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Speaker 1: Cool Zon Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, Hello, it's a message from your host, Margaret Kiljoy.

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Speaker 2: That's a crass reference. It's the show about crass. I'm

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Speaker 2: allowed to make crass references. That's the thing that I

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Speaker 2: can do. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy. Welcome to Cool

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Speaker 2: People Who Did cool stuff. And it's a podcast. It's

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Speaker 2: part two. You should figure that out by now. But

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Speaker 2: I have to always ramble incoherently at the start of

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Speaker 2: every episode until I introduce my guest, which this week

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Speaker 2: is Julie Holland.

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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 2: How are you?

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Speaker 1: Hello, I'm fine. How are you doing.

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Speaker 2: I'm okay. We're recording this the same time as last time,

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Speaker 2: so we're both actually dealing with ambient horror of the

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Speaker 2: destruction of the little positive things that the government it

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Speaker 2: did for people. But you know, it's okay. The sun

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Speaker 2: will eat the earth eventually, anyway. That's what I always

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Speaker 2: remind myself.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I just grab all the coping mechanisms that work,

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Speaker 3: you know, whenever I need them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that is, that is what they're there for. I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna eat ice cream after this. That's my primary coping

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Speaker 2: mechanism for real. Yeah, yeah, I eat vegan ice cream.

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Speaker 2: As after when when times ago are hard, I eat

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Speaker 2: ice cream.

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Speaker 4: It's great.

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Speaker 2: I have no regrets.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes you need this, like the blood sugar to your

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Speaker 3: brain immediately.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel like it's important that every podcast are

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Speaker 2: of like at least some sort of terrible thing that

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Speaker 2: they do to their body. But I like, basically don't

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Speaker 2: do drugs or drink, so I hit upon sugar.

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Speaker 1: The thing that works absolutely the best for me is

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Speaker 1: just working out. It's just it just.

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Speaker 2: That's the good version that makes you, that makes your

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Speaker 2: life better.

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Speaker 3: Drinking doesn't do anything for me. I like mescal, but

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Speaker 3: drinking doesn't. You know, it's not a coping mechanism. I

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Speaker 3: tried that one time and I was like, oh, this

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Speaker 3: doesn't do shit for me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, drug stress me out and then you like worry

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Speaker 2: about the police and stuff. I was terrible when I did.

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Speaker 2: I never understood because like when I was like a

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Speaker 2: street kid, I feel like I got searched by cops

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Speaker 2: like three or four times a week, and so I

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Speaker 2: just didn't understand how people did drugs. I was like,

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Speaker 2: if you have drugs, you get caught. I don't understand.

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Speaker 1: And taxes. I was a street kid in taxes and

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Speaker 1: we did rote atessin.

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Speaker 2: It's what they did in high school. But because I yeah, yes,

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Speaker 2: it's legal. Yeah. Uh, the kids don't do drugs anyway,

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Speaker 2: don't do drugs, yeah, don't whatever. So we're talking about punk,

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Speaker 2: which has all kinds of opinions about drugs. Actually one

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Speaker 2: of the things that I didn't even get into. And

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Speaker 2: some of the old West Coast punk scenes they literally

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Speaker 2: had people already talking about like before straight edge people

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Speaker 2: were like had critiques of how the hippies were dropping

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Speaker 2: out and by using drugs they were like backly dulling

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Speaker 2: their senses. They were making straight edge arguments in nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy seven on the West Coast. Yeah, and it was

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Speaker 2: just really interesting to me anyway. So in the US

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Speaker 2: you have the reproletarianization of the middle class, right, more

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Speaker 2: and more people are suddenly I mean, middle classes a

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Speaker 2: lie anyway, Either you work for money or you don't.

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Speaker 2: If you make money by owning things, then you are

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Speaker 2: not working class. If you make money by working, you

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Speaker 2: are working class. But the middle class is a conception

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Speaker 2: that people come up with, and people were falling out

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Speaker 2: of it. But the UK's economy wasn't doing particularly better

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Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy four, a successful minor strike brought down

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Speaker 2: the Conservative government, which meant that labor was in charge

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Speaker 2: when the economy fell apart and the country went to

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Speaker 2: the International Monetary Fund for a loan. In the year

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy six, the country saw twenty three percent inflation.

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Speaker 2: And I think we've talked about this a couple times

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Speaker 2: in the show before. If you get a loan from

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Speaker 2: the International Monetary Fund, it's like going to a loan shark.

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Speaker 2: But instead of like they're.

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Speaker 1: The devil, they're the devil. You're making a deal with

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Speaker 1: the devil.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, instead of breaking your legs, they break the working

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Speaker 2: class of your country's legs. And that same year there

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Speaker 2: was a massive drought and a huge heat wave and

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Speaker 2: everyone was told to cut their water use by half.

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Speaker 2: It was so hot that the pavement was melting or

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Speaker 2: tarmac as they call it over there. But what's funny

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Speaker 2: is so that happens all the time now over there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just regular.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, unemployment had more than doubled as far as they

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Speaker 2: can tell. The reason the economy of the UK fell

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Speaker 2: so hard was basically that had been built on the

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Speaker 2: blood of the colonies and the colonies had broken free.

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Speaker 2: So the collapse of the empire fucked the UK good,

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Speaker 2: I mean fuck them, but like.

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Speaker 1: It mostly fell on the working class, who's who was fault.

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Speaker 2: It was not right totally, but they still for a

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Speaker 2: moment had kind of a strong social net until Thatcher

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Speaker 2: in the eighties. And we'll talk about that. But like,

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Speaker 2: while compared to the US, that still whatever.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, compared to the US there they're doing so much better.

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Speaker 3: I was on tour and I needed to get some antibiotics.

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Speaker 1: And it just it blew my mind how easy it

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Speaker 1: was over there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, at midnight, at midnight, I was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: damn it, I have a ut.

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Speaker 1: This is a uti, you know, and we got a sorted.

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Speaker 1: It was amazing.

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Speaker 2: I remember once staying with my friend in a French

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Speaker 2: squat and she had fucked up her thumb and like

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Speaker 2: pretty badly. She needed to go to the doctor. And

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Speaker 2: I was like, God, what are you going to do?

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Speaker 2: And she was like, I don't know. And then in

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Speaker 2: the morning I talked to her and she was like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm French, I'm just going to go to the doctor.

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Speaker 2: I'm not in America. Like even though I'm a broke squatter,

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Speaker 2: I can get my thumb taken care of, you know.

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Speaker 1: It's so beautiful.

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Speaker 3: A lovely friend of mine got pregnant in Texas, moved

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Speaker 3: to France. Yeah, and she had ended up having like

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Speaker 3: a pretty complicated pregnancy and she had to stay a

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Speaker 3: little bit longer in the birth center or whatever, in

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Speaker 3: the hospital, whatever it was.

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Speaker 1: And on her way out, the French nurses were like,

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Speaker 1: we're so sorry, we're going to have to you know,

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Speaker 1: because you're American.

