1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, 2 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 2: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to 6 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: the podcast. New listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:32,279 Speaker 2: the world, it is so great to have you here 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 2: back for another episode as we, of course break down 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 2: the psychology of our twenties. Before we begin, I just 10 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 2: want to let you know that this episode is actually 11 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 2: a collab episode with my other podcast, Mantra, So if 12 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 2: you would like a more succinct, spiritually minded version of 13 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: this episode to get you started before we dive into 14 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: the psychology and the research, do check it out. I'll 15 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 2: leave a link in the description. But as for our 16 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 2: subject matter today, we are diving into a topic that 17 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 2: I think everyone has experienced in some way or another, 18 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 2: even if you don't always want to admit it, something 19 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 2: that can kind of simmer in the background for days, 20 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 2: for months, sometimes years. We are talking about grudges. I'll 21 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: be honest, and I don't feel great admitting this, but 22 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 2: I have held grudges for like a decade for many, 23 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,960 Speaker 2: many years, even after a person is long gone from 24 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 2: my life, even after I am sure they have grown 25 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 2: and they have matured, as have I this there is 26 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 2: this lingering feeling of anger and resentment that has stayed 27 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 2: and that comes up from time to time. The thing is, 28 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 2: I know for a fact I'm not alone. I know 29 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 2: for a fact that none of us are innocent of 30 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: this because holding grudges, well, it turns out, surprise, surprise, 31 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 2: is a lot more universal and human than we think, 32 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 2: and is linked some very core human behaviors. So today 33 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: I really want to ask the question, what are those 34 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 2: core behaviors? Why do we hold grudges? What purpose do 35 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: they serve? And more importantly, what do they actually secretly 36 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 2: reveal about our emotional needs, our relationships, and the story 37 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 2: of our life that we are almost telling ourselves. Because 38 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 2: underneath this resentment, underneath this kind of bitterness, there's usually 39 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,959 Speaker 2: something deeper and quite soft that we don't want to acknowledge. 40 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 2: You know, there is a boundary that was crossed, There 41 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 2: is a part of you that felt unseen. There is 42 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: a story that you haven't finished telling. And that's why 43 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 2: the grudge stays, even when it doesn't really seem to 44 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 2: serve a purpose anymore. This part of you that has 45 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 2: felt hurt or injured just really isn't ready to let 46 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: it go because they still don't feel like they have closure. 47 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 2: And when we understand there's a lack of closure as 48 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 2: a reason for our resentment and as a reason for 49 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,519 Speaker 2: holding on to grudges, we understand them a lot better 50 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: and in a more complex way that goes beyond just 51 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 2: forgiveness or black and white thinking. You know, this person 52 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 2: was the villain, this person was the victim, this person 53 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 2: was good, this person was bad. Nothing, ever, is that 54 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 2: simple when humans are involved, and this topic is included, 55 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 2: grudges are included in that matter. So whether you are 56 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,519 Speaker 2: nursing a silent grudge or you're just trying to figure 57 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 2: out how to stop feeling this kind of anger towards 58 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: someone else, how to process the pain. If you're wondering 59 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: should I like go or maybe should I hold on 60 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: a little bit longer, this episode is most certainly for 61 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: you today. Let's unpack the psychology of grudges and why 62 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 2: they seem to matter to us. Stay with us. So 63 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: let's get something very very clear. What is a grudge 64 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: really and what is it not. What's different about a 65 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: grudge compared to a fleeting moment of anger or sadness 66 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 2: is the persistence of the feeling. It is this persistent 67 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 2: feeling of resentment or malice that has resulted from a 68 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 2: past insult, a past offense that actively lingers and does 69 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 2: not go away. Psychologically, a grudge involves one core ingredient, 70 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 2: and that core ingredient is active rumination. That is that 71 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 2: for something to be a grudge, we have to be 72 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 2: repeatedly dwelling on the offense, repeatedly analyzing it from every angle, 73 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 2: re experiencing the negative emotions associated with it for it 74 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 2: to have the kind of hold that it does over us. 75 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: It's not simply I haven't forgotten. It's I haven't forgotten 76 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 2: and emotionally I am still bothered by it, and that's 77 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 2: why it feels like it matters. One study conducted by 78 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: researchers at York University in England, they theorized that the 79 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 2: act of holding a grudge is actually a cyclical process 80 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 2: that is characterized by negative emotions and intrusive thoughts that 81 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 2: continue to kind of trigger each other and impact our 82 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 2: quality of life. Participants. In the study, they conveyed that 83 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: whilst the intensity of the negative thoughts and the emotions 84 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: may dwindle over time, the underlying negativity connected to that 85 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 2: memory or event is always kind of in the background. 