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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and a federal judge has ruled Tennessee's

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Speaker 1: drag ban as unconstitutional. We have such a fabulous show

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Speaker 1: for you today. Former Republican Congresswoman Barbara Comstock talks to

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Speaker 1: us about the GOP field and the differences she sees

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Speaker 1: in the candidates. Then we'll talk to Evil Geniuses author

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Speaker 1: Kurt Anderson about the GOP's departure from reality. But first

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Speaker 1: we have the Lincoln Projects read Galen. Welcome to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 1: Read Galen, Thanks for having me today. We must congratulate

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Speaker 1: ourselves for avoiding financial catastrophe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, it's no small thing, right. We

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Speaker 2: do this every well, I should say this, Republicans in

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Speaker 2: Congress do this every ten years or so, just to

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Speaker 2: remind us how insane they were.

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Speaker 1: Right. It was just it's only happened once before. I mean,

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Speaker 1: though it seems likely it will happen again.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean I think that in you know,

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Speaker 2: the good news is is that the deal that President

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Speaker 2: Biden cutt buys us another two years.

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Speaker 3: And well, that seems like a long time. It's not.

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Speaker 2: But I will say this is that if we do

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Speaker 2: what we need to do November of twenty four, you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe it's a narrow, narrow house, narrow Senate, we could

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Speaker 2: probably do some work. Look, Molly, there is work that

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Speaker 2: needs to be done, right, I think we should note that.

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Speaker 2: But it's not going to be done, you know, with

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Speaker 2: a gun to the head or the sort of damicles

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Speaker 2: hanging over you.

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Speaker 1: Right. No, I mean, I think one of the comments

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Speaker 1: that I heard a lot writing about this and talking

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Speaker 1: to people was that this ended up being a normal

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Speaker 1: budget negotiation, but done in a completely insane way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I mean the idea, well, remember that we

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Speaker 2: haven't had quote unquote regular order in Congress in years, right,

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Speaker 2: maybe couple of decades at this point, and so now

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Speaker 2: this is how things get done in the context of yeah,

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Speaker 2: a budget, a debt ceiling, you know, whatever else. And

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Speaker 2: let's be clear, there's a very good chance that nothing

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Speaker 2: else of real note comes out of this Congress before

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Speaker 2: the next election, right right right, the Republican House, they

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Speaker 2: passed a whole bunch of bs stuff that is obviously

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Speaker 2: going to die on the vine. But they're all performative anyway,

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Speaker 2: you could make an argument that there's really not going

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Speaker 2: to be anything else that comes up between you know, now,

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Speaker 2: in the next eighteen months.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, true, But also like why the fuck are we

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Speaker 1: paying them? Then? Well, I mean no, I mean I

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Speaker 1: think that's right, and that's what most people are saying.

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Speaker 1: But it is just still an incredible fact, right, Like

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Speaker 1: imagine that you said, now we're done till twenty four.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that it's really in the

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Speaker 2: context of where we are nowadays, which is, you know,

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Speaker 2: if these are the idiots in charge, you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: sort of happy to have them do nothing for eighteen months.

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Speaker 2: That is a good point, But your broader point is right,

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Speaker 2: which is there are things that you know, we need

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Speaker 2: to do, whether or not it's on social media, AI,

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Speaker 2: the environment, Like, there are things that need to happen

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Speaker 2: in this country from a broad based policy perspective, on

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Speaker 2: behalf of individual Americans. Republicans, especially the one you know,

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Speaker 2: the MAGA, the Taliban twenty the Magas, aren't you know,

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Speaker 2: they don't care about any of that stuff. I would

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Speaker 2: also say that in the context of what is already

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Speaker 2: an election year, right, because look, we're already we have

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Speaker 2: a Republican primary. If whether or not it means anything

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Speaker 2: remains to be seen. But the truth is we're already

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Speaker 2: back into another election cycle, and you know Trump will

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Speaker 2: put enormous pressure on McCarthy and the rest of those

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Speaker 2: people to make sure that they don't get anything done

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Speaker 2: that he doesn't like. And you know the President will

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Speaker 2: do what he can to look normal, which compared to

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Speaker 2: them won't be hard, right.

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Speaker 1: And that's what I want to get back to this

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Speaker 1: Taliban twenty because this is a new phrase I've heard.

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Speaker 1: I always cringe at the idea of comparing the American

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Speaker 1: extism to extremism in Islam, because we are a country

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Speaker 1: that has had a lot of dysfunction that it doesn't need.

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Speaker 1: We don't need to bring other countries into it. But

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Speaker 1: I'm curious to know who are these twenty.

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Speaker 2: Well it look, I mean, it's you know, the top

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Speaker 2: of the list is Marjorie Taylor Green right from Georgia,

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Speaker 2: Matt Gates from Florida, Paul Gosar from Arizona. Even well,

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Speaker 2: I would say normally Thomas Massey from Kentucky's on the list,

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Speaker 2: but he actually voted for the debt ceiling bill.

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Speaker 1: So Massi's on the rules committee. He is really I

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Speaker 1: want to say he's a libertarian, but I don't know

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Speaker 1: what's more libertarian than a libertarians. He really hates the government, right,

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Speaker 1: he hates the federal government and wants to destroy it.

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Speaker 2: He's like a Spanish anarchist circa like nineteen thirty seven.

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Speaker 1: He is committed to that, but somehow McCarthy brings him

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Speaker 1: into the inner circle, just like with Jim Jordan, just

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Speaker 1: like with Marjorie Taylor Green, who says the bill is

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Speaker 1: a shuld sandwich and the votes for an anyway. And

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Speaker 1: these guys just show like they actually don't really believe

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Speaker 1: in anything. They just want people to be nice to them.

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Speaker 2: I mean, somebody made a deal with Massey somewhere right,

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Speaker 2: will likely never hear about it. That's what he needed

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Speaker 2: to do. But your larger point is right, they're all transactional.

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Speaker 2: They're all transactional. I mean McCarthy is the most transactional

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Speaker 2: of the bunch. I mean, remember that the only constituency

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Speaker 2: he has are the uber wealthy in corporate America. Right.

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Speaker 2: The people of Bakersfield don't think much about him and

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Speaker 2: his own conference, whether or not it is these super

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Speaker 2: magas or the run of the mills. You know, members

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Speaker 2: of Congress they don't really like. And remember that McCarthy

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Speaker 2: only ever rose into leadership because of his ability to

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Speaker 2: raise money, right, you know he was when he was

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Speaker 2: the whip, he was a terrible whip. He couldn't count votes,

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Speaker 2: nor did I think he even really wanted to. When

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Speaker 2: he was a majority leader, he could barely keep his

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Speaker 2: own conference in line. And now he's gotten one thing

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Speaker 2: done and you know, Molly, at.

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Speaker 3: Least a fifty to fifty chance it's going to cost

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Speaker 3: him his job.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, he definitely is not good at counting

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Speaker 1: the votes. Like said, we've seen this again and again.

