1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. It's Saturday. 2 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 1: It's time for a vault episode and this is going 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: to be Hoof's Part two, which originally published six thirteen, 4 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 2: Please enjoy Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 2: production of iHeartRadio. 7 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,279 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 8 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. 9 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 3: of our series on the horse hoof. Now. In part one, 11 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 3: we discussed the anatomical form of the horse hoof, with 12 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 3: an emphasis on the alarming fact that the hoof is 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 3: essentially a highly specialized form of the tetrapod middle finger. 14 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 3: So when you see a horse galloping around, yes, it 15 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 3: is running around on all middle fingers and toes. We 16 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 3: talked about an ancient legend about the horse ridden by 17 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 3: Julius Caesar, which some artists have depicted as having dock 18 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 3: in hair and human feet instead of hoofs, at least 19 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 3: on the first two legs. Rob's idea, I think was 20 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 3: that this it's possible that these stories could be based 21 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 3: on observations of what are called polydactyl horses, horses born 22 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 3: with extra hooflets on the sides of the primary hoof, 23 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 3: which do in fact exist. 24 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, this seems to be the more sensible interpretation that 25 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: you see taken by folks. And I don't think anyone's 26 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: actually arguing that these horses had like human fore feet, 27 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: but it looks hilarious in the illustrations. 28 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 3: It does. And we finally talked about the evolution of 29 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 3: the horse hoof, with the commonly accepted narrative being that 30 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 3: millions of years ago, the ancestors of modern horses lived 31 00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 3: in more forested environments, maybe warmer, wetter environments. They were 32 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 3: much smaller, maybe about the size of dogs, and had 33 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 3: multiple toes per feet. Then, due to climate and habitat changes, 34 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 3: they became grassland dwellers, which drove them to evolve larger 35 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 3: body sizes and select for galloping speed, and these changes 36 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 3: coincided with the loss of peripheral toes until you end 37 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 3: up with the modern horse and its relatives in the 38 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 3: genus equis, so that would include the zebra and the 39 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 3: ass all having only one toe per foot, the columnar hoof. 40 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 3: Now today, we wanted to continue the series on the 41 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,119 Speaker 3: horse hoof getting into a couple other things, about horsecof 42 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 3: evolution as well as the invention of the horseshoe. But 43 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 3: before we do that, I wanted to take a brief 44 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 3: detour into a metaphorical connection to the hoof, which concerns 45 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 3: medical diagnostics and more generally, the realm of statistical reasoning. 46 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 3: So there's a famous aphorism widely used in medical education, 47 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 3: often invoked by practicing physicians, and it goes like this, 48 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 3: when you hear hoof beats, look for horses, not zebras. Rob. 49 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 3: I think this thing may have come up on the 50 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 3: show in the past that I couldn't remember when, but 51 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 3: I'm sure you've heard this before, right. 52 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And it basically is what it sounds like, right, it's, 53 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: you know, whatever the evidence seems to indicate, go for 54 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: the more likely and more statistically reasonable explanation for. 55 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 3: The evidence, right. So I was looking up the history 56 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 3: of this quote in a chapter on medical aphorisms in 57 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 3: a book called White Coat Tails Medicine's Heroes, Heritage and 58 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 3: Misadventures by Robert B. Taylor published by Springer. So I'll 59 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 3: refer back to that chapter in a second. But yeah, Rob, 60 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 3: like you say, the point of this aphorism is that 61 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 3: when a patient presents with symptoms X, Y, and Z, 62 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 3: you should start by thinking about the most common conditions 63 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 3: within the population associated with that club of symptoms, rather 64 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 3: than jumping to assumptions about rare diseases. So, for example, 65 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 3: if a patient presents at a US clinic with flu 66 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 3: like symptoms, it's better to start by investigating the possibility 67 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 3: that they have the flu or common cold, or now 68 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 3: maybe COVID, rather than to start by investigating whether they 69 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 3: have contracted the hindra virus from a flying fox in Australia. 70 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 3: Taylor traces this saying back to an American medical researcher 71 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 3: named Theodore E. Woodward who lived nineteen fourteen to two 72 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 3: thousand and five, who taught at the University of Maryland 73 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 3: School of Medicine. And it seems actually the common form 74 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 3: of this aphorism might be a paraphrase, and the more 75 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 3: accurate original quote may have been don't look for zebras 76 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 3: on Green Street. That might be a little perplexing, but 77 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 3: it makes sense in the context because Green Street was 78 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 3: the location of the University of Maryland hospital in Baltimore, 79 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 3: and he was teaching at the University of Maryland to 80 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 3: students there, so of course you can see why it 81 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 3: would need to be rephrased to make more sense outside 82 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 3: of its original locality. But I also think the localization 83 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 3: to Baltimore geography highlights something important, which is that this 84 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,799 Speaker 3: aphorism is only useful when you're talking about a known 85 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 3: population of patients in which the frequency of certain diseases 86 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 3: or conditions is fairly well understood. Because if you were 87 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 3: talking to a group of medical students, maybe in a 88 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 3: region of southern Africa where zebras are abundant, it might 89 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 3: make sense to use the aphorism inverted, I guess, depending 90 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 3: on how many horses there are around as well. But 91 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 3: in the same sense, you have to know what the 92 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 3: frequencies are in the population you're looking at before deploying this. 93 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. 94 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 3: Now, I find this the reasoning behind the saying actually 95 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 3: kind of interesting, because if you interpret it in the 96 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 3: usual way, it's a piece of advice that can seem 97 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 3: rather obvious, like common explanations are more common than rare 98 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 3: way ones. But I think as a general rule, when 99 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 3: looking for explanations, we do have to be reminded to 100 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 3: start by considering what is most likely in terms of frequency, 101 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 3: because there are all kinds of mental biases that constantly 102 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 3: tempt us to start looking for highly unusual causes for 103 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 3: unexplained phenomena before we've exhausted all of the extremely commonplace 104 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 3: candidates for one thing. Unusual causes and explanations are usually 105 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,239 Speaker 3: more exciting. They kind of stick in the mind because 106 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 3: of our level of interest in them, and they can 107 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 3: quite easily then come to mind when we start searching 108 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 3: around for an explanation. They're sort of at the top 109 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 3: of the toy box right now. In this section of 110 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 3: the book I was talking about, Taylor makes an interesting 111 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 3: point about the zebra aphorism, which I hadn't quite considered. 112 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 3: I was just thinking at the first order level of 113 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 3: more common explanations and less common explanations. But Taylor also 114 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 3: writes quote as a clinical corollary, experienced diagnosticians look first 115 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 3: for uncommon manifestations of common conditions rather than common manifestations 116 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 3: of uncommon diseases. Now that seemed really interesting to me. 117 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 3: I hadn't quite thought about it that way. And of 118 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 3: course it would depend on exactly how uncommon you mean 119 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 3: in each clause of that sentence, Like if you were 120 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 3: to represent them as actual percentage chances and stuff. The 121 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 3: math might break out in different ways. But if a 122 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 3: certain set of symptoms appears in I don't know, only 123 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 3: three percent of cases of an extremely common condition that 124 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 3: affects you know, millions of people every year, it is 125 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 3: probably still worth investigating that diagnosis the uncommon manifestation of 126 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 3: the extremely common condition before you look at the possibility 127 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 3: of a condition that matches the symptoms very closely. But 128 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 3: you know, you might only see all a couple of 129 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 3: cases in the world per year, it's extremely rare. You'd 130 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 3: still get way more hits of confirmation on the on 131 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 3: the uncommon version of the common condition. 