Speaker 1: On the beck Doldcast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef invest
Speaker 1: start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hi, welcome
Speaker 1: to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie Lofton, my
Speaker 1: name is Caitlin Durante. This is our podcast about the
Speaker 1: portrayal of women in film. Oh, I said film today? Wow?
Speaker 1: Yeah it is you're you are right. We are the
Speaker 1: esteemed podcasts that we are. Do you know it's a
Speaker 1: fun fact about us. We were not in the top
Speaker 1: two d podcasts of the year. Bummer. I know. We'll
Speaker 1: tell your friends about us and get us into the
Speaker 1: top two hundred people. Jeez, women, it's true and that's
Speaker 1: why we have to do this podcast. UM. We base
Speaker 1: it loosely on the Bechtel Test. We use that as
Speaker 1: our jumping off point to initiate a bigger conversation about
Speaker 1: representation and portrayals of women in film. Film film. We're
Speaker 1: film podcast. We're assholes now. Sorry, we're pretentious a sorry.
Speaker 1: And if you don't know what the Becktel test is,
Speaker 1: it is a media media test created by Alison Bechtel,
Speaker 1: and it requires that a film have flim Flim have
Speaker 1: two female identifying characters who are named. They must speak
Speaker 1: to each other, and their conversation cannot be about a man,
Speaker 1: and by our standards, it has to be at least
Speaker 1: a two line exchange. You think it'd be easy, but
Speaker 1: it's films actually are not film good are bad, which
Speaker 1: is why we do this podcast because we hate movies.
Speaker 1: Really quick thing that will not pass the Becktel test.
Speaker 1: But I feel compelled to tell you because I was socked. Also,
Speaker 1: I have a male dog now, which I know is upsetting,
Speaker 1: but I am training him to be you know an ally.
Speaker 1: He started humping my leg and I was like, honey,
Speaker 1: did not consent. I will consent, you may hump my leg.
Speaker 1: And then he continued and like keeps learning. Uh. So
Speaker 1: I was walking my dog yesterday because I do that now,
Speaker 1: and I was cat called from wait for it, a
Speaker 1: lime scooter. Someone passed me on a live scooter was
Speaker 1: like you're beautiful, like, oh my god. It was barely
Speaker 1: moving faster than I was, and he was just like
Speaker 1: you're beautiful, like fast me and my doge and it
Speaker 1: was unbelievable Okay, a couple of questions. One, if you
Speaker 1: are cat called when you're with a dog, does that
Speaker 1: mean you're being dog called? Question number two, how many
Speaker 1: nipples does it cat call have? Zero? Zero? Well, I'm
Speaker 1: sorry that that happened to you. I'm also sorry, but
Speaker 1: I'm I almost wonderful with history making. Was that the
Speaker 1: first time that someone had had the goal I feel
Speaker 1: their way back to presumably their grandma's house. Uh so
Speaker 1: that's the update on me dog cat called on a
Speaker 1: lime scooter. We're caught up. Wow, proud of you. Thank you.
Speaker 1: So the movie we're talking about, the movie today is
Speaker 1: Fatal Attraction, and let's just get right into it. Let's
Speaker 1: introduce her guests, let's do it. She is the author
Speaker 1: of Rage Becomes Her, the power of women's anger. So,
Speaker 1: Riya Somali, thanks for having me today. Thank you for
Speaker 1: being here. Yeah, we're so psyched to talk about this. Uh,
Speaker 1: this this very bizarre movie with you. Yes, So what
Speaker 1: is your history your relationship with this movie? So, Riah,
Speaker 1: I really do associate this movie with like peak SU's
Speaker 1: Fluti backlash. That's my first association with it. I mean
Speaker 1: I remember when it came out. I remember all the
Speaker 1: discussion around it. I remember variations on its themes over
Speaker 1: the years. That's that's how I think of it. When
Speaker 1: was the first time you saw it? Oh, I saw
Speaker 1: it in the theaters when it came out. It seems like,
Speaker 1: along with everyone else in the entire world at that time, Well,
Speaker 1: you know, it was so notable. I mean, there were
Speaker 1: women gaining power, and that's always a frightening specter, and
Speaker 1: so these depictions tend to have a lot of resonance. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: well we'll talk about it. Um, Jamie Weer, is your
Speaker 1: history in relationship with the movie? Um? I have seen
Speaker 1: this movie a couple of times. I think I saw
Speaker 1: it for the first time in college as a part
Speaker 1: of probably the worst film class I ever talk. I
Speaker 1: think that the gender dynamics in this movie were completely
Speaker 1: not discussed in the class. It was just like, this
Speaker 1: is how you write a thriller, this is what a
Speaker 1: good thriller is. And I remember being the first time.
Speaker 1: I was not the appropriate amount of horrified, I think
Speaker 1: because I was just like eighteen and didn't know anything
Speaker 1: about anything yet. Um. But I've seen it a few
Speaker 1: times since, and with with each passing viewing, there's like
Speaker 1: new stuff you see or have learned in the intermittent time,
Speaker 1: where I'm just like Jesus, it's just the same. I
Speaker 1: saw it for the first time in college. To this
Speaker 1: was like when I was, like, you know, a young
Speaker 1: film student, hungry to consume all of the media that
Speaker 1: I could, and I knew about this movie. I already
Speaker 1: knew about the boiling bunny scene, so like, that's what
Speaker 1: I knew going into it. I saw it just that
Speaker 1: one time and then didn't revisit it until we were
Speaker 1: prepping for this episode. But um, yeah, it's uh, it's
Speaker 1: a wild this is what this is one of my
Speaker 1: mom's favorite movies. Oh Jill, Yeah, she's I mean, and
Speaker 1: she was it's weird because she was about my age
Speaker 1: when this movie came out, and she was like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's weird. But her her opinions on it, she seems
Speaker 1: to both be aware of the issues but still really
Speaker 1: loves the movie. Where her whole thing was she was like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: Michael Douglas is so horrible. I'm not gonna like fall
Speaker 1: for like him being the good guy, but I love
Speaker 1: the movie and I love when Glenn Close yells. I
Speaker 1: was like, that's a valid, sure, wild, okay, So should
Speaker 1: I should I do the recap? Yeah? Yeah, okay. So
Speaker 1: so we meet Dan Gallagher played by Michael Douglas. He
Speaker 1: is sick lawyer, sick lawyer living in New York City.