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Speaker 1: And you know, he was described by the New York

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Speaker 1: Times is a golden retriever of a man. So you know,

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Speaker 1: he is what he appears. But I'm just curious if we,

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Speaker 1: you know, play the tape forward. What we saw here, right,

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Speaker 1: was that you know, there was a debt debate about

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Speaker 1: what the Republican Party believes. Right really here they are

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Speaker 1: wanting to shrink the bloated spending. And then but on

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Speaker 1: this list of things they believe is they want to

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Speaker 1: make the Trump tax cuts permanent.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, because again that goes back to the idea

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Speaker 2: of I mean, if you think back to what Trump accomplished,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to use that word relatively right for

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Speaker 2: his plutocratic backers. He got massive tax cuts for corporate America,

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Speaker 2: he got massive tax cuts for the evangelical community, he

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Speaker 2: got all sorts of judges, including a six ' to

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Speaker 2: three Supreme Court. And for the white Christian nationalist crowd,

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Speaker 2: he brought them all the anger, poison, and ugliness he

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Speaker 2: could find, so you could make an argument that he

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Speaker 2: did for his people what he promised he would do. Now,

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Speaker 2: Republicans have to continue this tax cut mania because it's

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Speaker 2: really the only thing they have. It's always sounds good

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Speaker 2: on paper, but the truth is, you know, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: pencil out. You know, they want to make these things permanent.

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Speaker 2: But that goes to this, you know, you called it libertarianism.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we're really like in State inn rand Land,

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Speaker 2: which is like, if I've got mine, good for me,

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Speaker 2: and if you haven't got yours, too bad for you.

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Speaker 1: You know, the only idea they have that's popular is

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Speaker 1: cutting taxes. And so if all you have is a hammer,

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Speaker 1: everything looks.

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Speaker 2: Like now, well, yeah, does anyone on April fifteenth say,

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Speaker 2: you know what, I feel so good about writing this

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Speaker 2: check to the Treasury Department? Right, nobody does. You're not

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Speaker 2: supposed to write. But that's part of being a democracy,

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Speaker 2: which is we're all in this together. What the Republicans

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Speaker 2: have done is let the wealthiest of the wealthy say, well,

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Speaker 2: y'all are in this together.

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Speaker 3: We're not.

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Speaker 2: We do what we do. Good luck to the rest

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Speaker 2: of you. And again, yet is it broadly popular. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: because again it sort of scratches that itch. But to me,

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Speaker 2: you know, the wealthy warning text cuts, I think is

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Speaker 2: really just a is a smoke screen for I don't

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Speaker 2: want anybody to ever tell me what to do with

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Speaker 2: my life, my money, my business, whatever. I want to

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Speaker 2: have a separate and a part thing for me and guys.

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Speaker 2: Let guys, mostly guys like me and the rest of

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Speaker 2: you are on your own. And if that's the way

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Speaker 2: of the world, that's too bad for you. Publicans are

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Speaker 2: they're nihilists for the most part, and they're either nihilists

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Speaker 2: actively or they're passively okay with the nihilism that goes

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Speaker 2: on around them.

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Speaker 1: Yes, definitely interesting and not super surprising. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think of it as the burn it all down caucus, right,

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Speaker 1: All they want is to burn it all down. So

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you, now we go straight from

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Speaker 1: the possibility of a catastrophic financial meltdown, which is now

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Speaker 1: over two really good jobs numbers again the Biden economy, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is the thing. Even his fans are

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Speaker 1: hesitant to support him for whatever reason. People are so

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Speaker 1: negative on him, and yet he continues to have the

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Speaker 1: kind of luck that you know, Barack Obama would have

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Speaker 1: killed for.

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Speaker 3: They are two different people in so many ways.

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Speaker 2: Right. President Obama came to the White House, Remember, with

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Speaker 2: very little legislative experience, right, two years in the State Senate,

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Speaker 2: two years in the US Senate, and what he could

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Speaker 2: arguably be thought of as having as a mandate. Remember

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Speaker 2: this is a pretty at the time, right liberal Democrat

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Speaker 2: who won the state of Indiana, in the state of

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Speaker 2: North Carolina, right, I mean, so he was winning in

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Speaker 2: places that no one expected a Democrat to ever win.

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Speaker 2: But I think there was a stylistic difference too, which

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Speaker 2: is he believed he had the mandate. He acted accordingly.

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Speaker 2: But I think the thing that I'm moldy now just

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Speaker 2: coming to realize was how much his election pissed off

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Speaker 2: so many really very conservative white people. I mean, Mitch

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Speaker 2: McConnell said it out loud, it's my job to make

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Speaker 2: him a one term president, right. So it was a

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Speaker 2: combination of I think inexperience and maybe a little bit

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Speaker 2: of hubris on the part of the Obama white House

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Speaker 2: mixed with a very you know, ugly and now we're

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Speaker 2: seeing this, right, it's supercharged sort of the white nationalist

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Speaker 2: ugliness that we're now experiencing today.

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Speaker 1: But I also think Obama inherited really a lot of

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Speaker 1: bad luck.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean, he took over with the worst

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Speaker 2: thing since the Great Depression.

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Speaker 1: I've been very impressed with Biden. But these jobs numbers

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Speaker 1: are a certain amount of luck too, I mean, because

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Speaker 1: nobody is expecting this.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, but I mean, you know, I saw a

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Speaker 2: New York Times headline that says, you know, jobs numbers

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Speaker 2: outpace expectations. Again, well, how many months in a row

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Speaker 2: do you have to have good jobs numbers before you say, well,

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Speaker 2: maybe maybe the economy is doing okay. Because everybody we're

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Speaker 2: you know, I mean, for the last twenty plus years, Molly,

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Speaker 2: we're always expecting the next catastrophe, and the last twenty

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Speaker 2: years have had in a pond full of what's supposed

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Speaker 2: to be white swan it's just full of black sworms.

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Speaker 2: Now it's like, okay, well, when's it going to end?

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Speaker 2: When's the next shoe going to drop? And so when

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Speaker 2: good things happen, it's always going to be Okay, Well

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Speaker 2: we got lucky again, right, we got lucky again. Now,

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Speaker 2: maybe we are. Where I live is a relatively small town,

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Speaker 2: but there's not a restaurant or a store that doesn't

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Speaker 2: have a help wanted sign on the window. There doesn't

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Speaker 2: appear to be a shortage of work available. It seems

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Speaker 2: like we're short of people to do it.

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Speaker 1: Now. That brings us to another Republican fuck up, which

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Speaker 1: is their complete and utter disinterest in fixing immigration. I mean,

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Speaker 1: luckily they're passing child labor laws so we can have

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Speaker 1: children working. That's my own irony. But I mean, just

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Speaker 1: you know, they're really I mean, you see, Sarah Sanders,

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Speaker 1: they have been reworking these child labor laws, obviously in

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Speaker 1: the hopes of keeping these big companies from getting in trouble.

