1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Clearly everything was done under his direction, and so that's 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:11,799 Speaker 1: how you got more than ten crimes under his watch, 3 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: and he was convicted on all of them and now 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: serves one hundred and twenty years in federal prison. 5 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm 6 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 2: Jess Cossavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for 7 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 2: the Devil. The Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series 8 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 2: explored the story of Robert Schinn, the LA based Chakaina 9 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 2: Church in seven M Films. Shin founded LA based Chicaina 10 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: Church over two decades ago before establishing seven M Films 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 2: and is named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and 12 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 2: cult like behavior. 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 3: And I'm Kalia Gray, former member of Chakaina Church and 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 3: seven M Films. In this episode, investigative journalist Sarah Berman, 15 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 3: author of Don't Call It a Cult, The Shocking Story 16 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,040 Speaker 3: of Keith Rinier and The Woman of Nexium, discussed this 17 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 3: is her end depth reporting on Nexium, the controversial group 18 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 3: led by Keith Renier, and her broader work on cult 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 3: like organizations. Sarah shares insights from her early exposure to 20 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 3: cult related investigations, including her coverage of the bountiful polygamous 21 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 3: community in British Columbia and the challenges of exposing harmful high. 22 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 4: Control group dynamics. 23 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 2: Now our conversation with Sarah Burman. Sarah Burman, thank you 24 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 2: for joining us today. I have so many questions for 25 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 2: you having done such a deep dive into NEXIAM, and 26 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 2: I think also using the RICO charges is something that 27 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: I really have a lot of questions about, just because 28 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 2: as you know, there's ongoing investigation, there is an ongoing 29 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 2: lawsuit with Chicaina and Robert and some of the other 30 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 2: leaders in that organization. But excited to explore that a 31 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 2: little bit further, and then talking more about the difficulties 32 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 2: about prosecuting cults in the US and your experience with 33 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 2: that having gone so deep into a nexim amazing. 34 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, And yeah, I'm happy to 35 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,399 Speaker 1: give however much perspective on that stuff that I can, 36 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: because it is, you know, so rare for criminal action 37 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: at least to be taken in cases with groups like this. 38 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's something that we're finding increasingly difficult in 39 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 3: the beginning, and now that we're in the middle. 40 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 4: Of like a legal process. 41 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 3: I am realizing how hard it can be because I'm 42 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 3: getting to hear like the nitty gritty of what we 43 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 3: can try and what we cannot try. 44 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 4: In the courtroom. 45 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 3: And so for me, I'm like, you know, while we're 46 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 3: in the middle of a civil lawsuit, that's one of 47 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 3: my bigger questions is, well, how do we get a 48 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 3: criminal case involved in it? Because it just feels like 49 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 3: there's so much criminal activity to where we're like, this 50 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 3: has to be illegal at some point. So I am 51 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 3: also looking forward to hearing more about your experiences. Let's 52 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 3: kind of take it back to the beginning. Can you 53 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 3: walk us through your initial exposure to cult like groups 54 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 3: and environments, particularly with your twenty sixteen coverage of the 55 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 3: Bountiful polygamous community in British Columbia. 56 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 4: What was that like for you? 57 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: So I went to Bountiful, which is this as you say, 58 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: polygamous community in BC, Canada, back when I was an 59 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: early reporter for ad Vice It was pretty early in 60 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: my career, and we were greeted by these women who 61 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: dressed in prairie dresses. They covered everything to their wrist, 62 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: covered up to their neck, and they greeted us very 63 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: warmly and had a lot of really interesting things to say. 64 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: I know now that they were sort of putting on 65 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,839 Speaker 1: a front. You know, they were protecting their dad, who 66 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: was the leader of this community, Winston Blackmore. They were 67 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: sort of doing some pr for them, but they were 68 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: trying to demonstrate that they were truly free and autonomous 69 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: and really active members in their community. They were active 70 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: on the land trust in the community. They could drink wine. 71 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: They were not the polygamists that I maybe had envisioned 72 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: in my head. 73 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 4: And that was interesting. 