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Speaker 1: Hi, guys.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Killer Thriller, docu-edition. So what if two

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Speaker 2: people tell you completely different stories about a murder and

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Speaker 2: both stories sound believable? That's the mystery at the heart

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Speaker 2: of Murder in Glitterball City, which is HBO's documentary from

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Speaker 2: filmmakers Fenton Bailey and Randy Barbato. In 2010, the body

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Speaker 2: of James Carroll, a talented hairdresser and drag performer, was

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Speaker 2: discovered buried in the basement of a Victorian home in Louisville, Kentucky.

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Speaker 2: And inside that home were two former lovers, Joey Banas

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Speaker 2: and Jeffrey Munt. And when police began asking questions, each

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Speaker 2: man had a very different story about what happened to Jamie,

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Speaker 2: with each ultimately accusing the other of murder. And then

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Speaker 2: there was this video. It was a strange recording made

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Speaker 2: by Joey Banas will become one of the most compelling

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Speaker 2: and puzzling pieces of evidence in the entire case. And

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Speaker 2: today we are going inside murder in Glitterball City with

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Speaker 2: Fanton Bailey. and Randy Barbato to talk about this extraordinary

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Speaker 2: case and the people behind the headlines and why sometimes

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Speaker 2: the most difficult mysteries aren't about what happened, but who

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Speaker 2: you believe. Gentlemen, first, welcome. Thank you for joining me.

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Speaker 2: Let me congratulate you on the documentary. Gripping, fascinating, really creepy,

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Speaker 2: but also I knew nothing about Louisville. So I thank

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Speaker 2: you for that. What a fascinating place. Beautiful, fascinating, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, eccentric, colorful, very much bent in like your background.

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Speaker 3: The homes are beautiful.

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Speaker 2: So I really didn't know anything about Louisville and I

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Speaker 2: really enjoyed learning about it. Just a colorful, fabulous place

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Speaker 2: filled with history. But let's talk about why you chose Louisville.

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Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about.

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Speaker 3: Why?

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Speaker 2: And again, listeners, we're talking about the men behind RuPaul's

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Speaker 2: Drag Race. Very unlike this documentary, right? In terms of

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Speaker 2: genre and what you're doing. But what about this case

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Speaker 2: made you guys want to make this documentary?

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 1: Initially, HBO reached out to us and told us about

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Speaker 1: this book written by David Domine.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 1: And we read the book and we said, well, this

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Speaker 1: seems really interesting.

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Speaker 5: So we went to Louisville.

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Speaker 1: And immediately, and just to meet some people, talk to

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Speaker 1: some characters in the book to get a sense of

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Speaker 1: the city. And it was that visit that made us say, oh,

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Speaker 1: my God, you know, we got to do this. And

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just the story, because we thought that the

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Speaker 1: story and the crime, although there were two trials that

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Speaker 1: had already taken place, and one person was convicted and

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Speaker 1: the other person was found guilty but never really served

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Speaker 1: significant time in jail. So there were some questions about

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Speaker 1: the crime, but we were also just interested in the

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Speaker 1: community and interested particularly in learning a bit more about

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Speaker 1: the victim and trying to tell his story as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think you did, in my humble opinion, such a

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Speaker 2: good job of showcasing the community and the quote unquote characters.

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Speaker 2: such interesting, colorful, endearing group of people, right? And so

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Speaker 2: all of that in contrast to the viciousness and what

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Speaker 2: actually happened, there's like that juxtaposition. I just thought the

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Speaker 2: whole thing was fascinating. But let's move on. And what

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Speaker 2: I want to know is, you know, you guys open

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Speaker 2: it with Joey confessing to murder. And then you find

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Speaker 2: out that the video is something– potentially very different than

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Speaker 2: what it appears. When you guys first saw that footage,

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Speaker 2: did you think that that was a genuine confession?

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Speaker 6: When we saw that, I remember we saw it and

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Speaker 6: we thought, that is the beginning of the film.

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Speaker 4: That was like... Because the.

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Speaker 6: Story is so complicated and there were so many different

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Speaker 6: versions and they each accused the other and it was like,

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Speaker 6: where do you start with it? And when we saw

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Speaker 6: that tape, we were like, that's where you start.

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Speaker 5: Because.

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Speaker 6: Even though the tape itself is pretty, I mean, it's

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Speaker 6: unusual that someone confesses to a murder on tape. But

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Speaker 6: then there's this bit before it and after it that

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Speaker 6: calls all that into question. And we were like, this

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Speaker 6: is kind of really, you know, it puts you right

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Speaker 6: in the middle of it from the beginning. And you

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Speaker 6: may think you know what's happened, but. if you watch

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Speaker 6: the beginning and the end of that, you're like, what

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Speaker 6: is going on here? Like, it looks like Joey's confessed,

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Speaker 6: but it seems that Jeffrey isn't really being held hostage

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Speaker 6: on the bed. And then it looks like Jeffrey's sitting

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Speaker 6: up on the bed, writing on his computer.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 6: And Joey's saying, did I give you what you need?

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Speaker 6: You know, it's like very, it suddenly feels very performative.

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Speaker 6: It's just, and so you see it two ways. You know,

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Speaker 6: the first time you see it without those bits, you're like.

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Speaker 4: This is a confession. Then you see it with those,

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Speaker 4: bits at either end you're like well yeah this.

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Speaker 2: Is you know when i first saw it i wasn't

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Speaker 2: convinced i i don't know maybe i am just so intuitive.

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Speaker 3: But i don't really think that.

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Speaker 4: I think you are i think yes yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah i don't i think i don't know the way

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Speaker 2: the delivery was so um robotic in a way it

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Speaker 2: felt forced and i don't know that i thought oh

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Speaker 2: you know he definitely didn't do anything i but something

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Speaker 2: there was definitely, I had like, something feels a little

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Speaker 2: off about this moment.

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Speaker 3: Did you guys feel like that?

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 5: I mean, yes. And I mean, it's so arresting. I

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Speaker 5: think that's the first thing that we felt. And then yeah,

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Speaker 5: it felt stilted.

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Speaker 1: And, and as we, you know, as we really immersed

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Speaker 1: ourselves in, in trying to find out more about the

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Speaker 1: story and when we talked to, you know, the prosecutors

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Speaker 1: and when we started talking to people who knew both

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey and Joey, then it started to really become clear

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Speaker 1: that this story was not as clean.

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Speaker 5: Cut as it was presented. And also, you know, we

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Speaker 5: didn't speak with Jeffrey.

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Speaker 3: No one can find him, right? Is he still listening?

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We did talk to Joey, and I think the combination

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Speaker 1: of all the people we spoke with and the prosecutors

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Speaker 1: and looking at the evidence, it became very clear that

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Speaker 1: this was not– two people should be behind bars, not

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Speaker 1: just one.

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Speaker 3: That felt very, very clear to me.

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Speaker 6: I think the other thing was, you know, that when

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Speaker 6: we saw that tape, You know, they talk about the

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Speaker 6: method to the madness.

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Speaker 4: There's also, like, the crystal method to the madness.

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Speaker 6: Like, these guys were on so much drugs and taking

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Speaker 6: so many drugs over such a long period of time

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Speaker 6: that they weren't behaving normally. And you're right that something's off.

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Speaker 6: But I think we just thought they were both so

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Speaker 6: drug addled it was hard to get a read on

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Speaker 6: what was real and what was not.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You know, I didn't understand... Jeff got such a light sentence.

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Speaker 2: And even with, um, even with the jury saying, okay,

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Speaker 2: he's not responsible for the actual murder.

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Speaker 3: He was there. He was an accomplice.

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Speaker 2: He didn't report it until he was, you know, until

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Speaker 2: the phone call and he was brought to the police station.

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Speaker 3: How did he, how didn't, I don't get it. He,

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Speaker 3: what'd he get?

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Speaker 2: He got out after a year, he got three years.

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Speaker 2: I found that I couldn't quite grasp that.

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Speaker 6: He got a much shorter sentence, I think, not for murder,

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Speaker 6: but for, like, interfering with a dead body and, you know, theft.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he was there. He was there to put

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Speaker 3: the body into the box.

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Speaker 1: And they also lived in that house with the body

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Speaker 1: in the basement for, I think, nine months.

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Speaker 5: Oh, God.

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Speaker 6: But it was a different jury, and Jeff was– a

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Speaker 6: more presentable, um, you know, person and witness.

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Speaker 2: I thought he was only more presentable because he didn't

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Speaker 2: have a background officially. I didn't find him. I found

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Speaker 2: him whack a doodle do on stand. I mean, I,

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Speaker 2: I found him scary and I actually, weirdly enough, didn't

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Speaker 2: find Joey as off-putting.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 6: I mean, Joey had the colorful background, but seemed more

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Speaker 6: authentic or integral as a person, right? Whereas Jeffrey was

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Speaker 6: just this very sort of arrogant, trying to make fun

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Speaker 6: of the lawyers kind of point.

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Speaker 4: Of view and stuck up, you know? Yes, yes.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Also, Jeffrey had the better lawyers, though. You know, his

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Speaker 6: parents paid for The lawyer admits he's an expensive lawyer.

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Speaker 6: You've got to be able to afford him.

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Speaker 4: Whereas Darren, what was his name?

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Speaker 5: Darren. Darren's a great lawyer.

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Speaker 1: It's just the reason. It's kind of the resources of

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Speaker 1: how they can build up the defense. I mean, even

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Speaker 1: the prosecutors didn't have the resources to convict in some

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Speaker 1: ways because at the time this happened, they didn't have

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Speaker 1: the kind of digital expertise they have now. And there

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Speaker 1: was so much, all those, you know, we got access.

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Speaker 5: To Chloe's laptop. And we were able to spend the

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Speaker 5: time to go through that.