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Speaker 3: Nothing that's not all covered. I'm so sorry, we're going

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Speaker 3: to have to ask you to cover this. It was

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Speaker 3: twenty euros.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So the UK it's not doing so well, but

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Speaker 2: you know, everything's comparable to other things. The UK was

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Speaker 2: having a moment too, where it was pondering something that

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Speaker 2: it always seems to be pondering. It was pondering should

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Speaker 2: we become even more racist? In nineteen seventy six. You

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Speaker 2: ever seen Eric Clapton's racist tirade from nineteen seventy six.

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Speaker 3: No, that's hilarious. I think I heard a more recent one.

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Speaker 1: No's he's for someone who built his career off off

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Speaker 1: like very not subtle shade of blackface. That man has

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Speaker 1: some fucking golf.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. In nineteen seventy six, the famous guitarist Eric Clapton

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Speaker 2: went on stage and gave this massive fucking racist rant

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Speaker 2: that I will not and cannot read on air, full

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Speaker 2: of old timey slurs telling foreigners to leave the country.

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Speaker 2: He starts it off with by being like, hey, do

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Speaker 2: I have any foreigners in the crowd? Raise your hands,

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Speaker 2: get out of here. And then he goes on and

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Speaker 2: in this he says, quote, I used to be into dope.

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Speaker 2: Now I'm into racism. It's much heavier, man. And then

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Speaker 2: he shouted keep Britain white. This was not subtle.

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Speaker 1: That is incredibly unsubtle.

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Speaker 2: Good for him, yeah, something like in twenty eighteen he

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Speaker 2: finally he apologized for saying half racist stuff. And I'm like,

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Speaker 2: you literally said I'm into racism. That's not half that's

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Speaker 2: the whole thing, that's all of racism. When you say

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Speaker 2: I am into racism, they.

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Speaker 1: Love caging and pretending something's a joke, like I don't.

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Speaker 2: Know, yeah yeah. And this is literally the reason that

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Speaker 2: the social movement and like concert movement Rock against Racism

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Speaker 2: started in the UK was in response to Eric Clapton

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Speaker 2: being a massive bigot eventually passed that torch on to Morrissey,

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Speaker 2: as we all know, but he started Yeah, that broke

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Speaker 2: my heart. I know that one. That one fucked me up.

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Speaker 1: I saw him kind of recently, just just by chance,

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Speaker 1: because he was at like a festival. He was so good.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to come back.

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Speaker 2: I believe he's a good musician, but a good songwriter.

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Speaker 1: He was.

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Speaker 3: It was glorious. He sounded amazing. I want him to

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Speaker 3: like go to some rehab or something.

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Speaker 2: I want to racism rehab, racism rehab, I think because

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Speaker 2: he said it takes courage to be gentle and kind,

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Speaker 2: come on, which just means he's a coward. Yep, he

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Speaker 2: does not have the courage to be gentle and kind.

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Speaker 2: He's a massive bigot. And if I was in the UK,

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Speaker 2: you could sue me, but I'm not. I'm in the

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Speaker 2: US anyway. So England was having a moment. They were

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Speaker 2: really going through some stuff. When the sex Pistols came

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Speaker 2: on to one of the three TV channels in England

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Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy six and were goaded into saying the

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Speaker 2: word shit shyly. This was a huge, huge deal. I

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Speaker 2: expected this to be like when Rage against the machine

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Speaker 2: like went on BBC and like, uh, played fuck you.

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Speaker 2: I won't do what you tell me without censoring it,

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Speaker 2: you know, yeah, which is a brilliant moment in music history.

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Speaker 2: But literally, they like kind of said something under their

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Speaker 2: breath and the guy was like, wait, what did you say?

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Speaker 2: And he was like, oh, I said something I can't say.

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Speaker 2: And the guy's like, no, what did you say? And

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Speaker 2: he's like oh shit, and they're like ah back in

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Speaker 2: the seventy something seventy six, yeah, and then punk was everywhere.

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Speaker 2: This was the best pr move they could have possibly made.

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Speaker 2: Although they almost went to jail. I think I don't

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Speaker 2: know enough about sex pesscical history. I don't care enough

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Speaker 2: about them. This it blew up. But as a mainstream fad,

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Speaker 2: by nineteen seventy eight, Punk's moment in the sun had passed.

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Speaker 2: New Wave was in, except there were now scores of

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Speaker 2: punks and they weren't going to move on. They were

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Speaker 2: going to build a worldwide scene and they were going

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Speaker 2: to build it more DIY, a bit more underground. But

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Speaker 2: you can't even truly I mean you're talking about millions

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Speaker 2: and millions of records. It's just not on TV to

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Speaker 2: the same degree after nineteen seventy eight to cut over

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Speaker 2: to Canada for a second. As author and eco terrorist

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Speaker 2: Anne Hanson put in her book direct Action Memoirs of

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Speaker 2: an Urban Gorilla, she wrote, quote, the parents of the

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Speaker 2: punk kids were wooed into complacency through slick marketing of

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Speaker 2: the illusion that corporate America was moving towards a society

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Speaker 2: free of pollution, with equal opportunities for all. Both men

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Speaker 2: and women could drive to their corporate offices and their

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Speaker 2: BMW's listening to the sounds of Bob Dylan or the

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Speaker 2: Rolling Stones. At school, the punk kids were pushed to

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Speaker 2: make decisions about their future careers by the age of

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Speaker 2: twelve so that they could end up in the right

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Speaker 2: stream that would lead to well paid jobs for the

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Speaker 2: privileged few who could afford to go to university. And

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Speaker 2: that didn't happen. So that's what punk was the response to.

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Speaker 2: And instead these kids disappeared into DIY spaces and they

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Speaker 2: built a vibrant and chaotic scene. The dancing and early

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Speaker 2: punk was dead simple. If nothing else, you just pogo.

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Speaker 2: You just jump up and down in time to the music,

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Speaker 2: or not in time to the music, as I usually did.

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Speaker 2: Stage diving was a staple of early shows in particular,

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Speaker 2: which is essentially a trustful you climb up onto the stage,

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Speaker 2: breaking the rules of the venue and the barrier between

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Speaker 2: band and audience, and then jump into the crowd, trusting

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Speaker 2: that strangers will catch you. The previous generation had had

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Speaker 2: these huge stadium rock bands with their finely tuned sound,

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Speaker 2: with millionaire rock stars who were further and further from

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Speaker 2: any working classroots that they might have come from. Some

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Speaker 2: of them still sang about revolution, but it was hard

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Speaker 2: to believe them. With punk, anyone can make a band,

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Speaker 2: anyone can make a fanzine. A fanzine called Strangled put

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Speaker 2: out a cover that showed how to play three chords,

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Speaker 2: with the caption here's three chords, Now form a band.

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Speaker 1: That's great.

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Speaker 2: That's so good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great.

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Speaker 3: I always remember the the Beatles talking about walking across

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Speaker 3: town to find somebody who knew another knew how to

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Speaker 3: play another chord.