74 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: It was persuasive to me in the moment because of course, 75 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: when someone's freely speaking to you and showing you all 76 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: that they do for their own community and how it 77 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: means something to them, and how they get so much 78 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: empowerment from that. 79 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 4: You can't not take that at its face. You know. 80 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: It's really hard to in the background while you're hearing that, 81 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: think what else am I not seeing here? 82 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 4: Right? 83 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: Like what other sort of controls are in place? You know? 84 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: Of course I did have in my mind that there 85 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 1: was a legal case in some parents in this community 86 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: had been convicted of child trafficking, so they had taken 87 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: their thirteen year old across the border to be married 88 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: to Warren Jeff's the now jailed leader of the FLDS. 89 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 4: So I did have that in the back of my 90 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 4: my mind, but. 91 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: It's such a distance from their real lived experience, and 92 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 1: that just got me asking so many questions about, you know, 93 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: how can those two truths exist? How do they personally 94 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: reconcile with those questions? Can they even imagine what an 95 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 1: outsider is seeing and understanding? You know, when they say 96 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: I'm a feminist because I drive the truck around our community, 97 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 1: you know, do they know how that sounds? And like, 98 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: can I, as an outsider understand it too from the 99 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: inside because it's so wild and upside down? Right? So 100 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 1: that was my first cult. You know a lot of 101 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: people do use that. It's pretty accurate in that case. 102 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: And yeah, ever since, I've sort of sought out those 103 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: stories again, just trying to wrestle with those same questions 104 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: about like, what's going on here? 105 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 4: How do they understand it? 106 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: How does this exist in everyone's mind palace. 107 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 3: After the break, we continue our conversation with Sarah. 108 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 4: This is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be 109 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 4: right back. 110 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now 111 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:19,239 Speaker 2: back to our conversation with Sarah Sarah. In your book, 112 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 2: Don't Call It a Cult, you explore the Nextsem case 113 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 2: in detail, what made Nextim different from bout ful other 114 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 2: cult like organizations that you have investigated in the past, 115 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 2: and how did the use of RICO charges play a 116 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 2: role into bringing Keith Rnieri and his associates to justice. 117 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: Nexium was interesting, at least on the surface, it looked 118 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,559 Speaker 1: very different. You didn't have prairie dresses or you didn't 119 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: have shaved head hippies, you didn't have outsiders even right. 120 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 1: You had very well connected actresses who were pillars of 121 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: their own communities, and you know, had idealist sort of 122 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: points of view, wanted to change the world, although that 123 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: is sort of common in cults too, to want to 124 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: change the world. But they were wearing power suits and 125 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: they were talking about business and being self sufficient, and 126 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: so those ideas weren't on the surface very much associated 127 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,679 Speaker 1: with cults. And then, of course, below the surface, Nexium 128 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: is extremely, i guess exceptional in that you had blackmail 129 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: and bondage and branding and trafficking. You know, you had 130 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: a woman trapped in a room for two years under 131 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: extreme threat, and of course child exploitation as well, so 132 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: that is extreme. A lot of cult groups they take money, 133 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: they of course do all sorts of morally abhorrent things, 134 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: but it's not as plain or extreme in the criminal sense. 135 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: So the Racketeering Act in the United States was brought 136 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: in at the time of al Capone and the Mob, 137 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: and basically it's a racketeering enterprise. So you're criminal organization 138 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: committing lots of different crimes, and so the acts sort 139 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: of need to be committed by at least two members individually, 140 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: and it's a way to prosecute a leader, you know, 141 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: say your al Capone type figure, for things that clearly 142 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: were assigned at least that's usually how it goes. And 143 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: so I think a group like Nexium, it's very applicable. 144 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 4: Right, you have a group leader. 145 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: He wasn't necessarily undertaking all of the acts, but clearly 146 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: everything was done under his direction, and so that's how 147 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: you got more than ten crimes under his watch, and 148 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: he was convicted on all of them and now serves 149 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty years in federal prison. But the 150 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 1: trial itself was just six weeks of very detailed evidence, 151 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: and you could tell that this was very hard they 152 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: weren't sure that they were going to land this case 153 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: even though there was just such obvious evidence of exploitation. 