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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I have been a felony

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Speaker 1: prosecutor in inner city Atlanta for over a decade. I

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Speaker 1: have been a journalist over twenty years. I've handled and

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Speaker 1: covered literally thousands of cases. Of all of those cases,

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Speaker 1: the injustice of some just stick with me. Wrongful accusation.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. These good sentences that don't fit the crime,

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Speaker 1: victims cries for help ignored. Many cases may have been

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Speaker 1: resolved in courts, but not resolved in my mind. I

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Speaker 1: walked up to the house, I saw bloody hand marks

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Speaker 1: on the front door. I just get sick. It's pure evil.

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Speaker 1: Oxygen now bringing you in Justice with Nancy Grace premiere

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Speaker 1: July thirteen, six pm Eastern. I'm Nancy Grace, and this

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Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. When

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Speaker 1: I hear cries of victims, when I hear about bloody

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Speaker 1: handprints on a scene, when I hear the pain in

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Speaker 1: victims voices and police describing a crime scene, I want justice.

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Speaker 1: I want justice, and that is why the premiere of

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Speaker 1: Injustice with Nancy Grace that launches on Oxygen July thirteen.

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Speaker 1: It's so important to me, guys. I'm Nancy Grace, this

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Speaker 1: is crime Stories. I want to thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us on this topic that is so dear to

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Speaker 1: my heart. I can't count, I literally cannot count the

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Speaker 1: number of cases I handled as a felony prosecutor in

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Speaker 1: any inner city Atlanta. Following the murder of my fiancee

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Speaker 1: Keith shortly before our wedding, that moment, that singular moment,

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Speaker 1: when I learned of his murderer, changed the course of

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Speaker 1: my life and others lives as well. Keith lost his

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Speaker 1: life in one brutal, senseless act. It unfolded in such

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Speaker 1: a way I could never have imagined growing up on

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Speaker 1: a red dirt road that I would end up in

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Speaker 1: a law school, much less on TV for Pete's sake,

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Speaker 1: But what I went through following his murder and living

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Speaker 1: through his trial. I remember distinctly being called as a

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Speaker 1: witness and hearing the sound of my boots going across

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Speaker 1: a marble floor and a big old courtroom, and then

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Speaker 1: up two sets the stairs to the witness seat, and

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Speaker 1: then after testifying to a jury, coming back down and

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Speaker 1: passing the state's table and on it for the first time,

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Speaker 1: I saw Keith's bloody Denham's shirt that he had been

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Speaker 1: wearing that morning when he left to go to work,

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Speaker 1: and I remember stopping and looking at it. I turned

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Speaker 1: and kept walking toward the door, and I passed the

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Speaker 1: defense table and I looked at the defendant. He looked

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Speaker 1: at me very briefly, that looked straight down at his lap.

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Speaker 1: Then I looked at his two defense lawyers on either

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Speaker 1: side of him, and they immediately looked down at the table.

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Speaker 1: Nobody could look at me in the face. And I

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Speaker 1: remember turning and continuing to walk out of the courtroom,

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Speaker 1: and everything was quiet, and I could hear again the

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Speaker 1: sound of my boots with each step hitting that marble floor,

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Speaker 1: until wide double doors opened and they whooshed shut behind me.

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Speaker 1: That was my first exposure to a court of law.

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Speaker 1: I had never seen one, been in one, knew anything

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Speaker 1: about them. That is what I remember. All the years

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Speaker 1: of prosecuting, studying, researching, investigating have now culminated in this

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Speaker 1: Oxygen series Injustice with Nancy Grace, and I am so

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Speaker 1: proud to you listening. You have been with me from

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Speaker 1: the get go, since I first appeared on Court TV

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Speaker 1: air with Johnny Cock, when God rest his soul through

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Speaker 1: the birth of the Twins, to Serious to Crime online

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Speaker 1: and now amazingly my new TV home, Oxygen and Injustice,

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace joining me right now, two people that

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Speaker 1: I care about very very much here in the studio

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Speaker 1: with me my partner in crime, Jackie Howard joining me

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Speaker 1: from our Manhattan studios Jason Copp. Guys, it's amazing to

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Speaker 1: me what we're doing with the Oxygen series, Jackie. It

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Speaker 1: is absolutely amazing. Nancy, and I also find that it's

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Speaker 1: kind of prophetic from everything that you have been through

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Speaker 1: from the beginning of your career, how you landed here

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Speaker 1: to now. Surely that has had to impact the cases

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Speaker 1: that you because there are some injustices we're seeing here. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's funny that you say that, because I

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Speaker 1: look back on cases that I actually tried, so many

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Speaker 1: of them, I mean well over one hundred, and I

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Speaker 1: can't even count the number of juvenile cases I tried,

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Speaker 1: and there's no record of them because they're kept sealed.