86 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 2: It is always ready to be summoned at any point. 87 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 2: So whilst grudges don't necessarily have to be all consuming 88 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 2: every single day, there is a negativity there that is 89 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 2: lying dormant and is very much ready to be reignited 90 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: when it feels like it's going to serve a purpose. 91 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,679 Speaker 2: So there are a few compelling reasons why our mind 92 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 2: might default to holding on rather than letting go. The 93 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: first is that some people just unfortunately have a harder 94 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 2: time releasing resentment. It's just in their personality. According to 95 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 2: research published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 96 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 2: individuals high in neuroticism, which is a personality it's very 97 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 2: similar to anxiety, they are more likely to ruminate on 98 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: negative experiences, making it harder for them to move on 99 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 2: or harder for them to reframe those events in a 100 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 2: neutral light, meaning that they have a higher collection higher 101 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 2: prevalence of grudges. A similar study also found that people 102 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 2: with an insecure attachment style are also more prone to 103 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 2: grudges and also individuals with ADHD, particularly people whose ADHD 104 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 2: presents itself through a strong sense of justice and fairness, 105 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 2: or who have rejects and sensitivity disorder RSD alongside the ADHD. 106 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 2: I was reading about this on Reddit actually the other day, 107 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 2: and it's a Reddit page for women with ADHD, and 108 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 2: there were literally hundreds of individuals talking about small slides 109 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 2: from years ago or decades ago that they just couldn't 110 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: let go of that they really wanted to, and all 111 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 2: of them said it got worse when the adh symptom 112 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 2: ADHD symptoms got worse as well, so it seemed kind 113 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 2: of connected to a larger cluster of things that were 114 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: going on. Now. This is still an area of emerging research, 115 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 2: but it could be one part of the explanation for 116 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 2: you if you feel like, compared to friends compared to relatives, 117 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 2: grudges just sit heavier with you compared to them. On 118 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 2: a more general level, I think the reason that humans 119 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 2: in general seem hardwired towards remembering over forgetting is because 120 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 2: our memory and our bil to recall specific events, it's 121 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 2: not particularly honest or objective. It is highly selective. It 122 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 2: is a strategically biased filter. We remember only what emotionally 123 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 2: resonates with us, but we of course also only remember 124 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 2: it from our perspective and through the lens with which 125 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 2: we originally viewed or experiencing something happening, So there's no 126 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 2: way to tell what the objective truth is. Your opinion 127 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 2: is always going to be involved. We also tend to 128 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 2: remember pain and negative experiences more vividly and more persistently 129 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 2: than ones that are positive or ones that involve pleasure. 130 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 2: So this is known in psychology, specifically in cognitive psychology, 131 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 2: as a negativity bias. Almost all of us have this 132 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: pessimistic optimistic Whatever you are, there is a part of you, 133 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:58,559 Speaker 2: from an evolutionary standpoint, that we'll always prefer to remember 134 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,479 Speaker 2: negative things of positive things. Think about it this way. 135 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 2: It was much more important for you as an ancient 136 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 2: human to know where the poisonous snake lived or to 137 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: know where the predator alerked, rather than to know where 138 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 2: the berries grew. Yes, the barriers are nice and they're lovely, 139 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: but the snake and the predator, they are the thing 140 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 2: that is really going to cost you. This was really 141 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 2: crucial for our survival. Our ancestors who quickly learned from 142 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: negative encounters were more likely to live another day. Of course, 143 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 2: environmental information isn't the only thing that's important. Social information 144 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 2: is also really valuable to us. So the dangers that 145 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 2: may have been present back back in ancient times are 146 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 2: present in a new form. They're more present socially and 147 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 2: through what we perceive as social threats. So if someone 148 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 2: wrongs us, if someone does something that really hurts us, 149 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 2: that feels not just painful but threatening, and so it 150 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 2: gets tagged in our memory storage system as a high priority. 151 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 2: Because it has been tagged that way, it is encoded 152 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 2: with a greater emotional intensity, It triggers stronger psychological response, 153 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 2: and is therefore, in the future more easily recalled, especially 154 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 2: when we encounter similar situations, or we encounter similar people, 155 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 2: or even when we just encounter internal triggers beyond just 156 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 2: you know, memory and the strangeness of our memory systems. 