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Speaker 1: On the beck Doldcast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and

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Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef invest

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Speaker 1: start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hi, welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie Lofton, my

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Speaker 1: name is Caitlin Durante. This is our podcast about the

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Speaker 1: portrayal of women in film. Oh, I said film today? Wow?

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Speaker 1: Yeah it is you're you are right. We are the

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Speaker 1: esteemed podcasts that we are. Do you know it's a

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Speaker 1: fun fact about us. We were not in the top

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Speaker 1: two d podcasts of the year. Bummer. I know. We'll

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Speaker 1: tell your friends about us and get us into the

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Speaker 1: top two hundred people. Jeez, women, it's true and that's

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Speaker 1: why we have to do this podcast. UM. We base

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Speaker 1: it loosely on the Bechtel Test. We use that as

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Speaker 1: our jumping off point to initiate a bigger conversation about

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Speaker 1: representation and portrayals of women in film. Film film. We're

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Speaker 1: film podcast. We're assholes now. Sorry, we're pretentious a sorry.

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Speaker 1: And if you don't know what the Becktel test is,

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Speaker 1: it is a media media test created by Alison Bechtel,

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Speaker 1: and it requires that a film have flim Flim have

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Speaker 1: two female identifying characters who are named. They must speak

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Speaker 1: to each other, and their conversation cannot be about a man,

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Speaker 1: and by our standards, it has to be at least

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Speaker 1: a two line exchange. You think it'd be easy, but

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Speaker 1: it's films actually are not film good are bad, which

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Speaker 1: is why we do this podcast because we hate movies.

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Speaker 1: Really quick thing that will not pass the Becktel test.

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Speaker 1: But I feel compelled to tell you because I was socked. Also,

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Speaker 1: I have a male dog now, which I know is upsetting,

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Speaker 1: but I am training him to be you know an ally.

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Speaker 1: He started humping my leg and I was like, honey,

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Speaker 1: did not consent. I will consent, you may hump my leg.

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Speaker 1: And then he continued and like keeps learning. Uh. So

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Speaker 1: I was walking my dog yesterday because I do that now,

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Speaker 1: and I was cat called from wait for it, a

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Speaker 1: lime scooter. Someone passed me on a live scooter was

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Speaker 1: like you're beautiful, like, oh my god. It was barely

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Speaker 1: moving faster than I was, and he was just like

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Speaker 1: you're beautiful, like fast me and my doge and it

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Speaker 1: was unbelievable Okay, a couple of questions. One, if you

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Speaker 1: are cat called when you're with a dog, does that

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Speaker 1: mean you're being dog called? Question number two, how many

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Speaker 1: nipples does it cat call have? Zero? Zero? Well, I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry that that happened to you. I'm also sorry, but

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Speaker 1: I'm I almost wonderful with history making. Was that the

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Speaker 1: first time that someone had had the goal I feel

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Speaker 1: their way back to presumably their grandma's house. Uh so

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Speaker 1: that's the update on me dog cat called on a

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Speaker 1: lime scooter. We're caught up. Wow, proud of you. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: So the movie we're talking about, the movie today is

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Speaker 1: Fatal Attraction, and let's just get right into it. Let's

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Speaker 1: introduce her guests, let's do it. She is the author

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Speaker 1: of Rage Becomes Her, the power of women's anger. So,

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Speaker 1: Riya Somali, thanks for having me today. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being here. Yeah, we're so psyched to talk about this. Uh,

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Speaker 1: this this very bizarre movie with you. Yes, So what

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Speaker 1: is your history your relationship with this movie? So, Riah,

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Speaker 1: I really do associate this movie with like peak SU's

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Speaker 1: Fluti backlash. That's my first association with it. I mean

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Speaker 1: I remember when it came out. I remember all the

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Speaker 1: discussion around it. I remember variations on its themes over

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Speaker 1: the years. That's that's how I think of it. When

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Speaker 1: was the first time you saw it? Oh, I saw

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Speaker 1: it in the theaters when it came out. It seems like,

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Speaker 1: along with everyone else in the entire world at that time, Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, it was so notable. I mean, there were

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Speaker 1: women gaining power, and that's always a frightening specter, and

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Speaker 1: so these depictions tend to have a lot of resonance. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: well we'll talk about it. Um, Jamie Weer, is your

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Speaker 1: history in relationship with the movie? Um? I have seen

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Speaker 1: this movie a couple of times. I think I saw

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Speaker 1: it for the first time in college as a part

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Speaker 1: of probably the worst film class I ever talk. I

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Speaker 1: think that the gender dynamics in this movie were completely

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Speaker 1: not discussed in the class. It was just like, this

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Speaker 1: is how you write a thriller, this is what a

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Speaker 1: good thriller is. And I remember being the first time.

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Speaker 1: I was not the appropriate amount of horrified, I think

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Speaker 1: because I was just like eighteen and didn't know anything

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Speaker 1: about anything yet. Um. But I've seen it a few

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Speaker 1: times since, and with with each passing viewing, there's like

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Speaker 1: new stuff you see or have learned in the intermittent time,

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Speaker 1: where I'm just like Jesus, it's just the same. I

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Speaker 1: saw it for the first time in college. To this

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Speaker 1: was like when I was, like, you know, a young

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Speaker 1: film student, hungry to consume all of the media that

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Speaker 1: I could, and I knew about this movie. I already

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Speaker 1: knew about the boiling bunny scene, so like, that's what

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Speaker 1: I knew going into it. I saw it just that

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Speaker 1: one time and then didn't revisit it until we were

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Speaker 1: prepping for this episode. But um, yeah, it's uh, it's

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Speaker 1: a wild this is what this is one of my

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Speaker 1: mom's favorite movies. Oh Jill, Yeah, she's I mean, and

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Speaker 1: she was it's weird because she was about my age

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Speaker 1: when this movie came out, and she was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's weird. But her her opinions on it, she seems

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Speaker 1: to both be aware of the issues but still really

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Speaker 1: loves the movie. Where her whole thing was she was like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Michael Douglas is so horrible. I'm not gonna like fall

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Speaker 1: for like him being the good guy, but I love

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Speaker 1: the movie and I love when Glenn Close yells. I

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Speaker 1: was like, that's a valid, sure, wild, okay, So should

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Speaker 1: I should I do the recap? Yeah? Yeah, okay. So

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Speaker 1: so we meet Dan Gallagher played by Michael Douglas. He

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Speaker 1: is sick lawyer, sick lawyer living in New York City.

