1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:23,916 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I try to be a fairly honest person, but 2 00:00:23,996 --> 00:00:26,876 Speaker 1: there's one situation in which I'm often tempted to lie. 3 00:00:27,556 --> 00:00:31,236 Speaker 1: It's when someone asks me that innocent question, how are you? 4 00:00:32,116 --> 00:00:37,116 Speaker 1: My default answer feels pretty automatic, I'm fine, how are you? Now? 5 00:00:37,276 --> 00:00:39,516 Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong. A lot of the time I 6 00:00:39,596 --> 00:00:42,556 Speaker 1: am fine, But there are also days when I'm really 7 00:00:42,596 --> 00:00:45,316 Speaker 1: down about something, and when people try to check in 8 00:00:45,356 --> 00:00:47,996 Speaker 1: on those days, my first instinct is to keep whatever 9 00:00:48,036 --> 00:00:51,276 Speaker 1: sadness I'm going through to myself, kind of like a 10 00:00:51,276 --> 00:00:54,356 Speaker 1: stiff upper lip thing. Not mentioning it when we're feeling 11 00:00:54,356 --> 00:00:56,996 Speaker 1: low seems like what we're supposed to do, but the 12 00:00:57,076 --> 00:00:59,516 Speaker 1: science shows that when it comes to emotions like sadness, 13 00:00:59,756 --> 00:01:02,596 Speaker 1: the reflex to put on a happy face is actually 14 00:01:02,636 --> 00:01:05,996 Speaker 1: making us feel worse. Our silence about feeling blue also 15 00:01:06,076 --> 00:01:08,636 Speaker 1: means that we're missing out on opportunities to make meaningful 16 00:01:08,676 --> 00:01:11,836 Speaker 1: connection with the people around us, whether they're close friends 17 00:01:12,076 --> 00:01:15,196 Speaker 1: or even total strangers. So in this episode in our 18 00:01:15,236 --> 00:01:18,196 Speaker 1: series on Difficult Emotions, we'll say to heck with a 19 00:01:18,236 --> 00:01:22,036 Speaker 1: stiff upper lip mantra, we're going to start talking about sadness. 20 00:01:22,436 --> 00:01:24,876 Speaker 1: We'll find out what our everyday sorrows are trying to 21 00:01:24,876 --> 00:01:27,036 Speaker 1: tell us, and we'll learn what we can do to 22 00:01:27,116 --> 00:01:30,996 Speaker 1: feel sad better. You're listening to the Happiness Lab with me, 23 00:01:31,236 --> 00:01:37,236 Speaker 1: Doctor Laurie Santos. Our guide today into the world of 24 00:01:37,276 --> 00:01:40,676 Speaker 1: sadness is journalist Helen Russell. Helen is the author of 25 00:01:40,676 --> 00:01:43,596 Speaker 1: a recent book entitled How to Be Sad Everything I've 26 00:01:43,676 --> 00:01:47,796 Speaker 1: Learned about getting happier by being sad Better. Before Helen 27 00:01:47,836 --> 00:01:49,836 Speaker 1: got into the sadness beat, she spent a lot of 28 00:01:49,836 --> 00:01:53,556 Speaker 1: her journalistic career writing about happiness. She penned a lot 29 00:01:53,596 --> 00:01:56,836 Speaker 1: of magazine articles that made achieving happiness sound like a 30 00:01:56,876 --> 00:02:00,076 Speaker 1: holy grail. I bewauque in women's magazines for about twelve 31 00:02:00,156 --> 00:02:03,156 Speaker 1: years at this point, and every feature, in some way 32 00:02:03,236 --> 00:02:06,476 Speaker 1: or another, was really at its core trying to look 33 00:02:06,476 --> 00:02:08,676 Speaker 1: at how we could get happier, and it felt as 34 00:02:08,676 --> 00:02:11,116 Speaker 1: though that was something we were all aiming for, but 35 00:02:11,236 --> 00:02:13,196 Speaker 1: none of us were quite getting there. And I was 36 00:02:13,236 --> 00:02:14,916 Speaker 1: living in a big city, you know. It was a big, 37 00:02:14,956 --> 00:02:17,636 Speaker 1: stressful job and a stressful life and living at a 38 00:02:17,676 --> 00:02:20,676 Speaker 1: fast pace, as many people do in cities. So this 39 00:02:20,716 --> 00:02:22,836 Speaker 1: idea that there could be another way of life was 40 00:02:22,876 --> 00:02:26,156 Speaker 1: really haunting me. So back when we could travel and 41 00:02:26,236 --> 00:02:28,916 Speaker 1: I would give talks or go to book events, and 42 00:02:28,956 --> 00:02:31,196 Speaker 1: people would ask, how can I be happy? And this 43 00:02:31,276 --> 00:02:34,036 Speaker 1: was often at times in their life when really, really 44 00:02:34,076 --> 00:02:36,556 Speaker 1: tough things had happened. So I had someone who'd recently 45 00:02:36,556 --> 00:02:38,916 Speaker 1: lost a loved one, people who'd been made redundant or 46 00:02:38,956 --> 00:02:41,996 Speaker 1: been made homeless, or suffered a bad break up, and 47 00:02:42,116 --> 00:02:43,796 Speaker 1: still there was a sense of, well, how can I 48 00:02:43,836 --> 00:02:46,756 Speaker 1: be happy? And it just struck me that there seemed 49 00:02:46,796 --> 00:02:49,716 Speaker 1: to be no bandwidth there to say, actually, maybe we're 50 00:02:49,756 --> 00:02:51,876 Speaker 1: not supposed to be happy right now. Maybe sadness is 51 00:02:51,916 --> 00:02:55,196 Speaker 1: what we're supposed to feel when we experience loss or disappointment. 52 00:02:55,316 --> 00:02:58,356 Speaker 1: But this seemed culturally inacceptable, or at least not what 53 00:02:58,396 --> 00:03:01,556 Speaker 1: people wanted, and I became fascinated by this. I'd just thought, 54 00:03:01,636 --> 00:03:03,756 Speaker 1: that can't be. It can't be that we shut down 55 00:03:03,876 --> 00:03:06,916 Speaker 1: one big swathe of our emotions. And I've done it 56 00:03:06,996 --> 00:03:09,916 Speaker 1: myself over years of pursuing happiness and trying to find 57 00:03:09,916 --> 00:03:12,076 Speaker 1: out all I can about it. There is this real 58 00:03:12,116 --> 00:03:14,716 Speaker 1: reluctance to be sad. And I just found that really 59 00:03:14,716 --> 00:03:18,036 Speaker 1: interesting and wondered where that had come from, what effect 60 00:03:18,076 --> 00:03:19,916 Speaker 1: it had on us, and how we could be living 61 00:03:19,956 --> 00:03:22,996 Speaker 1: a little better and in a happier way, ultimately by 62 00:03:23,036 --> 00:03:26,276 Speaker 1: embracing our sadness too. Although this was something that you 63 00:03:26,436 --> 00:03:28,836 Speaker 1: personally struggled with a wire, I mean, if you're comfortable 64 00:03:28,876 --> 00:03:31,036 Speaker 1: sharing it, I'd love to hear your story of the 65 00:03:31,156 --> 00:03:33,796 Speaker 1: very bad thing that really affected your whole life up 66 00:03:33,796 --> 00:03:36,876 Speaker 1: to me. All right, yeah, of course. So growing up 67 00:03:36,956 --> 00:03:39,116 Speaker 1: it was me and my mom and my dad and 68 00:03:39,196 --> 00:03:41,876 Speaker 1: I had a baby sister, and then just before I 69 00:03:41,916 --> 00:03:45,356 Speaker 1: turned three, my sister died of sudden infant death syndrome, 70 00:03:45,636 --> 00:03:49,036 Speaker 1: and nobody really talked about it. This was in the 71 00:03:49,036 --> 00:03:52,516 Speaker 1: early eighties. There was still this idea of almost keep 72 00:03:52,516 --> 00:03:54,476 Speaker 1: calm and carry on. What you don't talk about can't 73 00:03:54,556 --> 00:03:57,516 Speaker 1: hurt you. And nobody talked about it. No one talked 74 00:03:57,516 --> 00:03:58,916 Speaker 1: about it to my mom, No one talked about it 75 00:03:58,916 --> 00:04:01,636 Speaker 1: to me. My parents split up just a few months after. 