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Speaker 1: But I think it is a really salient and worrying

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Speaker 1: situation here.

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Speaker 3: I think that's right.

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Speaker 2: But it goes back to the idea of if there

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Speaker 2: is a reasonable and humanitarian way to solve two issues,

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Speaker 2: which is, we have people that want to come here,

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Speaker 2: as we always have, and we have jobs available to them.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Remember, if you are an upper middle class French person,

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Speaker 2: you don't need to come to the United States if

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Speaker 2: you live in Guatemala. Right, and the choices are really good.

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Speaker 2: Chance that either me or a member of my family

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Speaker 2: lives in abject poverty or experiences a violent death, or

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Speaker 2: I can track the thousand miles north to the United

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Speaker 2: States and try and make a better life, Like what

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Speaker 2: are you going to do? And so we can solve

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Speaker 2: two problems, which is give people a humanitarian outlet while

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Speaker 2: providing people to do the jobs that frankly, in a

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Speaker 2: post industrial country, most Americans aren't.

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Speaker 3: Going to do.

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Speaker 2: But this is the point, this is the ugliness of them,

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Speaker 2: which is, you know what, can't find enough people to

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Speaker 2: work at the port processing plant. Tell the fourteen year

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Speaker 2: old go do it. You go hack up a bunch

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Speaker 2: of you know, Boston pork butts eight hours a day.

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Speaker 3: And if you lose a thumb, eh.

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Speaker 1: Too bad, right right, right? No, I mean that I

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Speaker 1: think that's ultimately what we're seeing. So my question is, now,

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Speaker 1: on the trail we have Trump and then we have

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Speaker 1: all of the people pretending to be Trump. Why is

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Speaker 1: there really no one in the never Trump lane of

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Speaker 1: this GOP primary challenge.

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Speaker 2: I would say this because they're all afraid of it,

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Speaker 2: most importantly, and none of them understand what it takes

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Speaker 2: to beat him, which is, well, first of all, look,

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Speaker 2: I've seen a bunch of stories, Molly, you know, oh well,

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Speaker 2: you know, the broad the expanding primary field will make

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Speaker 2: it easier for Trump to win. It could be one

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Speaker 2: on one, it could be one verse ten. You know,

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Speaker 2: he's going to I believe he's going to be the nominee.

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Speaker 2: You know, if so long as he's got a solid

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Speaker 2: forty to forty five percent of the primary electorate, it's

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Speaker 2: really darn near impossible.

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Speaker 3: To beat him. But well, let me say this.

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Speaker 2: They've made a deal with the devil doctor Faustus, made

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Speaker 2: his deal with mister Mephistopheles, and this is all coming

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Speaker 2: home to roost, which is they know they can't win

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Speaker 2: without the Trump be primary voters. They can't win a primary.

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Speaker 2: But The problem is is if they were to beat him,

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Speaker 2: thirty percent of the party stays home, right, and they

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Speaker 2: lose in the general, And look, maybe that's the best

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Speaker 2: outcome for everybody. Trump loses goes crazy. He says it

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Speaker 2: was stolen from him. You've got the RNC and the

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Speaker 2: GOP overlords such as they are in Washington. GC said, God,

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Speaker 2: thank god, he's done. But you get crushed in thirty

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Speaker 2: five states because every MAGA guy and gal in target

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Speaker 2: states stays home, so they don't see any way to

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Speaker 2: do it. The other part, too, is none of them

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Speaker 2: understand that to beat him, you must be on him

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Speaker 2: all day, every day. They must collectively do it. DeSantis

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Speaker 2: does it. The problem is that you know he's willing

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Speaker 2: to do it, but a he's no better as either

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Speaker 2: a human being or a leader.

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Speaker 1: I think he's much scarier.

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Speaker 2: He is because he's been willing to do it. But

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Speaker 2: he's also a terrible candidate. I mean, he is awful.

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Speaker 1: That's the best thing about him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean he is really.

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Speaker 2: I mean, just as someone who's spent more time in

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Speaker 2: like Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina and Nevada,

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Speaker 2: you name.

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Speaker 3: It, Like he is awful at this.

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Speaker 2: As our friend Stuart Stevens likes to say, you know,

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Speaker 2: running for president is a study in humiliation. This is

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Speaker 2: a guy who does not like to be humiliated. He

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Speaker 2: can't even pretend like he's having a good time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I also think that it's a question of, like,

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Speaker 1: this guy is bad. I mean, I don't understand, but

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Speaker 1: I mean he is also, like I think, a really

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Speaker 1: scary authoritarian. Like if you were a country that was

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Speaker 1: about to slip into authoritarianism, wouldn't you want the guy

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Speaker 1: who can do Trumpism without Trump? Well?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think this You're making a really good

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Speaker 2: point here too, which is for all of those same

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Speaker 2: plutocrats I was talking about earlier, or you know what

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Speaker 2: passes for conservative intelligentsia now right the National Review people

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Speaker 2: is they're happy to take what Trump represents so long

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Speaker 2: as they can run it through the car wash and

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Speaker 2: it comes out looking like Ronda Santis. And I think

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Speaker 2: that's a really important thing for us to remember, is

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Speaker 2: that Ronda Santis is no better. He is worse in

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Speaker 2: some ways. You're absolutely right, But the normals, so to speak,

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Speaker 2: the quote unquote normies are happy to take him because

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Speaker 2: his name isn't Donald Trump?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: They could theoretically take him to the country club or

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Speaker 2: the yacht club or out to a fancy restaurant and

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Speaker 2: he won't embarrass them. Whereas you know, as well as

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Speaker 2: I do, like Trump comes rolling in like a golden steamroller,

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Speaker 2: an orange pancake steamroller, and is the center of everything,

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Speaker 2: and everybody's got a smile and not and go. Can

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Speaker 2: you believe he's really doing this and saying this? Whereas

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Speaker 2: DeSantis might be weird, but at least you know he's

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Speaker 2: got a pretty wife and a family and everything else,

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Speaker 2: and you can polish him up long enough to get

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Speaker 2: him through dinner without embarrassing you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, though you can't. It turns out you can't.

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Speaker 1: But yes, thank you so much. I hope you'll come back.

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Speaker 3: Great, absolutely, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Barbara Comstock is a former Republican congresswoman. Welcome to Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: Barbara Comstock.

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Speaker 4: Great to be with you, Molly.

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Speaker 1: Very excited to have you as actually right now, as

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Speaker 1: we go right from debt ceiling drama to GOP primary drama,

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Speaker 1: you were a member of this party or maybe still are,

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Speaker 1: I mean, what is your take?

