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Speaker 1: It is true. If you live your life detached from

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Speaker 1: people and you never ever need anybody or get close

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Speaker 1: to anybody or depending on anybody, you will probably have

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Speaker 1: an easier life. You will not have as many pain yeah,

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Speaker 1: easy like your life will probably have less like pain

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Speaker 1: in it, you know, because you're not going to be

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Speaker 1: as attached. You don't ever have to suffer a loss.

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Speaker 1: But I think the question really ask yourself is are

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Speaker 1: you looking for an easy life or like more of

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Speaker 1: a meaningful life. Welcome back and welcome to You Need

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Speaker 1: Therapy Podcast. I am your host, Cat, And okay, we

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Speaker 1: are coming all the way back around to the first

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Speaker 1: episode because today we are talking about attachment styles and

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Speaker 1: that is probably the number one most requested, most talked about,

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Speaker 1: most commented on, all of the things topic that I

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Speaker 1: get from you guys, And I love that because I

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Speaker 1: am an attachment focused human and in my work I

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Speaker 1: based like everything off of attachment theory. I look at

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Speaker 1: everything through a lens of attachment and it has helped

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Speaker 1: me help other people learn they're blind spots, relearned patterns

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Speaker 1: and beliefs, and understand themselves so much better. So if

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Speaker 1: you don't know what attachment theory is one I want

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Speaker 1: you guys to go back and listen to the very

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Speaker 1: first episode. Give me some grace on the fact that

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Speaker 1: I really didn't know what I was doing or how

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Speaker 1: to really lead a conversation on a podcast. But I

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Speaker 1: think I did an okay job. But that will give

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Speaker 1: you the behind the scenes info. Today, me and my

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Speaker 1: friend Megan go into just the insecure types of attachment,

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Speaker 1: and that's the two of them. We go into two

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Speaker 1: of them, avoidant and anxious, and it we go in

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Speaker 1: a little bit more detail. Obviously, we're going to do

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Speaker 1: more episodes like this, so just hold on. But I'm

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Speaker 1: excited for you guys to hear this, and I hope

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Speaker 1: you guys understand some of this and it hits sits

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Speaker 1: with you well, and it helps you understand yourself a

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Speaker 1: little better. UM. Always take this stuff like ounce by ounce,

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Speaker 1: like it doesn't have to be like a hundred thou

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Speaker 1: pounds weighing on you after you get all this information,

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Speaker 1: because it is a lot, and if it feels heavy

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Speaker 1: or it feels a lot, or your mind is going

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Speaker 1: a million different ways, reach out to somebody and talk

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Speaker 1: about it. Because this information to me feels very UM simple,

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Speaker 1: and it feels very like almost like I'm desensitized to

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Speaker 1: it because it's what I work with all day, every day.

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Speaker 1: But if it's new information to you, it can kind

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Speaker 1: of signal some thoughts and signals some like you know,

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Speaker 1: lightbulb moments that might feel like a lot. So if

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Speaker 1: this stuff is hitting you, I suggest, hey, go talk

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Speaker 1: to a professional, Go talk to a friend, go talk

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Speaker 1: to somebody, say a journal, get some of this stuff out. Um.

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Speaker 1: As always, you can follow me at cat dot de

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Speaker 1: fata on Instagram. You can follow the podcast at at

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Speaker 1: you Need Therapy Podcast, and you can join our self

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Speaker 1: Love Club, which is a newsletter that I sent out

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Speaker 1: every single Monday when a new episode drops, and you

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Speaker 1: can sign up for that on our website at you

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Speaker 1: Need Therapy podcast dot com. And uh again, I want

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Speaker 1: to say an extra special thank you for my friend Megan,

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Speaker 1: who was on this episode with me. And without keeping

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Speaker 1: guys waiting any longer here, it's one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: episodes ever, my conversation on attachment with Megan. Okay, you guys,

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Speaker 1: if you're newer, great, if you've been here from the beginning,

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Speaker 1: also great. But the first episode I ever recorded was

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Speaker 1: an episode I did by myself, and it was on

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Speaker 1: attachment theory. And what I did was I took somebody

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Speaker 1: who had no idea what it was and kind of

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Speaker 1: walked her through the very very very basics of it,

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Speaker 1: and throughout the conversation she kind of identified what she

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Speaker 1: felt she was and we kind of talked about what

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Speaker 1: that looked like. It's pretty cool. And since then I've

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Speaker 1: gotten so many messages, so many questions from friends from

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Speaker 1: like random people I don't know, um from clients about

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Speaker 1: like that was so helpful and cool. I've never heard

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Speaker 1: of that before. I can't figure out what I am.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, well, that was just like an

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Speaker 1: opening to the story. And so also it's okay if

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Speaker 1: you don't know what you are to like it's like

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Speaker 1: you don't. Not everybody needs to know their attachment style,

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Speaker 1: like everybody needs to know their intiogram number. Like not

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Speaker 1: every needs to know that. However, I do. Like me

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Speaker 1: and Megan, both Megan and I both thought it would

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Speaker 1: be really interesting and cool to do a whole episode

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Speaker 1: talking about the insecure attachment styles and so especially because

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think for you too. I have so

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Speaker 1: many clients who either talk about it like I don't

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Speaker 1: know what I am, or I don't know I think

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Speaker 1: this would be helpful, I've heard about this, or like

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Speaker 1: I was working with a client today who was like, no,

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Speaker 1: I've never heard about this, and I know, at least

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Speaker 1: for me, I first learned about attachment really in a

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Speaker 1: place where I actually understood it when I was in

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Speaker 1: treatment myself, and it was such a relief because I

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Speaker 1: was like, holy shits, balls, there are other people, like

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Speaker 1: there is a name for how I am, And if

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Speaker 1: this is what they're telling me is true, then that

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean I'm super messed up. Like that means there's

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Speaker 1: actually a lot of other people who are the same

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Speaker 1: as me, and there's actually like a reason and explanation

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Speaker 1: to the way out of it too. Yeah. Not only

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Speaker 1: does it totally like frame the way I do work

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Speaker 1: with clients, it also was so shame or ucing for

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Speaker 1: me because I'm like, oh, like, wow, there's a name

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Speaker 1: for this, yea and yes, and so what I want

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Speaker 1: to do. It's kind of give a brief overview for

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Speaker 1: those of you who haven't listened to the first episode,

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Speaker 1: a brief overview of what attachment theory is and kind

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Speaker 1: of why we use it, and then we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: some like I don't know the right words, caveats, but

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Speaker 1: some things we want you to know before we go

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Speaker 1: into this. And then we're going to do two more

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Speaker 1: in depth looks at anxious attachment and avoid attachment, and

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Speaker 1: we'll just kind of like piggyback off each other in this.

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Speaker 1: We could talk about attachment probably for five hours. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: and obviously, like I mean, this is the whole thing

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Speaker 1: even about individual therapy in general, but hopefully this is

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Speaker 1: an introduction to y'all and you're like, wow, that's some

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Speaker 1: really good information, helps you get thinking, but like we

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Speaker 1: cannot fix or really like you cannot solve your attachments

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Speaker 1: injuries on your own. Like the best way to heal

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Speaker 1: injuries from attachment or insecure attachment is through uh, like

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Speaker 1: a positive attachment experience, which is a lot of what

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Speaker 1: can happen in therapy. So the other thing is is like,

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Speaker 1: you know, get your information on attachment, listen to the podcast,

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Speaker 1: read that sort of thing. But it also is a

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Speaker 1: thing also where we could explain to you all day

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Speaker 1: how to ride a bike, but you're not going to

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Speaker 1: know how unless you actually go ride it and youghts

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Speaker 1: were actually going to therapy or getting in some sort

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Speaker 1: of relationship that can help you heal the injuries that

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Speaker 1: you've suffered. Is like really the path to healing, which

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Speaker 1: probably might not make sense to you yet if you

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Speaker 1: don't know what attachment is. But I'm glad you said that,

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Speaker 1: and we'll say more on that at the end as well.

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Speaker 1: Before we started, I'm just going to do a very

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Speaker 1: brief This is a very reefation of what attachment theory is.

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Speaker 1: But attachment theory is a school of thought that has

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Speaker 1: been developed. It started by being developed by a guy

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Speaker 1: named John Bowlby and since has had a lot of

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Speaker 1: influence from other people, one including Mary Ainsworth who actually

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Speaker 1: added a lot of good information, and then Dan Seagle

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Speaker 1: more recently. All that probably means nothing to you, guys,

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to say this is not my information.

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Speaker 1: Did not this theory at all, But this is the

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Speaker 1: framework in which I and Megan view most of, if

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Speaker 1: not all, of our clients and kind of how to

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Speaker 1: kind of see where they how they developed, and then

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Speaker 1: what we need to do in order to help heal

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Speaker 1: some of their wounds. So attachment theory basically says and

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Speaker 1: feel free to say jump in here, Megan, but it

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Speaker 1: basically says that like our earliest experiences and relationships have

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Speaker 1: the greatest effect on developing kind of how we view

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Speaker 1: the world, how we view relationships, and how we get

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Speaker 1: our needs met, and based on how our needs are

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Speaker 1: met as children and babies, first and foremost, we adjust

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Speaker 1: our needs or our attachment to our needs in order

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Speaker 1: to feel safe or I struggle saying this word secure

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Speaker 1: even if you don't feel secure or get your own

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Speaker 1: needs met. I mean, the thing about this is that,

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Speaker 1: like when we jump into talking about the insecure attachment styles,

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Speaker 1: which are anxious and avoidant, like, these are strategies for

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Speaker 1: the ways that we do relationship with people, so they

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Speaker 1: have there's a reason that this is the way you

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Speaker 1: do it. It's a strategy for doing relationship that keeps

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Speaker 1: you safe and also probably keeps you pretty disconnected. But

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Speaker 1: I think it's important to know this isn't just like, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's something wrong with you, let's fix it. It's a

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Speaker 1: strategy to survival, learn to survive in relationship. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: which I'm always like, humans are so smart. It's like

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Speaker 1: we are so smart. So basically, the theory in the

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Speaker 1: most basic of terms says that humans are born help

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Speaker 1: us and hardwired to search too, attach to caregivers to

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Speaker 1: get their needs met. Usually this would be like your mom,

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Speaker 1: but it could be your dad, or it could be

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Speaker 1: whatever person is close to you, whoever is providing. It

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Speaker 1: can be yeah, I mean I get people who are

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Speaker 1: like but I had a nanny and if you're got yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'll have to figure out what this looks like for you.

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Speaker 1: Or I had a grandparent lived next door, so it's

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Speaker 1: hard to name one person. Yeah. And so if your

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Speaker 1: needs were met with success and seventy of the time,

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Speaker 1: which is like a heart, how do you know what

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Speaker 1: the percentages? But like basically, if the majority, over the

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Speaker 1: majority of the time, your needs and your cries for

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Speaker 1: attention and love and support were met, you would develop

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Speaker 1: it's called a secure attachment. If they were not met,

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Speaker 1: you would develop what it's called insecure attachment. There are

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Speaker 1: three types. There are two types of organized insecure attachment,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about those, and there's one

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Speaker 1: type of disorganized um insecure attachment, and we're not going

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Speaker 1: to talk about that one, right, And I think it's

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Speaker 1: also like, let's talk a little bit about when we

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Speaker 1: say the word needs, like I often have clients who

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Speaker 1: are like, oh, yeah, my parents gave me everything they needed.

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Speaker 1: You know, they weren't that bad. They never like hit

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Speaker 1: me or anything. I'm like, okay, if the car is

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Speaker 1: that you weren't never hit you, like, whoa, you know

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Speaker 1: we're starting. So the one of the best like studies

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Speaker 1: I like on attachment is the one with the wire There.

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Speaker 1: Somebody did a study I don't even know who with

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Speaker 1: two gorillas and one of the gorillas was a wire

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Speaker 1: just like totally wires and um, but it had milk

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Speaker 1: like for the baby gorillas to drink out of. And

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Speaker 1: then the other gorilla that they made the mock gorilla

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Speaker 1: um was warm, like it had warmth and it had

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Speaker 1: fur and it had like all of the kind of

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Speaker 1: makings of a real life gorilla, but it didn't have

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Speaker 1: any milk. UM. And what they found in the studies

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Speaker 1: is that like the overwhelming majority of the time the

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Speaker 1: baby gorillas went without the milk and the nutrients from

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Speaker 1: the milk to go be with the the fake gorilla

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Speaker 1: that was warm and like nurturing and cuddly, And so

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Speaker 1: I think that's really important to think about like when

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Speaker 1: you're saying like, oh, my parents didn't hit me and

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Speaker 1: they gave me like food, clothing, shelter, Like we're talking

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Speaker 1: about needs far beyond that it's emotional needs. Yeah, could

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Speaker 1: they also like when you were crying, Like did they

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Speaker 1: just shove a bottle in your mouth? Or were they

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Speaker 1: also able to like a tune to you and nurture

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Speaker 1: you and soothe you? Um? And so I think even

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Speaker 1: just helpful to know, like when we're talking about needs,

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Speaker 1: we're looking way beyond Maslow's hierarchy of like, yeah, you've

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Speaker 1: got food, clothing, shelter and weren't beaten. Yeah, thank you

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Speaker 1: for saying that. And what's what I always say to

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Speaker 1: people is like we were born to need people. We

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Speaker 1: were born to connect. You were born attached to your mother.

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Speaker 1: When you came out of her womb, like you you

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Speaker 1: had to be cut apart literally, So it's like we

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Speaker 1: were born to connect. And something that is so interesting

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Speaker 1: to me is that humans, out of any other species,

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Speaker 1: have the longest period where they're vulnerable and kind of

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Speaker 1: like rely on um other people to help meet all

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Speaker 1: of their needs. We're the only mammal species who have

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Speaker 1: like no form of protection when you're born, Like, if

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Speaker 1: you think about it, I don't know. I used to

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Speaker 1: really love giraffes and like baby giraffes come out of

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Speaker 1: the womb and they can run. Yeah, you can watch

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Speaker 1: draft video birth video. We can't even walk, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: we can't. We can't crawl, we can't walk. We have

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Speaker 1: zero ability to protect ourselves. I didn't that's so interesting.

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Speaker 1: So okay, let's describe Secure first really quickly, and then

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Speaker 1: there's a couple of things I want to say before

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Speaker 1: we get into the insecurity set. Sound do you want

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Speaker 1: to describe Secure or do you want me to? I think,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's okay going how we've done

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Speaker 1: it is that what do you mean you can lead?

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Speaker 1: And then all that okay, Secure that is anywhere between

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Speaker 1: fifty and of humans, which is so can I just say,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know that statistic, but that actually gives

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Speaker 1: me a lot of hope for the world. I know

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Speaker 1: some people might think to themselves like, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: glass half empty, But to me, I'm like, WHOA, I

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Speaker 1: did not know it was that high. Um. I just

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Speaker 1: learned that this week when we were kind of preparing

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Speaker 1: for the episode, And so I think I looked through

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Speaker 1: the world with like a much different lens and like,

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Speaker 1: and I think people are more attached and I thought

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Speaker 1: there were there were more there's more secure people out

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Speaker 1: there than I imagine. You know, it's interesting in different

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Speaker 1: experiences because when I learned about this, I am a

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Speaker 1: person who like memorizes facts for tests and not like

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Speaker 1: understands the concepts. So like I could memorize the percentages

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Speaker 1: of everything, but um so I remember that sticking out

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Speaker 1: to me and at the same time, I was like,

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Speaker 1: there's no way that's true. Yeah, I feel the same

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Speaker 1: wa Okay, I still do. Like I'm like, oh, that's

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Speaker 1: really hopeful, but I'm like, how and yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: that will make more sense when once we describe how

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Speaker 1: we view a lot of these things. But per the research,

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Speaker 1: it's fifty per cent um and these um are they

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Speaker 1: like babies and infants that experience a sense of security

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Speaker 1: and safety with their caregiver. The mom shows up basically

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Speaker 1: or whoever it is shows up. They grow up with

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Speaker 1: the belief that people are good. Um. They believe their

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Speaker 1: partners are going to be loving and carrying to them.