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Speaker 1: And there's a lot of stuff in there that didn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily make it into the courtroom.

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Speaker 2: Guys, I don't, explain to me, and I know one

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Speaker 2: was an Apple and the police only had access to,

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Speaker 2: what was that?

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Speaker 3: It wasn't that, it wasn't 1950s. What happened there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Why couldn't they, I mean, you guys got in, why

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Speaker 3: couldn't the cops?

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Speaker 6: It was just a sheer volume of texts, you know,

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Speaker 6: hundreds and hundreds of pages of texts.

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Speaker 3: But you all had the wherewithal to go through them.

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Speaker 4: You know, the theory.

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Speaker 6: Goes that the problem for the prosecution was that they

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Speaker 6: weren't able to access anything that wasn't on a Mac.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't that sound strange to you guys?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it does seem strange, but it was, you know,

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Speaker 4: it was.

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Speaker 5: 2009.

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Speaker 6: It was like, you know, a while ago and it

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Speaker 6: was before this sort of mountain of evidence was generally

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Speaker 6: available or that people had the know-how to go through it.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: And I think we were, we were also, I mean,

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Speaker 1: in addition, like we were really intrigued by that relationship

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Speaker 1: and we were trying to understand who, who might be

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Speaker 1: more responsible if they were equally responsible.

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Speaker 5: I think we were looking at things in a slightly different.

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Speaker 1: Way than they were. And yeah, we had different technology

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Speaker 1: and more access so that we were able to go

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Speaker 1: through things.

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Speaker 2: It just seemed to me when you all, when you

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Speaker 2: did start showing us what was in that laptop, that

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Speaker 2: is all information that seems very necessary. You know, if

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Speaker 2: you're going to try this case, And what now, what

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Speaker 2: now that there is all that, all this additional information,

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Speaker 2: are they going to bring Jeff back in if they

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Speaker 2: could find him?

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Speaker 4: I don't think so. No, I don't think there's any,

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Speaker 4: any chance of that.

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Speaker 3: That is.

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Speaker 2: And then even when they said I was blown away

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Speaker 2: when I want to say it was Jeff who claimed

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Speaker 2: that Jamie's throat was slit and Joey said that Jeff

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Speaker 2: stabbed him and there was the stab wounds as opposed

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Speaker 2: to the slit throat. That freaked me out. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that to me seems like a really powerful piece of evidence.

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Speaker 5: Me too.

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Speaker 1: And the moment they said that, I remember just thinking, wait,

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Speaker 1: I don't understand. Like, how is that not part of

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Speaker 1: this case? And the police officers were agreeing. They're like, exactly.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, just, it really does feel like something went

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Speaker 2: terribly wrong here. Well, something definitely did go terribly wrong here,

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Speaker 2: but in terms of of justice being served, you know,

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Speaker 2: and I, it's, it's, it's, um, it's, you know, the

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Speaker 2: whole thing is so a lot of times I, obviously

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Speaker 2: I watch a lot of true crime and I get

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Speaker 2: to interview fascinating.

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Speaker 3: People like you.

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Speaker 2: And it's, it's a much better feeling when at the end,

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Speaker 2: when you feel like somebody there's, there's justice, right.

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Speaker 3: And the justice is served.

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Speaker 2: It's always horrible to watch, you know, crime and true

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Speaker 2: crime documentaries are not always fun for sure. But at

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Speaker 2: least at the end of so many of them, at

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Speaker 2: least you see justice being served. And I just, when

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Speaker 2: I was done with this, I was just pissed.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I don't even know for sure that Jeff did it.

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Speaker 2: But, you know, even what you guys revealed made me

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Speaker 2: feel like this is not, nothing's wrapped up in, you know,

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Speaker 2: a nice little ball here.

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Speaker 3: This is all over the place. It's very frustrating.

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Speaker 6: I do think the justice system is really, I know

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Speaker 6: it's the best we've got. but it does seem very

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Speaker 6: flawed and unreliable.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: And I, for example, the whole, the whole forgery thing,

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Speaker 6: you know, like the idea that Jeffrey got a hold

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Speaker 6: of Jamie's computer and used it to forge money.

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Speaker 4: And it's like, that doesn't seem to.

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Speaker 6: Be the actions of someone who's not involved in a,

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Speaker 6: in the other crime, the murder.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 6: Like how cold can you be that, someone has died

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Speaker 6: in front of you, you've participated in burying the body,

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Speaker 6: but then you use their computer, and then you start

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Speaker 6: forging money, and then you're like, well, if you can

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Speaker 6: do that, maybe that's what you were intending to do

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Speaker 6: all along. Maybe it wasn't just like, well, what do

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Speaker 6: we do now? We need money, so let's forge something.

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Speaker 1: And if you were truly terrified of the person you

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Speaker 1: were with, that moment when he got arrested, when... There

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Speaker 1: was the opportunity for.

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Speaker 3: Him to run or.

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Speaker 5: Go to the police or anything.

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Speaker 1: And instead he bailed him out.

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Speaker 4: Yep.

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Speaker 3: $ 20, 000. Wasn't it?

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Something real dollars.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Real, real dollars.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's funny because, uh, I don't.

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Speaker 2: From what I, from what I saw watching this documentary,

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Speaker 2: Joey was no angel and I don't know. It's like,

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Speaker 2: so I, and I was very taken with his, uh, ex-boyfriend. Wouldn't,

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Speaker 2: the one that he took the glass and stabbed him

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Speaker 2: in the arm and that, and the guy, then the

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Speaker 2: way that Joey moved in next door to him. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that's some excuse me.

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Speaker 5: No, it is.

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Speaker 2: And I, when he said it, he was like he,

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Speaker 2: and he got choked up and I felt sick for

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Speaker 2: this guy.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: So I'm, I didn't get the impression watching the documentary that,

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Speaker 2: you know, Joey is an angel, right? No.

300
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Speaker 5: But there's something about Joey, though, that we kind of.

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Speaker 1: We know who he is in a way. Like, I

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Speaker 1: don't think he, I think we got a lot of

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Speaker 1: his truth from him. And I don't think that, and

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Speaker 1: I think he's exactly where he belongs.

305
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Speaker 5: Where he belongs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what it feels like. It just feels like

307
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Speaker 2: Jeff should be there, too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: In some way, I think Jeff's scarier.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I agree.

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Speaker 2: I mean, whatever you guys, however you guys made this,

312
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Speaker 2: made the film, I was definitely more creeped out by Jeff.

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Speaker 3: And they're both creepy.

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Speaker 6: Every time my computer glitches, I'm like, you know.

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Speaker 4: Is Jeff in my computer? Oh God.

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Speaker 3: Fanta, don't put shit in my head.

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Speaker 4: No, I mean. I gotta go.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I think it takes some know-how to forge money.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's not like... I mean, that was for sure.

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Speaker 2: He's very savvy. He was absolutely talented. I mean, this

321
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Speaker 2: is not a stupid guy.

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Speaker 6: And then so out of it on Crystal Meth that

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Speaker 6: he hands off wet sample notes to the valet parking

324
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Speaker 6: as opposed to... using the money that they've properly forged.

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Speaker 6: So it's a crazy story.

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Speaker 2: So many of the characters. I say characters, these are

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Speaker 2: people involved. Um, I was so touched by, and the,

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Speaker 2: so Jeff had those two friends that stood by him

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Speaker 2: and that then he disappeared and they were so hurt

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Speaker 2: by that. And I thought that that was fascinating. Like,

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Speaker 2: are you serious? You actually like, what part am I

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Speaker 2: missing where you really care about this guy? Or there

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00:18:12,630 --> 00:18:16,610
Speaker 2: was some kind of real love and affection. I don't,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I didn't really get it right. Like What

335
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Speaker 2: kind of history did they have with him where he

336
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Speaker 2: was so special to them?

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Speaker 6: I mean, I wonder if there's something slightly psychopathic about

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Speaker 6: Jeff in that maybe he spotted them as vulnerable people

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Speaker 6: who would befriend him and who felt that he was

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Speaker 6: sophisticated and worldly and, you know, I think they were used.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

342
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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: And he was leading a complete double life.

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Speaker 1: And I think when he met Joey, like those two

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Speaker 1: lives kind of- Inverged. Yeah, and then he became sort

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Speaker 1: of the secret Jeffrey kind of took over eventually. I mean,

347
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Speaker 1: we had the carpenter who was hired.

348
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Speaker 5: By Jeffrey. There's a carpenter who was hired by Jeffrey

349
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Speaker 5: to cover the floor with cement after they buried him.

350
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Speaker 3: The little guy that said he offered him his clothes?

351
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Speaker 5: No, no, not that guy.

352
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Speaker 1: He was the guy, the little guy who they offered

353
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Speaker 1: the clothes to was looking after the cats.

354
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Speaker 2: Oh, right.

355
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Speaker 1: Another guy in the film who was... is like a

356
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Speaker 1: carpenter and a fix-it man, handyman.

357
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Speaker 5: He got hired. to to cover the floor with cement and.

358
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Speaker 1: And then um then he never heard back and um

359
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Speaker 1: you know, shortly thereafter they found the body.

360
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Speaker 5: So it was very close to that body never being

361
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Speaker 5: found if.

362
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Speaker 3: He had the cement over.

363
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Speaker 1: But he told us, and I don't think we included

364
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Speaker 1: any of it in the film, that there were times

365
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Speaker 1: when he was doing other work there because he was

366
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Speaker 1: cleaning out the basement. And there were times when they

367
00:20:25,930 --> 00:20:32,860
Speaker 1: had guys, they were having like, daytime sex parties, madhouse.

368
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Speaker 5: So I think there was a point in time where.

369
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Speaker 1: This secret life of Jeffrey's sort of overtook the rest.

370
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Speaker 5: Of his life. Yeah.

