless they accept bottom line and

1450
01:07:45,560 --> 01:07:49,120
Speaker 6: very low dollar amounts for their product, unfairly shifting the

1451
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:53,120
Speaker 6: cost burden onto American patients. And we'll be taking a

1452
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:55,320
Speaker 6: look at that very strongly. The biggest thing we're going

1453
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:58,560
Speaker 6: to do is we're going to tell those countries like

1454
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:02,480
Speaker 6: those represented by the European Union that you know, that

1455
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:05,760
Speaker 6: game is up. Sorry, and if they want to get cute,

1456
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:07,800
Speaker 6: then they don't have to sell cars into the United

1457
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:12,919
Speaker 6: States anymore. It's a very big subject, and they won't

1458
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:16,960
Speaker 6: get cute because I'll defend the drug companies. From that standpoint, He's.

1459
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 2: Going to defend the drug companies and force the Europeans

1460
01:08:20,400 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 2: to pay higher prices. That's actually the plan that he's

1461
01:08:23,160 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 2: announcing here.

1462
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:25,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a little weird.

1463
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 11: In that he's saying that America needs a better deal,

1464
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 11: but other countries shouldn't shouldn't be negotiating for a better

1465
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:34,760
Speaker 11: price deal. And I don't really understand the logic there,

1466
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:39,639
Speaker 11: because he's touting the idea that the United States should

1467
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:43,680
Speaker 11: use its power, its purchasing power, its market power to

1468
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 11: get a better deal for Americans, which I actually think

1469
01:08:47,400 --> 01:08:50,920
Speaker 11: most Americans probably agree that it's not fair at all

1470
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:55,600
Speaker 11: that the United States is funding with tax dollars a

1471
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:58,360
Speaker 11: huge amount of the research and development that goes into

1472
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 11: creating lots of medicine across the world, and our return

1473
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:05,200
Speaker 11: on that investment is being forced to pay the highest

1474
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:08,960
Speaker 11: prices in the world. I think his executive order is

1475
01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:15,720
Speaker 11: aimed at pointing out that problem, and it is a problem. Unfortunately,

1476
01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:20,000
Speaker 11: the solution that he's put forward isn't a solution at all.

1477
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 4: And you don't have to trust me.

1478
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:24,639
Speaker 11: You can look at the price of pharmaceutical industry stocks

1479
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:28,439
Speaker 11: on the day that he announced his executive order. They

1480
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:33,880
Speaker 11: actually went up. And so the pharmaceutical industry does not

1481
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:37,760
Speaker 11: think that what Trump is proposing, and it's not even

1482
01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 11: entirely clear what actually that he is proposing, that the

1483
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:45,200
Speaker 11: industry doesn't even see it as anything real at all.

1484
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, actually we can put E two up on the screen.

1485
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:50,280
Speaker 2: Still are tweeted this, But I checked the stock prices

1486
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:51,760
Speaker 2: at the end of the day. They were up even

1487
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:53,880
Speaker 2: more than the Sofizer end of the day up three

1488
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 2: point six. Mark was at four point four, Eli Lilly

1489
01:09:57,400 --> 01:09:59,320
Speaker 2: was up two point eight, Bristol Myers was up three

1490
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:02,560
Speaker 2: point seven, and Santa Fe was up two percent, so

1491
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:05,000
Speaker 2: two point three percent by the end of the day.

1492
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:07,679
Speaker 2: And there are also analysts are putting out guidance saying

1493
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:10,519
Speaker 2: that they do not see this drug pricing executive order

1494
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:14,120
Speaker 2: as a material event, meaning that it doesn't matter at all.

1495
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:15,960
Speaker 2: Let's put E four up on the screen, because you

1496
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:19,800
Speaker 2: break down some of the backstory here over at the lever.

1497
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:23,280
Speaker 2: You say, Trump already disarmed the war on drug prices.

1498
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:26,280
Speaker 2: So not only do we have this executive order that

1499
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 2: doesn't have really any force of law, we have Trump

1500
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:31,400
Speaker 2: saying actually he's going to defend the drug prices. You

1501
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:33,920
Speaker 2: have the stock market reacting in a way that was

1502
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:36,439
Speaker 2: positive for the drug makers ultimately, but we also have

1503
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:39,080
Speaker 2: other signs from the Trump administration that they're not serious

1504
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 2: about this.

1505
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:43,479
Speaker 11: Yeah, So there is one tool in the toolbox that

1506
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:46,519
Speaker 11: the government could use to lower drug prices right now.

1507
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:50,519
Speaker 11: It's part of a long standing law that's been around

1508
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:54,240
Speaker 11: for more than forty years, which says that when the

1509
01:10:54,360 --> 01:11:00,160
Speaker 11: government licenses, when the government funds research and development that

1510
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:04,600
Speaker 11: is turned into, for instance, medicine patented medicines that the

1511
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:09,040
Speaker 11: government can march in. That's the term the government can

1512
01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:16,320
Speaker 11: march in and license to other companies the patents the

1513
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 11: rights to make those drugs if the current producer of

1514
01:11:20,479 --> 01:11:26,040
Speaker 11: the medicine is not offering them on reasonable terms. Essentially,

1515
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:33,439
Speaker 11: if the Americans cannot get access to the innovation that

1516
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:37,439
Speaker 11: their own tax dollars funded. That's been on the books

1517
01:11:37,479 --> 01:11:39,800
Speaker 11: for forty years now. To be clear, it's never been

1518
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 11: invoked so called march in rights, but successive administrations have

1519
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:47,600
Speaker 11: been under pressure to use march in rights under that

1520
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:53,080
Speaker 11: long standing law to say, hey, if you're charging other

1521
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:58,560
Speaker 11: countries one tenth the price for the medicine the taxpayers

1522
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:04,160
Speaker 11: developed and American tax payers essentially don't have or have

1523
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:09,240
Speaker 11: very limited access to the medicines that their taxpayer money,

1524
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:15,040
Speaker 11: their public money supported, we can march in and offer

1525
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:19,679
Speaker 11: the license to other generic drug producers to make lower

1526
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:23,120
Speaker 11: priced versions of the same medicine. Successive administration has been

1527
01:12:23,160 --> 01:12:27,559
Speaker 11: under under pressure to use that power. Unfortunately they haven't

1528
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:32,880
Speaker 11: used that power. The Obama administration rejected Congressional Democrats pressure

1529
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:36,080
Speaker 11: pressure to do that. Donald Trump, to your point, not

1530
01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:39,920
Speaker 11: only didn't use march in rights, Donald Trump tried to

1531
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:46,679
Speaker 11: permanently prevent any future president from ever using those powers. Obviously,

1532
01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:50,920
Speaker 11: the pharmaceutical industry doesn't want any president to use those powers.