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Speaker 1: They're able to communicate their needs well without a lot

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Speaker 1: of hesitation and insecurity. Um, they're not overly sensitive. They

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Speaker 1: are not overly sensitive about being rejected, which I'd say

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Speaker 1: that with a caveat everybody has it a tinge of

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Speaker 1: sensitivity to that because I don't think it would be

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Speaker 1: a little bit crazy if nobody if somebody was like,

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Speaker 1: I don't care about being rejected. Um. Yeah. The biggest thing,

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Speaker 1: even thinking in secure attachment is they can face rejection

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Speaker 1: and then self southe and move on, whereas some of

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Speaker 1: the more insecure styles, like it's the moving on part

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Speaker 1: is the part that doesn't happen well. And they what

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Speaker 1: I would see in somebody secure too. It's like when

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Speaker 1: you say, I would say they can soothe and move on,

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Speaker 1: like somebody who's secure can feel pain and then they

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Speaker 1: can lean into other humans rather than running away from them,

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Speaker 1: or they can they can soothe with the human. They

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Speaker 1: don't soothe by a human, like the other human doesn't

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Speaker 1: do the soothing for them and they don't do it alone.

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Speaker 1: Does that make sense? And then um, basically they're like

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Speaker 1: programmed to like believe that people are good, Like that's

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Speaker 1: the basis of it, that people will be there, they

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Speaker 1: leap good. They are comfortable with intimacy. They don't. They're

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Speaker 1: not over shares and they're not under shares, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: they can set pretty appropriate boundaries. They can respect other

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Speaker 1: people's boundaries. They obviously, like are humans too, and so

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Speaker 1: have areas where they're stronger and some and not stronger

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Speaker 1: than the other. But I really also like the picture

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Speaker 1: of like the secure base of um. That's important, one

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Speaker 1: of the best pictures I have of like because I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: what does this even look like or what does this

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Speaker 1: look like as a child, But the child who really

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Speaker 1: was able to create the secure attachment if you imagine

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Speaker 1: them on a playground, like they go to the playground

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Speaker 1: with their primary attachment figure, so mom, dad, grandparent, whatever,

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Speaker 1: and that figure is sitting there like watching them get

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Speaker 1: on the play like the slide or whatever. And the

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Speaker 1: kid is sort of like and obviously this is a

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Speaker 1: child that's old enough to go on the slide by

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Speaker 1: themselves or something, but the parents sitting there, they're watching them.

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Speaker 1: The child starts to go off by themselves to go

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Speaker 1: on the jungle gym, they're kind of looking back at mom,

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Speaker 1: and Mom's looking at the child, not looking at the phone,

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Speaker 1: not talking on the phone, not looking at the book,

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Speaker 1: and Mom's able to say to the child, like even

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Speaker 1: verbally or with their eyes, like hey, yeah, you're okay.

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Speaker 1: And the child goes and then they look back at

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Speaker 1: mom and they're like, am I okay. Mom's like you're okay,

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Speaker 1: and they keep going, and they kind of do this

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Speaker 1: dance where they're really like continuing to look back at

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Speaker 1: mom and see like am I okay? And Mom's like

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Speaker 1: you're okay? And they keep going. And then you know,

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Speaker 1: if something happens where they're not okay, they can go

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Speaker 1: back to mom and mom can like help them soothe,

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Speaker 1: and then they can go back out and explore the world.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I almost think like in today's world,

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Speaker 1: or at least in the way I grew up, like

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Speaker 1: where independence was just like extremely valued. It was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we want to just drop you off of the playground

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Speaker 1: by yourself and you can just navigate this by yourself.

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Speaker 1: So even the idea of the secure attachment where the

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Speaker 1: parent is that attuned and kind of checking in and

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Speaker 1: then you're going out and exploring and checking in and

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Speaker 1: going out and exploring, I'm like, oh wow, that child

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Speaker 1: actually grows up to be more independent than the ones

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Speaker 1: that's just dropped off to figure it out by themselves.

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Speaker 1: I think it's also important to know there's consistently been

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Speaker 1: shifts in how people are telling you to raise your kids,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I don't think anybody has ever come

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Speaker 1: up with a completely hunters and right to protocol, and

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Speaker 1: especially with technology, it's like, yeah, that's kids are dropped

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Speaker 1: off with a cell phone, call me if you need me.

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Speaker 1: And it's so I don't really want to get into

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Speaker 1: too much of that, but it's it's interesting to see

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Speaker 1: the I would I would love to see a study

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Speaker 1: of like the coht hordes of like the different kinds

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Speaker 1: of attachment during different periods of generations of like what

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Speaker 1: it looks like. Yeah, because it's like even I'm like

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Speaker 1: you're saying independence is highly regarded and interdependence needing somebody

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Speaker 1: else is like like, what's wrong with you? Which is

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Speaker 1: but actually it's sort of like when I had a

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Speaker 1: client I feel like recently that was like I don't

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Speaker 1: want to be nice to myself because then I'll never change,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh wow, no, actually being nice to

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Speaker 1: yourself is how you're going to change. And so it's

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Speaker 1: a similar way of like this idea that like actually,

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Speaker 1: if you do interdependence, which is like showing up being

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Speaker 1: able to support meat needs, have needs, those sorts of things,

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Speaker 1: it actually makes you far more independent than this like

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Speaker 1: other way of just like pull yourself up by your bootstraps,

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Speaker 1: like pull yourself up by your bootstraps actually ends up

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Speaker 1: creating someone so needy but like detached from the needy

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Speaker 1: stuck not know another steck, but we'll get into that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I do like how you're talking about how like

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Speaker 1: you know, we're constantly evolving, and I remember, like even

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Speaker 1: talking to somebody now, the general consensus is like breast

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Speaker 1: is best, like the breast of beings your kid. But

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Speaker 1: like back in the nineties or late eighties wherever formula

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Speaker 1: was coming out and all of the advertising was like

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Speaker 1: formula is best, um, And so parents are doing the

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Speaker 1: best they can with the information they think like at

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Speaker 1: any time, and that's constantly changing. Yeah. So that's just

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Speaker 1: basically all we're going to talk about with Secure, and

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Speaker 1: maybe we might talk about it more later. Before we

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Speaker 1: get into this. There's a couple of things I want

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Speaker 1: to say. One of them is going right off of

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Speaker 1: what you just said. None of what we're talking about

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Speaker 1: is to like blame a parent or a caregiver for

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Speaker 1: screwing up their kids exactly, because it's first of all,

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Speaker 1: I do believe that everybody, for the most part the time,

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Speaker 1: does the best they can with what they know. And

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Speaker 1: a lot of the like non attunement that we're going

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00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 1: to talk about doesn't come from a place of somebody

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Speaker 1: actually just blatantly ignoring their kid or blatantly being mean

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Speaker 1: or dismissive of their kid. They might just have bad timing,

390
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,120
Speaker 1: they might be preoccupied with other things that they're out

391
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Speaker 1: of their control. And so it's not that these people

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Speaker 1: weren't paying attention, it's that they weren't paying attention in

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Speaker 1: the way that the kid needed it. Basically not we're

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00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,959
Speaker 1: not talking about intent, we're talking about impact, right, And

395
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Speaker 1: we're not here to judge if anybody's parents is like good, bad,

396
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,679
Speaker 1: right or wrong. Like we all had human parents with

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Speaker 1: gifts and limitations. And I'll say that like over and

398
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 1: over and over again because it's so true. But I

399
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Speaker 1: will say, like, this is the reason why you do

400
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 1: your own therapy and do your own therapeutic work is

401
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,679
Speaker 1: because if you don't look at where you came from,

402
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 1: you will continue to repeat the cycles over and over

403
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 1: and over again through your lack of awareness. It's just

404
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 1: like what happens. And like, um, somebody who's telling me

405
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Speaker 1: recently about a quote they heard about like we have

406
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Speaker 1: to defy our own parents to actually be able to

407
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,400
Speaker 1: step into living our own lives. And I probably miss

408
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,199
Speaker 1: quoting that, but what they're saying is like, ultimately we

409
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,640
Speaker 1: need to challenge where we came from and like take

410
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Speaker 1: what works for us and leave the rest and go on.

411
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Speaker 1: But if we never sought to evaluate that, you're just

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Speaker 1: repeat it right, right, and we'll talk more at the

413
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Speaker 1: end about because what what is true is that this

414
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Speaker 1: isn't static, so it's very fluid and you can move

415
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,199
Speaker 1: back and forth in like your attachment. You can your

416
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 1: attachment can change, and it can change for the better.

417
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Speaker 1: And so if you are yeah, which yeah, thank god,

418
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Speaker 1: and if you identify with some of these insecure traits,

419
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Speaker 1: then well I want to offer you is like hope

420
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 1: and the fact that like awareness is the first step

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00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 1: to anything. And um, Dan Segel, who is somebody who's

422
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 1: done a lot of research and writing and just really

423
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 1: great stuff with attachment theory, he said, if I was

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Speaker 1: going to say this at the end, but I'm gonna

425
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:23,719
Speaker 1: say it now. If you can make sense of your

426
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,239
Speaker 1: attachment wound, you can have a better chance of not

427
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 1: continuing the narrative. Perfect, That's what I meant earlier, he said.

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Speaker 1: We're meaning making people, and so we create internal narratives.

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Speaker 1: In order to create change, we first must I said this,

430
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 1: this is Catherine, and first we must find awareness of

431
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: the problem, then create new understanding of what happened. Because

432
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 1: humans are meaning making, we will make meaning out of

433
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 1: anything to survive and to move forward. And so what

434
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: we're telling you is that you have the opportunity to

435
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 1: create a new story. You can realize that maybe the

436
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 1: story you told yourself when you're younger wasn't true, and

437
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 1: mom wasn't ignoring you because you're whatever it is that

438
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 1: you came up with. It could have been something else,

439
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 1: or maybe she wasn't even ignoring you. That's just how

440
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: you felt. And um, yeah, and so what did he

441
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 1: say that? I oh, he said, having difficult experiences early

442
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: in life is less important than whether we found a

443
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 1: new way to make sense of how those experiences affected us.

444
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 1: Making sense as a sort of strength and resilience. Making

445
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,479
Speaker 1: sense is essential to our well being and happiness, and

446
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 1: so we're offering you a way to make sense and

447
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 1: because it's then that you get to do something differently,

448
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: like I still like have so much of my own

449
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 1: attachment stuff that shows up to my own relationship. And

450
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 1: we'll get into this when we're talking more about it.

451
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 1: But when I start to notice, like when I start

452
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 1: to have a thought of like, oh, well, I don't

453
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: really care about this person, I don't really need this person,

454
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: I can say to myself because I know where that

455
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 1: comes from, like, hey, Megan, like that's probably not really

456
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 1: how you feel, um, And it seems like you might

457
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: be kind of hurt right now or something's going on.

458
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: So what do you need to do and where can

459
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: you get space to kind of navigate that? Which that's

460
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: the hope is like we don't ideally you would move

461
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: towards being more secure, but the way that you do

462
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: that is not by like getting rid of however. You

463
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 1: started out by being able to notice it and then

464
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 1: help yourself in that. Yeah. So before we get into

465
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: each one kind of what, there's a couple of things

466
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: I just want to go through, And one is kind

467
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: of what we're talking about. Now, this is not research.

468
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 1: This is the school of Cat and Megas from Well

469
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: and I don't guess. I'll speak for myself and you can.

470
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 1: So this is my my interpretation of these things based

471
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: on my own work as being a therapist and working

472
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: with the hundred of hundreds of clients that I've seen.

473
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: I did not read this in a book. I think

474
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: therapists would also. Some therapist would agree with this, But

475
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: I don't always think You're not always going to be

476
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: a hundred percent avoidant, a hundred anxious, a hundred percent secure,

477
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,959
Speaker 1: Like that's not really what I ever see. Would you

478
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,959
Speaker 1: hear these things, you are probably not going to say

479
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 1: every single thing that we say about it fits for you,

480
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: and you might fit with parts of each attachment style.

481
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 1: And I was talking to Megan before and I was like,

482
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 1: I wish people would view this like they view the Inniagram.

483
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: It's how like when you go through the Instagram, people

484
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: will tell you over and over you will have traits

485
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 1: of each one. It's not about the traits you have,

486
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: it's why you do the behaviors. And so as you

487
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: kind of listen to us talk about this, I want

488
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: to encourage you to listen to more of like the

489
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 1: unconscious motivation of your behavior that's going to lead you

490
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: to your attachment style. Um. And similar to the Instagram,

491
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 1: the hope is like even with Instagram, the point of

492
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 1: knowing whatever number you are isn't so you can be like,

493
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 1: um seven awesome. Um, it's like, okay, what number do

494
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: you move towards in health and how can you move

495
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 1: that direction? And so similarly like this is like yeah,

496
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: I lean avoidant or II lean anxious, But it's like, okay, great,

497
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: now that we know that, how do you move towards

498
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 1: more security for yourself and the truth about the which

499
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: I feel like this is like a hot point for

500
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: me because I feel like and this is my experience

501
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: because I lean more towards anxious. So I would love

502
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: to hear you. But it is such a hot point

503
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 1: to me when that people don't see so much that

504
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: the underpinnings of both are the same feelings. The feelings

505
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: are exactly the same. So there's there's a fear of

506
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: abandonment and in rejection and both both insecure styles. Now

507
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: how you deal with it is different. So it's like

508
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: what you said the other day, like the wrapping paper

509
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 1: is different inside. If you're on an if you have

510
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: an insecure attachment, you fear abandonment and rejection, no matter

511
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: if you're avoidance or anxious, So no one is better

512
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 1: than the other. Right, It's like it's we talked about

513
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: this in so many other episodes too. It's like some

514
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: things just look more glamorous than others, like societally. So

515
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: like we've talked about this with eating disorders, it's like, oh,

516
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: in some ways, like anorexia is praised over Bolivia, but

517
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 1: it's like, what, there's dysfunction in both. So yeah, it's

518
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 1: really important in this because I mean, I'll say I

519
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 1: think the anxious people of the world get the bad

520
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: rap or it's like they're crazy, but the avoidance just

521
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: sort of get like they're independent, they're praised, they can

522
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,239
Speaker 1: be more praised. Nobody's praised for being ancient or like

523
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: the avoidant people like, yeah, we're better at looking like

524
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: we have it all together, but underneath, it's like both people.