157 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 2: As humans, holding a grudge can feel like a vital 158 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 2: act of self protection. If someone hurt you deeply in 159 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 2: the past, your mind might cling to that resentment as 160 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: a really powerful psychological shield, but also as an emotional 161 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 2: barrier that is designed to prevent future pain. It's often 162 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 2: this very deceptive internal declaration that says, if I can 163 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 2: tell you to be angry, it means that this isn't 164 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 2: gonna happen again, because I will be on God and 165 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 2: I will know to be prepared for it. Clinging to 166 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 2: the grudge kind of ensures that you don't forget the 167 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 2: bitter lesson that you learn from the injustice, and as 168 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 2: a result, you continue to be hyper aware of future 169 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 2: potential threats. So you save yourself. You stop yourself from 170 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 2: being naive, you stop yourself from trusting too easily, and 171 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 2: therefore you stop yourself from experiencing pain. It's actually quite 172 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 2: sad when you think about it. You know, one bad egg, 173 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: one bad fruit. I think, what's the saying one bad 174 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 2: bad fruit spoils the whole bunch. One bad human who 175 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: does something terrible might make you hypervigilant for the rest 176 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 2: of your life. For some I think it also again 177 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 2: helps you reinforce a necessary boundary. The fact that the 178 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 2: grudge is still there means that you'll never let this 179 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,079 Speaker 2: person back into your life because you have a constant 180 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 2: reminder of how they made you. This can be a 181 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 2: very genuinely adaptive behavior in the case of harmful or 182 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 2: abusive relationships where you know, maintaining no contact is crucial 183 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 2: for safety. However, this same mechanism can become maladaptive when 184 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 2: it kind of keeps everyone out, when it stops you 185 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 2: from letting there be new opportunities for genuine connection, for empathy, 186 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 2: for positive healing experiences with people who aren't going to 187 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 2: hurt you. Well, you know, the intention is undeniably perhaps 188 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 2: a good one, and it is protective. I think the 189 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 2: long term effect can be profoundly self isolating. You know, 190 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 2: we do possess a very primal need for justice. The 191 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: thing that really contributes to this is what we know 192 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 2: is the just world hypothesis. Basically, beyond just wanting to 193 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 2: protect ourselves, we all kind of want to believe deep 194 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: down that the world is fundamentally fair and that people 195 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 2: generally they get what they deserve. If they do bad things, 196 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 2: bad things will come back to them. If they're good 197 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 2: and kind, the world will be good and kind to them. 198 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 2: When a profound or seemingly arbitrary injustice happens to us, 199 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 2: when someone does something bad and they get away with it, 200 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 2: it really shatters this comforting illusion, and that is what 201 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: causes us to feel even worse and to perhaps question 202 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 2: life in a way that's kind of kind of distressing. 203 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 2: You know, if someone does something bad to you and 204 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 2: they get away with it, Suddenly you're thinking, what's the 205 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 2: point of me being good? If they get to be 206 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 2: awful and still get a good life. Why am I 207 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 2: trying so hard to be good? Wouldn't it be easier 208 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 2: to just not care about other people? Wouldn't it be 209 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 2: easier to just not be good? Obviously we don't all 210 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: want to think that way, So holding a grudge can 211 00:13:55,080 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 2: be kind of a subconscious antidote to that discomfort me 212 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:05,479 Speaker 2: holding a grudge me not forgetting that is their punishment. 213 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 2: That means that karma has worked, because there is this 214 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 2: like lingering thought that I have about them that is 215 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 2: sitting over their head. We feel like the world is 216 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 2: very again because somewhere in your brain they haven't gotten 217 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 2: away with it. So, in some ways, holding a grudge 218 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 2: can be a very desperate, if ultimately futile, attempt to 219 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 2: return the world to how you think it should operate 220 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 2: and how you know we want it to operate. It 221 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 2: returns a very fragile sense of internal order. I think 222 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 2: potentially the most deceptive reason And one of the final 223 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 2: reasons we hold onto grudges comes from the fact that 224 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 2: it provides a sense of control. And that's where all 225 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 2: these explanations are kind of leading. When an injustice occurs 226 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 2: and we feel utterly vulnerable, that's a very very shaky feeling, 227 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 2: it's a very uncomfortable feeling, and it can make us 228 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 2: really again ask some very big questions of the world. 229 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: How could this happen? You know? How does this person 230 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: get to hurt me and get away with it? How 231 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 2: was this allowed to occur? Do I really have any 232 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 2: sense of control? You know? The answer is you probably don't. 233 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 2: But if you cling to the resentment, and you cling 234 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 2: to the grudge again, it reinforces that perhaps you can 235 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 2: do something about it. It's also the same reason why 236 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 2: we may replay over and over again hypothetical confrontations or 237 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 2: pretend arguments that you might have with this person. These illusions, 238 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 2: these imaginations provide once again a powerful but illusory belief 239 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: that we are still dictating this narrative. But here's the 240 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 2: stark and kind of undeniable reality. We may feel like 241 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 2: we're in control with the grudge. We may feel like 242 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 2: it's protecting us. We may feel like it's justice, but 243 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 2: in reality, a grudge is always going to harm us 244 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: far more and far more consistently than it's