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Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist friends and neighbors. Tonight's classic episode may

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Speaker 1: not be appropriate for all listeners. The headline simply put,

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Speaker 1: could a group of serial murderers be kidnapping and drowning

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Speaker 1: young men across the entirety of the United States?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I remembering like pools were involved in this one.

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Speaker 2: Bodies of water, for sure, went the pools. There weren't pools.

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Speaker 3: I think it's more lakes rivers.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I just remember I remember a graffiti situation, like

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Speaker 2: where they were tagging this smiley face and from my mind,

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Speaker 2: I'm picturing one in like a drained pool that I

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Speaker 2: could be maybe it was like a canal or something.

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Speaker 2: I think it was a canal.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we kept talking about this specific episode while we

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Speaker 3: were making that one.

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Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. There are parallels. And this is

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Speaker 2: not to be confused with The Happy Face Killer, a

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Speaker 2: series that both Ben and I worked on, which is

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Speaker 2: also good and now a TV show weirdly on Lincoln

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Speaker 2: Peacock or something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is instead, and I appreciate that point because

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Speaker 1: it's easy to confuse the two. This is the Smiley

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Speaker 1: Face Murder conspiracy. The idea that these what appear to

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Speaker 1: be accidental drownings do perhaps to implement weather, simple bad luck,

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Speaker 1: or perhaps intoxication, or instead the result of an active

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Speaker 1: group of straight up maniacs. And for the people who

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Speaker 1: believe in this theory, retired detectives among them. The giveaway

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Speaker 1: is that there is always some kind of trademark graffiti

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Speaker 1: of a smiley face. And I don't know, man, this

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Speaker 1: is deep stuff.

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Speaker 2: And guys, I'm having a hard time remembering how this

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Speaker 2: one results. I feel like there was a twist we'll

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Speaker 2: find out shortly. Here we go.

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Speaker 4: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 4: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 4: learn this stuff they don't want.

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Speaker 2: You to know.

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Speaker 4: A production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my.

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Speaker 2: Name is Noman. They call me Ben.

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Speaker 1: We are joined as always with our super producer Paul.

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Speaker 1: Mission control decands, most importantly, you are you. You are here,

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Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to start out with something very very honest,

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Speaker 1: and it's one of the great commonalities.

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Speaker 2: Of our species is this.

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Speaker 1: People die, whether due to accident, injury, disease, or crime.

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Speaker 1: The unexpected loss of a loved one is one of

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Speaker 1: the most harrowing events in human experience. It doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: who you are, prince, a popper. We love people, and

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Speaker 1: at some point they or we are gone. And when

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Speaker 1: people are struggling in the wake of these these terrible,

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Speaker 1: indescribable tragedies, we often find ourselves desperately searching for answers.

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Speaker 1: You know, questions haunt us. Was there something I could

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Speaker 1: have done differently? We might ask, Or out of all

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Speaker 1: of the billions of people in the world, why was

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Speaker 1: my child, my partner, my parent, or my friend the

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Speaker 1: one to pass away? And this intense pain worsens when

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Speaker 1: survivors are left with missing pieces to their stories. You know,

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Speaker 1: we always hear about We always hear about legal proceedings

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Speaker 1: maybe for a disappearance or a crime or murder, that

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Speaker 1: go on for years or decades after the event. And

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Speaker 1: in many ways it's driven by surviving family members or

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Speaker 1: loved ones, not because they believe this will somehow, you know,

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Speaker 1: bring someone back. It's because the experience of closure is

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Speaker 1: so much better than the experience of wondering what happened

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Speaker 1: to a child, or a spouse or a loved one.

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Speaker 1: But then there's this other chilling situation, which is, what

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Speaker 1: do you do when authorities have ruled the death of

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Speaker 1: a loved one accidental, but you feel they got it wrong.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've seen examples of that, and we know

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Speaker 1: at least we can't speak for every country, but we

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Speaker 1: know that here in the US there is a clear

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Speaker 1: and systemic problem with things being with causes of death

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Speaker 1: being misidentified right or with some kind of malfunction in

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Speaker 1: the justice system leading to the wrong person being convicted

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Speaker 1: of a crime. The real criminal walks away and they

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Speaker 1: get caught, you know, four assaults, five murders later.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, we also know there are real problems within

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Speaker 3: institutions where sometimes in This is certainly not true of

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Speaker 3: all cases, and this is certainly not speaking ill of

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Speaker 3: any individual out there who may be listening or who

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Speaker 3: is working in any of these fields. But sometimes it

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Speaker 3: is more beneficial to have a let's say, a case

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Speaker 3: be classified one way rather than the other. That will

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Speaker 3: prevent a major investigation from occurring, because.

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Speaker 2: As far as the authorities are concerned, that closes the

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Speaker 2: book on it. They can devote resources elsewhere and we

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Speaker 2: all know that law enforcement agencies are often quite strapped

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Speaker 2: for resources, and every agency is every agent.

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Speaker 3: We all human beings out here are trying to do

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Speaker 3: the best we can with what we have, right, I mean,

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Speaker 3: I think that speaks to most of us, especially you listening,

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Speaker 3: because you're awesome, who are Yeah? Well, I mean, it's

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Speaker 3: just the nature of large systems like that. Sometimes you

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Speaker 3: have to you have to at least attempt to make

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Speaker 3: it function at its highest level. And to do that,

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Speaker 3: you have to pick and choose, basically what priorities.

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Speaker 2: And by its very nature, I'm not saying it's inherently callous,

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Speaker 2: but it has to take a little bit more of

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Speaker 2: a clinical approach to these things then would be taken

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Speaker 2: on the family side, which is obviously a much more

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Speaker 2: personal and emotional approach to this idea of closure. So

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Speaker 2: while the book might be closed on a case as

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Speaker 2: far as law enforcement is concerned, that would be far

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Speaker 2: from the case if a family member thinks they got

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Speaker 2: something a little off.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And all of this doesn't change the way those

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Speaker 3: family members or those loved ones feel in what they believe.

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Speaker 3: None of this, none of the realities change the way

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Speaker 3: that experience at that level.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: We can all think of specific cases where the where

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Speaker 1: in law enforcement, municipal, maybe even on federal level, said Okay,

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Speaker 1: we've figured out what happened is what happened, and the

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Speaker 1: family says, no, this is not a satisfactory explanation. As

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Speaker 1: a matter of fact, in the past, we've covered many

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Speaker 1: examples of this, often with journalists who found something they

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Speaker 1: don't want you to know and then later somehow died

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Speaker 1: and before we go on. You know, this reminds me.

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Speaker 1: I recently rewatched some clips of one of your favorite shows, Matt,

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Speaker 1: The Wire.

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Speaker 2: I believe it is. That is everybody's favorite show, right.

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Speaker 1: One of the best shows. Then right, backstory, Matt introduced

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Speaker 1: me to The Wire.

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Speaker 3: So we would not have Luther if we didn't have

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Speaker 3: The Wire. Okay, that's also true, that's all.

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Speaker 2: That's all. We also wouldn't have Macavity in the latest

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Speaker 2: iteration of Cats, which is a thing of monstrosity and beauty,

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Speaker 2: and then everyone should experience it for themselves, just putting

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Speaker 2: that out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw it too, it and I think it

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Speaker 1: is the true spiritual successor to the Wire.

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Speaker 2: It's basically the last season of The Wire. Stringer Bell

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Speaker 2: pirouetting around in a weird anthropomorphic CGI cat suit with

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Speaker 2: ripped abs yep, yep.

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Speaker 1: In the before the Cat season of The Wire, you

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Speaker 1: guys will recall there was a there was an ongoing

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Speaker 1: plot and I think maybe season four.

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Speaker 2: Slight spoiler alert, you mean with the vacance where there

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Speaker 2: were bodies that were just kind of disappearing, and I

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Speaker 2: think they're the newspaper essentially created a narrative of their

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Speaker 2: own to explain this.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, full spoiler alert. Now McNulty is.

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Speaker 5: Involved using bodies, yeah, yeah, yeah, and is creating essentially

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Speaker 5: or or working with this narrative, right, the idea of

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Speaker 5: creating a sort of false narrative to get some more

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Speaker 5: resources put into solving some of these murders right right.