Speaker 1: He has a family um, his wife, his wife Beth,
Speaker 1: and they have a young daughter, Ellen with God I
Speaker 1: love the daughter. Um. So she's cute and the baldest
Speaker 1: woman in charge. She is, Yes, she's got she's got
Speaker 1: a very short haircut. Um. So he and his wife
Speaker 1: go to this work function and that's where he meets
Speaker 1: Alex Forrest. That's Glenn Close's character, who, upon meeting her,
Speaker 1: seems very normal, little flirtatious, and she was recently brought
Speaker 1: on to work as an associate editor at the publishing
Speaker 1: company that his law firm represents. I think I have
Speaker 1: all of that right. So Beth, Dan's wife, goes out
Speaker 1: of town for a few days. His wife and Dan
Speaker 1: and Alex cross paths again because they're like working in
Speaker 1: the same vicinity, and they are in a meeting together
Speaker 1: and then it's raining, so they're like, oh, we can't
Speaker 1: be outside, let's get a drink together. Such a tenuous
Speaker 1: it's wet, like you live here. He waits to open
Speaker 1: his umbrella until after he's already standing in the rain.
Speaker 1: It's I think this whole movie could have been avoided
Speaker 1: if he just like been better and umbrella. Yeah there,
Speaker 1: there's God. It's like it's raining, so I'm horny, okay,
Speaker 1: the end of first act, so they get a drink together.
Speaker 1: Then things escalate from there. They wind up at one
Speaker 1: of their apartments. They frick. They only say they have
Speaker 1: sex for those of you who don't know what freaking
Speaker 1: means um. And then they spent a couple of days together,
Speaker 1: and I wrote down quital bliss and I regret writing that,
Speaker 1: but that is what I wrote. You know, I forgot
Speaker 1: that we only say frick, okay, bricklisit freaking um. At
Speaker 1: the end of these couple of days, he's like, look,
Speaker 1: I gotta go, and we can't see each other again
Speaker 1: because I have a his wife who is in the
Speaker 1: country trying to further domesticize him the movie, whe you believe,
Speaker 1: by trying to find a house for him to commute
Speaker 1: into the city and have a night or whatever, something
Speaker 1: about school, bourbons and grandparents. This upsets Alex that she's
Speaker 1: told that he doesn't want to see her again, and
Speaker 1: she gets a little aggressive and she's yelling at him
Speaker 1: and she's kicking him. Uh. And then as he's about
Speaker 1: to leave, it's revealed that she has cut her wrists
Speaker 1: in a suicide attempt. Um. So he stays with her
Speaker 1: for a little longer and then she calms down and
Speaker 1: he's like, Okay, everything's good here, see you never. And
Speaker 1: then Beth and Ellen come back home and it seems
Speaker 1: like everything is back to normal. They're like considering buying
Speaker 1: this house. Um, they're freaking, they're freaking. His daughter is
Speaker 1: doing magic tricks at him. But then Alex Forest shows
Speaker 1: up at Dan's office and she apologizes and she's like, hey,
Speaker 1: I was going through a rough time. I was in
Speaker 1: a crisis. Why don't you go to the opera with
Speaker 1: me as a peace offering? But he declines, doesn't think
Speaker 1: it's a good idea. There's a whole overture of Madam
Speaker 1: Butterfly and how which this becomes important with the ending
Speaker 1: the movie if not Use, where the female protagonist kills
Speaker 1: herself at the end. Put that um, and it seems
Speaker 1: like Alex understands. He says, you know, that's not a
Speaker 1: good idea, I'm a married man, we shouldn't see each
Speaker 1: other again, and she's like okay, cool, and but then
Speaker 1: we cut to her at home and she's like crying.
Speaker 1: She's turning a lamp on and off over and over again.
Speaker 1: She's not doing that. Scene is insanely long. Yeah, sorry,
Speaker 1: that's just a thought. Uh. And then she starts like
Speaker 1: calling his office and calling his home and he does
Speaker 1: agree to meet up with her to be like hey,
Speaker 1: stop bothering me, it's over. But then she's like I
Speaker 1: love you, and also I'm pregnant. Gregnant, sorry, and she
Speaker 1: says she wants to keep the baby. So then she
Speaker 1: shows up at his apartment and is hanging out with
Speaker 1: his wife. His wife because she feigns an interest in
Speaker 1: buying the apartment that they are selling because they're moving
Speaker 1: into this new house, and she gets like his he
Speaker 1: had like unlisted his number. She gets his new number,
Speaker 1: and she's like, hey, I'm going to have this baby,
Speaker 1: and Alex tretends to tell Beth. He's like, you know,
Speaker 1: if you if you're not a part of this, like
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you you're his wife. Um, and then
Speaker 1: it seems like that might have worked and then they
Speaker 1: move into their new house. He gets he gets his
Speaker 1: daughter a pet rabbit um. But then Alex pours acid.
Speaker 1: I think some does something to his car. It's I
Speaker 1: think it was acid. Yeah, she pours acid on his car. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then she sends him an audio message on tape,
Speaker 1: which is basically a podcast. She's just like, hey, you stuck,
Speaker 1: and she uses some homophobic slurs here she does. Dan
Speaker 1: goes to the police and he's like, hey, can something
Speaker 1: be done about this? But they are not helpful. Beth
Speaker 1: comes home. There's a pot boiling on the stove. She
Speaker 1: takes a let off of it, and it is their daughter,
Speaker 1: Ellen's Bonnie rabbit boiling on the stove, and she's like
Speaker 1: what the hell. Dan is like, oops, I got to
Speaker 1: tell you something had an affair. She's pregnant. She and
Speaker 1: she's boiling our pets. She's pregnant and crazy. It's the implication.
Speaker 1: And uh, Dan's his wife is a very traditional his wife. Yes,
Speaker 1: he says, I'm mad, I'm not get out of here.