525
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: I mean, even research like when they did this there's

526
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: a study on um of attachment with babies, and what

527
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: they found is they tested the cortisol level in the

528
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: anxious baby um and in the woidant baby, and the

529
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: courtisol level, which is a stress hormone, is exactly the

530
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: same in both baby, even though the anxious baby was

531
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: the one that kept crying, crying, crying, couldn't be soothed,

532
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: and the avoided baby is the one that actually played

533
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: looking like calmly by itself. The stress hormone, the cortisol

534
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: levels and both babies, one screaming one playing by itself

535
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: quietly was the same. You know what, I want to

536
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: say this before and then we'll go into talk about

537
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: avoid it, but I'm gonna leave out as many details

538
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: as i can. But UM, I think that is wildly

539
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: fascinating because I remember I might have said this on

540
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,479
Speaker 1: a podcast before, but I remember one time being in

541
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: here with you and processing something in my life and saying,

542
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: it sucks so bad that I have to feel like

543
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: this and that person is fine. And you said to me,

544
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: because the person has talking, I have I leaned towards

545
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: anxious and this person, um, we assume leads towards avoidance.

546
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: And you said, I don't think that's really what's happening.

547
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: She was like, really, it's like you have you can

548
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: have gratitude for being able to feel, and this person

549
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: is like cut off, like they don't even they're feeling,

550
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: but they don't know at all. I don't know. They

551
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: think they're fine. And so that was offered me, like hope,

552
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: and like, oh, I don't have the short end of

553
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: the stick. I might not like the stick I have,

554
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: but I don't have the short end. Yeah, like the

555
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: other person. And I'm glad you remember me saying that,

556
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: because I'm like, also, the other person has probably run

557
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: to the next extreme thing they need to continue to

558
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: like numb out and avoid their lives, and whether that's

559
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: work or something like more sepe or like alcohol or

560
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: drugs or whatever they run to. Whereas like, yeah, you're

561
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: experiencing all the pain and the emotions of the event. Um.

562
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: And I was thinking to myself even when I was

563
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: telling you that, like, gosh, there's a part of me

564
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: that's like deeply grateful that I would not be where

565
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: you are are, But there's another part of me that's like, man,

566
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: I wish I could be. Yeah, So let's get into

567
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: avoidant slash dismissive attachment. Now, well we already said this,

568
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: but I lean more towards anxious and Megan leads leans

569
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: more towards avoidance, So you might offer some more experience

570
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: and what some of this feels like, because I will

571
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: describe it and you might be able to give some

572
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: personal I have a lot of experiment experience with dating

573
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: these people because, as you know, like our wounds bit

574
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: each other so well, so an anxious person like they

575
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: need people to feel secure. An avoidant person kind of

576
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: needs somebody to need them so they don't have to

577
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: need and so we fit so well. However, what happens

578
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: is eventually the avoidant person is like, oh my god,

579
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: this isn't what I signed up for, and then so

580
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: they run away and then I'm left here being like,

581
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: but we'll get more into that, which is good insight.

582
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: I actually I lean actually mostly secure now, um, but

583
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: if I do lean toward one side, it's definitely avoidant.

584
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: And history just wanted to make sure that you guys

585
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: knew that your therapist is healthy. Yeah, is secure? Like, um,

586
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: please I'll send you. I'll show you the bill of

587
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: how much money has spent about therapy and how many

588
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: hours to earn secure attachment. But yeah, I lean avoidance

589
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: and I have actually historically dated other avoidance which isn't

590
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: super uncommon, but that's sort of the experience I have.

591
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: And it's funny because even when I was dating Eric

592
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: early on, the number one thing I was looking for

593
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: was like what his attachment style was, And I was like, ship,

594
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: I think he actually might be secure, But I also

595
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: think I thought they only like five er some of

596
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: the world had secure attachment. Well, here we are. That's

597
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: actually disorganized organized. Okay, So a dismissive or avoidant attachment

598
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: style develops when as a baby it's you cry and

599
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: nobody notices, so you feel internally rejected or pushed away.

600
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: Kind of what you're being taught is your distress pushes

601
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: people away, and so you learn to stop showing signals

602
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: of distress. Now we've already said this does not mean

603
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: that your parents or the caregivers were straight up ignoring you,

604
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: Like there could be a lot of stuff going on. Yeah,

605
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: like news flash, your parents also have an attachment style.

606
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: Um so also, I mean even a lot of times,

607
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: like the parent who's unable to meet the child's needs,

608
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: like they very well may have an avoidant attachment style.

609
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: That's also like I don't want somebody to need me

610
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: too much or like consume me or get too close,

611
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: and so they're obviously sending the same signal to the

612
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: child of like hey, you know, take care of yourself,

613
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: and like let's put into perspective to like what's going

614
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,040
Speaker 1: on in the world. Maybe there you're going through a

615
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: session and somebody's preoccupied with jobs or work. Maybe a

616
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: parent is going through depression, maybe there's a death in

617
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: the family, maybe there's a disaster, or maybe I mean

618
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: we talked about in one episode, like maybe you're one

619
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: of your parents is in the military, and so there's

620
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: a lot of things that could go on, and I

621
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 1: just so just again, I'm going to kind of dig

622
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 1: that hole for that, um that's a plug. Also, if

623
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: you want to know specifically what was happening in your home,

624
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: maybe go to your own therapy and you can explore

625
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: that with the therapist. So basically, if your needs were

626
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: over and over not responded to, you're gonna learn to

627
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: bypass your distress because you're learning that it doesn't help

628
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: you and you just get let down. So this attachment style,

629
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 1: you basically are taught to not hope, which we talked

630
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: a lot about in the last episode hope because you've

631
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 1: also learned to shut your needs down to stay close

632
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 1: enough to the parents. So if you like this child,

633
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: this baby learns if we're talking about baby or toddler, whatever,

634
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: they learn like, oh, if I'm too needy mom or dad,

635
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 1: they actually go away from me. But if I shut

636
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: down my needs and like I don't cry when I

637
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,720
Speaker 1: get her or I don't cry when I'm in need,

638
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: then mom or dad may not meet my need, but

639
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: they also don't go away from me, so they stay

640
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: closer by. And I'd rather have that closeness than nothing.

641
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 1: And so basically these people are hiding their expression of attachment.

642
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: And when I say expression of attachment, that's like um

643
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: expression of your need. And I guess like crying, looking, wanting, reaching,

644
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: there's no expression of it. So it's like I stay still.

645
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: The reality is you always need it, right, you always

646
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: need it, but you hide it. And I think what

647
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:49,919
Speaker 1: happens It becomes something that you're unaware of at some point, Yeah,

648
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 1: you have to disconnect from the need you have, Like

649
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: the avoidant person disconnects from their needs, They disconnect from

650
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 1: their vulnerability, They disconnect from their desire and their feelings

651
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: because is literally what saved them that's the lifesaver that

652
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: allowed them too and continues to allow them even as

653
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,919
Speaker 1: adults to get close but not too close. And so yeah,

654
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: what ends up happening is that it's not like that

655
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: they just don't have the need for connection or they

656
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 1: don't have the need for expression. They just blunted it

657
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: or numbed it out so far that it really feels

658
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: that way. Yeah, And so typically like at some point,

659
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: and this is when I typically see the person in

660
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: my office or maybe you end up see them in

661
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: their office. It's like they get to a place where

662
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 1: they feel so disconnected in relationship that they can't necessarily

663
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: name what they need or name that they even want it.

664
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: But it's just like most of the time they show

665
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: up and they're just like work is great, but something

666
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: is off, or a lot of times which to talk about,

667
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: like what they look like as clients. Yeah, they're the

668
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: client that comes in and they're like, I don't really

669
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: know why I'm here, and I'm like, okay, cool, and

670
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: we'll think we'll figure it out. But they a lot

671
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: of times will come because a spouse or a partner

672
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,959
Speaker 1: told them to um. And once they get into doing

673
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: the work and they this is the thing. I mean,

674
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: when I might be getting ahead of myself, but it's

675
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: like once they start getting into the work and they

676
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: start like opening up those needs, it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

677
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: whoa what I didn't ask for this, I did not

678
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 1: ask for this. You're no, no, no, And so it

679
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: almost feels like sometimes that's the therapist. It's like I'm

680
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: bothering them, like they're annoyed to be around me. They're

681
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 1: annoyed by the questions I'm asking. They're annoyed by me

682
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: trying to get to know them because they're starting to

683
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:42,399
Speaker 1: get close to me emotionally. Yeah, the resistance is there.

684
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: I mean I remember even and so much of my

685
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: own therapy. Internally, I loved going like somewhere inside of

686
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: me and I couldn't wait for my next appointment, But

687
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: externally I really acted like put off that I had

688
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 1: to be there. And it's like everybody intruding on in

689
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: your life. Yeah, everybody knew. I mean I was a

690
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: will and consenting adult, Like I was dragging myself to

691
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: therapy and never missed an appointment. So it was like

692
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: that was obviously present, but I still like had to

693
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: create the distance to act like I didn't want to

694
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: be there, to act like the other person was like

695
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 1: somehow making me come. Well, it's like, I'm good like

696
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: these If these other people would fix their ship, I

697
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: would be fine. So it's a lot of times it's

698
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: people coming into the therapy office and being saying that

699
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: exact thing, like with all this stuff that would they

700
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: would just take care of their stuff, I'd be okay.

701
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:33,919
Speaker 1: But I don't know how to deal with the fact

702
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 1: that they won't take care of their stuff. And so

703
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: it's it's like this, like I'm fine, I'm independent, I've

704
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: got my stuff together. It's everybody else that has got

705
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: the problem. And I say this, these people aren't unkind,

706
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: and I don't think that they have no awareness that

707
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 1: they're like doing that right. And typically, um, I don't

708
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 1: know the research do you know on like our men

709
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: typically more avoidant or is that just some sort of stereotype.

710
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,479
Speaker 1: I don't even want to say what I think because

711
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: I think that I'm just I know that might just

712
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: be I mean, I'm a woman and I lean avoidant,

713
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:14,919
Speaker 1: so I say that, But it seems that at least

714
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: most of the men I work with in my office

715
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 1: seem more avoidantly leaning um. And then it does typically

716
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: like the avoidant male or female comes in and they're

717
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: talking about how need either partner is or how much

718
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: they neither partner to change, or they're depressed or whatever.

719
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: And so some of the work like that's what that

720
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: client is talking about. If I could just get with

721
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:38,720
Speaker 1: somebody who was more confident, then life would be okay.

722
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 1: And it's like, okay, well, let's look at what draws

723
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 1: you to that person, because that person probably has an

724
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: external expression of your internal neediness. So I think the

725
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: other we didn't touch on this, but the other important

726
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: thing to talk about in terms of like how does

727
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: this develop? Is one of my favorite things. I'll talk

728
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 1: about this forever and ever never is the phrase amashment. Um.

729
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: I think I thought it was another episode how I

730
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: couldn't spell amashment. Yes, I detted to bring that back up.

731
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: That's why, Yes, I can handle being made fun of it.

732
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 1: But anyway, a maasgement is when the parents needs the

733
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: child ends up taking care of the parents needs. Um.

734
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 1: And so this also can really create the avoidant attachment

735
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 1: style because maybe your mom or your dad or your

736
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,879
Speaker 1: attachment figure was always present, like maybe they physically were

737
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: around um and actually, like if you picture like the

738
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: helicopter parent or something like that, or even a lesser degree,

739
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 1: So your parent is around and they are coming to you,

740
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: but what they're doing most of the time is trying

741
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: to meet their own needs through you. And so even

742
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 1: though it was like, oh no, my mom always did

743
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: this or my mom always did that, the question I

744
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: would really ask is like, yeah, but is that what

745
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: you needed or was that like mom trying to soothe

746
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:07,479
Speaker 1: herself by using you? Yes? So which that is such

747
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: you might have to rewind that and listen to it

748
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: again because it's confusing, and I think the thing to

749
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 1: think about. The thing to think about is not if

750
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: they were present, if they were attuned to you, if

751
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 1: you not if they were present, if you were getting

752
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: what you need. I don't know how many clients I

753
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: have sat with and they're like, but they told me

754
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: they loved me, but they gave me hugs, And I'm like,

755
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 1: when did they give you hugs? When did they tell

756
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: you that they loved you? Because anybody can say anything,

757
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: but when you reached out for them and when you

758
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: needed something, were they able to provide you that, and

759
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: did they hear your own boundary back? Because like maybe

760
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 1: mom needed a hug, but you didn't need a hug,

761
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: like the example. Thankfully, I have a friend who's a

762
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 1: behavior analyst and works a lot with kids, and she

763
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: talked about she was teaching me about boundaries with kids, um,

764
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: and so I think about even like my nieces three

765
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 1: three and a half, and um, when I come to

766
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: see her or when I leave, my brother is like, hey,

767
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: give your aunt Meg a hug. And I'm that's fine,

768
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 1: and that's like so culturally like what we do. But

769
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,439
Speaker 1: of course she's three and a half. So sometimes she's

770
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,399
Speaker 1: like no, and instead of being like no, she has

771
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: to give me a hug. I'm like okay, Like do

772
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 1: you want to high five? And she's like no, And

773
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, do you want to fist bump? And

774
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: sometimes she'll be like yeah. But if she's like no,

775
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: I'm like okay, if you want to like zap pinkies

776
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 1: and she's like no, then I'm like okay, cool, Like

777
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 1: let's just wave at each other or whatever. So I'm

778
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 1: really like, even though there's a part of me that's like, oh,

779
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: I kind of want to hug there's another part of me.

780
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: It's like I trust her own ability to know what

781
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: she wants and her own boundary. And so if I

782
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,399
Speaker 1: were to hug her in that moment when she's saying no,

783
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: that's about me, Like that's not for her. And so

784
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: even thinking about that is like our parents again, we're

785
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: doing the best they could. But like just because mom

786
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: or dad gave you a hug, or just because they

787
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: said that they loved you, that doesn't mean that's what

788
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: you needed. Necessarily, you could have needed space. They're they're

789
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: still dismissing you. They're dismissing your boundary. So thank you

790
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 1: for saying that. Um So I want to talk more

791
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 1: about what this looks like in adults. So think about

792
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: somebody kind of almost like zipping up themselves. It's almost

793
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 1: like closed offulness me. Those those people that I just

794
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: kind of want to poke. I'm like, I just want

795
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: to see what it's in there. It's like what's going on?

796
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 1: And these people and people that are basically like I

797
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: don't need you. They're usually pretty. I mean, I mean,

798
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 1: I guess I can't really say that, but they look

799
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: successful and they look okay, they look fine, especially because

800
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:54,720
Speaker 1: our society values that. So these people won't ask for help. Um,

801
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,240
Speaker 1: they don't really rely on a lot of other people. Um.

802
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: They want, they want other people, but they have learned

803
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 1: not to rely on them. So they literally again detached

804
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 1: from the idea that they need other people. You know what,

805
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: This makes me think of an Instagram too, in the

806
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: sense that they they want other people's appreciation of them.

807
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: They appreciate them, but they will go out and meet

808
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: everybody else's needs. But really what they want is to

809
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: feel loved. But I'm going to go meet everybody else's needs.

810
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: I'm fine, I got together. I'm not asking for help.