154 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 4: You also did have. 155 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: So many people who at the time were very willing 156 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: on record in emails saying I want this, you know, master, 157 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: please brand me right. They filmed these as sort of 158 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: evidence to the contrary. And so when you have folks 159 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: who have had a big change in their understanding right 160 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: like years ago they saw this as good now they 161 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: see it as a crime, that does give the defense 162 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 1: a lot of fuel to sort of poke at their credibility. 163 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: And it's just very embarrassing and shameful for a witness 164 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: to have to go through that on the stand. And 165 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: so prosecutors in general are sort of scared of these 166 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: cases because their witnesses are likely going to be dragged 167 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: through a lot of mud. And so I've seen in 168 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: the cases that I've covered a reluctance to kind of 169 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: take action that way. 170 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 3: Well, absolutely, and I can imagine that makes it really 171 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 3: challenging for the authorities and for the people just trying 172 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 3: to persecute it. Even in our case, there are a 173 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 3: lot of my friends who had left to kinda still 174 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 3: having an issue like coming forward or wanting to take 175 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 3: a stand because of that aspect of being dragged through 176 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 3: the mud and having to retell these accounts where at 177 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 3: the time it seemed one way, but now we are 178 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 3: feeling a completely different way, and also even just like 179 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 3: having a different understanding as far as to the truth 180 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 3: behind what was being told to us in that moment. 181 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 4: Totally, it takes so much bravery. 182 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: You have to really understand your truth, and you know 183 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: that takes a lot of healing, right, and so sometimes 184 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: this takes years to actually come to that understanding, and 185 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: so when police are trying to take action, that might 186 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: not be there for them right away, and so these 187 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: cases kind of get bogged down and delayed, and the 188 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: families who think they have pretty fear of it and 189 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: so say fraud or what have you, they get pretty frustrated, 190 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: pretty disappointed. So in any case like this, it's a tough, 191 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: uphill battle. And then of course you have legal action 192 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: in the opposite way, right you have sometimes a cult 193 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: leader going after their ex members, you know, for defamation 194 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: for speaking out, and that too is silencing. Yeah, it's 195 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: just a really tough time for anyone. 196 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 2: Which has actually been an ongoing fear throughout the process. 197 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: With conversations that we've had with different victims and people 198 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 2: that have left and ex members, it always goes back 199 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 2: to the fear that they will be sued by Robert. 200 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 2: It's something that he's used. It's a power that he 201 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 2: has over people. And similar to what you were saying 202 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 2: with Nexxim, when you have blackmail, coordion, and manipulation, it's 203 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 2: difficult because there is a little bit of when the 204 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: victim becomes the perpetrator. So there's that element, and I 205 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 2: think that there's that processing of deprogramming and healing that 206 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 2: needs to have and when someone leaves a situation and 207 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 2: maybe comes to the understanding that maybe they were a 208 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 2: perpetrator in ways or we're feeding into a negative system. 209 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 2: But then also you have the dangling carrots. We just 210 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,479 Speaker 2: had a gentleman that had left on our last episode 211 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: and he had expressed how he was undocumented. He was 212 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 2: an immigrant to this country and his green card was 213 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 2: something that they were holding over his head and when 214 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 2: they provide him work and shelter and a roof over 215 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 2: his head and food. It's hard to get people to 216 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 2: speak out. It's hard to get people to feel that 217 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 2: they can have any sort of power when that power 218 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 2: is given to a leader, a pastor a manager. So 219 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 2: it was hard to hear these stories and feel that 220 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 2: these people feel powerless. And again, as an outsider, it's 221 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 2: easy for us to say, like, get out there and 222 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 2: go do it, go to the police and share your story. 223 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 4: But when you've lived. 224 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,839 Speaker 2: It and you deal with that trauma, it takes time 225 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 2: and you have to earn that trust, and that needs 226 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 2: to come from them and it can't be coming from 227 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: anybody else except for when they feel ready. 228 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and what you talked about there about the sort 229 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: of I guess wager you have to make between the 230 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: access of course you were given so much in the group. 