371
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Speaker 4: Yeah.

372
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Speaker 2: So one thing I thought was particularly interesting. So you

373
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Speaker 2: talked about how Jeff used to get very jealous that

374
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Speaker 2: he would have to leave for work and leave Joey

375
00:21:02,460 --> 00:21:07,420
Speaker 2: and Jamie there. But then I sort of forgot about that, right?

376
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Speaker 2: I thought, I kind of felt like it all happened

377
00:21:11,570 --> 00:21:15,310
Speaker 2: because it was just so drug-fueled. I mean, I don't

378
00:21:15,330 --> 00:21:17,710
Speaker 2: know if there are enough drugs that would make somebody

379
00:21:17,770 --> 00:21:20,230
Speaker 2: else commit that kind of a heinous murder. That could

380
00:21:20,250 --> 00:21:24,490
Speaker 2: be just drugs or whatever. But So, and then I

381
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 2: sort of forgot about it. Like, do you think that

382
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:27,700
Speaker 2: that was a big piece of this? Do you think

383
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:35,899
Speaker 2: that Jeff or Joey were, you know, jealous and scorned

384
00:21:36,060 --> 00:21:37,739
Speaker 2: and that took them?

385
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,300
Speaker 5: That's what Joey says.

386
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Speaker 1: Joey's kind of defense is that Jeffrey.

387
00:21:45,980 --> 00:21:47,540
Speaker 3: Was- Was jealous of them.

388
00:21:47,980 --> 00:21:50,919
Speaker 1: And he walked away and he took a break and

389
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Speaker 1: then the two of them were- you know, fooling around

390
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,580
Speaker 1: and he went into a rage.

391
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Speaker 2: Yeah. I was just like, did that play? Cause, cause what,

392
00:22:02,250 --> 00:22:04,830
Speaker 2: you know, if not for that, why, how did it,

393
00:22:04,910 --> 00:22:09,430
Speaker 2: was it the drugs that turned this into murder?

394
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Speaker 3: Because that's the only thing all of a sudden, right.

395
00:22:12,060 --> 00:22:15,380
Speaker 2: According to, we don't, I think it was Joey that

396
00:22:15,420 --> 00:22:17,399
Speaker 2: says that he was tied up when Jeff do it.

397
00:22:17,500 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 3: Jeff did it.

398
00:22:18,100 --> 00:22:18,439
Speaker 1: Right.

399
00:22:19,460 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 2: And Jeff claimed that Joey started, I don't know if

400
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,370
Speaker 2: Jeff said he was tied up and, but I couldn't

401
00:22:27,430 --> 00:22:27,949
Speaker 2: figure it out.

402
00:22:27,990 --> 00:22:30,909
Speaker 3: You guys like what other, what happened?

403
00:22:30,990 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 1: It is a drug, like it is all a drug haze.

404
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,679
Speaker 1: And by the way, even the idea, cause certainly the

405
00:22:37,900 --> 00:22:44,730
Speaker 1: prosecutors felt it was sort of drug-fueled frenzy. And that also,

406
00:22:44,750 --> 00:22:49,470
Speaker 1: you know, it was part of this, that Jeffrey had

407
00:22:49,590 --> 00:22:57,620
Speaker 1: these really extreme, like, S & M, mummification, these extreme,

408
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:03,100
Speaker 1: you know, fantasies that they, you know, their thinking was

409
00:23:03,140 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: that this, you know, was one of those fantasies coming

410
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,609
Speaker 1: to life, the thrill of having sex and killing someone.

411
00:23:10,660 --> 00:23:12,129
Speaker 5: It's horrific to think about.

412
00:23:12,590 --> 00:23:15,850
Speaker 6: But you could see it in Jeffrey, like that sort

413
00:23:15,890 --> 00:23:19,310
Speaker 6: of cold, calculating thing of, what would it be like

414
00:23:19,350 --> 00:23:21,850
Speaker 6: to kill someone? And maybe this is the way I

415
00:23:21,890 --> 00:23:27,710
Speaker 6: can do it. And I think that that's quite possible. Especially,

416
00:23:27,730 --> 00:23:31,470
Speaker 6: I mean, we're not really, Ren and I aren't necessarily

417
00:23:31,570 --> 00:23:36,530
Speaker 6: true crime filmmakers, but we did make another true crime

418
00:23:36,590 --> 00:23:40,420
Speaker 6: documentary called Party Monster. which was actually also about a

419
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:46,470
Speaker 6: drug-fueled homicide, murder. Michael Ehrlich, this club kid, killed his

420
00:23:46,710 --> 00:23:50,390
Speaker 6: drug dealer with another person, actually. Actually, there were three

421
00:23:50,450 --> 00:23:53,770
Speaker 6: people in the room who killed Angel, that drug dealer.

422
00:23:54,510 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 6: And there is this same sense of, like, they say

423
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,020
Speaker 6: the drugs. They use the drugs almost as an excuse.

424
00:24:03,100 --> 00:24:04,940
Speaker 6: You know, we were all out of it on drugs.

425
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,030
Speaker 6: But underlying it, I think with Michael a league, for example,

426
00:24:10,109 --> 00:24:14,510
Speaker 6: there was a, a dark side and a desire or

427
00:24:14,530 --> 00:24:19,100
Speaker 6: a drawn to like, you know, like he liked to

428
00:24:19,140 --> 00:24:22,959
Speaker 6: watch faces of death and video things like that. And

429
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 6: I think I, I do see some similarities with, with

430
00:24:27,180 --> 00:24:32,490
Speaker 6: Jeffrey in this scenario of being, I don't think it's incredulous.

431
00:24:32,770 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 6: I don't think it's unbelievable that Jeffrey wouldn't, harbor this

432
00:24:36,990 --> 00:24:38,700
Speaker 6: desire to do such a thing.

433
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 3: You guys really think Jeff did it, right?

434
00:24:41,859 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 4: I do.

435
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,580
Speaker 6: And I think Joey, Randy and I do say this,

436
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,260
Speaker 6: there's a little daylight between us, but I think Jeff

437
00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 6: did it and Joey was his accomplice.

438
00:24:50,540 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 4: Witting, unwitting, not entirely sure. Yeah.

439
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,659
Speaker 2: Like you said, it's not, it's okay that Joey's in

440
00:24:56,700 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 2: jail for the rest of his life, but also you

441
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,100
Speaker 2: kind of think that Jeff had the knife.

442
00:25:01,510 --> 00:25:04,350
Speaker 4: You think the mastermind should be the one who's behind Joe.

443
00:25:04,750 --> 00:25:04,990
Speaker 3: Yeah.

444
00:25:05,030 --> 00:25:05,190
Speaker 2: Yeah.

445
00:25:05,700 --> 00:25:07,380
Speaker 4: Randy. Randy.

446
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:14,469
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think he's more responsible for it, Jeffrey. And

447
00:25:14,570 --> 00:25:21,409
Speaker 1: certainly the sort of cleanup part, I think he thought

448
00:25:21,450 --> 00:25:26,929
Speaker 1: of that or at least equally orchestrated and planned it.

449
00:25:27,450 --> 00:25:32,619
Speaker 1: Because it seems very, you know, It just seems in

450
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,540
Speaker 1: character with his mummification and just thinking about how to

451
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 1: deal with it.

452
00:25:39,420 --> 00:25:42,889
Speaker 2: You know, I tried to separate when I was watching it.

453
00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:46,820
Speaker 2: Lots of people have fantasies. Lots of people have kinky fantasies.

454
00:25:47,460 --> 00:25:52,470
Speaker 2: That doesn't make lots of people murderers, right? There's a

455
00:25:52,490 --> 00:25:57,770
Speaker 2: big difference. But it was so graphic. They showed the

456
00:25:57,850 --> 00:26:01,500
Speaker 2: sex to the jury. And which I thought was, I

457
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,379
Speaker 2: don't know. What did you guys think of that actually?

458
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,340
Speaker 2: Did you think that that was fair game or solicitous?

459
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 1: We thought that it was important to show to the

460
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: jury and to show it in the film.

461
00:26:14,020 --> 00:26:19,900
Speaker 5: Because it was, it was the exam. Here is this

462
00:26:20,010 --> 00:26:22,530
Speaker 5: guy claiming he's terrified.

463
00:26:23,290 --> 00:26:28,130
Speaker 1: His defense is that he didn't come forward because he was.

464
00:26:28,130 --> 00:26:32,100
Speaker 5: Terrified by this, by, By Joey.

465
00:26:32,140 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: And there they are having hardcore sex. And no one

466
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,489
Speaker 1: looks like they're being forced to do anything.

467
00:26:42,970 --> 00:26:43,150
Speaker 3: No.

468
00:26:43,170 --> 00:26:47,290
Speaker 1: And he is penetrating Joey.

469
00:26:48,970 --> 00:26:51,010
Speaker 5: I'm not going to get into the politics of one's

470
00:26:51,030 --> 00:26:52,510
Speaker 5: a top and one's a bottom, whatever.

471
00:26:53,150 --> 00:26:55,670
Speaker 1: But it was just so clear that no one was

472
00:26:55,710 --> 00:26:57,340
Speaker 1: being forced to do what they were doing.

473
00:26:57,380 --> 00:26:57,670
Speaker 3: Yes.

474
00:26:58,950 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: Right.

475
00:26:59,240 --> 00:26:59,820
Speaker 3: That makes sense.

476
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,460
Speaker 1: And it was also pretty, for us, it was like,

477
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,780
Speaker 1: oh my God, you know, here we are down south

478
00:27:06,859 --> 00:27:12,780
Speaker 1: in Louisville and this, you know, courthouse, they're watching this tape.

479
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 5: I mean, it was kind of an extraordinary thing.

480
00:27:15,460 --> 00:27:18,140
Speaker 3: It certainly was. I felt uncomfortable.