Speaker 1: But then in the next scene there it's together temporary separation,
Speaker 1: and Beth tells Alex that she will kill her if
Speaker 1: she comes near her family again. But then Alex kidnaps
Speaker 1: their daughter Ellen. Also, Arita believe that like the teachers
Speaker 1: at Ellen's school just had no idea what the mom
Speaker 1: looked like, because they're like, no, she got picked up already, right.
Speaker 1: I thought that we would maybe when we saw Alex again,
Speaker 1: she would have had like maybe dyed her hair to
Speaker 1: make her look like Beth, but that didn't happen. So yeah,
Speaker 1: they just like let any random woman pick up the
Speaker 1: children from this school. I think she brings Ellen to
Speaker 1: what like Coney Island or something, ride a roller coaster,
Speaker 1: and Beth is driving around looking for Ellen, and she
Speaker 1: gets into a car accident. Um, but Alex drops off
Speaker 1: the little girl and returns her home safely. So now
Speaker 1: Dan goes after Alex. There's a big fight. He strangles
Speaker 1: her for a little bit, um, she tries to stab him,
Speaker 1: and then they calmed down. He leaves, and then when
Speaker 1: Beth's taking a bath, probably like I don't know, the
Speaker 1: next day or something like that, Alex shows up in
Speaker 1: the bathroom and she tries to kill Beth. Dan comes
Speaker 1: running in drowns her, we think, but then there's like
Speaker 1: one last jump scare, and then Beth shoots her Sorry,
Speaker 1: it sounds like I'm crying, but I just I'm choking
Speaker 1: on something. So anyway, it's just like it's so sad.
Speaker 1: I love Glenn Close. She's of my favorite actresses. If
Speaker 1: you haven't seen Damages, you should see it. Yeah. Um
Speaker 1: So anyway, so that's the story. Let's take a break
Speaker 1: for a second and then come right back. Where to begin?
Speaker 1: I where to begin? Um? Sorry? What are your kind
Speaker 1: of initial thoughts with? Well, you know, it's interesting, Um.
Speaker 1: I think just around when that movie came out, I
Speaker 1: had just started working, and there was just so much
Speaker 1: conversation about what it meant to have a working woman
Speaker 1: depicted as incapable of personal happiness and indeed unhinged and
Speaker 1: defeated by a happy wife at home. Right like that,
Speaker 1: that was the whole conversation. But it was just pretty stark.
Speaker 1: I mean, it was really remarkable to see the very
Speaker 1: successful trajectory of this movie that managed to make this
Speaker 1: sort of scumbag husband somehow seems sympathetic in light of
Speaker 1: the unhinged woman. It's also funny to me because I
Speaker 1: just also remember, I just remember that the crazier she got,
Speaker 1: the curlier here. God, that's what happened. I remember thinking,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for that, like just a bonus on top, right,
Speaker 1: curly haired people, Yeah, well, you know they've got to
Speaker 1: be crazy, I think, right, And so you know, I
Speaker 1: think it's a morality tale, and it's a pretty blunt,
Speaker 1: forced instrument. It kind of takes a sledgehammer to the
Speaker 1: idea that here's a working woman who's very competent, who's
Speaker 1: you know, has a sex life that's not related to reproduction. Indeed,
Speaker 1: how she kills small mammals. It doesn't really get more
Speaker 1: blunt than that, right, So yeah, I've always I've always
Speaker 1: taken its success as kind of a symbolic step, like
Speaker 1: a clinging of the culture. For sure. I feel like
Speaker 1: this is a movie where like a lot of men
Speaker 1: have seen and have used as an excuse to be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: women are crazy. Haven't you seen satal attraction story written
Speaker 1: and directed? That's right? And it's like the My Crazy
Speaker 1: Ex Girlfriend the television show. There's this idea that crazy
Speaker 1: one stalk men and that maybe killed them, but they
Speaker 1: certainly set out to destroy their lives. And well, first
Speaker 1: of all, there are so many more women who are
Speaker 1: subjected to stalking thing one right, Right, Um. And thing
Speaker 1: two is it's very rarely the case that women actually
Speaker 1: have more economic power, more status, more credibility as leverage
Speaker 1: over men that they choose to target for violence. You know,
Speaker 1: well that that was one of the main things that
Speaker 1: stuck out to me about this movie where we've done
Speaker 1: so many movies on this podcast that feature the reverse
Speaker 1: stalking of a male character pursuing a female character, and
Speaker 1: it is very, very rarely. I don't think in any
Speaker 1: movie we've ever done anyways that stocking tendencies are framed
Speaker 1: as scary or unhealthy when it's done from a man
Speaker 1: to a woman. Most of the movies that the stocking
Speaker 1: trope from a man towards a woman are rom coms
Speaker 1: that are like classic romantic It's like, Wow, look how
Speaker 1: much he loves her. He's following her exactly and it's
Speaker 1: wearing her down until she's like, Yep, we're in love
Speaker 1: and that's true love. Where these have you seen? Unforgettable? No? No,
Speaker 1: that just recently came out. I think, Um, who is
Speaker 1: in that Unforgettable? It's a it's a similar situation where
Speaker 1: there's a actually a new wife and the ex wife
Speaker 1: is Katherine Hagel I believe and she she turns out
Speaker 1: to be really badge crazy, and Rosario Dawson plays the
Speaker 1: new wife. I don't even know if it went to theaters.
Speaker 1: I saw her in an airplane, honest, but but I
Speaker 1: did explicitly watch it because because I was thinking of
Speaker 1: Fatal Attraction, I was like, Okay, well you know this
Speaker 1: many years later, what does this look like? Um? And again,
Speaker 1: actually there is this sort of cold professional woman in
Speaker 1: relief to the sort of softer mellower literary arts magazine person.