811
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to do for you, right, even though I

812
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 1: think I don't know if this is your experience, but

813
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: most instagram twos I find to be more anxiously attached. Well, sure,

814
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: but I see what you mean. I mean, I could

815
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: see I can argue that both, but I see what

816
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: you mean in the sense of like, even if regardless

817
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: of their attachment style, it's like, oh, I'm the psychod

818
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: at meeting everybody else's needs, but really, internally, I'm desperately

819
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 1: hoping you'll meet mine. Yeah, And so the avoidance is

820
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: similar in that way, except they're probably not meeting other

821
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 1: people's needs on the outside. No, they're just internally like

822
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: doing this dance with you where it's like I don't

823
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: have needs, but I have so many needs, right. Yeah,

824
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 1: these people will basically they don't rely on anybody. They

825
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: deactivate their distress and needs basically just like a button.

826
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 1: It's like deactivated. The problem is you don't have a

827
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 1: button like that instead of your body, Like you don't

828
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: have a deactivation. I do you thought you did? A

829
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:27,879
Speaker 1: lot of people are thinking like I do, you don't.

830
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 1: These are people that will selp soothe, so autoregulation. They

831
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: will go and take care of themselves in a way

832
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: by themselves. So that is could be think of drinking,

833
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: video games, anything on a screen, work, a lot of

834
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: that kind of exercise because what that But I think

835
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: the important thing to see in that, especially as a

836
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: person who's had many of those things, is actually that

837
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: is the attachment figure. Yeah, the drinking. So like I

838
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: know for me, it's like if I have some sort

839
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: of distress and I'm running to work or a substance

840
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: or food or whatever, I mean, fill in any for anybody,

841
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 1: that thing of choice. The avoidant person is going to

842
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: run to whatever that like object is because that is

843
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 1: how they self soothe, versus when we get into the anxious,

844
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: the anxious person runs towards the person. Um. So even

845
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,280
Speaker 1: I remember doing some of my own work and thinking

846
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: to myself, like I'm better because I'm avoidant, and like,

847
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: why can't essentially why can't Eric be more like me

848
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 1: and have no needs which would be not helpful. But

849
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,359
Speaker 1: my therapist at the time was like, oh no, no, no,

850
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: Like you just run to things outside of the relationship,

851
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: and he's moving towards you. And so for all those

852
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: avoidance out there who think you're better than like the

853
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 1: anxious people of the world, it's like I would really

854
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: look at what are you running to because that's probably

855
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: what you're attached to and how you've learned to self soothe.

856
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 1: And do you want to be attached to that right? Like,

857
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: because that's really safe, Like alcohol is really safe. It

858
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: will always be there for you, It won't judge you,

859
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 1: like it might cause you a lot of harm. You're

860
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: eating disorder. You're eating disorder like your work. Oh my gosh,

861
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: Like so so such a nice high, um, but really

862
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: like it can't meet your legitimate needs. Yeah, this is

863
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 1: the thing, and this is where we can have so

864
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: much empathy for any insecure attachment. It's like, for somebody

865
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 1: who is avoidant, needing is one of the most terrifying

866
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,879
Speaker 1: things you can do, because again, you were taught when

867
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 1: you need something or someone, it goes away. So the

868
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 1: idea of interdependence, which is needing other people, which is

869
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: how we were created to be, is not in your vocabulary.

870
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: So they think to themselves, what happens if I need people,

871
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: I will get hurt. Therefore I do not need anyone else. Right,

872
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: would even goes into like a lot of the healing

873
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 1: for people who do lean more avoidant is like a

874
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 1: more a secure relationship, whether that's therapeutically or somebody outside.

875
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: But it's also really a boundary issue because part of

876
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 1: it is like, oh my gosh, if I allow myself

877
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: to need, like I'm so thirsty, I will never like

878
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: I will be totally consumed by my own need and

879
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 1: like this person like I'll need them so much, and

880
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 1: then what if something happens to them, like, I'll be okay, right,

881
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: and then same is true. The other way is like, oh,

882
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: if I let this person need me, they'll totally consume

883
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: me and take me over. So you're at both ends

884
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 1: of the spectrum of like I'm either going to have

885
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: no boundary for myself and like totally like becomes so

886
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 1: needy I can't function anymore, or I'm going to have

887
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,399
Speaker 1: no boundary and this other person is going to consume me. Right,

888
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: So it's like a lose lose because making sure other

889
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: people's need that making sure other people need them more

890
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 1: than they need others is there to bence mechanism. But

891
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: that will backfire because once you try to engage in

892
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 1: a relationship, those people become the avoidance will then become

893
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 1: eventually overwhelmed by the fact that you set up this

894
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: way for other people to need you, like you set

895
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,720
Speaker 1: it up to fail. And so in relationships, it's like, Okay,

896
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: I want you to be my girlfriend and I want

897
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 1: you to be my boyfriend. I want to be in

898
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: a relationship with you. And then when that person texts

899
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: you and it's like, why haven't he texted me in

900
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 1: two hours, they're like gross, Like you are so clingy

901
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: and annoying. What is wrong with you that you can't

902
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 1: go two hours without talking to me? There's something wrong

903
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: with you. Or like plans for there's I want to

904
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,359
Speaker 1: go somewhere for this in two months, and they're like

905
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 1: I can't even think about Like what do you mean

906
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: you want to make plans with me two months are

907
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 1: you're trying to marry me? And it's like no, Like

908
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: I just want to go somewhere for like New Year's

909
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 1: or like I want to go somewhere for my birthday,

910
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: and like I want to I'm a planner and they're

911
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 1: like you are feels like you're putting chains on my legs,

912
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: which again go back to the boundary thing of like, Okay,

913
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 1: the other person can text you as much as they want,

914
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,280
Speaker 1: and you know what, you if you trust your own boundaries,

915
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: you don't have to even judge them. You don't have

916
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 1: to text them back. You can do this on their

917
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 1: your own schedule, and then they can decide if they're

918
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 1: willing same thing with like a future trip. And this

919
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: is a lot of the work I had to do

920
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: because I like, yes, describing me perfectly, um the same thing.

921
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, you want to plan a trip three

922
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:28,320
Speaker 1: months from now with me? Like I don't even know

923
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,280
Speaker 1: if I'm still gonna be dating you in three months

924
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: and then my work would be like hey Megan, oh

925
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 1: what a scary response. Like you know what, like you

926
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 1: can decide if you want to go on this, and

927
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: also when you get to three months later, like you

928
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: can decide if you want to go then or if

929
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 1: you need to change your mind. So again it comes

930
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:49,959
Speaker 1: back to like trusting that your own ability to set boundaries. Yeah.

931
00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 1: So anyway, these people basically say like, screw vulnerability, I

932
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,399
Speaker 1: don't need that. I don't need to be vulnerable. All

933
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: that is going to do is kind of get me hurt. Um,

934
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 1: so they end up just withdrawing. I feel and you

935
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: can speak to this. My experience is that they don't

936
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 1: perceive themselves holding back. They just perceived themselves not needing

937
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 1: as much as everybody else that's fit for you because

938
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 1: they don't want to be These people also don't want

939
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 1: to be alone, Like like I said, they want to

940
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: be in a relationship with you, and then you get

941
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: in it. Like your experience, you wanted to date, you

942
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:32,919
Speaker 1: were dating, and then once you found somebody that wanted

943
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 1: to date you too, you're like, oh my gosh, she

944
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 1: wants to hang out with me again. I can't. Yeah,

945
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: Like God bless Eric for like hanging in there, because

946
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:42,439
Speaker 1: in the beginning, yeah, he would text me, not even

947
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 1: a lot like Eric is really secure, probably leans a

948
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 1: little anxious. Sorry Eric, if you're listening, um, But it's

949
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: like he would text me and I wouldn't text him

950
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: back for like two days because I and I wasn't

951
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,839
Speaker 1: trying to play some game. Like I really had that

952
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 1: much inner fear and anxiety, which was probably so good

953
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 1: at acting like I didn't have. But it really took

954
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 1: me that long to be like, Okay, I can get

955
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 1: back in this. And then I'd get back in in

956
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:09,800
Speaker 1: and I'd be like, oh my gosh, and then I

957
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 1: get out, and then I get back in and then

958
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: I get out. And that was like what I needed

959
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: to do to learn that I could just stay in it.

960
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: That's so like, God bless you. You had to stay

961
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: in it. And you know what the fear I have

962
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 1: for the people that don't engage in the work and

963
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 1: don't do the work is the fact that you run

964
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: away because that person is too much, and you think

965
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 1: that because you are not connected to your own feelings.

966
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: What's really happening is you're terrified. You are terrified, and

967
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,320
Speaker 1: you are yeah, and It's like, if you could connect

968
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: with being scared, you then could connect with why you're scared.

969
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: You're not scared because this person is annoying you and

970
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: they're going to overtake your life. You're scared because there's

971
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 1: a part of you that thinks if you start to

972
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 1: engage with this person, attached to this person, they're going

973
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 1: to leave you. Yeah. I literally remember, Um, I remember

974
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,280
Speaker 1: what it was like to attach to my own therapist,

975
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 1: and then I remember what it was like to attach

976
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,399
Speaker 1: to begin to attach to Eric, And it was a

977
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:19,800
Speaker 1: moment of probably the most panic I felt in my life,

978
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 1: because it wasn't I had no fear that the person

979
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 1: themselves would leave me. I actually had more of a

980
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,919
Speaker 1: fear of like they would die and so it would

981
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: be something like outside of their control because I knew, like,

982
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:34,399
Speaker 1: they're not going to leave me. Um, Like I knew

983
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,360
Speaker 1: that that they we were connected and attached enough that

984
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 1: something wasn't going to like rupture that necessarily. But I

985
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: literally remember driving and remember where I was, and it

986
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: was like the most pain I've ever felt in my

987
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: body thinking about like, holy sh it, I have finally

988
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 1: allowed myself to care about this person, to have needs

989
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 1: with this person and what would I do if something

990
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 1: happened to them? Like I was like, I will not

991
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 1: be okay. And I remember thinking to myself like the

992
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 1: pain of being a therapist. I'm like, this is why,

993
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: like this is why I don't want to attach, because

994
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: like this is what it's like to actually allow myself

995
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 1: to care about someone and I feel like I'm gonna die. Yeah, yeah,

996
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 1: And thank god you have you have the awareness to

997
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: identify that and put those pieces together. And the interesting

998
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:23,760
Speaker 1: thing is I want to come back to that idea

999
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,879
Speaker 1: that the underlying that fear of like somebody's gonna leave.

1000
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 1: It's the same for both insecure attachments. And you know

1001
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:32,720
Speaker 1: how a client who is avoidant will be more about

1002
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: like I'm annoying them, and they'll be more about like

1003
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 1: pushing me away, while somebody who's anxious is going to

1004
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: say more and they're not going to say that I'm

1005
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 1: annoying or make kind of passive aggressive comments or just

1006
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: like kind of act like things like stupid and whatever

1007
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:51,400
Speaker 1: they're going to they're going to over and over and

1008
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 1: over ask me like are you mad at me? Like

1009
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 1: if I didn't do homework, like can I still have

1010
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 1: my session, like or they're always gonna They're the kind

1011
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: of client that's always what do I do? What do

1012
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 1: you think? Like all that stuff and that there. But

1013
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 1: they are definitely the person who says, are you going

1014
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 1: to leave me? To me as the therapist, and it's

1015
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: not the feeling there is no different than the the

1016
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: client that acts like I'm the most on the scum

1017
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 1: of the earth and I'm ruining their life. They're pushing

1018
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 1: me away. Both of the also, both of those strategies

1019
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: are active strategies to push to create space. Like the

1020
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 1: avoidant person, you can obviously look at them and say like, oh,

1021
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 1: they're literally running away like they're creating space. But the

1022
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 1: anxious person is so wrapped up in the anxious likeness

1023
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:42,479
Speaker 1: of it and asking are we okay? Are we okay?

1024
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: Are you mad at me? That that actually also is

1025
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 1: creating space because they're not connected to their fear of

1026
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,879
Speaker 1: really doing intimacy either, because that's the thing, like both

1027
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,919
Speaker 1: of them have the both attachment styles have the fear

1028
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 1: of being abandoned, but the like surface one from the

1029
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 1: anxious person on the surface looks more afraid of being abandoned,

1030
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 1: but underneath that also lays like a huge fear of

1031
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 1: actually doing intimacy, whereas the avoidant person on the surface

1032
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: looks a lot more afraid of doing intimacy, but underneath

1033
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:15,720
Speaker 1: is the abandonment. So like these things like are different

1034
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 1: sides of the same coin. And coming back to your

1035
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 1: thing about the avoidant person, like thinking they have less needs,

1036
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 1: the anxious or the avoidant person doesn't have less needs.

1037
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 1: They meet their needs in different ways. Um. And so similarly,

1038
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 1: it's like most avoidant people I know, or like when

1039
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 1: I really am looking at them, they really may still

1040
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 1: continue even when they're secure, to go outside of the

1041
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 1: relationship to self soothe. Um. And then yeah, it comes

1042
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: into like what if you are a person who goes

1043
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:48,880
Speaker 1: outside of the relationship to self soothe, but you're with

1044
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,839
Speaker 1: somebody who wants to self soothe in the relationship, and

1045
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 1: that's where you just have to navigate that. And it

1046
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 1: doesn't mean either person is like good or bad. It's like, wow,

1047
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 1: we have competing needs and we have to work on this. Yeah. Yeah.

1048
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 1: The funny thing is what I noticed with when I

1049
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 1: work with people who lean more on the avoidance side,

1050
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 1: it's they think they know what they want, but they

1051
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:15,799
Speaker 1: don't know. I know what they want. They want a relationship,

1052
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 1: they want connection, they want all that stuff. But once

1053
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 1: their attachment gets activated, they are like I don't want this,

1054
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 1: and I'm like, yes you do. You're just really scared.

1055
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: And so yeah, that's when the self soothing and that's

1056
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 1: when when avoidance this might be too heavy. But when

1057
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 1: avoidance attachment system gets activated, their autonomic nervous system gets activated.

1058
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 1: And so what that is is your fight, fight or freeze.

1059
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: So what do you think these people do? Oh? Hell yeah,

1060
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 1: we fully at here, Like I really, I will tell you,

1061
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 1: Like there was a point where I was like, I

1062
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 1: feel like I need a gold medal first staying in

1063
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: this ship because it is so scary, it is so hard,

1064
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 1: and especially early on, Eric would be the type that like,

1065
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 1: in three months, do want to do this? And I

1066
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 1: would be like, well, I have a big trip to

1067
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 1: Colorado on Southwest planning a trip to Colorado. Sorry you

1068
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 1: can't go, because I would just like flee, and I

1069
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 1: really did. Even early on, I like went on so

1070
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 1: many trips because I was like I just have to

1071
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 1: get away from here and prove that like I am

1072
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 1: my own person and you can't take me over and

1073
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 1: you can't control me. And then I'd have to step

1074
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 1: back and be like, I don't think Eric's trying to

1075
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: do any of that stuff, Like I'm pretty sure all

1076
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 1: of that lies within me. And what would it be

1077
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 1: like to trust my own boundaries? And I had a

1078
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 1: great therapist saying like, hey, do you need a boundary?

1079
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 1: Do you need a boundary? What do you need? Like

1080
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 1: you don't have to go to Colorado to tell Eric

1081
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:41,000
Speaker 1: that you don't want to hang out tonight? Yeah, yeah,

1082
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 1: oh my god, because but in my mind I did. Yeah.