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Speaker 1: He has a family um, his wife, his wife Beth,

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Speaker 1: and they have a young daughter, Ellen with God I

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Speaker 1: love the daughter. Um. So she's cute and the baldest

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Speaker 1: woman in charge. She is, Yes, she's got she's got

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Speaker 1: a very short haircut. Um. So he and his wife

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Speaker 1: go to this work function and that's where he meets

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Speaker 1: Alex Forrest. That's Glenn Close's character, who, upon meeting her,

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Speaker 1: seems very normal, little flirtatious, and she was recently brought

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Speaker 1: on to work as an associate editor at the publishing

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Speaker 1: company that his law firm represents. I think I have

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Speaker 1: all of that right. So Beth, Dan's wife, goes out

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Speaker 1: of town for a few days. His wife and Dan

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Speaker 1: and Alex cross paths again because they're like working in

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Speaker 1: the same vicinity, and they are in a meeting together

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Speaker 1: and then it's raining, so they're like, oh, we can't

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Speaker 1: be outside, let's get a drink together. Such a tenuous

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Speaker 1: it's wet, like you live here. He waits to open

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Speaker 1: his umbrella until after he's already standing in the rain.

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Speaker 1: It's I think this whole movie could have been avoided

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Speaker 1: if he just like been better and umbrella. Yeah there,

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Speaker 1: there's God. It's like it's raining, so I'm horny, okay,

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Speaker 1: the end of first act, so they get a drink together.

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Speaker 1: Then things escalate from there. They wind up at one

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Speaker 1: of their apartments. They frick. They only say they have

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Speaker 1: sex for those of you who don't know what freaking

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Speaker 1: means um. And then they spent a couple of days together,

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Speaker 1: and I wrote down quital bliss and I regret writing that,

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Speaker 1: but that is what I wrote. You know, I forgot

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Speaker 1: that we only say frick, okay, bricklisit freaking um. At

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Speaker 1: the end of these couple of days, he's like, look,

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Speaker 1: I gotta go, and we can't see each other again

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Speaker 1: because I have a his wife who is in the

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Speaker 1: country trying to further domesticize him the movie, whe you believe,

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Speaker 1: by trying to find a house for him to commute

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Speaker 1: into the city and have a night or whatever, something

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Speaker 1: about school, bourbons and grandparents. This upsets Alex that she's

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Speaker 1: told that he doesn't want to see her again, and

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Speaker 1: she gets a little aggressive and she's yelling at him

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Speaker 1: and she's kicking him. Uh. And then as he's about

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Speaker 1: to leave, it's revealed that she has cut her wrists

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Speaker 1: in a suicide attempt. Um. So he stays with her

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Speaker 1: for a little longer and then she calms down and

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Speaker 1: he's like, Okay, everything's good here, see you never. And

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Speaker 1: then Beth and Ellen come back home and it seems

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Speaker 1: like everything is back to normal. They're like considering buying

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Speaker 1: this house. Um, they're freaking, they're freaking. His daughter is

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Speaker 1: doing magic tricks at him. But then Alex Forest shows

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Speaker 1: up at Dan's office and she apologizes and she's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I was going through a rough time. I was in

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Speaker 1: a crisis. Why don't you go to the opera with

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Speaker 1: me as a peace offering? But he declines, doesn't think

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Speaker 1: it's a good idea. There's a whole overture of Madam

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Speaker 1: Butterfly and how which this becomes important with the ending

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Speaker 1: the movie if not Use, where the female protagonist kills

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Speaker 1: herself at the end. Put that um, and it seems

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Speaker 1: like Alex understands. He says, you know, that's not a

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Speaker 1: good idea, I'm a married man, we shouldn't see each

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Speaker 1: other again, and she's like okay, cool, and but then

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Speaker 1: we cut to her at home and she's like crying.

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Speaker 1: She's turning a lamp on and off over and over again.

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Speaker 1: She's not doing that. Scene is insanely long. Yeah, sorry,

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Speaker 1: that's just a thought. Uh. And then she starts like

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Speaker 1: calling his office and calling his home and he does

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Speaker 1: agree to meet up with her to be like hey,

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Speaker 1: stop bothering me, it's over. But then she's like I

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Speaker 1: love you, and also I'm pregnant. Gregnant, sorry, and she

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Speaker 1: says she wants to keep the baby. So then she

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Speaker 1: shows up at his apartment and is hanging out with

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Speaker 1: his wife. His wife because she feigns an interest in

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Speaker 1: buying the apartment that they are selling because they're moving

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Speaker 1: into this new house, and she gets like his he

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Speaker 1: had like unlisted his number. She gets his new number,

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Speaker 1: and she's like, hey, I'm going to have this baby,

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Speaker 1: and Alex tretends to tell Beth. He's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you if you're not a part of this, like

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you you're his wife. Um, and then

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Speaker 1: it seems like that might have worked and then they

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Speaker 1: move into their new house. He gets he gets his

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Speaker 1: daughter a pet rabbit um. But then Alex pours acid.

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Speaker 1: I think some does something to his car. It's I

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Speaker 1: think it was acid. Yeah, she pours acid on his car. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And then she sends him an audio message on tape,

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Speaker 1: which is basically a podcast. She's just like, hey, you stuck,

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Speaker 1: and she uses some homophobic slurs here she does. Dan

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Speaker 1: goes to the police and he's like, hey, can something

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Speaker 1: be done about this? But they are not helpful. Beth

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Speaker 1: comes home. There's a pot boiling on the stove. She

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Speaker 1: takes a let off of it, and it is their daughter,

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Speaker 1: Ellen's Bonnie rabbit boiling on the stove, and she's like

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Speaker 1: what the hell. Dan is like, oops, I got to

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Speaker 1: tell you something had an affair. She's pregnant. She and

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Speaker 1: she's boiling our pets. She's pregnant and crazy. It's the implication.