132 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: It reminds me of various discussions we've had about cryptozoology 133 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: and the interpretations and misinterpretations of dead animals and in 134 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: some cases dead human beings, where you're looking at some 135 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: rate of decay and yeah, are you looking at it 136 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: as the as an uncommon manifestation of a common condition, 137 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: and in other words, are you're looking at as kind 138 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: of like a novel pattern or appearance in decay of 139 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,079 Speaker 1: just a normal, mundane animal, or are you going to 140 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: jump to the to that extreme level and think, well, no, 141 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: this is just how it looks and we've just never 142 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: seen this creature before. 143 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. However, I want to come back on the 144 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 3: other end, because if you search for medical case reports 145 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 3: citing this aphorism, which I was doing a lot of times, 146 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 3: it will be specific to discuss cases where it was 147 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 3: a zebra on Green Street, the rare and unexpected diagnosis 148 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 3: that turned out to be correct. So just one example 149 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 3: I was looking at this was a case report published 150 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 3: in Clinical Practice in Cases in Emergency Medicine in twenty 151 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 3: nineteen by Loupez at All called Beware of the Zebra, 152 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 3: nine year Old with Fever. I believe this incident took 153 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 3: place in the US state of North Carolina. So it 154 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 3: was a nine year old girl whose family spoke only French, 155 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 3: and they presented at the hospital with the patient having 156 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 3: an abdominal pain, vomiting, intermittent fevers, fatigue, and headache, and 157 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 3: because there was a language barrier, everything had to be 158 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 3: done with the help of an interpreter, and it seems 159 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 3: that this led to some maybe some original misunderstandings about 160 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 3: the case history. So the doctors tried to diagnose based 161 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 3: on all the normal explanations that they would be likely 162 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 3: to see in their patient population, but none of the 163 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 3: common diagnoses really fit her case. Her condition continued to 164 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 3: get worse. It even became life threatening, and the breakthrough 165 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 3: seemed to come when the doctors began looking outside the 166 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 3: normal slate of conditions encountered in their practice in the 167 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 3: United States. Finally, they learned that the girl's family had 168 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 3: just in the weeks before, arrived from the Congo, where 169 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 3: malaria is common. The care providers eventually ordered a test 170 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 3: that would put them on the right track. They write 171 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 3: in their report, quote, this test was a peripheral blood smear, 172 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 3: specifically a thick and thin smear, which revealed Plasmodium falciparum, 173 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 3: and this is one of the protozoa responsible for causing malaria, 174 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 3: leading to a final diagnosis of cerebral malaria. And then 175 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 3: they write from here they contacted the twenty four hour 176 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 3: CDC hotline to immediately get the appropriate anti malarial medication. 177 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 3: They put the girl on a quinine drip and admitted 178 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,559 Speaker 3: her to the pediatric intensive care unit. And then they say, 179 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 3: quote remarkably, within four weeks, she made a full recovery 180 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 3: and returned home with her family. So thankfully, the patient 181 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 3: was all right in the end, but she potentially could 182 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 3: have died if doctors hadn't made the locally unusual but 183 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 3: correct diagnosis and given her the right treatment. And so 184 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 3: the authors say in their conclusion quote, many of us 185 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 3: are taught the common aphorism in medical school. When you 186 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 3: hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras. When approaching a 187 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 3: nine year old with fever, we hear the hoof beat 188 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 3: symptoms and tend to think of the typical diagnoses that 189 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 3: are commonly seen in our pediatric population. Yet if we 190 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 3: are not thinking about the zebras, we will miss this 191 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 3: common presentation of a disease that is uncommon north of 192 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 3: the equator, which could lead to high morbidity and possibly 193 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 3: even mortality for patients. So it's very good that they 194 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 3: were able to discover this intervene and probably save the 195 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 3: girl's life. But it highlights how there's a difficult balance, 196 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 3: Like if you go looking for zebras before you look 197 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 3: for horses on Green Street, you will waste a lot 198 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 3: of time and resources and potentially cause frequent misdiagnoses that 199 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 3: could harm people. But if you never consider the possibility 200 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 3: of zebra's on Green Street. There will be rare but 201 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 3: very real cases where you could save somebody's life but 202 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 3: you don't. 203 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, certainly looking at the 204 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: like the professional end of the scenario, because on the 205 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: other end, like say the user end and the media end, 206 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: I mean, zebra on Green Street. That's a great headline. 207 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: You're gonna that's the headline that's gonna stick in your mind, 208 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: and then when you're going to see the doctor, you're 209 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: gonna be like, hey, doc, is it possible that a 210 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: rare amiba is eating my flesh? Or something to that effect, 211 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: because that's what you saw in the headline, that's what 212 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: you saw on the the documentary series that that that 213 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: sensationalized a rare case, right. 214 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 3: I Mean. The the difficult thing is like, because of 215 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 3: the way we emotionally react to stories like this, I 216 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 3: feel like it kind of tends to have the effect 217 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 3: of making us think, well, maybe then I should start 218 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 3: looking for diagnoses of unusual diseases in patient populations. So 219 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,239 Speaker 3: it just highlights like diagnosis in the specific case of medicine, 220 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 3: and searching for explanations for unknown phenomena generally is really difficult. 221 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 3: It involves a balance between prioritizing likely explanations, which are 222 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 3: by very definition almost always going to be correct, but 223 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 3: also being open minded enough to catch the unusual ones 224 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 3: when they arise. And obviously, I think a big part 225 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 3: of the art of medicine is gaining good intuition and 226 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 3: establishing sound processes to prioritize explanations in a reasonable way 227 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 3: based on what we know about frequency, but then also 228 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 3: to be able to catch the cases that are unusual 229 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 3: and intervene appropriately to help people. All right, you want 230 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 3: to talk a little bit about the evolution of the 231 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 3: horse hoof? 232 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we should probably talk a little bit more 233 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: about how they came to run about in their middle fingers. 234 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 3: We talked in the last episode about a pretty commonly 235 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 3: accepted story of how that evolutionary process occurred, but there 236 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 3: was still some uncertainty about exactly why the one toe 237 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 3: making contact with the ground is favored over keeping the 238 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 3: larger number of toes that the ancestors of horses used 239 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 3: to have, And to some degree I think that question 240 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 3: is still not fully settled. There are still some questions 241 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 3: about why exactly the one toe was favored. We do 242 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 3: know that the ancestors of horses and zebras and asses 243 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 3: had multiple toes per foot. But what is gained by 244 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 3: going quad bird? You know, the middle fingers across all 245 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 3: four feet, So the evolution of is called monodactyly, having 246 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 3: one toe monodactyly. It has long been assumed that that 247 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 3: was useful for allowing a large animal like a modern horse, 248 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 3: to achieve greater running speed. But I came across an 249 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 3: interesting alternative idea explored in a paper called the Evolution 250 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 3: of equid monodactyly, a review including a new hypothesis published 251 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 3: in Frontiers and Ecology and Evolution by Christine M. Janis 252 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 3: and Raymond Bernor, and basically here the authors asked what 253 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 3: if the evolution of the modern equine hoof was a 254 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 3: product of selection for endurance rather than speed, meaning that 255 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 3: the primary advantage conferred was in the evolution of an 256 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 3: efficient and energy efficient spring foot that would support long 257 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 3: distance trots at medium speed to locate better