1533
01:12:51,200 --> 01:12:54,840
Speaker 11: The Biden administration, it did reject a request to use

1534
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:58,640
Speaker 11: marching rights on one particular drug, but the Biden administration

1535
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 11: also put forward a set of guidelines and rules to

1536
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:06,120
Speaker 11: create more clear ways to use those march In rights.

1537
01:13:06,439 --> 01:13:09,840
Speaker 11: But now here in the present we have Robert F.

1538
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:15,280
Speaker 11: Kennedy Jr. Who initially told people on Capitol Hill that

1539
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:18,479
Speaker 11: he would be interested in using march In rights, but ultimately,

1540
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:23,559
Speaker 11: when put under a confirmation scrutiny, he said, using march

1541
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:26,800
Speaker 11: in rights when drug prices are too high is not

1542
01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:28,800
Speaker 11: something that he is going to do.

1543
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:30,880
Speaker 5: And how does the.

1544
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:34,080
Speaker 2: Biden error reforms They did some modest reforms that allows

1545
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:39,519
Speaker 2: Medicare to negotiate on a handful of prescription drugs.

1546
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:41,000
Speaker 5: How does that play into this?

1547
01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:44,600
Speaker 2: Does that give the Trump administration any potential powers that

1548
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:45,639
Speaker 2: they could expand upon.

1549
01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:50,759
Speaker 11: Well, look, certainly Medicare is a big buyer of prescription drugs,

1550
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:54,640
Speaker 11: has purchasing power to try to negotiate lower prices. The

1551
01:13:54,720 --> 01:14:00,280
Speaker 11: Biden administration program deals with ten particular drugs. It's called

1552
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:04,919
Speaker 11: a formulary. Certainly the Trump administration could push to expand

1553
01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:08,920
Speaker 11: the formulary. It is statutory law. It would have to

1554
01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:14,280
Speaker 11: go to Congress to do that. Medicare can also try

1555
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:19,400
Speaker 11: to essentially demand so called most favored nation pricing. That

1556
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:21,599
Speaker 11: is to say, if you're going to charge a lower

1557
01:14:21,640 --> 01:14:24,559
Speaker 11: price in another country the United States should get access

1558
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:27,679
Speaker 11: to that. There's a question about how could medicare actually

1559
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:33,639
Speaker 11: pressure those prices down for drugs covered by private insurance. Frankly, Crystal,

1560
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:37,720
Speaker 11: it's not really clear what this executive order really is

1561
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:40,800
Speaker 11: beyond Trump saying to RFK and to saying to a

1562
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:43,639
Speaker 11: couple of other agency, you know, go lower the price

1563
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:46,200
Speaker 11: of prescription drugs. But again, I go back to this

1564
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:51,519
Speaker 11: idea that HHS under Trumps has essentially said, we are

1565
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:57,080
Speaker 11: not going to use the one weapon in our arsenal

1566
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:01,400
Speaker 11: march in rights to do any of So when I

1567
01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:05,800
Speaker 11: look at the stock price jump of pharmaceutical stocks, what

1568
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:09,800
Speaker 11: I see is pharmaceutical pharmaceutical industry that was wondering whether

1569
01:15:09,960 --> 01:15:13,679
Speaker 11: marching rights was going to be in this executive order,

1570
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:17,040
Speaker 11: knows that RFK has already said he's not going to

1571
01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:20,519
Speaker 11: use those powers, knows that Trump has tried to permanently

1572
01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:23,080
Speaker 11: prevent any president from using those powers. I see a

1573
01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:26,880
Speaker 11: pharmaceutical industry that says, oh, that's not in the executive order. Well,

1574
01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:30,960
Speaker 11: another example of Trump saying a lot of things, but

1575
01:15:31,439 --> 01:15:34,880
Speaker 11: there's not really anything here that is going to bring

1576
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:37,240
Speaker 11: down the price of medicines in the United States and

1577
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:39,080
Speaker 11: not really anything going to cut into their profits. And

1578
01:15:39,120 --> 01:15:41,559
Speaker 11: I want to make one other point that's really important here.

1579
01:15:42,040 --> 01:15:46,280
Speaker 11: It's not like these drug companies aren't making big profits

1580
01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:50,240
Speaker 11: and revenues in other countries. That's the part that just

1581
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:53,280
Speaker 11: should get to everybody, which is to say, they're they're

1582
01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:57,720
Speaker 11: making profits in Europe, in other industrialized countries when they're

1583
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:02,680
Speaker 11: charging those consumers there one third the price of the

1584
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:06,040
Speaker 11: price that they charge Americans. They're making healthy profits there,

1585
01:16:06,240 --> 01:16:09,600
Speaker 11: which means that what they're doing here is profiteering, and

1586
01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:13,960
Speaker 11: their profiteering off of this is so important. They're profiteering

1587
01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:19,040
Speaker 11: mostly off of medicines that we the public, we the taxpayers,

1588
01:16:19,479 --> 01:16:20,639
Speaker 11: already funded.

1589
01:16:22,280 --> 01:16:23,400
Speaker 5: That is such a great point.

1590
01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:27,200
Speaker 2: And the other thing that I noted yesterday is this

1591
01:16:27,439 --> 01:16:30,880
Speaker 2: is very similar to an executive order that he signed

1592
01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:33,360
Speaker 2: also in the first Trump administration. So I think the

1593
01:16:33,479 --> 01:16:36,040
Speaker 2: other reason why the drug makers have so much confidence

1594
01:16:36,080 --> 01:16:38,320
Speaker 2: that it's not going to matter is because they went

1595
01:16:38,400 --> 01:16:41,519
Speaker 2: to court and successfully were able to enjoin and get

1596
01:16:41,560 --> 01:16:45,360
Speaker 2: an injunction against that executive order, and so they already

1597
01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:48,439
Speaker 2: know effectively how how this story ends. And I suspect

1598
01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:51,880
Speaker 2: Trump also knows how the story ends doesn't really care

1599
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:54,280
Speaker 2: about prescription drug prices, because if he did, he could

1600
01:16:54,280 --> 01:16:57,000
Speaker 2: put pressure on Congress. He has marchin rights that he

1601
01:16:57,080 --> 01:16:59,800
Speaker 2: could use. You've got Bernie Sanders and Rocan out saying, hey,

1602
01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:01,679
Speaker 2: we've got a bill that would do what you want

1603
01:17:01,680 --> 01:17:03,400
Speaker 2: to do. Why didn't you work with us on it?