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Speaker 1: Right now that I think about it, I believe was

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Speaker 1: season five, McNulty, one of the main characters full spoiler alert,

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Speaker 1: creates a serial killer essentially and does this by working

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Speaker 1: with the press, and he's they're getting there, They're essentially

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Speaker 1: getting more funding through doing this. And one thing that

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Speaker 1: I think struck a lot of people about that about

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Speaker 1: that move was that The Wire had always been praised

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Speaker 1: for its realism and so for something like that to

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Speaker 1: occur in a very grounded show. The implication is that

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Speaker 1: this happens, you know what I mean. Now, of course

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Speaker 1: critics didn't universally love that plot line, but it shows

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Speaker 1: us how common this debate is, this idea that there

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Speaker 1: might be some greater pattern to the tragedy that surrounds us.

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Speaker 1: Here are the facts. Unfortunately, there are no shortages of

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Speaker 1: real life cases, not on the wire, real life cases

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Speaker 1: where in parents or partners of a deceased individual are

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Speaker 1: certain that authorities, through either incompetence, indifference, or even corruption,

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Speaker 1: have misidentified a cause of death, essentially that they've ruled

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Speaker 1: a homicide and accident. And over recent decades in the US,

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Speaker 1: we've seen hundreds of these stories. One that's still with

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Speaker 1: me that I've been doing some outside research on is

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Speaker 1: the Kendrick Johnson case in Valdosta, Georgia. That's the basketball player,

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Speaker 1: the high school kid who was who was found dead,

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Speaker 1: rolled up in the rolled up in a Jim Matt

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and his parents say that, you know, bullies

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Speaker 1: killed or accidentally killed him, and the authorities argue otherwise,

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Speaker 1: They say he accidentally killed himself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Story for another day, maybe maybe we'll do a whole

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Speaker 1: podcast series on it one day. But this might surprise

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Speaker 1: some of us in the audience. Also, over the recent decades,

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Speaker 1: we've seen one surprising source of controversy for these debates

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Speaker 1: over accident versus homicide, and it comes in the case

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Speaker 1: of drowning, which is an unpleasant way to.

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Speaker 2: Go, of course, it really is.

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Speaker 1: But I do think it's surprising that, you know, when

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Speaker 1: you would think of accidental death versus homicide, you would

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Speaker 1: think of things like maybe firearm related deaths.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, Well that's not the case. In this country.

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Speaker 3: There are a lot of fairly large bodies of water

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Speaker 3: and smaller ones too.

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Speaker 2: They're everywhere water, it's everywhere, raging rivers, you know.

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Speaker 3: They they are, and people every year die, whether accidentally

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Speaker 3: or not accidentally, in these bodies of water, and to

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Speaker 3: a lot of people. According to the CDC, from two

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Speaker 3: thousand and five to twenty fourteen, there were an average

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Speaker 3: of three thousand, five hundred and thirty six fatal unintentional drownings.

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Speaker 2: And those were not related to boating.

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Speaker 3: No, no, so not like drinking and boating and that

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Speaker 3: kind of thing, and that that occurs annually within the

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Speaker 3: United States. So every year. That is that's pretty crazy.

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Speaker 3: It translates to about ten deaths a day.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: I just have to say, I grew up near Lake Lanier,

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Speaker 3: which is a fairly large man made lake here in Georgia,

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Speaker 3: and it is it would be surprising, maybe it would

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Speaker 3: be surprising to you, certainly surprising to me the number

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Speaker 3: of people who would accidentally drown in.

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Speaker 2: That lake every year, for sure.

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Speaker 3: And I was unaware of it as a kid, but

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Speaker 3: now when I see statistics about it, it's just it

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Speaker 3: blows my mind. And to be fair, a lot of

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Speaker 3: those do they end up having to do with drinking

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Speaker 3: and swimming, or drinking and boating, something like that. And

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Speaker 3: today's case that we're going to get into a little

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Speaker 3: later also involves perhaps drinking, perhaps drug use, and being

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Speaker 3: in a body of water.

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Speaker 1: I have a very tangentially related, perhaps fun fact.

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Speaker 3: For okay, I'll take some fun right now, which.

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Speaker 1: You probably already know and you probably already know. No,

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Speaker 1: it's this Georgia has no natural lakes. They're all man made.

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Speaker 1: Oh so that's that's a little palate cleanser we do.

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Speaker 2: I'm okay with that. Yeah, yeah. The ingenuity of mankind

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Speaker 2: you know, on full display here in Georgia. Yeah, but

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Speaker 2: we do have some swamps, that's right, we do have

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Speaker 2: some some swamps.

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Speaker 1: Not the best for swimming though, no, no, just for shwimmers.

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Speaker 2: Ross David Swimmer, is that the one he notoriously loves

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Speaker 2: a good swamp.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yes, swamp Ross used to was his name in

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Speaker 1: the pilot. They changed his character a little bit, but okay,

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Speaker 1: so that palate cleanser just helps us get further into

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Speaker 1: the rabbit hole here. Because of those drowning deaths. When

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Speaker 1: we look at drowning deaths, an additional three hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty two people died each year in deaths that were

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Speaker 1: the linear esque ones voting related. Of the people who

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Speaker 1: die about one from drowning, about one in five are

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Speaker 1: children fourteen or younger. And that sadly makes brutal sense,

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Speaker 1: which is.

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Speaker 2: Why life fests are the law, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 2: kids under a certain age are required to wear life.

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Speaker 1: Fests and lifeguards, even in kiddie pools.

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Speaker 2: For sure.

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Speaker 3: And here's something that was surprising to me. Eighty percent

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Speaker 3: of drowning victims, according to the CDC, are male. That

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Speaker 3: doesn't make sense to me, but let's continue on down here.

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Speaker 3: Because almost fifty percent of drownings can be attributed in

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Speaker 3: some way or to some extent, to intoxication of some

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Speaker 3: kind or another.

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Speaker 2: How do you differentiate between a purposeful drowning and an

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Speaker 2: accidental drowning?

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Speaker 1: Ah, there there's the rub. It turns out that proving

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Speaker 1: a drowning was purposeful intentional a homicide. Proving that is

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Speaker 1: very very difficult. A lot of evidence can be washed away.

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Speaker 1: And because drowning is tragically common, and because fifty percent

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Speaker 1: of drownings in this country can be attributed to some

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Speaker 1: sort of inebriation, law enforcement is often it's easy to

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Speaker 1: assume it was an accident because the odds against it

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Speaker 1: being a homicide statistically or very high.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, short of there being like a cinder block tied

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Speaker 2: to someone's leg or the like, or maybe you know,

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Speaker 2: choking marks around a neck or something like that, or

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Speaker 2: some sign of trauma that someone was thrown or held

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Speaker 2: down or whatever, it could very easily be ruled an

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Speaker 2: accidental death. And again that benefits. Again, we're not saying

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Speaker 2: they're doing it on purpose of being lazy, but that

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Speaker 2: absolutely is probably a desired outcome for law enforcement to

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Speaker 2: say Okay, close the book on that. Let's move on

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Speaker 2: to the million other cases that we have.

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Speaker 3: I'm just jumping through here, and I know we're going

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Speaker 3: to hit on this, but the concept of your thinking

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Speaker 3: in your mind of, Okay, we found a drowning victim,

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Speaker 3: but there is blunt force trauma, Like there's evidence of

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Speaker 3: blunt force trauma to.

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Speaker 2: The head or something.

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Speaker 3: Sure, how how can you fully rule out that that

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Speaker 3: didn't occur or when a fall happened or you know

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Speaker 3: there it just becomes it becomes a labyrinth of you

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Speaker 3: have to basically work to say this was a homicide.

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Speaker 1: Rather you yeah, the order of conclusions or operations, the

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Speaker 1: sort of the decision tree yeah does have when it

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Speaker 1: comes to drowning. Uh, the best way to say it

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Speaker 1: is that medical examiners have to rule out every other

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Speaker 1: possible explanation as to why someone ended up dead in

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Speaker 1: the water. And they have to think of, you know,

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Speaker 1: drug overdoses, right, maybe maybe a heart attack, maybe a

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Speaker 1: slip and fall and that caused blunt injury to their

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Speaker 1: head and they were unconscious and couldn't get out of

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Speaker 1: the water, And only after saying it was definitely none

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Speaker 1: of those things, are they able to say maybe it

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Speaker 1: was murder.

