1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you for tuning in. 3 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: If you were ever a fan of video games, you 4 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: were probably aware at some point of the video game 5 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: franchise Wolfenstein three D first person shooter wherein your your 6 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: obliterating Nazis. It's a lot of fun. It scared me 7 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: as a kid. Hi, I'm Ben, Hi, I'm know, and 8 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: so Ben, did you you played? You played the Wolfenstein 9 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: three D? Yeah, I can't remember it was three D, 10 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: but it was on a it was on a PC, 11 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: and it was sort of the in my childhood mind, 12 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: it was like the lighter version of another similar game 13 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: called Doom. What's the it's the Predecessor. I think it's 14 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: the Predecessor, that's correct, and that's our super producer, Casey Pegrum. Yeah, 15 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: Wolfenstein was like pseudo three D. It's really just two D. 16 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,199 Speaker 1: It's just moving a bunch of two D sprites around 17 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: to make it feel like three D. Doom was kind 18 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: of like what is this? Nerd talk? What is this? 19 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: Sprite was a little more two and a half D, 20 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: and then Quake is where they made the big jump 21 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: to full three actual three D casey on the case. 22 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: I am also pleasantly surprised that you you have some 23 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: thoughts on this matter. Huh. I was a die hard 24 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: gamer in the nineties. Yeah, I have not cared about 25 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: it in a long time. Sprites are just kind of 26 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: the building blocks of these games, like the characters. Yeah, yeah, 27 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: they're like the they're like the elements you move around rely, 28 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: but like they're they're even textures and stuff, right, isn't 29 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: that Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a sprite. This is where 30 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: my knowledge runs out. But I think, you know, like 31 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: nowadays is about textures because you have like the services 32 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: and you're applying to textures to them. The sprite was 33 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: kind of like all in one, like it was the 34 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: character but also the texture because it was like a drawing. 35 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: That's cool. This uh, this is strange because like many 36 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: people in the West who grew up in a post 37 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: World War two environment, uh we, whenever there was like 38 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: an evil army, easily, I'm just gonna make up the statistic. 39 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: Easily eight point six two times out of ten, that 40 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: evil army would be represented by the Nazis or something 41 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 1: like the Nazi Party, which is which is strange when 42 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: you look back. But it was very common to have 43 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: games wherein a person is fighting against Nazi forces, just 44 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: the way that some modern fighting games have people fighting 45 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: against North Korean forces or somewhere in the Middle East. 46 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: Today's story is about Nazis, and it's got a lot 47 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 1: of cool stuff in here. We've got we've got a 48 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: spooky castle, right, Hence the Wolfenstein reference, because I believe Wolfenstein, 49 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: in the parlance of the game, was this giant fortress 50 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: that you're traversing, like all the different floors. Yes, thank you. 51 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: I totally forgot that is what we're talking about, Wolfan stay. 52 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: I was, we're also talking about killing Nazis. Yes, someone's 53 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: got to do it. So we can't go ahead and 54 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: set the stage for World War two very very quickly. 55 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: It's the global conflict that lasted from ninety and it 56 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: involved access powers and allied powers. Often, at least in 57 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: the US, it is painted as a war with a 58 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: few prime actors. You know, they'll say, yes, Japan and 59 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: the US fought. Yes, Uh, Europeans helped out That's how 60 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: they'll put it. There'll it'll be like Europeans helped out 61 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: American forces. But really it was America versus Germany. That's 62 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: a vast oversimplification, it really is. That's what we do 63 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: here on ridiculous history, vast over simplifications. That is, that's 64 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: our bread and butter. My man, well, it is painted. 65 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: You know a lot of countries do that. If you 66 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: read a textbook somewhere else. They're going to have their 67 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: own countries take on World War Two, and the American 68 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: take is you know, pretty America centric, right. Absolutely. What 69 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: we have in today's episode, though, is a very rare 70 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: case of cooperation between these parties, right, and an unprecedented 71 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: move to kind of like when everything hit the fan, right, 72 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: you know, so the war is coming to an end. 73 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: Hitler has eaten a suicide pill and shot himself in 74 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: the face. That's the thing I remember most about Wolfing Stay. 75 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: By the way, you have to fight Hitler in the 76 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: end spoiler alert for a game that's like thirty. He's 77 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: in a Giant Max suit and at the end when 78 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,799 Speaker 1: you kill him, he says they have a al veder Zane, 79 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: referring to his wife a le braun Um. Right, So, 80 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 1: so Mac Hitler has been annihilated at this point in 81 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: the uh, you know, alternate history version of World War Two, 82 00:04:53,760 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: and uh, this castle becomes the site of an unusual union. Yes, 83 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: this is castle. It's ur and today we're exploring the 84 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: story of the only time that Americans and Germans fought 85 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: as allies during World War Two. So itter Castle is 86 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: a nineteenth century castle in a village called Ittter in Austria. 