481
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:19,060
Speaker 4: It was.

482
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 6: Actually, that was one of the hardest things to edit

483
00:27:22,100 --> 00:27:24,460
Speaker 6: because it was like Renny and I went back and

484
00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:27,260
Speaker 6: forth and we thought about it a fair amount.

485
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,300
Speaker 5: I wanted less of the sex, Fenton.

486
00:27:30,190 --> 00:27:33,470
Speaker 6: Randy wanted less, but I felt if you showed an

487
00:27:33,970 --> 00:27:36,990
Speaker 6: insufficient amount, you don't land it.

488
00:27:37,950 --> 00:27:39,410
Speaker 4: You want the audience.

489
00:27:39,130 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 6: To feel as uncomfortable as the jury must've felt. Like,

490
00:27:43,060 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 6: otherwise there's no point in, in sharing the moment.

491
00:27:46,340 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. I, as a viewer, I think I would have

492
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 2: preferred less, but also I think it's important that I

493
00:27:55,780 --> 00:27:56,260
Speaker 2: saw more.

494
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 3: So I'm kind of, I'm kind of with both of you.

495
00:27:59,050 --> 00:27:59,609
Speaker 5: Good answer.

496
00:27:59,650 --> 00:28:00,810
Speaker 4: Good answer. Exactly.

497
00:28:00,850 --> 00:28:03,450
Speaker 2: No, I just think, and the sex in and of

498
00:28:03,510 --> 00:28:09,110
Speaker 2: itself was, for me at least, it was scary. It wasn't,

499
00:28:09,230 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 2: it didn't feel like, you know, I'm all for whatever

500
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 2: turns you on.

501
00:28:13,940 --> 00:28:18,260
Speaker 3: But there was a feeling of violence in it. And

502
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 3: that was real. Do you know what I mean? It

503
00:28:20,500 --> 00:28:24,010
Speaker 3: didn't feel just like role playing or like fantasy. It

504
00:28:24,070 --> 00:28:25,450
Speaker 3: felt like scary.

505
00:28:25,470 --> 00:28:25,610
Speaker 1: Scary.

506
00:28:26,050 --> 00:28:26,330
Speaker 3: You know?

507
00:28:27,350 --> 00:28:28,350
Speaker 4: Yes, I think that's true.

508
00:28:28,410 --> 00:28:33,690
Speaker 1: Jeffrey seemed to be like the ringleader. Like he was

509
00:28:33,770 --> 00:28:35,949
Speaker 1: the one who was most verbal.

510
00:28:35,970 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

511
00:28:37,460 --> 00:28:38,740
Speaker 5: He seemed to be in charge.

512
00:28:39,100 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

513
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, he did.

514
00:28:40,460 --> 00:28:43,979
Speaker 2: I don't want to not talk about Jamie. I want

515
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,900
Speaker 2: to make sure we talk about him. And I was

516
00:28:47,940 --> 00:28:52,830
Speaker 2: really touched by the stories about him and the people

517
00:28:52,870 --> 00:28:54,990
Speaker 2: that loved him. I was really happy that you guys...

518
00:28:55,590 --> 00:29:01,550
Speaker 2: included that kind of, you know, information background. Uh, I

519
00:29:01,590 --> 00:29:04,430
Speaker 2: feel like it was just, I hate when that kind

520
00:29:04,470 --> 00:29:06,610
Speaker 2: of stuff is not done, right. When the victims, when

521
00:29:06,630 --> 00:29:09,130
Speaker 2: you don't get to really get to know the victims.

522
00:29:09,310 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 2: So I appreciate, always appreciate when that's done. Um, and

523
00:29:14,580 --> 00:29:18,340
Speaker 2: he just, he seemed like a confused guy and a

524
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 2: drug addict, but he was so beloved, right. Not just

525
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,310
Speaker 2: by his customers, by his friends. You know, he just

526
00:29:26,390 --> 00:29:29,940
Speaker 2: seemed like a charismatic, special guy.

527
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 4: Yes. And a vulnerable guy.

528
00:29:32,620 --> 00:29:33,180
Speaker 5: Yeah.

529
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,350
Speaker 6: Clearly really talented. Could do the hair and the makeup.

530
00:29:38,050 --> 00:29:40,810
Speaker 6: A great drag queen, but also a brilliant hairdresser.

531
00:29:40,830 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 4: Right. And obviously a very giving and generous person.

532
00:29:43,580 --> 00:29:46,860
Speaker 6: And I think the story of him being beaten up

533
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,719
Speaker 6: by his dad, you know, and almost dying.

534
00:29:50,020 --> 00:29:50,300
Speaker 3: Yeah.

535
00:29:50,380 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 6: It's just so heartbreaking because in a way it establishes

536
00:29:54,980 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 6: a pattern in his life that he's not going to

537
00:29:57,380 --> 00:29:58,580
Speaker 6: be loved and respected.

538
00:29:58,600 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

539
00:29:58,840 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

540
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:05,710
Speaker 6: He's a vulnerable soul and, and that's, that's so, that is.

541
00:30:05,690 --> 00:30:08,590
Speaker 4: So heartbreaking that, that, you know, for.

542
00:30:08,550 --> 00:30:14,180
Speaker 6: All his talents and kindness, he is someone who's going

543
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:15,860
Speaker 6: to end up in harm's.

544
00:30:15,540 --> 00:30:18,180
Speaker 4: Way or be exploited by people.

545
00:30:18,740 --> 00:30:21,900
Speaker 6: And because I do think that for all of Joey's faults,

546
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 6: I don't think Joey is a cold blooded killer. I

547
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,250
Speaker 6: think he's a bad boy and, breaks laws and does

548
00:30:30,290 --> 00:30:33,350
Speaker 6: illegal things. I don't think he's a, I still think

549
00:30:33,410 --> 00:30:37,410
Speaker 6: it's really in him. Joey, I think was very, is

550
00:30:37,470 --> 00:30:40,250
Speaker 6: not lying when he says that he and Jamie were

551
00:30:40,290 --> 00:30:41,570
Speaker 6: friends and there.

552
00:30:41,210 --> 00:30:44,780
Speaker 4: Was a spark of warmth between them. But I think

553
00:30:44,860 --> 00:30:46,860
Speaker 4: that's what Jeffrey was jealous of.

554
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: And the, the, the other really tragic thing about Jamie, um,

555
00:30:54,670 --> 00:30:57,540
Speaker 1: By the way, making the film, it was great getting

556
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,500
Speaker 1: to discover Jamie because we knew so little about him.

557
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: And so we actually went there and like, you know,

558
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,820
Speaker 1: even finding the beauty parlor or the, you know, his

559
00:31:09,900 --> 00:31:12,530
Speaker 1: old teacher from the beauty school, that was just like

560
00:31:13,230 --> 00:31:16,150
Speaker 1: live knocking on doors and then asking the women in

561
00:31:16,210 --> 00:31:16,910
Speaker 1: the beauty parlor.

562
00:31:16,930 --> 00:31:19,330
Speaker 5: And then they were like, oh my God is, you know, the,

563
00:31:19,980 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 5: his ex teacher lives right up the street and they

564
00:31:23,060 --> 00:31:24,580
Speaker 5: called and brought her down.

565
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: It was like, it was really great getting to, to

566
00:31:30,500 --> 00:31:35,310
Speaker 1: know them, these characters, but getting to know him through that.

567
00:31:35,330 --> 00:31:35,810
Speaker 4: Yeah.

568
00:31:36,110 --> 00:31:36,450
Speaker 7: Yeah.

569
00:31:37,010 --> 00:31:40,630
Speaker 3: It was great as a viewer too. I really enjoyed that.

570
00:31:40,710 --> 00:31:43,790
Speaker 1: And what you kind of learn about him and what is,

571
00:31:44,370 --> 00:31:48,660
Speaker 1: he was so close to, to kind of surviving beyond

572
00:31:48,740 --> 00:31:53,180
Speaker 1: his circumstances. Like he was self-made and.

573
00:31:53,340 --> 00:31:54,980
Speaker 5: Was trying to escape.

574
00:31:55,540 --> 00:32:00,550
Speaker 1: And, you know, sadly, you know, you can't beat drugs,

575
00:32:00,770 --> 00:32:06,250
Speaker 1: you know, it's like he got sucked into the drugs and,

576
00:32:08,670 --> 00:32:10,650
Speaker 1: you know, one way or another, like, I don't know

577
00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:11,490
Speaker 1: if it would have.

578
00:32:11,570 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 5: Ended, had a happy ending.

579
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,590
Speaker 1: Cause it seemed like he really was, deeply addicted, but

580
00:32:17,910 --> 00:32:20,130
Speaker 1: too bad because he seemed like such a great guy.

581
00:32:20,150 --> 00:32:20,690
Speaker 1: It is.

582
00:32:20,790 --> 00:32:21,220
Speaker 3: It was too bad.

583
00:32:21,230 --> 00:32:23,250
Speaker 2: You know, you had the other character, and I'm going

584
00:32:23,270 --> 00:32:25,270
Speaker 2: to forget his name. He was there with his mom.

585
00:32:25,290 --> 00:32:28,470
Speaker 2: They used to do drugs together, and he's been sober

586
00:32:28,490 --> 00:32:29,010
Speaker 2: for a while.

587
00:32:29,030 --> 00:32:31,190
Speaker 3: Do you guys, what is his name?

588
00:32:31,590 --> 00:32:32,310
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know.

589
00:32:32,370 --> 00:32:37,030
Speaker 4: Like, for some reason, everybody's name begins with J. I know.

590
00:32:37,330 --> 00:32:38,010
Speaker 5: I know.

591
00:32:38,270 --> 00:32:39,470
Speaker 4: Joey, Jamie, Jeff.