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Speaker 2: Not to mention the fact that unless a body is

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Speaker 2: weighted down, which would be clear indication of foul play,

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Speaker 2: it's gonna drift some distance, so it's harder to tie

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Speaker 2: it to the location where the fall maybe actually happen,

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Speaker 2: or say, oh, this is definitely where they hit their head, etc.

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Speaker 2: So it really is kind of a perfect storm of

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Speaker 2: being able to declare it an.

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Speaker 3: Accident, yeah, depending in which body of water they are recovered.

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Speaker 1: And then it gets more complicated because all of that

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Speaker 1: if all of those things somehow happen and a medical

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Speaker 1: examiner is able to say this indicates that it could

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Speaker 1: only be a murder if that very rare set of

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Speaker 1: circumstances occurs, then the next step is to prosecute or find,

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Speaker 1: you know, someone who would have done this, And like

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Speaker 1: a lot of violent crime, in homicide murders that we

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Speaker 1: know of and that are proven, the criminal is usually

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Speaker 1: someone familiar with the victim.

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Speaker 2: It's not just a random right.

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Speaker 1: But prosecutors have to prove that. They have to prove

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Speaker 1: a drowning was intentional, which means they have to build

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Speaker 1: a case on circumstantial evidence. They have to be able

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Speaker 1: not just to say, okay, the flow of the river

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Speaker 1: is this, or we know that the lake works this way.

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Speaker 1: They have to also say, you know these people were fighting,

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Speaker 1: Tammy and Tamara or whatever were angry at each other outive. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they have to do motive exactly where there was money,

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Speaker 1: There were money issues, there was an insurance policy that

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Speaker 1: just got taken out forty eight hours before, there was

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Speaker 1: trouble with the law. And because of all of these factors,

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Speaker 1: it's very difficult to know how many homicides involving drowning

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Speaker 1: actually exist, and there's not much research on it. Local

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Speaker 1: police statistics, of course, are not always as well documented

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Speaker 1: as people would hope. Like consider this, Matt, you give

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Speaker 1: us the statistics of drowning. Overall proving cases of drowning.

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Speaker 1: According to the FBI in twenty seventeen, we just pull

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Speaker 1: one year from their uniform crime report, there were only

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Speaker 1: eight homicides by drowning. And that's out of what more

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Speaker 1: than three and a half thousand, thirty five hundred per year,

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Speaker 1: So they were out of those that were only able

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Speaker 1: to prove that eight were homicides. And this bothers people

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Speaker 1: in multiple aspects of law enforcement.

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Speaker 3: There's a diver that's less than an average number of

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Speaker 3: drownings that occur per day.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That's a great way to

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Speaker 1: look at it. So according to people like a diver

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Speaker 1: named Andrea Zaferis, who began assisting homicide investigators with cases

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Speaker 1: involving drowning way back in nineteen ninety eight, this diver says,

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Speaker 1: we're absolutely missing more than we're catching in homicide drowning cases.

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Speaker 1: A vast majority of drownings are accidental, but many which

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Speaker 1: can be the result of foul foul play, are overlooked.

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Speaker 1: So they're saying they're not They're saying, look, I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying that everybody who drowned was murdered, but I'm saying

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Speaker 1: we are missing stuff, and behind the scenes, everybody knows it.

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Speaker 1: Because also a lot of a lot of professionals like

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Speaker 1: that it's their career to investigate this stuff don't receive

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Speaker 1: the training they need.

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Speaker 2: But what if a killer knew that too, Like knew

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Speaker 2: those stats and knew how easily these things can go

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Speaker 2: under the radar and be ruled an accident. Because if

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Speaker 2: you ask me, drowning someone wouldn't necessarily be the first

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Speaker 2: way you might choose to kill somebody. It's a little tenuous, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: unless certain things are in place, how are you going

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Speaker 2: to know if the person actually died or not. It's

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Speaker 2: an interesting question. But what if someone did know and

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Speaker 2: was able to kind of fit this into their plan? Right?

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Speaker 1: What if some of these accidental drownings are in fact murders,

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Speaker 1: And furthermore, what if these murders are related.

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Speaker 3: We'll talk about that right after a word from our sponsor.

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Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. We are entering the realm

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Speaker 1: of what is commonly called the smiley face murder theory,

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Speaker 1: the smiley face murders, the smiley face killer, or slight

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Speaker 1: spoiler alert here killers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: This theory argues that more than forty cases I think

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Speaker 1: forty five or so of fatal drownings between nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: seven and at least two thousand and eight were mistakenly

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Speaker 1: labeled accidental when they were in fact homicides.

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Speaker 3: And that number, by the way, as we go through

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Speaker 3: this has the number of suspected cases of fatal drowning

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Speaker 3: related to this case hasn't necessarily grown, but the possible

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Speaker 3: cases identified by some of these guys has risen up

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Speaker 3: into the three hundred something range.

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Speaker 1: Right in this that number comes often from people who

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Speaker 1: later came to the theory and started finding what they

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Speaker 1: felt were commonalities.

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Speaker 3: And some of the original investigators.

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Speaker 1: And some of the original investigators, So here's the gist.

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Speaker 1: These cases of fatal drownings involved young men, college age

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Speaker 1: dudes who were found dead in bodies of water across

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Speaker 1: several different Midwestern states in the US over the last decade,

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Speaker 1: and the investigators eventually started using the term serial killer,

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Speaker 1: which a lot of professionals hate because it feels a

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Speaker 1: little alarmist and hyperbolic. But why smiley face? Did they

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Speaker 1: just pick that one? We all know what as smiley faces.

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Speaker 1: We don't have to overthink that. It's like, we all

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Speaker 1: know what drowning is. Smiley face, two dots, bottom half

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Speaker 1: of a circle.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it looks like a face. Well, in this case,

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Speaker 2: the idea of the smiley face because and connected to

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Speaker 2: this alleged string of murders cluster of murders. When it

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Speaker 2: was announced publicly that police had discovered graffiti depicting that

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Speaker 2: ubiquitous two dots and half a circle smiley face near

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Speaker 2: the locations where they believe the killer or potentially killers

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Speaker 2: dumped bodies in at least a dozen of these cases. Also,

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Speaker 2: a phrase sinsinewa was also cited as being found near

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Speaker 2: some of these areas that were being investigated in connection

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Speaker 2: with bodies found floating in water.

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Speaker 3: I would like to point out here that the smiley faces, again,

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Speaker 3: it's only in thirteen of these identified forty something cases,

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Speaker 3: but it changes a lot. You can go online and

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Speaker 3: see pictures of several of the alleged smiley face connected

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Speaker 3: graffiti's and they really like one of them looks like

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Speaker 3: a little version of a devil or demon. They're in

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Speaker 3: varying colors, varying sizes and styles. It's interesting that it's

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Speaker 3: not a single symbol. You know, if that was going

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Speaker 3: to be just a serial killer, you'd think that it

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Speaker 3: would just be a symbol. But perhaps as we get

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Speaker 3: through here, it'll make more sense of why it would change, right.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about that in a few minutes as well,

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Speaker 1: the differing interpretations of what a smiley face might be

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Speaker 1: or what the import of it is. Let's look let's

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Speaker 1: step back, let's look at the proponents, the creators of

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Speaker 1: this theory. To do so, we journeyed to New York

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Speaker 1: where we meet New York Police Department detectives Kevin Gannon

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Speaker 1: and Anthony d'Arte now retired, now retire, both retired and

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Speaker 1: private investigators. In two thousand and eight, they announced that

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Speaker 1: they believed one Patrick McNeil, a twenty four year old

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Speaker 1: accounting major at the time of his death, did not

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Speaker 1: drown accidentally. But Okay, what happened to McNeil at the time,

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Speaker 1: by the way, Gannon was, Gannon was a working detective.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't retired yet.

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Speaker 2: Correct.

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Speaker 3: So McNeil was hanging out in the East Side, the

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Speaker 3: Upper east Side of New York City. He was having

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Speaker 3: a night of it. He was drinking. It was February sixteenth,

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven. He's at this place called the Dapper

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Speaker 3: Dog that's on East ninety second Street there in New

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Speaker 3: York City, and he's hanging out, he's doing his thing,

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Speaker 3: he's having a night of it. He disappears, and then

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Speaker 3: later on April seventh, nineteen ninety seven, his body is discovered.

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Speaker 3: He's discovered near the sixty ninth Street pier in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 3: He is floating in the water.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so Gannon at the time is specifically working and

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Speaker 1: missing persons and he catches the case.