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Speaker 2: I love like even more than punk music. I love punk,

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Speaker 2: the punk ethos, and I love the idea that like

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Speaker 2: you can go to a show and listen to your

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Speaker 2: friends who suck and have an amazing time, and you

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Speaker 2: can go to a show and listen to your friends

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Speaker 2: who are amazing and have an amazing time. And your

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Speaker 2: friends who are amazing might break out of that local

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Speaker 2: scene and play nationally, or they might break bigger than

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Speaker 2: that and play internationally or signed to a label or

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Speaker 2: whatever the hell, right, But that doesn't make them better

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Speaker 2: than the band that sucks it. Just well, it makes

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Speaker 2: their music better, but it doesn't make them like as

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Speaker 2: people better, and it doesn't even necessarily make it. You're

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Speaker 2: still gonna have an amazing time at like a basement

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Speaker 2: punk show, you know, I mean, or you're gonna have

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Speaker 2: a terrible time, depending on punk is not perfect. But like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I love that about punk. I love

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Speaker 2: that And it's actually funny because it's like people complain

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Speaker 2: all the time about how everyone has podcasts, and I

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Speaker 2: sometimes complain all the time about how everyone has podcasts.

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Speaker 2: I mostly complain about how I have a lot of podcasts.

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Speaker 2: But I lovets, Oh thank you. But I love that

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Speaker 2: anyone can start a podcast, I you know, like I

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Speaker 2: love that it it's it's it's zines. It reminds me

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Speaker 2: of zines as a culture thing, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a radio zine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And some people are listened to by ten people,

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Speaker 2: and some people are listening by ten million people and whatever.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's cool.

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Speaker 1: It's a little de democratic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And if you get enough listeners, dear listener, on

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Speaker 2: your podcast, here's three chords. Start a podcast, you might

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Speaker 2: end up one day pivoting to ads. Thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 2: That's why I get paid at all. And we're back.

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Speaker 2: So you have these bands that you know, sex Pistols

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Speaker 2: is running around saying anarchy in the UK. You have

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Speaker 2: enough people run around saying anarchy in the UK long enough,

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Speaker 2: and suddenly you're going to find people who mean it.

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Speaker 2: Suddenly the anarchists are going to come onto the scene

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Speaker 2: in a major way. And if you want to be

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Speaker 2: cynical about it, to spoil next week's content, you guys

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Speaker 2: sort of this pissing contest who's like the most authentic

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Speaker 2: versus everyone else who's like a poser or sellout or whatever.

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Speaker 2: But we're not going to focus on the bad elements

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Speaker 2: of punk just yet. And no one epitomized living true

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Speaker 2: to your values more than the band Crass, at least

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Speaker 2: at first. They are the band that spearheaded this particular

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Speaker 2: wave of anarcho punk and in order to talk about crass,

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Speaker 2: we have to talk about the fact that they're all

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Speaker 2: a bunch of hippies, which is like one of my

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Speaker 2: favorite things about them, well, most of them. One of

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Speaker 2: them was a young punk.

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Speaker 1: How are we defining hippie in this sense?

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Speaker 2: I will tell you, and I believe you're gonna believe me. Well,

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Speaker 2: they wouldn't have called themselves hipies. They would have called

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Speaker 2: themselves freaks. I love that they're like from the movement

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Speaker 2: that would be called by a mainstream person like hippies,

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Speaker 2: but amongst themselves they identified as freaks. God, all that

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Speaker 2: kind of stuff gets so complicated. Like I remember, like

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Speaker 2: trying to explain to someone the difference between a krusty

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Speaker 2: and a crustpunk.

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Speaker 1: You know, yeah, yeah, exactly. I always remember this comic.

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Speaker 3: I forget what it was who drew it, but there

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Speaker 3: was this, uh, somebody's calling this woman a hippie and

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Speaker 3: she ended up doing something real tough at the end,

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Speaker 3: and she's like, I told you, I'm not a hippie.

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Speaker 1: Hippies are nice.

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Speaker 2: And what's really funny is that like Crafts are pacifists,

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Speaker 2: but they're angry about it. I wouldn't even know I

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Speaker 2: call them nice. So yeah, like I like.

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Speaker 1: Freak, that's that's uh, that's useful.

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Speaker 3: I mean coming from Houston and being out and queer

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Speaker 3: since I was thirteen, like I fully you know, experienced.

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Speaker 1: The other ring.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and like how it was so funny, like how

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Speaker 3: easy it was to be a freak growing up in

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Speaker 3: Houston in the eighties.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, I I I think it's kind of fun to

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Speaker 2: have these like labels that are non labels like queer,

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Speaker 2: you know, like freak. Kind of feels like it could

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Speaker 2: be that where you're like, I don't know whatever, there's

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Speaker 2: lots of different things. I'm not pinning it down for

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Speaker 2: you figured it out yourself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a very it's a very big banner.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And so we're going to start with two of

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Speaker 2: the folks behind Crass, a man named Penny Rimbo and

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Speaker 2: a woman named jeev Ousher. Geev Ousher was born in London.

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Speaker 2: She was the youngest of four children in a working

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Speaker 2: class family. Her older brother died at age twelve when

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Speaker 2: I think she was four. Her dad cleaned out chemical

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Speaker 2: boilers at the Ford Factory and did not live to

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Speaker 2: be old because that's not a good way to live.

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Speaker 2: To be old.

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Speaker 1: It's a terrifying job.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Her mom made sure that they still got to

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Speaker 2: go on holiday every year, but that meant they took

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Speaker 2: a car three miles down the road. When she was

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Speaker 2: sixteen or so, she went off to art school, the

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Speaker 2: South East Essex Technical College and School of Art. It's

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Speaker 2: a trade school primarily most of the students are in

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Speaker 2: the trades like welders and shit. But they have an

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Speaker 2: art school.

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Speaker 1: There too, so like probably commercial art.

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Speaker 2: Yep, exactly, that's the next line. It focused on commercial art,

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Speaker 2: graphic design, illustration, that kind of thing, and not like

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Speaker 2: art for art's sake or avant garde and not.

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Speaker 1: Like high art.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she was one of only two working class people

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Speaker 2: in the place, and she put her nose to the

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Speaker 2: grindstone and worked her ass off while her more middle

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Speaker 2: class and upper middle class peers were more willing to

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Speaker 2: just kind of fuck around. One of those people who

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Speaker 2: was willing to kind of just fuck around because he

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Speaker 2: was from a more middle class or upper middle class background,

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Speaker 2: was a man who named himself Penny Rimbo. Penny is

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Speaker 2: a girl's name in England, and I think that's worth knowing.

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Speaker 2: And I love when men take on women's names because

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Speaker 2: I did it for a decade before I came out

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Speaker 2: as trans. And also there's like a weird, just long

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Speaker 2: history of musicians doing that. The two of them, they

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Speaker 2: were more into the artsy shit than the commercial shit,

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Speaker 2: and they became friends and they fell in love. G

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Speaker 2: was a beat who dressed like a tomboy, but with

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Speaker 2: stockings and short skirt. This is the early sixties. Penny, meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: wore a combat jacket and Chelsea boots, which are those

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Speaker 2: boots that rural lesbians wear. That's like my identification with

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Speaker 2: Chelsea boots, you know, like if you're like, oh, those

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Speaker 2: boots that every queer person I know who lives in

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Speaker 2: the country whars those. Penny had been born outside of

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Speaker 2: London in nineteen forty three to a upper middle class family.