1604
01:17:03,479 --> 01:17:05,880
Speaker 2: He shows no interest in doing any of that. He

1605
01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:08,479
Speaker 2: just effectively wants the headline here because his poll numbers

1606
01:17:08,479 --> 01:17:10,200
Speaker 2: have been dropping and he wants to distract from the

1607
01:17:10,240 --> 01:17:12,519
Speaker 2: fact that they're also set to do gigantic cuts to

1608
01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:15,400
Speaker 2: medicaid in service of cutting taxes for the rich.

1609
01:17:16,280 --> 01:17:17,160
Speaker 4: That's exactly right.

1610
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:20,840
Speaker 11: I mean, listen, Rocanna has been out there saying, let's

1611
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:23,280
Speaker 11: just take Donald Trump's executive order and put it into

1612
01:17:23,320 --> 01:17:26,800
Speaker 11: statute so that if and when he tries to do,

1613
01:17:26,960 --> 01:17:31,719
Speaker 11: for instance, most favored nation pricing via Medicare, it won't

1614
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:34,120
Speaker 11: be invalidated by a court.

1615
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:36,720
Speaker 4: That's what happened the last time. So let's put it

1616
01:17:36,800 --> 01:17:37,560
Speaker 4: into statute.

1617
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:41,800
Speaker 11: You've got a Republican president, Democrats in Congress willing to

1618
01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:42,959
Speaker 11: put it into statute.

1619
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:43,680
Speaker 4: Let's do that.

1620
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:48,960
Speaker 11: There's no sense that Trump is engaged with Congress at

1621
01:17:49,040 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 11: all to do any of that, so again, I agree

1622
01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:55,679
Speaker 11: with you. It's like a show. It's like a circus.

1623
01:17:55,760 --> 01:17:58,639
Speaker 11: It's like, it's like, let me get a headline. People

1624
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:02,000
Speaker 11: will I guess I mentarily think that at some point

1625
01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:05,160
Speaker 11: in the future, drug prices will come down, and hopefully,

1626
01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:07,240
Speaker 11: I guess the hope is what everyone will forget about this.

1627
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:10,720
Speaker 11: We'll forget that he made this pledge that everyone has

1628
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:14,759
Speaker 11: a goldfish brain forgetting their entire world every fifteen minutes.

1629
01:18:14,800 --> 01:18:17,679
Speaker 11: I mean, I don't think that's really going to work

1630
01:18:17,960 --> 01:18:21,400
Speaker 11: when it comes to something like prescription drug prices, which

1631
01:18:21,520 --> 01:18:26,519
Speaker 11: are a constant, a constant expense for millions and millions

1632
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:27,040
Speaker 11: of Americans.

1633
01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:29,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, some of us have goldfish brains, but you're

1634
01:18:29,160 --> 01:18:31,360
Speaker 2: not one of them. David's already you remember all the details.

1635
01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:32,840
Speaker 2: I had to go back and look up this exactly,

1636
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:35,200
Speaker 2: was like, did you do something similar in the first administration?

1637
01:18:35,760 --> 01:18:36,479
Speaker 5: Before I let you go?

1638
01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:38,960
Speaker 2: We're going to have our June on next week to

1639
01:18:39,080 --> 01:18:42,040
Speaker 2: talk about Tax Revolt, your new podcast series, But just

1640
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:43,760
Speaker 2: give everybody a preview of what you guys have been

1641
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:46,639
Speaker 2: up to, because this is some extraordinary investigative journalism.

1642
01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:50,519
Speaker 11: Yeah, so listen, this week is tax Week in Washington.

1643
01:18:50,600 --> 01:18:53,120
Speaker 11: Donald Trump's tax bill is coming down the pike. A

1644
01:18:53,240 --> 01:18:56,360
Speaker 11: big question are they going to cut taxes on Are

1645
01:18:56,360 --> 01:18:59,799
Speaker 11: they going to essentially make permanent Trump's tax cuts, including

1646
01:18:59,840 --> 01:19:03,479
Speaker 11: tax cuts for billionaires corporations. There's some talk in the

1647
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:06,280
Speaker 11: Republican Party that they're going to try to raise some

1648
01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:10,360
Speaker 11: taxes on millionaires, and I think that's a response to

1649
01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:14,200
Speaker 11: the fact that, according to poll's, seventy percent of Republican

1650
01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:19,160
Speaker 11: voters now want taxes raised on the wealthy. Our series,

1651
01:19:19,280 --> 01:19:21,720
Speaker 11: Tax Revolt, it's an audio series. People can find it

1652
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:25,160
Speaker 11: at levernews dot com slash Tax Revolt. Our new series

1653
01:19:25,479 --> 01:19:28,519
Speaker 11: takes a look at the history of the anti tax movement,

1654
01:19:29,040 --> 01:19:32,200
Speaker 11: where it came from, how it grew into such a

1655
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:37,559
Speaker 11: political force, and as important, why it is potentially fraying

1656
01:19:37,720 --> 01:19:38,960
Speaker 11: right now, which is kind of shocking.

1657
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:39,760
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, the.

1658
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:44,360
Speaker 11: Last fifty years, tax cuts have been the dominant religion

1659
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:45,920
Speaker 11: of the Republican Party.

1660
01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:48,799
Speaker 4: And why is the movement framing? Where did that movement

1661
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:50,840
Speaker 4: come from? That's what our series is about.

1662
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:53,040
Speaker 5: All right, people should definitely go and check that out.

1663
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:55,120
Speaker 2: And like I said, we're going to have urgency on

1664
01:19:55,479 --> 01:19:57,519
Speaker 2: next week to break down some of the specifics there,

1665
01:19:57,840 --> 01:19:58,960
Speaker 2: David Serta, so great.

1666
01:19:58,840 --> 01:20:01,360
Speaker 5: To see you, Thank you, sir, thank you, thanks so much.

1667
01:20:04,400 --> 01:20:06,200
Speaker 2: So, guys, there was one more story that I wanted

1668
01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:09,599
Speaker 2: to make sure and cover today because it is deeply troubling.