76 00:04:01,836 --> 00:04:04,356 Speaker 1: Nobody really talked about that either. Suddenly my dad wasn't 77 00:04:04,356 --> 00:04:07,156 Speaker 1: there anymore, and within the space of three months, I'd 78 00:04:07,156 --> 00:04:09,996 Speaker 1: lost my sister, I'd lost my dad. Nobody talked about it. 79 00:04:10,436 --> 00:04:12,756 Speaker 1: We all just tried to be cheerful and just to 80 00:04:12,796 --> 00:04:15,596 Speaker 1: carry on, and really we tried to sort of get 81 00:04:15,596 --> 00:04:18,276 Speaker 1: our validation from outside. I went to school and tried 82 00:04:18,316 --> 00:04:20,116 Speaker 1: to be a massive people pleaser and just tried other 83 00:04:20,116 --> 00:04:23,156 Speaker 1: ways to make my mum happy, and we all just 84 00:04:23,276 --> 00:04:25,516 Speaker 1: carried on using all of the crutches that you might 85 00:04:25,556 --> 00:04:30,116 Speaker 1: imagine to anesthetize that pain and to distract ourselves. And yes, 86 00:04:30,156 --> 00:04:33,116 Speaker 1: it took a long time, through all of my research 87 00:04:33,156 --> 00:04:36,276 Speaker 1: into happiness and trying to understand from a journalist perspective, 88 00:04:36,316 --> 00:04:39,076 Speaker 1: just digging into the different fields and the science out 89 00:04:39,076 --> 00:04:41,196 Speaker 1: there to really come to terms of the fact that 90 00:04:41,236 --> 00:04:43,636 Speaker 1: I had been running away as well from sadness, and 91 00:04:43,636 --> 00:04:47,476 Speaker 1: that I also had this massive reluctance, and digging deeper 92 00:04:47,516 --> 00:04:50,516 Speaker 1: into that, I came to understand that actually that loss 93 00:04:50,596 --> 00:04:53,596 Speaker 1: really early on, and that inability to properly grieve that 94 00:04:53,676 --> 00:04:57,276 Speaker 1: loss has impacted on so many different areas of my life. 95 00:04:57,596 --> 00:05:00,076 Speaker 1: And this just feels like something I don't want anyone 96 00:05:00,076 --> 00:05:01,676 Speaker 1: else to have to go through. There's a way that 97 00:05:02,156 --> 00:05:04,556 Speaker 1: we can get better about talking about this kind of 98 00:05:04,556 --> 00:05:06,956 Speaker 1: thing than we should. So the first step in talking 99 00:05:06,956 --> 00:05:09,396 Speaker 1: about it, I guess, is to define it. And you know, 100 00:05:09,436 --> 00:05:13,356 Speaker 1: how would you define this idea of sadness? What is sadness? Well, 101 00:05:13,396 --> 00:05:16,156 Speaker 1: I would say that sadness is the temporary emotion that 102 00:05:16,196 --> 00:05:19,556 Speaker 1: we feel on occasions we've been hurt or something is 103 00:05:19,556 --> 00:05:22,076 Speaker 1: wrong in our lives. It's like a message. It can 104 00:05:22,076 --> 00:05:25,076 Speaker 1: tell us when something is wrong, that sort of niggling feeling, 105 00:05:25,116 --> 00:05:27,316 Speaker 1: but we do have to listen. If we don't listen, 106 00:05:27,436 --> 00:05:30,156 Speaker 1: it's more likely to tip into something more serious, and 107 00:05:30,236 --> 00:05:32,596 Speaker 1: also it's more likely to stay with us for longer. 108 00:05:32,796 --> 00:05:35,436 Speaker 1: So depression is a chronic mental illness that needs help, 109 00:05:35,436 --> 00:05:38,196 Speaker 1: and spoiler alert, I've experienced that as well, but sadness 110 00:05:38,276 --> 00:05:41,196 Speaker 1: can be awakening. So I want to do really clear 111 00:05:41,396 --> 00:05:46,036 Speaker 1: on the distinction between sadness and depression. And of course, yeah, 112 00:05:46,116 --> 00:05:48,716 Speaker 1: depression you're going to need help, But normal sadness we 113 00:05:48,796 --> 00:05:51,676 Speaker 1: will all experience that at some time or another, and 114 00:05:51,676 --> 00:05:53,436 Speaker 1: if we don't know how to handle it, then it's 115 00:05:53,436 --> 00:05:57,476 Speaker 1: going to feel very isolating. And I think the idea 116 00:05:57,516 --> 00:06:00,236 Speaker 1: that what we don't talk about can't hurt us is 117 00:06:00,276 --> 00:06:03,116 Speaker 1: really problematic because we know now from studies that actually 118 00:06:03,116 --> 00:06:06,556 Speaker 1: suppressing negative thoughts doesn't work. It can make us feel worse, 119 00:06:07,036 --> 00:06:11,716 Speaker 1: and experiencing this temper very sadness, counterintuitively can make us happier. 120 00:06:11,796 --> 00:06:15,036 Speaker 1: We have a greater retention to detail, increased perseverance when 121 00:06:15,076 --> 00:06:17,676 Speaker 1: more generous, when more grateful for what we've got. And 122 00:06:17,756 --> 00:06:21,276 Speaker 1: actually it's quite a creative time. When everything's fine, there 123 00:06:21,356 --> 00:06:24,036 Speaker 1: is no impetus almost to do anything different. We'll do 124 00:06:24,076 --> 00:06:26,276 Speaker 1: that same thing again because it made us happy. But 125 00:06:26,356 --> 00:06:29,076 Speaker 1: when we are sad, it's almost a problem solving type 126 00:06:29,116 --> 00:06:32,036 Speaker 1: of motion. We're thinking about our next step. So it 127 00:06:32,076 --> 00:06:35,196 Speaker 1: really serves a purpose as well. And yeah, I'm here 128 00:06:35,236 --> 00:06:39,516 Speaker 1: to rehabilitate sadness. I love this idea of rehabilitating sadness. 129 00:06:39,556 --> 00:06:42,036 Speaker 1: But I wanted to get to another misconception about sadness 130 00:06:42,036 --> 00:06:43,796 Speaker 1: that I think so many of us have, which is 131 00:06:43,796 --> 00:06:47,436 Speaker 1: that it only comes during awful circumstances. You know, so 132 00:06:47,476 --> 00:06:50,756 Speaker 1: a sibling dies, your parents get divorced. But one of 133 00:06:50,796 --> 00:06:52,356 Speaker 1: the things I loved about your book is that you 134 00:06:52,436 --> 00:06:55,556 Speaker 1: often talk about cases where good things are happening and 135 00:06:55,596 --> 00:06:57,556 Speaker 1: sadness can come up, you know, So tell me a 136 00:06:57,596 --> 00:07:00,036 Speaker 1: little bit about this arrival fallacy that you talk about 137 00:07:00,076 --> 00:07:02,636 Speaker 1: in your book. Yes, so, I love this idea. I 138 00:07:02,636 --> 00:07:04,916 Speaker 1: think many of us will think that the big events 139 00:07:04,916 --> 00:07:07,436 Speaker 1: in life, the big kind of greeting card events like 140 00:07:07,556 --> 00:07:09,676 Speaker 1: marriage or having a baby, that these the times we're 141 00:07:09,716 --> 00:07:13,396 Speaker 1: supposed to feel happiest, and often when we get there, 142 00:07:13,436 --> 00:07:15,756 Speaker 1: we perhaps don't, and then we feel a sense of 143 00:07:15,756 --> 00:07:18,636 Speaker 1: anti climax. We feel guilty. Often there is a shame 144 00:07:18,636 --> 00:07:22,516 Speaker 1: attached to it. So doctor Talben Shaha from Harvard coined 145 00:07:22,556 --> 00:07:25,356 Speaker 1: the term a rival fallacy to describe this anti climax 146 00:07:25,836 --> 00:07:27,916 Speaker 1: or almost like summit syndrome. You get to the top 147 00:07:27,916 --> 00:07:30,236 Speaker 1: of that mountain, it doesn't feel the way you hoped. 148 00:07:30,596 --> 00:07:34,156 Speaker 1: And I spoke to you mountaineers and adventurers and extreme 149 00:07:34,196 --> 00:07:37,236 Speaker 1: athletes and many people who are setting themselves these challenges 150 00:07:37,676 --> 00:07:39,476 Speaker 1: and they'd reach their goal, they'd get to the north 151 00:07:39,516 --> 00:07:41,596 Speaker 1: pole and look around and feel, oh, it looks a 152 00:07:41,596 --> 00:07:44,116 Speaker 1: bit surety, it looks a bit shabby, and it never 153 00:07:44,236 --> 00:07:47,156 Speaker 1: quite measures up, which makes sense, you know, from a 154 00:07:47,196 --> 00:07:49,476 Speaker 1: scientific point of view. The dopamine is in the chase, 155 00:07:49,476 --> 00:07:51,636 Speaker 1: and when we get the thing we want, we feel nothing. 156 00:07:51,676 --> 00:07:54,596 Speaker 1: It drops off. But it's very hard to remember that 157 00:07:54,716 --> 00:07:58,596 Speaker 1: in normal life. So I think a rival fallacy was 158 00:07:58,636 --> 00:08:02,276 Speaker 1: originally coined to talk about things perhaps in a work context, 159 00:08:02,396 --> 00:08:05,236 Speaker 1: or these big goals, but it can just as easily 160 00:08:05,236 --> 00:08:08,116 Speaker 1: apply to things like marriage or becoming a parent, or 161 00:08:08,396 --> 00:08:10,676 Speaker 1: being in a long term relationship or getting that promotion. 162 00:08:10,996 --> 00:08:13,356 Speaker 1: The more typical things that many of us will experience 163 00:08:13,396 --> 00:08:15,756 Speaker 1: in our life that we think will bring us happiness 164 00:08:15,836 --> 00:08:18,636 Speaker 1: but actually can make us feel quite flat and aren't 165 00:08:18,676 --> 00:08:21,956 Speaker 1: all they seem so. I certainly experienced this when, after 166 00:08:22,516 --> 00:08:26,796 Speaker 1: years of infertility, I finally managed to get pregnant, and 167 00:08:26,836 --> 00:08:28,956 Speaker 1: I thought, well, now all my problems will go away 168 00:08:28,996 --> 00:08:31,876 Speaker 1: because now I got the thing I wanted. It will 169 00:08:31,916 --> 00:08:34,956 Speaker 1: be the sound of music forevermore. And of course that's 170 00:08:34,956 --> 00:08:36,796 Speaker 1: not the case. Being a new parent is hard. I 171 00:08:36,876 --> 00:08:39,436 Speaker 1: was very steep deprived. My small child shouted at me 172 00:08:39,476 --> 00:08:41,916 Speaker 1: a lot. So although I was very grateful, there was 173 00:08:41,996 --> 00:08:44,556 Speaker 1: a real sense of shame, thinking, well, why aren't I happy? 