1083
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 1: But the thing is, it's not like you don't you

1084
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 1: didn't like him, And that's why I think a lot

1085
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 1: of relationships get so lost. And it's like, it's not

1086
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 1: that you don't like this person, it's that this person

1087
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 1: is getting close to you, and you like this person

1088
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 1: almost almost two months because you're afraid that if you

1089
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 1: get close to this person, they're going to see your

1090
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 1: stuff and then you're going to be really let down

1091
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 1: when they leave. So you just do it for us both. Yes,

1092
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 1: that is so spot on, man, oh it's and it's

1093
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 1: so confusing. It's just confusing, like we're talking in circles,

1094
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 1: but I'm like because it's like we have to drive

1095
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: home this right because you desperately want the person and

1096
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 1: you desperately want to be close to them, but you're

1097
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 1: so afraid that you continue to do things to keep

1098
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: them far away, which is sort of the human condition.

1099
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 1: Like we all work incredibly hard to keep ourselves from

1100
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:37,920
Speaker 1: getting what we most desperately want, which is love and

1101
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 1: belonging most of the time. And the trouble. The trouble

1102
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 1: is I find this, I see this more, and we're

1103
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 1: gonna we're about to kind of move into anxious, but

1104
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 1: you'll see more of I see more. If somebody who's anxious,

1105
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 1: it's like, yep, that's me. Somebody who's avoidant is like

1106
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:57,240
Speaker 1: I'm not avoidant, Like no, they're just everybody else is

1107
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: just so annoying. And I'm like, okay, sure we'll go

1108
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 1: with that for now. But like that's like the attachment

1109
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 1: suns are just funny because like anxious will will co

1110
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 1: sign that appoidance are like, no, we're secure, yeah, And

1111
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 1: it is like I mean, cat, you may agree with me,

1112
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 1: but it is true. Like if you live your if

1113
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 1: you live your life detached from people, and you never

1114
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 1: ever need anybody or get close to anybody or depend

1115
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 1: on anybody, like, you will probably have an easier life. Um,

1116
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 1: like you will not have as much pain. Yeah. Easy,

1117
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 1: I'm really clear about. Like, your life will probably be

1118
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 1: have less like pain in it maybe, um you know,

1119
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 1: because you're not going to be as attached. You don't

1120
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 1: ever have to suffer a loss. But I think the

1121
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 1: question really ask yourself is are you looking for an

1122
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 1: easy life or like more of a meaningful life? Yeah,

1123
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 1: because if you live your life detached from everybody and

1124
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 1: never needing anyone and never really caring about anybody and

1125
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 1: never allowing yourself to go there, like, you might have

1126
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 1: an easier life with less pain, but you won't have

1127
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 1: a meaningful, like deeply connected intimate life. And here's the

1128
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 1: thing I normally would say, this is what I would

1129
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 1: normally say to that. It's not that they have less pain,

1130
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 1: it's what kind of pain do you want to have?

1131
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 1: Do you want to have the pain of not getting

1132
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 1: hurt or do you want to have the pain of

1133
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 1: not actually fulfilling your longings? I would normally say that,

1134
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 1: but with an avoidant, A true avoidance is not aware

1135
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 1: that they are not fulfilling their loggings because they're fine.

1136
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 1: They will say I don't need relationship, or this is

1137
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:38,200
Speaker 1: the kind of I want a relationship that is that

1138
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:41,960
Speaker 1: does look like this, But it's not true. It is

1139
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 1: truly not true. You are not wired that way. You

1140
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 1: have rewired yourself to think that way. Yeah, and it's hard.

1141
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 1: I mean I remember even I got to a place

1142
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 1: in my life where my therapist, my sponsor, my friends

1143
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 1: were all like, are you gonna date? Are you gonna

1144
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 1: start dating? And I was like, no, I honestly don't

1145
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:00,160
Speaker 1: even know if I want to ever get me are

1146
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,760
Speaker 1: like I'm really happy. I have this awesome life, Like

1147
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 1: why would I want to add that to it? And

1148
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 1: I remember my therapist continuously saying like, because you're wired

1149
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 1: for relationship, like we are human beings, we are wired relationship,

1150
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 1: And I'd be like, uh, but somewhere deep down inside

1151
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:20,120
Speaker 1: of me, I believe that now. I never gave any

1152
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:22,560
Speaker 1: hint of that on the outside. And so even now

1153
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 1: when I work with avoidant people, I'm like, you do

1154
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:27,840
Speaker 1: want this? I know that you might not like know that,

1155
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 1: and I am so FLEXI on like what people's definition

1156
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 1: of health is and like, let's get you to where

1157
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 1: you want to be and like that gets to look

1158
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:38,000
Speaker 1: like whatever you want it to be and so open.

1159
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:40,360
Speaker 1: But the part where I won't budge on is like

1160
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 1: we are all made for relationship and connection and like

1161
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 1: that is like a fundamental human part of us. Yeah,

1162
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:55,120
Speaker 1: you know. Another like measuring measure of avoidance is if

1163
01:02:55,160 --> 01:03:00,280
Speaker 1: you've ever said not ever because you know it. Like

1164
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:03,120
Speaker 1: if you find yourself saying that you don't feel certain

1165
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 1: emotions like I don't feel hurt or I don't ever

1166
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 1: get angry or I don't ever get sad. Yeah you do.

1167
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 1: You just are not attached to feelings anymore. And so

1168
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: again you self soothe those things and you numb those

1169
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:20,920
Speaker 1: and or you're saying I don't want to be controlled,

1170
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 1: I don't want to be consumed. I don't like needy people.

1171
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 1: Like if we could just give these like quotes and

1172
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 1: it is all like classic quotes like I can't be

1173
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:34,480
Speaker 1: myself because of this person doing X y Z. So

1174
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 1: here's kind of where we'll land this plane kind of

1175
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 1: like talking about and we'll actually megan, I kind of

1176
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 1: want to talk about moving towards secure at the end.

1177
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:47,000
Speaker 1: For both of them, they look a little bit different,

1178
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 1: but also the same. So that's kind of we'll kind

1179
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:53,200
Speaker 1: of stop there with avoidance and move into the anxiousness,

1180
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 1: even though we've kind of talked about both, but we're

1181
01:03:55,720 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 1: going to go into the dune undone anxious preoccupied side.

1182
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:04,440
Speaker 1: You know, Katherine will be the expert in the room

1183
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 1: on this one. I lean over there every now and then,

1184
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 1: just a couple of times I've leaned over there in

1185
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 1: my life. A couple of days she's been over there. Um.

1186
01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 1: So instead of avoidance, this person is more about kind

1187
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 1: of like preoccupation. So these people have been exposed to

1188
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 1: inconsistent attunement of their needs. So where somebody who's avoidant,

1189
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:34,400
Speaker 1: they lost hope because the parents just like kind of

1190
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:38,440
Speaker 1: ignored or we're not present for those needs. This is

1191
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 1: a little bit more tricky because sometimes their needs get

1192
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:44,480
Speaker 1: met and sometimes their needs aren't met, and sometimes they

1193
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 1: get met, and sometimes their needs aren't met. So they

1194
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:51,800
Speaker 1: battle through this like hoping in disappointment and hoping in disappointment,

1195
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 1: while the avoidance just doesn't hope. And the example that

1196
01:04:56,440 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 1: I usually give to clients is this is the kid

1197
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 1: who like has all youth soccer. This is this is

1198
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:04,920
Speaker 1: not happened in my life. So Mom and Dad, I'm

1199
01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 1: not talking about you, but I played soccer. Somebody used this,

1200
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 1: So imagine I had a soccer game at like six

1201
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:12,880
Speaker 1: pm on Wednesday, and I'm like walking out the door

1202
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 1: going to school, and my dad's like, hey, like, i'll

1203
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:18,400
Speaker 1: see you at your game tonight. And in my head,

1204
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, Dad's gonna come to my game. And

1205
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:23,760
Speaker 1: then I go to my game. I'm so excited and

1206
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 1: like Dad's coming blah blah blah. And I'm playing and

1207
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 1: I score goal and I look out at the crowd

1208
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:31,320
Speaker 1: and I can't find my dad and I'm like, oh,

1209
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 1: maybe he's, you know, in the corner or whatever, blah blah.

1210
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 1: He's there. He said he was gonna be there. And

1211
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 1: then the game's over and I walk over to where

1212
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 1: all the parents are and like my mom is like sorry,

1213
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 1: like dad got caught up in work again. And it's like, oh,

1214
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:46,200
Speaker 1: my hope is that my hope is And I held

1215
01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 1: on to it so much and like I made all

1216
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 1: these excuses and then the reality is Dad didn't show up.

1217
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:55,439
Speaker 1: Whereas an avoidant dad didn't even know you had to game.

1218
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 1: You know, it's tough because like you don't want to

1219
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 1: lose hope because you get these little nuggets, but then

1220
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 1: you get kind of the nugget taken away from you.

1221
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 1: So or like mom or dad comes through the door

1222
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 1: home from work or whatever, and one day they're super

1223
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:15,680
Speaker 1: excited to see you and super conconnect with you, and

1224
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:17,960
Speaker 1: then the next day, like they're on the phone and

1225
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:22,320
Speaker 1: completely ignore you. So it's like hard for that. It's

1226
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:25,560
Speaker 1: hard for somebody on the anxious side to settle, and

1227
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:28,080
Speaker 1: it's really really, really really hard for them to trust.

1228
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:31,040
Speaker 1: And I want to kind of drive that home because

1229
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:35,080
Speaker 1: I think they get we get a bad rap of

1230
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:37,880
Speaker 1: like what's wrong with you? You must have like no

1231
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 1: confidence or no self esteem, And it's really not about that.

1232
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 1: It's about the fact that we have been taught that

1233
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:48,400
Speaker 1: people don't there, people don't keep their word, or people

1234
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:53,960
Speaker 1: are inconsistent. People just can't be trusted, really, and we

1235
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:57,480
Speaker 1: want so badly to trust them. And obviously when we

1236
01:06:57,560 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 1: look at where it comes from, it's for good reason,

1237
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 1: Like any of us, the most the worst kind of

1238
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 1: reinforcement that any person can get is inconsistent reinforcement. It

1239
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:09,600
Speaker 1: makes us crazy because it's like, I mean, the whole

1240
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 1: basis of the lottery or slot machine is based on

1241
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:15,680
Speaker 1: that premise, is like, well sometime that you're gonna win,

1242
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:18,440
Speaker 1: but who knows how long. And so I have a

1243
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:21,920
Speaker 1: lot of room for compassion upon people who lean on

1244
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:24,360
Speaker 1: the anxious side, because it's like, yes, sometimes your knees

1245
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 1: got met in like a really wonderful way, and then

1246
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 1: other times you got completely ignored, and like any of

1247
01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 1: us would keep fighting for that wonderful time again. Yeah,

1248
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 1: And so I will use this example for myself is

1249
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:46,480
Speaker 1: that because again I don't think this comes from insecurity.

1250
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 1: If there's something really I don't really think we think

1251
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:52,600
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with us all the time. However, if

1252
01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 1: we go back to what we talked about in the beginning,

1253
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:58,080
Speaker 1: you were gonna make meaning out of our experiences. And

1254
01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 1: so for me, I have had a series of things

1255
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:06,800
Speaker 1: where the story that I made up because people would

1256
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:09,360
Speaker 1: be there and be really really excited about being there,

1257
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:11,480
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden they're gone and they're

1258
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 1: out and we have to make a meaning up about that.

1259
01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:18,240
Speaker 1: And the meaning that I made for a period of

1260
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:22,479
Speaker 1: my life was oh, they don't think I'm worth the work.

1261
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:26,719
Speaker 1: It was not I don't think I'm worth the work.

1262
01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 1: It was they don't think that, And that was a

1263
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:32,840
Speaker 1: hard thing for me to hold. It was a lot

1264
01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:35,640
Speaker 1: of anger for me because it was like, how do

1265
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:39,040
Speaker 1: they not see? How do they? Why don't they Why

1266
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 1: don't they see how special I am? Why don't they

1267
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:44,760
Speaker 1: see how valuable I am? I see it? Why are

1268
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:46,639
Speaker 1: these people who have not seen it? And that's where

1269
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 1: like the crazy making comes in. And if we go

1270
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:51,400
Speaker 1: back to the example of like the kid and the

1271
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:54,120
Speaker 1: dad not showing it's it's like, I what if I

1272
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:56,680
Speaker 1: scored a hat trick? How does that dad not see that?

1273
01:08:56,760 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 1: Like he wants to be in the crowd because I'm

1274
01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:03,000
Speaker 1: star And it's it makes no sense and we have

1275
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:05,000
Speaker 1: to make sense out of it at the same time.

1276
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:10,480
Speaker 1: And so so in kids, basically that looks like oh

1277
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:14,320
Speaker 1: mom or caregivers here, Oh they're not. This is really interesting.

1278
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:18,360
Speaker 1: So there's an experiment called the Strange Situation, which we

1279
01:09:18,360 --> 01:09:22,080
Speaker 1: haven't talked about yet, where Mary Ainsworth did this and

1280
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 1: basically she studied like what happens when UM, a caregiver

1281
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:29,640
Speaker 1: will leave her child and then come back and to

1282
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:34,240
Speaker 1: um kind of differentiate the attachment styles and with the

1283
01:09:34,320 --> 01:09:37,439
Speaker 1: anxious and secure anxious. What would happen is the kid

1284
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:40,960
Speaker 1: would be sad when the mom left, definitely sad when

1285
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:46,320
Speaker 1: the mom leaves, where like the avoidant isn't even looks

1286
01:09:46,320 --> 01:09:51,439
Speaker 1: at the mom cool, but the anxious is sad and

1287
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 1: that's an appropriate response. The issue is when they come back,

1288
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:57,680
Speaker 1: they'll go to the caregiver, but then they can't be

1289
01:09:57,760 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 1: soothed because in their mind, thank god mom is here,

1290
01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:02,400
Speaker 1: but Mom's going to leave again, and so I have

1291
01:10:02,479 --> 01:10:04,280
Speaker 1: to cling to mom because she's going to leave again,

1292
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:05,720
Speaker 1: and what if she leaves again and I don't want

1293
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 1: her to leave again? Right, Like, the anxious and the

1294
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:10,080
Speaker 1: secure baby when the mom walks out of the room

1295
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:13,439
Speaker 1: looks sort of similar. Um, the difference is the secure

1296
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:16,559
Speaker 1: baby like can can self soothe and calm down when

1297
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:19,960
Speaker 1: mom comes back, they interact with mom and like they're

1298
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 1: happy to see mom, and then they can also sort

1299
01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:25,200
Speaker 1: of play with mom and independently when mom comes back.

1300
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:27,960
Speaker 1: To the anxious baby, that baby is like clinging for

1301
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:31,200
Speaker 1: dear life, where really it's a one year old like that,

1302
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:36,439
Speaker 1: that toddler is like can't stop crying, can't stop clinging,

1303
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:39,439
Speaker 1: like mom doesn't know what to do, and so like yeah.