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Speaker 2: It's in the East River, by the way, the.

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Speaker 1: Case is ruled unintentionalental and this is one of those

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Speaker 1: things that, you know, it's weird. A lot of a

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Speaker 1: lot of people in law enforcement or in related jobs

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Speaker 1: tend to get a case or certain cases that that

438
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: stay with them, that haunt them, you know, And this

439
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: was it for Gannon. He did not agree with the

440
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 1: official findings, and he spoke with the parents of McNeil

441
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: and he said, you know what, job aside, I am

442
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: not giving up this investigation until I find the real

443
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: story of what happened to your son. And this stays

444
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: with him throughout his career. When he retires, he enlists

445
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: Anthony d'Arte, who is his old partner, and he says,

446
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:51,239
Speaker 1: let's let's do this full time. It's similar to in

447
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 1: a way of want to do another fictional comparison, it's

448
00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:02,880
Speaker 1: similar to Marty and rust Coal in True Detective season one,

449
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: right when this doesn't really spoil a story, but there's

450
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: a segment where neither of them are working for law enforcement,

451
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: but there's a case they can't let go and they

452
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 1: become they're working as pis essentially that's what these guys

453
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: do in real life, and Gannon mortgages his house, spends

454
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 1: his savings researching this, chasing these cases, and they start

455
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: linking McNeil's death to other cases that they feel have

456
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: disturbing things in common, because it turns out that McNeil

457
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: is not the only person in this part of the

458
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: world who went out for a night partying with their

459
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: friends and was later found dead in the water.

460
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's jump right back quickly, just to talk about

461
00:27:55,280 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 3: how McNeil is a college senior. He is, like a

462
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 3: lot of the people were going to talk about, he's

463
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 3: pretty athletic. He's kind of at the top of his game, right,

464
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 3: He's a young white male, And that is one of

465
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 3: the things that ends up linking a lot of these

466
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 3: cases together, just one of the top level things. So

467
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 3: they noticed that McNeil's death was similar to that of

468
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 3: a gentleman named Lawrence Andrews. This guy was twenty two

469
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 3: years old. He was New Year's Eve in two thousand

470
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 3: and six. He was drinking near Grand Central Terminal and

471
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,360
Speaker 3: he vanished, and then later his body was discovered on

472
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 3: February twelfth, two thousand and seven, also off the sixty

473
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 3: ninth Street Pier, close to where McNeil was.

474
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 2: Found, and Gannon.

475
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: Says that he and his partner studied the water flow

476
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,479
Speaker 1: of the area and the contours of the land, and

477
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: he said, look, the similarities between these two cases cannot

478
00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: just be accident. He believed that in both cases, is

479
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: the victims were drugged with GHB.

480
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 2: Was the dayreak drug right right right?

481
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: That makes you know, insensate, unconscious, unable to.

482
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 2: Fight back or defend yourself. Is it essentially like a

483
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 2: sedative or is it more like maybe you know, what

484
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: they would call a benzodiazepin, like a xanax or something

485
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 2: where it kind of makes you black out almost where

486
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 2: you don't remember what's going on.

487
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: I do know it affects. It does affect memory, I believe,

488
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: and people have used it as a party drug. But

489
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: I always learned about it as as I always learned

490
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 1: about it as you know, a drug that creeps give

491
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:45,479
Speaker 1: to people to sexually assault, and technically I believe it

492
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: is a central nervous system depressant. Anyhow, he says, this

493
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,959
Speaker 1: specific substance has been given to these guys. They were

494
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: drugged and then they were placed in the water after

495
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: some amount of time, which will become very important later.

496
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 4: And then.

497
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: These two guys learn that four young men had vanished

498
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: in Minnesota and Wisconsin over a forty day period in

499
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: two thousand and three, and that they, like McNeil and

500
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: like Lawrence Andrews, had a lot of the similar things

501
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: that you had just described. Mat somebody's out, maybe partying

502
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: with their friends, and then they walk off, perhaps not

503
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: seeming to be in a state of distress, and then

504
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: they disappear. The detectives did something interesting here, and it

505
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: goes to a point you made earlier, nol. They started

506
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: looking not to where the bodies were physically found, but

507
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: to where, according to their best guests, the bodies had

508
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: entered the water right and that's where they found the

509
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: smiley faces. And again, as as established earlier, not they

510
00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: didn't find forty five different smiley face icons for every

511
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: you know, every body that was discovered. They only found

512
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: twenty two or twenty something at the time.

513
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: I know we're gonna get there, but I do want

514
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 2: to say that that is a as we mentioned, a

515
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 2: pretty ubiquitous, very low key graffiti. Everyone knows how to

516
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: do it. You know, any of your fair weather taggers.

517
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 2: That would be a pretty easy go to to just

518
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: do a circle, two dots and a half a circle.

519
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 3: You know.

520
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the guy who made this smiley face.

521
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: Work of genius. Really, I imagine doing something that important.

522
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: It's three lines.

523
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 2: It's one of those things too, where it's like such

524
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 2: a parallel thinking type thing and such a simple thing.

525
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 2: I don't I almost guarantee there's no one like credited

526
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 2: with the smiley face. Actually, I think there might be.

527
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: Actually I think there might be, and it may be

528
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: just because of just because that's the person who got

529
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: it on a T shirt that was have a nice day, maybe, right, Yeah,

530
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: maybe that's what I'm thinking of.

531
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 2: Harvey ross Ball, yep. Interesting fifty years ago in Worcester, Massachusetts,

532
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 2: an American graphic artist. He's credited as creating this. Okay,

533
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: that's right, I did.

534
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: I think I did an episode of Maybe Stuff of

535
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: Genius about that. A lot of people in the US

536
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: learn about that through the film adaptation of Forrest Gump

537
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: when the guy's going on his running streak and then

538
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: he wipes his face.

539
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: With the right. Yeah.

540
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that aside, it is a very very very

541
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: very common. Dare I say ubiquitous icon.

542
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: It's funny not to get a too off talk, but

543
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 2: you guys know, I worked on a show called Happy

544
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: Face about the Happy Face serial killer, and he was

545
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: given that moniker because he signed his letters to the

546
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: press with that very same icon. And when you google

547
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 2: Smiley Face Killer, happy Face Killer comes up a lot too,

548
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 2: so they're often kind of conflated because of the similarities

549
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 2: in the in the monikers.

550
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's that's a very important distinction. These are

551
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: These are, as far as we know, not related, and

552
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: I don't think Gannon or d'artay are arguing that they are.

553
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: But they are arguing that they found copious evidence suggesting

554
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: that McNeil, who again is sort of the genesis the

555
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: origin point for this theory, that McNeil didn't just walk

556
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: off a few sheets to the wind and then fall

557
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: in a river and drown. They're saying that someone intoxicated him,

558
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: they drugged him. There was a car seen following him

559
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: after he left the bar, the Dapper Dog. They're also

560
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: saying he had ligature marks on his neck, charring on

561
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: his head and torso, and that the way his body

562
00:33:54,600 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: was positioned was inconsistent with normal drowning. So someone tortured him,

563
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: drugged him, tortured him and then placed him in the water.

564
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: They said he had been stalked, drugged, abducted, bound burned,

565
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: and then killed and then dumped in the water.

566
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 3: Well, and it you know, the one major thing that

567
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 3: makes sense there is that he was missing for a month,

568
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 3: you know, so it's he dropped off the map, he

569
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 3: was somewhere, and then forty days later he was found dead.

570
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 3: And he you know, he doesn't seem like he was

571
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 3: sitting in the water for forty.

572
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 2: Days exactly, right.

573
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: It seems like he had been in the water for

574
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 1: a relatively short amount of time, right, And we see

575
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: that that's another commonality they look for in some of

576
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: these cases is the the the amount of time, the

577
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 1: gap between when a victim was last seen and when

578
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: their body was discovered. And in some cases that's that's

579
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: quite a stretch, you know. They said that McNeil was

580
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,919
Speaker 1: murdered by what they called this Miley Face gang. See,

581
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: because they don't believe it's just one person. They believe

582
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,439
Speaker 1: there is a group doing this. That's the only way

583
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: they think you can explain the regional distribution of the

584
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:22,320
Speaker 1: murders twenty five cities across eleven states since nineteen ninety seven,

585
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: maybe even continuing today according to them, and we talked

586
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 1: a little bit about the commonalities they use to link

587
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 1: these cases, But what are they other than the method

588
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: of murder, which would be drugging and drowning.