592
00:32:39,630 --> 00:32:39,830
Speaker 6: Yes.

593
00:32:40,890 --> 00:32:43,350
Speaker 3: But he's somebody who I thought he was such a warm.

594
00:32:44,290 --> 00:32:47,300
Speaker 5: Oh, my God. And that interview was so intense.

595
00:32:47,430 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: So was the mother also, the mother saying, you know,

596
00:32:51,220 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 2: I wasn't, something to the effect that she wasn't a

597
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:54,820
Speaker 2: good mother. And he was like, no, no, no, you

598
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,100
Speaker 2: were a fun mother. I guess they partied together. And

599
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,410
Speaker 2: it's given a lot of grace to your mother, right?

600
00:33:00,450 --> 00:33:01,630
Speaker 3: He seemed like a. Yes.

601
00:33:02,030 --> 00:33:06,630
Speaker 1: He was sober and his mom was fighting to be sober.

602
00:33:06,650 --> 00:33:09,530
Speaker 5: Like she was in that, when we did that interview.

603
00:33:09,570 --> 00:33:12,850
Speaker 1: Imagine. He got there early with his son and we,

604
00:33:13,010 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: you know, they were both sweet people, but she was

605
00:33:16,740 --> 00:33:21,940
Speaker 1: still struggling a little bit. And since we made the film,

606
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: she passed away.

607
00:33:24,540 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 4: No.

608
00:33:25,580 --> 00:33:28,790
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so sad. That's so sad. I'm so sorry

609
00:33:28,810 --> 00:33:31,950
Speaker 2: to hear that. I loved watching the two of them together.

610
00:33:32,190 --> 00:33:34,450
Speaker 5: They were amazing. They were amazing.

611
00:33:48,730 --> 00:33:49,990
Speaker 3: Let's talk about Louisville.

612
00:33:50,530 --> 00:33:56,850
Speaker 2: I mean, you juxtaposed all of this, this nightmare with

613
00:33:57,170 --> 00:34:02,410
Speaker 2: this fabulousness that is Halloween or whatever the night was

614
00:34:02,430 --> 00:34:08,490
Speaker 2: in Louisville with everybody dressed up and, uh, their skits

615
00:34:08,610 --> 00:34:09,210
Speaker 2: and their.

616
00:34:09,290 --> 00:34:11,739
Speaker 3: Act, you know, all the actors and the wannabe actors

617
00:34:11,820 --> 00:34:12,299
Speaker 3: are out.

618
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: And I thought that was, um, I thought that was

619
00:34:16,140 --> 00:34:19,060
Speaker 2: so cool because it For me as a viewer, it

620
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 2: gave me a break, right?

621
00:34:20,780 --> 00:34:21,739
Speaker 4: Yes, it gives you a break.

622
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,730
Speaker 6: But also, you've got, I mean, this old Louisville is

623
00:34:25,750 --> 00:34:30,810
Speaker 6: this extraordinary bubble inside Louisville. And Louisville itself is this

624
00:34:30,850 --> 00:34:33,950
Speaker 6: kind of hollowed out, kind of desolate place.

625
00:34:34,170 --> 00:34:35,810
Speaker 5: I mean, some of it.

626
00:34:37,450 --> 00:34:40,230
Speaker 4: It feels like The Walking Dead a little bit.

627
00:34:40,469 --> 00:34:42,870
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'm not looking to visit anytime soon.

628
00:34:43,469 --> 00:34:46,250
Speaker 6: But the little, you know, the little, the strip, the

629
00:34:46,290 --> 00:34:50,430
Speaker 6: Victorian strip of Old Louisville is gorgeous, just so beautiful.

630
00:34:50,450 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, the homes are beautiful.

631
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 4: And it's that contrast that was pretty extraordinary.

632
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:02,739
Speaker 1: And it's also, you know, they claim it's one of

633
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,940
Speaker 1: the spookiest towns in America.

634
00:35:05,980 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 5: And there are all these amazing ghost stories. And David Domine,

635
00:35:10,660 --> 00:35:13,850
Speaker 5: who wrote the book, He was cool. Yeah.

636
00:35:13,870 --> 00:35:18,739
Speaker 1: He does these ghost tours and all that's real. And,

637
00:35:19,020 --> 00:35:23,100
Speaker 1: and so, and, you know, where they have done these

638
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: ghost tours in the area where, you know, the spirits

639
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,540
Speaker 1: are thought to be, you know, the house where Jamie

640
00:35:33,620 --> 00:35:36,980
Speaker 1: is killed is, is in that area. And it has

641
00:35:37,020 --> 00:35:42,649
Speaker 1: this incredible history and, and rich history of, dead bodies.

642
00:35:42,810 --> 00:35:45,030
Speaker 2: Do you all believe in that? Do you guys believe

643
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 2: in ghosts? Especially after having been there?

644
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,779
Speaker 4: Well, I think it was.

645
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,439
Speaker 6: This isn't really answering the question, but I think that

646
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 6: when you think about it, a lot of ghost stories

647
00:35:57,900 --> 00:36:00,419
Speaker 6: are basically gruesome murders, right?

648
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 4: Someone gets murdered hundreds of years ago and haunts the place.

649
00:36:04,180 --> 00:36:06,780
Speaker 6: And in a way, this whole story is like the

650
00:36:06,860 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 6: making of a modern ghost story.

651
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:15,330
Speaker 4: And I thought I personally.

652
00:36:14,510 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 6: Have to say I don't, but I hate to say

653
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 6: that in case the next thing I know it's clanking

654
00:36:20,420 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 6: chains and some ghastly.

655
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 4: You know, I don't, but I'm like, I don't either.

656
00:36:25,020 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 5: So terrified.

657
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 4: I might run into a ghost, you know?

658
00:36:28,260 --> 00:36:29,819
Speaker 3: Oh, you think they're going to, but they're coming for

659
00:36:29,860 --> 00:36:31,299
Speaker 3: you now. They're, they're coming for you.

660
00:36:31,340 --> 00:36:32,819
Speaker 4: I don't want to tempt fate. It's like, I don't

661
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:33,060
Speaker 4: want to.

662
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:34,620
Speaker 5: They're listening.

663
00:36:35,100 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 3: Randy, do you believe in ghosts? Um, you're scared too.

664
00:36:40,739 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 3: We're all scared.

665
00:36:41,820 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 4: We're scared to say no, right?

666
00:36:43,380 --> 00:36:44,340
Speaker 5: Maybe a little bit.

667
00:36:44,620 --> 00:36:44,700
Speaker 3: Yeah.

668
00:36:44,739 --> 00:36:46,340
Speaker 4: You're keeping your options open.

669
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,900
Speaker 3: The thing about the ghosts that always occurs to me

670
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,860
Speaker 3: is that even if they're real, they're not really bothering anyone.

671
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,259
Speaker 2: You don't hear about the hurt, like physically hurting. They're

672
00:36:55,300 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 2: just whatever. They're clinking around and clanking around.

673
00:36:59,820 --> 00:37:00,340
Speaker 4: I don't know.

674
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,609
Speaker 6: Well, the ones in Poltergeist and The Exorcist don't seem

675
00:37:03,690 --> 00:37:06,430
Speaker 6: so nice. You kind of don't want them in your bedroom.

676
00:37:06,489 --> 00:37:08,450
Speaker 3: No, I don't want any of them in my bedroom.

677
00:37:08,469 --> 00:37:12,810
Speaker 1: But the ones in Louisville are tickling them and, you know,

678
00:37:13,969 --> 00:37:15,620
Speaker 1: meowing like cats and crazy stuff.

679
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:17,140
Speaker 5: Actually, this house was built in 1927, 26. And Tia,

680
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:17,540
Speaker 5: who comes here.

681
00:37:17,580 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 4: The house you're in, that you're sitting in? Yeah, yeah.

682
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 6: And she comes in and she says she hears people

683
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 6: walking around.

684
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:31,780
Speaker 4: She hears things.

685
00:37:31,900 --> 00:37:34,850
Speaker 6: And maybe it's possible that she hears things and I'm like,

686
00:37:34,950 --> 00:37:37,710
Speaker 6: I don't hear them. She hears doors closing. And this

687
00:37:37,890 --> 00:37:41,549
Speaker 6: actual room I'm in, in the house, used to be...

688
00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:46,030
Speaker 6: It's where they would put the... When someone died, they'd

689
00:37:46,070 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 6: lay out the body and have the wake around the body.

690
00:37:49,180 --> 00:37:51,620
Speaker 4: It was built for that purpose. So.

691
00:37:52,820 --> 00:37:54,819
Speaker 6: But if they are here.

692
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 4: They seem very friendly.

693
00:37:57,060 --> 00:38:01,589
Speaker 3: I'm not interested in you, Fenton. I'm sorry to tell you. Yeah,

694
00:38:02,190 --> 00:38:03,370
Speaker 3: you're okay with that.

695
00:38:03,810 --> 00:38:07,670
Speaker 4: You're okay with that, yeah. You know, the ghost is really,

696
00:38:07,750 --> 00:38:11,450
Speaker 4: to me, the ghost is really Jeffrey. You know, he's

697
00:38:11,510 --> 00:38:14,980
Speaker 4: more like a ghost. Like, where is he? What's he doing?

698
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,779
Speaker 2: Do you guys, I always wonder this about documentarians. I

699
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,060
Speaker 2: know you don't necessarily think of yourselves as true crime documentarians,

700
00:38:21,100 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 2: but you have done two very big ones, so.

701
00:38:23,670 --> 00:38:24,890
Speaker 3: I'm sorry to let you know that you.

702
00:38:24,810 --> 00:38:28,339
Speaker 4: Sort of are. And we're doing a few more, too. Oh, wow.

703
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,140
Speaker 3: So you can't really hide from it, you guys. No,

704
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,660
Speaker 3: you've got to own it. Do you get nervous?