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Speaker 4: It is distressing I take it individual by individual, you know,

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Speaker 4: sort of. I guess I'm kind of a Liz Cheney

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Speaker 4: Adam Kinsinger Republican. When you look at the presidential candidates,

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Speaker 4: Asa Hutchinson is a friend, Kristin Huno is a friend.

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Speaker 4: So you know, any of the Republicans polling under five

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Speaker 4: percent after the presidential campaign, those those are those are

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Speaker 4: my friends. Yeah, So it's it is distressing on that front.

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Speaker 4: But when you see the fireworks now going on between

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis, who you know, every time

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Speaker 4: I see them kind of now going out each other,

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Speaker 4: I am reminded of Logan Roy when he said it

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Speaker 4: to his children, you aren't serious people. That can very

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Speaker 4: easily be applied to Donald Trump and Ron desantists. And

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Speaker 4: so I want to remain ever hopeful because I do

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Speaker 4: think it's important that we have a two part of system.

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Speaker 4: There might be a chance to have a Republican nominee

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Speaker 4: who might be a serious person. Right now that doesn't

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Speaker 4: look too promising, but I do think with the entrance

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Speaker 4: of Chris Christy, who I think, you know is I

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Speaker 4: think Peggy Noonon had a good column today talking about how,

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Speaker 4: you know, his main mission is going to be to

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Speaker 4: stop Donald Trump, and he kind of has the book

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Speaker 4: on Trump and why he's unfit and can kind of

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Speaker 4: go through that and take a pretty you know, as

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Speaker 4: a prosecutor, kind of go through and really take it

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Speaker 4: to him. Liz Cheney can do the same thing if

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Speaker 4: she gets in, because she's got chapter and verse on

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Speaker 4: the January sixth story and can be very precise on that.

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Speaker 4: So if either, you know, either of them can do

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Speaker 4: that then and then the indictments come that might take

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Speaker 4: Trump down a notch. The fight between Trump and DeSantis

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Speaker 4: will take both of them down. So then does that

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Speaker 4: give an opening for a more serious person? So it

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Speaker 4: might be in flux. I'd like to be hopeful that

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Speaker 4: there might be a serious person, But you know, that's

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Speaker 4: I think it's important that we have a two party system,

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Speaker 4: but right now it doesn't look real promising on that.

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Speaker 1: We have Desanta's running to the right of Trump, which

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Speaker 1: is a very very very narrow lane.

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Speaker 4: Yes, well, Trump is just about Trump, So when you

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Speaker 4: really talk ideologically, it's hard to you really can't put

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Speaker 4: him in a category because he's just about himself. Like

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Speaker 4: when you saw him yesterday saying woke, woke, woke, you know,

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Speaker 4: nobody knows what woke is. Well, of course Trump himself

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Speaker 4: was out about woke. But now that that's you know

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Speaker 4: that is, I mean, I think it's silly too. And

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Speaker 4: it was funny just the other night I was at

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Speaker 4: an event where a Republican, a local Republican who I

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Speaker 4: do support because he's somebody here locally who doesn't talk

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Speaker 4: like the silly desantisis and Donald Trump, and when he

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Speaker 4: sends out a memo or a newsletter, he says, well,

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Speaker 4: here's the problems going on in our communities. We've had

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Speaker 4: break ins in these neighborhoods, We've had this type of crime,

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Speaker 4: and here's what's going on, and here's what I'm doing

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Speaker 4: about it. And he gives you chapter and verse of

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Speaker 4: what he's doing. And he doesn't talk in these silly

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Speaker 4: slogans and doesn't use the word woke, and doesn't you know,

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Speaker 4: he's very practical. And so I just said, you know,

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Speaker 4: thank you for not talking that silly lingo all the time.

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Speaker 4: So when they heard what Donald Trump said, somebody sent

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Speaker 4: me this email. Oh gee, Donald Trump now agrees with Barbara. No, no, no,

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Speaker 4: it's just the broken clock happened to be.

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Speaker 1: Right, I mean, like think of a Tim Scott. Tim

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Speaker 1: Scott when he announced, there was a sense maybe that

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Speaker 1: he would run as a sort of not Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: But as he's been in the race, and you saw

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Speaker 1: so Nicky Haley too, they've I mean Nicky Haley. If

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Speaker 1: you think about her before she became trumpy, you know,

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Speaker 1: you would think like there's sort of more of a

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Speaker 1: case for her when she runs as not trumpy. But

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Speaker 1: what she and a bunch of these candidates have done

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Speaker 1: is they've really just sort of become like lesser versions

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Speaker 1: of Trump. And I just think it's infected the rest

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Speaker 1: of the party.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. No, and that's and that's what the big problem is.

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Speaker 4: And I know recently I was talking an interview where

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Speaker 4: I said, you know, if you're if you're not, if

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Speaker 4: you're just going to be a cheerleader for Trump or

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Speaker 4: many Trump, then don't run. Go be part of his

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Speaker 4: you know, little cheerleader squad. If you're going to run,

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Speaker 4: you know, you have to be your own person. You

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Speaker 4: have to be out there telling your story and be

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Speaker 4: a leader. How to follow and not has been the problem.

433
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 4: And that is why you know, I do like somebody

434
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 4: like a sat known him since he was in Congress.

435
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 4: He's a serious lawyer. He headed up the DA, so

436
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,119
Speaker 4: he has serious ideas about, you know, how do you

437
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 4: deal with fentanyl. You know, he's been down on the

438
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,959
Speaker 4: border talking about the border. He hasn't just been doing

439
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,199
Speaker 4: the reflexive Fox News attacks on the border. You know,

440
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 4: he has some thoughtful ideas from when he was you know,

441
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 4: at Homeland Security about what are some things you can do.

442
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 4: Will Hurd, who may or may not. You know, he's

443
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,879
Speaker 4: been talking about maybe running for president. He had a

444
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 4: border district so and he also supports immigration before him,

445
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 4: so he has some serious ideas on that. So those

446
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,199
Speaker 4: are the type of people we need, you know, who

447
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 4: want to be leaders, who you know, we need to run.

448
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 4: Not people who think, well, oh the party is here,

449
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 4: so that's what we need to do. We need to

450
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 4: have leaders who maybe will bring the party another direction.

451
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 4: And if the party doesn't go there, if you can't

452
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 4: lead people, then you're not going to win anyway. Because

453
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 4: I don't see Trump winning. I mean when you look

454
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,120
Speaker 4: at the swing states, so I mean if he gets

455
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 4: the nomination, we just lose again. I mean only will

456
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 4: be close. I know Democrats worry, but I think When

457
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 4: you look at the swing states that Trump lost, they've

458
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 4: moved more democratic direction eight Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin. You know,

459
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 4: we all know that in you know, you have strong governors,

460
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 4: democratic governors in those states now. And even you know

461
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 4: in Arizona, where people thought, oh, no, you know, Carry

462
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 4: Lake looked you know, I mean, it's amazing when you

463
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 4: look at last year where even Democrats were worried that

464
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 4: Carry Lake looked strong. I mean, dog Master never looked strong,

465
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 4: but people thought, oh, but Carrie Lake. You know, she

466
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 4: dressed nicely, she spoke, you know, more eloquently than a

467
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 4: Doug Mastriano. But there are Republicans like me, they're independents

468
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 4: who they're not going back for these authitarian people. If

469
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 4: they dress them up nicely and they look attractive, we

470
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 4: see through that, and I think people they're not going

471
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 4: back there to that party. They're not going back to Trump.