food resources. So, 258 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 3: under their hypothesis, the law of extra toes may have 259 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 3: been a coincidental byproduct of the selection for the more 260 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 3: efficient spring foot, which helps the horse conserve energy while foraging, 261 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 3: rather than an adaptation for top speed. Running, which again 262 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 3: is assumed to be primarily for the purpose of escaping 263 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 3: the jaws of predators. Now I cite this not to 264 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 3: say that I think their hypothesis is definitely correct. I 265 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 3: have no expertise to decide between which explanation of the 266 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 3: horsfof evolution better fits the evidence, but this possibility made 267 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 3: me think back again to the Zebras on Green Street 268 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 3: saying about how sometimes certain explanations seem more likely to 269 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 3: us not because they're actually more common, but because they're 270 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 3: more mentally salient. It reminds me I've talked before about 271 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 3: this idea that I have the sort of sex and 272 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 3: violence principle in evolutionary reasoning, where what I think I've 273 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 3: observed is that when people without or sometimes even with 274 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 3: biological training, are trying to think of possible evolutionary explanations 275 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 3: for a trait in an organism, we are a little 276 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 3: too quick to resort to explanations involving either predation or mating, 277 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 3: and we often overlook extremely common mechanisms in nature, like 278 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 3: temperature regulation and energy efficiency, which play a huge role 279 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 3: in the success of a life form. But I think 280 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 3: maybe they're not as interesting to our brains as sex 281 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 3: or violence, so we're less likely to think of them. 282 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 3: They do not bleed, so they do not lead in 283 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 3: the mind. 284 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it kind of reminds me of past discussions we've 285 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: talked about concerning the stegosaurus, for example, you know, and 286 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 1: memory serves you know that there have been various interpretations 287 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 1: over the years, for there are those curious plates on 288 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: their back, as well as very interpretations of just how 289 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: they are positioned. But yeah, you can with something like that, 290 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: you can. You're inevitably you're going to find those explanations 291 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 1: that have to do with mating, or protection from predators, 292 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: or protection when they're in conflict with others of their kind. 293 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: But yeah, I guess sometimes these ideas that they're used 294 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: for temperature regulation or something like that may feel less exciting. 295 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: May it may feel more mundane. Though I guess you 296 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 1: could also argue that maybe the more exotic or mysterious 297 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: the feature is, like say those backridges on the stegosaurus, 298 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: maybe that cancels it out to some degree. 299 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 3: I don't know, but. 300 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine a like a seven year old 301 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 1: or an eight year old playing with the toy stegosaurus 302 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: and be like, look, mom and dad, this guy's warming 303 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 1: up in the sun watching. That's not what bathtub dinosaurs do. 304 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: They bite each other. 305 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 3: But again I want to make clear I'm not saying 306 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 3: I think that the trotting foraging spring hook explanation is 307 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 3: necessarily better than the high speed running explanation for the horse. 308 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,360 Speaker 3: I don't know, but I think it's important to remember 309 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 3: to consider those types of explanations as well. Now, another 310 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 3: question that has come up in several things I was 311 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 3: reading is about should we really say that the horse 312 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 3: only has one toe? I mean, it really does basically 313 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 3: have only one toe that makes contact with the ground, 314 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 3: But in what sense did it really quote lose the 315 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 3: other toes. One example of this counter narrative I was 316 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 3: reading is in an article in The New York Times 317 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 3: by Veronique Greenwood published February eighth, twenty twenty, called a 318 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 3: horse has five toes and then it doesn't. And this 319 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 3: article tells the story of a researcher named Catherine Kavanaugh, 320 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 3: a biologist at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth, who was 321 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 3: looking at preserved horse embryos in the lab when she 322 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 3: discovered something very interesting, which is that during the earliest 323 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 3: stages of gestation, the area of the embryo that will 324 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 3: eventually develop to become the foot become the hoof in 325 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:08,959 Speaker 3: that area. The embryonic horses have five toes, so this 326 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 3: period during development only lasts for a couple of days 327 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 3: before the extra toes begin to sort of fuse and vanish. 328 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 3: But to read from the article briefly quote, the discovery 329 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 3: implies something profound about how anatomical development works. As an 330 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 3: embryo puts itself together, growing from a tiny wad of 331 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 3: cells into multiple specialized tissues, fed by blood vessels and 332 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 3: linked by the winding threads of nerves, it is following 333 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 3: a template. That template is subject to evolution, just like 334 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 3: other things about the animal. But some moments in the 335 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 3: process or some routes that development takes may not easily 336 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 3: be altered, And so the researcher here, Catherine Kavanaugh, is 337 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 3: quoted saying something about the early steps in toe development 338 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 3: is stabilized. We don't know why, but that's what we 339 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 3: think is going on. So I found it's also interesting 340 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 3: because it's an example of how stages in development can 341 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 3: become evolutionarily fixed even when they differ from the final form. 342 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 3: So like for some reason, as the horse is growing 343 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 3: as an embryo, it needs to develop five fingers before 344 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 3: or five toes before it can lose four of the 345 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 3: toes per hoof, so you know, eventually it will have 346 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 3: functionally one toe making contact with the ground, but the 347 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 3: development process has to go through this other stage first. 348 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: For some reason, it reminds me of something we discussed 349 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: in our whale episodes about the blowhole of the whale 350 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 1: being seen to, of course, through the fossil record, travel 351 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: up the snout up to the top of the head, 352 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: but we can also observe this movement in the womb 353 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: as the fetal whale is developing. 354 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. Another interesting thing about the horse hoof is that 355 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 3: there are some people who have pointed out how vestiges 356 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 3: of the missing toes can still sort of be found 357 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 3: as little sort of ridges on the sides of the hoof. Yeah. 358 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 1: I ran across this a lot in some of the 359 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: veterinary sources I was looking at. 360 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 3: But don't let this take away from your mental enjoyment 361 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 3: of thinking about the horses running around on its middle fingers, 362 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 3: which it functionally is it is, I. 363 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: Mean to me, it makes it even more weird. It's 364 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: kind of like if you were to It's kind of 365 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: like if you're looking at Kermit the Frog and someone 366 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 1: were to tell you, Like there's a difference in saying, hey, 367 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: there's somebody's hand in there, and and someone saying, actually, 368 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: all the bones of a human hand are present in 369 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: Kermit the frog, but they have been repurposed and formed 370 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 1: into the skeletal structure of this bipedal frog creature. Like 371 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: that's even crazier, And I feel like that's more in 372 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: line with what we know about the horses. 373 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 3: Splendid analogy, Bravo. All right, are we ready to talk 374 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 3: about the horse shoe? 375 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is something that originally I didn't think we 376 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: were going to cover, or if we were to cover, 377 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 1: we might come back, but I felt like it's kind 378 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: of so closely linked to our understanding of the horse 379 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: and the human use of the horse. And at the 380 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: same time, in discussing this, we are going to be 381 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: kind of blowing through the domestication of the horse rather quickly. 382 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 1: Like this is a topic that has received a lot 383 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: of attention over the years in varying fields. I mean, 384 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 1: there's genetic research, there's archaeology, there's you know, various cultural inquiries. 