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Speaker 1: And uh, Dan's his wife is a very traditional his wife. Yes,

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Speaker 1: he says, I'm mad, I'm not get out of here.

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Speaker 1: But then in the next scene there it's together temporary separation,

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Speaker 1: and Beth tells Alex that she will kill her if

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Speaker 1: she comes near her family again. But then Alex kidnaps

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Speaker 1: their daughter Ellen. Also, Arita believe that like the teachers

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Speaker 1: at Ellen's school just had no idea what the mom

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Speaker 1: looked like, because they're like, no, she got picked up already, right.

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Speaker 1: I thought that we would maybe when we saw Alex again,

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Speaker 1: she would have had like maybe dyed her hair to

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Speaker 1: make her look like Beth, but that didn't happen. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: they just like let any random woman pick up the

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Speaker 1: children from this school. I think she brings Ellen to

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Speaker 1: what like Coney Island or something, ride a roller coaster,

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Speaker 1: and Beth is driving around looking for Ellen, and she

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Speaker 1: gets into a car accident. Um, but Alex drops off

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Speaker 1: the little girl and returns her home safely. So now

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Speaker 1: Dan goes after Alex. There's a big fight. He strangles

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Speaker 1: her for a little bit, um, she tries to stab him,

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Speaker 1: and then they calmed down. He leaves, and then when

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Speaker 1: Beth's taking a bath, probably like I don't know, the

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Speaker 1: next day or something like that, Alex shows up in

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Speaker 1: the bathroom and she tries to kill Beth. Dan comes

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Speaker 1: running in drowns her, we think, but then there's like

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Speaker 1: one last jump scare, and then Beth shoots her Sorry,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like I'm crying, but I just I'm choking

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Speaker 1: on something. So anyway, it's just like it's so sad.

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Speaker 1: I love Glenn Close. She's of my favorite actresses. If

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Speaker 1: you haven't seen Damages, you should see it. Yeah. Um

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Speaker 1: So anyway, so that's the story. Let's take a break

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Speaker 1: for a second and then come right back. Where to begin?

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Speaker 1: I where to begin? Um? Sorry? What are your kind

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Speaker 1: of initial thoughts with? Well, you know, it's interesting, Um.

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Speaker 1: I think just around when that movie came out, I

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Speaker 1: had just started working, and there was just so much

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Speaker 1: conversation about what it meant to have a working woman

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Speaker 1: depicted as incapable of personal happiness and indeed unhinged and

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Speaker 1: defeated by a happy wife at home. Right like that,

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Speaker 1: that was the whole conversation. But it was just pretty stark.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was really remarkable to see the very

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Speaker 1: successful trajectory of this movie that managed to make this

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Speaker 1: sort of scumbag husband somehow seems sympathetic in light of

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Speaker 1: the unhinged woman. It's also funny to me because I

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Speaker 1: just also remember, I just remember that the crazier she got,

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Speaker 1: the curlier here. God, that's what happened. I remember thinking,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for that, like just a bonus on top, right,

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Speaker 1: curly haired people, Yeah, well, you know they've got to

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Speaker 1: be crazy, I think, right, And so you know, I

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Speaker 1: think it's a morality tale, and it's a pretty blunt,

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Speaker 1: forced instrument. It kind of takes a sledgehammer to the

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Speaker 1: idea that here's a working woman who's very competent, who's

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Speaker 1: you know, has a sex life that's not related to reproduction. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: how she kills small mammals. It doesn't really get more

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Speaker 1: blunt than that, right, So yeah, I've always I've always

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Speaker 1: taken its success as kind of a symbolic step, like

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Speaker 1: a clinging of the culture. For sure. I feel like

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Speaker 1: this is a movie where like a lot of men

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Speaker 1: have seen and have used as an excuse to be like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: women are crazy. Haven't you seen satal attraction story written

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Speaker 1: and directed? That's right? And it's like the My Crazy

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Speaker 1: Ex Girlfriend the television show. There's this idea that crazy

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Speaker 1: one stalk men and that maybe killed them, but they

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Speaker 1: certainly set out to destroy their lives. And well, first

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Speaker 1: of all, there are so many more women who are

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Speaker 1: subjected to stalking thing one right, Right, Um. And thing

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Speaker 1: two is it's very rarely the case that women actually

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Speaker 1: have more economic power, more status, more credibility as leverage

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Speaker 1: over men that they choose to target for violence. You know,

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Speaker 1: well that that was one of the main things that

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Speaker 1: stuck out to me about this movie where we've done

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Speaker 1: so many movies on this podcast that feature the reverse

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Speaker 1: stalking of a male character pursuing a female character, and

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Speaker 1: it is very, very rarely. I don't think in any

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Speaker 1: movie we've ever done anyways that stocking tendencies are framed

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Speaker 1: as scary or unhealthy when it's done from a man

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Speaker 1: to a woman. Most of the movies that the stocking

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Speaker 1: trope from a man towards a woman are rom coms

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Speaker 1: that are like classic romantic It's like, Wow, look how

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Speaker 1: much he loves her. He's following her exactly and it's

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Speaker 1: wearing her down until she's like, Yep, we're in love

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Speaker 1: and that's true love. Where these have you seen? Unforgettable? No? No,

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Speaker 1: that just recently came out. I think, Um, who is

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Speaker 1: in that Unforgettable? It's a it's a similar situation where

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Speaker 1: there's a actually a new wife and the ex wife

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Speaker 1: is Katherine Hagel I believe and she she turns out

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Speaker 1: to be really badge crazy, and Rosario Dawson plays the

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Speaker 1: new wife. I don't even know if it went to theaters.

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Speaker 1: I saw her in an airplane, honest, but but I

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Speaker 1: did explicitly watch it because because I was thinking of

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Speaker 1: Fatal Attraction, I was like, Okay, well you know this

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Speaker 1: many years later, what does this look like? Um? And again,

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Speaker 1: actually there is this sort of cold professional woman in

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Speaker 1: relief to the sort of softer mellower literary arts magazine person.