231 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: I think Chakaina is an interesting example in that regard, 232 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: because people really did get influencer careers, you know, like 233 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: the carrot was real in this case. Often with cults, 234 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: it's pretty fake, you know, none of the next even 235 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: people made millions of dollars, even though that's what the 236 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: executive success programs claimed to do. So yeah, it would 237 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: be even harder to untangle if you really did get 238 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: work and room and bored and the things outweighing that 239 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: are just as bad. 240 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 4: But it's just harder to untangle that not. 241 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 2: When we return the conclusion to our conversation with Sarah, 242 00:13:58,200 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 2: this is forgive me for I have followed. 243 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 4: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. 244 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 3: Here's the conclusion of our conversation with Sarah. Can you 245 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 3: share some more of the personal challenges you faced while 246 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 3: working on the Nixium story, especially balancing the need for 247 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 3: rigorous reporting and then considering the vulnerable aspect of the 248 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 3: survivors you were working with. 249 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: I was honestly learning as I went, you know, and 250 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: some of the things that I was doing at that time, 251 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: I don't know if I would do it again, because, 252 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: as you say, people are healing, they don't necessarily need 253 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: a reporter coming at them. Certainly with Sarah Edmondson, I 254 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: did notice eight months later she had a clearer perspective, 255 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: like she had her thoughts together more, she was less 256 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: in the trauma of it. And I think that space 257 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: for healing is so so important. 258 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 4: I mean, one of. 259 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: The challenges was just that everybody lawyered up and got 260 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: very quiet for a while while the FBI case was unfolding, 261 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: and so often I was seeking out folks who were 262 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: not involved in that at all, you know, who are 263 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: just local to Vancouver, who maybe didn't have as key 264 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: a role in the crimes I guess that were prosecuted, 265 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: and that really gave me more of a sense of Wow, 266 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: this was a you know, very nuanced community, like the 267 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: one to one relationships between you know, the women in 268 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: particular in this group, they were real, which is why 269 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: I sort of avoided the sort of sex cult tabloid 270 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: type approach. You know, I didn't even use in my 271 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: book the words sex cults, just because it's a shorthand 272 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: for an outsider. Yes, and sometimes it's useful, you know, 273 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: like I'm not gonna say sex wasn't part of this group, 274 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: but it just doesn't fully describe, you. 275 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 4: Know, what's going on here. 276 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: What are those bonds between women and of course how 277 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: Keith R. Nieri was exploiting those. So again, just a 278 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: lot of learning as I go. And then when I 279 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: covered a different group called Twin Flames Universe after Nexium, 280 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: I tried to apply some of that learning. But then 281 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: once again you had a cult leader going. 282 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 4: After my sources, trying to sue them. 283 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: Thankfully that case was thrown out, and so now I 284 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: just am trying to inform any of my sources all 285 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: of the possible outcomes right up front, because truly it 286 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: is a threat, like these groups are dangerous and they 287 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: can come after you. 288 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 2: How do you cope with the emotional toll when you're 289 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 2: investigating these heavy topics like twin Flame Universe. Obviously I'd 290 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,119 Speaker 2: watched the documentary Nexium. I'd also watched all the documentary 291 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 2: and did some research on that. How do you cope 292 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 2: with that emotionally? 293 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I'd like to ask you the same question, 294 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: because you know, we're all trying to find out And 295 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: of course, of course I don't want to put my 296 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: experience on the same level as the survivors who have 297 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: been through a truly traumatic experience and they do sort of. 298 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 4: Wear this for the rest of their lives in a 299 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 4: very public way. 300 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: But yeah, I just try to find folks like yourselves 301 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: who have been through this very rare, I think experience, 302 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: and you know, just sort of hash it out and 303 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: try to make adjustments. 304 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 4: Unfortunately, after or maybe. 305 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: Fortunately, I don't know how to look at this, but 306 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: after that Twin Flames documentary, so many people reached out 307 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: to me and said, you know, I see my sister 308 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: in this group. 309 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 4: I see my aunt in this group. 