385 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: It's kind of all over the place, and there are 386 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: a lot of unanswered questions about, you know, especially when 387 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: you get into you know, the exact who's and wins 388 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: and whares, say, horse domestication and even the development or 389 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: the horseshoe. But I feel like covering the horseshoe also 390 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: helps us understand the hoof a little bit more so, 391 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,479 Speaker 1: briefly talking about the modern horse, the modern horse has 392 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: a long and pivotal history as a human steed. Many 393 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: animals have, of course as mounts for human riders, and 394 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,479 Speaker 1: many have served as a pack and draft animals. I 395 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: know that, at least on the artifact and perhaps elsewhere 396 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 1: in some core episodes, we've touched on the importance of 397 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: the camel and the donkey. But the horse, the horse 398 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: is just a whole different matter, both in terms of 399 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: the impact that it's had, like I think, the larger 400 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: impact that it's had globally, and also just how it 401 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: has captured the imagination. Not to diminish the camel or 402 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: the donkey, because in particular regions, the camel and the 403 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: donkey have been far more important. Whole books have been 404 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: written about the camel and the donkey, and I've read 405 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: parts of them. If you want to hear a little 406 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: bit more about that, go back to the Monster Fact 407 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: episode I did on Donkeys of Dune, which touched on 408 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: this a little bit. Now, as we've discussed, the modern 409 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: horse evolved over the course of fifty to sixty million 410 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: years from a diminutive ancestor, and then it would have 411 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: reached identifiable form somewhere around four to four point five 412 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: years ago, then migrating across the Bearing Strait via some 413 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: sort of a primitive land bridge into Eurasia about eleven 414 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: thousand years ago, then becoming stinct in North America after that, 415 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: and it would not come back around the globe to 416 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: North America until it was reintroduced via European conquest in 417 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 1: the fifteenth century seehe Now. Of the wild horse's three ancestors, 418 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: two went extinct and a third the Takei or Mongolian 419 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: wild horse or Preswalski's horse. These are all the different 420 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: names for the same creature. Essentially, this survived only in 421 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: captivity and then was subsequently has been subsequently reintroduced into 422 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: the wild, though with some important caveats worth discussing. Should 423 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 1: we come back around to talk about the reintroduction of 424 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,959 Speaker 1: a species. There are lots of sort of ups and 425 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: downs with that particular story, as there are with some 426 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: other species reintroduction tales. Now much has been written about 427 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: the role of the horse in the history of human conflict, 428 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: and there is indeed just so much much that we 429 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: could and I guess should one day discuss about that. 430 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 1: You know, the use of say, chariot technology, even the 431 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: saddle like, they're just so many different angles to take 432 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: now is pointed out by equine warfare expert and Highland, 433 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: and this is in Brian and Fagin's The Seventy Great 434 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 1: Inventions of the Ancient World. DNA evidence suggests that the 435 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: domestication of the horse took place independently in several different 436 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: places and times. And according to them, and this was 437 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: this book came out in two thousand and four, so 438 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to touch on a more recent source on 439 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: all this in just a second. They were talking about 440 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 1: the earliest domestication having possibly taken place on the Eurasian 441 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: Step somewhere around four thousand BCE, though they did highlight 442 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: that the proof was inconclusive. I've also seen other sources 443 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: just put it that The geographic origin of horse domestication 444 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: is simply an unknown, and there of course a handful 445 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: of likely areas and times, based on different findings, spread 446 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: across Eurasia, from as far west as Iberia to as 447 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: far east as Siberia. Now more recently. The more recent 448 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: source I was looking at on this though, was a 449 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one analysis of ancient horse DNA, and this 450 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: seemed to narrow it down to the Eurasian step the 451 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,159 Speaker 1: Volga Dawn region, so that would seem to possibly be 452 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: the strong contender for where the who. That's a little 453 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 1: bit more complex, is pointed out by Amber Dance in 454 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: a solid twenty twenty two article for Smithsonian Magazine titled 455 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: When Did Humans Domesticate the Horse? The region was home 456 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 1: to diverse peoples who may have engaged in horse domestication 457 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,959 Speaker 1: in the earliest time period. The win in all of 458 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: this sounds like it was maybe four two hundred years ago, 459 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: pushing us back to the twenty one hundred s BCE. 460 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: Based on all of this, though, Dance also points out 461 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: that quote clear evidence of horse domestication doesn't appear in 462 00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 1: the archaeological record until about five hundred years ago. That 463 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: would push things back obviously now, as Highland and Fagan 464 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: pointed out, stud records from twenty three hundred BC and 465 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: what is now Iraq include data on donkeys, mules, and 466 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: some horses. There are Sumerian proverbs that refer to horse 467 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: riding during this time period. But yeah, like I say, 468 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: this is a topic we could go on about at 469 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 1: some length, but suffice to say that the evidence points 470 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: to this general time period, but it has still long 471 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 1: been a topic of dispute. 472 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 3: Now. 473 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: One thing that I liked in Dance's article is that 474 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: they point out that horses were coexisting alongside human beings 475 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: long before we were able to ride them or really 476 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: do anything with them. They were around during the time 477 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: of Stone Age human beings. They no doubt inspired Stone 478 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: Age human beings and human populations. Our ancestors depicted them 479 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: in their cave art, but it would have been a 480 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: long time before they could figure out how to master 481 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: these beasts and truly harness the power. 482 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 3: Of the horse. Yeah. I don't know if this is 483 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 3: still the dominant view, but I recall reading years ago 484 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 3: that many researchers thought that humans probably hunted horses for 485 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 3: food before they domesticated them. 486 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's what I saw indicated. And these sources 487 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: I was looking at as well, you know, I mean, 488 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: you see them from afar. They look cool, they looked 489 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: really neat. Look at that those flowing manes. I mean, 490 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting to think that some of the 491 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: some of the impressions we have watching a horse running 492 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: about with its kind, you know, across the field. You know, 493 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: maybe we're feeling some of the same things our ancient 494 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: ancestors would have felt, you know, these sort of deep 495 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: down impressions, but with the added level of we probably 496 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: don't think about maybe running them down with our spears 497 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: and cooking them up later and making things out of them. 498 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: Of course, this would have been This was how we 499 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: interacted with pretty much everything in the natural world during 500 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: that time period. And of course if we were going 501 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: to hunt a horse, we would have to depend on 502 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: human ingenuity, human strategy, human tool use, and eventually when 503 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: humans figure out figured out how to truly harness the horse, 504 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: they also had to employ various tools. So if anyone 505 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: out there, if you're like me, most of your experience 506 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: with horses is probably in video games where you break 507 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: a wild horse or train a wild horse by doing 508 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: something like I don't know, whistling at it, or you know, 509 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: you jump up on its back. I was asking my son, 510 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: how do you get a horse? And Zelden He's like, oh, 511 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: you just jump on its back and I don't know, 512 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: you do something else and then you're good to go. 513 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, Breath of the Wild is kind of a bucking 514 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 3: Bronco thing. You jump on the horse and if you 515 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 3: can hold on long enough while it's trying to kick 516 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 3: you off, then it becomes your friend. There you go. 517 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, then that's fine for video game, but a lot 518 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: more complex. If you read any like serious westerns about 519 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: breaking horses and so forth, you get into a little 520 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: Cornett McCarthy, you're gonna you know, it's it's it's a 521 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: longer process, a lot more more kicking, maybe a few 522 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: more busted ribs in the process. 