174 00:08:44,556 --> 00:08:46,476 Speaker 1: This was what I wanted, I got it. Why aren't 175 00:08:46,476 --> 00:08:49,316 Speaker 1: I happy? And the same with relationships. Relationships are hard, 176 00:08:49,476 --> 00:08:51,716 Speaker 1: and I think it's really helpful to talk about these 177 00:08:51,756 --> 00:08:53,796 Speaker 1: things so that we don't feel that shame and that 178 00:08:53,876 --> 00:08:58,436 Speaker 1: guilt and feel so alone. We're all experiencing this, and 179 00:08:58,476 --> 00:09:01,076 Speaker 1: so this is I think the trickiest thing about sadness. 180 00:09:01,156 --> 00:09:03,956 Speaker 1: Right when awful things happen, we're sad. Sometimes when we 181 00:09:03,956 --> 00:09:06,196 Speaker 1: get what we want, we wind up sad. And in 182 00:09:06,196 --> 00:09:08,636 Speaker 1: all these cases, we don't really like being sad. We 183 00:09:08,756 --> 00:09:10,996 Speaker 1: kind of he did, but you've really argued that we 184 00:09:10,996 --> 00:09:13,436 Speaker 1: can be sad well, that our current approach to negative 185 00:09:13,436 --> 00:09:15,836 Speaker 1: emotions is not working. Talk to me a little bit 186 00:09:15,836 --> 00:09:18,276 Speaker 1: about why the current approach isn't doing for us what 187 00:09:18,316 --> 00:09:21,916 Speaker 1: we needed to do. So. The Harvard psychologist Daniel Wagner 188 00:09:22,036 --> 00:09:24,916 Speaker 1: famously led the thought experiment in nineteen eighty seven, where 189 00:09:24,956 --> 00:09:27,356 Speaker 1: subjects were told not to think about white bears. This 190 00:09:27,596 --> 00:09:31,036 Speaker 1: was inspired by Dostoyevsky, the Russian writer, who wrote, try 191 00:09:31,076 --> 00:09:33,596 Speaker 1: to pose for yourself this task not to think of 192 00:09:33,636 --> 00:09:35,716 Speaker 1: a polar bear, and you will see that the cursed 193 00:09:35,756 --> 00:09:37,956 Speaker 1: thing will come to mind every minute. And so he 194 00:09:37,996 --> 00:09:39,996 Speaker 1: started doing these tests that if you asked someone not 195 00:09:40,076 --> 00:09:42,316 Speaker 1: to think about something, they will think about it more, 196 00:09:42,396 --> 00:09:45,116 Speaker 1: and found that actually trying not to think about difficult 197 00:09:45,116 --> 00:09:48,716 Speaker 1: emotions can backfire spectacularly. So it's not just that we 198 00:09:48,716 --> 00:09:51,796 Speaker 1: perhaps don't want to feel sad. There's no point resisting 199 00:09:51,796 --> 00:09:54,676 Speaker 1: that sadness because it will pop up somewhere, there's no 200 00:09:54,756 --> 00:09:57,236 Speaker 1: getting away from it. The New University of New South 201 00:09:57,276 --> 00:10:01,396 Speaker 1: Wales have found these positive things about allowing for temporary sadness. 202 00:10:01,676 --> 00:10:04,156 Speaker 1: It's also an emotion of connection. It's often when we 203 00:10:04,236 --> 00:10:08,756 Speaker 1: feel closest to each other, and there's value in it. 204 00:10:09,196 --> 00:10:11,956 Speaker 1: You know, Darwin denied the usefulness of tears, but actually 205 00:10:11,996 --> 00:10:14,356 Speaker 1: studies now show that when we cry, we lower our 206 00:10:14,396 --> 00:10:17,516 Speaker 1: levels of cortisol, we are soothing ourselves, we're expressing our emotion. 207 00:10:17,756 --> 00:10:22,196 Speaker 1: So it all has a value. And I think culturally 208 00:10:22,916 --> 00:10:25,156 Speaker 1: we can learn a lot from the way other cultures 209 00:10:25,276 --> 00:10:27,276 Speaker 1: handle their sadness. So you say, we don't want to 210 00:10:27,316 --> 00:10:30,556 Speaker 1: feel sad, but actually that's a particularly American point of view. 211 00:10:30,836 --> 00:10:33,556 Speaker 1: That Americans are outliers in their desire to minimize and 212 00:10:33,596 --> 00:10:36,956 Speaker 1: avoid sadness at all costs, whereas in other cultures there 213 00:10:37,036 --> 00:10:39,396 Speaker 1: is more of an acceptance of sadness. In East Asian culture, 214 00:10:39,396 --> 00:10:42,236 Speaker 1: for example, it's more accepted that you can feel happy 215 00:10:42,236 --> 00:10:44,716 Speaker 1: and sad at the same time. There is more nuance, 216 00:10:44,796 --> 00:10:49,556 Speaker 1: more ambiguity, more granularity. I spoke to researchers in Russia, 217 00:10:49,676 --> 00:10:53,156 Speaker 1: where actually there is real value placed on being sad. 218 00:10:53,276 --> 00:10:56,836 Speaker 1: It's considered quite a positive thing. The Russian professor Yulia 219 00:10:57,036 --> 00:10:59,876 Speaker 1: chensover dotton the idea that being sad makes you a 220 00:10:59,916 --> 00:11:03,116 Speaker 1: better person. In Russia, so I think that's really helpful 221 00:11:03,116 --> 00:11:05,396 Speaker 1: to remember. We've all read the research that you happier 222 00:11:05,436 --> 00:11:08,636 Speaker 1: people are healthier, But actually again that's in the US, 223 00:11:08,836 --> 00:11:13,756 Speaker 1: where people experiencing lower positive emotions have perhaps higher BMI's, 224 00:11:13,876 --> 00:11:17,036 Speaker 1: less healthily blood lipid profiles. I'm from the UK, where 225 00:11:17,036 --> 00:11:19,276 Speaker 1: it's a similar approach to the US, but if you 226 00:11:19,276 --> 00:11:21,916 Speaker 1: look at Japan, it makes no difference. You can feel 227 00:11:21,916 --> 00:11:24,316 Speaker 1: sad and be absolutely fine. So it's a cultural things 228 00:11:24,356 --> 00:11:26,796 Speaker 1: how we feel about being sad that impacts that being 229 00:11:26,836 --> 00:11:29,996 Speaker 1: sad only makes you sick if you're terrified of being sad. 230 00:11:30,876 --> 00:11:32,836 Speaker 1: When we get back from the break, we'll hear more 231 00:11:32,836 --> 00:11:34,916 Speaker 1: about what we tend to get wrong when it comes 232 00:11:34,956 --> 00:11:37,676 Speaker 1: to sadness and how we can all be sad a 233 00:11:37,716 --> 00:11:49,556 Speaker 1: little better. The Happiness Lab will be right back. Experiencing 234 00:11:49,596 --> 00:11:55,196 Speaker 1: sadness is uncomfortable, sometimes really uncomfortable. It's one of those 235 00:11:55,236 --> 00:11:58,676 Speaker 1: negative emotions that we just don't like to tolerate. It's 236 00:11:58,676 --> 00:12:01,596 Speaker 1: not just that we hate being sad, it's almost like 237 00:12:01,876 --> 00:12:04,836 Speaker 1: we're afraid of it. But other Helen Russell says that 238 00:12:04,876 --> 00:12:08,276 Speaker 1: our phobia of sadness is pretty backwards, so much so 239 00:12:08,556 --> 00:12:11,956 Speaker 1: that at sometimes times astonishes her. I find this absolutely 240 00:12:11,956 --> 00:12:14,836 Speaker 1: fascinating is I think it all goes back to childhood. 241 00:12:15,156 --> 00:12:17,876 Speaker 1: When we're scared growing up, we're often told there's nothing 242 00:12:17,876 --> 00:12:20,316 Speaker 1: to be afraid of, or when we hurt ourselves, we're 243 00:12:20,316 --> 00:12:22,796 Speaker 1: told to be brave, or we're told don't cry, and 244 00:12:22,916 --> 00:12:26,676 Speaker 1: we are educated out of our emotions. Many kids, one 245 00:12:26,676 --> 00:12:29,596 Speaker 1: of the first things they'll taste after milk is some 246 00:12:29,676 --> 00:12:32,716 Speaker 1: sort of pain killer, some sort of pain relief, and 247 00:12:33,116 --> 00:12:37,076 Speaker 1: often that's prescribed ahead of vaccinations, for example, as a 248 00:12:37,116 --> 00:12:40,196 Speaker 1: prophylactic as this idea of just in case. So the 249 00:12:40,236 --> 00:12:43,316 Speaker 1: idea that you should never experience or tolerate pain if 250 00:12:43,356 --> 00:12:47,716 Speaker 1: you can avoid it starts from zero, and it means 251 00:12:47,756 --> 00:12:50,756 Speaker 1: that we don't build up that resilience, we don't learn 252 00:12:50,836 --> 00:12:54,596 Speaker 1: to tolerate that discomfort and that pain and those difficult 253 00:12:54,796 --> 00:12:57,476 Speaker 1: parts of life. And this plays out in adulthood where 254 00:12:57,556 --> 00:13:00,396 Speaker 1: many of us really struggle to have difficult conversations, something 255 00:13:00,436 --> 00:13:02,756 Speaker 1: we've had to have more of in the last eighteen months, 256 00:13:03,316 --> 00:13:07,036 Speaker 1: and I think that's really problematic. There's also something to 257 00:13:07,076 --> 00:13:09,436 Speaker 1: do with the way children are raised in term of 258 00:13:09,676 --> 00:13:13,716 Speaker 1: risk and freedom to rome, for example, and freedom in general, 259 00:13:13,996 --> 00:13:17,596 Speaker 1: where you see that compared to the nineteen seventies. Children 260 00:13:17,636 --> 00:13:20,036 Speaker 1: are not allowed to run wild in a forest and 261 00:13:20,276 --> 00:13:23,036 Speaker 1: climate tree and fall down and hurt themselves. We are 262 00:13:23,116 --> 00:13:25,676 Speaker 1: much more fearful of strangers. We're much more fearful of 263 00:13:25,756 --> 00:13:28,716 Speaker 1: letting our children roam free, and this can have a 264 00:13:28,756 --> 00:13:32,036 Speaker 1: detrimental effect as well. Studies from all Whose University in 265 00:13:32,036 --> 00:13:35,156 Speaker 1: Denmark and from Norway show that if we let children 266 00:13:35,156 --> 00:13:38,236 Speaker 1: indulge in risky play or play in nature and not 267 00:13:38,636 --> 00:13:40,876 Speaker 1: talking juggling knives, although they pretty much do that with 268 00:13:40,916 --> 00:13:43,316 Speaker 1: the vikings, but we're talking like climate tree, fall down, 269 00:13:43,436 --> 00:13:46,836 Speaker 1: cut your knee. That's really helpful in terms of building 270 00:13:46,996 --> 00:13:52,276 Speaker 1: resilience and reducing psychiatric problems in later life. And it's 271 00:13:52,316 --> 00:13:57,196 Speaker 1: something that is sort of minimized, does not really taken seriously. So, 272 00:13:57,636 --> 00:14:00,236 Speaker 1: you know, the idea of the mollycoddling of the American mind. 273 00:14:00,316 --> 00:14:03,516 Speaker 1: We see that in action in every playground around the 274 00:14:03,596 --> 00:14:05,716 Speaker 1: US and in the UK right now. Yeah, And so 275 00:14:05,836 --> 00:14:07,756 Speaker 1: one of the issues is that we're a phobic about 276 00:14:07,756 --> 00:14:09,556 Speaker 1: being sad, but another one is that we kind of 277 00:14:09,556 --> 00:14:12,156 Speaker 1: feel guilty about it. There's this idea that we're supposed 278 00:14:12,196 --> 00:14:14,476 Speaker 1: to be able to fix sadness. I think it ties 279 00:14:14,516 --> 00:14:16,236 Speaker 1: into what you were just saying about the fact that 280 00:14:16,236 --> 00:14:19,396 Speaker 1: we start medicating things really early on. But I guess 281 00:14:19,396 --> 00:14:21,236 Speaker 1: in lots of parts of our lives there's just this 282 00:14:21,316 --> 00:14:23,796 Speaker 1: idea that if something feels bad, you just fix it. 283 00:14:24,156 --> 00:14:27,516 Speaker 1: But that kind of doesn't work with sadness. You've argued, Yeah, 284 00:14:27,556 --> 00:14:29,116 Speaker 1: I mean you sort of have to sit with it. 285 00:14:29,396 --> 00:14:31,836 Speaker 1: And I guess there's no business case in that. It said, 286 00:14:31,876 --> 00:14:33,796 Speaker 1: there's no one's going to make money from that. There's 287 00:14:33,836 --> 00:14:37,836 Speaker 1: no commercial gain in that. It's purely you're just going 288 00:14:37,836 --> 00:14:39,556 Speaker 1: to have to sit with it for a while. And 289 00:14:39,596 --> 00:14:42,116 Speaker 1: I'm not talking long term things where you are feeling 290 00:14:42,316 --> 00:14:45,596 Speaker 1: really low and you are meeting criteria for depression. I'm 291 00:14:45,636 --> 00:14:48,836 Speaker 1: talking normal sadness. It is uncomfortable and we do have 292 00:14:48,876 --> 00:14:50,476 Speaker 1: to sit with it. But as you say, there are 293 00:14:50,556 --> 00:14:53,476 Speaker 1: things that we can do that will help. So music. 294 00:14:53,716 --> 00:14:56,516 Speaker 1: We know that music has been shown to reduce stress 295 00:14:56,556 --> 00:14:59,076 Speaker 1: and depression and anxiety, but actually music can be a 296 00:14:59,076 --> 00:15:01,596 Speaker 1: really good companion in our sadness. So we're not trying 297 00:15:01,596 --> 00:15:04,756 Speaker 1: to minimize that sadness or ignore it or numb it 298 00:15:04,796 --> 00:15:07,716 Speaker 1: out or push it away, but we can feel less alone. 299 00:15:07,996 --> 00:15:10,236 Speaker 1: And I think the same is true with books as well. 300 00:15:10,436 --> 00:15:12,916 Speaker 1: You have that empathy. You're reading about a character that's 301 00:15:12,916 --> 00:15:16,116 Speaker 1: going through something perhaps similar or perhaps completely different, but 302 00:15:16,156 --> 00:15:19,756 Speaker 1: you're also putting yourselves in their shoes and feeling their sadness. 303 00:15:20,196 --> 00:15:22,556 Speaker 1: So that can be a really helpful thing. When we're 304 00:15:22,556 --> 00:15:25,036 Speaker 1: feeling sad, we're not pushing it away, but we're going 305 00:15:25,076 --> 00:15:28,796 Speaker 1: with it with a companion of sorts. I love that idea. 306 00:15:28,916 --> 00:15:31,036 Speaker 1: So a third thing that can sometimes happen when we're 307 00:15:31,036 --> 00:15:35,396 Speaker 1: feeling sad is that we experience sadness and we feel ashamed. 308 00:15:35,596 --> 00:15:38,516 Speaker 1: We tend to view sadness like we're a total failure 309 00:15:38,916 --> 00:15:42,716 Speaker 1: and this was something that you experienced after your fertility treatments. 310 00:15:42,756 --> 00:15:44,716 Speaker 1: Correct that there's this idea it's not just kind of 311 00:15:44,756 --> 00:15:47,156 Speaker 1: shameful in this odd way to go through that, but 312 00:15:47,196 --> 00:15:49,876 Speaker 1: it's also shameful to be sad about it. Yes, I 313 00:15:49,916 --> 00:15:52,076 Speaker 1: mean to be fair, I was also having my legs 314 00:15:52,076 --> 00:15:54,836 Speaker 1: in stirrups naked from the waist down about three times 315 00:15:54,876 --> 00:15:57,676 Speaker 1: a week for fertility treatments. And so shame is such 316 00:15:57,676 --> 00:16:00,996 Speaker 1: an interesting one because it makes sense. Shame has a 317 00:16:01,076 --> 00:16:04,916 Speaker 1: purpose in terms of encouraging us not to do things 318 00:16:04,916 --> 00:16:07,916 Speaker 1: that will mean we are ostracized from the group. It's 319 00:16:07,916 --> 00:16:10,556 Speaker 1: a social thing. I have been socialized not to be 320 00:16:10,636 --> 00:16:12,556 Speaker 1: naked from the waist down with my legs in the air. 321 00:16:12,756 --> 00:16:15,476 Speaker 1: That has helped me get through many things in life. Unfortunately, 322 00:16:15,556 --> 00:16:17,476 Speaker 1: I had to go through it at that point to 323 00:16:17,516 --> 00:16:19,556 Speaker 1: have the babies, which society was also telling me I 324 00:16:19,556 --> 00:16:21,556 Speaker 1: should have. So I felt shame about that as well. 325 00:16:21,596 --> 00:16:24,356 Speaker 1: But it's a really difficult one. And then, as you say, 326 00:16:24,476 --> 00:16:28,836 Speaker 1: shame about feeling our emotions, I think is really problematic. 327 00:16:29,116 --> 00:16:32,036 Speaker 1: I spoke to lots of people who'd experienced tough things 328 00:16:32,036 --> 00:16:33,796 Speaker 1: in their lives, and I spoke to a woman who 329 00:16:33,796 --> 00:16:37,356 Speaker 1: had lost a child, and she described telling someone she 330 00:16:37,396 --> 00:16:40,276 Speaker 1: hadn't seen since she'd lost her baby and having to 331 00:16:40,276 --> 00:16:43,596 Speaker 1: almost support this woman, this sort of well meaning woman 332 00:16:43,636 --> 00:16:46,716 Speaker 1: who was just so sad to hear about what had happened, 333 00:16:47,076 --> 00:16:50,516 Speaker 1: but then she became embarrassed, and so having to apologize 334 00:16:50,796 --> 00:16:52,996 Speaker 1: for feeling sad and feel a sort of shame around 335 00:16:53,036 --> 00:16:56,956 Speaker 1: it just seems an extra burden at the very time 336 00:16:56,996 --> 00:17:00,396 Speaker 1: when we really don't need anything else to be dealing with. So, yeah, 337 00:17:00,476 --> 00:17:03,716 Speaker 1: shaking off a shame and not apologizing for our sadness 338 00:17:03,996 --> 00:17:06,036 Speaker 1: by all means apologize if you've done something wrong, but 339 00:17:06,116 --> 00:17:09,436 Speaker 1: no one should apologize for feeling So I think something 340 00:17:09,516 --> 00:17:11,996 Speaker 1: we can all be aware of and watching ourselves and 341 00:17:12,036 --> 00:17:14,636 Speaker 1: other people as well. And so these are the kinds 342 00:17:14,676 --> 00:17:17,396 Speaker 1: of ways we get sadness wrong. You know. We feel guilty, 343 00:17:17,596 --> 00:17:20,916 Speaker 1: we feel ashamed, we're scared of it. But you've argued 344 00:17:20,916 --> 00:17:23,676 Speaker 1: that with the right strategies we really can be sad better. 