472
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 4: And you can't dress up candidates, no matter what they

473
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 4: look like, to go back. So listen. I never was

474
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 4: somebody who thought Biden was a good candidate all along

475
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 4: the way. But if it's Trump versus Biden, I think

476
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 4: there's going to be plenty of you know, enough Republicans

477
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:42,400
Speaker 4: and certainly enough independents who are Ford were pro democracy

478
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 4: and that's what's last year, and that's where we're at,

479
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 4: regardless of you, because this authoritarian bent with Trump, with DeSantis,

480
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 4: this is for the country first and foremost, but it's

481
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 4: also destructive for Republicans. And until that gets washed out

482
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 4: of the party, there's a lot of Republicans who aren't

483
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 4: going to be coming back. And it doesn't attract the

484
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 4: independent it's either in these silly fights. I mean, you know,

485
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 4: between DeSantis and Trump are just about who's more authoritarian.

486
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 4: Santis the other day says, well, you know, we're sick

487
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 4: of these people imposing their will on us. We will

488
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 4: impose our will, sort of the libertarian bent of Republicans said,

489
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 4: we want to be the you know, the leave us

490
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 4: alone coalitionea of imposing our will. Is not the center

491
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 4: right coalition that I was ever a part of. And

492
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 4: that a lot. And when you hear DeSantis saying that,

493
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 4: it just is cringe. He's just such a bad candidate anyway,

494
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 4: the things that he says, when he's saying things like, oh,

495
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 4: Trump didn't do a good job, or Trump's just you know,

496
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 4: performance well so much of what he's done and has

497
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 4: ended up in court, whether it's the Disney things or

498
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 4: acts on social media companies which I work with, you know,

499
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 4: tech companies and social media companies. But you know he's

500
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 4: been suing them and he's not doing very well in court,

501
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 4: and conservative lawyers have taken him to court because and

502
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 4: he's not doing well. So plenty of his things have

503
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 4: ended up in court, just like Donald Trump ended up

504
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 4: in court. You know, his record is not so hot either.

505
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 4: The idea that you know, in his whole attack on

506
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 4: the federal workforce, which I live in Virginia, I represented

507
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 4: that so it attack on the so called deep state

508
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 4: is just as ridiculous as Donald Trump. So both of

509
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 4: them just are kind of you know, different versions of

510
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 4: you stick with my succession, Logan Roy, different versions of

511
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 4: Kendall or Roman Roy. Right, you know, there's silly people

512
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 4: who should not be in charge of things, and both

513
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 4: of them have already demonstrated that in so many ways. Yeah,

514
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 4: I think Chris Christy getting in and then I think

515
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 4: when we get to debates also grown ups like you know,

516
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 4: ASA being on stage, whether it's Kristan Unu or others

517
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 4: who will hopefully be able to point it out, and

518
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 4: I hope with Tim Scott and others who've been reluctant

519
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 4: to take on Trump or Desantas, I well, actually, you know,

520
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 4: Nikki Haley, Tim Scott, Mike Pence, they have pointed out

521
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 4: that the Disney thing is silly because why are Republicans

522
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 4: attacking businesses? Why are we attacking the free market system.

523
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 4: If you don't like what a company's doing, you don't

524
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 4: have to, you know, take part in their business. But

525
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 4: we aren't the people who were attacking businesses, you know.

526
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 4: Now those people don't want to eat at Chick fil A.

527
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 5: The left didn't like Chick fil A because they were

528
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 5: right anti gay.

529
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's just silly.

530
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: But here's my question about this. So Trump is actually

531
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 1: sort of even though he's very popular in the primary field,

532
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: he's quite diminished in the regular field. And we've seen

533
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: this again and again. He doesn't have the same power

534
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 1: you know, he can like it used to be when

535
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: he first came on the scene. You know, if he

536
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: tweeted about you. I don't know if you ever had

537
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 1: that experience, but you know you would see death threats,

538
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: you would. I mean, it was really quite scary. And

539
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: he has a base. They're crazy, but a lot of

540
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 1: them going to jail may have heard their resolved. But

541
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: I'm just curious, like, do you think some of the

542
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 1: anxiety about criticizing Trump is sort of left over from

543
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: when Trump.

544
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 5: Used to be this all powerful People should not be

545
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 5: afraid of criticizing him, I mean I from I mean,

546
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 5: I didn't support him in twenty sixteen when I was

547
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 5: on the Bautlet.

548
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 4: With him, and I ended up out running him by

549
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 4: twelve points in my district, and I did better in

550
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 4: my district in every part of my district. I mean,

551
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 4: when I lost in twenty eighteen, it was because people

552
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 4: in my district didn't like Trump and they wanted Democrats

553
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 4: to be in the majority and then they could impeach him,

554
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 4: which supported support him in twenty twenty either, So you know,

555
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 4: criticizing him, certainly when he was in office, it did

556
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 4: get you attacked, obviously, you know, Janey Adam Ginsinger. Certainly

557
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 4: it can get you a primary. That kind of thing

558
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 4: can happen, but it's not as bad as people. I think.

559
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 4: Actually having Tucker Carlson off the air right happened to Fox.

560
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 4: I think that has lessened sort of the death threat things.

561
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 4: I mean, I worked with, you know, helping you know,

562
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 4: the cops you know who went through the January sixth

563
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 4: night mire. They still do get threats when you know,

564
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 4: like when Tucker Carlson put the January sixth stuff on air,

565
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 4: there's two or three nights that he did it. You know,

566
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 4: then people either show up at their house or send

567
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 4: them messages. They'll happened then. But now that he's gone,

568
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 4: the temperature has come down. So I think that has

569
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 4: been a wonderful thing to have him gone. I think

570
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 4: it also maybe taught the others a little bit of

571
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 4: a lesson too. And Trump, look, he attacked Kaylee mcannaney

572
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 4: and then some of these people saying, oh, don't attack Kaylee.

573
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 4: January six didn't do it, But attacking the poor little

574
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 4: blonde did. What does that say about you? More than

575
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 4: you know? But he's still Trump still goes out and

576
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 4: attacks the officer who shot Ashley Babbitt, who was trying,

577
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 4: you know, to protect all of the members of risk

578
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 4: and he's been totally exonerated, and that officer, you know,

579
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 4: I don't know the nature of the threats that continue

580
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 4: against him, but you know, those officers do continue to

581
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 4: get threats, and Trump is still probably a daily threat

582
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 4: to them, and that is horrendous and that enrages me

583
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 4: to this day. Those threats still are there and they

584
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 4: still need to be called out, but hopefully they are lessoned.