523 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 3: And so. 524 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: One thing that Hyland and Fagan point out is that 525 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: as humans were mastering horses, they inevitably turned to bovine 526 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: control mechanisms, so cows were domesticated much earlier. Humans had 527 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: had much earlier figured out some of the ways that 528 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: they could use tools and things they they built to 529 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: control these large and powerful creatures, and they were able 530 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: to adapt some of those for the domestication of the horse, 531 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: and they evolved from there to include things like metal 532 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: bits and harnesses, ultimately things like armor horse armor for battle, 533 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: chariot technology, and of course things like the saddle and 534 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: stirrup loops. But all of this discussion thus far has 535 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,959 Speaker 1: been in service of the horse hoof and of course 536 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: the horseshoe. As we mentioned already in the previous episode 537 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: on the horse hoof, the hoof, while certainly an amazing adaptation, 538 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: is not indestructible, and the domestication of the horse took 539 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: this creature out of its sort of normal environment in 540 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: activities and placed it in those that suited us best, 541 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: especially in the use of things like agriculture, travel, ultimately warfare, 542 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: and at some point, and much like horse domestication itself, 543 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: likely various points in various times in ancient history, humans 544 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: who made use of the horse realize that hoofs require 545 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: special care, and that this care could in fact be 546 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: preventative care, so the hoof, like the human foot, could 547 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: be protected and reinforced. 548 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 3: This is one of those things like drinking animal milk, 549 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 3: that's the questions like who's the first person who tried 550 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,479 Speaker 3: to do this, You really got to wonder. 551 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and again this kind of gets into sort of 552 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: the everyday nature of the horse and horse related technology. 553 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: It just seems so common. You know, it's the stuff 554 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: of westerns and fantasy shows, fantasy shows in which the 555 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: horse is not the most fantastic element. You know, we're 556 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: focusing on the dragon, but meanwhile, here's this animal running 557 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: around on its on its single toes, and we have 558 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: augmented this creature with various contraptions and straps and bits. 559 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: And also we have we have nailed these these shoes. 560 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: We call them a shoe, but you know, it's like 561 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: it's like an iron loop onto the bottom of their 562 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: their hoof walls in order to make them more capable 563 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: of keeping up with what we need them to do. 564 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: Technologically enhanced. Is the horse cyborgs? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and 565 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: in some respects now, there have been many different approaches 566 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: to this over the ages, because again, like the Bay Sick, 567 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: none of it is the realization that, oh man, we're 568 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: rough on these horses. We should we're having to clean 569 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,359 Speaker 1: up and take care of them after we use them 570 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: too hard. Let's try and protect that hoof a little bit, 571 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,760 Speaker 1: and there have been various ways to sort of address 572 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: this again in different times. 573 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 3: In different places. 574 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: Some early examples from parts of Asia have been based 575 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:27,399 Speaker 1: in apparently in medicinal organic wrappings to treat injuries. So 576 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: you're working your horse too hard, the horse is suffering 577 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: various injuries or ailments of the hoof, so you start 578 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: wrapping it up in things to protect it and to 579 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 1: heal it. And then it seems to be a case 580 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 1: of treatment becoming preventative, where it's realized, oh, you know, 581 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: let's just keep something wrapped around the hoof or at 582 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: least when we're using the horse, or at least in 583 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: certain environmental circumstances, and that can help make the hoof 584 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 1: last longer. 585 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 3: That's interesting. 586 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: Then there's this whole area of early hoof boots. Now 587 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 1: these are not to be confused with the hoof boots. 588 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,320 Speaker 1: Humans make and wear themselves so that their own feet 589 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: can look like hooves. If you're not familiar with these, 590 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: treat yourself, go do an image search. A lot of 591 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 1: them are cloven hoofs for like sador costumes, but other 592 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: times they are horse hooves for horse related dress. 593 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 3: When you i didn't realize at first. You meant like 594 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 3: that these were for costumes or recreational I was like, 595 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,879 Speaker 3: what is the functional reason to make your foot into 596 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 3: a hoof? 597 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: To be a satyr or to be a horsey? And 598 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 1: you find that, you know, some of them are very 599 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: goth looking, some of them more and more on the 600 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: furry end of the spectrum. But yeah, I saw some 601 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: of these recently at a at a Renaissance festival that 602 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: I went to with my family. There's a sadar guy 603 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 1: over there walking around on hoof boots. 604 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 3: Man, you think being in high heels for a long 605 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 3: time is rough? It turn your foot into a hoof. 606 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: I know it. It looks, it looks unpleasant, I mean, 607 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: but I guess it's like really awesome high heels, right, 608 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 1: I mean, nobody's wearing those for comfort. You're wearing them 609 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: to look cool. And the same goes for those those 610 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: weird goat boots you might be wearing to the renfest. 611 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: All right, So what we're talking about here not those 612 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: sorts of hoof boots. These are basically different approaches where 613 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: you would take like essentially like a leather sheath for 614 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: the hoof, sometimes augmented with metal studs on the bottom, 615 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,919 Speaker 1: essentially making you know, you think about basically the same 616 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: sort of adaptations you would make to a human boot. 617 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: You know, well, it's like wrap that, let's wrap that 618 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,399 Speaker 1: foot up in leather. Or it's a little slippery, let's 619 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: put some studs on the bottom of that so it 620 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 1: doesn't slip around. And it's also worth noting that modern 621 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: hoof boots exist as horseshoe alternatives. You see a lot 622 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: of this, particularly in the realm of natural horsemanship, sort 623 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: of like modern backing away from some of the the 624 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: aspects of horsemanship that might be considered a little bit 625 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: too rough or unnecessarily rough, especially for what we might 626 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: be asking of our horses in the modern age, and 627 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: so you might see a hoof boot, which in many 628 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: of these cases they look like like little like sports 629 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: shoes for a horse. They can slip those on, and 630 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,800 Speaker 1: I'm to understand that also sometimes they're used in addition 631 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: to a normal horseshoe. Equestrians out there listening to the episode, 632 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: if you have some thoughts on hoofboots right in, we 633 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: would love to see them. Same goes for people who 634 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,399 Speaker 1: just like dressing like satyrs. We also want to see 635 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: your hoof boots. Nobody needs to feel left out. But 636 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: then there's also the hippo sandal, and this is exactly 637 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 1: what it sounds like. It is a sandal of sorts 638 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: for horse hooves. These were especially common in the northwestern 639 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: Roman Empire and it was I think largely a temporary solution. 