705
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,980
Speaker 2: Because I sometimes think to myself, like, I don't know,

706
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 2: poking the bear here. You know, there are a lot

707
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 2: of crazies out there.

708
00:38:39,300 --> 00:38:43,730
Speaker 5: We got, this project we were very nervous about. I mean,

709
00:38:43,750 --> 00:38:44,910
Speaker 5: we still are a little.

710
00:38:44,930 --> 00:38:46,270
Speaker 3: You faced your fear.

711
00:38:47,050 --> 00:38:51,210
Speaker 1: After we finished it, we did get more information on

712
00:38:51,270 --> 00:38:52,299
Speaker 1: where he was.

713
00:38:53,850 --> 00:39:00,299
Speaker 5: And thankfully, it was after we finished it. He was close. No,

714
00:39:00,340 --> 00:39:02,550
Speaker 5: because had we, like, I don't know.

715
00:39:02,570 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: I just, you know, I don't think that we didn't

716
00:39:10,260 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 1: need to have him in there. And I mean, he's

717
00:39:13,500 --> 00:39:14,620
Speaker 1: obviously seen it.

718
00:39:15,260 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 4: Jennifer, years ago, we made a film about Hitler.

719
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:25,589
Speaker 6: And it was about, based on this book, the pink furor, um,

720
00:39:26,530 --> 00:39:29,090
Speaker 6: which was about the idea that Hitler was gay. And

721
00:39:29,610 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 6: we went to Germany, and we.

722
00:39:31,580 --> 00:39:35,430
Speaker 4: Were filming in Germany, and that was a creepy experience.

723
00:39:35,910 --> 00:39:38,370
Speaker 6: We started getting calls at the hotels as we were

724
00:39:38,410 --> 00:39:42,069
Speaker 6: driving around Germany making this documentary, like, who are you?

725
00:39:42,130 --> 00:39:45,379
Speaker 4: What are you doing? And that was a little... That was...

726
00:39:46,610 --> 00:39:47,810
Speaker 4: That was a little unsatisfying.

727
00:39:47,830 --> 00:39:50,330
Speaker 3: I bet it was. The Pink Fuhrer, I haven't heard

728
00:39:50,350 --> 00:39:51,950
Speaker 3: of it and I'm going to watch it. I'm very

729
00:39:51,989 --> 00:39:52,649
Speaker 3: interested in that.

730
00:39:52,870 --> 00:39:53,830
Speaker 7: Yeah, I am.

731
00:39:53,850 --> 00:39:56,310
Speaker 6: I don't think anybody wants Hitler to be gay. I mean,

732
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 6: we're gay, but we don't, it's not like he's a

733
00:39:59,780 --> 00:40:00,029
Speaker 6: role model.

734
00:40:00,050 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 3: You don't want to claim him, I understand.

735
00:40:01,700 --> 00:40:02,660
Speaker 4: No, right, exactly.

736
00:40:02,700 --> 00:40:03,820
Speaker 3: Yes, nobody would.

737
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 2: So you guys describe this, I'm told, as a queer

738
00:40:08,340 --> 00:40:09,220
Speaker 2: true crime story.

739
00:40:10,340 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: Yes.

740
00:40:11,020 --> 00:40:14,500
Speaker 2: So tell me a little bit about, you know, making

741
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:19,830
Speaker 2: this through a queer lens. So how does a traditional,

742
00:40:20,430 --> 00:40:22,589
Speaker 2: how did you, do you feel like doing it through

743
00:40:22,610 --> 00:40:25,230
Speaker 2: that lens, you got, you were able to capture something

744
00:40:25,250 --> 00:40:30,110
Speaker 2: that a true crime doc wouldn't have otherwise?

745
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,919
Speaker 1: Well, I think, I think partially we come in with

746
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:39,839
Speaker 1: kind of a certain kind of empathy because like the

747
00:40:39,940 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: crime is important to us, but also all of the characters.

748
00:40:44,060 --> 00:40:45,030
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

749
00:40:45,620 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 1: The victims and the perpetrators. I mean, we're really trying

750
00:40:50,380 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 1: to understand. And that, that I think comes from a

751
00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:57,770
Speaker 1: queer sensibility because we know what it's like to grow

752
00:40:57,930 --> 00:41:03,089
Speaker 1: up and, and not necessarily be victimized, but, you know,

753
00:41:03,410 --> 00:41:06,270
Speaker 1: with the B yeah. So I think we come in

754
00:41:06,350 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 1: with a slightly different perspective. And then I also think,

755
00:41:12,620 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: you know, for us, part of this story is also

756
00:41:16,180 --> 00:41:20,700
Speaker 1: about the crystal meth epidemic. And that's an epidemic that

757
00:41:21,060 --> 00:41:26,500
Speaker 1: actually in that area, it's not exclusively epidemic within the

758
00:41:26,540 --> 00:41:30,330
Speaker 1: gay community, but for a long time, it was really,

759
00:41:30,570 --> 00:41:38,049
Speaker 1: it was, yeah, it kind of was. And, and it it's, it's,

760
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: It was surprising to me that there was as many

761
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:43,460
Speaker 1: people still doing it.

762
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:45,739
Speaker 2: So while you were there, while you were filming, there

763
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 2: were people that was around?

764
00:41:48,020 --> 00:41:50,660
Speaker 5: There were stories of people doing it, yes.

765
00:41:51,420 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 7: Okay.

766
00:41:52,219 --> 00:41:55,740
Speaker 1: And it felt like– and it is everywhere, I guess.

767
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,610
Speaker 1: Not as much as it was, I think, 10 or

768
00:41:58,610 --> 00:42:06,150
Speaker 1: 15 years ago. But it's– so just including– information about

769
00:42:06,250 --> 00:42:09,810
Speaker 1: crystal meth and, and what it can lead to was

770
00:42:10,910 --> 00:42:11,650
Speaker 1: important to us.

771
00:42:11,690 --> 00:42:11,950
Speaker 4: Yeah.

772
00:42:12,270 --> 00:42:13,450
Speaker 3: It's interesting. What do they say?

773
00:42:13,489 --> 00:42:15,410
Speaker 2: It was, it was like the glitter ball, right? It

774
00:42:15,450 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 2: was almost like raining crystal meth. There was so much

775
00:42:19,420 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 2: of it.

776
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 6: I mean, it was like, it was like a, it

777
00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:25,860
Speaker 6: was such a big business and Louisville was such a

778
00:42:25,980 --> 00:42:31,219
Speaker 6: well-placed sort of stop for the, for the drugs highway,

779
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,890
Speaker 6: if you will, you know, And Crystal definitely has been

780
00:42:34,930 --> 00:42:40,290
Speaker 6: a devastating epidemic. As Randy says, you know, a lot

781
00:42:40,330 --> 00:42:43,530
Speaker 6: in the gay community and also now spreading out wider.

782
00:42:45,710 --> 00:42:51,420
Speaker 6: And I think as queer filmmakers, we weren't bringing really

783
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,660
Speaker 6: a lot of judgment to the characters. And I think

784
00:42:54,700 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 6: that the story has been told in different ways before us.

785
00:43:00,250 --> 00:43:06,450
Speaker 6: but always it seemed to lean into the sensationalism of like, oh, gross,

786
00:43:06,890 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 6: you know, sort of gross out tabloidy thing, as opposed

787
00:43:12,420 --> 00:43:16,420
Speaker 6: to saying, yeah, this is a gay, this is a

788
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 6: queer story, and this is what queer people do.

789
00:43:19,020 --> 00:43:20,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that, yeah.

790
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 4: You know, it's not about judging that.

791
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, again, these colorful humans, a lot of

792
00:43:28,219 --> 00:43:32,850
Speaker 2: them seem sad, A lot of them, I felt, I

793
00:43:32,890 --> 00:43:36,330
Speaker 2: don't know, I felt like maybe they were sad and

794
00:43:37,630 --> 00:43:40,710
Speaker 2: didn't seem like there was a lot of resources. And

795
00:43:40,810 --> 00:43:43,330
Speaker 2: I could be wrong. These are just the feelings that

796
00:43:43,350 --> 00:43:48,970
Speaker 2: I got. And yet there was this warmth that radiated

797
00:43:49,010 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 2: from almost all of them.

798
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:52,420
Speaker 3: You know, they're really invested in the story.

799
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,890
Speaker 2: And something endearing about these characters, right? And I.

800
00:43:59,620 --> 00:44:02,609
Speaker 2: Was taken very taken by that. And then again, that

801
00:44:03,410 --> 00:44:08,170
Speaker 2: juxtaposed against Jeffrey and, uh, Joey.

802
00:44:08,230 --> 00:44:12,030
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, but it was touching. It was really touching.

803
00:44:12,070 --> 00:44:13,890
Speaker 2: I found so much of this to be, and then

804
00:44:14,070 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 2: so much of it to be horrific and so scary

805
00:44:17,460 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 2: and upsetting.

806
00:44:18,860 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 6: Well, you know, when we, when we went to Jamie

807
00:44:22,540 --> 00:44:27,819
Speaker 6: Carroll's where he's buried, we first had to go to the, uh,

808
00:44:28,469 --> 00:44:32,830
Speaker 6: church or the mortuary where we found the mortician and

809
00:44:33,090 --> 00:44:36,069
Speaker 6: they gave us the directions to find the grave. And

810
00:44:36,090 --> 00:44:38,380
Speaker 6: the grave isn't in a graveyard. It's literally in a

811
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 6: small plot of land beside a house. And the, and the,

812
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,580
Speaker 6: and the guy told us, he said, be careful when

813
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:45,500
Speaker 6: you find it, don't get out of the car right away.

814
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 6: Cause there's a very savage dog around. So make sure

815
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:49,609
Speaker 6: it's safe to get out.