345 00:17:23,876 --> 00:17:25,956 Speaker 1: I wanted you to share the story of your mom 346 00:17:25,956 --> 00:17:27,796 Speaker 1: that you shared in the book the idea of the 347 00:17:27,836 --> 00:17:30,836 Speaker 1: washing machine breaking, for what it tells us about social 348 00:17:30,876 --> 00:17:34,116 Speaker 1: connection and how that can help us be sad better. Yes, 349 00:17:34,236 --> 00:17:37,396 Speaker 1: so my mum was feeling very alone. She had lost 350 00:17:37,396 --> 00:17:39,916 Speaker 1: her daughter, she had lost her husband, and there was 351 00:17:39,956 --> 00:17:43,316 Speaker 1: almost this idea that her grief was contagious, so the 352 00:17:43,356 --> 00:17:45,716 Speaker 1: other mums would barely speak to her, and she just 353 00:17:45,756 --> 00:17:48,636 Speaker 1: felt completely alone, stuck with me with a little three 354 00:17:48,716 --> 00:17:51,916 Speaker 1: year old at home. And she told me years later, 355 00:17:52,556 --> 00:17:54,556 Speaker 1: in a very matter of fact way, well, of course, 356 00:17:54,556 --> 00:17:56,796 Speaker 1: that's why I ended up talking to the whirlpool man, 357 00:17:57,236 --> 00:17:59,956 Speaker 1: and I've seeing it. Sorry, what was that, she said, Oh, 358 00:18:00,076 --> 00:18:02,196 Speaker 1: you know the whirlpool man. I had no idea what 359 00:18:02,276 --> 00:18:04,196 Speaker 1: she was talking about. And she said, well, after your 360 00:18:04,196 --> 00:18:06,996 Speaker 1: sister died, I didn't know who I could talk to. 361 00:18:07,116 --> 00:18:09,876 Speaker 1: Nobody wanted to talk about sad things. I was expected 362 00:18:09,956 --> 00:18:12,836 Speaker 1: to just carry on. And so at the time she 363 00:18:12,876 --> 00:18:15,876 Speaker 1: had a service contract with the washing machine and it 364 00:18:16,036 --> 00:18:18,316 Speaker 1: broke down and the guy had come to fix it. 365 00:18:18,356 --> 00:18:21,556 Speaker 1: This one service guy had come whilst she had been 366 00:18:21,556 --> 00:18:24,636 Speaker 1: pregnant with my sister, when my sister had been tiny. 367 00:18:24,676 --> 00:18:26,636 Speaker 1: He'd had to hold her while she made a cup 368 00:18:26,636 --> 00:18:29,156 Speaker 1: of tea or popped to the bathroom or something. And 369 00:18:29,796 --> 00:18:32,636 Speaker 1: she just felt she needed to speak to somebody who 370 00:18:32,676 --> 00:18:36,156 Speaker 1: had met her, who had known her, however fleetingly, and 371 00:18:36,236 --> 00:18:39,756 Speaker 1: so she got a stick and broke the washing machine 372 00:18:39,956 --> 00:18:42,196 Speaker 1: to get him back. So she really gave that drum 373 00:18:42,236 --> 00:18:44,396 Speaker 1: a good poke to just get him back there and 374 00:18:44,476 --> 00:18:47,036 Speaker 1: talk to him. And to his credit, bless him, he did. 375 00:18:47,156 --> 00:18:49,476 Speaker 1: He listened to her and listened to her pain and 376 00:18:49,636 --> 00:18:51,756 Speaker 1: drank tea with her. And I think she did it 377 00:18:51,876 --> 00:18:54,916 Speaker 1: a couple more times as well, and the washing machine 378 00:18:54,996 --> 00:18:57,236 Speaker 1: worked in the end. But also she was able to 379 00:18:57,236 --> 00:19:00,076 Speaker 1: have someone to talk to, which part of me my 380 00:19:00,116 --> 00:19:03,476 Speaker 1: heart breaks it that was all she had. But also 381 00:19:03,756 --> 00:19:07,316 Speaker 1: the kindness of strangers, I mean just warms my heart 382 00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:09,636 Speaker 1: this idea that this guy with no connection to our 383 00:19:09,676 --> 00:19:12,596 Speaker 1: family just really helped my mom when she was at 384 00:19:12,596 --> 00:19:15,876 Speaker 1: her lowest EBB. I will be forever grateful to him. 385 00:19:16,036 --> 00:19:17,836 Speaker 1: And I think we all know someone like that. We 386 00:19:17,876 --> 00:19:20,756 Speaker 1: all have a whirlpool man of one kind or another, 387 00:19:20,796 --> 00:19:23,876 Speaker 1: someone a stranger, kind person who has helped us when 388 00:19:23,876 --> 00:19:26,876 Speaker 1: we're feeling at our most low. And once I'd heard 389 00:19:26,916 --> 00:19:29,796 Speaker 1: this from my mom, I started speaking to psychologists about it, 390 00:19:29,836 --> 00:19:32,196 Speaker 1: and they shared as well that especially with the lack 391 00:19:32,236 --> 00:19:35,316 Speaker 1: of access to talking therapy for so many people, that 392 00:19:35,436 --> 00:19:38,796 Speaker 1: really the important thing is speaking to somebody who will listen. 393 00:19:38,956 --> 00:19:41,556 Speaker 1: They don't have to be a professional. It's speaking to 394 00:19:41,596 --> 00:19:45,716 Speaker 1: somebody who will listen without interruption, without judgment. So for me, 395 00:19:45,836 --> 00:19:48,996 Speaker 1: that really cemented the idea of everybody trying to get 396 00:19:48,996 --> 00:19:51,316 Speaker 1: a buddy, and we haven't got a support network perhaps 397 00:19:51,356 --> 00:19:53,876 Speaker 1: where we feel we can talk to family members or friends. 398 00:19:53,956 --> 00:19:56,556 Speaker 1: Just having one person and it may be the kindness 399 00:19:56,556 --> 00:19:59,396 Speaker 1: of strangers. We often tell strangers our secrets, and there's 400 00:19:59,436 --> 00:20:01,876 Speaker 1: lots of research into that it's just the person who's there. 401 00:20:02,156 --> 00:20:05,716 Speaker 1: But having someone we can talk to just feels so important, 402 00:20:05,996 --> 00:20:07,996 Speaker 1: and that VIDs with so much of the research that 403 00:20:08,116 --> 00:20:11,156 Speaker 1: shows the power of social connection from boosting happiness but 404 00:20:11,196 --> 00:20:14,996 Speaker 1: also for helping us overcome negative emotions too. Right, Yeah, 405 00:20:15,036 --> 00:20:18,476 Speaker 1: and the connections. I've been really struck during the pandemic. 406 00:20:18,556 --> 00:20:20,956 Speaker 1: You know, we know that power of these weak connections, 407 00:20:20,996 --> 00:20:24,236 Speaker 1: but how much we miss those when they're gone. It 408 00:20:24,276 --> 00:20:26,676 Speaker 1: takes much more effort, I think, to dial someone up 409 00:20:26,716 --> 00:20:28,676 Speaker 1: on a zoom call than to pass them in the 410 00:20:28,716 --> 00:20:30,636 Speaker 1: street and shoot the breeze for a little bit. So 411 00:20:31,116 --> 00:20:33,476 Speaker 1: I'm really glad that my mom had that and I 412 00:20:33,556 --> 00:20:36,356 Speaker 1: try to encourage more of that in my life and 413 00:20:36,436 --> 00:20:39,276 Speaker 1: the people I care about life. Just having people that 414 00:20:39,316 --> 00:20:42,036 Speaker 1: you see often and that you can connect with. But 415 00:20:42,196 --> 00:20:44,516 Speaker 1: facing up to the guilt, shame, and loneliness that a 416 00:20:44,596 --> 00:20:47,996 Speaker 1: company's sadness is just the first step. When we get 417 00:20:48,036 --> 00:20:50,436 Speaker 1: back from the break, we'll hear more of Helen's simple 418 00:20:50,476 --> 00:20:53,636 Speaker 1: Strategies or how to be sad Better. The Happiness Lab 419 00:20:53,676 --> 00:21:06,156 Speaker 1: will be back in a moment. Author Helen Russell is 420 00:21:06,156 --> 00:21:08,436 Speaker 1: on a mission to make us all be sad better. 421 00:21:09,196 --> 00:21:11,316 Speaker 1: She wants us to start talking about what we're feeling, 422 00:21:11,676 --> 00:21:14,876 Speaker 1: to challenge the guilt, shame, and loneliness that sadness can bring. 423 00:21:15,516 --> 00:21:18,036 Speaker 1: But more than anything, Helen wants us to commit to 424 00:21:18,076 --> 00:21:21,396 Speaker 1: start fighting our sadness. It's a lesson that she learned 425 00:21:21,476 --> 00:21:23,836 Speaker 1: the hard way. Many of the things that we do 426 00:21:23,956 --> 00:21:27,276 Speaker 1: to try and fight sadness are actually ways to avoid feeling, 427 00:21:27,436 --> 00:21:30,756 Speaker 1: and it's a numbing out, which doesn't really help. If 428 00:21:30,796 --> 00:21:34,476 Speaker 1: we attempt to deny or block out a spectrum of 429 00:21:34,476 --> 00:21:37,836 Speaker 1: our emotions, we can dissociate from ourselves, and if we're 430 00:21:37,876 --> 00:21:41,156 Speaker 1: taught that being sad is bad, we dissociate from that feeling. 431 00:21:41,196 --> 00:21:45,036 Speaker 1: And there's the strong links between dissociation and addiction because 432 00:21:45,076 --> 00:21:48,956 Speaker 1: we try to anesetize ourselves or numb out our feelings. 