1669
01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:13,680
Speaker 2: Hassan Piker, who is one of the most, if not

1670
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:17,920
Speaker 2: the largest, most prominent pro Palestine voice in the country,

1671
01:20:18,439 --> 01:20:21,280
Speaker 2: was detained for hours by customs and border patrol as

1672
01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:23,800
Speaker 2: he tried to re enter the country. He was flying

1673
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:27,599
Speaker 2: in from France, and he was questioned on his views

1674
01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:32,559
Speaker 2: on Israel Palestine four hours. Hassan recently spoke about this experience.

1675
01:20:32,640 --> 01:20:34,160
Speaker 2: Let's go ahead and take a listen to a little

1676
01:20:34,160 --> 01:20:34,360
Speaker 2: bit of.

1677
01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:35,000
Speaker 5: What he had to say.

1678
01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:38,519
Speaker 12: I'm sitting there and they're asking me about Trump, They're

1679
01:20:38,520 --> 01:20:42,719
Speaker 12: asking me about like Hamas, And he kept saying stuff.

1680
01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:48,560
Speaker 12: He kept saying stuff like do you like Hamas? Like

1681
01:20:48,720 --> 01:20:51,240
Speaker 12: do you support Hamas? Do you think Hamas is a

1682
01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:54,280
Speaker 12: resistance group? Do you think Amas is a terrorist group

1683
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:55,479
Speaker 12: or a resistance group?

1684
01:20:55,920 --> 01:20:55,960
Speaker 6: Like?

1685
01:20:56,240 --> 01:21:00,120
Speaker 12: He just kept asking over and over again. Right, I

1686
01:21:00,280 --> 01:21:03,880
Speaker 12: kept repeating the same statement over and over again. And

1687
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 12: every single time he asked me a question leading a

1688
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:09,760
Speaker 12: leading question about Hamas, I kept saying the United States

1689
01:21:09,800 --> 01:21:12,839
Speaker 12: State Department recognizes hamas as a terrorist organization.

1690
01:21:13,200 --> 01:21:16,640
Speaker 4: The fact that a lot of the shit that like.

1691
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:21,639
Speaker 12: The Ethan Kleines of the world have like cried about

1692
01:21:21,720 --> 01:21:25,080
Speaker 12: over and over again were on ironically brought up in

1693
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:29,559
Speaker 12: that fucking conversation the houthy like did you interview a houthy?

1694
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:31,560
Speaker 12: It says here that you interviewed a Houthi, and I

1695
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:33,519
Speaker 12: was like, or was he actually a Houthi?

1696
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:34,720
Speaker 4: And I was like, he's not.

1697
01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:36,920
Speaker 12: You can look to all of the reporting that came

1698
01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:40,160
Speaker 12: up afterwards and before I interviewed him that he is

1699
01:21:40,240 --> 01:21:42,800
Speaker 12: not a He's not a hoothy. The very fact that

1700
01:21:42,920 --> 01:21:45,000
Speaker 12: that was like a point of contention that could have

1701
01:21:45,240 --> 01:21:49,439
Speaker 12: fucking gotten me arrested is insane, And I genuinely, in

1702
01:21:49,520 --> 01:21:53,719
Speaker 12: that moment was thinking, like, these fucking dumbass slop tubers

1703
01:21:54,080 --> 01:21:56,200
Speaker 12: are actually playing with fucking fire.

1704
01:21:57,000 --> 01:21:59,400
Speaker 2: So there is a lot to say about this. So,

1705
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:02,080
Speaker 2: first of all, while he's referring to the quote unquote

1706
01:22:02,240 --> 01:22:05,640
Speaker 2: hot Houfi that he interviewed a while back, turns out

1707
01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:07,240
Speaker 2: the guy was not even a Houfi, which is what

1708
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:11,760
Speaker 2: he's talking about here. But clearly CBP grilling him on

1709
01:22:11,960 --> 01:22:15,439
Speaker 2: his political views and stances over the course of hours.

1710
01:22:15,880 --> 01:22:18,400
Speaker 2: And what Hassan points to there he mentions Ethan Klein,

1711
01:22:18,439 --> 01:22:20,960
Speaker 2: who's his former podcast host, So he's had a falling

1712
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:24,479
Speaker 2: out with primarily over some personal things, but also primarily

1713
01:22:24,560 --> 01:22:28,759
Speaker 2: over their respective views on Israel Palestine, and so Ethan

1714
01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:32,160
Speaker 2: has been going in and criticizing Hassan for things like

1715
01:22:32,240 --> 01:22:35,080
Speaker 2: his interview with the quote unquote hot Hoofi, And so

1716
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:38,960
Speaker 2: he's pointing to the fact that these CBP agents seemingly

1717
01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:45,080
Speaker 2: knew about the nature of this online critique, and it

1718
01:22:45,280 --> 01:22:47,920
Speaker 2: reminded me of the fact that you have this, you know,

1719
01:22:48,160 --> 01:22:53,000
Speaker 2: extreme Zionist radical organization called Beitar that has been claiming

1720
01:22:53,080 --> 01:22:58,920
Speaker 2: credit for giving the Trump administration list of students that

1721
01:22:59,080 --> 01:23:02,640
Speaker 2: they want to be arrested and ultimately deported and have

1722
01:23:02,720 --> 01:23:06,080
Speaker 2: been tweeting out these lists. And there's some indication that

1723
01:23:06,160 --> 01:23:09,920
Speaker 2: the Trump administration is using social media for these types

1724
01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:14,040
Speaker 2: of operations. That's certainly what Betar Worldwide is claiming confirmation

1725
01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:16,439
Speaker 2: of that from the Trump administration. But the fact that

1726
01:23:16,520 --> 01:23:20,080
Speaker 2: Hassan was targeted in this way and question in this

1727
01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:25,800
Speaker 2: manner obviously deeply deeply troubling, and Hassan himself in another

1728
01:23:26,080 --> 01:23:29,200
Speaker 2: portion of his commentary here talks about how he thinks

1729
01:23:29,280 --> 01:23:32,400
Speaker 2: this was very intentional to create a climate of fear

1730
01:23:32,760 --> 01:23:35,200
Speaker 2: and to try to get him and others to shut

1731
01:23:35,320 --> 01:23:38,080
Speaker 2: up about their views that differ from the stance of

1732
01:23:38,240 --> 01:23:39,040
Speaker 2: this administration.

1733
01:23:39,280 --> 01:23:40,479
Speaker 5: Let's go ahead and take a listen to that.