640 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: So the idea is, this is not something that was 641 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 1: nailed on. It was something that was strapped on, and 642 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: if you look at examples, it looks like basically like 643 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: a strap on horse hoof. You can see that like 644 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: these were generally made out of iron. They would cover 645 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,280 Speaker 1: the bottom of the hoof wall and then you would 646 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: strap it on, but it wasn't going to be on 647 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 1: their long term. Once you got wherever you were riding to, 648 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: or I don't know, after battle or whatever the scenario is, 649 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,319 Speaker 1: then it's time to take these hippo sandals off. And 650 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,479 Speaker 1: then eventually we get to the proper iron horseshoe, which 651 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: everyone knows what this looks like because it exists in 652 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: the public mind outside of mere equestrian interests, and even 653 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: outside of its use on the horse, it has become 654 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: an artifact of some significance across multiple cultures. It is 655 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 1: this U shaped twist of iron that is actually nailed 656 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: into place in the horse's hoof walls. The origin of 657 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 1: this particular invention or artifact is also difficult to well 658 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: nail down, if I guess you could say, with different 659 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: possibilities emerging, I've read that the Gulls are thought to 660 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: have possibly innovated this. Others have said the Celts may 661 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: have done it, or being among the first to do it, 662 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: and there's some evidence stemming from ancient grave sites. But 663 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,320 Speaker 1: one thing to keep in mind here is that initially 664 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: you might think, oh, well, they're made out of iron, 665 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: at least they're going to keep longer. But then we 666 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: have to realize iron would have been precious, and therefore 667 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: iron would often be reused or even re forged, thus 668 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: robbing us of evidence in many cases of these particular artifacts. 669 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: But it's possible that the use of iron horseshoes go 670 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: back to perhaps four hundred BCE. But like a lot 671 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: of this, the use of iron horseshoes is rather broadly 672 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: difficult to define and nail down because their use often 673 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: bumps up against and coexists with other forms of protecting 674 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: the hoof. So you might have a period of time 675 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 1: and a part of the world where some people are 676 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 1: using a horseshoe, using the hippo sandal or some other innovation, 677 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: or or indeed where there'll be a whole culture that's 678 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: not using anything and they're depending on stage just switching 679 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 1: out horses and find you know, realizing that they can't 680 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,359 Speaker 1: and shouldn't just run the horse to death. But they 681 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: may realize, well, we just need to switch them out more, 682 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,479 Speaker 1: and this is going to be our approach to making 683 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: the most out of a given hoof and making the 684 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: hoofs and therefore the horse itself lasts longer for us. 685 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,359 Speaker 1: Now the horse shoe itself has a life all its 686 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 1: own at this point outside of merely nailing it in 687 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: place in the bottom of a horse's foot. As we've 688 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: touched on a bit already, the horseshoe has long been 689 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,720 Speaker 1: seen as a good luck icon in many different cultures, 690 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 1: in many different times, and it's only kind of interesting 691 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 1: chase down like why this is? Like why did people 692 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: start admiring the horseshoe and nailing it up and attracting 693 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 1: some level of significance to it? 694 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 3: Very good question. I often find myself wondering about things 695 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 3: like this, like how did a certain item or image 696 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 3: come to have good magic or bad magic associated with it? 697 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So one of the first places I turned 698 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,720 Speaker 1: to for an answer on this is the book Magical 699 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: House Protection by Brian Hoggard, a former guest on the show. 700 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 1: I think it was on last October while you were 701 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,840 Speaker 1: on a parnal leave. But the book deals with various 702 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 1: things that people have hidden away in their walls and 703 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 1: under their floorboards throughout Europe, in the US predominantly, but 704 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,760 Speaker 1: also just throughout the world as a way of protecting 705 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: the house from bad luck, evil spirits, and what have you. 706 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 1: And Hoggard wrote that, yeah, you find horseshoes being associated 707 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 1: with good luck throughout the British Isles, Europe, the United 708 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 1: States quote, and it would seem the rest of the world. 709 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: He writes that the horseshoe is sometimes displayed pointing upward quote, 710 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 1: so that the luck doesn't run out, which I thought 711 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: was fun. You know this idea that it's like, well, 712 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 1: don't have it facing down, because then all the luck's 713 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: going to run out of the ends of the horseshoe. 714 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: But meanwhile, in other areas, other traditions. It is common 715 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,440 Speaker 1: to display the horseshoe with the points down. 716 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:26,640 Speaker 3: I think of it with the points down, I think 717 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 3: because I think of it hanging up just by a 718 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 3: nail through the middle. 719 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the easiest to do, right. If you hang 720 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,839 Speaker 1: it the other way, you's a little more complicated or well, 721 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,279 Speaker 1: I guess it depends. I mean, you g The thing 722 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 1: about the horseshoe, I guess too, is it is made 723 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,840 Speaker 1: to be nailed in place, and therefore it can be 724 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,840 Speaker 1: nailed in its intended place, the bottom of a horse's hoof, 725 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 1: or it can be nailed in place on a barn 726 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: wall or above your door or what have you. Anyway, 727 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: Hoggard highlights two main reasons for the horseshoes perceived power. One, 728 00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 1: and it's certainly a big one, is the closer relation 729 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,680 Speaker 1: between humans and their horses. You know, these are animals 730 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 1: that were highly important to the people who owned them 731 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,840 Speaker 1: and or used them. They were animals that we ultimately 732 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:16,120 Speaker 1: cared about, and we also had various, you know, supernatural 733 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,800 Speaker 1: traditions concerning them. And if not your actual mundane horses, 734 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 1: you have these ideas of mythic horses and so forth. 735 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:24,800 Speaker 1: And this is something that also influenced the use of 736 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 1: horse skulls and things like that in other traditions. The 737 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: other key fact that he highlights is that these are 738 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,320 Speaker 1: made of iron, and iron was thought to provide protection 739 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: against quote witchcraft and the fairy folk. Yes, and as 740 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,480 Speaker 1: Hoggard chronicles in that book, iron horseshoes and iron nails 741 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,759 Speaker 1: were often used in these household productive magics, hidden in 742 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,920 Speaker 1: walls and so forth. I also looked at this was 743 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,880 Speaker 1: an older paper, but I thought it highlighted some interesting concepts. 744 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,360 Speaker 1: This is an eighteen ninety six paper by Robert M. 745 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: Lawrence published in the Journal of American Folklore titled The 746 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 1: Folklore the Horseshoe, and Lawrence points out that the horseshoe, 747 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,840 Speaker 1: though shaped the way it's shaped for practical reasons, obviously 748 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: it would have essentially stood in or resembled pre existing 749 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: and potent symbols in different traditions and in different cultures, 750 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,239 Speaker 1: and he highlights some of the key ones here. So 751 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,040 Speaker 1: picture the horseshoe, just a standard horseshoe, and then think 752 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,040 Speaker 1: about these. The first one he mentions is the idea 753 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,839 Speaker 1: of an arch, just a protective arch, something that would 754 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 1: be even in an age before horseshoes positioned above a 755 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:36,239 Speaker 1: doorway or on a threshold. I believe he highlights the 756 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,879 Speaker 1: I want to say a Scottish tradition of having an 757 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:43,879 Speaker 1: arch shaped from from just the branch of a tree 758 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:45,319 Speaker 1: would sometimes be used like this. 759 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 3: Well, this may be saying the same thing as saying 760 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:49,919 Speaker 3: that it sort of resembles an arch, but it also 761 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 3: sort of resembles a doorway, which is like an arch 762 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,279 Speaker 3: and good luck symbols of various kinds are often put 763 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 3: on or around a doorway. 764 00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's a pretty solid one. The 765 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 1: next one he brings up is that a horseshoe is 766 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,919 Speaker 1: also reminiscent of a serpent, and therefore it could tie 767 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 1: into various traditions and involve the use of some sort 768 00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,960 Speaker 1: of a serpent symbol. Be that a serpent, that's you know, 769 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 1: I guess it depends what your snack is doing. It 770 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,440 Speaker 1: may be it may be straight, it may be coiled up, 771 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,279 Speaker 1: it may be eating its own tail. I mean, there's 772 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: so many different ways the snake has been utilized in 773 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 1: different iconography over the ages, but this one seems sensible. 