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Speaker 1: And one is crazy and and one is not. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's I mean the like the Fatal Attraction model. I

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Speaker 1: feel like it's been recycled so many times, and like,

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Speaker 1: based on the permutations of it, I've seen rarely strays

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Speaker 1: from the format no matter what year it's coming out

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Speaker 1: in where our producer Sophie was bringing up before hid

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Speaker 1: a movie I remember seeing in high school was Obsessed,

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Speaker 1: which is basically Fatal Attraction, but Beyonce plays the good

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Speaker 1: wife and it's the same story but like just a

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Speaker 1: worse made movie. It's the same story. And another movie

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Speaker 1: that we've covered, Single White Female, which came out a

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Speaker 1: few years after Fatal Attraction, but it's you know, about

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Speaker 1: this woman who targets another woman and basically you know,

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Speaker 1: copies her life and goes after her boyfriend and just

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Speaker 1: like similar unranged, scary, stalker ish behavior. And I don't

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Speaker 1: know if filmmakers of this time were like, yeah, we

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Speaker 1: gotta like push the bar and like what if we

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Speaker 1: saw a story about a woman stoker And like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know what they were thinking, but not to say that.

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Speaker 1: And there's a lot of that Madonna whore dichotomy, you know,

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Speaker 1: the kind of good woman bad woman cat fight and

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Speaker 1: women having to stay in their sphere, which is considered

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Speaker 1: exhibiting power within the context of relationships to men. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think really the more power women have in the

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Speaker 1: culture institutionally, the more these narratives kept putting them back

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Speaker 1: into these domestic arenas where they could do get out.

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Speaker 1: It's it's interesting because I feel like this, this movie

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Speaker 1: in particular, is kind of firing on all cylinders in

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Speaker 1: terms of putting women back in their place and making

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Speaker 1: a female character who on paper seems to be pretty

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Speaker 1: progressive and empowered and turning her into this monster. Because

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Speaker 1: there's a professional element to this where Glenn Close is

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Speaker 1: very successful in her chosen field, and that is demonized

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Speaker 1: against her. She's unmarried, that is demonized against her. And uh,

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Speaker 1: she is older and and that is held against her too,

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Speaker 1: which I thought was especially strange in this movie where

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Speaker 1: I was just trying to catch up on the context

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Speaker 1: of when this movie came out, and there was that

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Speaker 1: Newsweek story that I've heard reference before, But there was

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Speaker 1: a story that came out in eight six that was

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Speaker 1: like women over forty are more likely to get killed

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Speaker 1: by terrorists than married. Um Like yeah, like, which is

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Speaker 1: a sound but I've heard before. But I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that was reported as news cool. Uh. And and so

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Speaker 1: to see an older woman and also women who have

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Speaker 1: casual sex lives like we're to believe with the Glenn

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Speaker 1: Close character, like even though it seems like she wants

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Speaker 1: casual sex, every woman is actually like going for your

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Speaker 1: seed no matter what, a like kind of a chump.

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Speaker 1: In Michael Douglas's case, it's like, Nope, you can't be

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Speaker 1: a woman over a certain age and not be like

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Speaker 1: dying to reproduce with whoever. Right, she says something like

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Speaker 1: I'm thirty six, this might be my last chance to

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Speaker 1: have a baby, and right it just perpetuates this idea

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Speaker 1: that like, you know, women be baby crazy, women be

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Speaker 1: trying to trap a man with pregnancy. I forget which

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Speaker 1: episode we talked about this on before, but there's like

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Speaker 1: this male fear that like women are just like out

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Speaker 1: to get pregnant by you so that she can trap

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Speaker 1: you and her little talents and like keeping Yeah, like

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Speaker 1: it's right. So have you seen the Stars Born remake?

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Speaker 1: We all saw it together in the theater, So what

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Speaker 1: what kind of cracked me up about that? Also having

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Speaker 1: seen the first one, like I don't know how old

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Speaker 1: I was, like seven, but this one in particular struck

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Speaker 1: me as quite a remarkable presaging of me too and

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Speaker 1: everything that's come since, because in fact, at the end,

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Speaker 1: all I kept thinking was Okay, So in order for

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Speaker 1: a woman to self actualized, to be professionally successful, a

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Speaker 1: man literally has to die. Yeah. We did an episode

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Speaker 1: about this movie, and I don't we didn't put it

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Speaker 1: in those words, but I mean, yeah, but yeah, he

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Speaker 1: had to yeah for her to have a fun show. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And there's a there's a British show called I Think

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Speaker 1: the Bodyguard. Have you've seen this? A bodyguard? He's in

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Speaker 1: charge of guarding the British Prime Minister who was a woman.

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Speaker 1: And it also I don't want to ruin it for

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Speaker 1: you since you haven't seen it, but it has a

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Speaker 1: very similar lightebotif that there are women and that they

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Speaker 1: have power, and that the man is repeatedly constrained, punished

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Speaker 1: and destroyed by that fact, it seems like reparations. I know. Fair.

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Speaker 1: There's a number of reasons why I would hope that

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Speaker 1: this movie couldn't be made today in the same way,

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Speaker 1: at least, like there's certainly plenty of masked misogyny in

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Speaker 1: movies coming out now, but it's like, I feel like

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Speaker 1: people at least have to take at least one or

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Speaker 1: two precautions. But the way that we are conditioned by

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Speaker 1: this movie to be like, oh no, the conflict is

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Speaker 1: like woman versus woman where the wife you know, picks

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Speaker 1: up on Alex totally takes it at face value. Oh well,

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Speaker 1: my husband said she's nuts, so I'm just going to

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Speaker 1: take that at face value whatever that even means, and

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Speaker 1: threatened to kill her on the phone, which is right.