1734
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:43,720
Speaker 12: The reason for why they're doing that is, I think

1735
01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:49,360
Speaker 12: to try to create an environment of fear to try

1736
01:23:49,400 --> 01:23:52,240
Speaker 12: to get people like myself, or at least like others

1737
01:23:52,840 --> 01:23:54,760
Speaker 12: that would be in my shoes that don't have that

1738
01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:57,880
Speaker 12: same level of security, to shut the fuck up. And

1739
01:23:58,320 --> 01:24:00,640
Speaker 12: for me, I'm going to use the that I have

1740
01:24:00,760 --> 01:24:03,800
Speaker 12: in that moment to try and see what the fuck

1741
01:24:03,880 --> 01:24:04,360
Speaker 12: they're doing.

1742
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:06,840
Speaker 2: So he talks there about how they're trying to create

1743
01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:09,639
Speaker 2: a climate of fear. Hassan is not the first person

1744
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:13,120
Speaker 2: who has been seemingly targeted by Customs and Border patrol

1745
01:24:13,160 --> 01:24:16,839
Speaker 2: by the Trump administration in this manner. An immigration attorney

1746
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:19,880
Speaker 2: who was returning back to the US was similar pulled

1747
01:24:19,920 --> 01:24:22,439
Speaker 2: aside for hours and questioned with him.

1748
01:24:22,880 --> 01:24:24,200
Speaker 5: It was specifically about.

1749
01:24:23,960 --> 01:24:25,880
Speaker 2: The work that he does, and they wanted to seize

1750
01:24:25,920 --> 01:24:28,439
Speaker 2: his phone and get a hold of his client list. Again,

1751
01:24:28,680 --> 01:24:33,439
Speaker 2: an immigration attorney, and this ties in with the larger

1752
01:24:33,800 --> 01:24:37,559
Speaker 2: project of the Trump administration where they have been either

1753
01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:42,320
Speaker 2: overtly or floating the idea of labeling as domestic terrorists

1754
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:47,760
Speaker 2: anyone who supports the Palestinian cause. So Hassan, again, being

1755
01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:51,280
Speaker 2: one of the most if not the most prominent pro

1756
01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:57,000
Speaker 2: Palestine voice in the country getting targeted is deeply, deeply troubling.

1757
01:24:57,320 --> 01:24:59,920
Speaker 2: So that's one category of people we've seen. Of course,

1758
01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:02,400
Speaker 2: the way that they've applied this to students who are

1759
01:25:02,439 --> 01:25:06,719
Speaker 2: here on visa's even legal permanent residence, like Mahmud Khalil,

1760
01:25:07,320 --> 01:25:11,000
Speaker 2: not for any sort of criminal activity, but literally just

1761
01:25:11,160 --> 01:25:14,200
Speaker 2: for their speech, for penning and op ed or being

1762
01:25:14,280 --> 01:25:17,479
Speaker 2: involved in a protest movement that is pro Palestine. So

1763
01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:22,320
Speaker 2: Hassan appears to have been directly targeted because of his

1764
01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:25,280
Speaker 2: views on that issue. But that's not the only group

1765
01:25:25,320 --> 01:25:28,439
Speaker 2: that they've been going after, as evidenced by the immigration

1766
01:25:28,560 --> 01:25:32,760
Speaker 2: attorney who was pulled aside Sebastian Gorka, who is the

1767
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:35,320
Speaker 2: White House's counter terrors are and Ken Clepenstein has done

1768
01:25:35,320 --> 01:25:39,280
Speaker 2: great reporting on this. He has floated that anyone who

1769
01:25:39,400 --> 01:25:44,439
Speaker 2: opposes the Trump administration's deportation policy should be seen as

1770
01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:46,639
Speaker 2: a domestic terrorist. And of course we saw a judge

1771
01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:50,839
Speaker 2: who was arrested, you know, in that context, and AOC

1772
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:53,440
Speaker 2: and others who have been threatened with arrest for advising

1773
01:25:53,840 --> 01:25:57,439
Speaker 2: immigrants of their rights and the rights that they can

1774
01:25:57,439 --> 01:26:00,799
Speaker 2: avail themselves of in this country. He's also so floated

1775
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:06,120
Speaker 2: labeling as domestic terrorists people who are just critical of

1776
01:26:06,400 --> 01:26:09,759
Speaker 2: the Trump regime. So the hands off protesters he mentioned

1777
01:26:09,840 --> 01:26:13,040
Speaker 2: as well. Of course, Pam Bondi gave a press conference

1778
01:26:13,080 --> 01:26:16,760
Speaker 2: where she officially said that people who harbor ill will

1779
01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:20,759
Speaker 2: against Tesla that they should be treated as domestic terrorists.

1780
01:26:20,760 --> 01:26:22,160
Speaker 2: And we know there have been you know, they really

1781
01:26:22,200 --> 01:26:26,360
Speaker 2: threw the book at some individuals whore accused of vandalizing

1782
01:26:26,720 --> 01:26:29,800
Speaker 2: Tesla's or Tesla property. So this is part of a

1783
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:34,280
Speaker 2: larger pattern, and it seems like Hassan handled it incredibly well.

1784
01:26:34,320 --> 01:26:36,160
Speaker 2: I don't know that I would have been so cool

1785
01:26:36,600 --> 01:26:39,560
Speaker 2: under fire as he was. Gave you know, answers that

1786
01:26:39,680 --> 01:26:42,400
Speaker 2: they couldn't really use to do anything with. But he

1787
01:26:42,520 --> 01:26:45,080
Speaker 2: had the sense that they were trying to get him

1788
01:26:45,479 --> 01:26:48,600
Speaker 2: to express some sort of support for Hamas or for

1789
01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:51,559
Speaker 2: the Housies, both of which are labeled terrorist organizations by

1790
01:26:51,600 --> 01:26:54,120
Speaker 2: the State Department, as he rightly boinds out, so that

1791
01:26:54,200 --> 01:26:57,320
Speaker 2: they could have some sort of pretext to potentially detain him,

1792
01:26:57,520 --> 01:27:00,400
Speaker 2: arrest him, and hold him for a longer period of time.

1793
01:27:00,880 --> 01:27:05,040
Speaker 2: So I don't know, guys, this is I think another

1794
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:10,080
Speaker 2: escalation when you're targeting prominent media figures simply for their

1795
01:27:10,160 --> 01:27:16,280
Speaker 2: speech on a topic that is dissonant from the Trump administration,

1796
01:27:16,479 --> 01:27:19,519
Speaker 2: from their regime. There were a few other things going

1797
01:27:19,600 --> 01:27:21,479
Speaker 2: on here that I just wanted to make sure and highlight.