Speaker 1: And one is crazy and and one is not. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's I mean the like the Fatal Attraction model. I
Speaker 1: feel like it's been recycled so many times, and like,
Speaker 1: based on the permutations of it, I've seen rarely strays
Speaker 1: from the format no matter what year it's coming out
Speaker 1: in where our producer Sophie was bringing up before hid
Speaker 1: a movie I remember seeing in high school was Obsessed,
Speaker 1: which is basically Fatal Attraction, but Beyonce plays the good
Speaker 1: wife and it's the same story but like just a
Speaker 1: worse made movie. It's the same story. And another movie
Speaker 1: that we've covered, Single White Female, which came out a
Speaker 1: few years after Fatal Attraction, but it's you know, about
Speaker 1: this woman who targets another woman and basically you know,
Speaker 1: copies her life and goes after her boyfriend and just
Speaker 1: like similar unranged, scary, stalker ish behavior. And I don't
Speaker 1: know if filmmakers of this time were like, yeah, we
Speaker 1: gotta like push the bar and like what if we
Speaker 1: saw a story about a woman stoker And like, I
Speaker 1: don't know what they were thinking, but not to say that.
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of that Madonna whore dichotomy, you know,
Speaker 1: the kind of good woman bad woman cat fight and
Speaker 1: women having to stay in their sphere, which is considered
Speaker 1: exhibiting power within the context of relationships to men. You know,
Speaker 1: I think really the more power women have in the
Speaker 1: culture institutionally, the more these narratives kept putting them back
Speaker 1: into these domestic arenas where they could do get out.
Speaker 1: It's it's interesting because I feel like this, this movie
Speaker 1: in particular, is kind of firing on all cylinders in
Speaker 1: terms of putting women back in their place and making
Speaker 1: a female character who on paper seems to be pretty
Speaker 1: progressive and empowered and turning her into this monster. Because
Speaker 1: there's a professional element to this where Glenn Close is
Speaker 1: very successful in her chosen field, and that is demonized
Speaker 1: against her. She's unmarried, that is demonized against her. And uh,
Speaker 1: she is older and and that is held against her too,
Speaker 1: which I thought was especially strange in this movie where
Speaker 1: I was just trying to catch up on the context
Speaker 1: of when this movie came out, and there was that
Speaker 1: Newsweek story that I've heard reference before, But there was
Speaker 1: a story that came out in eight six that was
Speaker 1: like women over forty are more likely to get killed
Speaker 1: by terrorists than married. Um Like yeah, like, which is
Speaker 1: a sound but I've heard before. But I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that was reported as news cool. Uh. And and so
Speaker 1: to see an older woman and also women who have
Speaker 1: casual sex lives like we're to believe with the Glenn
Speaker 1: Close character, like even though it seems like she wants
Speaker 1: casual sex, every woman is actually like going for your
Speaker 1: seed no matter what, a like kind of a chump.
Speaker 1: In Michael Douglas's case, it's like, Nope, you can't be
Speaker 1: a woman over a certain age and not be like
Speaker 1: dying to reproduce with whoever. Right, she says something like
Speaker 1: I'm thirty six, this might be my last chance to
Speaker 1: have a baby, and right it just perpetuates this idea
Speaker 1: that like, you know, women be baby crazy, women be
Speaker 1: trying to trap a man with pregnancy. I forget which
Speaker 1: episode we talked about this on before, but there's like
Speaker 1: this male fear that like women are just like out
Speaker 1: to get pregnant by you so that she can trap
Speaker 1: you and her little talents and like keeping Yeah, like
Speaker 1: it's right. So have you seen the Stars Born remake?
Speaker 1: We all saw it together in the theater, So what
Speaker 1: what kind of cracked me up about that? Also having
Speaker 1: seen the first one, like I don't know how old
Speaker 1: I was, like seven, but this one in particular struck
Speaker 1: me as quite a remarkable presaging of me too and
Speaker 1: everything that's come since, because in fact, at the end,
Speaker 1: all I kept thinking was Okay, So in order for
Speaker 1: a woman to self actualized, to be professionally successful, a
Speaker 1: man literally has to die. Yeah. We did an episode
Speaker 1: about this movie, and I don't we didn't put it
Speaker 1: in those words, but I mean, yeah, but yeah, he
Speaker 1: had to yeah for her to have a fun show. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And there's a there's a British show called I Think
Speaker 1: the Bodyguard. Have you've seen this? A bodyguard? He's in
Speaker 1: charge of guarding the British Prime Minister who was a woman.
Speaker 1: And it also I don't want to ruin it for
Speaker 1: you since you haven't seen it, but it has a
Speaker 1: very similar lightebotif that there are women and that they
Speaker 1: have power, and that the man is repeatedly constrained, punished
Speaker 1: and destroyed by that fact, it seems like reparations. I know. Fair.
Speaker 1: There's a number of reasons why I would hope that
Speaker 1: this movie couldn't be made today in the same way,
Speaker 1: at least, like there's certainly plenty of masked misogyny in
Speaker 1: movies coming out now, but it's like, I feel like
Speaker 1: people at least have to take at least one or
Speaker 1: two precautions. But the way that we are conditioned by
Speaker 1: this movie to be like, oh no, the conflict is
Speaker 1: like woman versus woman where the wife you know, picks
Speaker 1: up on Alex totally takes it at face value. Oh well,
Speaker 1: my husband said she's nuts, so I'm just going to
Speaker 1: take that at face value whatever that even means, and
Speaker 1: threatened to kill her on the phone, which is right.
Speaker 1: And then the fact that Ann Archer's character kills glend
Speaker 1: Close at the end is very like okay, so domesticity
Speaker 1: when and you know, fidelity and standing by your man,
Speaker 1: regardless of what a chump loser he is, will always
Speaker 1: win the day and take down any woman in your
Speaker 1: path that will prevent you from that right. It's also,
Speaker 1: I think a really good example of um punching down
Speaker 1: being allowed to punch down. In the book that I've
Speaker 1: written about anger, there's a lot about this idea that,
Speaker 1: you know, people who don't have power or status compared
Speaker 1: to other people can't express their anger at their oppressors
Speaker 1: or at the people exerting power over them, so the
Speaker 1: anger gets diverted. And so in day to day life,
Speaker 1: it means maybe somebody goes to work and they get
Speaker 1: really angry and frustrated. Then then they go home and
Speaker 1: they yell at their children, right, or they get angry
Speaker 1: at someone in the line at the market or something.