433 00:21:48,996 --> 00:21:52,796 Speaker 1: So for me as a teenager, it was business in school, 434 00:21:52,836 --> 00:21:55,516 Speaker 1: and then it was alcohol, and then it was not 435 00:21:55,596 --> 00:21:58,076 Speaker 1: eating enough, and then it was exercising too much. You know, 436 00:21:58,276 --> 00:22:01,196 Speaker 1: I was dogged in my determination to self destruct because 437 00:22:01,196 --> 00:22:04,036 Speaker 1: it was just this sort of I cannot stop, because 438 00:22:04,036 --> 00:22:06,716 Speaker 1: if you keep yourself busy to avoid pain, the moment 439 00:22:06,836 --> 00:22:09,716 Speaker 1: you stop, the sadness will come flooding back. And I 440 00:22:09,756 --> 00:22:12,356 Speaker 1: did not let that happen. But it doesn't go anywhere, 441 00:22:12,476 --> 00:22:14,556 Speaker 1: So it builds and it will peek through when you're 442 00:22:14,556 --> 00:22:17,276 Speaker 1: at least expecting it. So, yes, my teenage years and 443 00:22:17,356 --> 00:22:19,636 Speaker 1: my twenties are somewhat of a blur. And I was 444 00:22:19,676 --> 00:22:22,956 Speaker 1: the journalist at the Swan Song. I'd say of the daytime, 445 00:22:23,036 --> 00:22:26,316 Speaker 1: drinking big long lunches, a lot of money and publishing. 446 00:22:26,516 --> 00:22:28,516 Speaker 1: It's not like that anymore. But yeah, I would go 447 00:22:28,516 --> 00:22:31,676 Speaker 1: on press trips and it would just be partying hard, 448 00:22:32,076 --> 00:22:35,356 Speaker 1: which I'm a small woman, and it did not go 449 00:22:35,436 --> 00:22:37,836 Speaker 1: well and I was not able to cope with that 450 00:22:37,956 --> 00:22:41,796 Speaker 1: at all. Even sometimes coping strategies that seem good on 451 00:22:41,836 --> 00:22:44,516 Speaker 1: the surface are really bad. You know, you mentioned this 452 00:22:44,596 --> 00:22:46,956 Speaker 1: with business in school. You know, this is one that 453 00:22:47,036 --> 00:22:49,836 Speaker 1: I definitely have. I think, you know, the times that 454 00:22:49,876 --> 00:22:53,276 Speaker 1: I'm experiencing the most sadness, the most other negative emotions 455 00:22:53,276 --> 00:22:56,396 Speaker 1: tend to be the time that I become like most workaholic, 456 00:22:56,516 --> 00:22:59,396 Speaker 1: Like I'm just pouring my energy into like work, work, work. 457 00:22:59,516 --> 00:23:03,316 Speaker 1: But you know, even there is problematic, right yeah, which 458 00:23:03,396 --> 00:23:06,116 Speaker 1: is strange because we are often rewarded for it. Right. 459 00:23:06,276 --> 00:23:10,436 Speaker 1: Rest is not valued in our society activity. It's prized 460 00:23:10,476 --> 00:23:14,356 Speaker 1: over the inactivity. But actually we need rest is the 461 00:23:14,396 --> 00:23:17,716 Speaker 1: time that we restore ourselves to factory settings, and I 462 00:23:17,756 --> 00:23:20,916 Speaker 1: think we don't measure productivity by how many acres we 463 00:23:20,956 --> 00:23:23,636 Speaker 1: harvest anymore, so the amount of time we spend working 464 00:23:23,676 --> 00:23:27,356 Speaker 1: becomes a proxy. And I grew up in the nineteen 465 00:23:27,396 --> 00:23:29,596 Speaker 1: eighties and nineties, you know, under Margaret Factory. It was 466 00:23:29,596 --> 00:23:31,796 Speaker 1: all sort of aim higher and Gordon Gecko and Greed 467 00:23:31,836 --> 00:23:34,636 Speaker 1: it's good and this idea of aiming higher and doing 468 00:23:34,676 --> 00:23:37,676 Speaker 1: more all the time, and the cult of presenteeism, which 469 00:23:37,916 --> 00:23:39,796 Speaker 1: we talk about in a work context. But yeah, I 470 00:23:39,796 --> 00:23:43,076 Speaker 1: mean I've been probably doing that since the age of thirteen, 471 00:23:43,236 --> 00:23:46,356 Speaker 1: just you know, every extracurricular activity I could sign up for, 472 00:23:46,956 --> 00:23:50,996 Speaker 1: and the idea of perfectionism was almost the one acceptable 473 00:23:51,116 --> 00:23:53,156 Speaker 1: flaw that you could talk about on your CV or 474 00:23:53,196 --> 00:23:55,276 Speaker 1: in a job interview. And any of us who grew 475 00:23:55,316 --> 00:23:58,396 Speaker 1: up with that as a loadstar, it's really problematic and 476 00:23:58,436 --> 00:24:03,196 Speaker 1: it's hard to shake off. And I certainly really struggled 477 00:24:03,236 --> 00:24:05,476 Speaker 1: with that, this idea if I am a good girl, 478 00:24:05,516 --> 00:24:08,036 Speaker 1: if I am perfect, then things will start going my way. 479 00:24:08,076 --> 00:24:10,596 Speaker 1: Then I can be happy. But it doesn't work like that, 480 00:24:10,836 --> 00:24:17,236 Speaker 1: and it Studies now show that perfectionism leads to anxiety, depression, OCD, PTSD, insomnia, indigestion. 481 00:24:17,596 --> 00:24:19,676 Speaker 1: I think even early death so you know, really not 482 00:24:19,716 --> 00:24:22,716 Speaker 1: a good thing. But this will come to me latterly. 483 00:24:22,836 --> 00:24:24,836 Speaker 1: So yeah, I've learned some of these lessons the hard way, 484 00:24:24,996 --> 00:24:27,516 Speaker 1: for sure. And another lesson I think you talked about 485 00:24:27,556 --> 00:24:29,436 Speaker 1: learning in the hard way was the third way that 486 00:24:29,476 --> 00:24:31,316 Speaker 1: we can be sad better, which is that we have 487 00:24:31,396 --> 00:24:34,076 Speaker 1: to fight this shame part. You've argued that we can 488 00:24:34,076 --> 00:24:36,796 Speaker 1: do that by being a little bit more vulnerable. It's 489 00:24:36,836 --> 00:24:39,996 Speaker 1: really interesting the moments when I have been most vulnerable 490 00:24:40,076 --> 00:24:43,676 Speaker 1: and been most honest about how I'm feeling are the 491 00:24:43,756 --> 00:24:48,316 Speaker 1: moments of deepest and bureus connection with the people who 492 00:24:48,316 --> 00:24:50,076 Speaker 1: are close to me in my life and then with 493 00:24:50,156 --> 00:24:53,716 Speaker 1: the people I interact with for work. So I hadn't 494 00:24:53,756 --> 00:24:57,396 Speaker 1: really talked about experiencing depression much before, and then I 495 00:24:57,436 --> 00:24:59,876 Speaker 1: did a TED talk in two nineteen and I just 496 00:25:00,036 --> 00:25:03,476 Speaker 1: said it then, And it was really interesting that we 497 00:25:03,596 --> 00:25:06,596 Speaker 1: like to tell ourselves that there isn't a stigma around bereavement, 498 00:25:06,636 --> 00:25:09,876 Speaker 1: around depression, around all of these things, but still there's 499 00:25:09,996 --> 00:25:12,956 Speaker 1: there's so much resistance, and you know, it's the one 500 00:25:12,956 --> 00:25:14,956 Speaker 1: in form many of us are going to experience mental 501 00:25:14,996 --> 00:25:17,756 Speaker 1: health problems. It doesn't mean that we are less good 502 00:25:17,756 --> 00:25:20,116 Speaker 1: at our job, If anything, it means that I get it. 503 00:25:20,276 --> 00:25:22,036 Speaker 1: I know what works what doesn't, I know what it 504 00:25:22,076 --> 00:25:26,756 Speaker 1: feels like. So being vulnerable and owning who we are 505 00:25:27,036 --> 00:25:29,636 Speaker 1: is really helpful. We also need to fight this idea 506 00:25:29,716 --> 00:25:32,676 Speaker 1: that we should be apologizing for feeling sad. You saw 507 00:25:32,716 --> 00:25:34,476 Speaker 1: this with a friend at work in a kind of 508 00:25:34,516 --> 00:25:36,996 Speaker 1: really sad way, right, Yeah, I mean people in my 509 00:25:37,076 --> 00:25:40,316 Speaker 1: team would apologize. I had one guy who he was 510 00:25:40,356 --> 00:25:41,756 Speaker 1: on a bike and he got run down by a 511 00:25:41,756 --> 00:25:44,116 Speaker 1: car and his first words were, I'm sorry, you just 512 00:25:44,156 --> 00:25:46,716 Speaker 1: got hit by a car. And then another colleague, her 513 00:25:46,756 --> 00:25:50,316 Speaker 1: boyfriend was diagnosed with cancer and she was sort of 514 00:25:50,356 --> 00:25:54,276 Speaker 1: apologized and I said, no, no, you go home, go 515 00:25:54,356 --> 00:25:56,476 Speaker 1: be with him. And there was this idea of it, 516 00:25:56,996 --> 00:25:59,556 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry about this, and it becomes a 517 00:25:59,636 --> 00:26:02,156 Speaker 1: verbal tick. But also I think we mean it. Often 518 00:26:02,316 --> 00:26:05,796 Speaker 1: we are saying sorry for our emotion, for letting that awkward, 519 00:26:05,876 --> 00:26:08,716 Speaker 1: leaky emotion come out of us when we feel we 520 00:26:08,756 --> 00:26:11,956 Speaker 1: are sped to be this glossy, hard shell on the outside. 521 00:26:11,996 --> 00:26:14,996 Speaker 1: So I think, yeah, we have to not apologize for feeling. 