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Speaker 1: There had to be seventy eighty one hundred of those

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Speaker 1: as well, and I rethink them and I reanalyze them,

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Speaker 1: and including investigations that I did, cases that I covered

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Speaker 1: that required my own investigation to cover them. The cases

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Speaker 1: we have singled out for the Auction series all stand

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Speaker 1: for something, and each one involves an incredible injustice. Listen, Hello,

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Speaker 1: nine one on, Hello, what's going on there? What's going

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Speaker 1: on there? One thing? I'm okay, Jason. I can't tell

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Speaker 1: you how hearing that call, and I haven't heard it

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Speaker 1: for so long, it's actually bringing tears to my eyes.

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Speaker 1: My chest is actually hurting hearing that because I know

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Speaker 1: that voice, that screaming in the background is my own friend, Dan,

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Speaker 1: who comes home to find his wife murdered. That's what

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Speaker 1: he tells police. Hold on, take a listen to this.

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Speaker 1: The more they try to eliminate him, the harder of

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Speaker 1: the time they were having eliminating him. They couldn't account

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Speaker 1: for his time, you know. Cell Phone tracking and triangulation

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Speaker 1: is relationship with Pamela, their past, their money, they're fine,

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Speaker 1: Nance's potential affairs, court dealings. It all came back to

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Speaker 1: a domestic comicide. He's the last one to see her.

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Speaker 1: He's the one that finds the body. He's covered in

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Speaker 1: blood in the home that they shared. His DNA is everywhere,

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Speaker 1: his bloody fingerprints are everywhere, and his blue Jay's missing.

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Speaker 1: Jason copp You've been watching as we investigate the cases

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Speaker 1: way in so Nancy Oxygen played the Injustice trailer to

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Speaker 1: Rave Reviews at Crime Come this year, and I believe

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Speaker 1: that's because a lot of people are interested in true

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Speaker 1: crime because they really want to help. As to what

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Speaker 1: you were just saying, how can Injustice help victims of

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Speaker 1: current crimes and help victims of future crimes as far

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Speaker 1: as getting people interested publicly and having people sort of

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Speaker 1: think about these stories the way that you do. I

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Speaker 1: believe Injustice with Nancy Grace speaks to victims now because

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Speaker 1: it shows them it's never over. It's never over until

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Speaker 1: justice has been served. Someone cares, someone will still investigate,

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Speaker 1: someone will still look at your case no matter how

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Speaker 1: much time has passed, no matter what has happened. Somebody cares,

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Speaker 1: and somebody is willing to fight the fight and stay

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Speaker 1: strong till the end, until justice is served. These stories

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Speaker 1: are just unbelievable when people are going to be on

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Speaker 1: the edge of their seats with these true crime stories.

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Speaker 1: Why did you decide on these particular cases for Injustice

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Speaker 1: separate from all the other amazing stories that you've done

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Speaker 1: in your past. You just brought a memory to meet

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Speaker 1: Jason Copp because I would be walking down and there

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Speaker 1: were really wide hauls of the courthouse because you know,

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Speaker 1: you'd bring jurars about to be in panel. That'd be

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Speaker 1: about one hundred per case to start with. Anyway, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you've got to have huge, wide hauls at courthouses if

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Speaker 1: you can. I'd be coming down a hall first thing

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Speaker 1: in the morning, let's just say a quarter of eight,

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Speaker 1: heading to court with all my files with me, and

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Speaker 1: the halls will be flooded with defendants, defense attorneys, investigators,

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Speaker 1: court clerks, probation officers, families, the works. And I would

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Speaker 1: run into a defense attorney and I would typically have

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Speaker 1: the same greeting, good morning. Never lack of business for you.

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Speaker 1: In other words, there's always another case. There's always going

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Speaker 1: to be another crime, and there's always going to be

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Speaker 1: a defense attorney to try to get somebody off the hook.

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Speaker 1: What I'm saying is it's like drinking from a fire hydrant. Jason.

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Speaker 1: There's thousands of cases that need a spotlight. Thousands, Jason,

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Speaker 1: It's more than I can even say. We work, and

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Speaker 1: we worked, and we worked to pick out cases that

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Speaker 1: not only warrant investigation, but need a spotlight shine on

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Speaker 1: them because of their particular nature, what they stand for.