816
00:44:49,550 --> 00:44:51,370
Speaker 4: Of the car. So we did that.

817
00:44:51,830 --> 00:44:54,549
Speaker 6: And the first thing we saw was a sign on

818
00:44:54,590 --> 00:44:56,010
Speaker 6: this kind of shack of a house.

819
00:44:56,150 --> 00:44:57,570
Speaker 4: The dog was inside barking.

820
00:44:57,989 --> 00:44:59,529
Speaker 6: And the sign on the check of house said something

821
00:44:59,570 --> 00:45:02,260
Speaker 6: like transsexuals will be shot on site.

822
00:45:03,300 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 4: Like what?

823
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 6: And that, that made us think like, I don't know,

824
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,180
Speaker 6: but we went on and we, we, we, we filmed,

825
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:11,140
Speaker 6: but what the reason.

826
00:45:10,980 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 3: I'm saying, why would he have been buried in a

827
00:45:12,460 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 3: place like that?

828
00:45:13,620 --> 00:45:16,790
Speaker 6: Well, it's like, it's not that piece of, it's like

829
00:45:17,010 --> 00:45:19,129
Speaker 6: you then walk up a little path to a little

830
00:45:19,170 --> 00:45:23,009
Speaker 6: hilltop and there's a separate field, but it, it sort of,

831
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 6: you were aware of a sort of hostility towards queer

832
00:45:28,219 --> 00:45:35,580
Speaker 6: people and almost an assumption that Jamie Carroll, that's reflected.

833
00:45:35,219 --> 00:45:36,180
Speaker 4: To some degree in the media.

834
00:45:36,260 --> 00:45:38,570
Speaker 6: Jamie Carroll was a drug dealer and a drag queen.

835
00:45:38,730 --> 00:45:42,530
Speaker 6: And so in some sense deserved what his fate.

836
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:43,330
Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean?

837
00:45:43,350 --> 00:45:45,629
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you did. Yeah, I guess. I don't know

838
00:45:45,650 --> 00:45:46,780
Speaker 3: how the media has portrayed him.

839
00:45:46,810 --> 00:45:48,669
Speaker 2: I only know what you all, the story that you've told.

840
00:45:48,690 --> 00:45:49,070
Speaker 1: Yeah.

841
00:45:49,130 --> 00:45:50,890
Speaker 3: He definitely didn't lead with drug dealer.

842
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,589
Speaker 6: No, no, and anyway, like, drug dealers don't deserve to die.

843
00:45:55,610 --> 00:45:57,989
Speaker 4: Of course not. Homosexuals don't deserve to die.

844
00:45:58,090 --> 00:45:58,380
Speaker 5: Of course not.

845
00:45:58,410 --> 00:46:01,230
Speaker 4: Transsexuals don't deserve to die. Quite the reverse. And I

846
00:46:01,270 --> 00:46:03,649
Speaker 4: think that that's what, in.

847
00:46:03,590 --> 00:46:08,390
Speaker 6: Such a dark story, there is this, I feel, by

848
00:46:08,410 --> 00:46:12,049
Speaker 6: virtue of being, not virtue, by being queer filmmakers, we

849
00:46:12,070 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 6: were able to keep or bring a certain humanity to

850
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:18,620
Speaker 6: an otherwise really dark story.

851
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:18,739
Speaker 1: Yes.

852
00:46:19,610 --> 00:46:21,930
Speaker 2: I'm happy that I don't travel around with the two

853
00:46:21,950 --> 00:46:22,890
Speaker 2: of you. I think you're nuts.

854
00:46:22,910 --> 00:46:24,450
Speaker 3: I don't know why you would got into that car.

855
00:46:24,469 --> 00:46:25,969
Speaker 3: What are you crazy?

856
00:46:26,230 --> 00:46:26,850
Speaker 5: We did.

857
00:46:26,890 --> 00:46:27,890
Speaker 4: Don't you remember Randy?

858
00:46:27,930 --> 00:46:28,290
Speaker 6: We did.

859
00:46:28,870 --> 00:46:31,169
Speaker 4: We sat in that car a while thinking like, I know.

860
00:46:31,210 --> 00:46:33,210
Speaker 1: Cause then off to the side, there were two dogs

861
00:46:33,290 --> 00:46:34,149
Speaker 1: humping each other.

862
00:46:34,190 --> 00:46:36,810
Speaker 5: Don't you remember? I was like, Oh my God, get

863
00:46:36,830 --> 00:46:37,549
Speaker 5: the camera.

864
00:46:37,590 --> 00:46:39,830
Speaker 3: Go back to RuPaul. What are you two doing? Oh

865
00:46:40,170 --> 00:46:41,230
Speaker 3: my God.

866
00:46:41,250 --> 00:46:45,029
Speaker 6: I mean, it does connect with drag race in the

867
00:46:45,070 --> 00:46:48,330
Speaker 6: sense that, you know, every season of drag race, you, you,

868
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:53,180
Speaker 6: hear stories that these incredibly talented creative artists face a

869
00:46:53,300 --> 00:46:56,740
Speaker 6: lot of discrimination and a lot of challenges to become

870
00:46:56,780 --> 00:46:58,540
Speaker 6: who they are and have a lot of courage.

871
00:46:58,860 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 3: Yes.

872
00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:03,990
Speaker 1: There's another very specific connection because during the making of this,

873
00:47:04,070 --> 00:47:10,430
Speaker 1: which took us over four years, we met a lot

874
00:47:10,450 --> 00:47:14,549
Speaker 1: of drag queens there. We filmed at drag shows. And

875
00:47:14,690 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 1: we followed around three drag queens, and one in particular

876
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: who I was really taken by. She was just amazing.

877
00:47:23,460 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 1: And she was a recovering crystal meth addict. She was

878
00:47:29,860 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: in recovery. She hadn't been high for.

879
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,740
Speaker 5: A long time. And we followed her around.

880
00:47:36,780 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: We actually filmed a lot with her. She's only in

881
00:47:39,980 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: the film like a snippet.

882
00:47:42,860 --> 00:47:44,780
Speaker 5: But during the course of it, at one point.

883
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,180
Speaker 1: You know, she said to me, you know, I was

884
00:47:48,260 --> 00:47:50,950
Speaker 1: thinking about auditioning for Drag Race.

885
00:47:51,550 --> 00:47:53,930
Speaker 5: And I was like, well, if you want to do that,

886
00:47:54,050 --> 00:47:54,850
Speaker 5: you can do that.

887
00:47:54,950 --> 00:47:59,290
Speaker 1: But I, you know, I will need to normally I

888
00:47:59,290 --> 00:48:04,060
Speaker 1: kind of participate in when we're looking at the casting

889
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,180
Speaker 1: tapes and stuff like that. I said, I won't be

890
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 1: able to participate. But I totally encourage you. And without

891
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:17,109
Speaker 1: me ever saying anything to anyone, she got cast. Get out.

892
00:48:17,790 --> 00:48:20,169
Speaker 5: She did really well in the competition.

893
00:48:20,190 --> 00:48:20,350
Speaker 2: Really?

894
00:48:20,370 --> 00:48:22,750
Speaker 5: And people loved her. Her name's Lexi Love.

895
00:48:23,290 --> 00:48:26,410
Speaker 3: Which one? Who was she? Who was she? I can't remember.

896
00:48:27,150 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 1: She's barely in.

897
00:48:28,780 --> 00:48:30,220
Speaker 5: She's like backstage.

898
00:48:30,870 --> 00:48:34,049
Speaker 1: Okay. She makes a joke about how she looks like

899
00:48:34,670 --> 00:48:36,470
Speaker 1: one of the girls in Sex and the City.

900
00:48:36,510 --> 00:48:38,630
Speaker 5: I'm forgetting. But she's barely in it.

901
00:48:38,710 --> 00:48:39,290
Speaker 3: Miranda.

902
00:48:39,790 --> 00:48:40,430
Speaker 5: Miranda.

903
00:48:40,510 --> 00:48:40,970
Speaker 4: Yeah.

904
00:48:41,250 --> 00:48:42,050
Speaker 5: Yeah.

905
00:48:42,530 --> 00:48:46,450
Speaker 1: Anyway, we shot incredible footage with her, but it's like

906
00:48:46,489 --> 00:48:47,470
Speaker 1: for a different film.

907
00:48:47,630 --> 00:48:47,750
Speaker 4: Yeah.

908
00:48:47,770 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: Because she told us so many insane stories about her.

909
00:48:54,300 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 4: Oh, my gosh.

910
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,800
Speaker 1: Crazy stories. We'll probably do something with that at some point.

911
00:48:58,840 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 5: But anyway.

912
00:48:59,920 --> 00:49:04,020
Speaker 1: She went on to become quite, she's now quite a success.

913
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:08,130
Speaker 1: I mean, she was a pretty success, well-known queen in

914
00:49:08,170 --> 00:49:11,990
Speaker 1: that area, but she's now known throughout the country.

915
00:49:12,430 --> 00:49:12,739
Speaker 5: Cool.

916
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:13,859
Speaker 3: Good for her.

917
00:49:14,340 --> 00:49:31,980
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, I wanted to ask you before, just

918
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:36,340
Speaker 2: to skip back for one second. Um, if you had

919
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:41,380
Speaker 2: been able to locate Jeff, And you did have his–

920
00:49:41,950 --> 00:49:44,770
Speaker 2: would you have then interviewed him, do you think, if

921
00:49:44,810 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 2: he had agreed to it?

922
00:49:46,410 --> 00:49:46,629
Speaker 4: Yes.

923
00:49:46,890 --> 00:49:47,129
Speaker 5: Yes.

924
00:49:48,010 --> 00:49:50,460
Speaker 4: We sincerely tried to reach him multiple times.

925
00:49:50,820 --> 00:49:51,140
Speaker 5: Yeah.