1798
01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:25,840
Speaker 2: There's video that recently went viral of a Massachusetts ICE

1799
01:27:25,960 --> 01:27:30,680
Speaker 2: raid where they are trying to arrest a mother. Her

1800
01:27:30,760 --> 01:27:34,600
Speaker 2: teenage daughter is obviously very upset. She's also holding a

1801
01:27:34,720 --> 01:27:37,880
Speaker 2: young child. There's a crowd that gathers at the scene.

1802
01:27:38,320 --> 01:27:41,360
Speaker 2: The agents, I'm not sure if these were ICE agents

1803
01:27:41,520 --> 01:27:44,160
Speaker 2: or local police also got involved with this, even though

1804
01:27:44,200 --> 01:27:47,839
Speaker 2: they are not supposed to be involved whatsoever in immigration enforcement.

1805
01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:51,439
Speaker 2: But in any case, the teenage daughter ends up getting

1806
01:27:51,720 --> 01:27:54,360
Speaker 2: slammed and her face pushed into the ground. Let's go

1807
01:27:54,400 --> 01:27:56,440
Speaker 2: ahead and take a look at that footage.

1808
01:28:03,600 --> 01:28:05,200
Speaker 4: Stop them.

1809
01:28:09,880 --> 01:28:12,519
Speaker 13: Definitely a chaotic scene on Eureka Street Thursday, as Worcester

1810
01:28:12,640 --> 01:28:15,799
Speaker 13: police and ice agents detained a mother and her sixteen

1811
01:28:15,840 --> 01:28:18,160
Speaker 13: year old daughter. That girl's face slammed into the ground

1812
01:28:18,200 --> 01:28:21,200
Speaker 13: as she was taken into custody. They have not been identified.

1813
01:28:21,320 --> 01:28:24,280
Speaker 13: Worcester Police said officers were dispatched to the area for

1814
01:28:24,320 --> 01:28:26,559
Speaker 13: a report of a federal agent surrounded by about two

1815
01:28:26,640 --> 01:28:29,400
Speaker 13: dozen people. When police arrived, they say the teen daughter

1816
01:28:29,520 --> 01:28:31,719
Speaker 13: was holding a newborn baby in her arms and standing

1817
01:28:31,760 --> 01:28:33,640
Speaker 13: in front of the ice vehicle that was trying to

1818
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:36,479
Speaker 13: leave with their mother inside. Officers told her she was

1819
01:28:36,560 --> 01:28:39,320
Speaker 13: endangering the baby, so she handed the newborn to a relative,

1820
01:28:39,360 --> 01:28:42,280
Speaker 13: but police alleged as the ice vehicle drove away, she

1821
01:28:42,479 --> 01:28:44,800
Speaker 13: ran after it and kicked the side of it. She

1822
01:28:45,000 --> 01:28:47,400
Speaker 13: was arrested in charge with reckless endangerment of a child,

1823
01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:50,200
Speaker 13: disturbing the peace to sort of the conduct, and resisting arrest.

1824
01:28:50,680 --> 01:28:52,719
Speaker 2: These are the types of scenes that are increasingly playing

1825
01:28:52,880 --> 01:28:56,679
Speaker 2: out across the country and including some of the public pushback.

1826
01:28:56,760 --> 01:28:59,720
Speaker 2: You can see there there's a crowd that forms that

1827
01:28:59,880 --> 01:29:02,839
Speaker 2: is very concerned about what is happening, that is attempting

1828
01:29:02,920 --> 01:29:06,240
Speaker 2: to intervene. The police claim they were called in because

1829
01:29:06,320 --> 01:29:08,320
Speaker 2: this is their line since they can't be involved directly

1830
01:29:08,360 --> 01:29:11,439
Speaker 2: in immigration enforcement they were called in for crowd control

1831
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:15,840
Speaker 2: and that their actions were consistent with trying to get

1832
01:29:15,880 --> 01:29:16,560
Speaker 2: the crowd.

1833
01:29:16,360 --> 01:29:18,240
Speaker 5: That had gathered there under control.

1834
01:29:18,560 --> 01:29:21,519
Speaker 2: But you know, there has been increasing pushback from the

1835
01:29:21,560 --> 01:29:25,759
Speaker 2: public on these draconian tactics that are being utilized, including

1836
01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:28,360
Speaker 2: against you know, a teenage girl here who gets thrown

1837
01:29:28,439 --> 01:29:30,679
Speaker 2: to the ground. This is I was reading the local

1838
01:29:31,479 --> 01:29:35,080
Speaker 2: Massachusetts press. I think you pronounced it Wooster. Sorry Massachusetts

1839
01:29:35,120 --> 01:29:36,840
Speaker 2: people if I get that wrong. But in any case,

1840
01:29:37,080 --> 01:29:40,000
Speaker 2: there's a local uproar about the way all of this

1841
01:29:40,160 --> 01:29:42,400
Speaker 2: went down, and we've seen in other towns where actually

1842
01:29:42,479 --> 01:29:46,040
Speaker 2: public protest led to the release of some other immigrants

1843
01:29:46,120 --> 01:29:50,200
Speaker 2: who had been arrested and detained, including child who had

1844
01:29:50,240 --> 01:29:54,120
Speaker 2: been arrested from school, and the principle and others pushed

1845
01:29:54,160 --> 01:29:57,080
Speaker 2: back and they were able to secure the at least

1846
01:29:57,120 --> 01:29:59,960
Speaker 2: temporary release. Some good news I did want to share

1847
01:30:00,200 --> 01:30:03,240
Speaker 2: with you though, in light of the especially consistent with

1848
01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:06,560
Speaker 2: the news about Hassan here, we've been tracking all of

1849
01:30:06,560 --> 01:30:09,000
Speaker 2: the students that have been arrested for their speech, their

1850
01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:13,200
Speaker 2: pro Palestine speech. One of those is Remesa oz Turk.

1851
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:15,320
Speaker 2: We all watch the video of her getting snatched and

1852
01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:16,719
Speaker 2: kidnapped up off the street.

1853
01:30:17,680 --> 01:30:18,320
Speaker 5: Her crime.

1854
01:30:18,400 --> 01:30:21,479
Speaker 2: The only thing that this administration has ever accused her

1855
01:30:21,560 --> 01:30:24,440
Speaker 2: of is penning an op ed for the student newspaper

1856
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:30,360
Speaker 2: calling for divestment from anything associated with Israel. That's literally

1857
01:30:30,720 --> 01:30:33,160
Speaker 2: all that she's ever been accused of. She's never been

1858
01:30:33,200 --> 01:30:36,040
Speaker 2: accused of any crime, even of saying from the river

1859
01:30:36,200 --> 01:30:39,920
Speaker 2: to the sea, God forbid, none of that, just this

1860
01:30:40,160 --> 01:30:42,360
Speaker 2: op ed in the student newspaper.