310 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: You know, when I was younger, I was in a 311 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: group and I didn't really think of it as that 312 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: at the time, But now I had this new insight, 313 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: you know, and keep on kicking cults and the teeth 314 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 1: or whatever or they say, you know, like. 315 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 4: It's not a cook. 316 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: But you know, my AA sponsor did some of these 317 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 1: things to me, you know, so so kind of dark. 318 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to hold all of those things 319 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: in your heart and you know, make space for them. 320 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: So I do try to write back whenever I can. 321 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 1: It's not always possible, but I think that's the only 322 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: way forward, is to sort of reflect and connect and 323 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: figure it out sort of as a collective. 324 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I can relate to that because I agree 325 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 2: it was always hard to process and talk about it, 326 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 2: because when you're going through something emotional and you're dealing 327 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 2: with such heavy topics, you don't ever want to put 328 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 2: your difficulties on the same level of what they are 329 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 2: going through, because I don't think it equates either. But 330 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,719 Speaker 2: it also doesn't discount our feelings and emotions and what 331 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 2: we're taking on. And I think with Chakaina and with 332 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 2: our project, we were dealing with trauma in real time, 333 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 2: and so Khalia and the dancers they had gotten out 334 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 2: weeks prior to our conversations, and when we started to 335 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 2: roll camera it was is very fresh. And then months 336 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 2: later when Alisha got out, that was a different process 337 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 2: and she was actually just speaking with Derek. So it 338 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 2: was just Derek the director and Alicia sometimes in a 339 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 2: room because it was so heavy, and throughout the process 340 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 2: it just took an emotional toll on all of us 341 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 2: because we started to develop these relationships and you start 342 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 2: to get invested in a different way, but really you're 343 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 2: also trying to navigate doing a job while experiencing all 344 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 2: of these emotions, and then you just have your own 345 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 2: personal lives and your career that is separate from this group. 346 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 2: It was very heavy, but I really appreciate you vocalizing 347 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 2: that it's just not on the same scale. So how 348 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 2: do you navigate that and who do you talk to 349 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 2: about it? Because by no means do I ever want 350 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 2: my experience to ever overshadow what the topic is and 351 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 2: what anyone else experienced. 352 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: With Sarah Edmondson, I was lucky enough to be able 353 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: to keep some of our you know, meetings fairly light, 354 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: like we would have lunch, we would go for a walk, 355 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: we would wash something on TV. So it wasn't one 356 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:12,959 Speaker 1: hundred percent just you know, extracting traumatic information. And in 357 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: that sense, you know, in my personal life as well, 358 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: I really tried to make space too. 359 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 4: I took up boxing while reporting that book. 360 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: Just really needed all kinds of different outlets and like 361 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: all kinds of distractions to just sort of not. 362 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 4: Fall too far down the rabbit hole. 363 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 2: Mine was crocheting, Okay, yeah, something with your hands. 364 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 3: You know, I don't know what it will be for 365 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 3: me yet, but I will find my thing. 366 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 4: Yeah. 367 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 3: Do you have any other advice on having that balance 368 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 3: between because that's sometimes where even just friends of mine, 369 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 3: where I'm like, I want to respect the trauma that 370 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 3: you went through, but I also want to get justice 371 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:50,959 Speaker 3: for what we have gone through together. 372 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: Well, similar to what I was saying about, you know, 373 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: meeting folks where they're at, you know, like not necessarily 374 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: always being on the just this topic, right, you know, 375 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 1: being able to do some third thing, being able to 376 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 1: meet in a you know, not related to Chakaina context, right, 377 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: but still having that sort of together feeling because we're 378 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,640 Speaker 1: all humans, we're all trying to just like live a life, 379 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: and I think creating those spaces and actually the filmmakers 380 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: on the Netflix series about Twin Flames Universe very good 381 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: for that as well. You know, on the one year 382 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: anniversary which just happened in November, you know, they brought 383 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: everyone back together just to be in each other's company, 384 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: just to have dinner. 385 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 4: That kind of thing is really important. 386 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 2: So Sarah, looking ahead, what charges need to happen in 387 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 2: the legal system to make it easier to prosecute cults 388 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 2: like organizations and also to support the victims who come forward. 