going to 245 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 2: harm the original target. It sucks. But the fact is 246 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 2: is that the true pain of resentment is not one 247 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 2: that someone else can feel. It is one that we 248 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 2: are going to feel the full force of ourselves. And 249 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 2: so with that in mind, there has to be a 250 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 2: healthier approach to this. Knowing all the reasons that we 251 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 2: hold a grudge, despite all those reasons, there has to 252 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 2: be something that we can do about it. Surely, Well, 253 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 2: that's exactly what we're going to talk about. We're also 254 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 2: going to talk about again how the resentment and the 255 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 2: pain of a grudge does actually physically harm us and 256 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 2: why that's something to be aware of when you find 257 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: yourselves doing after this shortbreak. Okay, so the question that 258 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 2: we have for this part of the show is how 259 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 2: did grudges kind of linger in our bodies in invisible 260 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 2: but still painful ways. I saw this interview with none 261 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 2: other than Miley Cyrus the other day, super random. You 262 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 2: probably didn't think that her name was gonna show up 263 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 2: in this episode, but here we are. Anyways, Miley Cyrus. 264 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 2: She's doing this interview and she's talking about how she 265 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 2: has all this rage, and she had all this resentment, 266 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: and she had all these grudges towards people who had 267 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 2: wronged her, and she didn't let herself get angry about it. 268 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,239 Speaker 2: She just let them stew. And after a while, she 269 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 2: was noticing that there was all this pain showing up 270 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: in her body, pain that she didn't understand for years. 271 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 2: And she realized that that pain was coming from the 272 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 2: fact that she never let herself feel the full emotion 273 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 2: behind her resentment. She wasn't able to let it go 274 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 2: because she hadn't had that release. This is a great 275 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 2: example of what a grudge can do. Now, obviously a 276 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 2: celebrity experience is one thing, but she is a real 277 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 2: person and how she explained it really resonated with me 278 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 2: because so many people feel this way but can't express it. 279 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 2: She had the platform to be able to explain what 280 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 2: she was experiencing and what she's experiencing. It's called samatization, 281 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 2: and it's a term that has been around for over 282 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 2: one hundred years, and it describes how our body actually harbors, 283 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 2: feels and is pained by emotions we don't release, i e. 284 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 2: A grudge I backed in what we're talking about today. 285 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 2: There was a paper written about this a few decades back, 286 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 2: actually in the late nineties, so a little bit dated now, 287 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 2: but still relevant, and it talks about this exact, exact 288 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 2: experience and all these instances where medical professionals will encounter 289 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 2: someone who has chronic pain, who is suffering, and they'll 290 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 2: do all the blood work, they'll look at all the 291 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 2: obvious biological signs of stress and of pain, and there 292 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 2: aren't any There is no reasonable explanation for it. But 293 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 2: then this person goes to therapy. This person starts talking 294 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 2: about their rage, starts talking about their resentments, starts talking 295 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 2: about the pain of their past, and their physical condition improves. 296 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 2: And these cases have always kind of shocked doctors because 297 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 2: they're like, what are you talking about, Like, surely you 298 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 2: must be taking some kind of medication, surely you must 299 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: do it, be doing it, must be exercising differently, something 300 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 2: else must be happening. But the thing is is that 301 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 2: they were looking at chronic pain as purely a physical thing, 302 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 2: when at times it can be an emotional thing. When 303 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 2: you hold onto a grudge, you constantly replay an offense 304 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 2: and all that rage, all that anger, all that fear 305 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 2: and frustration and sadness, it comes rushing back to your body, 306 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 2: and so your body is going to respond as if 307 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 2: you are in a perpetual, ongoing state of threat. There 308 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: is this very interesting idea that your body actually can't 309 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 2: tell the difference between its imagination and what's happening in 310 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,479 Speaker 2: real time, or an idea or a vision that you 311 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 2: can cock for it, and a real offense. And so 312 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 2: just thinking about a previous grudge or a previous thing 313 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 2: that happened to you that hurt you is equally as 314 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 2: triggering as that thing happening to you right now. Because 315 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 2: this relentlessly activates your fight or flight system, a very 316 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 2: ancient stress response. You start to really feel it in 317 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: your body. I know, when I think back to you know, 318 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 2: a time that I was hurt, I feel it like 319 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: in the center of my chest. I feel it like 320 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 2: a balloon that it's getting so big in like my 321 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 2: chest cavity that I can't burst it, but it won't 322 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 2: go away, like it's a tightness. It's every single one 323 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 2: of us can describe this pain. If you think about 324 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 2: someone who has harmed you in the past, you feel 325 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 2: a sudden tightness in your jaw, You feel adrenaline, You 326 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 2: feel this rising in your chest, like there are physical 327 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,239 Speaker 2: reactions to things that we think only exists on an 328 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: emotional plane. You know, the phrase holding onto anger is 329 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 2: like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. 