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Speaker 1: And then the fact that Ann Archer's character kills glend

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Speaker 1: Close at the end is very like okay, so domesticity

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Speaker 1: when and you know, fidelity and standing by your man,

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Speaker 1: regardless of what a chump loser he is, will always

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Speaker 1: win the day and take down any woman in your

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Speaker 1: path that will prevent you from that right. It's also,

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Speaker 1: I think a really good example of um punching down

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Speaker 1: being allowed to punch down. In the book that I've

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Speaker 1: written about anger, there's a lot about this idea that,

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Speaker 1: you know, people who don't have power or status compared

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Speaker 1: to other people can't express their anger at their oppressors

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Speaker 1: or at the people exerting power over them, so the

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Speaker 1: anger gets diverted. And so in day to day life,

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Speaker 1: it means maybe somebody goes to work and they get

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Speaker 1: really angry and frustrated. Then then they go home and

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Speaker 1: they yell at their children, right, or they get angry

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Speaker 1: at someone in the line at the market or something.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's a pretty good example over and

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Speaker 1: over again when we see these stories where women's acceptable

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Speaker 1: anger is aimed at other women, Because there are times

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Speaker 1: when we can be acceptably angry. We can be angry

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Speaker 1: at other women, we can be angry at our mother's

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Speaker 1: and we can be angry at men with lower status,

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Speaker 1: like men who are black or brown, right, But we

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Speaker 1: can't be angry. The anger can't be aimed up, and

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Speaker 1: it can't be aimed horizontally at men. We consider our equals.

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Speaker 1: And that's a test I use when I look at

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Speaker 1: these movies that exhibit women's anger, I'm like, Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: how is anger allowed to be used? Because Beth is

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Speaker 1: angry much more so at Alex than she is at

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Speaker 1: her husband. There's a brief outburst where she's like, get

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Speaker 1: out of here, but then in the next scene he's

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Speaker 1: back at home. You know, they're like figuring this out together.

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Speaker 1: And the issue that like Glenn Close was a temptress

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Speaker 1: who per you know, Beth and Dan's version of the story,

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Speaker 1: they're like, well, she tempted him to the point where

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Speaker 1: he couldn't resist, and so she's right, and we just accept, like, well,

422
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 1: men can't control themselves, so sure they should make more

423
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: money than can. We talk about the endings debacle with

424
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: this movie, Hello Anderson, Yeah, because the way the movie ends.

425
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: Caitlin was re rewatching the end of the movie when

426
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 1: I came in today, and there's so much about it

427
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: that is confusing, and it's because that wasn't supposed to

428
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 1: be the actual ending of the movie. So, and I

429
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 1: remember reading about this a while ago, but like revisiting

430
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: the journey of this movie ending the way it does,

431
00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: which is by Glenn Close like surprised, she isn't ound

432
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 1: and she gets killed by the wife, and so, uh,

433
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 1: women shouldn't have jobs and they should marry guy's name Dan. Sure, great,

434
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: but uh, the way it was originally supposed to end,

435
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: which is so well set up in the movie, Like,

436
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: regardless of if you like the movie or not, in

437
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 1: the movie is supposed to end like Madam Butterfly, which

438
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: they recap in full in the movie, which is that

439
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: runs the man leaves the woman, she kills herself in

440
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: you know, despair, and that's how the movie ended. And

441
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: that's filmed. It exists. You can basically frames him because

442
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: she makes sure his fingerprints are on the knife that

443
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: he picks up to almost you know, or to whatever

444
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: happens that scene. Um, so his fingerprints are on the

445
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: knife and then he gets arrested for her murder. That's yeah,

446
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: that's how that was supposed to end. It didn't test

447
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: well with audiences, so they rewrote it. They reshot it

448
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: into the ending that we have now. And something I

449
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 1: thought was interesting was that, like Michael Douglas was pro

450
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: the ending that is in the movie, but the director

451
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: andrean Line or Lynn which is it? Not sure? He

452
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: directed a terrible version of Lolita anyways, other one with

453
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: Jeremy Irons. One with Jeremy Irons. It's sick. It is.

454
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: I mean, it is a story, not that shouldn't be

455
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: filmed in the first place, correct, but the way he

456
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: does it is disgusting. But anyways, the director and Glenn

457
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: Close were so resistant to change it, but they were

458
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: studio notes into oblivion, and that's why we have the

459
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: very confusing ending that exists now. Right. Yeah, So, like

460
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: Alex shows up in the bathroom she got in undetected

461
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: into their house, is in the bathroom with Beth, has

462
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: a knife and makes stabbing motions at Beth, but somehow

463
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: doesn't like she's striking her with the knife in her hands. End,

464
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: but she doesn't get stabbed somehow. I guess she's punching

465
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: her with the fist that she's holding the knife in

466
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: not clear. And then Dan has to come in and

467
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: save her um and then Beth ultimately shoots Alex to death.

468
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: So it's like right, the domestic figure triumphing over this

469
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,959
Speaker 1: woman that the movie has made you believe is evil,

470
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: and like, I have to admit, I was like falling

471
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: for it even as I was watching it this time,

472
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: Like whenever he's trying to kill her, I was like, Yeah,

473
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: she kidnapped a child, she like boiled a rabbit. Yeah,

474
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: like she's a bad person. I want her to be defeated.

475
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: But then I was like, wait a minute, this is

476
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: the movie manipulating me into thinking this, and I shouldn't

477
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: be feeling this way because the way the movie handles

478
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: or doesn't handle, like mental health and framing her is

479
00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: this unhinged woman without Yeah, I mean this this movie

480
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: has no regard for a lot of things. But like

481
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: meant that the use of like the crazy woman trope

482
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: is so I mean, it's not just hack and tired,

483
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: it's so oblivious to any any mental health issue. Um.

484
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:25,719
Speaker 1: In fact, according to the Amazon Prime trivia that pops

485
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: up when you're watching it, there um boo to Amazon.

