WEBVTT - Ghost in the Genetic Machine: Humans 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:06.720 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:13.720 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:17.680 My name is Robert Lamb and this is our second 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:21.200 episode that deals with epigenetics. It deals with the ghost 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:25.480 in our genes, the basically getting down to the sort 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:29.000 of nature and nurture aspects of who we are. Uh 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:31.480 and uh. In the last episode, we we really went 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:34.279 down and discussed us some of what's actually happening at 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:37.120 that the genetic level, uh, what is happening at the 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:39.800 epigenetic level, and then and then how all of that 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:42.800 expresses itself in the phenome, which is who and what 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:47.199 we are? What? How an organism exists, it's phenotype. So 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.199 in this episode we're going to talk about studies that 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:54.920 have involved humans that's and uh and exactly how we 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:59.840 see epigenetic changes carried on from one generation to the next. 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:04.600 And it really gets down to discussions about how much 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:08.080 choice do I have? Mean any discussion of epigenetics and 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:11.920 nature and nurture, there's this undercurrent of free will to 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:14.840 what extent in my shackle do my genes? To what 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:18.480 extent is everything about me? Just laid out in the 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.919 original code work that was that came together in the womb, 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:24.399 and then how much of it is, and then how 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:26.120 much of it is also out of my hands because 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.320 of the environment that I am in, in the environment 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:31.400 that I'm raised in, the environment that I grow up in, 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:34.160 or as we're going to discuss more the environment that 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:37.080 my mother grew up in, or the or that that 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:39.480 her mother grew up in, right, like, how much of 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:42.240 it is? Uh, it's just sort of set in stone 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.480 to a certain extent before we even have a SASA. Yeah, 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:48.320 I'm glad you brought up the free will angle about 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:51.720 this too, because when we look at epigenetics UM, it 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:54.760 does sort of bring into question to what degree UM 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:58.360 are we just sort of dealing with on off switches 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:00.840 of our genes and how they're expressed, and how much 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:04.680 of this um is a genetically clean slate. Because it 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:06.760 used to be that we would assume that, of course 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:09.440 you would you would get your eye color, or your 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:13.320 hair color, or the tone of your skin from your parents, 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:16.400 from your grandparents, so on and so forth. But you 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.239 wouldn't necessarily have thought that the things that your mother 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:23.799 and father did as ten year olds would matter to you. 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:26.160 But in fact it does, and we'll discuss that. Yeah, 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:28.560 and then there's a certain amount of magical thinking, uh 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:30.360 in all of this as well. There's always you know, 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:33.359 these old ideas that die really hard, that the apple 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:35.680 never falls far from the tree kind of a thing. 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:38.000 You know, if the if the father was a criminal, 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:40.760 then the son is destined to be a criminal, you 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:42.160 know that kind of thing. If the and if the 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:46.840 mother was was a genius and just in a multitasker 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:48.880 or whatever you know, accolades you want to throw at her, 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.920 then surely the offspring will have that as well. And uh, 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:55.800 it's not as simple as that, right. There's a psychological 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.480 component to this that we will talk about. But right 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:02.120 now we're going to talk more about the physiological component. 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:04.440 In in order to do we're just gonna do a 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:09.400 quick overview of epigenetics. Um. Epigenetics is the study of 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:12.120 gene expression and how it can vary from what generation. 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:15.960 Epigenetics means in addition to the genes. In addition to genetics, 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:19.639 Eppie above the genome. Right, so you've got the genome 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:22.000 with all the d n A, the sequence that is 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.280 that does not change, and then you have the material 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:28.280 as you had pointed out before that's between the genome 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:31.160 and the epigenome. And these are the proteins. These are 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:36.440 the flip switching areas of gene expression that can be 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:39.200 passed down to another generation. I'm going to use a 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:42.560 different metaphor this time. It just occurs to me. Um, Okay, 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.200 think of say three Rock the TV show, right, lovely 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:48.080 just ended, just ended, very sad. Alright, So imagine this. 