Speaker 1: But I think it's a pretty good example over and
Speaker 1: over again when we see these stories where women's acceptable
Speaker 1: anger is aimed at other women, Because there are times
Speaker 1: when we can be acceptably angry. We can be angry
Speaker 1: at other women, we can be angry at our mother's
Speaker 1: and we can be angry at men with lower status,
Speaker 1: like men who are black or brown, right, But we
Speaker 1: can't be angry. The anger can't be aimed up, and
Speaker 1: it can't be aimed horizontally at men. We consider our equals.
Speaker 1: And that's a test I use when I look at
Speaker 1: these movies that exhibit women's anger, I'm like, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: how is anger allowed to be used? Because Beth is
Speaker 1: angry much more so at Alex than she is at
Speaker 1: her husband. There's a brief outburst where she's like, get
Speaker 1: out of here, but then in the next scene he's
Speaker 1: back at home. You know, they're like figuring this out together.
Speaker 1: And the issue that like Glenn Close was a temptress
Speaker 1: who per you know, Beth and Dan's version of the story,
Speaker 1: they're like, well, she tempted him to the point where
Speaker 1: he couldn't resist, and so she's right, and we just accept, like, well,
Speaker 1: men can't control themselves, so sure they should make more
Speaker 1: money than can. We talk about the endings debacle with
Speaker 1: this movie, Hello Anderson, Yeah, because the way the movie ends.
Speaker 1: Caitlin was re rewatching the end of the movie when
Speaker 1: I came in today, and there's so much about it
Speaker 1: that is confusing, and it's because that wasn't supposed to
Speaker 1: be the actual ending of the movie. So, and I
Speaker 1: remember reading about this a while ago, but like revisiting
Speaker 1: the journey of this movie ending the way it does,
Speaker 1: which is by Glenn Close like surprised, she isn't ound
Speaker 1: and she gets killed by the wife, and so, uh,
Speaker 1: women shouldn't have jobs and they should marry guy's name Dan. Sure, great,
Speaker 1: but uh, the way it was originally supposed to end,
Speaker 1: which is so well set up in the movie, Like,
Speaker 1: regardless of if you like the movie or not, in
Speaker 1: the movie is supposed to end like Madam Butterfly, which
Speaker 1: they recap in full in the movie, which is that
Speaker 1: runs the man leaves the woman, she kills herself in
Speaker 1: you know, despair, and that's how the movie ended. And
Speaker 1: that's filmed. It exists. You can basically frames him because
Speaker 1: she makes sure his fingerprints are on the knife that
Speaker 1: he picks up to almost you know, or to whatever
Speaker 1: happens that scene. Um, so his fingerprints are on the
Speaker 1: knife and then he gets arrested for her murder. That's yeah,
Speaker 1: that's how that was supposed to end. It didn't test
Speaker 1: well with audiences, so they rewrote it. They reshot it
Speaker 1: into the ending that we have now. And something I
Speaker 1: thought was interesting was that, like Michael Douglas was pro
Speaker 1: the ending that is in the movie, but the director
Speaker 1: andrean Line or Lynn which is it? Not sure? He
Speaker 1: directed a terrible version of Lolita anyways, other one with
Speaker 1: Jeremy Irons. One with Jeremy Irons. It's sick. It is.
Speaker 1: I mean, it is a story, not that shouldn't be
Speaker 1: filmed in the first place, correct, but the way he
Speaker 1: does it is disgusting. But anyways, the director and Glenn
Speaker 1: Close were so resistant to change it, but they were
Speaker 1: studio notes into oblivion, and that's why we have the
Speaker 1: very confusing ending that exists now. Right. Yeah, So, like
Speaker 1: Alex shows up in the bathroom she got in undetected
Speaker 1: into their house, is in the bathroom with Beth, has
Speaker 1: a knife and makes stabbing motions at Beth, but somehow
Speaker 1: doesn't like she's striking her with the knife in her hands. End,
Speaker 1: but she doesn't get stabbed somehow. I guess she's punching
Speaker 1: her with the fist that she's holding the knife in
Speaker 1: not clear. And then Dan has to come in and
Speaker 1: save her um and then Beth ultimately shoots Alex to death.
Speaker 1: So it's like right, the domestic figure triumphing over this
Speaker 1: woman that the movie has made you believe is evil,
Speaker 1: and like, I have to admit, I was like falling
Speaker 1: for it even as I was watching it this time,
Speaker 1: Like whenever he's trying to kill her, I was like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: she kidnapped a child, she like boiled a rabbit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like she's a bad person. I want her to be defeated.
Speaker 1: But then I was like, wait a minute, this is
Speaker 1: the movie manipulating me into thinking this, and I shouldn't
Speaker 1: be feeling this way because the way the movie handles
Speaker 1: or doesn't handle, like mental health and framing her is
Speaker 1: this unhinged woman without Yeah, I mean this this movie
Speaker 1: has no regard for a lot of things. But like
Speaker 1: meant that the use of like the crazy woman trope
Speaker 1: is so I mean, it's not just hack and tired,
Speaker 1: it's so oblivious to any any mental health issue. Um.
Speaker 1: In fact, according to the Amazon Prime trivia that pops
Speaker 1: up when you're watching it, there um boo to Amazon.