774 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,080 Speaker 1: The idea of like the horseshoe as a serpent. Another 775 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 1: big one the horseshoe is the crescent moon. Now the 776 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,719 Speaker 1: next one is one that he writes that he thinks 777 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:39,799 Speaker 1: the evidence is mediocre for this, and he's kind of 778 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 1: begrudgingly mentioned that. He's like, I'm gonna mention it, but 779 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 1: I don't like it. And that's that the horseshoe could 780 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,640 Speaker 1: also stand in for various ophallic imagery. So the horseshoe 781 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:50,440 Speaker 1: as thallus. 782 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,879 Speaker 3: Huh, I need to have the case made for that. 783 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,359 Speaker 3: It's not evident to me. Yeah. 784 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 1: I looked around for more horses on this to see 785 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:02,800 Speaker 1: if there was anybody advocating for this, and I didn't 786 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,400 Speaker 1: find anything. Maybe it's out there and I just couldn't 787 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,240 Speaker 1: find it. I did see some images of some Roman 788 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:13,920 Speaker 1: phallic icons and charms that maybe kind of remind like 789 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 1: I could maybe see it, like there's more than one 790 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:20,239 Speaker 1: way to create a phallic symbol, and some of them 791 00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,720 Speaker 1: are I guess, more horseshoe like than others. But still 792 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,640 Speaker 1: I think maybe Lawrence is right and saying that maybe 793 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:30,080 Speaker 1: there's not as much sense behind this. This one I 794 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:34,279 Speaker 1: thought was interesting. The prong shape of the horseshoe as 795 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,000 Speaker 1: a deterrent to evil spirits or as a kind of trap. 796 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: So the idea that the horseshoe is either the thing 797 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,239 Speaker 1: that's gonna kind of like catch the limb of an 798 00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,279 Speaker 1: evil spirit, you know, you know, like, oh, you put 799 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,680 Speaker 1: your limb, your arm in there, and now you can't 800 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 1: get it out, or kind of like the prongs of 801 00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:53,520 Speaker 1: some sort of a poking fork. 802 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, that the horseshoe does have a shape that 803 00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,399 Speaker 3: seems to contain yeah. 804 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,640 Speaker 1: In this this lined up with a lot of what 805 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,719 Speaker 1: Hoggard wrote about concerning witch bottles, which bottles would often 806 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,000 Speaker 1: have a bunch of nails in them, and the idea 807 00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,520 Speaker 1: that like, here's this evil spirit coming into your house 808 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,880 Speaker 1: and then it smells some of your hair that's in 809 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:14,480 Speaker 1: this bottle that's buried. 810 00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:15,520 Speaker 3: Under the floorboards. 811 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,040 Speaker 1: Oh, it went into that bottle after that hair smell, 812 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,879 Speaker 1: and now it's found a whole bunch of nails. Good 813 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:22,240 Speaker 1: luck getting out of their spirit. 814 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 3: Iron nails maybe. 815 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I believe they would have been in 816 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,160 Speaker 1: most of these cases. Now, Lawrence also points to the 817 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,920 Speaker 1: sacred nature of the horse and the virtues of iron, 818 00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,640 Speaker 1: as Hoggart did. He points to examples from various cultures 819 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:40,640 Speaker 1: and traditions, including the ancient Romans, Arabic traditions, Chinese and 820 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,200 Speaker 1: Scottish traditions. So again, it's one of these things when 821 00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:46,919 Speaker 1: you start, it's just it's spread all over. Some other 822 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,520 Speaker 1: ideas that he mentions include the horseshoe is a thing 823 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:56,560 Speaker 1: that captures traps or transmits bad luck. The position is 824 00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,400 Speaker 1: sometimes important here, and like it could be a situation 825 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:01,880 Speaker 1: where it's like, Okay, here's the horseshoe. You got all 826 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,120 Speaker 1: your bad luck in that. Now leave it on the 827 00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,520 Speaker 1: ground and see if someone picks it up and catches 828 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:09,880 Speaker 1: all that bad luck you just put into it. Then 829 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,719 Speaker 1: there's an idea of numerology coming into it, particularly concerning 830 00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,960 Speaker 1: the number of nails in a horseshoe versus the number 831 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:22,200 Speaker 1: of nail holes. He writes, quote in Northumberland, the holes 832 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,440 Speaker 1: free of nails are counted as these indicate, presumably in years, 833 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,200 Speaker 1: how soon the finder of the shoe may expect to 834 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,640 Speaker 1: be married. And I guess in this case they're like, 835 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,360 Speaker 1: you know, you're out in the field, you find a horseshoe. 836 00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 1: It's like, oh, I found a horseshoe. Let's find out 837 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:39,439 Speaker 1: how long I'm going to be single? Which and again, 838 00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:41,800 Speaker 1: you know, we're not familiar with this tradition and we 839 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,040 Speaker 1: can kind of snicker at it. But I guess there 840 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:44,480 Speaker 1: are a lot of things like this. I mean, it's 841 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:48,080 Speaker 1: kind of on a very very like slender level. It's 842 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 1: almost like you know, not stepping on a crack, right, 843 00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,040 Speaker 1: you know, like we know that's not there's not accurate, 844 00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,080 Speaker 1: but we can't help but think about it when we 845 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,480 Speaker 1: do it. And so I can imagine there could be 846 00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:59,799 Speaker 1: this tradition whereas, oh I found a horseshoe exciting for me, 847 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:01,600 Speaker 1: Maybe I'm going to take this home and put it 848 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:05,640 Speaker 1: up over my doorway for good luck. But also what 849 00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,439 Speaker 1: if it's right? What if I am three years from 850 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,160 Speaker 1: finding my wife that sort of thing. 851 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,960 Speaker 3: Well, also, I mean things like this are done for fun, 852 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:18,279 Speaker 3: even if people don't necessarily believe it's literally predictive. I mean, 853 00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:20,560 Speaker 3: you know, she loves me, She loves me, not on 854 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 3: flower pedals and stuff. 855 00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, catching the flowers at a wedding and so forth. 856 00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,000 Speaker 1: The other thing you mentioned is that you could consider 857 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:33,160 Speaker 1: the horseshoe in its resemblance to a halo. M Okay, yeah, 858 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 1: so I don't remember that coming up at all in 859 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:38,120 Speaker 1: our episodes about the Halo. We did a series on 860 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,120 Speaker 1: the Halo, and there was a lot of fun. But 861 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:42,560 Speaker 1: I guess again, we might just think of it like, 862 00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:46,880 Speaker 1: what are some major icons and symbols within any given 863 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,839 Speaker 1: culture that could then here comes this artifact, this, here 864 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,600 Speaker 1: comes this horseshoe. What does that horseshoe remind us of? Now, 865 00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:58,880 Speaker 1: outside of all these superstitions and so forth and older traditions, 866 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,959 Speaker 1: the emblem of a horseshoe, I think really potent. One 867 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,240 Speaker 1: example of this that came to mind is the various 868 00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:10,520 Speaker 1: cartoon interpretations of this, as well as how it's presented. 869 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:14,719 Speaker 1: Sometimes in science textbooks. The horseshoe magnet has become a 870 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,480 Speaker 1: kind of fixed symbol for magnetism, despite the fact that 871 00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:22,160 Speaker 1: horseshoe magnets are technically obsolete, since like the nineteen fifties, 872 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,400 Speaker 1: you don't need a horseshoe shaped magnet. All the magnets 873 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,600 Speaker 1: on your fridge are likely not horseshoe shaped. 874 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,479 Speaker 3: I was thinking about the horseshoe magnet, and especially when 875 00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:35,080 Speaker 3: you were talking about the various magical powers associated with them, 876 00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:38,040 Speaker 3: because of the way horseshoe magnets are represented in cartoons, 877 00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:41,799 Speaker 3: as like emitting beams of magic power or with like 878 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:46,080 Speaker 3: zigzagging lightning of magnetic I don't know what, you know, 879 00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:48,800 Speaker 3: the like zappiness coming out of them. 880 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, it might be a scenario where 881 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,440 Speaker 1: you've stopped to think and maybe you're like, hey, do 882 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,880 Speaker 1: I know how magnets work? And then instantly you're struck 883 00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:59,839 Speaker 1: with that cartoon image or that or that little icon 884 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,400 Speaker 1: your science textbook growing up, where oh, yeah, there is 885 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,440 Speaker 1: horseshoe lightning bolts. Now I got it, Now I can 886 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:05,799 Speaker 1: move on. 887 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:07,000 Speaker 3: Now. 888 00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,200 Speaker 1: Another concept that some people may be thinking of, there's 889 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:14,880 Speaker 1: also this horseshoe theory of politics, which I'm to understand. 