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:50.960 Lislemon comes up with a script for that night's show, 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.120 and you can think of that script as the is 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.080 the genome, all right, it's the genetic code. It says 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:01.000 what is going to happen. Right, Let's say that that 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.560 script and passes over Jack Donneghe's desk, her boss's desk, 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:08.400 and he says, well, given the current political or business environment, 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:10.280 I'm gonna make this change and this change and this 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:13.040 change and this change and this change. And now this 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.320 is the script that you're going to actually film. And 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:17.159 then the version of the show that you see, the 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:20.480 version that is filmed, that is the that is the 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:24.320 finished organism. So he's the He's the methyl group that 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:27.400 attaches to the protein that turns on or off different 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:30.760 aspects of the script. Right, So we talked about DNA 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:33.520 methylation in the last episode, but we won't talk about 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.440 it too much here. Yeah, it's basically the epigenome involves 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.159 and I'm gonna personify things a little bit here, but 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:43.480 it's meddling. It's meddling based on environmental stimuli. Environmental stimuli 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.120 that may include, uh, that may be nutritional, it may 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:49.800 have to do with angry, dangerous predators in the environment, 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.280 stress in the environment, or or various chemicals that are 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:57.400 interacting with the with the organism's body. Yeah, and this 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:00.440 is why one member of a pair of identical twins 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:04.320 can develop a bipolar disorder or asthma, even though the 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.159 other is fine. Right, This is epigenetics really helps to 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:09.680 explain why this happens because some of these uh, these 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:13.240 the epigenetic changes are taking place in the womb and 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.200 they're more or less set for that that organisms life, 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:18.640 but other switches are coming on can come on and 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:22.360 off throughout that that organisms life. So even though Jack 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:25.960 donaghy made this the script changes this week. The environment 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:28.280 might change, you get a new president in office, or 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:30.720 they're different business concerns, and then he might not make 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.640 the same changes the following week. All right, So when 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:36.360 we talk about epigenetic changes and we talk about them 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.640 and humans. One of the best ways to really look 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:43.480 at this in detail is to look at the Dutch famine, 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:46.800 which happened during full World War two. We're talking about 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:51.559 between nineteen forty four and nine. And the reason why 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:54.440 researchers wanted to look at the Dutch famine and the 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.680 families that were involved is because what do we have here. 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:01.800 We have an environmental condition and such as famine that 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:06.080 could greatly impact not just that generation, but the next 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:11.719 generation and how it's phenotypes, its attributes, those genes are expressed. Yeah, 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:15.800 because the situation is here that researchers were seeing persistent 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:21.000 health problems six decades following UH, this UH Dutch hunger 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:23.400 winter as it's called. The research has found that children 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.680 exposed to famine during the first ten weeks following conception 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:31.320 had less DNA methylation of the imprinted i g F 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.839 two gene than the children of the same sex, siblings 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:37.880 of the same sex they were unexposed to these conditions, 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:42.400 that's right. So in other words, that DNA methylation was 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.039 the process that that sort of attached to the proteins 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.880 to turn on or off that gene and so in 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:50.320 this instance they had less of it. In other words, 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:56.039 this DNA methylation wasn't able to UM to actually sort 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.800 of protect them, and so that this i g F 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.520 huge gene was able to express itself a lot more 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:07.080 in those children who experienced malnutrition. Now, likewise, children they 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.360 were exposed to these famine conditions at the end of pregnancy, 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:14.800 they showed no difference in the methylation compared to siblings 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:17.760 that were unexposed. So it's interesting to see, like see 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:21.400 what stage and development those those triggers are flipped. Now, 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:23.400 UM this was in the Netherlands, and again this is 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.480 wor World two. This was a great experiment for the 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:30.160 researchers at Columbia University UM Public School of Health to 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:33.440 to really and the Legan University excuse me, Medical Center 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:35.680 in Netherlands to really look at this data because they 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:39.880 could see which families UM had the most food in 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:43.880 the least food during that embargo UH in the Netherlands. 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:46.600 That is one example of what happens when you have 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:51.920 UM a dearth of food. Right. But what what one 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:55.840 researcher did, Dr Lars all of Vigrant is he looked 0:07:55.960 --> 0:08:01.160 at these overclax youth in Rboten, which is a Swedish providence, 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:04.960 and he wanted to see how much food was available 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:08.960 to these kids. Now, Bigrant is a preventive health specialist, 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:11.600 and what he did is he drew a random sample 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:16.240 of nine individuals born in this Overcallips parish in their 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:19.200 boating in nineteen o five, and he used historical records 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:22.320 to trace their parents and grandparents back to birth. So 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:26.560 these are meticulous agricultural records. And what they found is 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:29.200 that some of these kids had a lot of food 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:32.640 available to them during winters. Some kids did not. They 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:37.839 begin they had sort of a stasis of um impoverished 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.600 food resources available to them. So what you see is 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:45.000 is one line of kids who who can be sort 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:47.720 of gluttonous and eat a large amount at certain times, 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:50.679 and another line just that continue on right. So you 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:52.760 would think that the kids who weren't getting a lot 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:56.560 of nutrition for for the entire period, that they might 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:59.760 be the ones that were affected here adversely affected. But 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:03.679 actually actually the kids who over eight who we see 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:08.600 in successive generations having the problems with their genes switching on. 