585
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: People need to.

586
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 4: I mean, the reason I continue to speak out against

587
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 4: him is because I think those people shouldn't have to

588
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 4: and those of us who have a voice who can

589
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 4: do it and should do it so that they don't

590
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 4: have to because it's harder for them to do it.

591
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 4: They don't.

592
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 6: I mean, I.

593
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 4: Don't have people protecting me either, but they shouldn't have

594
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 4: to do it. They didn't sign up for this. You know,

595
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 4: people who are in office are the ones or were

596
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 4: in office, are the ones who signed up to do

597
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 4: this and should be protecting people like that, not forcing

598
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 4: them to have to be in that position. But I

599
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 4: think you're right. I think it's lessened and I think

600
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 4: people he's a lesser person. And when he was indicted

601
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 4: and had to go in, you know, and Marjorie Green

602
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 4: tried to get people riled up, they didn't get riled up.

603
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 4: When they went and took the documents from mar A Lago,

604
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 4: there was less of a you know, there wasn't much

605
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 4: going on there. And I think when he is indicted,

606
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 4: and I do think I'll be indicted again, I don't

607
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 4: think you'll see that big of a response. And hopefully

608
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 4: a lot of these Republicans will instead of being cheerleaders

609
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 4: for him and saying, oh, poor Donald, it's unfair, they'll

610
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 4: do what Asa Hutchison did as a former prosecutor. And

611
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 4: I think Chris Christy will do this and say these

612
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 4: are serious indictments. They should be respected. Now, they should

613
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 4: go through the legal process and let the jury decide. Certainly,

614
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 4: that's how you know, the Egene Carroll process should be respected.

615
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 4: I would see some of these guys say, oh, that

616
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 4: shouldn't be respected. Why not. That's a jury that looked

617
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 4: at the facts. Donald Trump wouldn't even go in and

618
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 4: face a jury. Trump always does poorly when he has

619
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 4: to go into court put his hand up and the

620
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 4: law in truth, you know, are what he has to

621
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 4: count on. He never does well in that situation when

622
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 4: he can't bs and you know, count on trying to

623
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 4: fool the people, you know. So that's when it all

624
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 4: comes crashing down on him. So I think, you know

625
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 4: you're at least going to have two prosecutors on the

626
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 4: stage against him, hopefully Asa and Chris Christy, And if

627
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 4: Liz Cheney comes in, you're gonna have three prosecutors up

628
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 4: there who really know how to tell the truth on him.

629
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: Do you think Liz Cheney will come in.

630
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 4: I'm not sure, but I'd love to see her do that.

631
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 4: But I think she obviously is committed to you know,

632
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 4: she put up that ad that went up in New

633
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 4: Hampshire when he did that horrible CNN debate, I mean

634
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 4: town Hall, and you know, she is committed to making

635
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 4: sure he is never in office again. She will be

636
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 4: engaged in that process, which is a good thing. And

637
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 4: I think you know, she was willing to, you know,

638
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 4: I mean she made a choice. Yeah, her own personal

639
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 4: career was more important. The constitution and the role of

640
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 4: law was more important than living a lie. And I

641
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 4: think that was an easy choice for her to make,

642
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 4: and for her and for Adam, you know, were I

643
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 4: think they were frankly surprised that it wasn't easier for others.

644
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 4: But I think she'll continue to do that. So I

645
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 4: think that's good for the country, and I think that's

646
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 4: one of the many reasons. It doesn't take that many

647
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 4: people to do it to, you know, kind of pull

648
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 4: down the emperor has no close And I think more

649
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 4: and more people are seeing that, and that's why I mean,

650
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 4: people forgot. People got very upset with that town hall.

651
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 4: But people forgot. Donald Trump lost New Hampshire twice in

652
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 4: the general election. Candidates all lost last year in New Hampshire.

653
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 4: So that audience, which was a bunch of those people

654
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 4: who supported the losers, basically, you know, so he was

655
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 4: sitting there in front of people who voted for losers

656
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 4: and voted for him, so you know, yeah, okay, these

657
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 4: are the people who cheered the losers, picked the losers,

658
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 4: and big surprise, they're sitting there once again bopping for losers.

659
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 4: These people don't know how to pick winners so bad.

660
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 4: But these are the people who may be probably even

661
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 4: reluctantly voted for Kristinunu, who Trump would call a rhino.

662
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 4: Yet here he is the most successful politician they have

663
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 4: in New Hampshire. And a lot of those Trump people

664
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 4: are like, oh yeah, well, Kristin n It's like, yeah,

665
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 4: one of the most popular governors in the country and

666
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 4: in New Hampshire, and the base of the party doesn't

667
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 4: like him as much as Trump. And the reason in

668
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 4: New Hampshire is a state that's in good shape, it

669
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 4: is because of Christanoon.

670
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: Barbara Comstot, thank you so much for joining us. I

671
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: hope he'll come back.

672
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 4: Oh great to be with you.

673
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 6: Molly.

674
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: Hi, it's Molly and I am wildly excited that for

675
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 1: the first time, Fast Politics, the show you're listening to

676
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: right now, is going to have merch for sale over

677
00:35:52,239 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: at shop dot fastpoliticspod dot com. You can now buy hats, hoodies,

678
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 1: and toe bags with our incredible designs. We've heard your

679
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: cries to spread the word about our podcast and get

680
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: a tow bag with my adorable Leo the Rescue Puppy

681
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 1: on it. And now you can grab this merchandise only

682
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: at shop dot fastpoliticspod dot com. Thanks for your support.

683
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: Kurt Anderson is the author of Evil Geniuses. Welcome to

684
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: Fast Politics, Kurt Anderson.

685
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 6: I couldn't be happier to have returned.

686
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you're on today, and you're such a

687
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,879
Speaker 1: good writer. Let's just take a minute to talk about

688
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: what a good writer you are.

689
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 6: Why.

690
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 1: Thanks, I'm super per snickitty, but I want to talk

691
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: to you about this idea, because you've written a lot

692
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: about this idea and I feel like you were at

693
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 1: the beginning of it and it's gotten more true. Which

694
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: is this idea of a fantasy land?

695
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, it's his book. You know. I started

696
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 6: working on it twoloy fourteen, before Donald Trump was around, really,

697
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 6: and then it was finished. He had just as he

698
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 6: was about to get the denomination, and it came out

699
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 6: just after he became president. You know, it was a

700
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 6: strange idea at the time, because I was saying what

701
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 6: now people say every day all over the world and

702
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 6: all over the media about the United States and the

703
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 6: world and trump Ism and all the rest, which is that, well,

704
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 6: if we don't agree on facts, and we have all

705
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 6: these alternative facts, we can't have a country where this

706
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 6: can't go on. Well, it's remarkable that only, you know,

707
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 6: six years ago, this was a strange idea and this

708
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 6: is going to be a strange little history book. But

709
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 6: then Donald Trump came along and became its avatar and

710
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 6: epitome and here we are, so yeah, there we are.