Speaker 1: But anyway. In a interview with CBS News, Glenn Close
Speaker 1: admitted that she would have rethought her portrayal of Alex
Speaker 1: Forest because of her fear that the film's popularity may
Speaker 1: have been a contributing factor toward mental health stigma. Close
Speaker 1: said that I would have read the script totally differently. Um,
Speaker 1: the astounding thing was that in my research for Fatal Attraction,
Speaker 1: I talked to to psychiatrists. Never did a mention of
Speaker 1: mental disorder come up. Never did the possibility of that
Speaker 1: come up. That, of course would have been the first
Speaker 1: thing I think of. Now, so she has, you know,
Speaker 1: in recent years. You know, it's what seems like expressing
Speaker 1: regrets on how this movie frames. So good good for
Speaker 1: Glenn because right the way I mean she attempts suicide
Speaker 1: and then she acts increasingly unstable and unhinged and violent
Speaker 1: and stoker ish, and and also like very clearly paints
Speaker 1: the suicide attempt is like, oh, it was strategic and
Speaker 1: she just wanted to reel you in and keep your
Speaker 1: attention and this is why someone would do that. And yeah,
Speaker 1: it's all you know, I think. I think it's interesting
Speaker 1: too that this movie it came out maybe six or
Speaker 1: seven years before Bill Clinton became president, and it was
Speaker 1: a real cultural moment, right, it was just huge. It
Speaker 1: was a global success. And then you know, maybe I
Speaker 1: don't know, not very long after that you had Bill
Speaker 1: Clinton and Monica Lewinsky had issues with Hillary Clinton, and
Speaker 1: you know whether she would stand by her man or not,
Speaker 1: And all of that feels like one long cultural nightmare moment, right,
Speaker 1: Like just the narrative of the film, the message it's sent,
Speaker 1: the idea that somehow women are in control of men's
Speaker 1: sexuality and that they can be absolved of responsibility for
Speaker 1: the havoc they've reached um and that indeed Bill Clinton
Speaker 1: abusing the power that he abused in the White House,
Speaker 1: it can can step back while the two women do
Speaker 1: get out publicly, right, And those feel very similar to
Speaker 1: me in terms of how the public deals with those
Speaker 1: issues or wants to deal with those issues or not.
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, it's just the concept of a
Speaker 1: home record seems to be very prevalent in this and
Speaker 1: then the years that come after the eighties, like movie.
Speaker 1: I struggle with Movie, A lot of movies from the
Speaker 1: eighties kind of for this reason, where there I mean,
Speaker 1: there's misogyny and cinema in every year since film has existed,
Speaker 1: but like the eighties stands up out to me, particularly
Speaker 1: because there were so many things in the seventies that
Speaker 1: were positive and moving women and what would appear to
Speaker 1: be you know, like more movies about women in the workplace.
Speaker 1: You've got normal ray, You've got like really cool, interesting
Speaker 1: movies like that. But then the eighties seems to kind
Speaker 1: of revel in setting it back and being like, oh, wait,
Speaker 1: we've accidentally made women too powerful. Now we've got to
Speaker 1: make them scary again and make like a woman, a
Speaker 1: competent woman, you know, somehow nullify that. Right. Yeah, But
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's interesting what we're seeing now
Speaker 1: though with witches, because there's resurgence of resurgence of which narratives, right,
Speaker 1: because we're talking about power and we're talking about anger.
Speaker 1: And the thing about which narratives always is that they've
Speaker 1: always implied that there is crazy irrationality involved and that
Speaker 1: the power women have is unnatural. It's never natural, right,
Speaker 1: it's extra natural, it's extraordinary, and it's not rational. The
Speaker 1: anger is never rational, the power is never rational. And
Speaker 1: that's that's the only thing that kind of really concerns
Speaker 1: me about all of these witchcraft narratives right now. That's
Speaker 1: so interesting, Yeah, because witchcraft narratives do tend to crop
Speaker 1: up in bulk. Yeah, for a while and I was
Speaker 1: I was thinking, I mean, this is sort of off
Speaker 1: topic a little bit, the like why is both like
Speaker 1: witchcraft and like Taro and astrology seems to have come
Speaker 1: back in a major way and like the past several years,
Speaker 1: and I think I sort of just was like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: this is probably like a societal response to dystopia where
Speaker 1: everyone wants to believe in magic again because we live
Speaker 1: in a very fashy world. But that makes a ton
Speaker 1: of sense of you know, even though women are allowed
Speaker 1: to be powerful in these narratives, it is couched in
Speaker 1: like but not every woman is like this and like
Speaker 1: you have and and it's it can be dangerous. It's
Speaker 1: dangerous and men are always at risk because the women
Speaker 1: have the power. And it's not normal. Right, That's the
Speaker 1: point about the women's power in Witchcraft. It's not normal. Right. Yeah, Wow,
Speaker 1: thank you for making me think that we've got to
Speaker 1: take a quick break, but we will be right back
Speaker 1: in a moment. Can we talk about the like pregnancy
Speaker 1: and abortion aspect of this where she tells him that
Speaker 1: she is pregnant, He gregnant. He says that he will
Speaker 1: help her take care of it. Basically, he'll pay for
Speaker 1: the abortion, and she's like, no, I I want to
Speaker 1: keep it. He says, well, don't I have any saying this,
Speaker 1: And part of me is like her body, her choice,
Speaker 1: but she says she's going to have the baby whether
Speaker 1: he wants to have anything to do with it or not,
Speaker 1: and we're like okay. But then a moment later, she's like, well,
Speaker 1: I was hoping that you didn't want to have something
Speaker 1: to do with it, And that's the whole like trapping
Speaker 1: him narrative of like I'm keeping the baby, said that
Speaker 1: hopefully you'll want to go out with me, my boyfriend
Speaker 1: and so, and then I guess he calls the doctor,
Speaker 1: her doctor, and the doctor confirms that she is pregnant,
Speaker 1: and I was like, wait, what about like doctor patient confidentiality?
Speaker 1: But then I looked up when Hippa was. I looked
Speaker 1: it up and Hippa didn't go into effect and tell nineties.
Speaker 1: So that's that. Yeah, So you could just be some
Speaker 1: random guy and be like, hey, is this lady pregnant?
Speaker 1: That's and that's so wow. Yeah, because this movie came
Speaker 1: out in what eighties? Seven? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Um. Now
Speaker 1: we live in a time where Amazon will tell you
Speaker 1: if you're pregnant before you know, so Jeff Bezos knows
Speaker 1: about every drop of the seaman on the planet. Um.
Speaker 1: And then a little bit later, the Dan character says like, look,
Speaker 1: whether or not you want to keep it, it's your choice.
Speaker 1: So I'm like, okay, pro choice, Dan Gallagher. Good for him. Um.