1304
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:43,840
Speaker 1: Later in relationships, that's why there's this like constant need

1305
01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:46,720
Speaker 1: for affirmation, and when you're with that person, even when

1306
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:49,599
Speaker 1: it feels good, you are waiting for them to leave

1307
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:54,320
Speaker 1: because historically this is not you being again, it's not

1308
01:10:54,439 --> 01:10:59,719
Speaker 1: low self worth. Historically people leave again, and so you

1309
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 1: are attached to that story. Um, and so that would

1310
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:08,080
Speaker 1: definitely come out in every relationship. These are the people

1311
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:12,040
Speaker 1: that they just can't relax. These are your stage five clangers. Yeah,

1312
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:15,519
Speaker 1: and like in some ways, yeah, the anxious person isn't

1313
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:17,960
Speaker 1: making up there's something wrong with them. It's more of

1314
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:21,000
Speaker 1: like they think they can do something to keep person there. Yeah,

1315
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:22,479
Speaker 1: like what can I do to keep people? You can

1316
01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:24,640
Speaker 1: see where like in some ways those look similar, but

1317
01:11:24,680 --> 01:11:27,640
Speaker 1: they're actually very different because it does it isn't like

1318
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:30,439
Speaker 1: an inflated sense of power of like I can be better,

1319
01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:32,120
Speaker 1: I can do more. I need to check in with

1320
01:11:32,160 --> 01:11:35,559
Speaker 1: this person to make sure everything's okay so that they'll stay. Yeah,

1321
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:38,559
Speaker 1: And it ends up being problematic because there's nothing that

1322
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:41,760
Speaker 1: the partner can do at that point, And that's why

1323
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:44,400
Speaker 1: avoidance will end up getting really frustrated because it's like

1324
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:47,000
Speaker 1: I texted you when I said I was and text

1325
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:48,479
Speaker 1: you I called you when I said I was going

1326
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:51,559
Speaker 1: to call you, like I like you, I love you,

1327
01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:54,120
Speaker 1: I think you're beautiful. What the hell more do you

1328
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:57,960
Speaker 1: want from me? You crazy person? Well yeah, and essentially

1329
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:00,879
Speaker 1: again it comes back to an inability to self soothe,

1330
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:04,240
Speaker 1: and then instead of being like the avoidant going away

1331
01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:07,519
Speaker 1: to some sort of whatever to self soothe, like the

1332
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:10,080
Speaker 1: anxious person is trying to get use the person to

1333
01:12:10,120 --> 01:12:12,599
Speaker 1: self to do it. So even like I mean, we'll

1334
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:14,679
Speaker 1: get here in terms of like how do you repair

1335
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:17,880
Speaker 1: this attachment style or whatever you wanna call it, You

1336
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:21,320
Speaker 1: have to learn how to self soothe and self regulate. Yeah,

1337
01:12:21,439 --> 01:12:23,320
Speaker 1: I think more of like you just have to learn

1338
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:26,640
Speaker 1: to soothe in general, because I do think in relationship

1339
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:29,560
Speaker 1: you should be able to soothe with somebody, not soothed

1340
01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:32,680
Speaker 1: by somebody. Right, that's the biggest distinction. Like we are

1341
01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:36,040
Speaker 1: humans and creative a relationships, so we do soothe with

1342
01:12:36,080 --> 01:12:39,920
Speaker 1: other humans. You just don't want to be using the humans, right, right,

1343
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:43,200
Speaker 1: there's a different team being connected and using them. Yeah.

1344
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 1: So these parents also, I know we talked about your

1345
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:48,760
Speaker 1: parents have attachment to these parents are a lot of

1346
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:52,880
Speaker 1: times like fearful in their parenting, so like they doubt themselves,

1347
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:55,160
Speaker 1: and then the child can sense that and then they

1348
01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:58,479
Speaker 1: get preoccupied with the fact that their parents are unsure,

1349
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:01,639
Speaker 1: and so they take on the instability of their parents.

1350
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:04,439
Speaker 1: So in adults were kind of already been telling others,

1351
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:06,760
Speaker 1: but it looks like, why aren't you texting me a

1352
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:10,120
Speaker 1: lot of like information seeking and wanting to know, wanting

1353
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:13,200
Speaker 1: you to say a lot of words of affirmation, um,

1354
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:16,880
Speaker 1: And they like, what we don't realize is like, because

1355
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:19,320
Speaker 1: we're doing that to find connection, we don't realize that

1356
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:22,400
Speaker 1: we're pushing those people away, which is kind of what

1357
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:25,600
Speaker 1: you're talking. Yeah, it's too much, yeah, or like the

1358
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:28,360
Speaker 1: anxious person, Like they text and then they're like, why

1359
01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:30,519
Speaker 1: isn't this person texting me back? It's been an hour,

1360
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:32,240
Speaker 1: And it's like, I don't know, maybe that person is

1361
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:35,400
Speaker 1: at work or asleep or whatever. So then they text again,

1362
01:13:35,439 --> 01:13:37,640
Speaker 1: and they text again, and they text again, and the

1363
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:41,200
Speaker 1: texting isn't wrong that the issue is it's an exaggeration

1364
01:13:41,360 --> 01:13:45,479
Speaker 1: of a normal need. One text is great, it's great,

1365
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 1: but like, yeah, even the amount of texting, like it's

1366
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:52,559
Speaker 1: not that, it's the anxiety behind the texting. And then

1367
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:54,519
Speaker 1: I wonder for you too, you can speak on this.

1368
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:57,960
Speaker 1: It becomes blame me too, because then I'm like, why

1369
01:13:57,960 --> 01:14:00,759
Speaker 1: did you text me back? And they're like I fell asleep?

1370
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:04,400
Speaker 1: I like what I fell asleep? Like why don't you

1371
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:08,640
Speaker 1: trust me? Um? And it's like because I was taught not.

1372
01:14:08,800 --> 01:14:11,559
Speaker 1: I was taught not to write reality. When we're sending

1373
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:14,160
Speaker 1: those texts, what we're actually feeling is I feel abandoned

1374
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:18,640
Speaker 1: and rejected, and um, yeah, nobody wants to feel that,

1375
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:26,439
Speaker 1: So we want to kind of take that away. And

1376
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:29,200
Speaker 1: I don't know that we necessarily plan on getting into this,

1377
01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:32,559
Speaker 1: but going back to even like how we're talking about

1378
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:35,840
Speaker 1: the two on the on the instagram on the inngiogram

1379
01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:38,519
Speaker 1: um and how they're so willing to help help, help,

1380
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:41,719
Speaker 1: but internally like desperate for help. A lot of times

1381
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:44,640
Speaker 1: I see with clients a similar pattern showing up, like

1382
01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:48,439
Speaker 1: they're anxiously attached and so they found like your classic

1383
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:54,120
Speaker 1: addict avoidant who really like has a lot going on

1384
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:56,320
Speaker 1: in their life and really needs a lot of help.

1385
01:14:56,800 --> 01:15:00,200
Speaker 1: And so here we've got anxious person coming and to

1386
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:03,160
Speaker 1: take care of this person who really needs them. And

1387
01:15:03,160 --> 01:15:06,840
Speaker 1: it's just really nice toxic dance that they have going on.

1388
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:10,920
Speaker 1: Are you saying that the addict is avoidant. Yes, the

1389
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 1: addict is avoidant because they're going to go to their

1390
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:18,519
Speaker 1: substance to get like se healing and the yeah, they

1391
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:20,800
Speaker 1: don't want they don't want you to fix them. But

1392
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:23,519
Speaker 1: now this whole thing break blows up. And I'm sure

1393
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:26,000
Speaker 1: you've seen this. I see this a lot too. It

1394
01:15:26,040 --> 01:15:30,120
Speaker 1: blows up when the avoidant addict decides like, oh, I'm

1395
01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:32,400
Speaker 1: actually going to go get help and like I don't

1396
01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:36,599
Speaker 1: want you anymore. And then the anxious person is like

1397
01:15:37,240 --> 01:15:41,720
Speaker 1: I've done everything, like oh my gosh, whatever um, And

1398
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:44,599
Speaker 1: it really like I just see that as a as

1399
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:47,360
Speaker 1: a cycle that's not always there, Like please hear me.

1400
01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:50,400
Speaker 1: Every anxious person is not dating an addict. It's just

1401
01:15:50,479 --> 01:15:53,600
Speaker 1: a very common cycle that somebody can find themselves in

1402
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:57,000
Speaker 1: because you have found someone who really needs you and

1403
01:15:57,040 --> 01:16:01,240
Speaker 1: that feels really good. Well, at the same time, here's

1404
01:16:01,280 --> 01:16:03,800
Speaker 1: the thing, I don't think that I'm like on the

1405
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:06,439
Speaker 1: top of the scale with anxiousness. Again, we lean, but

1406
01:16:07,439 --> 01:16:10,080
Speaker 1: I also have paid enough money but also secured to

1407
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:14,280
Speaker 1: want you to know that I'm also healthy. But yeah, again,

1408
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:18,840
Speaker 1: I how do I say this if we're dating. If

1409
01:16:18,880 --> 01:16:21,240
Speaker 1: we find ourselves in that avoid an anxious dance, which

1410
01:16:21,280 --> 01:16:24,759
Speaker 1: works for a period of time, the avoidance doesn't always

1411
01:16:24,800 --> 01:16:29,280
Speaker 1: leave to go get help, right belong eventually the problem

1412
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:30,680
Speaker 1: well it you might go on forever and it could

1413
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:33,599
Speaker 1: be a little bit, it could be wild. They also

1414
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:38,320
Speaker 1: could just leave because they start to get attached to you.

1415
01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:42,800
Speaker 1: That is going to happen when you have more somebody

1416
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:45,680
Speaker 1: who has an anxious tendency but isn't fully anxious. Does

1417
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:49,920
Speaker 1: that make sense? If you have security, when you have yeah,

1418
01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:52,120
Speaker 1: when you have both, it's like that avoidant will end

1419
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:57,000
Speaker 1: up leaving because you start to lean into their stuff

1420
01:16:57,000 --> 01:16:59,160
Speaker 1: and they lean and they give self sooth they might

1421
01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:01,320
Speaker 1: not lean and leaving go the health Now, I guess

1422
01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:04,479
Speaker 1: that's my ideals ideal. So if you have like black

1423
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:08,280
Speaker 1: and white textbook anxious, black and white textbook avoidant addict

1424
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:13,040
Speaker 1: that that might happen, or that will never happen and

1425
01:17:13,040 --> 01:17:17,479
Speaker 1: they'll forever be in this unhealthy wild ride, or if

1426
01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:20,360
Speaker 1: you have either, I think either stage. If you have

1427
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:23,800
Speaker 1: one anxious, this is probably getting too deep, so I

1428
01:17:23,840 --> 01:17:25,040
Speaker 1: probably won't put this in there. But if you have

1429
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:28,479
Speaker 1: somebody who leans anxious, but it's mostly secure with a

1430
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:32,000
Speaker 1: very avoidant, the avoidance will end up leaving because the

1431
01:17:32,400 --> 01:17:35,120
Speaker 1: secure person is trying to get in there. If you

1432
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:40,320
Speaker 1: have somebody who is mostly secure but a little avoidant

1433
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:44,720
Speaker 1: and somebody who's mostly anxious, does that make sense the

1434
01:17:45,400 --> 01:17:48,200
Speaker 1: avoidance will still end up leaving. That makes sense to

1435
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:52,240
Speaker 1: avoidance going to leave either way, because they either have

1436
01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:54,719
Speaker 1: health and they're going to go. You know, I can't

1437
01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:57,320
Speaker 1: do this is too much like you're actually unhealthy or

1438
01:17:57,320 --> 01:18:00,400
Speaker 1: they're gonna leave because you're trying to attach match to

1439
01:18:00,439 --> 01:18:02,479
Speaker 1: me and I don't want to do that if they're unhealthy.

1440
01:18:02,600 --> 01:18:05,759
Speaker 1: And also what you're talking about is like mismatch levels

1441
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:08,479
Speaker 1: of health and so kind of what you're saying is

1442
01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:11,080
Speaker 1: like it's inevitable if one person, I don't care what

1443
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:13,439
Speaker 1: kind of attachment style you have, if one person is

1444
01:18:13,680 --> 01:18:16,680
Speaker 1: mostly secure with somebody who's not, it's not going to

1445
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:20,679
Speaker 1: work out. Um. But I think coming back to even

1446
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:23,200
Speaker 1: the thing I was really trying to highlight about, the

1447
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:27,360
Speaker 1: anxious attachment style is one way like one key to

1448
01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:29,600
Speaker 1: seeing like when you're trying to figure out your attachment

1449
01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:33,120
Speaker 1: is like, yeah, have you attracted? Like are you in

1450
01:18:33,160 --> 01:18:35,720
Speaker 1: a relationship where you're someone who's really meeting a lot

1451
01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:38,160
Speaker 1: of the needs, because the anxious person is going to

1452
01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:41,960
Speaker 1: be probably far better at meeting needs and like being

1453
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:44,960
Speaker 1: even ahead of knowing what the need is like anticipating

1454
01:18:45,000 --> 01:18:48,479
Speaker 1: the need before the other person would leave them, And

1455
01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:52,000
Speaker 1: is also a way to like keep from doing intimacy

1456
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:54,880
Speaker 1: because if I'm always meeting your needs, then I never

1457
01:18:55,000 --> 01:18:56,920
Speaker 1: have to talk about what my needs are or to

1458
01:18:57,040 --> 01:18:59,960
Speaker 1: be needing myself. And the secure person is going to say,

1459
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:02,920
Speaker 1: you take care of your needs, I'll take your my needs.

1460
01:19:03,120 --> 01:19:06,439
Speaker 1: Let's meet somewhere and hang out in the middle. So

1461
01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:10,360
Speaker 1: these people have a fear of being alone, is what

1462
01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:12,799
Speaker 1: it looks like. That's what their fear on the outside

1463
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:15,760
Speaker 1: looks like, whereas avoidant, their fear on the outside looks

1464
01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:19,479
Speaker 1: like a fear of intimacy. But really the anxious person

1465
01:19:19,600 --> 01:19:23,040
Speaker 1: does have a fear of intimacy, and they to me,

1466
01:19:23,200 --> 01:19:26,200
Speaker 1: you see, like you would really see that I have needs,

1467
01:19:26,240 --> 01:19:28,960
Speaker 1: I have feelings, and I would actually have to share them,

1468
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:31,519
Speaker 1: even though the most deceptive part is that on the

1469
01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:34,439
Speaker 1: outside it looks like the anxious person is very connected

1470
01:19:34,479 --> 01:19:37,800
Speaker 1: to their needs. Yeah, yeah, and so yeah, so the

1471
01:19:37,880 --> 01:19:42,960
Speaker 1: anxious person is like Basically, they're over doing it when

1472
01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:47,200
Speaker 1: it comes to attachment. The avoidant person is under doing it.

1473
01:19:47,240 --> 01:19:51,400
Speaker 1: When it comes to attachment. The anxious person assumes you're

1474
01:19:51,439 --> 01:19:54,960
Speaker 1: not going to come back, and the avoidant person assumes

1475
01:19:54,960 --> 01:19:57,479
Speaker 1: that I don't hold this together, it's going to fall apart.