711
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 6: And then yes, and I have been seeing it continue

712
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 6: and was interested in this new way of what's real

713
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 6: what's fictional, how do they how do they intersect and

714
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 6: pro creator whatever they do in art and things like succession,

715
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 6: which I think it did masterfully and beautiful.

716
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 1: So let's talk about that idea. It's both real and

717
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 1: unreal and wrong that it's so real.

718
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it obviously inspired by the Murdochs and

719
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 6: Fox News, right, but that doesn't mean it's not a

720
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 6: bio pick. It's not really a Romano claim trying to

721
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 6: go by the letter of oh, this is James murch,

722
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 6: this is Lachlin m this is Rupert Murac, right, but

723
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 6: there are resemblances, and that's interesting. Moreover, it's interesting as

724
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 6: Fox News is doing what it's doing and being so

725
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 6: central to the fuckinging of America as it has been

726
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 6: and is, and so as the show went on and

727
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 6: because of how the show was, Okay, it's like a

728
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 6: season of episodes, nine or ten episodes and then a

729
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 6: year off, and as we were dealing with Trump and

730
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 6: the aftermath of Trump and all all that that meant,

731
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 6: and Fox news Is involvement was it was extraordinary. Of course,

732
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 6: let's stipulate. I believe it was an amazingly well written

733
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 6: and well produced show as well doing this. It wasn't

734
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 6: just flittering back and forth with what's real and what's not.

735
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 6: For those of us who loved it, and I understand

736
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 6: all the various reasons that people who didn't love it

737
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 6: didn't love it, well there's no one to root for,

738
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 6: or oh that's bad enough, I don't need to see

739
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 6: versions of it on television, all those reasons, Okay, fine, whatever,

740
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 6: But for those of us who loved it, it was,

741
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 6: as I say in the piece, it was this uncanny

742
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 6: valley unlike any I've ever been to of like this

743
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 6: is very real in so many ways, and then you

744
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 6: know that has its ups and downs, as we saw

745
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 6: in the show is for me, one of the at

746
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 6: least blips in the road or the bumps in the

747
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 6: road or something. Was their election night show a few

748
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 6: a couple or three weeks ago. It was extraordinary, and

749
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 6: of course because it was about people who have a

750
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 6: Fox News channel and who make movies and television, people

751
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 6: who are in the business of simply getting people to

752
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 6: watch their stuff, which is all that the media and

753
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 6: entertainment business is about, at any cost and at any price,

754
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 6: and damn the collateral damage. It was very complicated and

755
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 6: I spent way too long trying to parse it out

756
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 6: and write this piece about it.

757
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: So Fox News probably one of the elements that has

758
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: led to the precariousness in which we find ourselves an

759
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 1: American democracy.

760
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 6: In American democracy. And I don't want to use the

761
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 6: word epistemology because people will even and I go, what

762
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 6: does that mean? But like what is true and how

763
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 6: you know something is true or real? There is no

764
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 6: greater single entity responsible for this part of the problem,

765
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 6: apart from just the specific freaks that it has empowered

766
00:40:58,120 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 6: in our politics.

767
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: I don't think you're going to have a Donald Trump

768
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: presidency without the existence of the Fox News could be.

769
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 6: When I wrote this book, Fantasy Land, Too, I went

770
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,280
Speaker 6: back and forth and as it came out, I thought like, Oh,

771
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 6: did Trump cause this? No, not really, because you know,

772
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 6: I had been writing about its imminence and kind of

773
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 6: inevitable coming when Trump was niven around to strike the

774
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 6: match and pour gas on the flames he did that

775
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 6: would this had gone this way without him specifically? Probably,

776
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 6: But it's a counterfactual. We can never test same with

777
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 6: Fox News. But I think you're probably right, And I

778
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 6: think a Fox News that was a normal conservative channel

779
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,280
Speaker 6: in the way that MSNBC is a normal liberal channel,

780
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 6: wouldn't have done this. I don't think, you know, there

781
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 6: still would have been this outpouring of rabble gone wild

782
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 6: that are the magas for lots of reasons. Yeah, I

783
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 6: don't think it would have gone as far as dangerously

784
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 6: awry without maybe not without Trump too. I mean they

785
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 6: were both kind of triggers or fuses on the pile

786
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 6: of kindling that set it off.

787
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: I mean, we've talked about this. Last time you were

788
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,280
Speaker 1: on the podcast, we talked about this, and I don't

789
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: think we need to like go crazy on this, but

790
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: it is. You do know Trump from the years in

791
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: which he wanted something from you.

792
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 6: I do, and actually I mean know him. I had

793
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 6: correspondence with him. I never sat down and hung out

794
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 6: with him. Yeah, I have a long history with him

795
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 6: and then and most recently in the Eugene Carroll trial,

796
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 6: I was reminded of some of the specifics of that

797
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 6: history because Egene's main witness, my friend's a Burnbach. You know,

798
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 6: I'd sent her down to do when I ran New

799
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 6: York Magazine to do a piece about Trump and mar

800
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 6: A Lago and stuff, and that became a small but

801
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 6: not insignificant issue in the case, and so forth and

802
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 6: so on. So yeah, I have been following him and

803
00:42:55,320 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 6: his very uncertain grip on reality. And I may have

804
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 6: mentioned this last time, but these correspondents I have with

805
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 6: him about that piece that Lisa wrote about him and

806
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 6: mar A Lago, which he wrote to me to complain about.

807
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 6: And I said, but dude, it's just your words. It's

808
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 6: just it's not there's an introduction and then it's just

809
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,919
Speaker 6: you talking. He said, yeah, I know, but it's still

810
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 6: it's really unfair.

811
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: How is it unfair if he said it.

812
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 6: Well, because he is used to being He was certainly

813
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 6: in nineteen ninety whatever that was six, still used to

814
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 6: being portrayed by the press in some semi flattering way,

815
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 6: rather than the letting his words hanging, which is what

816
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:36,879
Speaker 6: we did.

817
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 1: I wonder. So there was a period. I always think

818
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 1: about this, and you tell me if you think I'm crazy.

819
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:49,399
Speaker 1: There was a period in the nineties when magazines were really,

820
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: really mean to celebrities, and then there was a period

821
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 1: in the early two thousands this sort of InStyle magazine,

822
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 1: the bloom of these like they're not quite pr pitches,

823
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: but they almost are. And do you think that that,

824
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: coupled with reality television created the world of unreality in

825
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 1: a certain way? I mean, obviously the political elements, the

826
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: kind of George Wallacy that stuff comes back to reconstruction,

827
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 1: to the Civil War and even before that. And you know,

828
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: racism has been alive in this country as long as

829
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,240
Speaker 1: there's been a country, and in the nineties that roared

830
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 1: back and really did. But I'm just curious, do you

831
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: think that in those twenty tens, this kind of glossy

832
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: media plus reality television helped this fantasy land along?