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:11.600 And when I talk about this, uh, these genes switching 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:14.480 on and off. I'm talking about diabetes. I'm talking about 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:18.120 shorter lifespans. In fact, Bagrant found that kids who went 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:21.280 from normal eating to gluttonous eating had produced grandsons who 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:23.840 died in average of six years earlier than the grandsons 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:28.080 of those who who had endured a poor harvest. And 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:30.800 then by Grant and his team controlled for certain socio 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.800 economic variations, and when they did that, the difference in 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:38.559 longevity actually jumped to an astonishing thirty two years. Okay, 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:44.480 So again, what we're seeing here is significant drops in lifespans. 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:47.480 And they also found evidence of it occurring on the 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.600 female line as well. So that means that the daughters 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:52.959 and the granddaughters of girls who had gone from normal 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:56.040 to gluttonous diets also live shorter lives. And of course 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:57.840 the study is important is we look at our own 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:01.360 dietary changes here to over the past and well in 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:04.360 the past decade, like here in the United States, as 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:07.679 we're looking at at at the generational changes in the 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.440 approach to food and approach the diet and uh, and 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:13.800 you kind of I mean in the sort of do 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:16.760 it yourself, fix it up, and improve your life kind 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:18.680 of attitude. You want to think, well, all right, I 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:20.959 used to eat this way, I'm now I'm gonna now 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:23.240 I'm eating better, I'm eating smarter, or I I don't 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:25.480 have the diet that my parents had or the diet 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.520 that my grandparents had, But you're still, to a certain 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:32.559 extent kind of shackled to their diet, which is which 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:36.400 is potentially scary. Yeah. Well, and I think that's why 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:39.120 we have seen such a spike and OBEs and diabetes 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.520 in any very young children, you know, as young as 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:44.440 five years old, six years old. Um, so some of 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:46.640 them are saddled with these genes that are flipped on 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:51.200 and off because of parents and previous generations eating habits 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:54.640 or ability to to get nutrition. So this guy b Igrant, 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:56.880 he he did these studies and then he hooked up 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.520 with Dr Marcus Pembrey, and he's a geneticist at the 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:02.960 universe A College in London, and he dared to ask, well, 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:05.240 what if the environmental pressures and social changes of the 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.240 industrial age had become so powerful the evolution had begun 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:11.120 to demand that our genes respond faster. So they hooked 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:12.959 up and they found out a punch of really very 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.960 interesting things. Yeah, this one about smoking, particularly interesting. And 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:19.760 this one was two thousand six published in the European 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:23.560 Journal of Human Genetics. And uh, I mean, it's it's 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:27.280 one thing to realize that, yes, smoking, which of course 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:31.400 is a a major thing for your body to have 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.080 to deal with. It's easy to imagine our especially best 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:36.560 one what we've talked about here, to imagine smoking triggering 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:40.080 certain epigenetic changes in the body and then those, uh, 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:43.920 those those changes being transgenerational, passing on to the next 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:47.600 generation or potentially to generations beyond that. But what was 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:51.240 really crazy about this particular study is that they were 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:54.960 looked at like over fourteen thousand fathers in the study, 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.319 and a hundred and sixty six of them had started 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:00.880 smoking before the age of a and that's so that's 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:04.560 before their bodies were actually preparing to enter puberty. And 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:09.559 uh and and already these changes were taking taking place. Yeah, 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.920 because it turns out that that um, if they are 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:15.960 affecting their body in an adverse way i e. Smoking 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:20.360 at this age and they began to form sperm, they 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:23.839 began to make it. That is when that sperm, that 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:27.199 genetic material is going to be informed by that outside 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:31.199 environmental condition of smoking, and that it's crazy to think 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:35.520 about a ten year old who is smoking. I mean, 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:39.760 I'm assuming pretty regularly here, because you know, it would 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:41.760 have to be in order to have such a marked 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.480 imprint on the genetic material. But that's crazy to think 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:50.000 that a ten year could be affecting his future offspring 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:52.840 at that moment. Yeah, And it also it really throws 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:55.280 this another, this other idea on its head, this sort 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:58.600 of idea like when you're a kid that you know 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:00.160 a lot of a lot of stuff that happened when 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.520 you're young is gonna is gonna affect who you are 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:07.160 as an adult, obviously, but you you kind of sort 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:10.040 of writing a certain amount of room for mistakes, like, oh, 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.520 I can I can start smoking when i'm young and 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:14.480 quit later, and if I can quit, then great, then 