Speaker 1: But again, it just it, It does so much to
Speaker 1: reinforce this idea that so many men have, which is
Speaker 1: the Yep, women are crazy. You sleep with them and
Speaker 1: it's fun for a second, but then they're gonna go
Speaker 1: ape shift on you, and they're gonna trap you, and
Speaker 1: they're gonna you know, stock you and this and this
Speaker 1: and that. The thing that's most telling to me, and
Speaker 1: I guess why why I brought up the uh, the
Speaker 1: two endings in the first place, is that you know,
Speaker 1: at least two of them. And there was also god,
Speaker 1: I can't remember what her name is, let me pull
Speaker 1: it up, but the director Glenn Close and producer named
Speaker 1: Sherry Lansing, who was like a very powerful producer at
Speaker 1: this time. We're all against changing the ending. But the
Speaker 1: audience response and remember this is like Reagan era, so scary, right,
Speaker 1: but like the audience response was so against it that
Speaker 1: they literally had no choice. The movie couldn't get released
Speaker 1: unless the far different ending that watching it now, you're like, wait,
Speaker 1: what is happening here unless the thing that you know
Speaker 1: reinforce these very traditional oppressive values was included. And that
Speaker 1: was like the audience's decision. And so it's like you
Speaker 1: can't even blame it on an executive, which is always
Speaker 1: fun to do, right. It was just the cultural landscape
Speaker 1: at the time, and I think Sherry Lansing, I think
Speaker 1: one of her responses was, what do you mean it
Speaker 1: depicts professional women badly? I'm a professional woman, yes, which
Speaker 1: of course is irrelevant, like he really has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with how the movie depicts this one. Um, but
Speaker 1: that was her response in defense of producing the film,
Speaker 1: I think, right, which is like I mean that, I'm like,
Speaker 1: what do we make of that response? I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know. Sometimes it's it's like when a woman's response
Speaker 1: to oppressing other women is like, but it's chill because
Speaker 1: like women women and with it so it's cool like no, right,
Speaker 1: but um, I also interesting argument just real quickly wanted
Speaker 1: to touch on, as per almost every movie in existence,
Speaker 1: this is an extremely white movie. But a few different
Speaker 1: times a few of the white characters are like mocking
Speaker 1: specifically Japanese culture because like the very beginning there um
Speaker 1: at this book event for this samurai self help book,
Speaker 1: and Dan and his friend are like making fun of
Speaker 1: the Japanese people there, and then they do it again
Speaker 1: later on when they're like having their like couples dinner together,
Speaker 1: they're like just like imitating them in a very offensive way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it is not good in that yeah. And also it's
Speaker 1: interesting because it is this very specific stereotype of a crazy,
Speaker 1: angry woman that is tied to whiteness, to white women, right,
Speaker 1: Like we know the stereotypes for black women, they're just
Speaker 1: born angry, right, Angry black women is that stereotype, and
Speaker 1: even little girls who are are black in school are
Speaker 1: target that brush, right. And I think too we have
Speaker 1: like if you're Asian American or of Asian descent, you're sad,
Speaker 1: right of that whole trope, And if you're Hispanic, you're hot.
Speaker 1: But if you're white, you're crazy, like you know, you're
Speaker 1: literally insane. Um. And I think that depiction is one
Speaker 1: that really sticks in people's heads. I mean, they they
Speaker 1: refer still to Glenn Close as sort of mad expression
Speaker 1: and the boiling bunny, and I don't think you can
Speaker 1: say operated from her whiteness, you know, And there's different
Speaker 1: like variations on that is as like you know, cinema
Speaker 1: has gone on where I think that evolves into like
Speaker 1: the manic pixie dreamgirl trope that we see and things
Speaker 1: like that. But yeah, it is real. It's like upper
Speaker 1: class white woman equals crazy. I guess, well, I mean
Speaker 1: and and and the like professional white woman. Uh is,
Speaker 1: like it's like peak demonization here. And there's so many
Speaker 1: variants of that theme in the eighties of like mean
Speaker 1: that that trickles like even into now. Uh of like
Speaker 1: you know, a woman who is where you know, wearing
Speaker 1: any manner of shoulder pad is an evil person and
Speaker 1: is going to ruin your life. Yeah, so like the
Speaker 1: demonization of women in the workplace, which unfortunately because the
Speaker 1: world white women were sort of the first women welcomed
Speaker 1: into the higher echelons of the workplace. It's yes. Is
Speaker 1: there anything else that anyone wants to say about the
Speaker 1: the film? Well, I have a question for you, please.
Speaker 1: Do you think it would be any different if the
Speaker 1: original ending were run now? If they if this were
Speaker 1: re released as far as I can tell the way
Speaker 1: the yeah, the way the alternate ending was described to me,
Speaker 1: I don't like that ending any better because I don't
Speaker 1: like this movie. I don't think like I I think
Speaker 1: it is an effective thriller because there are moments when
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm scared, but like because of the way
Speaker 1: the movie handles and or mishandles so many things and
Speaker 1: perpetuates all these negative, you know, tropes and stereotypes about
Speaker 1: you know, kind of specific types of women and stuff
Speaker 1: like that and demonizes, you know, female sexuality. And because
Speaker 1: there's a moment where Alex is something like I won't
Speaker 1: allow you to treat me like some slet you can
Speaker 1: bang a couple of times and then throwing the garbage.
Speaker 1: So on one hand, like her anger is like justified
Speaker 1: because she's like, you know, you knew what you were doing,
Speaker 1: and then you're gonna dump me because you're going back
Speaker 1: to your wife, and the movie like equivocates like that
Speaker 1: rational statement with her being exactly exactly, so it just
Speaker 1: it like goes towards taking things in the right direction
Speaker 1: a couple of times, but then immediately like backtracks on them.
Speaker 1: So to answer your question, I don't think it would
Speaker 1: have been that differently, because that ending is her committing
Speaker 1: suicide and then like framing him from beyond the grave,
Speaker 1: and that's just as unhinged as everything else that happens. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree, I don't. I don't think it's a better
Speaker 1: I think, like story wise, it's an ending that makes
Speaker 1: more sense with the very like deeply troubled story that's
Speaker 1: been set up, so strictly for story it makes more sense.
Speaker 1: But I think that, like, especially where we already view
Speaker 1: her make a suicide attempt in front of him, that
Speaker 1: she follows through on it at the end, I don't like.