589
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 3: One of the big things they noticed is that these

590
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 3: guys were very similar with regards to their demographics. These

591
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 3: are young men, a lot of them college age, who

592
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 3: disappeared after a night of drinking, specifically going out and drinking,

593
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 3: and they did end up dying. They also noticed that

594
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 3: these guys are athletic, a lot of them, at least

595
00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 3: the majority of these cases.

596
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 2: Were young white men who were athletic, and this purported

597
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 2: symbol of what you could call, I guess, a gang

598
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 2: or a cell of potential killers. The smiley faces were

599
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 2: drawn on walls around just twenty two of the crime

600
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 2: scenes in five different states, including Indiana, Iowa, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania,

601
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 2: and Ohio. We also have the size and shape of

602
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 2: the smiley faces varying, and the paint used also varying.

603
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 2: Some of the faces, for example, might have had horns,

604
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 2: which is a popular variation on that like you can

605
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 2: think of like an emoji like the kind of wicked

606
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 2: and having, you know, like sort of dastardly fun, mischievous

607
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 2: emoji smiley that has sort of like a smirk in

608
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 2: the horns. I think we of hot topic in Gatzu.

609
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: Totally cool. Yeah. I actually remember when I was a kid,

610
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 2: a huge Smashing Pumpkins fan, and there was a Smashing

611
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 2: Pumpkins T shirt for that Melancholy the Infinite Sadness album

612
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 2: and it said the world is a vampire and it

613
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 2: had a kind of iconic smiley vampire with fangs and

614
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 2: little horns drawn in this exact same style. Yeah.

615
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 3: And Gannon, the investigator there, even he has a quote

616
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 3: I think we mentioned this, but he calls it an evil,

617
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 3: happy smiley man.

618
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: Right, And just for a second when you said Gannon,

619
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: I was thinking of the antagonist in Zelda.

620
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 2: I know me too different Gannon Kevin.

621
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 1: Gannon turned a new corner and he left High Rule

622
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 1: and became a p I because he's got a lot,

623
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: he's got a lot of skeletons, and he's a tortured

624
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: anti hero.

625
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 6: Wait.

626
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 3: The character, yeah, he's the main bad guy.

627
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 2: Was from from the beginning of the series.

628
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:41,240
Speaker 3: From the ones that I played.

629
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, you're talking about like early Nintendo versions or

630
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 2: like more like recent ones like the Windwalkers. Yeah, for me,

631
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 2: it was the early.

632
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 1: Nintendo h but but but our Gannon in this story

633
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: is Gannon with G A ed N O N.

634
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 2: Spelling, yet ken in front of it and with a

635
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 2: Kevin in front of it.

636
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: Kevin's the important distinction there, really quick, another little pellet cleanser.

637
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: Did you hear they are? It seems like it's such

638
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 2: a missed opportunity. They're making a Zelda series. Yep, Yeah,

639
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,720
Speaker 2: it's gonna be a stream took long enough, right, doesn't

640
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 2: it seem like that one is rife?

641
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 3: There was a Zelda series, right, I.

642
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 2: Don't think so. There may be a cartoon, but this

643
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,919
Speaker 2: will be live action. Yeah, whoa really? Uh oh shit,

644
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 2: it's like one of the few video game adaptations that

645
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 2: actually could be really cool.

646
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 3: Yes, I do remember watching the legend of Zelda cartoons. Okay,

647
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 3: I just wanted to make sure I was remembering that correctly.

648
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: Matt, you had mentioned earlier that idea that the idea

649
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: of the differentiation between the icons, and again the idea

650
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 1: that there's a very common icon but from now, let's

651
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 1: just let's approach it this way. If this theory is true,

652
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 1: it is profoundly disturbing. And again, if it's true, there

653
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: are terrifying implications here. First, there's the possibility of multiple

654
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 1: killers working in concert. The reason that is disturbing is because,

655
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: despite what fiction would have you believe, it is incredibly

656
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: rare for investigators for anyone to find a proven case

657
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: of serial killers operate cooperating. Really, it's the kind of

658
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 1: mental disfigurement that leads someone to become a serial murderer,

659
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: doesn't really doesn't really predispose them to group work or

660
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 1: group projects. There are some, of course, there are exceptions there.

661
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 1: Lake and Ing would be one famous case rough Henry

662
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: Lee Lucas an oddis tool which you may remember from

663
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: our Hand of Death episodes, and he got a recent

664
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: mention under Samuel Little episode. So for that to exist,

665
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: for a group like that to exist, this would be

666
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: one of the first proven cases. The second terrifying implication

667
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 1: they have a long career, you know.

668
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 2: What I mean, almost twenty three years, right.

669
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 1: And that's just that's that we know about, right, that's

670
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: just assuming what Gannon and d'Arte have found is legit.

671
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: The third is, if you think about it, this is

672
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 1: technically organized crime at that point, because it denotes a

673
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 1: level of organization that serial killers have not been proven

674
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: to have. Lake and Ing weren't doing this. Lucas and

675
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 1: Toole certainly were not. In fact, Gannon has described this

676
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: as a a nationwide group that functions in terms of cells,

677
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: similar to a terrorist group. The weird thing about that

678
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 1: is it is possible for it is possible for people

679
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: to operate in a decentralized way like this just by

680
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 1: using Internet forums to communicate, similar to the what is

681
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: the thing with old Dutch? The Lake City Quiet pills?

682
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, similar to that.

683
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: You know, it's very easy to start a group and

684
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 1: if you're careful with your language, to communicate things from

685
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: point A to point B without ever pinging law enforcement,

686
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, or anyone else, or anyone

687
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 1: else that you don't want them to know.

688
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 3: You could do it right under the nose of somebody.

689
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: I mean, have you ever gone to a form and

690
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: found some stuff that seemed like it was a code?

691
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 2: I don't know. No, Okay, all right, well, I don't

692
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 2: want to put you in a bad spot there or

693
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 2: a Facebook group, right, right, right, But let's say it's

694
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:41,760
Speaker 2: all true.

695
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: If this is all true, then that means those implications

696
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 1: are necessarily true. It logically follows, and then the next

697
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: question is why aren't the authorities doing more? Well, that's

698
00:41:54,560 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: because it's a controversial theory and not everyone agrees. And

699
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,240
Speaker 1: what's happening here we'll dive into the problems with the narrative.

700
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: After a word from our sponsors, we're back. So, as

701
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: we've said, there are problems with this narrative. This exploring

702
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: these problems, of course, should in no way be interpreted

703
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 1: as disrespectful to the families, or the victims or the

704
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:31,280
Speaker 1: investigators involved. We're just looking at all the different explorations.

705
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: There's a nonprofit group called the Center for Homicide Research,

706
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:40,240
Speaker 1: and they attempted to scientifically debunk the smiley face murders

707
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: or killers theory. They came up with. They came up

708
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,359
Speaker 1: with a They had a report that you can find

709
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 1: online that has a laundry list of reasons why they

710
00:42:54,000 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: think this narrative described by Gannon doesn't hold water. And honestly,

711
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: they they have some good points, like we do not

712
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: have solid evidence that the smiley faces were drawn at

713
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: the same time the bodies were put in the water, right.

714
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 3: That makes sense. They also know that graffiti exists everywhere,

715
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 3: especially I mean if you think about a place that

716
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 3: isn't visited a whole bunch, even if it's down by

717
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 3: a river or somewhere, you know, you will find graffiti.

718
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 2: Well, that's where your run of the mill novice tagger

719
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 2: is going to cut their teeth is out of like

720
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 2: you know, the public eye, like under a bridge, or

721
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 2: on a retaining wall like around like the La River

722
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,760
Speaker 2: for example, or any other body of water that's in

723
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 2: a municipal type area, you know, like up here, like

724
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 2: in New York City, where several of these cases took place.

725
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 3: Well, they also make the exact same point that we

726
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 3: were just talking about, how ubiquitous smiley faces just are

727
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 3: as a symbol and.