926
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 4: And I believe he was aware of that and avoided that.

927
00:49:57,060 --> 00:50:02,740
Speaker 7: Because we found an address and we– outside– yeah, we

928
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:10,100
Speaker 7: found a bunch of things, a bunch of leads, different properties, and–

929
00:50:10,580 --> 00:50:12,380
Speaker 7: We sent FedEx packages.

930
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:14,989
Speaker 3: Oh, my God. I am never getting in a car

931
00:50:15,010 --> 00:50:16,770
Speaker 3: with the two of you. Not that you've invited me.

932
00:50:16,790 --> 00:50:18,370
Speaker 4: No, thanks.

933
00:50:18,410 --> 00:50:20,950
Speaker 5: As long as Ben's not behind the wheel, you're fine.

934
00:50:21,030 --> 00:50:21,370
Speaker 1: Really?

935
00:50:21,390 --> 00:50:24,030
Speaker 4: What is this idea that I'm not a good driver?

936
00:50:24,050 --> 00:50:26,859
Speaker 4: It came up somewhere else the other day.

937
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,100
Speaker 1: All right.

938
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,180
Speaker 3: So let me ask you one more question. Okay.

939
00:50:32,980 --> 00:50:35,219
Speaker 2: What is it about this that sticks with you? I'm

940
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,380
Speaker 2: sure there's so much about it. Maybe that's a silly question,

941
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 2: but is it anything that just kind of keeps you

942
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:40,739
Speaker 2: up at night? Maybe it's the fact that Jeff is

943
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,880
Speaker 2: free or when you look back at this experience in

944
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:48,330
Speaker 2: this story, is it the injustice of it or what is,

945
00:50:48,810 --> 00:50:49,529
Speaker 2: what sticks with you?

946
00:50:49,989 --> 00:50:54,430
Speaker 6: You know, for me, what sticks is that when we

947
00:50:54,450 --> 00:50:56,410
Speaker 6: read the book and it was, the book's called A

948
00:50:56,430 --> 00:50:59,230
Speaker 6: Dark Room in Glittable City, I say, what is Glittable City?

949
00:50:59,489 --> 00:51:02,930
Speaker 6: And the understanding that the disco ball, the mirror ball

950
00:51:02,969 --> 00:51:07,469
Speaker 6: was invented there for a long time was just thinking like,

951
00:51:07,610 --> 00:51:12,549
Speaker 6: how does this tie into the story? And I think

952
00:51:12,590 --> 00:51:14,610
Speaker 6: in some ways it does actually. And that's why we

953
00:51:14,630 --> 00:51:18,230
Speaker 6: ended up putting a, glittable in every single interview if

954
00:51:18,270 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 6: you can spot them that all over the place because

955
00:51:21,340 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 6: the idea is like you know a single beam of

956
00:51:23,980 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 6: light hits this thing and it shatters in all directions

957
00:51:27,500 --> 00:51:30,780
Speaker 6: and that's like this story because you've got one event

958
00:51:31,180 --> 00:51:36,700
Speaker 6: that happens it's one thing happened in that room with

959
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:42,049
Speaker 6: those three people and then you have all these different ideas,

960
00:51:42,110 --> 00:51:45,110
Speaker 6: all these different stories, all these different fragments, some of

961
00:51:45,190 --> 00:51:47,270
Speaker 6: which are more true than others, you know?

962
00:51:47,290 --> 00:51:47,370
Speaker 2: Yeah.

963
00:51:48,010 --> 00:51:51,380
Speaker 6: And it's like sort of trying to piece together the

964
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:58,660
Speaker 6: story from all these shattered glimpses or reflections.

965
00:51:59,020 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 5: Yeah.

966
00:51:59,860 --> 00:52:05,390
Speaker 2: Louisville feels also just glittery in some way, right?

967
00:52:06,190 --> 00:52:06,550
Speaker 4: Yeah.

968
00:52:07,270 --> 00:52:11,370
Speaker 5: I mean, so many times when you see true crime stories... It's.

969
00:52:11,270 --> 00:52:15,529
Speaker 1: The crime and it's that small circle of the crime,

970
00:52:15,690 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 1: the key players just specifically to the crime.

971
00:52:22,820 --> 00:52:25,819
Speaker 5: But I feel like the film we made is about

972
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:26,700
Speaker 5: the community.

973
00:52:27,140 --> 00:52:28,580
Speaker 3: It is, yeah. I agree.

974
00:52:28,900 --> 00:52:30,100
Speaker 5: The way it sort of.

975
00:52:32,860 --> 00:52:36,550
Speaker 1: Echoes out and the impact it has on the community,

976
00:52:36,570 --> 00:52:38,810
Speaker 1: but also just like how.

977
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: By looking at something like this, you can get to

978
00:52:45,300 --> 00:52:50,740
Speaker 1: know a little bit more about the place and the people. And,

979
00:52:51,489 --> 00:52:55,550
Speaker 1: you know, crimes never happen. Even though this crime happened,

980
00:52:56,450 --> 00:52:58,590
Speaker 1: you know, in a room, in a house, and it

981
00:52:58,610 --> 00:53:02,410
Speaker 1: was isolated, it really, it happens in a community. And

982
00:53:02,430 --> 00:53:06,950
Speaker 1: it was really great to get to learn the community

983
00:53:07,030 --> 00:53:09,049
Speaker 1: and create a profile.

984
00:53:08,540 --> 00:53:09,320
Speaker 5: Of the community.

985
00:53:09,340 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, yeah.

986
00:53:11,230 --> 00:53:14,489
Speaker 2: I think that's what I really, yes, I, that's what

987
00:53:14,690 --> 00:53:16,890
Speaker 2: I think struck me. Thank you for putting words to

988
00:53:16,930 --> 00:53:21,460
Speaker 2: it because I, it, the community doesn't take on the

989
00:53:21,500 --> 00:53:24,980
Speaker 2: character that it did normally in, in the crime documentaries

990
00:53:25,020 --> 00:53:30,100
Speaker 2: that I watch this, you gave the community character and

991
00:53:30,620 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 2: it made it also, I think maybe it made the

992
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:39,730
Speaker 2: whole thing more palpable in a way because it's such,

993
00:53:39,810 --> 00:53:40,670
Speaker 2: it was so vicious.

994
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,950
Speaker 3: And scary and, and not pleasant.

995
00:53:46,340 --> 00:53:46,620
Speaker 5: Right.

996
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,330
Speaker 3: But you let us.

997
00:53:49,310 --> 00:53:52,250
Speaker 2: Into sort of the background and, and the community of

998
00:53:52,290 --> 00:53:54,670
Speaker 2: where it happened. And there was, there's so much good there.

999
00:53:54,790 --> 00:53:57,270
Speaker 2: So I thought that was so well done.

1000
00:53:57,290 --> 00:53:57,710
Speaker 6: You guys.

1001
00:53:59,050 --> 00:53:59,590
Speaker 4: Thank you.

1002
00:54:00,150 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 3: You're very welcome. So will you, uh, I don't, what

1003
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 3: is your, what are you working on now? Can you

1004
00:54:05,140 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 3: tell me? You don't have to.

1005
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 6: No, we have a series that hasn't been announced yet, but, uh, Well, actually,

1006
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:12,280
Speaker 6: it kind of has, actually.

1007
00:54:12,300 --> 00:54:15,860
Speaker 1: It has, because we showed a sneak peek at Tribeca

1008
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:16,939
Speaker 1: Film Festival.

1009
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1010
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 6: It's called Not a Very Good Murderer, and it's about

1011
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:26,770
Speaker 6: someone who is not a very good murderer. So in

1012
00:54:26,810 --> 00:54:30,950
Speaker 6: this series, no one actually is murdered.

1013
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:32,580
Speaker 3: Is it true?

1014
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,460
Speaker 4: It's a true crime, but with no murder. Yeah, it's

1015
00:54:35,580 --> 00:54:36,180
Speaker 4: a true story.

1016
00:54:36,950 --> 00:54:43,430
Speaker 1: And we sort of follow Ronan Farrow as he sort

1017
00:54:43,469 --> 00:54:50,330
Speaker 1: of investigates. And it's a really unusual series. It's about

1018
00:54:50,530 --> 00:54:53,049
Speaker 1: their relationship, him and this woman.

1019
00:54:53,070 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 6: Who's a former beauty queen in Arizona.

1020
00:54:56,460 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 4: Okay.

1021
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:03,790
Speaker 6: And he starts off, investigating one story and then quickly

1022
00:55:03,850 --> 00:55:07,910
Speaker 6: realizes that the story he's following is not the story.

1023
00:55:08,469 --> 00:55:09,540
Speaker 4: She is the story.

1024
00:55:09,580 --> 00:55:09,940
Speaker 7: Wow.

1025
00:55:10,420 --> 00:55:10,770
Speaker 1: When is it?

1026
00:55:10,780 --> 00:55:11,900
Speaker 3: Is it out? When's it coming out?

1027
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:13,500
Speaker 5: Next year.

1028
00:55:13,940 --> 00:55:14,300
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1029
00:55:14,460 --> 00:55:15,500
Speaker 3: Will you come back?

1030
00:55:16,340 --> 00:55:20,339
Speaker 4: Oh yes, please. You're so good. It's such an honor

1031
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:21,280
Speaker 4: to be on the show.

1032
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 7: Oh, please.

1033
00:55:22,890 --> 00:55:26,609
Speaker 3: The honor is mine. As you know, I appreciate you

1034
00:55:26,650 --> 00:55:30,739
Speaker 3: so much. All right, guys. Well, well done. Congratulations to

1035
00:55:30,780 --> 00:55:31,270
Speaker 3: you both.

1036
00:55:31,790 --> 00:55:32,670
Speaker 4: Thank you so much.