522 00:26:14,996 --> 00:26:18,076 Speaker 1: We apologize if we've done something wrong, but not for feeling. 523 00:26:18,396 --> 00:26:20,596 Speaker 1: And then, in addition to sort of making sure we're 524 00:26:20,636 --> 00:26:23,756 Speaker 1: not kind of letting our shame week into all these apologies. 525 00:26:24,236 --> 00:26:26,756 Speaker 1: You've also argued that we need to kind of do 526 00:26:26,796 --> 00:26:29,276 Speaker 1: some work inside our own head. You've argued, we need 527 00:26:29,316 --> 00:26:32,276 Speaker 1: to shut off what I think you lovingly call shit FM, 528 00:26:32,636 --> 00:26:37,436 Speaker 1: and what is your shit FM? Oh so, my friend 529 00:26:37,516 --> 00:26:40,596 Speaker 1: Jill and I she became my whirlpool man, somebody I 530 00:26:40,636 --> 00:26:43,316 Speaker 1: was able to rely on as a regular body in 531 00:26:43,316 --> 00:26:45,836 Speaker 1: the room who would listen without interruption, and I would 532 00:26:45,876 --> 00:26:48,156 Speaker 1: do the same for her. But shit FM is what 533 00:26:48,196 --> 00:26:51,276 Speaker 1: we took to describing that niggling voice. It's in your 534 00:26:51,276 --> 00:26:53,716 Speaker 1: head that sometimes for a couple of days will be 535 00:26:53,796 --> 00:26:56,596 Speaker 1: sort of tuned into a frequency that tells you, oh, 536 00:26:56,636 --> 00:26:58,636 Speaker 1: things aren't going so well, or you're not really doing 537 00:26:58,636 --> 00:27:00,836 Speaker 1: a good job there, or oh you really mess that up? 538 00:27:00,876 --> 00:27:04,236 Speaker 1: What an idiot? And if shit FM's playing for more 539 00:27:04,236 --> 00:27:06,236 Speaker 1: than a couple of days, then it's time to take action, 540 00:27:06,676 --> 00:27:09,516 Speaker 1: and we will send a message and it'll be even 541 00:27:09,596 --> 00:27:11,796 Speaker 1: just coffee emoji, and then you know that there's going 542 00:27:11,836 --> 00:27:14,156 Speaker 1: to be a summit and there will be a meeting 543 00:27:14,196 --> 00:27:16,676 Speaker 1: of minds and we will talk and not try and 544 00:27:16,716 --> 00:27:19,756 Speaker 1: fix anything, but just listen. We all have a version 545 00:27:19,796 --> 00:27:22,316 Speaker 1: of shit FM in our heads. No matter what it 546 00:27:22,396 --> 00:27:25,476 Speaker 1: is that's your particular worry or the things that niggle you, 547 00:27:25,716 --> 00:27:28,756 Speaker 1: there will be something. And I think if we are 548 00:27:28,796 --> 00:27:31,276 Speaker 1: aware of that that it's not us, Our feelings are 549 00:27:31,276 --> 00:27:34,276 Speaker 1: not us. It's just shit FM that sometimes comes on. 550 00:27:34,476 --> 00:27:36,836 Speaker 1: And so the final thing that you've mentioned can be 551 00:27:36,876 --> 00:27:40,276 Speaker 1: really powerful from being sad better is this idea of acceptance. 552 00:27:40,436 --> 00:27:43,396 Speaker 1: What is acceptance and why is it so powerful? I 553 00:27:43,436 --> 00:27:47,316 Speaker 1: think acceptance is really the fundamental idea that it's going 554 00:27:47,356 --> 00:27:50,676 Speaker 1: to be a part of life. We've almost changed our 555 00:27:50,796 --> 00:27:54,716 Speaker 1: definition of happiness. I spoke to the psychologists recently about 556 00:27:54,916 --> 00:27:58,636 Speaker 1: differences between positive psychology and toxic positivity. But I think 557 00:27:58,916 --> 00:28:02,356 Speaker 1: in the popular consciousness and perhaps in their media, this 558 00:28:02,476 --> 00:28:04,556 Speaker 1: sort of idea of good vibes only, or it is 559 00:28:04,556 --> 00:28:06,636 Speaker 1: all going to be okay, and sometimes it won't. And 560 00:28:07,236 --> 00:28:08,516 Speaker 1: I feel like there are a lot of self help 561 00:28:08,556 --> 00:28:11,996 Speaker 1: books about you just manifest this future where everything's okay, 562 00:28:11,996 --> 00:28:13,836 Speaker 1: and then if it doesn't work out, that's probably your 563 00:28:13,836 --> 00:28:16,356 Speaker 1: fault and you probably didn't manifest it hard enough. I 564 00:28:16,396 --> 00:28:20,596 Speaker 1: think that's just so problematic and makes us feel shame again, 565 00:28:20,636 --> 00:28:23,036 Speaker 1: as though maybe we have done something wrong, and there's 566 00:28:23,076 --> 00:28:26,916 Speaker 1: so much structural and institutional inequality. I like the old 567 00:28:26,956 --> 00:28:31,316 Speaker 1: Aristotle idea about a good life requiring us to also 568 00:28:31,356 --> 00:28:33,196 Speaker 1: have a big dose of good luck. One of the 569 00:28:33,236 --> 00:28:34,916 Speaker 1: seven things he thought we needed to have a good 570 00:28:34,956 --> 00:28:37,996 Speaker 1: life was good luck, because even the best life can 571 00:28:38,036 --> 00:28:41,916 Speaker 1: be rendered unhappy by a tragedy and that's not our fault. 572 00:28:42,316 --> 00:28:44,516 Speaker 1: And I think that gets lost a lot, so that 573 00:28:44,556 --> 00:28:48,756 Speaker 1: when bad things happen, it's not necessarily our fault and 574 00:28:48,796 --> 00:28:50,876 Speaker 1: we have to accept them. And there may not be 575 00:28:50,916 --> 00:28:53,716 Speaker 1: a plan, you know, I was raised in a religious home. 576 00:28:53,756 --> 00:28:56,476 Speaker 1: I was raised Catholic, and I think for many of 577 00:28:56,556 --> 00:28:58,516 Speaker 1: us there is this idea of it's God's plan or 578 00:28:58,556 --> 00:29:01,036 Speaker 1: it's part of a plan or the universe or manifesting 579 00:29:01,116 --> 00:29:04,276 Speaker 1: or whatever it may be for you and your belief system. 580 00:29:04,676 --> 00:29:08,796 Speaker 1: I think acceptance that sometimes sad things happen and that 581 00:29:08,956 --> 00:29:12,636 Speaker 1: is just really sad is helpful and it doesn't make 582 00:29:12,716 --> 00:29:15,636 Speaker 1: us any lesser. Any tips for achieving that kind of 583 00:29:15,676 --> 00:29:17,996 Speaker 1: acceptance because one of the things I love about your 584 00:29:17,996 --> 00:29:20,596 Speaker 1: book is that you go through so many sad things, 585 00:29:20,596 --> 00:29:23,316 Speaker 1: from your sister's death, to your parents divorced, to you know, 586 00:29:23,316 --> 00:29:26,156 Speaker 1: the long infertility you've faced, but you've kind of come 587 00:29:26,156 --> 00:29:29,156 Speaker 1: out on the other side, accepting that bad things are okay. 588 00:29:29,156 --> 00:29:31,996 Speaker 1: I can feel sadness and it won't destroy me. I 589 00:29:32,036 --> 00:29:34,356 Speaker 1: mean excessive drinking. That's not really going to help you 590 00:29:34,396 --> 00:29:37,196 Speaker 1: on your way. I'll save you the trouble there. But yeah, 591 00:29:37,236 --> 00:29:40,436 Speaker 1: I think for me, the perspective part was a big help, 592 00:29:40,796 --> 00:29:44,476 Speaker 1: and that came in terms of thinking geographically and understanding 593 00:29:44,516 --> 00:29:48,196 Speaker 1: more about sadness around the world and the different cultural approaches, 594 00:29:48,236 --> 00:29:51,436 Speaker 1: and that the things that we think are a product 595 00:29:51,476 --> 00:29:53,756 Speaker 1: of our education and the way we have been socialized, 596 00:29:53,796 --> 00:29:55,476 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that they are the be all and 597 00:29:55,636 --> 00:29:58,076 Speaker 1: end all. And then also a historical perspective I found 598 00:29:58,116 --> 00:30:00,316 Speaker 1: really helpful. At one point I was laid up on 599 00:30:00,356 --> 00:30:02,916 Speaker 1: bedrest and I had to real deep dive into the 600 00:30:02,956 --> 00:30:05,596 Speaker 1: history of sadness and the history of our emotions, which 601 00:30:05,636 --> 00:30:07,796 Speaker 1: is really interesting as well, and you realize actually it's 602 00:30:07,796 --> 00:30:12,076 Speaker 1: relatively recent ideas about happiness. And then for me, the 603 00:30:12,236 --> 00:30:15,236 Speaker 1: reading and taking my culture vitamins and trying to just 604 00:30:15,596 --> 00:30:19,036 Speaker 1: use these tools for emotional arousals. So if I feel 605 00:30:19,036 --> 00:30:20,876 Speaker 1: on the verge of crying, then I will watch a 606 00:30:20,876 --> 00:30:22,836 Speaker 1: film that will push me over the edge or listen 607 00:30:22,836 --> 00:30:24,556 Speaker 1: to the piece of music that will feel like a 608 00:30:24,636 --> 00:30:27,956 Speaker 1: companion in my sadness. And even when I felt like 609 00:30:27,996 --> 00:30:29,596 Speaker 1: I was doing all the right things, when I was 610 00:30:29,636 --> 00:30:32,516 Speaker 1: still working too hard, even though I was exercising and 611 00:30:32,516 --> 00:30:34,636 Speaker 1: I was eating well and I was trying to talk 612 00:30:34,636 --> 00:30:37,036 Speaker 1: about my feelings. If I was working too hard, then 613 00:30:37,076 --> 00:30:39,396 Speaker 1: that was out of whack as well. This balance, which 614 00:30:39,436 --> 00:30:42,276 Speaker 1: is not very exciting, but balance is important. And then 615 00:30:42,316 --> 00:30:44,556 Speaker 1: I think the final piece of the jigsaw for me 616 00:30:44,796 --> 00:30:46,996 Speaker 1: was doing something for someone else, which it feels like 617 00:30:47,076 --> 00:30:49,596 Speaker 1: sort of an old fashioned idea of the do gooder. 