890 00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,799 Speaker 1: I didn't know a lot about it previously, but it's 891 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,719 Speaker 1: my understanding. It's also it's not something that's really that 892 00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,360 Speaker 1: much of a thing within actual political science, but you 893 00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:27,160 Speaker 1: sometimes see it in a lot of popular discourse about 894 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:33,200 Speaker 1: people's political leanings and their ideologies. This idea that instead 895 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:37,160 Speaker 1: of it being like a sliding linear scale between on 896 00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,800 Speaker 1: one on one end, like leftist extremism and on the 897 00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,040 Speaker 1: other end right wing extremism, and then in the middle, 898 00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:45,680 Speaker 1: you know, just just you know middle of the road, 899 00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,719 Speaker 1: you know, neutrality and so forth. Then instead of it 900 00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:52,120 Speaker 1: being shaped like that, we should really curve it, and 901 00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,480 Speaker 1: then it's more of a horseshoe, and that by virtue 902 00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,759 Speaker 1: of this horseshoe shape, it's illustrated that the extremes of 903 00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,080 Speaker 1: either side are actually closer than you might think. And 904 00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:04,480 Speaker 1: this is generally it's employed to talk about like either 905 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:08,840 Speaker 1: like an overarching theme, like perhaps that in the extremes 906 00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,960 Speaker 1: there's more of a draw towards like a strong leader 907 00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:16,000 Speaker 1: type or totalitarianism or something, or that you might find 908 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:20,319 Speaker 1: particular sentiments, say like an anti vaccine sentiment in both 909 00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 1: the far left and the far right, despite these groups 910 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:25,879 Speaker 1: having little else in common in terms of their ideology. 911 00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard people using this analogy in different ways. 912 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:34,120 Speaker 3: I mean, in I think in one sense it is 913 00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,920 Speaker 3: often used to mean that people think that at the 914 00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,239 Speaker 3: far extremes of the political spectrum people actually come to 915 00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,680 Speaker 3: share some political ideas. And then I think the other 916 00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,000 Speaker 3: idea is that is that at the furthest extremes of 917 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:51,160 Speaker 3: the political spectrum, people have more i don't know, sort 918 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:55,719 Speaker 3: of personality based or epistemic things in common apart from 919 00:52:55,800 --> 00:53:00,080 Speaker 3: political positions. And I'm not sure which version of the 920 00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,480 Speaker 3: of the model people are really talking about when they 921 00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:04,680 Speaker 3: invoke it often. 922 00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do. It kind of comes comes back 923 00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,120 Speaker 1: to our discussion earlier though about like how do we, 924 00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,120 Speaker 1: you know, interpreting data and thinking about like the underlying 925 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:17,000 Speaker 1: truth of a given situation or a mystery. Like obviously, 926 00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:19,640 Speaker 1: the way people think about the world. They're different ideologies 927 00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:21,800 Speaker 1: and their political viewpoints. I mean, there's a lot of 928 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,480 Speaker 1: complexity going on here, and that complexity can be overwhelming. 929 00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:27,759 Speaker 1: I mean, as we try to make sense of the 930 00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,120 Speaker 1: world's around us, the larger world and perhaps even the 931 00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:34,440 Speaker 1: closer world of our friend circles and our families and 932 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,480 Speaker 1: so forth, and it might be tempting to say, but hey, 933 00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:40,480 Speaker 1: look at this horseshoe, Look at this. I think this 934 00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,400 Speaker 1: explains it all. You know, it provides maybe a simple 935 00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,560 Speaker 1: model that may I mean, maybe it provides some insight, 936 00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,360 Speaker 1: but also a level of insight that at least you 937 00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,880 Speaker 1: can sort of nod your head at and think like, Okay, 938 00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:54,560 Speaker 1: well this kind of lines up with some of the 939 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:55,520 Speaker 1: things I'm observing. 940 00:53:55,880 --> 00:54:00,000 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I think another twist, for example, is whether 941 00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,240 Speaker 3: or not it is useful to think about political beliefs 942 00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:07,480 Speaker 3: as a spectrum at all, meaning that they extend along 943 00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:13,680 Speaker 3: a single dimension, or whether it's more useful to decompose 944 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:18,480 Speaker 3: political beliefs into a number of different types of I 945 00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:24,120 Speaker 3: don't know, preferences and personality traits. And then in a say, 946 00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:28,680 Speaker 3: a representative democracy with two major parties we represent, we 947 00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:34,759 Speaker 3: discover that political behavior manifests in varying degrees of like 948 00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,319 Speaker 3: or dislike for those main two parties. But you know, 949 00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:42,720 Speaker 3: that doesn't fully explain people's the depths of people's beliefs 950 00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:43,480 Speaker 3: and preferences. 951 00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:47,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, though in isolation it can at least seem to 952 00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,160 Speaker 1: make some sense. I had a case of this over 953 00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,440 Speaker 1: the weekend. I was in a city that has a 954 00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:56,000 Speaker 1: lot of crystal stores, so I wasn't necessarily out to 955 00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:58,680 Speaker 1: venture into a crystal store, but by virtue of where 956 00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:00,680 Speaker 1: I was, I just was going to wind up in 957 00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:04,000 Speaker 1: one eventually, and I was looking looking around at them. 958 00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:07,719 Speaker 1: Crystals are beautiful, you know, I think they can. They're 959 00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:09,800 Speaker 1: nice to look at, and maybe they're a nice focus 960 00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:11,279 Speaker 1: sometimes to take you out of the past in the 961 00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,040 Speaker 1: future and put you into the present. But they have 962 00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:15,960 Speaker 1: all these little notes on them about what they're good 963 00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,560 Speaker 1: for and what focus in the crystal will allegedly do 964 00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:21,440 Speaker 1: for you. And on one table I found one that 965 00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:25,480 Speaker 1: it was promised would help me connect with quote Christ consciousness, 966 00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:29,719 Speaker 1: and on the other it would help me communicate with extraterrestrials. 967 00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:33,440 Speaker 1: And so generally speaking, I don't know. I would expect 968 00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:37,959 Speaker 1: that people looking to connect with either would have rather 969 00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:40,640 Speaker 1: different world views, you know, the person with the Christ 970 00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,360 Speaker 1: crystal and the person with the extraterrestrial crystal, Like maybe 971 00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:46,839 Speaker 1: they want different things out of life. But also they 972 00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,439 Speaker 1: may have both wandered into this crystal store, which makes 973 00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:52,160 Speaker 1: me think that think of the you know, the ends 974 00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:56,040 Speaker 1: of the of the horseshoe, you know, arching towards each other. 975 00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:58,759 Speaker 3: Every crystal store I go in, I ask for their 976 00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:03,480 Speaker 3: Nixon consciousness crystal, What will help me communicate with Nixon? 977 00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:05,760 Speaker 3: He's out there somewhere. 978 00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:07,680 Speaker 1: Oh man, there's got to be a crystal. There's got 979 00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:11,279 Speaker 1: to be one that will do it. Unrelated to Nixon, though, 980 00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:13,600 Speaker 1: in discussing this, I am also thinking I don't think 981 00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:17,319 Speaker 1: Lawrence mentioned horns or antlers, but this would seem at 982 00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,919 Speaker 1: least just you know, off the top of my head, 983 00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,520 Speaker 1: this would seem to be like a potent symbol to 984 00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:25,680 Speaker 1: jump to and we're interpreting, like how people connected with 985 00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:30,200 Speaker 1: this horseshoe with this, you know, for all intensive purposes, 986 00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:34,600 Speaker 1: this new artifact that lines up with various symbols of 987 00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:39,920 Speaker 1: potents like the horns and antlers have long been and 988 00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:43,080 Speaker 1: still are things of symbolic power. 989 00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:46,040 Speaker 3: In a quite literal sense in their biological context, but 990 00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:48,000 Speaker 3: then in a metaphorical sense to humans. 991 00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:51,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right, Well, on that note, we're going 992 00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:52,879 Speaker 1: to go ahead and close this episode out, but we'd 993 00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:54,279 Speaker 1: love to hear from everyone out there if you have 994 00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:59,759 Speaker 1: thoughts about the horse, whof the horseshoe, interpretations of the horseshoe, 995 00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:03,839 Speaker 1: the use of hoof boots, be they equine hoof boots 996 00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:06,760 Speaker 1: or human hoof boots. Everything is fair game. 997 00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:06,880 Speaker 3: Right in. 998 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,160 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. In the meantime, you 999 00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,320 Speaker 1: can find all of our core episodes, so Stuff to 1000 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:13,760 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind on Tuesdays and Thursdays and the Stuff 1001 00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:15,880 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind podcast feed. On Mondays, we do 1002 00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,800 Speaker 1: listener mail, Wednesdays we do a short form Monster Factor Artifact, 1003 00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:20,800 Speaker 1: and on Fridays we do Weird House Cinema. That's our 1004 00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,200 Speaker 1: time to set aside most serious concerns and just talk 1005 00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:24,400 Speaker 1: about a weird film. 1006 00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:28,520 Speaker 3: Huge thanks to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 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