1476
01:19:57,960 --> 01:20:02,240
Speaker 1: I gotta go. I don't want this responsibilit So I

1477
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:07,519
Speaker 1: think neither of which are doing interdependence. Interdependence is like

1478
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:12,720
Speaker 1: doing relationship together. Like you're not overly dependent, but you're

1479
01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:15,479
Speaker 1: not so independent that you're not even in the in

1480
01:20:15,520 --> 01:20:19,840
Speaker 1: the game. Um, you're able. Like interdependence looks like I

1481
01:20:19,960 --> 01:20:22,840
Speaker 1: have needs. I'm able to express my needs, my feelings,

1482
01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:26,320
Speaker 1: my wants, my desires without like totally expecting you to

1483
01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:29,160
Speaker 1: fix them. And then the other person can also kind

1484
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 1: of stay in their lane and here here that you

1485
01:20:32,200 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 1: have these needs, have these feelings, ask for what, ask

1486
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:38,559
Speaker 1: what you need. Also have boundaries, Like, both people are

1487
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:41,519
Speaker 1: having needs, both people are having boundaries. Both people are

1488
01:20:41,520 --> 01:20:43,720
Speaker 1: allowing the other person to feel their feelings and not

1489
01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:48,639
Speaker 1: having to fix them. Like that's what interdependence looks like. Yeah,

1490
01:20:48,760 --> 01:20:52,080
Speaker 1: and so I think that, um, we've kind of like

1491
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:53,960
Speaker 1: part of me is like we should have done this

1492
01:20:54,000 --> 01:20:56,200
Speaker 1: in multiple episodes, but we've kind of given you a

1493
01:20:56,240 --> 01:20:59,680
Speaker 1: lot of information to digest about kind of discertaining that

1494
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:03,080
Speaker 1: did types of insecure attachment. Now I want to start

1495
01:21:03,120 --> 01:21:05,760
Speaker 1: to talk about the hope that there is for this

1496
01:21:06,320 --> 01:21:09,559
Speaker 1: steady hope that there is for both of these types

1497
01:21:09,640 --> 01:21:13,200
Speaker 1: because you have the ability to have secure attachment. With

1498
01:21:13,360 --> 01:21:20,800
Speaker 1: that being said, it is a painful, scary, twist attorney

1499
01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:23,760
Speaker 1: road to get there because your old metal deserves. You

1500
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:27,680
Speaker 1: have to face your biggest fear on either side, and

1501
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:30,280
Speaker 1: you have to be willing to do that and with

1502
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:32,800
Speaker 1: an avoidance and you can speak to this Megan, like

1503
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:36,679
Speaker 1: going and doing the work. You have to actually become

1504
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:40,080
Speaker 1: aware to the fact that you have needs, which is

1505
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:43,479
Speaker 1: terrifying because then you're vulnerable and oh my god, then

1506
01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:47,320
Speaker 1: you're going to get abandoned. And even like further to

1507
01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:51,200
Speaker 1: like all that is true, but also leaning avoidant I

1508
01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:53,800
Speaker 1: experiences personally and I see it with clients. You also

1509
01:21:53,880 --> 01:21:56,479
Speaker 1: have to battle the need every week or the thought

1510
01:21:56,520 --> 01:21:58,240
Speaker 1: every week that you don't really need to do this

1511
01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:02,000
Speaker 1: because everything's fine. Yeah, because everything's fine, And so I

1512
01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:04,240
Speaker 1: know a lot of my journey was like, well, I'm

1513
01:22:04,280 --> 01:22:06,400
Speaker 1: just gonna keep putting one ft in front of the other,

1514
01:22:06,479 --> 01:22:08,880
Speaker 1: Like I've committed to doing this whole therapy thing. I'm

1515
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:11,439
Speaker 1: just gonna keep doing it and keep doing it and

1516
01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:14,439
Speaker 1: keep doing it. Even though so much in the journey

1517
01:22:14,439 --> 01:22:17,840
Speaker 1: I was like I'm fine, I'm fine. Um So, I

1518
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:20,320
Speaker 1: think there's an extra element of like the whole time,

1519
01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:23,200
Speaker 1: you're actually sort of talking yourself into it. Yeah, and

1520
01:22:23,200 --> 01:22:25,759
Speaker 1: you know that the lie that you might be saying

1521
01:22:25,840 --> 01:22:29,400
Speaker 1: is that like, I'm fine, Like there's no chaos, chaos

1522
01:22:29,479 --> 01:22:31,960
Speaker 1: in my life. My life is so steady, whereas an

1523
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:35,040
Speaker 1: anxious person is like there's chaos everywhere, but there's still

1524
01:22:35,120 --> 01:22:38,240
Speaker 1: chaos in your life. Sleep to it, yes, and then

1525
01:22:39,080 --> 01:22:41,960
Speaker 1: um so, and you're working so hard to not get

1526
01:22:42,040 --> 01:22:44,400
Speaker 1: attached to the therapist, Like there's there's a lot of

1527
01:22:44,439 --> 01:22:46,559
Speaker 1: games to you. I mean there is two if you're anxious.

1528
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:49,800
Speaker 1: But like even I know I've had a lot of

1529
01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:53,720
Speaker 1: clients that are mean avoidance say to me like, yeah,

1530
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:56,240
Speaker 1: I forgot how much I liked meeting with you, like

1531
01:22:56,360 --> 01:22:58,280
Speaker 1: from one week to the next. And I'm like yeah,

1532
01:22:58,360 --> 01:23:01,040
Speaker 1: because you're telling yourself all we like, you don't need me,

1533
01:23:01,120 --> 01:23:03,040
Speaker 1: you don't care about me, you don't even like me

1534
01:23:03,680 --> 01:23:06,560
Speaker 1: to in order to continue to create distance, and you

1535
01:23:06,960 --> 01:23:10,960
Speaker 1: gotta allow yourself to attune to other people and you

1536
01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:15,559
Speaker 1: have to allow yourself to care about other people. And yeah,

1537
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:19,920
Speaker 1: that is very scary. And in a podcast that I was,

1538
01:23:20,400 --> 01:23:22,400
Speaker 1: did I say podcast weird? No, I don't know. I

1539
01:23:22,439 --> 01:23:25,479
Speaker 1: feel like I was listening to you. In the podcast

1540
01:23:25,560 --> 01:23:28,920
Speaker 1: I was listening to um they described They said that

1541
01:23:29,360 --> 01:23:31,360
Speaker 1: the avoidance is like the tin man and they need

1542
01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:34,599
Speaker 1: to maybe to go find their heart. That's probably true.

1543
01:23:34,680 --> 01:23:36,439
Speaker 1: I'm as sad as it is. It is probably true.

1544
01:23:36,840 --> 01:23:38,960
Speaker 1: And if you do lane avoidance, you have to be

1545
01:23:39,120 --> 01:23:42,360
Speaker 1: one hell of a freaking translator, because I know, like

1546
01:23:42,400 --> 01:23:45,320
Speaker 1: what that looks like for me is constantly like in

1547
01:23:45,360 --> 01:23:47,759
Speaker 1: my head, I'm like, oh, I don't care about this person,

1548
01:23:47,840 --> 01:23:49,519
Speaker 1: and then I have to be like, oh, that actually

1549
01:23:49,600 --> 01:23:52,120
Speaker 1: means I care about them a lot. Or I'm like, oh,

1550
01:23:52,120 --> 01:23:55,520
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go on this three week vacation without anybody

1551
01:23:55,520 --> 01:23:57,439
Speaker 1: and I'm finally going to get the peace and quiet

1552
01:23:57,439 --> 01:23:59,920
Speaker 1: that I want. And then I'm like, Okay, that's an alert,

1553
01:24:00,240 --> 01:24:02,599
Speaker 1: like translate that that means that I need more boundaries

1554
01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:05,639
Speaker 1: in my life right now. Um, And so I really

1555
01:24:05,680 --> 01:24:09,040
Speaker 1: have learned to pick up on these traditionally like avoidant

1556
01:24:09,040 --> 01:24:12,719
Speaker 1: phrases that I carry and translate them into like what's

1557
01:24:12,760 --> 01:24:16,920
Speaker 1: actually true and then learn what I need within that. Yeah,

1558
01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:21,240
Speaker 1: Whereas like the anxious person, they're there a lot of

1559
01:24:21,280 --> 01:24:23,360
Speaker 1: their work is learning to be less aware of the

1560
01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:25,479
Speaker 1: outside and more aware of the inside as well. And

1561
01:24:25,760 --> 01:24:28,320
Speaker 1: it's just a different way that the avoidance is not

1562
01:24:28,360 --> 01:24:31,559
Speaker 1: aware of the outside or the inside. The agonist person

1563
01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:34,519
Speaker 1: just needs to go inside um and they have got

1564
01:24:34,520 --> 01:24:38,559
Speaker 1: to do the work around, like identifying their own opinion

1565
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:43,920
Speaker 1: and learning how to be more selfish about their needs

1566
01:24:43,960 --> 01:24:47,479
Speaker 1: and their desires and their lungs rather than the kind

1567
01:24:47,479 --> 01:24:50,240
Speaker 1: of like role we play as the self selfless kind

1568
01:24:50,280 --> 01:24:53,160
Speaker 1: of like how you're talking about the two iniogram, So

1569
01:24:54,080 --> 01:24:56,000
Speaker 1: it's like you have to go inside and start reading

1570
01:24:56,040 --> 01:24:58,360
Speaker 1: your own cues rather than trying to read and take

1571
01:24:58,400 --> 01:25:02,639
Speaker 1: care of everybody else's because we've created safety by making

1572
01:25:02,680 --> 01:25:05,599
Speaker 1: sure we don't cause a stir, and we're helping others

1573
01:25:06,320 --> 01:25:10,880
Speaker 1: because if they are happy, then we're okay. Just like

1574
01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:13,400
Speaker 1: the avoidance says in the therapy session, if they would

1575
01:25:13,439 --> 01:25:16,320
Speaker 1: be if they would fix their ship, I would be okay.

1576
01:25:16,439 --> 01:25:19,040
Speaker 1: So if I fix my stuff, I'll be okay for

1577
01:25:19,080 --> 01:25:22,479
Speaker 1: that person. Does that make sense? Yeah? And conversely, like

1578
01:25:22,640 --> 01:25:26,120
Speaker 1: the avoidant person who's in recovery and working on security

1579
01:25:26,200 --> 01:25:29,120
Speaker 1: has to like in the same way work on being

1580
01:25:29,200 --> 01:25:32,400
Speaker 1: less selfish. So I know, like even in my own relationship,

1581
01:25:32,479 --> 01:25:34,719
Speaker 1: sometimes I'll have to be like, okay, hold on a second,

1582
01:25:34,760 --> 01:25:37,280
Speaker 1: like what do you need? Like this is a lot

1583
01:25:37,320 --> 01:25:40,240
Speaker 1: of focus on me. I'm really good at focusing on me,

1584
01:25:41,240 --> 01:25:44,240
Speaker 1: and like I deeply care about my partner, and so

1585
01:25:45,080 --> 01:25:47,800
Speaker 1: like our dance that we do together is also there

1586
01:25:47,840 --> 01:25:50,800
Speaker 1: are times that I'm like, Okay, I have received enough

1587
01:25:50,880 --> 01:25:53,800
Speaker 1: care um, and I will continue to do that if

1588
01:25:53,840 --> 01:25:56,080
Speaker 1: I'm not careful, and then I have to like push

1589
01:25:56,120 --> 01:25:58,439
Speaker 1: it back for Eric, I'm like, what do you need?

1590
01:25:58,479 --> 01:26:01,240
Speaker 1: What do you want? What's going on? So, just like

1591
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:04,800
Speaker 1: the person who leans anxious is like working on identifying

1592
01:26:04,800 --> 01:26:08,920
Speaker 1: their needs and becoming less selfless. Hey, avoidant people of

1593
01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:12,160
Speaker 1: the world, you also need to work on being less selfish. Yeah.

1594
01:26:12,400 --> 01:26:14,400
Speaker 1: And you know what, like in your story to the

1595
01:26:14,800 --> 01:26:17,400
Speaker 1: somebody moving towards you, it's like this person wanting to

1596
01:26:17,479 --> 01:26:21,280
Speaker 1: love and care for you so badly, and you you

1597
01:26:21,320 --> 01:26:24,360
Speaker 1: interpret that as like a threat of like this person

1598
01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:26,320
Speaker 1: is going to end up hurting me, and it's like no, like,

1599
01:26:26,920 --> 01:26:31,160
Speaker 1: just let somebody love you, let somebody see you like um.

1600
01:26:31,160 --> 01:26:33,880
Speaker 1: But it is a threat because the avoidant person has

1601
01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:36,559
Speaker 1: needed a hundred percent of their energy to meet their

1602
01:26:36,560 --> 01:26:39,840
Speaker 1: own needs. They never got their needs met and so

1603
01:26:40,000 --> 01:26:42,000
Speaker 1: are not you know never but most of the time

1604
01:26:42,040 --> 01:26:44,719
Speaker 1: didn't and so they're used to like trying to survive

1605
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:47,559
Speaker 1: on a private island. Like if you leave avoidance, so

1606
01:26:47,680 --> 01:26:50,240
Speaker 1: you need a hundred percent of your own energy to

1607
01:26:50,240 --> 01:26:52,760
Speaker 1: take care of yourself. But as you step more into

1608
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:54,920
Speaker 1: your adult self, you'll start to see, oh, this other

1609
01:26:54,960 --> 01:26:57,559
Speaker 1: person is safe and they're not actually going to take

1610
01:26:57,640 --> 01:26:59,880
Speaker 1: from me. Yeah, Because the truth of all this is,

1611
01:27:00,240 --> 01:27:03,120
Speaker 1: if this is something that was developed in fully in

1612
01:27:03,240 --> 01:27:07,120
Speaker 1: your childhood, those things, those traits how you were able

1613
01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:10,200
Speaker 1: to survive, your attachment style kept you safe on your

1614
01:27:10,200 --> 01:27:14,320
Speaker 1: island either way anxious or avoidant. And the truth is

1615
01:27:14,520 --> 01:27:21,559
Speaker 1: in adult life, you don't need those survival mechanisms any longer.

1616
01:27:21,600 --> 01:27:25,439
Speaker 1: They are now hurting you, and so the anxious person

1617
01:27:25,520 --> 01:27:27,759
Speaker 1: one of our jobs is to realize that we're having

1618
01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:33,280
Speaker 1: an exaggerated expression or feeling. This is not one percent

1619
01:27:33,400 --> 01:27:35,760
Speaker 1: the truth of what's going on, and we have to

1620
01:27:36,160 --> 01:27:39,519
Speaker 1: realize that just because we're feeling something doesn't mean that

1621
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:42,800
Speaker 1: somebody has done something. And the world is probably a

1622
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:45,759
Speaker 1: lot safer than we think it is. People are probably

1623
01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:49,240
Speaker 1: a lot safer than we think they are. So kind

1624
01:27:49,240 --> 01:27:52,600
Speaker 1: of wrapping this all up, how how basically do we

1625
01:27:52,600 --> 01:27:55,519
Speaker 1: move towards secure? You guys are gonna love this simple

1626
01:27:55,520 --> 01:27:59,479
Speaker 1: answer to to get this what we call earn security.

1627
01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:02,639
Speaker 1: It's like moving from an insecurity to security. Um, it's

1628
01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:04,360
Speaker 1: going back to the idea of like, it doesn't matter

1629
01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:06,519
Speaker 1: what happened to you, it matters what you do with it.

1630
01:28:06,680 --> 01:28:10,439
Speaker 1: So it's not whether or not like you have. The

1631
01:28:10,439 --> 01:28:14,679
Speaker 1: thing is, it doesn't matter if you've experienced trauma because

1632
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:18,760
Speaker 1: you have flash you. It's not whether or not you

1633
01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:21,680
Speaker 1: experienced it. And it's like, oh, you're shut shut out

1634
01:28:21,680 --> 01:28:23,840
Speaker 1: of luck if you experienced trauma, but if you didn't,

1635
01:28:23,840 --> 01:28:26,640
Speaker 1: you'll be secure. It's not about that, it's what do

1636
01:28:26,720 --> 01:28:30,320
Speaker 1: you do with the trauma? Has the trauma been processed?