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Speaker 2: His father fought in the war World War II as

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Speaker 2: an engineer, blowing up and rebuilding bridges across Europe and Africa,

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Speaker 2: and then wound up working for the World Bank, which

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Speaker 2: is not a good way to be ethical. Penny has

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Speaker 2: dedicated his life to being a class trader, though an

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Speaker 2: awful lot has been written, and I've read an awful

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Speaker 2: lot about how class affects his politics a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: The fact that he's middle class is used against the

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Speaker 2: band Crass constantly, even though many of the members, including

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Speaker 2: the kind of primary singer, was working class. Whatever. He

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Speaker 2: rejected wealth from a young age. He wrote once quote,

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Speaker 2: ever since I was a kid, I thought that whatever

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Speaker 2: I got, i'd share. What else can you do? I

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Speaker 2: don't really believe you can change governments, but you can

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Speaker 2: change your immediate environment. You can live a life of

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Speaker 2: sharing and giving and taking. His first political campaign was

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Speaker 2: the campaign for nuclear disarmament, And it seems like he

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Speaker 2: was always very concerned about authenticity right from the start.

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Speaker 2: He's like kind of the main it seems like the

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Speaker 2: one who's just like no, anything that is not true

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Speaker 2: to our values in the following specific way is you know,

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Speaker 2: like he was into the Beatles for a while, but

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Speaker 2: then he was annoyed at them for selling out. And

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Speaker 2: at one point while he was in school, for anyone

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Speaker 2: who can't see Jolie's making a like yeah whatever, yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's like how how are what does that even mean?

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Speaker 3: They had like all those screaming girls, like they couldn't

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Speaker 3: even they couldn't even play music.

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Speaker 1: After a while, like how how could they not sell out?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like the whole discourse around selling out. We're gonna

403
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Speaker 2: talk to you about it more when we started talking

404
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Speaker 2: about like how Cress kind of developed what they developed into,

405
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Speaker 2: which I actually I mean I still like crass, but

406
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Speaker 2: like I don't give a shit about the conceptions of

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventies like UK punks about what counts the selling out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just funny.

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Speaker 3: I mean the idea that the Beatles were not sold

410
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Speaker 3: out from the beginning is also really funny.

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Speaker 1: I mean they kind of went.

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Speaker 3: The other way. They moved toward they tried to move

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Speaker 3: toward art.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they got artsy, Yeah, totally. At one point while

415
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Speaker 2: it was in school, he won a contest to make

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Speaker 2: pop art for the Beatles. But then he didn't let

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Speaker 2: the Beatles sign his painting because he didn't want them

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Speaker 2: scribbling all over his art. And that's classy, sang.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's really having a backbone right there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. G was maybe the more directly political of the

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Speaker 2: pair of them in terms of like being concerned not

422
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Speaker 2: just in like ethical values, but like political campaigns. She

423
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Speaker 2: was radicalized at school. She got really involved after the

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Speaker 2: Aberfan disaster in nineteen six sixty six. In October, a

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Speaker 2: slag heap from a coal mine slid into a Welsh village,

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Speaker 2: killing one hundred and forty four people, mostly children between

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Speaker 2: seven and ten years old. Because it crushed some schools.

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Speaker 1: Oh so sad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it the whole thing had been preventable. People

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Speaker 2: knew that it was going to happen. And I've, like

431
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Speaker 2: I live in West Virginia, I've like had some hand

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Speaker 2: in like some of the coal mining protests and stuff

433
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Speaker 2: around here, and like the same kind of stuff happens,

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Speaker 2: Like the stuff from coal mining just gets like stuffed

435
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Speaker 2: wherever they can, and they do it as cheaply as possible,

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Speaker 2: and then the dam's break and then it kills people

437
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 2: because they don't care about poor people. And that's probably

438
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 2: going to be a shocker to the listeners this podcast.

439
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 2: And after they got out of school, g goes off

440
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 2: to the Royal College of Art but was rejected from it,

441
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 2: so she starts working at an art center so that

442
00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 2: kids can come and learn art if their schools didn't

443
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 2: offer it. Penny meanwhile as an art teacher too, working

444
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,439
Speaker 2: at a continuing education center, and feminism was always on

445
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,440
Speaker 2: their minds, I actually would say that, like their commitment

446
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 2: to feminism and pacifism is like more actual part of

447
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 2: their politics than like anarchism specifically.

448
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 3: I feel like my scene of friends that loved Crass

449
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 3: were politicized.

450
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 1: By them and in a really beautiful way.

451
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 3: And I wish that that group of people had taken

452
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 3: the feminism a little bit more to heart.

453
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 2: That is an ongoing thing for Crass with their fans,

454
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 2: because like, pretty fairly shortly along in the band, there's

455
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,239
Speaker 2: like multiple women in the band and they have like

456
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 2: women are singing actively feminist songs, and then some of

457
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 2: the men start writing and singing feminist songs about like

458
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 2: how masculinity is defined and how we need to betray

459
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:53,919
Speaker 2: it and like all this stuff, and they would still

460
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 2: just be like, Yep, our fans will sing along and

461
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 2: don't do anything about it.

462
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 1: But so Ghost, it's hard. It's hard. Feminism is hard.

463
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, And G wanted to prioritize her independence, so after

464
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 2: college they both started renting rural places about ten minutes

465
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 2: away from they just like lived near each other instead

466
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 2: of moving in together. Right, she was like, well, I

467
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,439
Speaker 2: need to be my own person.

468
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 1: I love that.

469
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, And after a couple of years, and this makes

470
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 2: sense to me, you know. After a couple of years,

471
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 2: g moved in with Penny in the place that is

472
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,199
Speaker 2: now legendary, a place called dial House. And when I

473
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 2: say legendary, I mean to a very small subsection of people,

474
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: but it used to be a large subsection of people.

475
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 2: An hour outside of London, there's a town called Epping.

476
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 2: Outside of Epping, there's a village called north Weald. Outside

477
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 2: north Wild there is a cottage called dial House. UK

478
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 2: addresses are funny because a lot of the houses of names.

479
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 2: I used to laugh every time i'd send a package

480
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 2: to England when I did distro, because I'd be addressing

481
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,959
Speaker 2: it to like Icicle manor third Rock past the Lane

482
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 2: in Merlinshire or whatever. Fully, and I told this to

483
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 2: my UK friend and she pointed out that every American

484
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: address is one nine, three, two, one four, five six

485
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 2: seventy fourth Street B. She got her ass. Dial House

486
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 2: was first built in the fourteen hundreds, speaking of just

487
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: like I mean, just I don't know whatever. It was

488
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 2: built in the fourteen hundreds and slowly expanded over the centuries,

489
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 2: but it had been derelict for a long time. When

490
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 2: Penny moved in. When I first heard about dial house,

491
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 2: I just literally assumed that he was like a trust

492
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 2: fund kid and his parents had bought him a house

493
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: when he got out of school. You know, Yeah, this

494
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 2: is not what happened. He actually worked and for many,

495
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 2: many years, I think for decades they rented the place.

496
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,479
Speaker 2: It had been derelict for years, and when Penny moved in,

497
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 2: it had just been used by like local kids for parties.

498
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 2: Before then, the place was at the end of a

499
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: dirt road, and instead of pain rent for the first

500
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 2: several months or years or something, he fixed the place up.