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Speaker 1: That is how we picked the cases. And I gotta

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Speaker 1: tell you something, Jason. This case of Pam's murder, brutal murder,

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Speaker 1: the purple actually carved figures into her body. Okay, and

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Speaker 1: this is a friend of mine. I had just seen

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Speaker 1: Pam a couple of nights before she was murdered, and

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Speaker 1: it was a lot for me to take in that

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Speaker 1: she had been murdered. And it's such a horrible, brutal fashion.

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Speaker 1: Then another friend, her husband screaming on nine one one

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Speaker 1: he finds her dead body. I will never forget him

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Speaker 1: calling me from the back of a patrol car, Jason.

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Speaker 1: And you know what that means. He's not being treated

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Speaker 1: as a victim or a witness. They have him in

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Speaker 1: the back of a cop car. Crime stories with Nancy

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Speaker 1: Grace and marks on the front door. They just get sick.

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Speaker 1: It's pure, even flatter, blood all over the bread. I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to piece this together. Way as this beautiful young

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Speaker 1: girl and eating so severely and dumped in a river.

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Speaker 1: We know who did it. They couldn't find him comfortable.

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Speaker 1: Is that something that's fair? Is that justice that sufficient.

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Speaker 1: They say the evidence wasn't provided to the defense, it

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Speaker 1: actually was. Everything seems settled, and then Bob shall, oh,

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Speaker 1: we have a warm for your or I should not

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Speaker 1: have to tell people that there are some killers who

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Speaker 1: are not redeemable. Injustice goes wrong, and I just kept

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Speaker 1: telling myself that this can't be happening. The system fails.

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Speaker 1: If I had known, then I would have been able

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Speaker 1: to protect her. The injustice of these cases changes everybody's

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Speaker 1: life and nothing is ever the same. Injustice with Nancy Greece,

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Speaker 1: a new series Sentury July thirteenth and six on Oxygen.

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Speaker 1: You know, just hearing the mix of the cases we

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Speaker 1: are bringing you on Injustice with Nancy Grace, I feel

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Speaker 1: like a rocket's about to launch and everybody's doing a

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Speaker 1: countdown and hearing the cases and what they stand for

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Speaker 1: and why they were chosen to spotlight the injustice regarding

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Speaker 1: those cases. Right now, I'm talking about a dear friend

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Speaker 1: of mine, Pam, found dead in her home, bludgeoned, beaten,

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Speaker 1: one of the bloodiest crime scenes I've ever seen, the

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Speaker 1: killer etching carving into her skin. And then my other friend,

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Speaker 1: her husband, charged with the murder. That was a real

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Speaker 1: moral test for me, because everything pointed to Daniel. Listen.

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Speaker 1: Officers that responded to that location said the house was

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Speaker 1: a mass. There was blood spatter that was near the door.

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Speaker 1: Pamels on the ground lifeless, She had some defensive wounds

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Speaker 1: in her hands. Clearly she was in a fight for

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Speaker 1: her life. There was a serious struggle. There was a

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Speaker 1: major fight that happened in the house. There was blood everywhere,

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Speaker 1: but they found no weapon. What happened to the weapon?

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Speaker 1: And keep this in mind, Pam and Dan were building

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Speaker 1: their dream house. They've been living in what looked to

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Speaker 1: me like a mobile hume, but it was kind of

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Speaker 1: like a prefab home for a long time. And they

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Speaker 1: were building this thing that looked like an Italian villa

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Speaker 1: on the side of a mountain. And they were using

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Speaker 1: all their money to make it real. Okay, they weren't,

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Speaker 1: you know, bringing in bricks from home depot or lows.

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Speaker 1: They were bringing in stuff from Italy. It was costing

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Speaker 1: a fortune. I imagine a huge financial burden on them.

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Speaker 1: Because they were halfway through it. They were like, should

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Speaker 1: we keep going and should we finish? They had no

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Speaker 1: choice but to finish, and they lived up on a

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Speaker 1: rugged mountain in California, and it was very hard to

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Speaker 1: get up there. It takes me forever to get up

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Speaker 1: to their place. Who in the hay would climb up

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Speaker 1: the side of a mountain to commit a murder and

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Speaker 1: nothing stolen, no sex attack? Who I was tested because

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Speaker 1: when Daniel called me from the back of a police car,

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Speaker 1: we talked, and we talked and we talked then and more.