1637
01:28:30,560 --> 01:28:35,599
Speaker 1: Because through trauma we create stories, and through these stories

1638
01:28:35,960 --> 01:28:38,960
Speaker 1: we create ways to interact in the world and do relationship.

1639
01:28:39,520 --> 01:28:42,760
Speaker 1: And so now the issue is these people who have

1640
01:28:42,800 --> 01:28:47,640
Speaker 1: insecure attachments did not have people to help support them

1641
01:28:47,760 --> 01:28:54,840
Speaker 1: in their trauma, and right, the accurate story. Now, if

1642
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:58,479
Speaker 1: we want to grow and heal our attachment wounds, we

1643
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:02,480
Speaker 1: got to go find somebody and heal in a relationship

1644
01:29:02,560 --> 01:29:05,280
Speaker 1: with somebody that does not have to be a romantic partner.

1645
01:29:05,640 --> 01:29:08,559
Speaker 1: That is the only way. Like you can not heal

1646
01:29:08,640 --> 01:29:13,560
Speaker 1: attachment through a podcast, through a book, through journaling, through meditation.

1647
01:29:13,680 --> 01:29:17,120
Speaker 1: I mean all of those things will help you. And

1648
01:29:17,280 --> 01:29:20,240
Speaker 1: like that's the first step, that's the awareness. Yeah, I

1649
01:29:20,320 --> 01:29:25,200
Speaker 1: love my some of my avoided clients. I'm just constantly like, okay,

1650
01:29:25,200 --> 01:29:27,240
Speaker 1: when you like, you got to do this with somebody,

1651
01:29:27,280 --> 01:29:29,040
Speaker 1: you gotta do this with somebody. You gotta do this

1652
01:29:29,040 --> 01:29:30,720
Speaker 1: with somebody. I'm like, how many Like I'll just keep

1653
01:29:30,760 --> 01:29:34,160
Speaker 1: saying it forever, Like you cannot heal in a vacuum.

1654
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:37,639
Speaker 1: I said that this week. Yeah, and so yeah, earned

1655
01:29:37,640 --> 01:29:41,880
Speaker 1: security has literally learned through meaningful, strong, healthy And when

1656
01:29:41,880 --> 01:29:44,920
Speaker 1: I say healthy, I don't mean perfect. A healthy relationship

1657
01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:47,040
Speaker 1: where like you can show up with your stuff, they

1658
01:29:47,040 --> 01:29:49,280
Speaker 1: can show up with their stuff. You can argue, you

1659
01:29:49,280 --> 01:29:51,120
Speaker 1: can have a fight, you can disagree, and you can

1660
01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:54,479
Speaker 1: still stay attached. This is a lot of times what

1661
01:29:54,600 --> 01:29:59,160
Speaker 1: a therapeutic relationship models, and a lot of times the

1662
01:29:59,160 --> 01:30:01,360
Speaker 1: clients don't know where doing that, But what we're saying

1663
01:30:01,479 --> 01:30:05,200
Speaker 1: is like come back, i'llso be here, yeah, the whole premise.

1664
01:30:05,280 --> 01:30:07,120
Speaker 1: I had somebody asking me like, okay, so when are

1665
01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:09,360
Speaker 1: we going to work on our attached my attachment? And

1666
01:30:09,400 --> 01:30:11,880
Speaker 1: I was like, we're working on it, you know, like

1667
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:13,519
Speaker 1: this is it And they're like, okay, well, what do

1668
01:30:13,520 --> 01:30:15,559
Speaker 1: you think I should talk about to like work on it.

1669
01:30:15,600 --> 01:30:17,519
Speaker 1: I'm like, in a lot of ways, we can talk

1670
01:30:17,560 --> 01:30:20,400
Speaker 1: about whateverything. We could talk about anything that has some

1671
01:30:20,439 --> 01:30:24,120
Speaker 1: sort of meaning, Like I really appreciated. I appreciate when

1672
01:30:24,120 --> 01:30:26,800
Speaker 1: people are ready to like head on do the work.

1673
01:30:27,120 --> 01:30:29,240
Speaker 1: But I'm like the work that we're doing in therapy,

1674
01:30:29,240 --> 01:30:31,000
Speaker 1: at least from the lens that I think we both

1675
01:30:31,080 --> 01:30:34,759
Speaker 1: operate out of, is like the attachment between the client

1676
01:30:34,800 --> 01:30:38,880
Speaker 1: and the therapist is healing the attachment wound. I had

1677
01:30:38,920 --> 01:30:41,920
Speaker 1: somebody recently say to me like, um, I was like, hey,

1678
01:30:41,960 --> 01:30:44,000
Speaker 1: how's this session going. Are you getting what you need?

1679
01:30:44,400 --> 01:30:48,000
Speaker 1: And they were like yeah, Because for me, just simply

1680
01:30:48,439 --> 01:30:51,120
Speaker 1: coming to this session is me telling myself that, like

1681
01:30:51,240 --> 01:30:54,400
Speaker 1: I'm worth it. I love that, and I'm like, wow,

1682
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:57,840
Speaker 1: we could literally talk about anything because that's the work.

1683
01:30:57,960 --> 01:31:01,559
Speaker 1: It's like them valuing themselves me saying like, yeah, you're

1684
01:31:01,560 --> 01:31:05,000
Speaker 1: worth this time too. You know, UM, you probably have

1685
01:31:05,080 --> 01:31:08,679
Speaker 1: had experiences like this, but I've had a couple of these,

1686
01:31:08,920 --> 01:31:13,800
Speaker 1: and UM, I will ask people pretty often like what

1687
01:31:13,920 --> 01:31:17,120
Speaker 1: allows you to sit in this room with me and

1688
01:31:17,760 --> 01:31:20,600
Speaker 1: tell me your stuff that you like? What is it

1689
01:31:20,640 --> 01:31:23,599
Speaker 1: about this space that you don't have somewhere else where

1690
01:31:23,720 --> 01:31:27,840
Speaker 1: you can't go somewhere else and express yourself and whatever

1691
01:31:27,880 --> 01:31:30,519
Speaker 1: and do whatever? What is it about the space that

1692
01:31:30,560 --> 01:31:33,760
Speaker 1: allows you talk to me? Basically? And a couple of

1693
01:31:33,760 --> 01:31:36,840
Speaker 1: weeks ago, somebody said will you And I was like,

1694
01:31:37,600 --> 01:31:40,360
Speaker 1: I was like, it is not totally me, it could

1695
01:31:40,360 --> 01:31:43,760
Speaker 1: be partly, but like what about me? And she was

1696
01:31:43,800 --> 01:31:45,920
Speaker 1: like she was like the first session I walked in

1697
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:49,000
Speaker 1: the office, I sat down, and you were doing something

1698
01:31:49,040 --> 01:31:51,799
Speaker 1: at your desk and you made a comment about something

1699
01:31:52,040 --> 01:31:54,559
Speaker 1: not regarding therapy, was like about the day or about

1700
01:31:54,640 --> 01:31:57,960
Speaker 1: your day. And I just sat here and thought to myself,

1701
01:31:58,720 --> 01:32:03,519
Speaker 1: I think that I can trust this person. And I

1702
01:32:03,560 --> 01:32:07,559
Speaker 1: was like, okay, And that really wasn't about me. That

1703
01:32:07,600 --> 01:32:09,080
Speaker 1: wasn't about me. Because you don't know what I don't

1704
01:32:09,120 --> 01:32:11,679
Speaker 1: remember what I said, you know how you felt, that's

1705
01:32:11,720 --> 01:32:15,280
Speaker 1: what it is. And I was like, but that was

1706
01:32:15,320 --> 01:32:18,320
Speaker 1: not about me, because I didn't force you to say

1707
01:32:18,360 --> 01:32:21,639
Speaker 1: anything in here. And she said, this is the first

1708
01:32:21,720 --> 01:32:25,640
Speaker 1: time that I have ever told my story, told my

1709
01:32:25,680 --> 01:32:29,040
Speaker 1: whole story, and this is through like beautiful tears, and

1710
01:32:29,520 --> 01:32:34,120
Speaker 1: you haven't, like the person hasn't left. And I was like, yeah,

1711
01:32:34,240 --> 01:32:36,960
Speaker 1: and I didn't force you to do that. You came

1712
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:40,160
Speaker 1: in here and you decided I'm this person, like I'm

1713
01:32:40,160 --> 01:32:43,280
Speaker 1: going to trust this person. You didn't know anything about me.

1714
01:32:43,640 --> 01:32:47,240
Speaker 1: I could get up and moved to Ohio tomorrow. Right,

1715
01:32:47,280 --> 01:32:50,400
Speaker 1: it's like you, but you decided in that I'm willing

1716
01:32:50,479 --> 01:32:52,799
Speaker 1: to do the scary work and I'm willing to trust

1717
01:32:53,040 --> 01:32:55,800
Speaker 1: somebody for the first time. And what you learned is

1718
01:32:55,840 --> 01:32:59,320
Speaker 1: that not everybody will leave. And that is the hard

1719
01:32:59,360 --> 01:33:01,880
Speaker 1: to scary work. It's not about me making you feel

1720
01:33:02,000 --> 01:33:05,320
Speaker 1: what a certain way. It's you learning to trust, yeah,

1721
01:33:05,360 --> 01:33:08,080
Speaker 1: and learning how to like do something differently and get

1722
01:33:08,120 --> 01:33:11,519
Speaker 1: a different result and step into new territory. And like

1723
01:33:11,600 --> 01:33:14,439
Speaker 1: the best things that clients can do is like talk

1724
01:33:14,479 --> 01:33:17,240
Speaker 1: about what it's like to be with your therapists, like

1725
01:33:17,320 --> 01:33:20,000
Speaker 1: talk about your perceptions of the therapist, talk about how

1726
01:33:20,080 --> 01:33:23,280
Speaker 1: you feel with them, talk about all that stuff. But yeah,

1727
01:33:23,320 --> 01:33:26,400
Speaker 1: I mean, really the attachment relationship between the client and

1728
01:33:26,400 --> 01:33:29,519
Speaker 1: the therapist the client is that like you are the

1729
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:32,120
Speaker 1: hero of your own story. Like your therapist is not

1730
01:33:32,200 --> 01:33:36,040
Speaker 1: your hero. Um, however, they might be really meaningful to

1731
01:33:36,080 --> 01:33:38,439
Speaker 1: your life, but you are your own hero. And as

1732
01:33:38,479 --> 01:33:41,360
Speaker 1: you learn to do attachment in a new way in

1733
01:33:41,479 --> 01:33:44,120
Speaker 1: the office, then you can take that out into the

1734
01:33:44,120 --> 01:33:46,639
Speaker 1: world and do that with other people around you. Yeah,

1735
01:33:46,680 --> 01:33:49,080
Speaker 1: and it is an experiment because we get to be

1736
01:33:49,240 --> 01:33:52,160
Speaker 1: somebody who kind of like it's less it's less risky.

1737
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:53,760
Speaker 1: It is because you can say that I'm paying you

1738
01:33:53,760 --> 01:33:57,160
Speaker 1: this person or this is this person's job, and we're people,

1739
01:33:57,720 --> 01:33:59,680
Speaker 1: so it still counts. But it's like this is the

1740
01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:02,120
Speaker 1: speriment where you go and you see what it's like.

1741
01:34:02,320 --> 01:34:06,840
Speaker 1: Because my hope is the client. My clients have the

1742
01:34:06,880 --> 01:34:11,920
Speaker 1: ability at some point, it's not always the first session

1743
01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:13,840
Speaker 1: or even the first couple of months. At some point

1744
01:34:14,520 --> 01:34:18,000
Speaker 1: they feel the safeness to just be a freaking hot

1745
01:34:18,040 --> 01:34:22,320
Speaker 1: mess and they don't have to buckle up or zip up,

1746
01:34:22,560 --> 01:34:26,000
Speaker 1: and they don't have to text me every day to

1747
01:34:26,040 --> 01:34:29,960
Speaker 1: make sure that I'm not going to fire them, that

1748
01:34:30,080 --> 01:34:32,840
Speaker 1: they just trust that they were messy and I still

1749
01:34:32,880 --> 01:34:35,400
Speaker 1: will care for them. So there you have it, guys.

1750
01:34:35,439 --> 01:34:40,000
Speaker 1: The ways to heal your your attachment. Number one, go

1751
01:34:40,120 --> 01:34:44,800
Speaker 1: to therapy. Number two create new, strong, meaningful relationships, and

1752
01:34:44,920 --> 01:34:48,240
Speaker 1: number three you develop new meaning for the old story.

1753
01:34:49,439 --> 01:34:54,800
Speaker 1: And I think that wraps it up. Yeah. Another resource

1754
01:34:54,840 --> 01:34:57,840
Speaker 1: I was just going to share two is um I've

1755
01:34:58,160 --> 01:35:01,320
Speaker 1: found this app, the Gottman Card Ducks. Have you seen

1756
01:35:01,360 --> 01:35:04,240
Speaker 1: that guy? So Gottman g O T T M A N,

1757
01:35:04,360 --> 01:35:06,840
Speaker 1: which is after John Gottman. He does a lot of

1758
01:35:06,920 --> 01:35:10,240
Speaker 1: work with relationships. But it is a free app that

1759
01:35:10,640 --> 01:35:13,439
Speaker 1: helps you connect with people in your life. And so

1760
01:35:14,080 --> 01:35:16,800
Speaker 1: check that out if you're also wondering for like a

1761
01:35:16,840 --> 01:35:22,439
Speaker 1: resource on how to practice secure attachment and intimacy. Yeah. So, yeah,

1762
01:35:22,479 --> 01:35:26,040
Speaker 1: this has been a quite a long episode. But maybe

1763
01:35:26,040 --> 01:35:27,800
Speaker 1: you might have to listen to it again, or maybe

1764
01:35:28,000 --> 01:35:30,519
Speaker 1: have to listen to it in pieces. But this is

1765
01:35:30,840 --> 01:35:35,000
Speaker 1: important stuff, This is necessary stuff. This is scary, challenging stuff.

1766
01:35:35,280 --> 01:35:38,720
Speaker 1: And if you are connecting to this episode really more

1767
01:35:38,760 --> 01:35:41,559
Speaker 1: than I guess every episode, but really this one. If

1768
01:35:41,600 --> 01:35:44,599
Speaker 1: you are connecting to it. I want to again offer

1769
01:35:44,680 --> 01:35:47,759
Speaker 1: yourself some grace because nobody is a d percent secure

1770
01:35:48,840 --> 01:35:51,400
Speaker 1: and if you want to do some work and look

1771
01:35:51,439 --> 01:35:53,840
Speaker 1: at this stuff, I really want to encourage you to

1772
01:35:53,920 --> 01:35:56,880
Speaker 1: reach out to a therapist. It doesn't have to be us,

1773
01:35:57,000 --> 01:36:00,479
Speaker 1: but you can't heal this alone, so so reach out

1774
01:36:00,520 --> 01:36:04,840
Speaker 1: and take the step. Um and thanks for listening. Pizza Out,

1775
01:36:04,920 --> 01:36:21,880
Speaker 1: Rainbow Trout, see yuh