87 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: And it looks spooky. It looks like something out of 88 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: I don't know, it looks like the kind of castle 89 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: hell Boy runs into in the Mike Mignola stories. Absolutely, 90 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: I mean it definitely haunted as hell seeming. And just 91 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: for fun, let's see what four of us says about 92 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: the pronunciation of this castle. I got it it. I 93 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: love the I love the German intensity. And we're gonna 94 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: get into some fun German words in this episode. But 95 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 1: it's true. It looks like something out of like a 96 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: fractured haunted grim Grim Grimm fairy tale. It's top with 97 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: those cool little you know, crenelations where that are the 98 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: separated little turrets in between, um, the walls where you 99 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: can shoot you know, yeah, arrows or whatever. The pattern 100 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: that looks like one side of a zipper. That's exactly right. Um, 101 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: And it has a very very rich history. At first 102 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: shows up in around twelve forty four in German Land records, 103 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: and then it's been passed through several different different owners, 104 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: different hands. Um In nineteen thirty eight, when Germany annexed Austria, 105 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: the castle became a very uh sought after site for 106 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: all the secret weird stuff that Nazis were getting into. 107 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: It's true the Reich government officially leased the castle in 108 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: nineteen forty from its owner at the time, one Franz Gruner, 109 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: and the castle went through some some weird things because 110 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: after they had leasted or requisitioned it for their very 111 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 1: vaguely phrased official use, it went through a couple of iterations. 112 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: It was for a while it was the swank offices 113 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: of an organization called the German Association for Combating the 114 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: Dangers of tabat Echo because say which will about Nazis, 115 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: they understood that tobacco was dangerous. They were sticklers for health. 116 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: Although it doesn't take away from the image of the 117 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: you know, imperially slim s s officer with a cigarette 118 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: holder and an eye patch, you know, but I could 119 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: still be harkening back to our our video game and 120 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: then like think about this though. How amazing is that 121 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: to have your office be a castle. It didn't last. 122 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: On February seven, the entire structure and all the accompanying 123 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: buildings were requisitioned by s S Lieutenant General Oswald Pole 124 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: under the orders of Heinrich Himler, and then it was 125 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: transformed into a prison, but not just any prison, No, 126 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: not just any prison, and it was associated with probably 127 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: the most notorious UH site in all of like Nazi 128 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: involvement in World War Two, which would be the Dachau 129 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:03,239 Speaker 1: Concentration Camp UM, which operated the facility, which they referred 130 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: to as Oh boy, I'm gonna do my best on 131 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: this one evacuee Rungschlager, which means a an evacuation camp. 132 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: I love how the etymology is so interesting, like evacuee 133 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: is spelled E V A k U I E and 134 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: then the American words, you know, evacuation, evacuate UM. So 135 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: the castle was already you know, an impenetrable fortress I 136 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: mean with these high walls and those turrets we talked 137 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: about UM. But they transformed it even further UM, adding 138 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: onto features that already existed like this, these huge walls. 139 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: They had a moat had this gatehouse that was very, 140 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: very difficult to penetrate, and they added, um, these tangles 141 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: of multi layers of barbed wire or that they called 142 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: concertina wire, which I guess is the really really skinny 143 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 1: like razor wire that will slice right through you. Um. 144 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: And then they refitted it with these very complex locks 145 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 1: and essentially rendered the facility absolutely impregnable, uh to either 146 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: get into or get out of. Twenty of the existing 147 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: guest rooms in the central housing structure were converted into 148 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: secure but pretty pretty roomy cells. Others were turned into 149 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: guard rooms and offices. These were not cells for your 150 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: typical uh, political protester or petty criminal. This became a 151 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: home for v I P. French prisoners of war. Yeah, folks, 152 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: like the two former prime ministers of France. There was 153 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: Paul Renault Casey on the case. And then we have 154 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: edu r uh dallader d A l A d I 155 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: E r Huh Dad got it? Uh? And I know 156 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: this one, General Charles de gaull Ya see Charles, I 157 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: love this is my favorite part of the show, in 158 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: case he gets to correct our pronunciations. The older sister 159 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: in fact of General Charles de gal not a hardass 160 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: on the end is to Charley, and her name was 161 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: Marie Agnes Kalelu Marian, probably Casey on the case multipart. 