728
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: What a dashed off thing a kid might do. You know,

729
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 2: I want to be a graffiti artist. You know what's

730
00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 2: the first thing that's going to come to mind. The

731
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,720
Speaker 2: most simple iconographic thing you could do is that circle,

732
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 2: two dots and a half moon. You know, it's it

733
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 2: takes very little forethought, the easiest thing in the world

734
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:09,959
Speaker 2: just to dash off from the top of your head,

735
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 2: you know.

736
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it also pretty clearly doesn't seem to be

737
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 3: a you know, a gang sign because it's not matching, right,

738
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,919
Speaker 3: they're so dissimilar. But they also noticed that that other

739
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,439
Speaker 3: word that we mentioned earlier in Sinewa, since Sinewa, they

740
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 3: they note that that is a common use of graffiti,

741
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 3: a common thing to be written, so it appears to

742
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 3: be also a red herring. They're saying both the smiley

743
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:35,439
Speaker 3: face and that her.

744
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 2: Red hearing then made the point that, you know how

745
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:41,240
Speaker 2: a lot of you'll see single words written on overpass bridges,

746
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 2: et cetera. That is typically a signature of a particular

747
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 2: tagger or a graffiti artist. So since Sinewa could be

748
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 2: one individual who travels around, maybe a train kid or

749
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: something who travels around and just does this tag.

750
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: Or it could or it could be multiple people who

751
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 1: think that's a cool name, super creepy sounding, right, you know,

752
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: because graft heads and painters they get they take that

753
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: name stuff very seriously, absolutely, you know it. Also, it

754
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,919
Speaker 1: also reminds me of one of my favorite taggers over

755
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: the years in Atlanta. There was for a time a

756
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:24,280
Speaker 1: guy or girl or person who did the tag goat Ravisher.

757
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 1: And they didn't do it in a stylistic way. They

758
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: did a really bad job, so bad that you would

759
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: think it's on purpose. They it just looked like they

760
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 1: have found something, and in shaky block letters, spray painted

761
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,919
Speaker 1: the goat Ravisher, and they were all over little five

762
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: points they had. They had some spots on the bridge

763
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: right outside of our office, and I kept.

764
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 2: Thinking, man, I love I love this.

765
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: In my head, there's always some weird college doom like

766
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 1: I love this dude's energy because it was real. It

767
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 1: was right next to really really nice ornate tags and pieces,

768
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 1: and this guy would come by and be like, oh,

769
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: that probably took them like six hours. Anyway, the goat

770
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:06,479
Speaker 1: Ravisher strikes again.

771
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 2: I also, like, you know, I also love the idea

772
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 2: that this person is clearly romancing the goat. You know,

773
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 2: it's really like, you know, whining and dining the goat.

774
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure it's like greatest of all time.

775
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 2: I think it's pretty good. So it's the greatest of

776
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 2: all time Ravisher.

777
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 1: So goat Ravisher. If you're listening, nice work man, miss

778
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 1: on the streets. Yeah, we see you, we see you.

779
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 2: But Sinswa is a since Cinewa that's s I N

780
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 2: s I N I w A is also common graffiti.

781
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: So this nonprofit Center for Homicide Research dismisses that as

782
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 1: a red herring.

783
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 2: A lot of people I've never seen it.

784
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: A lot of people who are yeah, it's not common

785
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: here in Atlanta right. A lot of people who are

786
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: proponents of the theory feel like this list is somewhat dismissive.

787
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: But they raise another great point, which is estimating where

788
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: the body might have entered the water. If it's you know,

789
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 1: X number of yards up or even a mile up

790
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: river from where the body was discovered, it's just that

791
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 1: it's an estimation. It can be it can be an

792
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: estimation with a high degree of sophistication, but it's still

793
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 1: it's never going to be a definite, or it's it's

794
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: gonna be rare for it to be a definite. There

795
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 1: will always be that question. They also disagree with Gannon's

796
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,240
Speaker 1: findings on McNeil. They say there's no evidence of victim

797
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 1: trauma and the vast majority of recovered remains don't show

798
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 1: that the victims were recipients of trauma, that they didn't

799
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: have some you know, egregious signs of a beating or something.

800
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: They also point out that homicidal drowning is incredibly rare.

801
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: Again this, this is this, This is a statement you

802
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 1: could you could pick a bone with. You could have

803
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: a problem with this one, because they're saying that homicidal

804
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: drownings account for two tenths of one percent of all

805
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 1: US killings point two percent. How that number has to

806
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 1: be based on the very rare proven cases of homicide

807
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 1: by drowning, and to be a proven case of homicide

808
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,959
Speaker 1: by drowning, remember that entire checklist of things that investigators

809
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: have to go through first. So odds are I mean,

810
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 1: there's no question about odds. Are more people have died

811
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: by homicidal drowning than the official numbers would suggest.

812
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 2: Can we double back really quickly to Gannon's obsession and

813
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 2: where you think this? What the seeds of this were?

814
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 2: It was that one particular case.

815
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, of the family, that's it, right, family, that case.

816
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 3: I mean think about that, I think just think about that.

817
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 3: Somebody comes to you and you know you're working, let's say,

818
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 3: with them for some reason and in some ways working

819
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:50,320
Speaker 3: for them as a public servant, as a part of

820
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 3: the NYPD, trying to find their son. It's because it's

821
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 3: a member. It's a missing person's case for him in

822
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 3: the beginning, so he's learning everything he possibly can. I'm

823
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 3: just this is me projecting to Kevin Gannon, but he's

824
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 3: he's so invested in that family, aid in this person

825
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 3: that he's trying to locate for days and days and days,

826
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 3: and then all of a sudden shows up dead and drowned.

827
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 3: And I mean, you can imagine the effect that I

828
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,280
Speaker 3: would have on you if the family is like pleading

829
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 3: with you to figure out what happened.

830
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,399
Speaker 2: You absolutely can And this is why I could never

831
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 2: do that job. But does this not seem like a

832
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 2: classic example of someone getting a little too close to

833
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 2: what they're investigating. You think he got lost in the case,

834
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 2: and got lost in the case, and got lost in

835
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 2: the emotion of it all and needed to build another

836
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 2: narrative and maybe was looking for things that weren't necessarily there,

837
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 2: because when you see this list all gathered together like this,

838
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 2: it really does seem like he was making quite the

839
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 2: leap of judgment. Well, that's that's the question.

840
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 3: So there's more I'm gonna say, We're gonna bring up later.

841
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 3: There's there's one or two major things that make me

842
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 3: lean a little closer to thinking their something going on.

843
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 3: But let's continue on this list of why it's probably not,

844
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:03,959
Speaker 3: at least according.

845
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 2: To this one.

846
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: Right, well, the idea that water washes away all evidence

847
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: is somewhat of a myth or misleading. They argue that

848
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 1: the drownings do not fit a serial killer motive. I

849
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:20,399
Speaker 1: do also want to point out that I this might

850
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: be a hot take, but I don't think Harvey Rossball,

851
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,240
Speaker 1: the inventor of the smiley face, is directly related.

852
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 2: You know, I think his hands are cleaning this one,

853
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 2: pretty sure. Yes.

854
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:37,839
Speaker 1: And then they also have confessions of confessions of people

855
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 1: who are incarcerated that are saying something was a murder,

856
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: right or saying that saying that they saw something, they

857
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: witness something leading up to one of these disappearances. The

858
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: problem with that is that it's you have to be

859
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: really skeptical when you hear the confessions of inmates. Right

860
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 1: the again, the Lucas conundrum, right with Henry Lee Lucas

861
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: confessing to hundreds of murders he could not have possibly done,

862
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 1: not have physically accomplished, in exchange for you know, perks

863
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:12,399
Speaker 1: in lifeline Bob.

864
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 3: Even goes back to the same mule little case.

865
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, absolutely yeah, which is the whole reason we

866
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 1: found out about America's most prolific serial killer. So they

867
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: also say that, in their opinion, the general environment of

868
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 1: the disappearances sound like they're more related to accidental or

869
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: unintentional drownings. They occurred at night, they were in areas

870
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 1: not far from bars or college towns, and they said that,

871
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: you know, people who have been drinking who stagger away

872
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 1: from bars are more likely to walk or stagger downhill

873
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: because it's easier. I get that, but that's like, this

874
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: is not an open sandbox game when when you're walking

875
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 1: home from anywhere, you have a specific direction, and if

876
00:51:57,760 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 1: it's uphill, you still have to go uphill. I don't

877
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,359
Speaker 1: think anybody is like, ah, my apartments at the top

878
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 1: of that hill, so I guess I'm going the other way.

