Speaker 1: One of my best childhood friends was Tim, and his
Speaker 1: backyard backed up to my backyard, so all we had
Speaker 1: to do to get together was climb over the fence.
Speaker 1: Tim was always planning some types of adventure for us,
Speaker 1: making rafts like huck fins so we could try to
Speaker 1: cross Massingale lake, building ramps to jump our bikes, starting
Speaker 1: fires with magnifying glasses. Once he even showed me just
Speaker 1: how far we could be away from home by cutting
Speaker 1: through the woods, crossing the creek, and coming out on
Speaker 1: the other side. We were literally on the other side
Speaker 1: of town. Tim was always ready to jump off something,
Speaker 1: build something, or take off on one of our escapades.
Speaker 1: I think about my time with him when I think
Speaker 1: about Delphi. In this case, two young kids heading out
Speaker 1: on an adventure, and it occurs to me what could
Speaker 1: have been what should have been. Monday February thirteenth, twenty seventeen,
Speaker 1: Liberty Germans and Abigail Williams went missing. They went missing
Speaker 1: in Delphi, Indiana, off the high Bridge. Law enforcement and
Speaker 1: family searched through the ninth February fourteenth. The next day,
Speaker 1: law enforcement and volunteers continued their search, and during that
Speaker 1: search their bodies were found. February fifteenth, law enforcement reveals
Speaker 1: that Libby's phone contained images of the suspected killer. The
Speaker 1: girls were found half a mile from the bridge on
Speaker 1: the property of a man by the name of Ronald Logan.
Speaker 1: Twenty second, twenty seventeen, law enforcement release the infamous audio
Speaker 1: that we've all heard, where we believe the killer says
Speaker 1: down the Hill. July seventeenth, twenty seventeen, law enforcement releases
Speaker 1: the first sketch of the suspect. April twenty second, twenty nineteen,
Speaker 1: the Indiana State Police release a second sketch, the second
Speaker 1: Sketches of a younger man. October twenty sixth, twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: law enforcement arrest fifty year old Richard Allen of Delphi
Speaker 1: for these murders. We have somebody with us today that's
Speaker 1: going to help fill in some of the gaps and
Speaker 1: paint a better picture of what occurred there and where
Speaker 1: we are now, y'all. We got Barbara McDonald with us
Speaker 1: for over seven years. She was a senior writer at HLN.
Speaker 1: She is the co host, writer and producer, and I
Speaker 1: want you all to get that a co host, a writer,
Speaker 1: and producer of the podcast Down the Hill and I
Speaker 1: can tell you if I'm doing a podcast how she
Speaker 1: does all that, I don't know. The most important thing
Speaker 1: to me when I think of Barbara is the fact
Speaker 1: that she spent six weeks in Delphi, own her own
Speaker 1: time and own her own dime. Now she may not
Speaker 1: tell you that, but I'm going to tell you that
Speaker 1: because she took her own time and her own money,
Speaker 1: not to go to Greece, not to go to Paris,
Speaker 1: not to go to some all inclusive place for you
Speaker 1: can stay naked for a week. She went to Delphi,
Speaker 1: Indiana because this case meant that much to her that
Speaker 1: these two young girls thirteen and fourteen were murdered in
Speaker 1: a place that arguably most of us had never heard of.
Speaker 1: But that's where she went. She used her intellect, her
Speaker 1: journalistic skills, and her vast network to investigate, advocate, and
Speaker 1: assist on this case. Now she has also graciously helped
Speaker 1: me on numerous cases again in her spare time. Like
Speaker 1: she's got any but she is a solid part of
Speaker 1: my Zone seven. I am so happy to welcome Barbara McDonald.
Speaker 2: What a nice introduction. Thank you so much. I'm so
Speaker 2: thrilled to be here today talking to you. About a
Speaker 2: case that I know means so much to both of us.
Speaker 2: It's really gotten under our skin. The family members have
Speaker 2: become part of our heart. You know, hopefully we are
Speaker 2: about to see justice for Abby and Libby.
Speaker 3: It's time.
Speaker 1: It is absolutely time. And you're right. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't think you can spend two minutes with Kelsey German
Speaker 1: that you just don't fall in love with her.
Speaker 2: There's so many wonderful members of both families. And you
Speaker 2: know what I go back to all the time is
Speaker 2: these were two girls who are absolutely loved and cared
Speaker 2: for by their family, and were important members of their
Speaker 2: families and had bright futures ahead of them, and we're
Speaker 2: going to grow up and do wonderful things. They both
Speaker 2: had goals, they both had dreams. They wanted to make
Speaker 2: a difference in the world, and they probably would have,
Speaker 2: and unfortunately today we're talking about, you know, the worst
Speaker 2: thing that happened to these families.
Speaker 1: You know, and Kelsey had mentioned to me that Libby
Speaker 1: liked law enforcement and detective work and had sort of
Speaker 1: the little fascination with it. And it strikes me that
Speaker 1: here own arguably one of the most highlighted cold cases
Speaker 1: that we've had in the last five years, that Libby
Speaker 1: is the one that gave us the best piece of
Speaker 1: evidence right out of the gate. She did that.
Speaker 2: You know, I often wonder if she knew just how
Speaker 2: significant that action was. You know, it's hard to go
Speaker 2: into those moments and think about exactly what they were
Speaker 2: thinking and processing as the events were unfolding. But the
Speaker 2: bravery that she showed to take that phone and try
Speaker 2: to get something that she could leave to say this
Speaker 2: is what happened just before the end. And I certainly
Speaker 2: hope that as this prosecution moves forward that they have
Speaker 2: all the pieces that they need that they're able to
Speaker 2: make the case they want to make. They have charged
Speaker 2: this man, Richard Allen, with a very very serious crime,
Speaker 2: the broad daylight murder of two little girls. As his
Speaker 2: case makes its way through the justice system, there's pieces
Speaker 2: that are coming out through documents released by the court.