1861
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:43,840
Speaker 5: She was arrested for that.

1862
01:30:44,280 --> 01:30:47,519
Speaker 2: The Trump administration shifted her down to Louisiana because they

1863
01:30:47,640 --> 01:30:52,480
Speaker 2: thought that the judges there would be harsher Visa VI immigrants,

1864
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:55,120
Speaker 2: and that they would have a better chance of being

1865
01:30:55,160 --> 01:30:59,480
Speaker 2: able to secure oz Turk's continued detention and eventual deportation

1866
01:31:00,240 --> 01:31:02,280
Speaker 2: for what is very clearly just on the.

1867
01:31:02,280 --> 01:31:03,200
Speaker 5: Grounds of speech.

1868
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:06,920
Speaker 2: They lost that battle to keep her in Louisiana, so

1869
01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:09,760
Speaker 2: that was a significant win for Rameesa Osturk. She gets

1870
01:31:09,920 --> 01:31:13,519
Speaker 2: transferred back to Vermont. They hear her case in Vermont,

1871
01:31:13,880 --> 01:31:16,920
Speaker 2: and ultimately this has not been fully decided yet, but

1872
01:31:17,000 --> 01:31:20,200
Speaker 2: they did decide while the case the trial is pending,

1873
01:31:20,439 --> 01:31:23,640
Speaker 2: they did decide to release Ramesa oz Turk, so she

1874
01:31:23,800 --> 01:31:25,559
Speaker 2: is now free for the moment.

1875
01:31:25,720 --> 01:31:26,840
Speaker 5: While that case is pending.

1876
01:31:27,320 --> 01:31:31,240
Speaker 2: She spoke out about everything that's going on, including why

1877
01:31:31,320 --> 01:31:34,160
Speaker 2: she appreciates and respects this country, which I'm not sure

1878
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:36,600
Speaker 2: that I would be big enough to say at this

1879
01:31:36,720 --> 01:31:39,960
Speaker 2: particular moment, but just take a listen to her comments.

1880
01:31:40,160 --> 01:31:41,840
Speaker 2: Upon her release, I.

1881
01:31:41,880 --> 01:31:45,640
Speaker 14: Will continue my case in the courts. I come to you,

1882
01:31:45,760 --> 01:31:49,040
Speaker 14: Mike to face to pursue my Gorge studies long I'm

1883
01:31:49,120 --> 01:31:52,799
Speaker 14: girl as a scholars and as it's contributed chal developments

1884
01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:58,160
Speaker 14: fields with my teaching research on Applight's work. America is

1885
01:31:58,200 --> 01:32:01,840
Speaker 14: the greatest Demochrist in the it and I believe in

1886
01:32:01,960 --> 01:32:05,519
Speaker 14: those wells that we share. I have faith in the

1887
01:32:05,560 --> 01:32:07,000
Speaker 14: American system of justice.

1888
01:32:09,000 --> 01:32:14,280
Speaker 9: This is difficult time for my community, for my community

1889
01:32:14,439 --> 01:32:19,479
Speaker 9: at toss at Turkey, but I'm so grateful for all

1890
01:32:19,560 --> 01:32:21,320
Speaker 9: the sport, kindness and cash.

1891
01:32:23,400 --> 01:32:27,679
Speaker 14: My advisor sent me my dissertation proposal to the PISM.

1892
01:32:28,160 --> 01:32:30,120
Speaker 2: I was really struck there by. First of all, she

1893
01:32:30,200 --> 01:32:32,120
Speaker 2: says America is the greatest democracy in the world. I

1894
01:32:32,200 --> 01:32:35,080
Speaker 2: believe in those values that we shared, like the ability

1895
01:32:35,120 --> 01:32:37,439
Speaker 2: to hold on to that sentiment at this particular time

1896
01:32:37,640 --> 01:32:40,880
Speaker 2: when those democratic rights are very much under assault, and

1897
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:43,439
Speaker 2: that she is burying the brunt of that assault, I

1898
01:32:43,520 --> 01:32:46,920
Speaker 2: thought was pretty incredible, and also that even in this

1899
01:32:47,120 --> 01:32:50,840
Speaker 2: moment when she's going through such a trying ordeal, she's

1900
01:32:50,880 --> 01:32:54,640
Speaker 2: still thinking about the other women that she saw and

1901
01:32:54,720 --> 01:32:56,840
Speaker 2: the pain and the anguish that they were suffering inside

1902
01:32:56,880 --> 01:32:59,599
Speaker 2: the immigration center. I was actually talking to producer Mac

1903
01:32:59,680 --> 01:33:03,000
Speaker 2: before or this segment. It really is incredible the people

1904
01:33:03,080 --> 01:33:04,479
Speaker 2: that they have made an example of.

1905
01:33:05,479 --> 01:33:06,439
Speaker 5: Every one of them.

1906
01:33:06,800 --> 01:33:11,560
Speaker 2: Appears to be just the most kind, big hearted, like

1907
01:33:11,840 --> 01:33:15,320
Speaker 2: incredible people that you can imagine, whether it's moss of Madawi,

1908
01:33:15,360 --> 01:33:17,400
Speaker 2: if you listen to what he has to say about

1909
01:33:17,439 --> 01:33:20,400
Speaker 2: the need for justice for everyone and human rights and

1910
01:33:20,520 --> 01:33:23,599
Speaker 2: dignity for all, Mack Mood Khalil, we can actually put

1911
01:33:23,840 --> 01:33:25,640
Speaker 2: he just penned an on ed. We can put this

1912
01:33:25,800 --> 01:33:27,639
Speaker 2: up on the screen. Remember, this is a guy who

1913
01:33:28,000 --> 01:33:32,080
Speaker 2: he is still being held in detention. He was denied

1914
01:33:32,520 --> 01:33:35,600
Speaker 2: the ability to be present for the birth of his

1915
01:33:36,160 --> 01:33:40,599
Speaker 2: firstborn child, and that's who he's writing to hear and again,

1916
01:33:40,720 --> 01:33:44,040
Speaker 2: all because he was just involved as a facilitator and

1917
01:33:44,120 --> 01:33:48,599
Speaker 2: a negotiator in the Colombia pro Palestine protest. He says

1918
01:33:48,680 --> 01:33:51,360
Speaker 2: to his newborn son, Dean, my heart aches that I

1919
01:33:51,400 --> 01:33:53,760
Speaker 2: could not hold you in my arms and hear your

1920
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:56,360
Speaker 2: first cry that I could not unfurro your clenched fists

1921
01:33:56,439 --> 01:33:59,640
Speaker 2: or change your first diaper. I am sorry that I

1922
01:33:59,720 --> 01:34:01,560
Speaker 2: was not there to hold your mother's hand, or to

1923
01:34:01,680 --> 01:34:03,920
Speaker 2: recite the ad hun, or to call to prayer in

1924
01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:04,400
Speaker 2: your ear.