330 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 2: This is where it is incredibly relevant. In essence, carrying 331 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: a grudge is keeping your body in a state of 332 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,479 Speaker 2: stress that it's only meant to be in temporarily, and 333 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 2: we continue to keep it in that state for years. 334 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 2: You think that by holding the memory of this past defense, 335 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 2: you're hurting someone else, or you're making sure they're not 336 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 2: getting away with it, but they actually don't know how 337 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 2: you're feeling, like you are not actually inflicting any kind 338 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 2: of pain or suffering on them because they don't know 339 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,719 Speaker 2: You're the only person who was suffering is you. It's 340 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 2: experienced solely by you, and beyond these physical impacts, you know, 341 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 2: grudges also act as invisible emotional shackles because they involve 342 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 2: such a great deal of rumination. This anchors us to 343 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,479 Speaker 2: a painful past, and it actually affects our capacity to 344 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 2: connect with new people. In one study published in twenty 345 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 2: twenty one research conducted very in depth interviews with dozens 346 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 2: of people about the grudges they held and who they 347 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 2: felt had harmed them in the past, and they found 348 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 2: that almost all of them had seen some lingering effect 349 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 2: of this feeling on their current relationships, on their friendships, 350 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 2: on their quality of life, and on how much they 351 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 2: chose or could trust other people. Many of them also 352 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 2: spoke about being trapped by their grudge. This emotional stuckness 353 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 2: is often caused by this lack of resolution. You know, 354 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 2: if a grievance is never communicated, or if an apology 355 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 2: is never delivered, or if it feels unsatisfactory, the wound 356 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 2: remains wide open. As humans, we have such weird little 357 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 2: creatures in that we hate stories that don't have an ending. 358 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: We just we can't deal with it. That's why it's 359 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 2: a whole genre of like uncomfortable TV and uncomfortable movies, 360 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 2: is movies that don't have endings because it just feels 361 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 2: so like weird to us, very naturally weird. Holding a 362 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 2: grudge is a story that has not ended. That is 363 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 2: why it feels so emotionally painful, even if they have died, 364 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 2: even if we haven't seen them in years. That doesn't 365 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 2: matter because to us the wound it feels like it 366 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 2: happened yesterday. That's what means we are unable to move on. 367 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 2: Often when we experience these emotional reactions of suddenly being 368 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 2: angry ten years later, suddenly feeling a sense or a 369 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 2: desire for revenge months after the fact, when we feel that, 370 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 2: we can be like, oh my god, I'm so immature. 371 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 2: Why can't I just like let this go? Like what's 372 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 2: wrong with me? Am I a bad person? That's not 373 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 2: the right way to think about it. This is actually 374 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 2: a very valid and natural human response. It is a 375 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 2: signal that a boundary has been crossed, that an injustice 376 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 2: has occurred. It's this thing though that it's not your fault, 377 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,959 Speaker 2: but now it has become your responsibility, and how you 378 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 2: deal with it from here on out actually has nothing 379 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 2: to do with the other person and everything to do 380 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 2: with you and how you want to continue living your life. 381 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 2: Of course, this is absolutely easier said than done, especially 382 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 2: if we haven't been taught how to do this, especially 383 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 2: if there's unprocessed pain, especially if you think there is 384 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 2: an ongoing threat. But we do have to learn how 385 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 2: to shift this narrative from a grudge being about another 386 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: person to being about ourselves, and we have to shift 387 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: our ability to deal with the grudge from being like 388 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 2: this person needs to take responsibility, this person needs to 389 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 2: feel pain to I need to allow myself to feel peace, 390 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 2: and I actually owe it to myself to move beyond 391 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 2: this in spite of them. We can start by firstly, 392 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 2: like we've spoken about before, letting ourselves be angry. Anger 393 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 2: and rage have been painted as such impolite and dirty 394 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 2: emotions like there are a sign you can't emotionally regulate. Regulate, 395 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 2: and they are a sign that you know you are 396 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 2: just unbridled and you're gonna go off at any given point. 397 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 2: Actually letting yourself feel angry is a sign of emotional regulation. 398 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 2: Letting yourself just be upset in a safe way is 399 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 2: how you stop an emotion from making its home inside 400 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 2: of you and staying for decades. I think, especially for women, 401 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 2: I wish we would just let ourselves get fucking pissed 402 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 2: every now and again and not try and silence what 403 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 2: that might mean, and not try and silence ourselves because 404 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 2: we think it makes us a bad or unhinged person. 