486
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: But anyway. In a interview with CBS News, Glenn Close

487
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: admitted that she would have rethought her portrayal of Alex

488
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: Forest because of her fear that the film's popularity may

489
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: have been a contributing factor toward mental health stigma. Close

490
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: said that I would have read the script totally differently. Um,

491
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: the astounding thing was that in my research for Fatal Attraction,

492
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: I talked to to psychiatrists. Never did a mention of

493
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,719
Speaker 1: mental disorder come up. Never did the possibility of that

494
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: come up. That, of course would have been the first

495
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: thing I think of. Now, so she has, you know,

496
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: in recent years. You know, it's what seems like expressing

497
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: regrets on how this movie frames. So good good for

498
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: Glenn because right the way I mean she attempts suicide

499
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: and then she acts increasingly unstable and unhinged and violent

500
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: and stoker ish, and and also like very clearly paints

501
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,239
Speaker 1: the suicide attempt is like, oh, it was strategic and

502
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: she just wanted to reel you in and keep your

503
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: attention and this is why someone would do that. And yeah,

504
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: it's all you know, I think. I think it's interesting

505
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: too that this movie it came out maybe six or

506
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: seven years before Bill Clinton became president, and it was

507
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: a real cultural moment, right, it was just huge. It

508
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: was a global success. And then you know, maybe I

509
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: don't know, not very long after that you had Bill

510
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: Clinton and Monica Lewinsky had issues with Hillary Clinton, and

511
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: you know whether she would stand by her man or not,

512
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: And all of that feels like one long cultural nightmare moment, right,

513
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: Like just the narrative of the film, the message it's sent,

514
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: the idea that somehow women are in control of men's

515
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: sexuality and that they can be absolved of responsibility for

516
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: the havoc they've reached um and that indeed Bill Clinton

517
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: abusing the power that he abused in the White House,

518
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: it can can step back while the two women do

519
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: get out publicly, right, And those feel very similar to

520
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: me in terms of how the public deals with those

521
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,479
Speaker 1: issues or wants to deal with those issues or not.

522
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, it's just the concept of a

523
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: home record seems to be very prevalent in this and

524
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: then the years that come after the eighties, like movie.

525
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: I struggle with Movie, A lot of movies from the

526
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: eighties kind of for this reason, where there I mean,

527
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: there's misogyny and cinema in every year since film has existed,

528
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 1: but like the eighties stands up out to me, particularly

529
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: because there were so many things in the seventies that

530
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: were positive and moving women and what would appear to

531
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: be you know, like more movies about women in the workplace.

532
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: You've got normal ray, You've got like really cool, interesting

533
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: movies like that. But then the eighties seems to kind

534
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: of revel in setting it back and being like, oh, wait,

535
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: we've accidentally made women too powerful. Now we've got to

536
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: make them scary again and make like a woman, a

537
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: competent woman, you know, somehow nullify that. Right. Yeah, But

538
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's interesting what we're seeing now

539
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: though with witches, because there's resurgence of resurgence of which narratives, right,

540
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: because we're talking about power and we're talking about anger.

541
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: And the thing about which narratives always is that they've

542
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: always implied that there is crazy irrationality involved and that

543
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 1: the power women have is unnatural. It's never natural, right,

544
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: it's extra natural, it's extraordinary, and it's not rational. The

545
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: anger is never rational, the power is never rational. And

546
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: that's that's the only thing that kind of really concerns

547
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,959
Speaker 1: me about all of these witchcraft narratives right now. That's

548
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: so interesting, Yeah, because witchcraft narratives do tend to crop

549
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 1: up in bulk. Yeah, for a while and I was

550
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 1: I was thinking, I mean, this is sort of off

551
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: topic a little bit, the like why is both like

552
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: witchcraft and like Taro and astrology seems to have come

553
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: back in a major way and like the past several years,

554
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: and I think I sort of just was like, oh, well,

555
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 1: this is probably like a societal response to dystopia where

556
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: everyone wants to believe in magic again because we live

557
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: in a very fashy world. But that makes a ton

558
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 1: of sense of you know, even though women are allowed

559
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: to be powerful in these narratives, it is couched in

560
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: like but not every woman is like this and like

561
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: you have and and it's it can be dangerous. It's

562
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 1: dangerous and men are always at risk because the women

563
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: have the power. And it's not normal. Right, That's the

564
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: point about the women's power in Witchcraft. It's not normal. Right. Yeah, Wow,

565
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: thank you for making me think that we've got to

566
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: take a quick break, but we will be right back

567
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: in a moment. Can we talk about the like pregnancy

568
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: and abortion aspect of this where she tells him that

569
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: she is pregnant, He gregnant. He says that he will

570
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: help her take care of it. Basically, he'll pay for

571
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: the abortion, and she's like, no, I I want to

572
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: keep it. He says, well, don't I have any saying this,

573
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: And part of me is like her body, her choice,

574
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 1: but she says she's going to have the baby whether

575
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,399
Speaker 1: he wants to have anything to do with it or not,

576
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: and we're like okay. But then a moment later, she's like, well,

577
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: I was hoping that you didn't want to have something

578
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 1: to do with it, And that's the whole like trapping

579
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: him narrative of like I'm keeping the baby, said that

580
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 1: hopefully you'll want to go out with me, my boyfriend

581
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: and so, and then I guess he calls the doctor,

582
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: her doctor, and the doctor confirms that she is pregnant,

583
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: and I was like, wait, what about like doctor patient confidentiality?

584
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: But then I looked up when Hippa was. I looked

585
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: it up and Hippa didn't go into effect and tell nineties.

586
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: So that's that. Yeah, So you could just be some

587
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: random guy and be like, hey, is this lady pregnant?

588
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: That's and that's so wow. Yeah, because this movie came

589
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: out in what eighties? Seven? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Um. Now

590
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: we live in a time where Amazon will tell you

591
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: if you're pregnant before you know, so Jeff Bezos knows

592
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: about every drop of the seaman on the planet. Um.

593
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: And then a little bit later, the Dan character says like, look,

594
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: whether or not you want to keep it, it's your choice.

595
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: So I'm like, okay, pro choice, Dan Gallagher. Good for him. Um.