501
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 2: At first, it wasn't anything particularly radical, just a strange

502
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 2: little place that he lived alongside eventually two of his

503
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 2: coworkers from where he taught at that school. But in

504
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy he quit that job and he wanted to

505
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 2: do something more radical with the place. He wanted to

506
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 2: build an open house. Later, he explained his dream like

507
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: this quote. I love the idea of somewhere where people

508
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 2: could stop to tell their story, with a comfortable bed

509
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: for the night, and go on their journey. My original

510
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,360
Speaker 2: dream was that if I created one of those, then

511
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 2: everyone who visited would go off and do something similar.

512
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 2: Dial house gets called commune, or it gets called an

513
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,719
Speaker 2: arts community. He gets called a lot of things. It's

514
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: an interesting model. Multiple things I've read said, like the

515
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 2: dishes are usually clean there. I think people had to

516
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 2: do their own dishes. The food was communal more or less.

517
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,360
Speaker 2: Anyone who wanted to come over could go into any

518
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 2: room they wanted that wasn't a private bedroom. If you

519
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: wanted food, you'd cook it, probably for everybody. So it's

520
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 2: basically somewhere between a collective house, a commune, and a

521
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 2: crash pad. And it's like not trash like a crash pad.

522
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 2: It's not like everything for everyone totally all the time.

523
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 2: No bedrooms like people assume communes are just seems nice.

524
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: I wonder about the tradition of that kind of stuff

525
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: in Europe and the UK, like like the like the

526
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: idea of a pub is super interesting, and that a

527
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: pub is a public house.

528
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and I and I love learning about

529
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 3: like and this is why I was reading Calvin and

530
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 3: the Witch or this is what I was looking for

531
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,199
Speaker 3: in Calvin and the Witch. Is a history of the

532
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 3: heretical movements, and a lot of them had these communal

533
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 3: situations too.

534
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like these big like the begines, Okay.

535
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 3: Like little little rumors that I've heard about them, these

536
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 3: like collectivist traditions.

537
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I wonder. I wonder where that came from.

538
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 2: For them, I wonder too, And I I think it's

539
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 2: like a I think it's developed from hippie culture, but

540
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 2: I'm not one hundred percent certain, but it is a

541
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: kind of interesting spin on it, and I like the yeah,

542
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 2: the comparison, like the public house kind of thing. His

543
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 2: two roommates were like, well, I don't want to do that.

544
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 2: I want to be able to write my name on

545
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 2: my food. And so they moved out, and other folks

546
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 2: moved in, supposedly without no one was like particularly upset

547
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 2: by this one resident. His name is Dave King. Later

548
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 2: he drew the crass logo, which if people haven't seen,

549
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: it's worth seeing. Is not a visual medium. But honestly,

550
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 2: I think the reason that Grass was successful is this logo. Like,

551
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 2: I mean, they're a good band. Well, no, they're an

552
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: interesting band, but they like they were branded really well,

553
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 2: and the crass logo is a very successful and dramatic

554
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 2: piece of symbolism. Anyway, we'll talk about that later. Dave

555
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 2: King said about the place, quote, what was very interesting

556
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 2: to me was the atmosphere of timelessness that seemed to

557
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: exist around the house. Seemed like the days could last forever,

558
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 2: and being young, you maybe also stay up all night.

559
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: There was a certain benign drift that would happen that

560
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 2: I think is the potential source of mystical experiences. Essentially,

561
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: he was saying that, like, even without drugs, there was

562
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 2: a kind of altered reality experience of like leaving the city.

563
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: That's yeah, that's beautiful.

564
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 3: That reminds me of some of my friends' houses and

565
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 3: some of my experiences of collective houses like that.

566
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: It does have this feeling of being out of time. Yeah, yeah.

567
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: Defining the sense of out of time is, uh, how

568
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: do you do that too? Does it remind you of

569
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: fairy tale? Like? What does what does that mean?

570
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 2: It makes me think literally of like the concept of

571
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 2: the land of fairy where time passes differently, years and

572
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: years go by when you just spend one night in

573
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 2: Faerry or the other way around. You know, like the

574
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 2: idea that like you go to this other place and

575
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 2: time just works differently. And I've experienced that basically in

576
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 2: places kind of like this myself too in it. I

577
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: love it.

578
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. I want to. I want to. I want

579
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: the campfire ghost story version of that.

580
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. And in Dial House, one room became a music room,

581
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 2: and soon enough people started making weird avant garde shit.

582
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 2: The Dial House folks were part of this movement called Fluxus,

583
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: which I am not an expert on. This is not

584
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: an episode on Fluxus, but this is basically the avant

585
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 2: garde movement. It is heavily inspired by our man, the

586
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 2: gay anarchist John Cage. It's into making events rather than

587
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 2: finished pieces. It's generally anti commercial. Sometimes it's like people

588
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 2: kind of call it neo data. Yoko Ono is probably

589
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 2: the most famous practitioner of this stuff today. And I

590
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 2: was going to give a weird tangent about the time

591
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: I ask you a question, but I'm not gonna do it.

592
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 2: Ah that okay, wait, no, I should probably do Okay,

593
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 2: So here's my weird tangent. So, when you were like

594
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 2: a teenager, you went and saw the the John Cage exhibit,

595
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: you know?

596
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: Yeah?

597
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, when I was sixteen, I saw Yoko on a

598
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: exhibit and I was not impressed. I was like, because

599
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 2: it didn't to me, it didn't have much Like I

600
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 2: was really into craft at the time, right, I was like,

601
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: because I didn't know what I wanted to say as

602
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 2: an artist, but I like really was like interested in

603
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 2: like people like learning the craft really well.

604
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: And yeah, like where's the chain mail?

605
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean like I mean like the like although

606
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 2: that would have interested me definitely. I was definitely making

607
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 2: chain oil at that point, but like, I mean the

608
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 2: like technical expertise and shit, you know, yes. And on

609
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 2: the wall there was like forty pictures of this blurry

610
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: it's the same blurry photo of an eye, and then

611
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 2: under each one it said like I remember this, and

612
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 2: it was like different memories related to eyes, and the

613
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 2: very first one said I remember when I was born

614
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 2: and looking up into the doctor's eyes. And I thought

615
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 2: to myself, yoko on as a liar, yoko and as

616
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: a fraud. Fuck this right, so rude?

617
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: Teenagers are so rude.

618
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 2: I was like, there's no way this lady remembers being born.

619
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 2: To hell with this, all of this is bullshit. That

620
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: was what I walked away with. The person I went

621
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 2: with was not impressed about my take on this. And

622
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 2: then I was in arts school a couple of years

623
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 2: later and Yoko Ono came and gave a talk, and

624
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 2: I like waited in line to ask a question. I

625
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: was like a young anarchist, and so everyone in the

626
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: crowd is like, ah, fuck, this bitch is gonna ask

627
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: some like fucking like shit about the World Trade Organization

628
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: or something, you know, And I get up and I

629
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: think I got her. I'm like, Yoko Ono, do you

630
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 2: remember being born? Because in my mind, if she says yes,

631
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 2: then she's lying, and if she says no, then she's lying, right, yeah,

632
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: And Yoko Ono says, oh, that's such an interesting question.

633
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 2: My first memories are reoccurring dreams of being born and

634
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 2: looking into the doctor's eyes. And I was like, oh, fuck,

635
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 2: yok Ona's legit. I'm an asshole.