405 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 2: There are plenty of ways to express anger in a 406 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 2: way that is very productive, very healthy, and very safe. Firstly, 407 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 2: you can just scream it out. I remember when I 408 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 2: was at university, there was this creek behind some of 409 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 2: the old dorm rooms, like at my college on my campus, 410 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 2: and at night, like I have this distinct memory of 411 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 2: me and my friends going down there, and I think 412 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 2: one of like some guy I had just broken up 413 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 2: with one of my friends, and we someone was dealing 414 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 2: with some terrible man and some terrible teacher, whatever it was. 415 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 2: We just all like screamed. We just like screamed. I 416 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 2: hope there was no one like walking around there who 417 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 2: thought that we were distressed, but we were, like we 418 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 2: just got to let it out. And it was definitely 419 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 2: like an angry scream, not a fearful screen, and it 420 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,239 Speaker 2: was euphoric. It felt amazing, like it felt like we 421 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 2: were high boxing classes as well. Such a good outlet. 422 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 2: Manual labor. If your neighbor needs some yard work done, 423 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 2: that is your opportunity. Chopping wood, raking leaves just like 424 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 2: gives those feelings somewhere to go. Some therapists also recommend 425 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 2: like full body shaking, where you just let your body 426 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 2: go loose and you dance wildly. They say that's a 427 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 2: very effective strategy, belting out angry songs in your car, 428 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 2: ripping up cardboards, smashing ice, rage rooms. You gotta find 429 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: your outlet. You have to get over this hurdle of 430 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 2: not letting yourself feel the emotion before you can start 431 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 2: to consider more complex pursuits like forgiveness, like moving forward, 432 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,719 Speaker 2: like forgetting, because you can never forgive if the emotion 433 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 2: isn't ready to be let go or hasn't been released. 434 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 2: Let's talk about forgiveness now. I feel like I've been 435 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 2: dancing around this topic because I know it's somewhat controversial. 436 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 2: I said this in our episode over on Mantra, but 437 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 2: there is still no consensus within our society about whether 438 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 2: it's better to hold on forever, forgive but not forget, 439 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 2: forgive and forget, like no one really knows which camp 440 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,479 Speaker 2: is best. Personally, though I've talked about this before, I 441 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 2: think that forgiveness is a form of self care, even 442 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 2: if it's not for everyone. For me, I see it 443 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 2: as a way to address what is hurting me or 444 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 2: what is hurting you, without necessarily needing the other person 445 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 2: to be involved, not even needing to know that you 446 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 2: have forgiven them. Psychologically, you know forgiveness is a deliberate 447 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 2: decision to release resentment, to release anger, to release the 448 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 2: desire for retribution towards someone else for your own sake, 449 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 2: not for their sake, because you understand that the burden 450 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 2: I guess for not forgiving is going to be greater. 451 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 2: It's an internal shift from I think, an emotional state 452 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 2: that is dominated by punitive emotions like anger and hatred 453 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 2: and revenge, to one characterized by more positive or at 454 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 2: least neutral emotions like peace, the acceptance of reality, and 455 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 2: even in some cases like compassion. Now, let's get very 456 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 2: crystal clear that forgiveness is not condoning the offense. It 457 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 2: is not excusing the person's actions. It's not erasing the 458 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 2: memory of the discomfort that they caused. There is a 459 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 2: big difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. Right, forgiveness is internal, 460 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 2: reconciliation is external. You can totally forgive someone without ever 461 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 2: having to interact with them again. In the cases of abuse, 462 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 2: repeated betrayal, ongoing harm, forgiveness is perhaps a possible act. 463 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 2: Reconciliation will maybe never be a possible act. That's the 464 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 2: real difference here because your primary responsibility is always going 465 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 2: to be your own safety and your own well being 466 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 2: and establishing healthy boundaries. It doesn't mean that what happened 467 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 2: was okay, and it absolutely doesn't mean that you have 468 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,719 Speaker 2: to be friends with this person. It just means that 469 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 2: you are allowing yourself to be okay with the fact 470 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 2: that it did happen, and you're releasing the burden of 471 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 2: the grudge. Forgiveness also cannot be forced if you're not ready, 472 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 2: or if the act of trying to forgive actually causes 473 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 2: more distress, It's okay to wait or to focus on 474 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 2: other things or other coping strategies. First, I think it's 475 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 2: irresponsible for someone to approach someone else's pain by saying 476 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 2: there is a timeline for forgiveness and you are behind 477 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 2: on that timeline. When that person has an experience what 478 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: you've been through. You may never forgive it all, and 479 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 2: that's okay. But it is a gift to yourself if 480 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 2: it's one that you feel you're capable of delivering, And 481 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 2: I hope you realize that if the time is ever 482 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 2: right for you, if you ever want to forgive the 483 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 2: other person, they're not going to benefit from that this 484 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: isn't a gift for them, like again, it's a gift 485 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 2: for you. There is this researcher, his name is Everett Worthington. 