Speaker 1: I don't know where that's besides mirroring Madam Butterfly. I
Speaker 1: don't know what that does. I don't know. Just how
Speaker 1: do you feel about it? Right? Well, the thing that
Speaker 1: occurred to me with the the ending that was eliminated
Speaker 1: actually was it's funny to me that you said been
Speaker 1: closely commented on mental illness, because had she done that,
Speaker 1: I think you would have been more likely to leave
Speaker 1: with the feeling that she had a mental illness, because
Speaker 1: you know, you don't get rebuffed and then try and
Speaker 1: kill yourself and then kill yourself. That's not the way
Speaker 1: that works, um, and and so it actually would have
Speaker 1: veered away from the she's just a crazy woman narrative
Speaker 1: and the use of crazy in that very negative sense
Speaker 1: to wow, you know, something was really wrong with this
Speaker 1: person she didn't help, which is a totally different thing.
Speaker 1: Nobody wanted to help Glenn Close, you know, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess that would end up eliciting a like sympathy,
Speaker 1: And well, I don't I don't necessarily think so, but
Speaker 1: I do think it was. It was different because you'd
Speaker 1: end up with a different feeling, right, Like, it's just
Speaker 1: different than that hyper violent catfighting that we got. But
Speaker 1: it's all within the parameters, as you say, of the
Speaker 1: fact that she's an unhandied woman, and that's what we're
Speaker 1: dealing with. Yeah. I I'm still trying to process the
Speaker 1: events of this movie after having rewatched it, and and
Speaker 1: I I can't do it. It's very easily. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: I mean, it's so ingrained into like people who haven't
Speaker 1: seen this movie are familiar with this, with the basics
Speaker 1: of what this movie did, and and it's like I've
Speaker 1: literally heard you know, men site this character as a
Speaker 1: reason to not trust a certain type of woman. Oh, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: that's true. Glenn Close says she said in two thousand
Speaker 1: and eight that men still come up to her and
Speaker 1: say that her character scared the ship out of them,
Speaker 1: or that like her character saved their marriage, which liked.
Speaker 1: I don't know, and we have really been doing a
Speaker 1: lot better since. Yeah, Or that they were like inspired
Speaker 1: to either tell or not tell of their wives of
Speaker 1: their infidelity. I don't know. I can't even imagine what
Speaker 1: that would look like. But Uma is actually, um, well,
Speaker 1: we're just about a time, so let's discuss whether or
Speaker 1: not this movie passes the Bechdel test. It does a
Speaker 1: couple of times, um so so thinly. But there is
Speaker 1: a moment between the daughter Ellen and her babysitter, who
Speaker 1: gets named as Christine, and it's played by uh. They
Speaker 1: say like, hey Christine, Hey Ellen, how you doing. I'm good.
Speaker 1: Where's your mom? She's in the bathroom. I got your present.
Speaker 1: I like it. Okay, let's go find her best role. Yes,
Speaker 1: so that passes. Um. It passes between Beth and Alex whenever, um,
Speaker 1: Alex comes into their apartment and they're talking about the apartment,
Speaker 1: they're talking about the cleaning lady. So like that's mostly happens.
Speaker 1: You know, you hear that dialogue kind of like happing
Speaker 1: off screen, but um, it's there. It passes. Uh, And
Speaker 1: then there's a fun moment where Beth picks up the
Speaker 1: phone and she says, this is Beth Gallagher. If you
Speaker 1: ever come near my family again, I will kill you. You
Speaker 1: You understand so. But but Alex doesn't respond, So that
Speaker 1: does not it's a feminist text. So let's write it
Speaker 1: now on our nipple scales zero to five nipples. Based
Speaker 1: on his portrayal of women. Um, it demonizes everything about
Speaker 1: an empowered woman, basically a woman who's in control of
Speaker 1: her sexuality, a career woman, you know, a woman who
Speaker 1: wants to have a baby, Like just everything about it is.
Speaker 1: She's like, well she's crazy and she's you know, trying
Speaker 1: to trap him. So I'm going to give it zero nipples.
Speaker 1: I think I'm also going to give it zero for
Speaker 1: all the reasons to describe. Yeah, I just I can't
Speaker 1: stand Reagan era movies. Um, just blanket statement anything that
Speaker 1: came out during his presidency. It tends to be regressive, capitalistic,
Speaker 1: and like just annoying to watch. Um, I mean I
Speaker 1: love that. It makes me so angry. And just I
Speaker 1: think that I just him on team Glenn Close forever.
Speaker 1: But it makes me angry the way that Glenn Close,
Speaker 1: who was forty when this movie came out. Um, the
Speaker 1: way she was able to get a leading role was
Speaker 1: to play a character like this, Like there were not
Speaker 1: that many options for women, you know, even over thirty five, uh,
Speaker 1: playing leading roles at this time because she was out
Speaker 1: of the on genew zone and so what she was
Speaker 1: relegated to her mother roles or this new opportunity of
Speaker 1: being someone who's completely unhinged, and this was the way
Speaker 1: for her to get a leading role. You know, that's like,
Speaker 1: what what kind of option is that? Sure? Zero nets,
Speaker 1: so zero nipples across the board. Cool? Well, Sarria, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today. Oh my pleasure.
Speaker 1: That was really fun. I'm so sorry that I have
Speaker 1: to stop right now. Oh no, that's quite all right.
Speaker 1: Is there anything you would like to to plug? Where
Speaker 1: can people follow you online? Oh? Um? So they can
Speaker 1: follow me on Twitter at s c H E. M
Speaker 1: A L. Y. Whenever I publish anything, I usually share
Speaker 1: it there or also in Facebook. And also I am
Speaker 1: the director of Initiative of the Women's Media center called
Speaker 1: The Speech Project, which focuses on women's signific and political participation,
Speaker 1: and so it's always easy to find me there too
Speaker 1: Awesome and read us Rice book Rage Becomes Her The
Speaker 1: Power of Women's Anger. You can follow us the Bechtel
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Speaker 1: single month. Oh, I just felt it. I guess we
Speaker 1: did talk about the stars born in this episode, So
Speaker 1: we did, and I didn't even bring it up. I
Speaker 1: know I wrote it up. So they're well, everyone, thank
Speaker 1: you for listening, love you, love you, and we'll see
Speaker 1: you next time. Bye bye,