636
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: You are an asshole. That's real, sweet before you go.

637
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: But I didn't. I didn't be like do you remember

638
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 2: being born?

639
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: You know?

640
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 2: I was just just like, hey, what what's up?

641
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: You know?

642
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 2: And so yeah, that was how I got convinced that

643
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 2: the art is real. Everything's fine, and so fluxus is

644
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: the super arty stuff that drives the right wing mad.

645
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 2: And also it didn't impress sixteen year old me. But

646
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 2: now I think is really cool, and honestly, like some

647
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,719
Speaker 2: of the fluxus type stuff, it doesn't really impress me personally,

648
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: or it's not it's not what I go for personally,

649
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 2: but I I respect the shit out of it, and

650
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 2: I love how much it triggers chuds, you know, and

651
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: some of it creates incredible, amazing things. So I'm not

652
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 2: whatever anyway, I swear I'm not a total philistine, just

653
00:33:54,560 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: a slightly one. Now dial House the run a weird

654
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 2: art people in their weird hippie house and four of

655
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 2: them start an arty noise band called the Stanford Rivers

656
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 2: Quartet with percussion, piano, keyboards, and flute and trombone, and

657
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 2: they would do artsy shit that's really cool, honestly, like

658
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 2: develop new styles of musical notation that were like visual art,

659
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 2: and so if you paint with red lines and that

660
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 2: it's up to the reader the musician to decide what

661
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 2: the red means in terms of how they should inflect

662
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 2: the notes as they play them and stuff like that.

663
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: Rad Yeah, no, I genuinely think it's kind of cool.

664
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 2: And then they had an avant garde band called Exit

665
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: after that, and this one lasted longer and it was

666
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,240
Speaker 2: a free jazz avant garde band and they named themselves

667
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: after quote the direction they expected the audience to head

668
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 2: in droves.

669
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: That is one marker of the success of a band

670
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: for sure. My friend Stephan Jikusco, he that was one

671
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 1: of his markers and he's he's the main brains behind

672
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: the Doughnut band that I referenced previous episode. Yeah, he

673
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: yeah stuff And to Cusco, what a genius. I love

674
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: that man. Yeah, and he's got his stuff on band

675
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 1: camp that I would love to direct people to. The

676
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: like noisy art stuff I was involved in to some

677
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: degree as a child.

678
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 2: And I remember like when I like when I started

679
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: watching like art films and stuff. For a while, I

680
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 2: was like, I don't really get it, like not even

681
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 2: just like like experimental and abstract film. And then I realized,

682
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, the way I zone out to

683
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 2: this stuff is different, and it kind of creates an

684
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: altered like an altered reality experience. And then I was like, oh,

685
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: that's the point. It's not just a narrative or whatever.

686
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is the point. And I personally hate dissociating,

687
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: so I have to. I have to. I want more

688
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: exciting experimental music. I can't. I can't deal.

689
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,879
Speaker 3: With the like long, long, long, long, empty sort of

690
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 3: like extremely slow shot kind of stuff.

691
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: But one of my favorite ways that I've heard a

692
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: lovely experimental musician describe the point of his work is

693
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 1: that he considers himself a collaborator with nature. Yeah, and

694
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: that's how he thinks about generating sound.

695
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: That makes sense. When they created Exit, there's a few

696
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 2: core members and anyone could come and go from the band,

697
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 2: so I like they're collaborating into the space they're in.

698
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,280
Speaker 2: The audience when they play can come up on stage

699
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 2: and join them. Often they start with like eight musicians

700
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 2: and end up with eighteen musicians. And they played a

701
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 2: lot of shows, especially like festival and weird art places

702
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 2: for weird art crowds, and at shows they would hand

703
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 2: out presents, art prints, packets of seeds as long as

704
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 2: the audience gets something. They never charge admission, I believe once.

705
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 2: And they always started an hour early before the set

706
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 2: time on the which is this is where they this

707
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 2: is how they punks learn from this to punk, we

708
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 2: should need to put the punctual back in punk or something.

709
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 2: They would start an hour early so that by the

710
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 2: time the audience came in. They came into quote a

711
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 2: musical environment which had not been conditioned by their presence,

712
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 2: so like the things already happening.

713
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 1: Ooh, that's so beautiful that I know.

714
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 2: And then they would play until they felt like stopping

715
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 2: or the venue turned off the power. In nineteen seventy two,

716
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 2: they threw an avant garde festival called Ices International Carnival

717
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 2: of Experimental Sound, which was about two weeks long. Penny

718
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 2: said about it, quote the great end not so great

719
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,919
Speaker 2: avant gardis worldwide came to it and performed mostly for nothing. Financially.

720
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 2: It was a disaster, but it was a fantastic festival,

721
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 2: really lovely. John Cage played at it, and one of

722
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 2: the people who helped put it on. This is a

723
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 2: complete side note. I just can't not put this in.

724
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 2: A guy named Harvey Matso was a former FBI informant

725
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 2: who testified before the House of un American Activities like

726
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 2: he was like a communist who had turned on all

727
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 2: of his friends until they found out he was actually

728
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 2: an FBI informant the whole time, until he turned on

729
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 2: the FBI, and he he turned trader and he helped

730
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 2: bring down McCarthy and spent three years in prison, and

731
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 2: then he moved to the UK because both in the US,

732
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 2: both the like left wing people and the right wing

733
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 2: people hated him and he just needed to get out.

734
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we need to make room for people to

735
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: come back. I don't know. It's hard to trust. It's

736
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: hard to trust a turncoats.

737
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 2: But yeah, I know, I know you're like, I would

738
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: hold this man at arm's length, thank him for what

739
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 2: he did, be mad at him for other stuff he did.

740
00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: It's complicated, but then he helped organize this thing, so

741
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 2: I love it. But Exit didn't last too much longer.

742
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: And why it disbanded. Okay, so it disbanded in nineteen

743
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: seventy two also, and it disbanded for kind of a

744
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 2: cool reason. Penny realized that he was being seen as

745
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 2: a guru. A lot of his students were joining the band,

746
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: and he would often like take his students out to

747
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,879
Speaker 2: the woods to like make art by just building little

748
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 2: houses for the fairies out of sticks or whatever, you know,

749
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 2: And he was like, I want to keep teaching, I

750
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 2: want to keep making music, but I'm not trying to

751
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 2: be a fucking cult leader. Like I'm not trying to

752
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 2: be weird about it.

753
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, so many cool bands from that time ended up

754
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 3: getting really culty, Like the Amazing String Band got super.

755
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: Cool, Okay, I believe it, Like yeah, they went scientologist.

756
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 2: Oh fuck, And so I just like really appreciate that.

757
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 2: He was like, no, I'm too anti Thiritearian for this,

758
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 2: Like I'm not. That's not what I'm doing here, you know.

759
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 1: It's dumb. Yeah, that was the That was the real

760
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: season of CULTI bullshit. Yeah, I mean not that we're fully.

761
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 2: Out of that, but uh, everything old is new again.

762
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: I was those collective trance people were hard into.

763
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I you know, you see how like stepping

764
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 2: outside of mainstream society is very appealing for very good reasons,

765
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 2: and that can absolutely get culty. You know, when you

766
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 2: asked earlier if I was certain air hippies, I'm going

767
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 2: to describe to you this next chunk of their life.