486 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 2: He's a leading expert in forgiveness, and he really emphasizes 487 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 2: that the essence of this is about finding peace from 488 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 2: the pain of the past, not forgetting that it didn't 489 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 2: happen or not pretending that it didn't happen. And research 490 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 2: findings will at least tell you it does improve how 491 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 2: you're feeling and it can lessen the emotional pain. For example, 492 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 2: a twenty twenty three study looking into the effectiveness of 493 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 2: an intervention to promote forgiveness randomly assigned four five hundred 494 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 2: participants to either engage in exercises of rewriting their own 495 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 2: story from their perspective, or just to all out try 496 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 2: and forgive someone else. And what they found was that 497 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 2: the easiest way towards forgiveness is recognizing the role that 498 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 2: you did not play in this happening and recognizing that 499 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 2: the story was written by someone else and rewriting it 500 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 2: or rewriting the ending in a way that feels better 501 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 2: for you. And research will constantly say, like when we 502 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 2: do it, this way when we focus on I don't 503 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 2: know whether there was a lesson in that, whether there 504 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 2: was meaning for us when we focus on the fact 505 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 2: that we had no responsibility in it. This is significantly 506 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 2: linked to lower levels of anger, lower depressive symptoms, lower 507 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 2: levels of anxiety, improvements to sleep, less stress, the sense 508 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 2: of feeling lighter, all things that I think that we 509 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 2: can advocate and that we want for ourselves. It also 510 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 2: just frees up so much mental space to focus on 511 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 2: other things, and it means that actually the other person 512 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 2: hasn't won. They haven't one by being able to sit 513 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 2: in your brain for longer than they deserve, and to 514 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 2: being able to make a home in your mind, you 515 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,719 Speaker 2: have won because they have done this terrible thing. You 516 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 2: have accepted that you can never understand why they did that, 517 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,239 Speaker 2: and yet you have still chosen to choose peace, and 518 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 2: that means you have one on a whole other dimension 519 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 2: at least. I guess that's kind of how I see it. 520 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 2: So I think to give you a quick guide to 521 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 2: how we actually do this, I think there will be 522 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 2: good days, there will be bad days. First, the most 523 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 2: foundational step isn't a force forgiveness. It's just to acknowledge 524 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 2: that something happened, and it's to acknowledge that it was 525 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 2: unfair and that you do have anger towards it, and 526 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 2: just consciously kind of respect that that anger needs somewhere 527 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 2: to go and that is completely valid. Next, be honest 528 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 2: with yourself when no one is watching, when no one 529 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 2: is around you. Do you feel like this emotion is 530 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 2: actually making you feel better? Or is it making you 531 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 2: feel worse? Do you feel like the energy you're pouring 532 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 2: into holding this grudge is worthwhile? Is it consuming you 533 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 2: or is there a part of you that does maybe 534 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 2: want to live without it. Maybe part of that is 535 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 2: also recognizing what the grudge has rubbed from you already. 536 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 2: Recognizing this personal cost can also really help motivate you 537 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 2: to find on an approach that works. When we then 538 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 2: start to ask ourselves, what does this grudge represent? Is 539 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 2: where we really have those breakthroughs? You know, I've noticed 540 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 2: that often a grudge isn't about the event itself, but 541 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 2: it's about what it symbolizes. Someone rejects you, you hold 542 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 2: a grudge against them, but it's not because they rejected you. 543 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 2: It's because perhaps it touches on a deeper story you're 544 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 2: telling yourself about your worth, whether you deserve love. Maybe 545 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 2: someone betrays you, and yes, that sucks, But the pain 546 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 2: really comes from the fact that you could see it coming. 547 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 2: And maybe that means that you're not able to protect 548 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 2: yourself and that you don't feel safe. Maybe someone bullied 549 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 2: you as a child and you couldn't let it go. 550 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 2: It's not really about them. It's about the fact that 551 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 2: maybe when you were younger, you didn't feel protected and 552 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 2: you didn't feel like you could help yourself. You know, 553 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,280 Speaker 2: there's always something beneath the surface. What is the story 554 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 2: that this grudge is keeping alive about who you are, 555 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 2: who you are as a person, or who you have been. 556 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 2: And here's a layer of forgiveness we often overlook, but 557 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,280 Speaker 2: this is where it's absolutely vital. We need to also 558 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 2: in some ways forgive ourselves. When we hold grudges against others, 559 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,720 Speaker 2: we frequently, I think, also harbor a silent, corrosive grudge 560 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 2: against ourselves. We might replay our own I guess role 561 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:49,919 Speaker 2: in the past hurt even though we don't have a role. 562 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 2: We might ask very agonizing questions like, oh, how did 563 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 2: I let myself get treated like that? Why didn't I 564 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,760 Speaker 2: speak up? Why did I trust them when, in fact, 565 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 2: like this, self