162 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: So we have a firsthand account about the conversion of 163 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: the castle into a prison by Hans Fuchs. Hans saw 164 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: every he was growing up in the area. Hans says, 165 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: we saw everything from our school window, the double barbed 166 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: wire fence, the floodlights so that the whole night was 167 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: lit up like the day. But again, Loss Itter or 168 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 1: the Castle Itter was a subunit of the Dochau concentration camps, 169 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 1: and they wanted the people who were imprisoned in this 170 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: castle to be relatively well cared for so that they 171 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: could be used as bargaining chips. We will give you 172 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: one of the former prime ministers if you give us 173 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: this other stuff. But the problem here for Castle Itter 174 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: was that they were existing in the last days of 175 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: the war. Like May, it's pretty clear how things are 176 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 1: gonna shake out. The German guards at the prison run away, 177 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: but the French prisoners are trapped and the woods around 178 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: the castle are full of roaming desperate units of SS 179 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: and Gestapo, not necessarily in max suits. But we weren't 180 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: there Max suits are amazing. I'm just gonna say. I 181 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: know that they've been used for evil purposes in fiction, 182 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,719 Speaker 1: but they're they're just they're like one of my favorite things. 183 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: You've got some figures on your desk, don't you. Models, Yeah, 184 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: from oh from Pacific Rim and those are those are 185 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: huge mix But you know I'm a sucker for it. 186 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: Tell me your favorite mix ridiculous set. I heart radio. Yeah, 187 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: we should just have an email box just for favorite 188 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 1: Max at I heeart radio, dot nom um. The newer iterations. 189 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: I know we keep harping on this, but the newer 190 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: iterations of the Wolfenstein games are super cool and involved 191 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: a lot more of this like future attack that we're 192 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: talking about, like the big the big robot suits and 193 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: they have like robot ss dogs and all this stuff, 194 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: and they get really intense. The last few were quite difficult. 195 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: In fact, I haven't played it in years and years 196 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: and years. To me, this, uh, this story feels like 197 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 1: something very inglorious Bastards esque, you know. It's it feels 198 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: like there's some Tarantino inspiration here. Because the French prisoners 199 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: know that if they try to escape, they will be discovered. 200 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: So through some internal mechanism. Perhaps they're drawing straws, or 201 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: maybe some brave souls volunteered. The French prisoners send out 202 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: to prisoners on bicycles to try to find help. According 203 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: to Stephen Harding, author of a book called The Last Battle, 204 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: one of these French prisoners found a German major, Joseph 205 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna spell the last name g A N 206 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: G L gongle like. He was a highly decorated Rmacht 207 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: officer and he had become opposed to the Nazis and 208 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: was collaborating with the local resistance in Austria. That is 209 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: so interesting is there can we discuss a little bit 210 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: of the difference between the Nazis and the Verrmacht Republic. 211 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: Oh good question, Yeah, because there is a difference, and 212 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: it gives us a little insight into the motivation of 213 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: this major. It does, and again a little bit of 214 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: a surfacy discussion of this. But the Nazi party, you know, 215 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: essentially took over a pre existing Germany with the under 216 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: the attempt to make it a one party system. But 217 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: the very marked soldiers were already you know, in place 218 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 1: before the Nazis took over. The Nazis like including like 219 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 1: the s S and the Gestapo UH and the Nazi 220 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,719 Speaker 1: soldiers were required to really have this ethnic cleansing kind 221 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: of ideology, um, you know, in a very fanatical way, 222 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,719 Speaker 1: whereas the Vermacht should soldiers. Some of them might have 223 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: been hole hog into the Nazi way of thinking. Some 224 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: of them might have been you know a little more 225 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: old school or like the way they like things before 226 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: the Nazis came in. Um. So that totally makes sense 227 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: that this guy would have been one of the ones 228 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: who maybe wasn't as fanatical at all and was into 229 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: helping the resistance. Absolutely picture him saying, the German army 230 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: used to stand for something noble. Long story short, this 231 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: was the perfect guy for these French prison scouts to meet. 232 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: And the major thinks, well, I can't protect these prisoners. 