596
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: But again, it just it, It does so much to

597
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: reinforce this idea that so many men have, which is

598
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: the Yep, women are crazy. You sleep with them and

599
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: it's fun for a second, but then they're gonna go

600
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: ape shift on you, and they're gonna trap you, and

601
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: they're gonna you know, stock you and this and this

602
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: and that. The thing that's most telling to me, and

603
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: I guess why why I brought up the uh, the

604
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: two endings in the first place, is that you know,

605
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: at least two of them. And there was also god,

606
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 1: I can't remember what her name is, let me pull

607
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: it up, but the director Glenn Close and producer named

608
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: Sherry Lansing, who was like a very powerful producer at

609
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 1: this time. We're all against changing the ending. But the

610
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: audience response and remember this is like Reagan era, so scary, right,

611
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: but like the audience response was so against it that

612
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: they literally had no choice. The movie couldn't get released

613
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: unless the far different ending that watching it now, you're like, wait,

614
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: what is happening here unless the thing that you know

615
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: reinforce these very traditional oppressive values was included. And that

616
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: was like the audience's decision. And so it's like you

617
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: can't even blame it on an executive, which is always

618
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: fun to do, right. It was just the cultural landscape

619
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: at the time, and I think Sherry Lansing, I think

620
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: one of her responses was, what do you mean it

621
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: depicts professional women badly? I'm a professional woman, yes, which

622
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 1: of course is irrelevant, like he really has nothing to

623
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: do with how the movie depicts this one. Um, but

624
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: that was her response in defense of producing the film,

625
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: I think, right, which is like I mean that, I'm like,

626
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: what do we make of that response? I mean, I

627
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: don't know. Sometimes it's it's like when a woman's response

628
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,720
Speaker 1: to oppressing other women is like, but it's chill because

629
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:28,919
Speaker 1: like women women and with it so it's cool like no, right,

630
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 1: but um, I also interesting argument just real quickly wanted

631
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 1: to touch on, as per almost every movie in existence,

632
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: this is an extremely white movie. But a few different

633
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,240
Speaker 1: times a few of the white characters are like mocking

634
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: specifically Japanese culture because like the very beginning there um

635
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,280
Speaker 1: at this book event for this samurai self help book,

636
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: and Dan and his friend are like making fun of

637
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: the Japanese people there, and then they do it again

638
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: later on when they're like having their like couples dinner together,

639
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: they're like just like imitating them in a very offensive way. Yeah,

640
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 1: it is not good in that yeah. And also it's

641
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: interesting because it is this very specific stereotype of a crazy,

642
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: angry woman that is tied to whiteness, to white women, right,

643
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: Like we know the stereotypes for black women, they're just

644
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:26,280
Speaker 1: born angry, right, Angry black women is that stereotype, and

645
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: even little girls who are are black in school are

646
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: target that brush, right. And I think too we have

647
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 1: like if you're Asian American or of Asian descent, you're sad,

648
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: right of that whole trope, And if you're Hispanic, you're hot.

649
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: But if you're white, you're crazy, like you know, you're

650
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 1: literally insane. Um. And I think that depiction is one

651
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 1: that really sticks in people's heads. I mean, they they

652
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: refer still to Glenn Close as sort of mad expression

653
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,839
Speaker 1: and the boiling bunny, and I don't think you can

654
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,760
Speaker 1: say operated from her whiteness, you know, And there's different

655
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 1: like variations on that is as like you know, cinema

656
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: has gone on where I think that evolves into like

657
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: the manic pixie dreamgirl trope that we see and things

658
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: like that. But yeah, it is real. It's like upper

659
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: class white woman equals crazy. I guess, well, I mean

660
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: and and and the like professional white woman. Uh is,

661
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 1: like it's like peak demonization here. And there's so many

662
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: variants of that theme in the eighties of like mean

663
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:41,439
Speaker 1: that that trickles like even into now. Uh of like

664
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: you know, a woman who is where you know, wearing

665
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: any manner of shoulder pad is an evil person and

666
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 1: is going to ruin your life. Yeah, so like the

667
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: demonization of women in the workplace, which unfortunately because the

668
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 1: world white women were sort of the first women welcomed

669
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: into the higher echelons of the workplace. It's yes. Is

670
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 1: there anything else that anyone wants to say about the

671
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: the film? Well, I have a question for you, please.

672
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: Do you think it would be any different if the

673
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: original ending were run now? If they if this were

674
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: re released as far as I can tell the way

675
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: the yeah, the way the alternate ending was described to me,

676
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: I don't like that ending any better because I don't

677
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 1: like this movie. I don't think like I I think

678
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 1: it is an effective thriller because there are moments when

679
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm scared, but like because of the way

680
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: the movie handles and or mishandles so many things and

681
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: perpetuates all these negative, you know, tropes and stereotypes about

682
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: you know, kind of specific types of women and stuff

683
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: like that and demonizes, you know, female sexuality. And because

684
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: there's a moment where Alex is something like I won't

685
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 1: allow you to treat me like some slet you can

686
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: bang a couple of times and then throwing the garbage.

687
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 1: So on one hand, like her anger is like justified

688
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: because she's like, you know, you knew what you were doing,

689
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 1: and then you're gonna dump me because you're going back

690
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,959
Speaker 1: to your wife, and the movie like equivocates like that

691
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: rational statement with her being exactly exactly, so it just

692
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 1: it like goes towards taking things in the right direction

693
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: a couple of times, but then immediately like backtracks on them.

694
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: So to answer your question, I don't think it would

695
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: have been that differently, because that ending is her committing

696
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,240
Speaker 1: suicide and then like framing him from beyond the grave,

697
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 1: and that's just as unhinged as everything else that happens. Yeah,

698
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 1: I agree, I don't. I don't think it's a better

699
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,399
Speaker 1: I think, like story wise, it's an ending that makes

700
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,479
Speaker 1: more sense with the very like deeply troubled story that's

701
00:43:55,480 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 1: been set up, so strictly for story it makes more sense.

702
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: But I think that, like, especially where we already view

703
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 1: her make a suicide attempt in front of him, that

704
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: she follows through on it at the end, I don't like.

705
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 1: I don't know where that's besides mirroring Madam Butterfly. I

706
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: don't know what that does. I don't know. Just how

707
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: do you feel about it? Right? Well, the thing that

708
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,439
Speaker 1: occurred to me with the the ending that was eliminated

709
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 1: actually was it's funny to me that you said been

710
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 1: closely commented on mental illness, because had she done that,

711
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 1: I think you would have been more likely to leave

712
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 1: with the feeling that she had a mental illness, because

713
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,320
Speaker 1: you know, you don't get rebuffed and then try and

714
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,879
Speaker 1: kill yourself and then kill yourself. That's not the way

715
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: that works, um, and and so it actually would have

716
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,280
Speaker 1: veered away from the she's just a crazy woman narrative

717
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: and the use of crazy in that very negative sense

718
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 1: to wow, you know, something was really wrong with this

719
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 1: person she didn't help, which is a totally different thing.