condemnation has no place here. Like you 566 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:08,240 Speaker 2: were not weak, you were not foolish. This criticism towards 567 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 2: yourself is getting you stuck, not just within the grudge, 568 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,800 Speaker 2: but it's getting you stuck in a place of self 569 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 2: blame that is not helpful. Forgiveness towards someone else requires 570 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 2: an act of kindness and understanding towards ourselves and recognizing 571 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 2: that you did the best you could with the knowledge 572 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 2: and the emotional resources that you had at the time. Finally, 573 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 2: and this might sound controversial, I know I'm probably gonna 574 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 2: get pushed back, but ask yourself if the roles were reversed, 575 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 2: if this was me, would I want forgiveness? Would I 576 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 2: want someone to understand the reasons or decisions or just 577 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 2: plain stupidity that drove someone to do this thing? If 578 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 2: I had done this, would I want someone to forgive me? 579 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,919 Speaker 2: If the answer is yes, the easiest answer we can get, 580 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 2: then I think that acknowledgment can make it easier for 581 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 2: you to have compassion for that other person, but also 582 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 2: compassion for yourself. If the answer is no, that's sometimes 583 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 2: just as liberating because it reconfirms that you could never 584 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 2: be like them. You could never stoop that low because 585 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 2: you are moral and kind and responsible and good, and 586 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 2: because you possess those traits and they don't, you have one. 587 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 2: You are officially the better person, full stop. And so 588 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,720 Speaker 2: you forgiving them and choosing to move on, that's something 589 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 2: that they are now indebted to you for. You're the 590 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 2: bigger person, the braver person. You are the winner. And 591 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 2: you know what, I get that that sounds kind of egotistical, 592 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 2: but who cares. I think, whatever it takes to release 593 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 2: the emotional burden, you must do it. Grudges, yes, they 594 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 2: cost us. They're also universal, and there's something that we 595 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 2: can't always control. There is some deep ancient psychology that 596 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 2: wants to keep you trapped in a bad thought, in 597 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 2: a boat memory, in a bad time. But you also 598 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 2: have agency, and you have power to rethink whether that 599 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 2: is beneficial to you. Rethink, Hey, is this actually helping 600 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 2: me or harming me? And making that decision. You know, 601 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 2: as much as I have given you advice and I 602 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,280 Speaker 2: have opinions, maybe you don't want to forgive someone. Maybe 603 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 2: the anger fuels you, maybe it feels nice. Maybe you 604 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 2: aren't dealing with the consequences of this, like other people are, 605 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 2: and if that's the case, that's entirely okay. I think 606 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 2: this is such an intimate and personal kind of conversation 607 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 2: because it is going to differ for everyone. But if 608 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,280 Speaker 2: a grudge is costing you anything, I think it's important 609 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 2: to reevaluate whether that's something you want to give up 610 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 2: and whether you're willing to pay your dues to the 611 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 2: grudge or it's time to let it go. So I 612 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 2: hope this has been a nice introduction into how you 613 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 2: can do that, into the psychology behind it. I feel you, 614 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 2: I get you. There are grudges that I am still 615 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 2: trying to work through. I don't know. I was thinking 616 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 2: about this the other day. Like when I was like seven, 617 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 2: there was like this group of girls who bullied me 618 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 2: as a kid, and I saw one of them the 619 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 2: other day and I was immediately angry, and I was like, 620 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 2: what the heck? Like that was two decades ago. This 621 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 2: person has changed a lot, But grudges are irrational. So 622 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 2: as much as I'm sitting here preaching, there is still 623 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 2: stuff I need to work on. And so hopefully you 624 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 2: understand that this advice is also coming from someone who 625 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 2: is imperfect and is struggling with this just as much 626 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 2: as you are, But I hope we were able to 627 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 2: kind of learn something together. You can also share this 628 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,320 Speaker 2: episode with someone else if you feel like it's something 629 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 2: they may need to hear. Share it to your Instagram. 630 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 2: If you want to give someone a silent message, then 631 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 2: maybe you're not over something. Just kidding that's unhealthy. Maybe 632 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 2: you don't do that, and make sure you leave us 633 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,320 Speaker 2: a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you're listening. 634 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,959 Speaker 2: It really does help the show to grow to reach 635 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 2: new people. Hopefully this episode will reach more people who 636 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 2: need to hear it. Maybe not, maybe it just sticks 637 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 2: with us. But if you have made it this far, 638 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 2: leave a little emoji down below of what a grudge 639 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 2: kind of represents to you, what it feels like in 640 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 2: your body, what it feels like in your mind. What's 641 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 2: a visual way that you can kind of deliver that 642 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,240 Speaker 2: or show that feeling. I also want to thank Elizabeth Colbert, 643 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 2: our researcher, for her assistance on this episode. And until 644 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 2: next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself, 645 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 2: and we will talk very very soon,