833
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,720
Speaker 6: Oh? I yes, all those things you mentioned are part

834
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 6: of it, you know, speaking of kiddling and fuses and

835
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 6: gas and the fire and how it was created. What

836
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 6: I will take issue with is the media were mean

837
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 6: to famous people. Nah. I mean I ran one that was,

838
00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:59,439
Speaker 6: but by and large not so much.

839
00:44:59,560 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

840
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 6: Yes, in the nineties, certainly the in style I mean

841
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 6: began was part of this period of like, let's just

842
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 6: make it a big advertorial where you can buy the

843
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 6: makeup and the underwear that these stars talk about wearing,

844
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 6: and it'll be love letters to them and you can

845
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 6: live in this. You can pretend you know them and then,

846
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 6: of course, and reality TV absolutely a giant part of this.

847
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 6: You know, what's real, what's true, what's fiction, what's scripted?

848
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 6: We don't know, it's all a jumble. Happened of course

849
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,879
Speaker 6: in the nineties and odds as well. And what else

850
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 6: was happening right then, Well, the Internet, you know, and

851
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 6: so suddenly you could have people, for instance, who said

852
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 6: that vaccines cause autism, have a means to make that

853
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 6: a big deal and spread it around and en lists

854
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 6: believers and so on and so forth for the next

855
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,240
Speaker 6: you know, for the twenty five years since. So yeah,

856
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 6: that was all part of the media soup, the poison

857
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 6: to this media soup that led us to where we are.

858
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 1: So magazines basically, and I mean I say this is

859
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: someone who loves magazines works for magazines. Magazines basically they're

860
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: sort of a ghost of their former selves, and those

861
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: ad dollars have really gone to like Instagram and tech

862
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: companies largely. Do you think there's a world where these

863
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: things switch back, or do you think there's a world

864
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: where content is embraced by I mean, I feel like

865
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 1: the biggest mistake any of us did was calling it content.

866
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 6: Well I never did call it content. I still haven't.

867
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 6: I hated it.

868
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 3: I can't.

869
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 6: I won't say that except in scare quotes. I'll say

870
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 6: it sometimes.

871
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 1: Right.

872
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 6: The thing about magazines and newspapers and good ones I

873
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:46,760
Speaker 6: mean is that, well, the New York Times still exists

874
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 6: as the New York Times to kind of in a way,

875
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 6: a more thunderingly important central extent. I mean, it was

876
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 6: that way, and then it became less that way. But

877
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 6: I would say in the current day it's still a

878
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 6: big thing. Also with magazine, right, I mean, no, magazines

879
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:03,919
Speaker 6: don't exist in a thing you buy once a week

880
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 6: or once a month, and it has a sensibility and

881
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 6: a curatorial thing that oh, here's the stories that these

882
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 6: editors wanted you to read. No One, I mean very

883
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 6: fewer and fewer people read magazines in that sense. However,

884
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 6: the good magazines, The Atlantic, the New Yorker, many more

885
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 6: we could name, still spend money on good journalism and

886
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 6: publish it. Now those don't. People don't consume them in

887
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,800
Speaker 6: that package anymore. They go and read this one online

888
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 6: from Vanity Fair, and this one online from Scientific America,

889
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 6: and this one online.

890
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 4: You know.

891
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 6: So, even though yes, the magazine era died as soon

892
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 6: as I left it. Good journalism and long form journalism

893
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 6: still exists, I don't know, maybe as healthily a quantity

894
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 6: as it did, you know, twenty years ago. Even though

895
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,479
Speaker 6: you no longer buy magazine X, Y or Z once

896
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 6: a month or a week to get your fill of

897
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 6: it there in the same way that one did, the

898
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 6: way we consume it has changed. I'm not sure that

899
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 6: yet that kind of good long form journalism has gone

900
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 6: to hell. But you know, it's easy for me to

901
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 6: say that as an old person who doesn't any longer

902
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 6: make their living from writing or editing magazines.

903
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 1: But you know, I want to know what you think

904
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 1: if there's a world in which America becomes sane again.

905
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 6: Oh, as Hemingway said, it's pretty to think. So No,

906
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 6: not really. And people have asked me that, really, since

907
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 6: you know, in all kinds of fora public and otherwise,

908
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 6: since I published Fantasy Line almost six years ago, And

909
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 6: I have the same answer that I had then, which

910
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 6: is I can see it going no further. I mean,

911
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 6: of course, and hasn't gone further in these six years

912
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 6: in some ways, but in terms of the number of

913
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 6: toxic nuts and freaks who don't believe in facts in

914
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 6: dangerous ways. We can hold the tide. We can build

915
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 6: the dams and the dykes and the whatever and hold

916
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 6: those horrible waters back. Or maybe you know, whatever, have

917
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 6: the national divorce one day and they can just live

918
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 6: in their squalid places by themselves. But I don't think

919
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 6: it's like suddenly all the citizens have picked your place,

920
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 6: are going to wake up and say, yeah, we were

921
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 6: very badly mistaken about this whole thing, the of the

922
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 6: teens and twenties, you know, I know, I just don't.

923
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 6: I don't think so. I think for all a variety

924
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 6: of reasons that I wrote about in that book and

925
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 6: have happened. Since we are what we are, I mean,

926
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 6: we can, as I say, serve to rolling over us

927
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 6: and destroying us completely. I hope still we can limit its,

928
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 6: you know, hope that our institutions and norms and majorities

929
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 6: of good saying decent Americans, which I absolutely think we have,

930
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 6: can prevent the minority of nihilists and monsters from doing

931
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 6: us in. But you know it's a struggle.

932
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:56,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true, Kurt Anderson. I hope you'll come back.

933
00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 6: Always, anytime, no moment.

934
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 7: Jesse Cannon, Mai Jong Fest, Jack Dorsey, A man who

935
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 7: if you read Nick Bilton's fantastic catching Twitter book, you

936
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 7: know has had some questionable views throughout time, but he

937
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:20,760
Speaker 7: really came out of the closet with the doozy today.

938
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: Yes, Jack Dorsey has sort of almost endorsed RFK Junior.

939
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: You may remember r f K Junior as the Yeah

940
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 1: he's Connor Roy, the eldest character from Succession. You know,

941
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 1: RFK Junior is a known anti vax or complete lunatic.

942
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: The chances of him getting more than about one percent

943
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 1: of the vote are less than zero. And for that,

944
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: and for Jack Dorsey's propping him up, just as he

945
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 1: propped up Tulca Gabber, he becomes our moment of fuck Roy.

946
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

947
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,240
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds

948
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

949
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,280
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

950
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.