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:16.920 I'm done with that. Or you know, you can you 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:18.760 can do maybe kind of stupid things when you're ten 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.400 years old and it's not going to really have as 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:25.319 as much impact on your later life, but already it's 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.280 having an effect on your children when you're tent And 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.440 that's a that's really eye opening to think about. Yeah, 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.160 I mean, because those kids who took up smoking that early, 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:38.520 they had, um, they had kids who had a much 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:40.760 higher risk for ab city, and they had other health 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:45.040 problems well into adulthood and shorter lifespans. So what's amazing 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:47.760 about the study is that they had fourteen thousand individuals 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:51.560 and that's a very large sample, and year after year 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:53.720 they were able to look at the offspring and the 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.560 parents here and look at them in terms of like 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.280 their bone density, how much they weighed, with their bits were, 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:02.120 and they were able to track them over a number 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.720 of years, and so they got an amazing amount of 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:08.920 data that can show them very clearly that um, you know, 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:10.920 some of the genes were flipped on or off in 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.880 these instances. I also ran across the study talking about 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.760 cocaine use UM and in this way that this experiment 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:18.840 they were using mice, So these were cocaine using mice, 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:21.440 and they found that in these mice, the mice would 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:25.920 develop memory problems, they would pass on three generations um 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:30.080 due to these epigenetic changes. So there's another another example 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.320 of something where you know, one might think, oh, well, 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:35.680 the the sins of one's youth, uh, you know, they'll 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:37.880 they'll they'll be ramifications for that, but you tend not 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.840 to think of three generations worth the ramifications for you know, 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:44.800 your your drug hat. You know, I can't figure out 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.320 whether or not this is comforting or just really problematic. 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.320 Well to understand it at this level, you know, I 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.040 think it's I think it's a little column calum b. 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:57.560 I mean, it's you know, and we'll we'll get into 0:14:57.600 --> 0:14:59.640 this a little more before we close out the podcast. 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.280 But um, but even as we continue to map out 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.240 um so many of these these things that make us 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.160 who we are, all these different environmental changes and all 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:12.280 and the things written in our genes, they contribute to us. There, 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:15.080 I mean, ultimately, you're gonna have to roll with what 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.880 you get. So, I mean there, at the end of 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:19.840 the day, you you can worry about it a lot. 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:22.240 You can worry about, Okay, well what what what my 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:24.360 child genetics? What were they? And then then how am 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:27.120 I nurturing this child? And and it becoming this battle 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:29.440 of of of nurture and nature, and then you can 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:33.840 you can kind of over analyze everything. Uh, but at 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:35.520 the end of the day, you're you're gonna have to 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:37.280 roll with it. Yeah, I know. And I realized this 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:39.880 because my daughter has been asking about death a lot 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:43.760 lately and so you know, the question do sure this 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.400 morning was you know, what are the various ways that 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:48.160 you know people die? Or how do people die? In 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:50.800 So it's trying to tell her with you know, with 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.760 her four year old mind, and I was trying to 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:57.000 explain to her disease, which was very hard for her 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:59.200 to get her mind real She wanted to know if 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:03.520 insects gave her diseases, and of course yes, I know, 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:06.840 I thought, well technically in some cases, but I said no, 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:08.520 because of course I don't want her to be friend 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.600 of every ladybug and mosquito that she says she's she's 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:13.960 lying around. So anyway, I need to know basis at 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.400 four years old. But I began to think about this. 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:18.520 I began to think, well, you know, as she gets older, 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:22.080 she can have a more nuanced understanding of epi genetics, 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:26.000 and certainly, you know, when she reaches age twenty, there 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:30.200 should be a lot that can be uncovered about not 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:33.840 just my epi genetics, but hers and and perhaps you know, 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:39.160 various other offspring and trying to figure out, um, sort 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.000 of what the sins of the mother and father were. Yeah, 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:44.720 and it can I mean, it's can certainly be uh, 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:48.400 perplexing to think about two. I mean, for instance, uh, 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:50.400 my wife and I are in the process of adopting 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:54.440 a child and uh, and so in that situation, the nurturing, 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:57.680 of course is going to be almost you know, entirely 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:01.280 on us. There's there's a certain amount of time there 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.280 that we're not in the picture obviously. But but then 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.479 of course the genetics, the nature aspect of it is 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:11.240 almost entirely out of our hands. So it can lead 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:15.760 to a certain amount of worry and perplection over over 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:19.480 the nature versus nurture, over the epigenetic changes that that 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.159 that we can contribute to and and those that have 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:26.920 already uh you know, left the train station. But again, 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:28.240 at the end of the day, you gotta roll with it. 