618 00:30:50,036 --> 00:30:52,596 Speaker 1: And you know in the Simpsons ned Flanders, no one 619 00:30:52,596 --> 00:30:54,116 Speaker 1: wants to be ned Flanders. No one wants to be 620 00:30:54,196 --> 00:30:57,276 Speaker 1: the do gooder. But actually it's really important. We see 621 00:30:57,316 --> 00:30:59,876 Speaker 1: the science behind things like warm blow giving or help 622 00:30:59,916 --> 00:31:02,396 Speaker 1: us high. It makes us feel better. We should do 623 00:31:02,476 --> 00:31:04,316 Speaker 1: things for other people because it's the right thing to do, 624 00:31:04,356 --> 00:31:06,756 Speaker 1: but also it will make us feel better. And if 625 00:31:06,796 --> 00:31:10,156 Speaker 1: we are sad and we just do ourselves, the chances 626 00:31:10,156 --> 00:31:12,676 Speaker 1: are will still be sad. So for me, a big 627 00:31:12,716 --> 00:31:15,276 Speaker 1: part of the piece was trying to work with other 628 00:31:15,316 --> 00:31:18,956 Speaker 1: families who've experienced baby loss, for example, and a lot 629 00:31:18,996 --> 00:31:22,236 Speaker 1: of the people I interviewed in the book, actually through 630 00:31:22,276 --> 00:31:25,556 Speaker 1: the course of their own sadness journey, they found a 631 00:31:25,596 --> 00:31:29,036 Speaker 1: way that was specific to them to find a cause 632 00:31:29,076 --> 00:31:31,436 Speaker 1: that they really cared about and find a way to help. 633 00:31:31,956 --> 00:31:34,676 Speaker 1: And I think that really helps with the acceptance and 634 00:31:34,756 --> 00:31:37,596 Speaker 1: how to be sad well, because we are doing something 635 00:31:38,516 --> 00:31:40,756 Speaker 1: useful with that sadness. Not to say that things always 636 00:31:40,796 --> 00:31:42,996 Speaker 1: happen for a reason, but if you're going to go 637 00:31:43,076 --> 00:31:46,756 Speaker 1: through that suffering of any degree, there's no hierarchy of sadness. 638 00:31:47,116 --> 00:31:50,356 Speaker 1: But whatever it is for you that you then understand it. 639 00:31:50,436 --> 00:31:52,836 Speaker 1: You have that empathy and if you can share that 640 00:31:52,836 --> 00:31:56,596 Speaker 1: with someone or do something useful with that, that feels worthwhile. 641 00:31:56,876 --> 00:31:59,116 Speaker 1: And do you think that through finding sadness a little 642 00:31:59,116 --> 00:32:01,476 Speaker 1: bit more useful, being less afraid of it, and maybe 643 00:32:01,796 --> 00:32:04,396 Speaker 1: using it for the problem solving reason it evolved in 644 00:32:04,396 --> 00:32:06,356 Speaker 1: the first place, that we can all be a little 645 00:32:06,356 --> 00:32:10,076 Speaker 1: bit happier. Ironically by accepting sadness, I really do. I 646 00:32:10,076 --> 00:32:15,756 Speaker 1: think it makes you more brave and fearless because the 647 00:32:15,796 --> 00:32:18,476 Speaker 1: pursuit of happiness, there are moments of joy, and there 648 00:32:18,516 --> 00:32:20,796 Speaker 1: will be moments where we will feel lifted, but there's 649 00:32:20,796 --> 00:32:23,916 Speaker 1: always that niggling all, but make sure you stay happy 650 00:32:23,956 --> 00:32:26,036 Speaker 1: because oh, if you feel sad, oh that's not going 651 00:32:26,076 --> 00:32:29,476 Speaker 1: to feel good. If you're not afraid of sadness, it's 652 00:32:29,516 --> 00:32:34,276 Speaker 1: incredibly liberating and you can live your life really and 653 00:32:34,636 --> 00:32:38,156 Speaker 1: you're going to experience greater highs because you're not afraid 654 00:32:38,316 --> 00:32:41,396 Speaker 1: of those lows as well. So, yeah, I do think 655 00:32:41,396 --> 00:32:44,836 Speaker 1: it's the science bears out in my experience that actually, yeah, 656 00:32:44,876 --> 00:32:48,356 Speaker 1: if we allow ourselves to experience sadness, we can be happier. 657 00:32:48,436 --> 00:32:52,116 Speaker 1: To Hearing Helen describe all the ways we get everyday 658 00:32:52,196 --> 00:32:54,836 Speaker 1: sadness wrong made me realize that I need to commit 659 00:32:54,836 --> 00:32:57,636 Speaker 1: to dealing with sorrow in a more productive way. It 660 00:32:57,716 --> 00:32:59,956 Speaker 1: gave me hope that we can all be sad better. 661 00:33:00,796 --> 00:33:03,116 Speaker 1: After talking with Helen, I'm going to try to notice 662 00:33:03,156 --> 00:33:05,556 Speaker 1: when I'm feeling sad and watch for those times when 663 00:33:05,556 --> 00:33:08,356 Speaker 1: I'm using hyper business to block it out, and if 664 00:33:08,356 --> 00:33:11,676 Speaker 1: I recognize that I'm feeling particularly avoidant, I'll see if 665 00:33:11,676 --> 00:33:14,196 Speaker 1: I can commit to just gently sitting with my feelings 666 00:33:14,276 --> 00:33:17,316 Speaker 1: for a couple minutes. I'm also going to try being 667 00:33:17,316 --> 00:33:19,756 Speaker 1: more honest with the people around me when I'm feeling blue. 668 00:33:20,396 --> 00:33:22,356 Speaker 1: I'm going to try to open up more when one 669 00:33:22,356 --> 00:33:25,956 Speaker 1: of my metaphorical whirlpool repair dudes provides a caring ear, 670 00:33:26,516 --> 00:33:29,276 Speaker 1: and I'll remind myself that I can be the whirlpool 671 00:33:29,316 --> 00:33:32,356 Speaker 1: repair gal for those I care about. I'll start by 672 00:33:32,396 --> 00:33:35,676 Speaker 1: becoming more curious when I ask that standard how are 673 00:33:35,716 --> 00:33:38,516 Speaker 1: you question? I might even offer a bit of a 674 00:33:38,556 --> 00:33:43,196 Speaker 1: follow up, I mean, how are you really? I hope 675 00:33:43,196 --> 00:33:45,556 Speaker 1: you've learned some strategies today that you can use to 676 00:33:45,636 --> 00:33:48,116 Speaker 1: feel sad better, and I hope you'll come back to 677 00:33:48,196 --> 00:33:50,836 Speaker 1: join me for the next episode of The Happiness Lab 678 00:33:51,036 --> 00:33:56,516 Speaker 1: with me Doctor Laurie Santos. If you love this show 679 00:33:56,596 --> 00:34:00,396 Speaker 1: and others from Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. 680 00:34:00,956 --> 00:34:04,476 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content 681 00:34:04,516 --> 00:34:07,476 Speaker 1: and uninterrupted listening for only four ninety nine a month. 682 00:34:08,156 --> 00:34:11,036 Speaker 1: As a special gift of pushkin Plus subscribers, I'll be 683 00:34:11,036 --> 00:34:13,956 Speaker 1: sharing a series of six guided meditations to help you 684 00:34:14,036 --> 00:34:17,636 Speaker 1: practice the lessons we've learned from our experts. Pushkin Plus 685 00:34:17,676 --> 00:34:20,236 Speaker 1: is available on the show page and Apple Podcasts, or 686 00:34:20,276 --> 00:34:27,636 Speaker 1: at pushkin dot fm, slash plus. The Happiness Lab is 687 00:34:27,676 --> 00:34:30,716 Speaker 1: co written and produced by Ryan Dilley, Emily Anne Vaughan 688 00:34:30,996 --> 00:34:35,076 Speaker 1: and Courtney Guerino. Our original music was composed by Zachary Silver, 689 00:34:35,476 --> 00:34:39,516 Speaker 1: with additional scoring, mixing, and mastering by Evan Viola. Special 690 00:34:39,516 --> 00:34:44,476 Speaker 1: thanks to Milabelle, Heather Faine, John Schnars, Carli Migliori, Christina Sullivan, 691 00:34:44,676 --> 00:34:49,396 Speaker 1: Brandt Haynes, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, Nicole Morano, Royston Preserved, 692 00:34:49,756 --> 00:34:53,996 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg, and my agent Ben Davis. That Happiness Lab 693 00:34:54,036 --> 00:34:56,636 Speaker 1: is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and Nate Doctor 694 00:34:56,716 --> 00:35:00,476 Speaker 1: Laurie Santos. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the 695 00:35:00,476 --> 00:35:05,996 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts,