WEBVTT - The Delphi Murders: The Quest for Justice with Barbara MacDonald 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:14.000 One of my best childhood friends was Tim, and his 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:18.800 backyard backed up to my backyard, so all we had 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:21.279 to do to get together was climb over the fence. 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:26.759 Tim was always planning some types of adventure for us, 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:30.159 making rafts like huck fins so we could try to 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:35.680 cross Massingale lake, building ramps to jump our bikes, starting 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:40.440 fires with magnifying glasses. Once he even showed me just 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.760 how far we could be away from home by cutting 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:47.680 through the woods, crossing the creek, and coming out on 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:51.640 the other side. We were literally on the other side 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:56.040 of town. Tim was always ready to jump off something, 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:59.600 build something, or take off on one of our escapades. 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:03.800 I think about my time with him when I think 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:08.880 about Delphi. In this case, two young kids heading out 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:13.080 on an adventure, and it occurs to me what could 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:20.040 have been what should have been. Monday February thirteenth, twenty seventeen, 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:25.720 Liberty Germans and Abigail Williams went missing. They went missing 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:30.360 in Delphi, Indiana, off the high Bridge. Law enforcement and 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:35.320 family searched through the ninth February fourteenth. The next day, 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:39.880 law enforcement and volunteers continued their search, and during that 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:46.479 search their bodies were found. February fifteenth, law enforcement reveals 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:52.040 that Libby's phone contained images of the suspected killer. The 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.040 girls were found half a mile from the bridge on 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:58.760 the property of a man by the name of Ronald Logan. 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:07.600 Twenty second, twenty seventeen, law enforcement release the infamous audio 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:11.600 that we've all heard, where we believe the killer says 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:17.600 down the Hill. July seventeenth, twenty seventeen, law enforcement releases 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:22.560 the first sketch of the suspect. April twenty second, twenty nineteen, 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:27.120 the Indiana State Police release a second sketch, the second 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:32.399 Sketches of a younger man. October twenty sixth, twenty twenty two, 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:39.120 law enforcement arrest fifty year old Richard Allen of Delphi 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:43.839 for these murders. We have somebody with us today that's 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:46.280 going to help fill in some of the gaps and 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:49.560 paint a better picture of what occurred there and where 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:53.400 we are now, y'all. We got Barbara McDonald with us 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:57.200 for over seven years. She was a senior writer at HLN. 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.120 She is the co host, writer and producer, and I 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:04.079 want you all to get that a co host, a writer, 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:08.200 and producer of the podcast Down the Hill and I 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:10.600 can tell you if I'm doing a podcast how she 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:14.679 does all that, I don't know. The most important thing 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:18.400 to me when I think of Barbara is the fact 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:22.960 that she spent six weeks in Delphi, own her own 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:26.480 time and own her own dime. Now she may not 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:28.120 tell you that, but I'm going to tell you that 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:31.519 because she took her own time and her own money, 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:34.480 not to go to Greece, not to go to Paris, 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:37.520 not to go to some all inclusive place for you 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:41.280 can stay naked for a week. She went to Delphi, 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:45.760 Indiana because this case meant that much to her that 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:52.560 these two young girls thirteen and fourteen were murdered in 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.320 a place that arguably most of us had never heard of. 0:03:56.320 --> 0:04:00.160 But that's where she went. She used her intellect, her 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:05.480 journalistic skills, and her vast network to investigate, advocate, and 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:09.320 assist on this case. Now she has also graciously helped 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:13.000 me on numerous cases again in her spare time. Like 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:17.240 she's got any but she is a solid part of 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:22.719 my Zone seven. I am so happy to welcome Barbara McDonald. 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.719 What a nice introduction. Thank you so much. I'm so 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:29.080 thrilled to be here today talking to you. About a 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.320 case that I know means so much to both of us. 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:34.839 It's really gotten under our skin. The family members have 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:38.000 become part of our heart. You know, hopefully we are 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:40.120 about to see justice for Abby and Libby. 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:41.160 It's time. 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:44.279 It is absolutely time. And you're right. I mean, I 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:48.359 don't think you can spend two minutes with Kelsey German 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:49.960 that you just don't fall in love with her. 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:53.920 There's so many wonderful members of both families. And you 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:56.400 know what I go back to all the time is 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:59.039 these were two girls who are absolutely loved and cared 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:02.680 for by their family, and were important members of their 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:06.680 families and had bright futures ahead of them, and we're 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:09.520 going to grow up and do wonderful things. They both 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.920 had goals, they both had dreams. They wanted to make 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:15.560 a difference in the world, and they probably would have, 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.360 and unfortunately today we're talking about, you know, the worst 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:21.359 thing that happened to these families. 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:24.000 You know, and Kelsey had mentioned to me that Libby 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.839 liked law enforcement and detective work and had sort of 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:32.719 the little fascination with it. And it strikes me that 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:38.120 here own arguably one of the most highlighted cold cases 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:41.279 that we've had in the last five years, that Libby 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:43.560 is the one that gave us the best piece of 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:46.279 evidence right out of the gate. She did that. 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.040 You know, I often wonder if she knew just how 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:53.479 significant that action was. You know, it's hard to go 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:56.040 into those moments and think about exactly what they were 0:05:56.080 --> 0:06:00.720 thinking and processing as the events were unfolding. But the 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:05.560 bravery that she showed to take that phone and try 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:11.000 to get something that she could leave to say this 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.160 is what happened just before the end. And I certainly 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:18.760 hope that as this prosecution moves forward that they have 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:21.839 all the pieces that they need that they're able to 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.520 make the case they want to make. They have charged 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:28.640 this man, Richard Allen, with a very very serious crime, 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:32.560 the broad daylight murder of two little girls. As his 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:36.200 case makes its way through the justice system, there's pieces 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:40.280 that are coming out through documents released by the court. 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:42.880 But you know, we should all want this man to 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:45.480 get a fair trial, because if he gets a fair trial, 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:47.960 Abby and Libby get a fair trial, and that's what 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:51.480 we want. We want justice for these two precious girls. 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.280 I have never heard it put that way, Barbara, but 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:57.279 I'm going to start using that if he gets a 0:06:57.320 --> 0:06:59.640 fair trial, they get a fair trial. 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.560 Yeah, and ultimately that you know, there's so many people 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:07.720 who watch this case, and I've really watched recently, especially 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:10.480 with the release of the latest round of documents of 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.040 one hundred and eighteen documents that were released by the 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:17.400 court publicly. There's information in there that some people are 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:22.080 grabbing onto, going, aha, this is the piece of evidence 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:24.000 that proves that he did this. 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:26.120 We're not there yet. 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:31.120 He has been charged, and we should all want to 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:35.520 see this trial play out and see the evidence presented 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:39.720 in court by the people who collected it, by the 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.480 people who tested it, by the experts who analyze the results, 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:47.960 by the witnesses. Hear what the prosecution is saying about 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.400 all of that, as well as here what the defense 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:53.720 says about it, and the holes that they try to 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:57.960 poke in all of the evidence and facts that the 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:02.160 prosecution is going to present, and then come to a 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:06.000 decision about is this the man and has the state 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:10.600 proven its case. I don't want to pass judgment at 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:13.280 this point on whether Richard Allen is guilty or not 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.160 of this crime, but I want to see him get 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:19.080 that fair trial. I want to see the evidence presented. 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:21.400 I want to see it picked apart. I want to 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:25.680 hear what various experts say about the validity of this 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.880 element or that element, or this test or that test. 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.480 I want to hear what the witnesses have to say, 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:34.400 because in the documents that have been released, you know, 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.720 some of their statements are contradictory. They don't really match 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:42.160 up exactly some of them. There's some similarities there, but 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:46.000 some of them disagree on things like his hair color 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:51.560 and his height and all of that matters. So I'm 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:55.720 really looking forward to that day in court. The trial 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:58.880 is scheduled for January of twenty twenty four. Hard to 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.360 say if it's going to actually happen then, as you know, 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.719 a lot of things can happen, especially in a high 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:10.440 profile case. So you know, I want to reserve judgment, 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:13.680 and I would hope that more people would be willing 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:14.800 to do that as well. 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:16.679 No, I think that's valid, And if you want to 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:18.840 look at things that are contradictory, you don't have to 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:24.000 look any further than the two composites that they put out. Indeed, 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:27.280 So you know, I think it's valid what you're saying. 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:30.440 And again I tell people all the time it's so 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:32.880 nice to have people that kind of keep you grounded, 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:37.400 remind you this is how the system works, how it 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:39.800 should work, how we should all want it to work. 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:49.959 One of my mantras is, you cannot take away walk 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:54.880 in that scene. You cannot. I don't think over emphasize 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:57.840 the importance of going to that scene. And here's what 0:09:57.880 --> 0:09:59.880 I tell people all the time. If I'm at a 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:04.400 and there's some woods, it is as important to me 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:09.400 where the body is as it is what's on the 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:11.960 other side of those woods. Because on the other side 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:14.680 of those woods, if you've got a cemetery, so to speak, 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:18.000 or a liquor store or an apartment complex, that matters 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:22.880 to me. Because this body disposal site was selected, it 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:27.840 was selected before the murder. Why did the killer pick it? 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:31.320 That's going to tell you about him. So you got 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:36.000 to spend six weeks boots on the ground tell us 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:36.520 about that. 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:37.240 You know. 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.679 A highlight of my coverage of this case, for sure, 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:43.920 was to be able to really blend in as much 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:48.120 as I could to the Delphi community. You know, it's 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:52.079 a charming, quaint little town. Delphi is small, only about 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:55.720 three thousand people. It's the county seat of Carroll County, 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:58.160 and Carroll County only has about twenty or twenty two 0:10:58.240 --> 0:10:59.480 thousand people, so we're. 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:01.880 Talking about very rural area. 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:07.079 It's about an hour and a half northwest of Indianapolis, 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:11.720 near Lafayette, which is where home of Purdue University. So 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:15.640 much larger population there, but still not a huge, huge area. 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:19.600 A lot of farmland, a lot of agriculture, a lot 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.600 of people living very rural lives. And this is a 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.400 small community, you know, it's not the kind of community 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.680 that has a target, you know, a movie theater or 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:32.679 a shopping mall or anything like that. And so for 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:35.360 two little girls to decide on a day off from 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:39.079 school to go walk the trails, that's a pretty common 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:44.040 activity there. And I have walked those trails so many 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:48.480 times in all kinds of different weather from probably I 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:51.920 think you have done this as well, Cheryl, from like 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:55.959 fifteen degree weather with snow on the ground to ninety 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.880 five degree weather in the middle of summer. And what 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.800 I have seen is people use the trails. This is 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:05.600 an area where people go and walk. You know, this 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:09.920 isn't a community that necessarily has sidewalks and neighborhoods and 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:13.720 places that people can walk throughout the regular part of 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:17.120 the community. Downtown they have that, but where most people 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:20.000 live that doesn't exist. So I can totally see a 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.679 world where you know, you're out running errands, you want 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:24.720 to go for a walk, let's stop by the trails. 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.800 That's what they're there for. And it's a really beautiful 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:31.480 area of land. The Deer Creek runs through there, and 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:35.960 parts of it are just absolutely beautiful, and you know, 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:39.000 the deer and the wild animals and the various birds 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:42.960 and the trees. The area is very sloping, thus the 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:45.800 down the hill, so that gives you a lot of 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:51.000 different types of land and plants, and it's just really 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:55.720 a gem of the community. And every time I've been 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.839 out there, I've seen people using the trails for recreation. 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.600 It is not an uncommon thing. Kids go out there 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:04.840 to go for a walk, Adults go out there to 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.719 go for a walk. I've talked to people who have 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:11.440 ridden ATVs across the Moon on High Bridge when it 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:15.240 was in its you know, disrepair before they just updated 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:19.240 it and added a walking platform onto the bridge to 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:21.560 make it safer for people who do go out there 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:25.880 to enjoy it. But it's a really wonderful place, and 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:30.040 I remember talking with Becky Patty early on and she 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:31.840 was like, you know, when the girls wanted to go 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.360 out there that day, they had the day off from school, 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.680 and I thought, well, heck, that's better than them sitting 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:38.080 in front of the TV all day. 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:40.760 And that was the attitude, you know. 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:42.920 And you were talking at the top of the show 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:45.720 about your friend Tim and the adventures you would go 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:48.160 on in your neighborhood. I grew up the same way. 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:48.600 You know. 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:50.960 We were the kind of kids that were of that 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.240 generation where your mom kicked you basically out of the 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:56.760 house at nine am and said, don't come back till 0:13:56.760 --> 0:13:59.200 the lights are on in the neighborhood, and you know, 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:01.720 we were on our I going all over the place. 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:04.520 I mean, when I think back to how many miles 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:09.200 away from home I would routinely travel as a seven, 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:14.160 eight nine year old, it's pretty surprising compared to today's 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:19.040 standards of how parents parent their children. So I relate 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:21.400 a lot to Abby and Libby going out there on 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.160 the bridge wanting to take pictures of the bridge. When 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.080 I was thirteen, I was a shutter bug. I had 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:28.840 my camera, I took it everywhere. 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:31.080 I did the same kind of stuff. 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.800 And this was two girls going out in broad daylight 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:37.960 in the middle of the afternoon. My mom always said, 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.440 go with somebody. You know, there's safety in numbers. As 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:43.200 long as you're not alone, you'll be okay. 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:47.480 And as you say, broad daylight with other people around. 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:52.400 This was not some deserted deep in the wood spot 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.120 where they were going. They were going where there were 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:59.040 tons of people hiking and biking and picnicing and everything else. 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:02.600 Yeah, people go there and fish and you know, just 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:05.440 go out and enjoy the fresh air and the scenery. 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:10.560 And you're right, it's not in a secluded area by 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:14.400 any means. There are homes, not a lot of homes, 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.320 but there are homes near the area within you know, 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:22.160 one or two miles. Downtown Delphi is only about a 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.200 mile or two away, so it's not far at all. 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:30.280 And you know, it's just really unfortunate what happened out 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:33.880 there that day and how it has really changed this 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:38.440 entire community. It blew up, as you know, into such 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:43.120 a media firestorm. When it first happened. People were calling 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.920 it the Snapchat killing because of the video that Liddy 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:48.760 had got on her phone. 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:50.920 It made the news. 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.480 All over the world. You know, I remember talking with 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:58.200 law enforcement officers who were fielding calls from Japan and Finland, 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.040 and I think even a lot Via. Somebody in Latvia 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:04.640 called the Indiana State Police wanting information on the case. 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:09.960 So it definitely touched a nerve with true crime audiences 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:14.080 all over the world. And here we are now with 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:18.480 somebody in custody facing trial, and for a long time 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:21.080 it didn't really look like we were going to get there, 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:21.920 but here we are. 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.120 Well, you know, when I first got involved, and they 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.360 were saying, you know, it could be a transient person, 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:29.880 it could be a truck driver. So when I first 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:34.080 went there, I told Kelsey and them, don't tell me anything. 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:37.200 Don't tell me where the bridge is. Let me see 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:39.920 if I can find it. Well, there's not like a 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:42.720 ton of signage like telling you, hey, this is one 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.680 of our cool places to go hang out. And then 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:50.160 once I kind of got near, there's an overpath that 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.240 has the bridge's name on it. And so when you 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.320 turn and go under that underpath, you're still like, where 0:16:56.320 --> 0:17:00.320 the heck is this bridge? Right? So I was, and 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:02.320 I finally gave up and I said, Okay, you're going 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:04.240 to have to tell me and Kelthy said, well, here's 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:09.439 where you park, Barbara. I would have never seen that 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.960 turn off. It was like gravel, but it was kind of, 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:17.160 you know, in the midst of some growth and other 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:18.719 things on the side of the road. So then when 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.480 I finally pulled up there, I could see, yes, there's 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.240 a place to park, and there's this beautiful little blue 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:27.040 bridge or walk bridge. But then you still have a 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.679 good bit to go on this trail and you have 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.720 to go for a pretty good distance before all of 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:37.600 a sudden you just turn and there's this bridge. It's 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:42.879 almost like wow, and it's bigger and taller and longer 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:44.960 than you think in your head before you get there. 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:47.240 So the first thing that I knew is there ain't 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:49.480 no way somebody just came upon this bridge that was 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:50.359 traveling through here. 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:53.119 Not happening absolutely, And you know what we had the 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:55.440 first we had the same experience as you. The first 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:58.800 time that we went to Delphi. I was with Susan 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:03.040 Hendrix from HLA and two shorhotographers and we did the 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:04.960 same thing with Kelsey. We said, don't tell us where 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:06.800 it is, We're going to try to find it. And 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:10.520 four of us with four smartphones could not find this bridge, 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.280 could not figure out how to get to where we 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:15.840 wanted to go, and I finally had to call Kelsey 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:17.639 and have her direct us there. 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:19.440 And I had the. 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:22.439 Same thought, there was no way this was somebody driving 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:26.320 through and going hmmm, maybe I'll just stop there. This 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.679 had to have been somebody who knew this was here. 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.880 I've even talked to people who've lived in Delphi for many, 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:37.000 many years and didn't know these trails were there until 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:38.000 this happened. 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:42.560 I remember telling Doug Carter, he's right there, He's within 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:46.040 five miles of that bridge. He has to live there. 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:50.080 So again, if you're a cold case investigator, you know 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:54.240 that nine times out of ten, his name's already in 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:57.760 the case file. So you've got to go back, look 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:01.320 at every name and make sure you can throw that 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:06.080 person out. So our advice immediately got to have fresh 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:08.639 eyes on this thing. You got to start over. And 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:12.480 I know, me and a group of detectives and csis 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:15.840 and psychopathologists, we all volunteered to do that for them, 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:19.200 but it was that imperative I will come there and 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:23.399 do it, because that's how confident I am. He's right there. 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.040 And you know, when you get to know the area 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:30.120 and you walk around it. Where the girls were found 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:35.720 compared to where they were approached on the bridge, seems 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:38.320 to me to have been a deliberate effort on the 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:42.800 part of the killer to get somewhere more secluded. I 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.080 think where they were found is probably one of the 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:49.480 most secluded areas that you could go to in that 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:54.240 general area. Agreed, where you're going to be out of sight, 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:59.200 perhaps out of sound range from anybody else who might 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:02.280 be using the trails or the park. 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:05.600 One hundred percent agree. And there's even enough of a 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:11.040 ravine that if you're laying there or prepping leaving items, 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:15.000 people looking up can't see it. So there's no doubt 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.760 in my mind that location was picked before. 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:18.439 Yeah. 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:21.000 The other thing that's interesting, and I don't hear a 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:23.680 lot of people talk about this, but I think that 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:28.399 is an area that also provides if you're familiar with 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:32.560 the area, I think that area provides multiple ways to 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:37.959 get out. So if you are at this scene and 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:42.800 you're doing something you shouldn't be doing and somebody begins 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:46.360 to come near you, you would have plenty of notice 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:49.520 that they're approaching you before they would know you were there, 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:52.600 and you would have multiple ways to get out of. 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:56.359 There, correct. And the first thing that kind of resonated 0:20:56.400 --> 0:21:00.159 with me is they were slowly giving us information. Is 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:03.440 the one car that was parked way off? And then 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:07.160 you look at the video and you know, I tried 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:11.919 to again gently say to people, this person does not 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:15.399 look like he goes to the gym every day. And 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:19.919 the reason that is relevant is because who is going 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:25.080 to park further away to then start hiking? And again, 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:27.040 I want to be clear, I ain't being ugly. I 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:29.280 didn't go to the gym today either, and that's why 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:31.200 I'm telling you I'm not going to park a mile 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:33.480 away before I start ach Liizon. 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:37.040 Especially when there are other places to park closer. 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:41.680 Of course, it makes no sense unless you don't want 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:44.240 your car to be seen by the other people that 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:45.080 are in that area. 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:49.400 Yes, but do you really do you think it's plausible 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:53.080 that I mean, we have a witness according to these 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:56.920 documents that were released that says that she was driving 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:01.320 on that road north of the Cemetery Harry, just north 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:05.600 of the bridge at just before four pm and she 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:09.000 saw a man in jeans and a jean jacket who 0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:13.200 was muddy and bloody walking towards where that car would 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:13.880 have been parked. 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:17.720 I think you can't ignore it. And I think if 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:21.359 you go from the cemetery to the crime scene to 0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:25.840 the car as the crow flies, it possibly makes some sense. 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:34.919 To me. There is not one female that is going 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:38.520 to listen to this episode that has not had something 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:42.960 happened to her with an unknown male. Either she was 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:47.080 approached weird, he said something weird, he brushed up against 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:49.280 her where you know, he touched her butt. 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:51.520 You just gave her a weird vibe, gave. 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.879 Her a weird vibe. All of us have had that happen, 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:59.679 and sometimes even more overtly something has occurred. How many 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:04.399 full videotape Almost none. So here's what this meant to me. 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:09.880 You've got a fourteen year old girl that videotaped this man. 0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:16.240 I believe something overtly happened before. I believe he passed them, 0:23:16.520 --> 0:23:20.160 said something, showed them something, did something. And then when 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:24.600 he turned around is when she knew this is not 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:28.560 good and started to video him. If you look at 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:32.880 the photograph they released early on, he's to the right 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:36.560 of that bridge. He's way more to the right. When 0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:39.480 I was going to walk on that bridge, baby, let 0:23:39.560 --> 0:23:44.399 me tell you something. Dead center with my arms out right, 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:47.000 I am not trying to fall. I'm not trying to trip. 0:23:48.200 --> 0:23:51.520 He's so far over it looks to me like his 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:55.679 feet and his hips are turned coming back in. I 0:23:55.720 --> 0:23:59.040