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.840 So that's true, that's true. You can't over worry about it. Um. 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:34.280 But of course, you know, you gotta roll with what 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:36.560 you get genetically. But you also have to roll with 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:39.240 which you get in terms of emotional baggage when it 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:43.359 comes to our parents, our ancestors. And this is where 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:47.479 we of course discussed the ancestor syndrome. But before we 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:49.560 talk about this, we should probably take a quick break 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:56.440 and uh, we'll be right back. All right, we're back, 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:58.520 and we're going to talk now about a little something 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:03.480 called ancestor syndrome and about some of the more almost 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:08.800 philosophical aspects of genetic memory um and uh, or even 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:12.640 you know, racial memory if you want. And in this 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:15.920 we can't help but think about Carl Young, whom he had, 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.119 of course, his theory of the collective unconscious, and that 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:22.119 this idea that there's this level of unconscious beyond a 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:26.360 personal unconscious, beyond our own subconscious, that is shared by 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:30.160 a society. That's uh, that's ship, that's written in our ancestry, 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:34.800 and it's uh, it's the reservoir of experiences and beliefs, um, 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:37.360 you know, what have you. That we're ruled over by 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:41.320 all these various universal archetypes that while the particulars of 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:45.399 them may change, the the idea of the archetype is 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:49.280 is just embedded in our in our history. And and 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:51.919 so Young talked a good bit about racial unconscious, racial 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.119 memory and uh. And there's a certain amount of this 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:59.480 to be interpreted when we start looking at epigenetics. It 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:02.280 should be because you know, we don't have scientific evidence 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:06.479 to say that our ancestors actual emotional experiences were passed 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:09.400 down to us. We can say that the environmental conditions 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:11.639 could flip the switch, because I mean, that's a scary 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.760 thought right there, because everyone has their emotional things in 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.159 any lineage that are going to be problematic. Be it 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.280 you know, your uncle, you know, your your great great 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.480 grandfather was a king who had his head cut off, 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:27.840 or your great great grandfather was, you know, a poor 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:30.440 miner in West Virginia just struggling to make ends me, 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:33.320 you know. Yeah. And it's those kind of like forbearers 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:39.720 autobiographies that help put together this idea that, um, we 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:44.200 do have these experiences passed down to us via stories 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:48.000 and that makes an impact on our psyches. UM and 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.600 aunt Selin Schutzenburger, she is a professor emeritus at the 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:54.200 University of Nice and France. She's actually ninety years old now, 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:59.000 but she coined the term psycho genealogy. And this is 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.880 this idea that there are these subtle ways in which 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:06.760 we impact generations of offspring, and the idea that all 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:10.600 family groups share an inherent tendency to transmit those elements 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:14.399 necessary for the continued survival of the group. So you know, 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:20.040 the group, the tribe, the family has ideas, traditions, certain 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:23.359 things that it does over and over again to ensure 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:30.000 the survival of this identity and through stories, wills, even 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:33.520 a will is a story, right, Um. Again, traditions, that's 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.640 a really big part of it. So Schutzenberg describes the 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:41.080 theory of invisible loyalty as being something that is owed 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.560 to previous generations and that this is a catalyst for 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:49.720 unwittingly re enacting the life events of our ancestors. This 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:52.240 is the idea that you have this invisible loyalty to 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:57.160 a great your grandmother Josephine, who this is the first 0:20:57.320 --> 0:20:59.960 circus acrobat, I don't know, um, And you begin to 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.920 think you can begin to take on these characteristics for yourself. 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:07.760 So I think it's interesting because, um, you know, a 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:10.960 child is born, it doesn't necessarily have any sort of identity. 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:14.680 It's got its genetic identity. It's god, it's phenotypes that 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:17.640 are expressed turn on and off. But then we begin 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:22.080 to sort of do these are a layer, these memories 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:24.879 on top of this child to make the identity. And 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:27.280 that's all good and fine if the child is good 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:30.359 with this identity, but it if if it is not, 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:33.960 then of course, this is where we see conflict. Yeah, 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:35.840 and uh, I mean I can't help but think too 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:39.040 about various materials I've read about the the so called 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:43.280 quote unquote scar of adoption that that did anyone. And 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:46.080 this is this scenaria where people argue both sides. But 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:50.280 there's this argument that that any adopted child who comes 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:52.760 to know about their adoption, that there is a certain 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:57.720 emotional scar there that's just unavoidable because I mean, it 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:01.439 is a it becomes that person's personal history and they 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:05.320 have to fit themselves into this grander story of their lineage. 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:08.720