233 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: I only have twenty soldiers that I that I can 234 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: count on. So he takes a huge white flag, which is, 235 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: you know, the universal symbol for coming in peace, and 236 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: he finds the closest American unit, the twenty third Tank 237 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: Battalion of the U S twelve Armored Division, led by 238 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: a guy named Captain Jack Lee. Jack Well, led by 239 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: a guy named Jack Lee who was a captain. His 240 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: first name was not Captain Jack Lee, though that would 241 00:14:58,120 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: be really cool. I still will refer to him a 242 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: hand worth as Captain jack Um. And Lee was down 243 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: he wont he was like, okay, let's do this, and 244 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: he offered to lead a rescue mission, very daring um 245 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: rescue mission to the impenetrable castle. Yeah, so this is 246 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: strange the Americans, as you said, No, they go with 247 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: this Vermont major and they park their tank close to 248 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: the castle entrance. On May five in the morning, that 249 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: SS finally attacks. They blow up the tank, but they're 250 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: unable to storm the castle. And this is about five 251 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: days after Adolf Hitler committed suicide on April. So things 252 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: are already very very desperate on the German side. You 253 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: know what, before we go too too far, we should 254 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: examine those two people they sent out for help and 255 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: learn a little bit more about them. Because I had 256 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: said earlier that two of the French prisoners went out 257 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: on bicycle, right, that's not entirely true. One of the 258 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: guys was their Yugoslavian handyman, and he actually he's the 259 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: first guy who went out. He found some US troops 260 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: in Innsbruck. But because the castle was outside of their jurisdiction. 261 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: They didn't all go. Major John T. Kramer's had a 262 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: crisis of conscience and sent a small rescue group, but 263 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: the French v I P folks in it had not 264 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: heard back from him. So the person they sent who 265 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: actually found Gongole and Captain Jack Cee Lee, uh, that 266 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: was their cook. So they were they were sending out 267 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: the help. Yeah, exatly because let's not forget these were, 268 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: um let's call them high value prisoners, right, folks that 269 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: could leverage. They wanted to keep alive, and they wanted 270 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: them to live and at least relatively comfortable environments, almost 271 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: like uh Juliana sang in the embassy kind of situation, 272 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: free to move around the facilities at quit you know, 273 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: comfortable quarters and food and all of that. But at 274 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: this point, um, these folks were very much in fear 275 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: of their lives and they could either be executed summarily 276 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: just just to get rid of any witnesses or whatever, 277 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: you know. I at this point it was like a 278 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: scorched earth kind of situation for the for the Germans 279 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: right there, trying to like get rid of any evidences 280 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: at point being is you would not have felt very 281 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: safe with all of these Nazis in full freak out mode, 282 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: right agreed, And the battle that takes place is in 283 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: some ways astonishing because the defenders were vastly outnumbered. They 284 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: were fighting about a hundred to a hundred and fifty 285 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: s S troops. Eventually, the attackers shoot and kill the 286 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: rmach major Gongol as they mentioned, they destroyed the tank, 287 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 1: they damaged the castle walls. Even the prisoners are joining 288 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: in with small arms they found after the guards ran away. Originally, 289 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: the battle lasts for about six hours and things are 290 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: looking increasingly dire. The allied forces that would be the 291 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: German forces and the UH and the prisoners and the 292 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: US forces are running out of ammunition. And then the 293 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: last moment, the way that all great battles go in 294 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,479 Speaker 1: works of fiction and so on, just as they were 295 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: getting down to their last bullets, a column of tanks 296 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: that small rescue party organized by John Kramer's arrives in 297 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: the afternoon and scatters the SS forces. And this Hans 298 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: Fuchs kid, who's fourteen at the time, was watching it 299 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: all from his family's farm. He's seeing clouds of dust 300 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: and smoke and machine gun fire, that goes on and 301 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: on for hours. That's that's the battle. They Oh they 302 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: take prisoners, Well, you gotta take some prisoners. They got 303 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: a castle at their disposal. I mean, they might as 304 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: well make good use of it, right, I know, right, 305 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: it's like you have to have a moot. They called 306 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: it a dry moat, though, Ben, what does that mean. 307 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: It doesn't sound as scary as a wet mode full 308 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: of like alligators, right, Yeah, I guess a dry moat 309 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: is just the circular ditch. Yeah, but I guess it would. 310 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: It would certainly make it. You know, you couldn't like 311 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: cross it with a tank or something like that. Right. 312 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: It limits your path into and out of the field. 313 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: Line is probably so steep, so wide that you can 314 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: only cross over a bridge. That's it. That makes perfect sense. 