1925
01:34:04,800 --> 01:34:06,400
Speaker 5: But my absence is not unique.

1926
01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:09,640
Speaker 2: Like other Palestinian fathers, I was separated from you by

1927
01:34:09,760 --> 01:34:13,200
Speaker 2: racist regimes and distant prisons. In Palestine, this pain is

1928
01:34:13,320 --> 01:34:16,960
Speaker 2: part of daily life. Babies are born every day without

1929
01:34:17,000 --> 01:34:19,880
Speaker 2: their fathers, not because their fathers choose to leave, but

1930
01:34:20,040 --> 01:34:23,080
Speaker 2: because they are taken by war, by bombs, by prison cells,

1931
01:34:23,120 --> 01:34:26,639
Speaker 2: and by the cold machinery of occupation. The grief your

1932
01:34:26,680 --> 01:34:29,280
Speaker 2: mother and I feel is but one drop in a

1933
01:34:29,439 --> 01:34:34,880
Speaker 2: sea of sorrow that Palestinian families have drowned in for generations.

1934
01:34:35,360 --> 01:34:42,000
Speaker 2: And again here he is still still detained, still being

1935
01:34:42,120 --> 01:34:46,800
Speaker 2: held for the crime of participating in a protest, and

1936
01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:50,519
Speaker 2: barred from being able to be there for the birth

1937
01:34:50,600 --> 01:34:54,879
Speaker 2: of his child, and still is thinking not just about himself,

1938
01:34:55,400 --> 01:34:58,320
Speaker 2: but is thinking about the broader cause and those who

1939
01:34:58,520 --> 01:35:01,720
Speaker 2: he says are suffering even more greatly than he is,

1940
01:35:01,880 --> 01:35:03,960
Speaker 2: and his wife too, by the way, who is an

1941
01:35:04,000 --> 01:35:06,240
Speaker 2: American citizen. I mean his child and is an American citizen.

1942
01:35:06,320 --> 01:35:09,000
Speaker 2: His wife is an American citizen. And so while Mahmud

1943
01:35:09,040 --> 01:35:11,920
Speaker 2: Khalil's rights are being denied here because of his speech,

1944
01:35:12,439 --> 01:35:15,639
Speaker 2: so are those of his wife. Of his American citizen

1945
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:19,479
Speaker 2: wife is also having her life turned upside down because

1946
01:35:19,520 --> 01:35:22,600
Speaker 2: he dared to speak out against genocide being committed with

1947
01:35:22,760 --> 01:35:29,000
Speaker 2: our US tax dollars in Gaza. So extraordinary individuals and

1948
01:35:29,400 --> 01:35:32,760
Speaker 2: deeply troubling times. You know, to go back to Hassan here,

1949
01:35:33,600 --> 01:35:37,040
Speaker 2: I do wonder if the timing of this questioning and

1950
01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:39,360
Speaker 2: detention has to do with you. He's recently the subject

1951
01:35:39,400 --> 01:35:42,519
Speaker 2: of a New York Times profile like his. Hassan is

1952
01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:45,280
Speaker 2: a huge has a gigantic audience. I think he's the

1953
01:35:45,560 --> 01:35:49,040
Speaker 2: largest twitch political streamer that is out there. But he's

1954
01:35:49,080 --> 01:35:52,439
Speaker 2: also had more and more sort of mainstream crossover lately,

1955
01:35:52,479 --> 01:35:55,439
Speaker 2: which has also raised his profile, and so I wonder

1956
01:35:55,479 --> 01:35:57,840
Speaker 2: if that's also part of what made him a target.

1957
01:35:58,160 --> 01:36:00,800
Speaker 2: Kudos to him for not buckley under the pressure and

1958
01:36:00,880 --> 01:36:04,120
Speaker 2: speaking out about everything that he experienced, because the goal here,

1959
01:36:04,240 --> 01:36:06,679
Speaker 2: like he said, is to create a climate of fear,

1960
01:36:07,240 --> 01:36:09,800
Speaker 2: and you cannot allow that to happen, you have to

1961
01:36:09,880 --> 01:36:11,400
Speaker 2: continue to speak out.

1962
01:36:11,400 --> 01:36:13,320
Speaker 5: On issues of importance.

1963
01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:17,439
Speaker 2: And he also spoke about how, you know, having this

1964
01:36:17,600 --> 01:36:21,679
Speaker 2: large profile and having this level of national fame also

1965
01:36:21,760 --> 01:36:24,240
Speaker 2: gives them a sort of privilege. So very admirable that

1966
01:36:24,320 --> 01:36:27,240
Speaker 2: he's thinking about that under those circumstances and not buckling

1967
01:36:27,320 --> 01:36:28,000
Speaker 2: under the pressure.

1968
01:36:28,800 --> 01:36:30,759
Speaker 5: All right, guys, that is the show for today.

1969
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:33,840
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for hanging out with me and

1970
01:36:34,080 --> 01:36:36,920
Speaker 2: Tim Miller and David Sarota, Emiine Ryan are going to

1971
01:36:36,920 --> 01:36:39,840
Speaker 2: be in tomorrow for Counterpoints. Thank you also to all

1972
01:36:39,880 --> 01:36:42,439
Speaker 2: of the Premium subscribers out there who have been supporting

1973
01:36:42,520 --> 01:36:46,240
Speaker 2: us an enabled our expansion to the Friday Show. Super

1974
01:36:46,280 --> 01:36:48,800
Speaker 2: super grateful for all of your support. And we're going

1975
01:36:48,840 --> 01:36:52,000
Speaker 2: to have some more big news for you guys coming soon,

1976
01:36:52,120 --> 01:36:54,200
Speaker 2: so stay tuned for that and I'll see you soon.

1977
01:37:01,000 --> 01:37:01,040
Speaker 4: P