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Speaker 1: When I was speaking to Daniel one on one and

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Speaker 1: I am asking him questions that the investigators had not asked,

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Speaker 1: I learned and I believe I was the only one

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Speaker 1: to know at that moment. When I said, well, Daniel,

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Speaker 1: was anything taken from the home, he goes, no, nothing

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Speaker 1: except you know what, They took a pair of my

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Speaker 1: blue chains. And the moment he said that, my world

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Speaker 1: changed because whoever murdered Pam had to be covered in blood,

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Speaker 1: covered then very short for a guy, very thin, I

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Speaker 1: certainly couldn't squeeze into a pair of his jeans. And

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Speaker 1: it dawned on me, why would anybody want to get

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Speaker 1: rid of their blue jeans, their favorite jeans they wore

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Speaker 1: practically every day, only the killer because they were likely

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Speaker 1: covered in blood. That's where my mind went and I

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Speaker 1: looked at him, and I remember, Jackie, the chill going

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Speaker 1: down my body when he goes looked at me straight

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Speaker 1: in the face and says, I, No, nothing was stolen

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Speaker 1: except you know, my favorite blue jeans. I wore him

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Speaker 1: every day. That would be something that would really jump

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Speaker 1: out at me if I was looking at this case.

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Speaker 1: But you have such a unique way of looking at things,

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Speaker 1: so in looking at this case, wait a minute, you're

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Speaker 1: totally ignoring my moral dilemma. Because here's one of my

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Speaker 1: best friends telling me that the quote killer takes his

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Speaker 1: favorite blue jeans from the crime scene. No money, no jewelry,

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Speaker 1: no electronics, just his blue jeans he wore every day.

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Speaker 1: Why and I mean the seriously, the only nobody in

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Speaker 1: this studio right now could fit into those blue jeans.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you, it's like, you know, Prince Prince

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Speaker 1: would wear like a woman size five clothing, like I

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Speaker 1: could get one leg into that. No. Same thing with Daniel.

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Speaker 1: He is, you know, a mighty voice in the courtroom,

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Speaker 1: but when you see him, he's small physically. I mean, seriously,

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Speaker 1: my daughter could probably wear his blue jeans. What killer?

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Speaker 1: And it had to be a man, of course to

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Speaker 1: overpower and so bloody and so violent, etching into her skin.

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Speaker 1: A man did it, and they wanted Daniel's blue jeans,

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Speaker 1: bloody blue jeans. And when I heard that, Jackie, I

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Speaker 1: was like, all tow as sit up inside, because no way,

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Speaker 1: even though I know that pointed to Dan's the killer,

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Speaker 1: even though I knew cops are piling on and they

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Speaker 1: were going to arrest him. I knew this detail, and

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Speaker 1: I knew he had not told the cops that, And

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Speaker 1: I was really torn do I tell the cops or

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Speaker 1: do I keep it a secret because I believe Dan's innocent.

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Speaker 1: I actually wasn't ignoring what you were saying. You just

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Speaker 1: built into my point? Is it brought in the Nancy

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Speaker 1: Grace method of looking at facts and figuring things out.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't a moral dilema for you because you knew

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Speaker 1: your friend, So how did you put your idea in there?

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Speaker 1: It's just it's making my stomach hurt even remembering trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out do I take this to police? Do

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Speaker 1: I call them right now or not? And I was

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Speaker 1: really torn up about it. I told nobody at all

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Speaker 1: late that night. I mean I was in California. I

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Speaker 1: don't even remember what case I was covering, and I

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Speaker 1: remember taking my husband then we weren't married off away

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Speaker 1: when nobody could hear, and I said, I need you

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Speaker 1: to listen to this. I got to figure out what

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do, and I told him, and I

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Speaker 1: broke down in tears because I did not want to

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Speaker 1: tell police what I knew. When you're talking about a method, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: when I walked into a room a crime scene, I

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Speaker 1: feel almost inhuman because everywhere I look, I see evidence.

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Speaker 1: Every part of the wall, the floor, the door or

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Speaker 1: the light switch, the rug to chair, everything, the trash can,

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Speaker 1: everything screams evidence sent me. And I can't help that.

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Speaker 1: Every car that goes by, I look at their tag

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Speaker 1: and memorize every everything that's just built in. It's like

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Speaker 1: years of training, years of investigation. It becomes a way

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Speaker 1: of life, and at the very heart of that is

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Speaker 1: seeking justice, seeking a verdict that speaks the truth, no

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Speaker 1: matter what, no matter how whether the courthouse falls down

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Speaker 1: around me. As I'm looking for the truth, and no

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Speaker 1: matter who stands in the way, I guess that's my method. Guys,

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Speaker 1: Please join us July thirteen, six pm Eastern Injustice with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace only on Oxygen, the true network for crime.

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace signing off, good bye friend,