720
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,760
Speaker 1: Nobody wanted to help Glenn Close, you know, right, Yeah,

721
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: I guess that would end up eliciting a like sympathy,

722
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: And well, I don't I don't necessarily think so, but

723
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,439
Speaker 1: I do think it was. It was different because you'd

724
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: end up with a different feeling, right, Like, it's just

725
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 1: different than that hyper violent catfighting that we got. But

726
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: it's all within the parameters, as you say, of the

727
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: fact that she's an unhandied woman, and that's what we're

728
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 1: dealing with. Yeah. I I'm still trying to process the

729
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 1: events of this movie after having rewatched it, and and

730
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: I I can't do it. It's very easily. Yeah, it's

731
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it's so ingrained into like people who haven't

732
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 1: seen this movie are familiar with this, with the basics

733
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 1: of what this movie did, and and it's like I've

734
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: literally heard you know, men site this character as a

735
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: reason to not trust a certain type of woman. Oh, yeah, right,

736
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,760
Speaker 1: that's true. Glenn Close says she said in two thousand

737
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 1: and eight that men still come up to her and

738
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 1: say that her character scared the ship out of them,

739
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 1: or that like her character saved their marriage, which liked.

740
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 1: I don't know, and we have really been doing a

741
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 1: lot better since. Yeah, Or that they were like inspired

742
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: to either tell or not tell of their wives of

743
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: their infidelity. I don't know. I can't even imagine what

744
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: that would look like. But Uma is actually, um, well,

745
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 1: we're just about a time, so let's discuss whether or

746
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: not this movie passes the Bechdel test. It does a

747
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: couple of times, um so so thinly. But there is

748
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: a moment between the daughter Ellen and her babysitter, who

749
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: gets named as Christine, and it's played by uh. They

750
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: say like, hey Christine, Hey Ellen, how you doing. I'm good.

751
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: Where's your mom? She's in the bathroom. I got your present.

752
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:08,760
Speaker 1: I like it. Okay, let's go find her best role. Yes,

753
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: so that passes. Um. It passes between Beth and Alex whenever, um,

754
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: Alex comes into their apartment and they're talking about the apartment,

755
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: they're talking about the cleaning lady. So like that's mostly happens.

756
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: You know, you hear that dialogue kind of like happing

757
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: off screen, but um, it's there. It passes. Uh, And

758
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: then there's a fun moment where Beth picks up the

759
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: phone and she says, this is Beth Gallagher. If you

760
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 1: ever come near my family again, I will kill you. You

761
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: You understand so. But but Alex doesn't respond, So that

762
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 1: does not it's a feminist text. So let's write it

763
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 1: now on our nipple scales zero to five nipples. Based

764
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:54,760
Speaker 1: on his portrayal of women. Um, it demonizes everything about

765
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: an empowered woman, basically a woman who's in control of

766
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: her sexuality, a career woman, you know, a woman who

767
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 1: wants to have a baby, Like just everything about it is.

768
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: She's like, well she's crazy and she's you know, trying

769
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 1: to trap him. So I'm going to give it zero nipples.

770
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: I think I'm also going to give it zero for

771
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 1: all the reasons to describe. Yeah, I just I can't

772
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: stand Reagan era movies. Um, just blanket statement anything that

773
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,879
Speaker 1: came out during his presidency. It tends to be regressive, capitalistic,

774
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: and like just annoying to watch. Um, I mean I

775
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: love that. It makes me so angry. And just I

776
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: think that I just him on team Glenn Close forever.

777
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,240
Speaker 1: But it makes me angry the way that Glenn Close,

778
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 1: who was forty when this movie came out. Um, the

779
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 1: way she was able to get a leading role was

780
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: to play a character like this, Like there were not

781
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: that many options for women, you know, even over thirty five, uh,

782
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:00,799
Speaker 1: playing leading roles at this time because she was out

783
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: of the on genew zone and so what she was

784
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: relegated to her mother roles or this new opportunity of

785
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: being someone who's completely unhinged, and this was the way

786
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 1: for her to get a leading role. You know, that's like,

787
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: what what kind of option is that? Sure? Zero nets,

788
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 1: so zero nipples across the board. Cool? Well, Sarria, thank

789
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,240
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today. Oh my pleasure.

790
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: That was really fun. I'm so sorry that I have

791
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: to stop right now. Oh no, that's quite all right.

792
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: Is there anything you would like to to plug? Where

793
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: can people follow you online? Oh? Um? So they can

794
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: follow me on Twitter at s c H E. M

795
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,280
Speaker 1: A L. Y. Whenever I publish anything, I usually share

796
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 1: it there or also in Facebook. And also I am

797
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: the director of Initiative of the Women's Media center called

798
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 1: The Speech Project, which focuses on women's signific and political participation,

799
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,240
Speaker 1: and so it's always easy to find me there too

800
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: Awesome and read us Rice book Rage Becomes Her The

801
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: Power of Women's Anger. You can follow us the Bechtel

802
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 1: Cast at becktel Cast on all of the platforms. You

803
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: can go to our merch store at bechtel cast dot

804
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:16,280
Speaker 1: com or t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast,

805
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: and we've got T shirts, pillows, mugs, all phone cases,

806
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 1: all of the goodies you could ever ask for. We've

807
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 1: got cool designs like strong female protagonist, feminist icon, queer icon,

808
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:39,839
Speaker 1: non binary, non binary, a lot of wild stuff in

809
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:44,240
Speaker 1: the store. Yeah, so get it now, and don't forget

810
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: about our Patreon a k a. Matreon. It is five

811
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,399
Speaker 1: dollars a month and you get to bonus episodes every

812
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 1: single month. Oh, I just felt it. I guess we

813
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: did talk about the stars born in this episode, So

814
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: we did, and I didn't even bring it up. I

815
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:07,400
Speaker 1: know I wrote it up. So they're well, everyone, thank

816
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: you for listening, love you, love you, and we'll see

817
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: you next time. Bye bye,