768
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 2: Dial House kept going and a young man named Wally

769
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 2: Hope started hanging around Penny Rimbau and a few other

770
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 2: people swore that he could do magic. Like one summer

771
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 2: day he said, hey, guys, check this out, and suddenly

772
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 2: it started snowing and there's like multiple people saying that

773
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: this happened, and other people are like, no, that didn't happen.

774
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 2: Not who were there that day that I'm aware of.

775
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: People in Crass have different opinions about this guy. He

776
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 2: was a trust fund dropout and he had visions about

777
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 2: an egalitarian society of sun worshippers who would live at Stonehenge,

778
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 2: and it was going to start on Summer Solstice nineteen

779
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 2: seventy four. They were going to go and squat Stonehenge

780
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 2: by having a music festival. Is how I know they're hippies?

781
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: Oh real, Yeah.

782
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 2: The poster read free Stonehenge off rocks off every Sunday forever.

783
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 2: And then because they're like chill, they wrote all the

784
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 2: people living near Stonehenge to give them a heads up

785
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: that they were all about to move there and like

786
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 2: become weird squatters on the land and so but here's

787
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 2: the letter that they sent. I'm going to read the

788
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 2: whole thing because I love it. On the road home,

789
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 2: there's random capitalization on the road home. Sunday, Dear sir,

790
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 2: with all well meaning respect, our Lord God and his

791
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 2: son Jesus Christ have ordained a spiritual pilgrimage to Stonehenge

792
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 2: on twentieth June twenty first, et cetera. To fulfill the

793
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 2: two commandments, Love God, love your neighbor. You are and

794
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 2: will be our neighbor. We beg for help, friendship, and trust.

795
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 2: If the gathering is overflowing big, we will give you

796
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 2: any help you need, but you might us respect. We

797
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 2: are to God's law and trying to balance the violence,

798
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 2: corruption ensuing Third World War, oily energy crisis to manual

799
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 2: communal farming, love, peace and freedom, your best mate, Wally,

800
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 2: help for the kids?

801
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 1: X my goodness, Yeah, how's that going to go over? Till?

802
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: These like rural I don't know country people out there.

803
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 2: So I don't know as much about what the actual

804
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 2: farmers made of this, but I do know what happened.

805
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 2: More broadly, a few hundred people showed up the UK's

806
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 2: first synth duo Zorch was the only band that played

807
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 2: Oh my God, and some folks stuck around for a

808
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 2: while after the festival and squatted. Their goal was to

809
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 2: lasten to a winter solstice, and everyone who was there

810
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 2: changed their name to like Wally something that's not Culty, No,

811
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 2: not at all, and then they basically just like a

812
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 2: journalist was there and was like, look, they all just

813
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,320
Speaker 2: like sat around and ate terrible food that they didn't

814
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: know how to cook, and they did drugs, and they

815
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 2: talked about lay lines and pyramids, and they were eventually

816
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 2: arrested and kicked out. The journalist was not impressed. Dear listener,

817
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:13,240
Speaker 2: I am not either, but whatever, more power to them. Likewise, Wally,

818
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 2: the original Wally, decided that there should be another one

819
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: of these festivals. But he was arrested at a squat

820
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 2: for possession of LSD, and then when he took him

821
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 2: to the prison, he refused to wear the prison uniform

822
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 2: because they said it gave him a rash, so they

823
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 2: threw him into a mental hospital where they told him

824
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 2: that he was schizophrenic and they locked him up for

825
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 2: a while. The second festival actually happened without him. They

826
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 2: actually kept happening until they were shut down violently in

827
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five. Thousands of people came there and there

828
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 2: were two stages. Joe Strummer, later of the Clash, played

829
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 2: with a band called the one oh one Ers and

830
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 2: Dial House. People honestly didn't really think much of the festival.

831
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 2: They were annoyed at the rich hippies pretending to be

832
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 2: Native Americans and like living in tepees and real and

833
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 2: on from stage called Penny and undercover cop. I think

834
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 2: because he like didn't look enough like a hippie or whatever,

835
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 2: you know, while he was too in custody to attend

836
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 2: the second festival, and he never saw the ones that

837
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 2: came after it either, because he died. It was ruled

838
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 2: as suicide, and it was probably suicide in its way,

839
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 2: but Penny was convinced for years that he'd been murdered,

840
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 2: not just done in by the horrors of nineteen seventies

841
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 2: met mental institutions, but straight up murdered and covered up

842
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 2: by the police. Penny was kind of having a rough

843
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 2: time around then. This would be the Long Dark Night

844
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: of the Soul moment in the movie. Gee had just

845
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 2: moved to New York and they broke up and they

846
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 2: actually I think this is really sweet and pretty feminist.

847
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 2: They had a divorce even though they didn't get married. Wow,

848
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 2: and they're like gonna be friends and co collaborators to

849
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 2: this day, Like they're both still alive. If you're listening,

850
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:56,760
Speaker 2: I hope I did this right, and I'm sure I didn't.

851
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 2: There's so much written about you all. There's so much. Anyway,

852
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 2: Penny was drinking heavily and a lot of his like

853
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 2: peaceful hippie outlook was getting replaced by the fear of

854
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 2: repression by the state because he was like, they just

855
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 2: killed my friend, right, and he was investigating his friend's death,

856
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,919
Speaker 2: and the cops would tell him like hey, They would

857
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,240
Speaker 2: like pop by and be like, hey, you need to stop.

858
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: You need to stop investigating this death. And so he

859
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 2: wrote a whole book with all of his evidence called

860
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 2: Homage to Catatonia, which is a sick pun on the

861
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 2: Homage to Catalonia. Absolutely, he later burned it. It was

862
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 2: never published that I can tell. There's multiple other people

863
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 2: who have used this title for other things over the years.

864
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 2: But and then another Wally, like another person from the

865
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 2: Stonehenge encampment, was murdered, probably by like local rednecks. Basically

866
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 2: he was tied to a tree with a joint in

867
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 2: his hand. It was like an anti hippie murder. Probably. Yeah,

868
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 2: these days, Penny is less sure that the original Wally

869
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 2: was murdered directly so much as killed by the heart

870
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 2: of the medical system.

871
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 1: It's really creepy that the cops kept coming around and

872
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: saying stop looking look into this. I mean, that's those

873
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:08,919
Speaker 1: are red flags right there.

874
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 2: I know absolutely, you know. And when I say he's

875
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,439
Speaker 2: less short, I mean he's less short, not he is short,

876
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 2: you know, like just it's a to many people, it's

877
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 2: an open question. But in some ways an arcopunk was

878
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 2: born from the innocence of the hippies being bashed up

879
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 2: against the injustices of the mental health and judicial systems,

880
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: and they saw themselves as a response to the failure

881
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 2: of the hippie movement to fundamentally change society. Dialhouse started

882
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 2: realizing society wasn't changing. Things were getting worse. Penny Rimbo,

883
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 2: in his book The Last of the Hippies wrote, Oh,

884
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 2: that's the other reason I can call him a hippie.

885
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 2: He wrote, Society, the state in the system hadn't fucked off.