879
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 2: Yeah.

880
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: And then they also say that, you know, rivers also

881
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 1: are downhill, and there are only a few blocks away

882
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 1: from the bars where these cases occur, and that there's

883
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: there there's a dearth of barriers. There aren't very many

884
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 1: fences or railings, so intoxicated people who are having tough

885
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,839
Speaker 1: time coordinating their ambulation might just slip and fall.

886
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 2: That is a really fancy way of saying walking. I

887
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 2: love it. Well, yeah, I just said walking so many times.

888
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 2: It's fair. No, it's great, you're a wordsmith.

889
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 3: It just stinks because they're saying, look, drunk people, when

890
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 3: they're super super drunk, are just gonna stumble away from

891
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 3: that bar and maybe fall down the hill land in

892
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:49,399
Speaker 3: a river because there's no barrier there.

893
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, I love that point about it being

894
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 2: downhill because that's just gravity's gonna like take its course,

895
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.

896
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 3: But these people were missing for a period of time

897
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 3: from a week to who you know, a month, in

898
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 3: a quarter or something.

899
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 2: It's like.

900
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 3: And I take issue with it, but it's okay.

901
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 2: It feels a little victim blame me, right, Yeah, no, no,

902
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:11,839
Speaker 2: I see your point there. I see your point there.

903
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:13,320
Speaker 2: Map I agree.

904
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: And they also say, you know, saying that only males

905
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:19,320
Speaker 1: are drowning in these cases, does it necessarily mean a

906
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 1: serial killers evolved, which is true. They also say that

907
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin, particularly the town of Lacrosse, foot patrols and

908
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: police have stopped over fifty plus drunk people walking essentially

909
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 1: and they've stopped them because they were about to walk

910
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: into the area where the river is late at night

911
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 1: and there are no barriers that can slip and fall.

912
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 2: Or into traffic. I mean, you know, who knows. There's

913
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:46,720
Speaker 2: any number of things. But again, not no victim blaming

914
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:48,399
Speaker 2: here at all. I do want to point out too

915
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 2: that I maybe got this a little wrong early on

916
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 2: when I was leaning on the idea of killing someone

917
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 2: by drowning them is not really a sure thing, right, Like,

918
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 2: if you're just pushing someone into a river, like, how

919
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 2: do you know they're not just gonna swim away or

920
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 2: you know, get out. But part of this theory is

921
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 2: the idea that they were drugged and potentially killed in

922
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 2: advance of being thrown into the river. That's that's part of.

923
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 3: It, or you know what I mean, Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. Yeah,

924
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:16,399
Speaker 3: and that point is one of the things that bugs me.

925
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 2: And so but there's no evidence of that though, right.

926
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 3: There's some there's some weird stuff going on. We're gonna

927
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 3: talk there.

928
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 2: There's some weird stuff. I want to hit this.

929
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 1: They also report on the actions of law enforcement in

930
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:35,360
Speaker 1: the same town, saying that they've they've documented the circumstances

931
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 1: of at least twenty different people who would have drowned

932
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: but have survived. And they said, you know, in every case,

933
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 1: we tried to figure out what got them to that

934
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,399
Speaker 1: point where they almost drowned. Most of the time these

935
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:52,839
Speaker 1: would be accidents. Sometimes they were dares because college kids, right,

936
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:56,240
Speaker 1: we were all we were all there before, or they

937
00:54:56,719 --> 00:55:00,800
Speaker 1: were attempting to commit suicide, or they were again this

938
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 1: is the most victim blamey thing they were involved in

939
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: aspects of auto assassination.

940
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 2: This is a first for me on this term, but

941
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 2: I get it.

942
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 3: It's it's Darwin's h what is it? The Darwin Award,

943
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:17,439
Speaker 3: that's what that's what auto assassination is a Darwin Award. Yeah,

944
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 3: doing something so stupid or like, you know, reckless, that's

945
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 3: what they're saying.

946
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:25,799
Speaker 2: Well, it's also just a lifestyle that involves utter disregard

947
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:30,479
Speaker 2: for one's own longevity or personal well being, your safety, right, Yeah,

948
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 2: like you just throw all caution to the wind, and

949
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 2: you clearly are not looking out for yourself.

950
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:40,479
Speaker 1: People who weren't searching for a victim blamey euphemism would

951
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: have just said self destructive.

952
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 2: There you go.

953
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes you know, as the guy who

954
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:47,239
Speaker 1: just said ambulation a few minutes ago.

955
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 2: We have to be careful, especially.

956
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 1: In law enforcement reports or government reports, when you start

957
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 1: to see the jargon words, you know, when you start

958
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: to hear I don't know, it's like it's the reason

959
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: that sixful cults always go into acronyms. Have you guys

960
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 1: ever read behind the scenes, like actual leaked scientology documents.

961
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 1: They're riddled with acronyms. They're like military writing from the

962
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties.

963
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've watched all of George Carlin's specials, and in

964
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 3: every one of them he's always got a great section

965
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 3: on euphemisms and how we like whitewash everything.

966
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:25,839
Speaker 2: Ac Yeah, you're right. It is a clinical way of

967
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 2: referring to something that potentially is a little darker. Or

968
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 2: it's a way of maybe normalizing concepts that are a

969
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 2: little more outlandish or a little more troubling by giving

970
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 2: them a nice pithy you know, like unsub for example,

971
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 2: that's the unidentified subject in a murder investigation. When you

972
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:47,279
Speaker 2: say unsub, it sounds a lot more digestible, maybe, you.

973
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 1: Know, sure, yeah, or conspiracy theorist. That way, you can

974
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 1: ignore what kind of drug money in international bank is

975
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:56,799
Speaker 1: moving whoa, whoa.

976
00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 2: The old thought terminating cliche exactly.

977
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 1: But these points they also say, as I think we

978
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, that presence of GHB in a victim's body

979
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 1: does not indicate whether they were maliciously drugged or whether

980
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,919
Speaker 1: they did it themselves. That's true if we're exercising skepticism.

981
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 1: But they also say, we don't have enough evidence to

982
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 1: say that they were drugged by offenders prior to their abduction.

983
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 1: These points have some validity, but let's just let's talk

984
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 1: about Let's talk about the other side, because there are

985
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 1: several things here that are incredibly I don't want to

986
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: say they're deal breakers, but they're problematic for anyone who

987
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 1: thinks that Gannon is completely just reading tea leaves. And

988
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 1: the first one is the one I keep coming back to,

989
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 1: is the length of time, Like you said, Matt, the

990
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: length of time between when they were last seen and

991
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 1: when they were discovered. We didn't have great statistics that

992
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 1: we could dig up.

993
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 2: Love to read them. If you are listening, you can

994
00:57:58,720 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 2: find them.

995
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 1: Have great systicks on how long on average it takes

996
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 1: to find the victim of the corpse of a drowning victim.

997
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, well here's the deal for me. I'm just

998
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 3: gonna lay it out really quickly. In the Rolling Stones

999
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 3: article on this subject that I think it came out

1000
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 3: in September.

1001
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 2: Of last year, Yeah, September thirteenth.

1002
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, it names several victims. In particular, we talked

1003
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 3: about Patrick Neil. If you go to this person William

1004
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 3: Hurley that I don't think we actually mentioned on air here.

1005
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 3: He was a guy who was hanging out of Boston

1006
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 3: Bruins game in two thousand and nine October two thousand

1007
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 3: and nine, and his cell phone battery was really low.

1008
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 3: He's he calls his girlfriend drunkenly, he's very intoxicated and says, hey,

1009
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 3: come pick me up. She goes out to meet him

1010
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 3: and he's gone. He's not there. She can't get in

1011
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 3: touch with him. Six days later, his body's found in

1012
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 3: the Charles River and his cell phone is smashed nearby.

1013
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:03,479
Speaker 3: They recover that, like, okay, So that's one right, that's

1014
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 3: one instance. Here we talked about McNeil.

1015
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 1: Dakota James, Yes, Dakota James. So Dakota James is interesting

1016
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 1: in that if we link him to the Smiley face theory.

1017
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 1: He's a case where something almost went wrong, where something

1018
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 1: did go wrong for the criminals, because on December fifteenth,

1019
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, he called his friend Shelley. He said he

1020
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 1: was terrified. He was wandering around Pittsburgh. He was cold,

1021
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 1: he was he didn't know where he was. He asked

1022
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 1: that he couldn't remember what happened. He just sort of

1023
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 1: came to and he was walking around the area and

1024
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 1: the police wouldn't help him. So his friend freaks out.