389 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard to say, because no matter what, 390 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: in the trial system that we have today, there's going 391 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: to be that credibility. The witnesses are going to be 392 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 1: on the stand and the defense is going to be 393 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: able to show them a lot of times where they 394 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 1: consented and were happily singing the praises of the group. 395 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,400 Speaker 1: So that aspect, yes, you can go in with more information, 396 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: you can be sort of armed with the experience of 397 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: you know, folks that have come before. I know in 398 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 1: the UK they do have stronger laws around undue influence 399 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: and so there could be some legal mechanisms that make 400 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: the manipulation tactics that happening called an actual crime. So 401 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: there's some stuff to look at around that. I think 402 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 1: with groups that are online that are very international, it's 403 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 1: very hard to know what jurisdiction to go after. Right 404 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: when Flames Universe, they're based in Michigan the couple, but 405 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: the Michigan local police weren't interested because most of the 406 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: people who were harmed aren't in Michigan. Either the FBI 407 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: has to take it on or some other jurisdiction. So 408 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: some clarity around that stuff would also probably. 409 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 3: Help to kind of switch gears a little bit. Is 410 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 3: there any advice that you would like to give to 411 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 3: people who are either in a cult like environment in 412 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 3: questioning things or have recently left in our very early 413 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 3: on on their healing journey and process on. 414 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: The ladder, you know someone who's just recently out, It's 415 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: fine to go slow. You don't have to jump into 416 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 1: media spotlight. You don't have to fix everything or answer 417 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: every question. 418 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 4: It's fine to just sleep a lot, spend. 419 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: Time with the people you love, you know, maybe get 420 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: a pet, right like, those things seem to help you know, 421 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: just time, because if you're just sting on the same 422 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: questions all the time. I've seen that, and it just 423 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: sometimes makes folks reactive. They don't trust anyone, you know, 424 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: Like it's a hard, hard mental state to live in. 425 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: And yeah, like I think the questioning stage lasts a 426 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: really long time. So when you're not quite out but 427 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: you're questioning, it doesn't have to be resolved quickly either, right, 428 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: And I think if you're unsure, just go to someone 429 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,719 Speaker 1: you trust, try to talk it out. Hopefully that person 430 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 1: is very open minded and isn't trying to immediately judge 431 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: or say, of course, that guy's a jerk, that guy's 432 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: a cult leader. Find someone who will listen, who will 433 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: struggle through your questions in a respectful way. That was 434 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 1: definitely something I tried to cultivate as an interviewer. Was 435 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: not imposing some outside reality on them and really letting 436 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: them speak their own world into existence. So not you know, 437 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 1: saying he's a manipulator even out the gate if that's 438 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 1: not their understanding at the time, and questions will be answered, 439 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: it just does sometimes take a really long time. 440 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 2: We'd like to thank Sarah for sharing her invaluable insight 441 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 2: into the world of cults. From her early reporting and 442 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 2: bountiful to the complexities of prosecuting organizations like NEXIM. Her 443 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 2: first hand experience in navigating the emotional, ethical, and legal 444 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 2: challenges of working with survivors provides a powerful perspective on 445 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 2: this crucial issue. Sarah, we truly appreciate you taking the 446 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 2: time to share your knowledge with us, and we look 447 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 2: forward to continuing to follow your investigations. 448 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 4: This is Forgive Me For I Have Followed. We'll be 449 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 4: back soon. 450 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 3: Forgive Me For I Have Followed as a production from 451 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 3: wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael tore podcast network. 452 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 2: Hosted by me Khalia Gray and me Jessicasovetto. 453 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 3: Forgive Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron 454 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 3: Burlson and Sophie Spencer Zavos. 455 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Kalia Gray, myself, Wulmar Valderrama, Leo 456 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 2: Klam and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound. 457 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 3: This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original 458 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 3: music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts 459 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 3: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 460 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 3: you listen to your favorite shows. 461 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 2: See you next week. 462 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 4: See you next week.