886
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 2: They'd not only stayed right they were they'd grown stronger. Slowly,

887
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 2: as people woke up to the fact that turning on

888
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: was turning off and dropping out was copying out, the

889
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 2: horrific reality of the nuclear world forced its way back

890
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:17,720
Speaker 2: through the escapist blur of those psychedelic dreams. The dream

891
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 2: had been that if you created your own life independent

892
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: of the system, the system would leave you to it.

893
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 2: Looking back on it now, it seems pathetically naive, but

894
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 2: for maybe fifteen years it had sustained the lives of

895
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 2: thousands of people. The ultimate failure of the hippie was

896
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 2: exactly the ostrich like approach to life. A hippie utopia

897
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 2: surrounded by a world of hate and war was like

898
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:42,439
Speaker 2: snow before the summer sun.

899
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

900
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 3: I mean I always think about how mindfulness was used

901
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 3: by the Japanese military.

902
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. I have like conversations a lot with one of

903
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 2: my therapist friends about, like, I love cognitive behavioral therapy

904
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 2: and the ability to brainwash yourself like gotten me it's

905
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 2: it's probably saved my life. But my therapist friend, a

906
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 2: different one than the one you taught me cognit behavioral

907
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 2: therapy was like, but it gets used to get people

908
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 2: to accept things that they shouldn't accept.

909
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, as a tool.

910
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. And Penny also wrote quote, I think people like

911
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 2: Jagger and Bowie stole our hopes and turned them into money.

912
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,760
Speaker 2: Their castles are built on our money, the movement's money.

913
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,240
Speaker 2: Bowie could have done something, but he didn't do anything.

914
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 3: I'm friends with somebody who played drums with Bowie.

915
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 1: For years. Oh shit, And he said like that man

916
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 1: was obsessed with money, and I thought, I think to myself, like,

917
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 1: all right, you're lucky.

918
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 3: You're a drummer. You get paid as a band leader.

919
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:52,280
Speaker 3: This is my defense of Bowie.

920
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 1: In that moment. I was like, you have to be yes, yeah,

921
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 1: it is hard to pay a band and be on

922
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 1: the road, and it's like one of the most expensive

923
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 1: small businesses you can run is a band. Yeah, but

924
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: I appreciate what he's saying about Bowie collectively. Is is

925
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 1: that like in response and you know, in relation to

926
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: the collective dreams. It's like this man wove some beautiful

927
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 1: spells that a lot of people responded to. But yeah,

928
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 1: I think he's just an artist.

929
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

930
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: No.

931
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: And it's funny because like if you read different people

932
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 2: in Crass talking about Bowie, Penny fucking hates Bowie, right,

933
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 2: but like Steve Ignorant is like, oh no, yeah, I

934
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 2: really like Bowie, like you know, did a lot for

935
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 2: like being able to dress up like a freak. And

936
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,320
Speaker 2: you know, it's like and you just have like people

937
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 2: have different thoughts about him, but the thing you're saying

938
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 2: about like yeah, like yeah, as a band leader, you

939
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 2: have to be obsessed with money. Someone needs to make

940
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 2: sure that people get paid. And I think, what's so funny.

941
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 2: We'll probably talk about this more like in future episodes too,

942
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 2: but like, you know, you have this like, oh, we're

943
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 2: all going to become rock stars and become millionaires off

944
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 2: the back of everyone who buys their stuff, and then

945
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 2: you have this reaction and an arcopunk is absolutely reaction,

946
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 2: and they're like, we won't get rich, you know they do,

947
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 2: Like I think that they're like eating some food, right,

948
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 2: but they are like really sticking to their guns about

949
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 2: keeping their products cheap, their shows, like you know they are.

950
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 2: They stay earnest their entire lives to this, right, And

951
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 2: then so you end up with this like in order

952
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 2: to be an activist you have to volunteer for it

953
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 2: kind of attitude for decades and in the past like

954
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 2: ten fifteen years, that's starting to break and people are

955
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 2: starting to as what we were saying earlier, being these

956
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 2: two ideas can be in conversation with each other, Right, Yeah,

957
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 2: you have your initial idea, fuck ya get rich, and

958
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 2: then you have your other idea like, no, you must

959
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 2: live like a monk to have good politics. And then

960
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 2: also in a society with good social services, and then

961
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 2: you have people being like, oh, that critique is really valid,

962
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 2: but I need to get paid in order to do this.

963
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 2: You know.

964
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a job. It's a really hard job.

965
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and most people need jobs. But what did

966
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 2: we're actually at the end of this episode what they

967
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 2: do instead of being hippies forever. You already know, they

968
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 2: become crass and they change the world. But how exactly

969
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 2: it happens we're going to talk about next week. But

970
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 2: first we're going to talk about how people can support

971
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,439
Speaker 2: you with your job of making music or just listen

972
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 2: to the music, or do whatever else you want people

973
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 2: to do besides starting a cult. You're not allowed to

974
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:31,720
Speaker 2: start a cult.

975
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 1: No, I don't. I was raised in a cult. That's

976
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:35,320
Speaker 1: why I was a homeless teenager.

977
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 2: Oh okay, cool, I was.

978
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was brought up in a stupid fundamentalist religious

979
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 1: group and that's why I was on the street. But

980
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:49,839
Speaker 1: my shop is open whenever I'm not on tour, and

981
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 1: that's a Jollihand music dot com or come see me.

982
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 2: On tour a touring anytime soon.

983
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 1: I'm mostly playing private shows up the West Coast and

984
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:06,879
Speaker 1: then I have a show March sixth in Bellingham at

985
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 1: the odd Fellows, and I'm playing Chicago at Constellation on

986
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: March fifteenth, so y'all come see me. Oh yeah, I'm

987
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: going to play. I'm going to play with my friend's

988
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 1: health and Beauty in Chicago. It's going to be great.

989
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 2: And if people want Julie's merch, it is beautiful. Like

990
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 2: I don't frame every random show or music related thing

991
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 2: that I get, and.

992
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 1: I'm so honored, thank you. And that illustration is by

993
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:44,399
Speaker 1: Jack Follows, who's a really gorgeous non binary anarchist game

994
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 1: designer who you should follow on Patreon.

995
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, and uh, for my own plugs, I already

996
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 2: plugged that. I have a book. It's a book. It's

997
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 2: called The Immortal Choir holds every voice. And I also

998
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 2: have a substack, and all the important posts are free,

999
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 2: and all of the posts that are more personal, some

1000
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:04,320
Speaker 2: of the posts that are more personal or behind a paywall,

1001
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 2: and you can follow me there on whatever level of

1002
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 2: free or not free you feel like. And also, I

1003
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,359
Speaker 2: don't know, times are hard, but we can take care

1004
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 2: of each other. That's my plug, take care of each other.

1005
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 2: We're gonna mostly get through this, most of us, and

1006
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 2: that's the way it always is going to be, because

1007
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 2: none of us were getting out of this is a

1008
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 2: live thing. When you're alive, you're guaranteed to die. That's

1009
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:32,399
Speaker 2: what keeps me happy. Why am I rambling? I need

1010
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 2: to go eat food, but I will see you all

1011
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 2: next week.

1012
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 4: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1013
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 4: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,

1014
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 4: visit our website Foolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

1015
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 4: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1016
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 2: You get your podcasts.