1025
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 1: Did he get mugged? Was he in an accident?

1026
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 2: Where are you? I'll come find you.

1027
00:59:55,720 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 1: And then she actually does find him, and he's not

1028
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 1: where he said he would be. She was able to

1029
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 1: use her phone to find him, and then when she

1030
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: got there, she saw a dark suv in the wrong lane,

1031
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 1: facing the wrong direction. He was walking out of the hotel,

1032
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 1: headed toward the suv and she caught him. She yelled

1033
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: at him, hey, I'm over here, and he goes to

1034
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: his car. He goes to her car, got in with

1035
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 1: her and left. He didn't seem drunk, didn't seem drugged.

1036
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 1: He was emotional, but he wasn't, you know, wet, dirty,

1037
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 1: hadn't been beaten. He said, he just became aware he

1038
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:42,680
Speaker 1: was walking on the street, had no idea where he

1039
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 1: was or how he got there. And the last thing

1040
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 1: he remembered was leaving his work Christmas party and then

1041
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 1: going to an after party with some of his coworkers

1042
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 1: around seven fifteen pm. And the rest of it he

1043
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 1: didn't remember. He was traumatized at want to go to

1044
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 1: the hospital. He just went home. And then the next day,

1045
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 1: you know, I must have just had a crazy hangover,

1046
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 1: living wild and they may have just forgotten it. Just

1047
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 1: one friend helping out another, except that five weeks later

1048
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 1: he vanished after a similar night out with some coworkers

1049
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 1: and his body was found forty days later. Going back

1050
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 1: to your point, so this sounds like someone almost got.

1051
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:30,080
Speaker 3: Him, Yeah, exactly, so he almost he knew this person

1052
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 3: or he encountered this person early on, it feels like.

1053
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 3: But the craziest thing, at least according to Kevin Gannon,

1054
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 3: Anthony Duarte, and Lee Gilbertson, a criminal justice professor, his

1055
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 3: body when it was recovered only showed decomposition for two

1056
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 3: and a half days and he was gone for forty days.

1057
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:52,240
Speaker 2: Okay, so like that's a weird one, but maybe that's

1058
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:54,919
Speaker 2: Why isn't that just an outlier? Maybe sure, maybe that's

1059
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 2: a weird one.

1060
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:58,919
Speaker 3: Okay, that's a weird one. How about Todd geeb Geib

1061
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 3: He was missed for twenty one days and according to

1062
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 3: these three guys, he showed decomposition of two and a

1063
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 3: half days.

1064
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 2: But I still don't see the connection. They're trying to

1065
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 2: hang like hundreds of murders on this theory, and there's

1066
01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:15,920
Speaker 2: maybe two or three outliers that like are suspicious, and

1067
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 2: we know that people dispose of bodies and bodies of

1068
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:21,160
Speaker 2: water all the time. I mean, it's the oldest trick

1069
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 2: in the book.

1070
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:25,200
Speaker 1: But they haven't They've said they believe there could be

1071
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 1: hundreds of related murders, but they admit they can't prove

1072
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 1: it eat at least for that. And I see the point, Yeah,

1073
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: because for one thing to be for one case to

1074
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 1: be a case of murder, we have to realize one

1075
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 1: case or two cases isolated cases could be cases of

1076
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:49,919
Speaker 1: murder without inherently tying this all in together. For law

1077
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 1: enforcement overall, people are still pretty skeptical about this. You know,

1078
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 1: at this point, honestly, the majority of l eos don't

1079
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 1: think the has a lot of sands the police department

1080
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 1: in Lacrosse, Wisconsin, which is in their theory, it's one

1081
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,959
Speaker 1: of the primary sites for this. They were in charge

1082
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 1: of eight of the investigations. They released a statement reiterating

1083
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 1: their initial conclusion that the deaths were accidental or non

1084
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 1: intentional drownings of inebriated young men, and they said that

1085
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 1: they have found no smiley faced symbols in connection with

1086
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 1: their cases. And so we see other agencies saying that

1087
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:35,000
Speaker 1: the FBI released a statement in twenty two thousand and

1088
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 1: eight denying any sort of killer or group of killers.

1089
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 1: That multiple sources who disagree with Gannon and d'arte's theories

1090
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:51,840
Speaker 1: say that we are creating a pattern where none exists,

1091
01:03:51,920 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 1: perhaps as an emotional reaction to the indescribable pain expectedly

1092
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 1: losing a loved one. At this point, Gannon and Darte

1093
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 1: still stand by their findings and their research. They insist

1094
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 1: the case or linked. They think the smiley faced killer

1095
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:15,480
Speaker 1: or killers is or are still at large.

1096
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 2: And I'm with you, guys.

1097
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 1: There are specific cases where the official explanation leaves something

1098
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 1: to be desired.

1099
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, we didn't even get into things that

1100
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:34,640
Speaker 3: Gainan believes about the lividity lividity of some of these victims,

1101
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 3: and that's a term that's describing the pooling of blood

1102
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 3: in a dead body, like after death has occurred within

1103
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 3: a body. And you know, I mean, I get this

1104
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:49,840
Speaker 3: exactly right. But around sixty hours after death, lividity occurs

1105
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,160
Speaker 3: where blood pools, it just goes toward it uses gravity

1106
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 3: and heads towards the ground, right, and then there's discoloration

1107
01:04:56,520 --> 01:05:00,200
Speaker 3: on the body where the blood has pooled. And he

1108
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:03,680
Speaker 3: at least you know this team Gannon and then the rest.

1109
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 3: They're saying that the lividity within these dead bodies is

1110
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:10,400
Speaker 3: not matching up, and it appears that they were killed

1111
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 3: on land and then dumped in the water. So and

1112
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 3: here's here's the deal for me. Even if these cases

1113
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:18,160
Speaker 3: aren't linked and it's not a single killer or a

1114
01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:20,960
Speaker 3: single group or something killing these people, there are individual

1115
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 3: cases out there that appear to have enough questionable things

1116
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:30,160
Speaker 3: about them that Gannon and those guys have identified that

1117
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:34,240
Speaker 3: some of these cases maybe should be expanded upon or

1118
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 3: could be expanded upon. That's where I'm sitting with it currently.

1119
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:44,360
Speaker 1: I see what you're saying, absolutely, and we have an

1120
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:46,120
Speaker 1: abundance of.

1121
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 2: Other theories.

1122
01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:52,600
Speaker 1: This is pretty much an intro episode to the concepts,

1123
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 1: right sure, because we can deep dive into other theories,

1124
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 1: such as the once popular belief that the killer or

1125
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:07,880
Speaker 1: killers was traveling via their their work right, and they

1126
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 1: were able to use that as a cover because, of course,

1127
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 1: as we all know, if you want to successfully get

1128
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 1: away with committing crimes against strangers, or if you want

1129
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:23,840
Speaker 1: to if you want to murder someone and be a

1130
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:29,560
Speaker 1: ghost and never be connected to it, one very efficient

1131
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 1: way to cover your tracks is to already have been

1132
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 1: traveling for work. And that's our classic episode for this evening.

1133
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 1: We can't wait to hear your thoughts.

1134
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:42,080
Speaker 2: That's right, let us know what you think. You can

1135
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 2: reach you to the Hamil Conspiracy Stuff where we exist

1136
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:48,560
Speaker 2: on Facebook x and YouTube on Instagram and TikTok or

1137
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:49,640
Speaker 2: Conspiracy Stuff Show.

1138
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 3: If you want to call us dial one eight three

1139
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 3: three std WYTK that's our voicemail system. You've got three minutes,

1140
01:06:57,240 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 3: give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if

1141
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 3: we can use your name and message on the air.

1142
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 3: If you got more to say then can fit in

1143
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 3: that voicemail. Why not instead send us a good old

1144
01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:07,040
Speaker 3: fashioned email.

1145
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:10,200
Speaker 6: We are the entities that read every single piece of

1146
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:14,640
Speaker 6: correspondence we receive, be aware, yet not afraid. Sometimes the

1147
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:37,720
Speaker 6: void writes back conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1148
01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:39,960
Speaker 3: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

1149
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 3: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1150
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.