315 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: So about a hundred s s troops are taken prisoner, 316 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: that's according to a report from the BBC, And the 317 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 1: only fatality on the Allied side there was Major Gongle, 318 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: who later was buried in a nearby town and had 319 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: a street named after him. Did we talk about the 320 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: commander who killed himself? We did not, So this is 321 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: backtracking is a little bit. But I just think It's 322 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 1: interesting because this is you know, a very dramatic end, right. 323 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: So I mean once it was very clear that things 324 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: were not going their way, um, they were losing round, 325 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: you know. By by the second uh, the actual commander 326 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: of Dakao turned tail uh and ran to Castle eater 327 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: Um as it was being liberated by the troops, and 328 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: then he killed himself on May the second, and that's 329 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: when the castle's own commandant and the guards took off, 330 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: and that was what left the prisoners in charge of 331 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: their own destiny kind of right, So then they were 332 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: able to you know, but they were still locked inside, right, yes. 333 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: So later after they start picking up the pieces of 334 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: the conflict, caring for the wounded, getting rid of the dead, 335 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: the French v I p s are driven off. They're 336 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: on their way back to Innsbruck and then they're going 337 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: to be met by senior Allied officers and then they 338 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: would return to France to resume their careers. But for 339 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: the U. S forces, this was a little bit um, 340 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: not not a letdown, an anti climactic ending. Uh. The 341 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: seven Americans and their surviving soldiers of the Vermont, because 342 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: remember Gongole commanded twenty soldiers. They all piled in the 343 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: back of a truck and they took a ride back 344 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: to a place called Kufstein and once there the Germans 345 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: are marched off to a pow camp. Uh. The soldiers 346 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 1: rejoined their unit, and you should mention these are African 347 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 1: American soldiers and Lee, Harry Bass and the other tankers 348 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: just like called it a day. They did eventually get 349 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: recognized for their leadership. Captain Jack Lee received the Distinguished 350 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: Service Cross and Harry Bass received the Silver Star, and 351 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: it did turn some heads over in the States. On 352 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: July there was a piece that ran in the Saturday 353 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: evening Posts and there's a lovely quote that summed up 354 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: the whole thing, I think remarkably well. Um it was 355 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: from Lee himself, the the the Akan tank commander, and 356 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 1: he referred to it as being quote, just the damnedest thing. 357 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: Oh shucks. And that is where we will leave the story. 358 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 1: I think that Lee summed it up best. We want 359 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: to hear your strange stories about wartime, you know, because 360 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: it war is a terrible, terrible thing, but they're also 361 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: inspiring and sometimes beautiful moments that happened in the midst 362 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: of all that chaos, like the time the times that 363 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: opposing forces stop fighting each other and go hang out 364 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: for Christmas. Right, that's actually happened before. So let us 365 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: know what sort of moving or strange or just downright 366 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: ridiculous stories you have encountered in your own reading or 367 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: in your own experience. Uh and let us know. On Instagram, Facebook, 368 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: and Twitter. You can find us as a show. You 369 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: can find us individually. I am at Ben Bullen on Instagram, 370 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: I'm at how Now Noel Brown on Instagram as and 371 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: if you want to check out our Facebook community, you 372 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: can do so at the Ridiculous Historians where we have 373 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: to do his name me Ben or Casey on the 374 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: case or make us laugh big big thanks as always too, 375 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: super producer Casey Pegram research associates Gabe Lusia and Ryan Barrish. 376 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: Huge thanks to Alex Williams, who composed our theme are pal. 377 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: Christopher Haciota is here always in spirit. Damn you the quister, 378 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 1: Damn your eyes. And we hope to see again back 379 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: on the show very soon, because I really enjoyed the secondments. 380 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: Despite putting up a tough front, We're overdue. I'd love 381 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 1: to I'd love to have him back on the show. Absolutely. Uh. 382 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: And you know who else I'd love to have back 383 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: on the show, Ben, who's you? Because you're the co 384 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: host of the show and you do a great job 385 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: and I really appreciate you. Wait, who's not gonna get 386 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 1: on the show? What? What are you firing? People? Can't 387 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: fire people to fire anybody. I'm just saying, I want 388 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: I look forward to the next time we do this. 389 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: That was around about what I'm saying, okay, um, And 390 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: I look forward to you folks. You find folks out 391 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: there in podcast land joining us. Yeah, it's no smoke 392 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: when we say reach out. We would We would love 393 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts. You are our favorite part of 394 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: the show. So thank you for tuning in. See you 395 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: next time. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit 396 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 397 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.