Speaker 2: But you know, we should all want this man to
Speaker 2: get a fair trial, because if he gets a fair trial,
Speaker 2: Abby and Libby get a fair trial, and that's what
Speaker 2: we want. We want justice for these two precious girls.
Speaker 1: I have never heard it put that way, Barbara, but
Speaker 1: I'm going to start using that if he gets a
Speaker 1: fair trial, they get a fair trial.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and ultimately that you know, there's so many people
Speaker 2: who watch this case, and I've really watched recently, especially
Speaker 2: with the release of the latest round of documents of
Speaker 2: one hundred and eighteen documents that were released by the
Speaker 2: court publicly. There's information in there that some people are
Speaker 2: grabbing onto, going, aha, this is the piece of evidence
Speaker 2: that proves that he did this.
Speaker 3: We're not there yet.
Speaker 2: He has been charged, and we should all want to
Speaker 2: see this trial play out and see the evidence presented
Speaker 2: in court by the people who collected it, by the
Speaker 2: people who tested it, by the experts who analyze the results,
Speaker 2: by the witnesses. Hear what the prosecution is saying about
Speaker 2: all of that, as well as here what the defense
Speaker 2: says about it, and the holes that they try to
Speaker 2: poke in all of the evidence and facts that the
Speaker 2: prosecution is going to present, and then come to a
Speaker 2: decision about is this the man and has the state
Speaker 2: proven its case. I don't want to pass judgment at
Speaker 2: this point on whether Richard Allen is guilty or not
Speaker 2: of this crime, but I want to see him get
Speaker 2: that fair trial. I want to see the evidence presented.
Speaker 2: I want to see it picked apart. I want to
Speaker 2: hear what various experts say about the validity of this
Speaker 2: element or that element, or this test or that test.
Speaker 2: I want to hear what the witnesses have to say,
Speaker 2: because in the documents that have been released, you know,
Speaker 2: some of their statements are contradictory. They don't really match
Speaker 2: up exactly some of them. There's some similarities there, but
Speaker 2: some of them disagree on things like his hair color
Speaker 2: and his height and all of that matters. So I'm
Speaker 2: really looking forward to that day in court. The trial
Speaker 2: is scheduled for January of twenty twenty four. Hard to
Speaker 2: say if it's going to actually happen then, as you know,
Speaker 2: a lot of things can happen, especially in a high
Speaker 2: profile case. So you know, I want to reserve judgment,
Speaker 2: and I would hope that more people would be willing
Speaker 2: to do that as well.
Speaker 1: No, I think that's valid, And if you want to
Speaker 1: look at things that are contradictory, you don't have to
Speaker 1: look any further than the two composites that they put out. Indeed,
Speaker 1: So you know, I think it's valid what you're saying.
Speaker 1: And again I tell people all the time it's so
Speaker 1: nice to have people that kind of keep you grounded,
Speaker 1: remind you this is how the system works, how it
Speaker 1: should work, how we should all want it to work.
Speaker 1: One of my mantras is, you cannot take away walk
Speaker 1: in that scene. You cannot. I don't think over emphasize
Speaker 1: the importance of going to that scene. And here's what
Speaker 1: I tell people all the time. If I'm at a
Speaker 1: and there's some woods, it is as important to me
Speaker 1: where the body is as it is what's on the
Speaker 1: other side of those woods. Because on the other side
Speaker 1: of those woods, if you've got a cemetery, so to speak,
Speaker 1: or a liquor store or an apartment complex, that matters
Speaker 1: to me. Because this body disposal site was selected, it
Speaker 1: was selected before the murder. Why did the killer pick it?
Speaker 1: That's going to tell you about him. So you got
Speaker 1: to spend six weeks boots on the ground tell us
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: A highlight of my coverage of this case, for sure,
Speaker 2: was to be able to really blend in as much
Speaker 2: as I could to the Delphi community. You know, it's
Speaker 2: a charming, quaint little town. Delphi is small, only about
Speaker 2: three thousand people. It's the county seat of Carroll County,
Speaker 2: and Carroll County only has about twenty or twenty two
Speaker 2: thousand people, so we're.
Speaker 3: Talking about very rural area.
Speaker 2: It's about an hour and a half northwest of Indianapolis,
Speaker 2: near Lafayette, which is where home of Purdue University. So
Speaker 2: much larger population there, but still not a huge, huge area.
Speaker 2: A lot of farmland, a lot of agriculture, a lot
Speaker 2: of people living very rural lives. And this is a
Speaker 2: small community, you know, it's not the kind of community
Speaker 2: that has a target, you know, a movie theater or
Speaker 2: a shopping mall or anything like that. And so for
Speaker 2: two little girls to decide on a day off from
Speaker 2: school to go walk the trails, that's a pretty common
Speaker 2: activity there. And I have walked those trails so many
Speaker 2: times in all kinds of different weather from probably I
Speaker 2: think you have done this as well, Cheryl, from like
Speaker 2: fifteen degree weather with snow on the ground to ninety
Speaker 2: five degree weather in the middle of summer. And what
Speaker 2: I have seen is people use the trails. This is
Speaker 2: an area where people go and walk. You know, this
Speaker 2: isn't a community that necessarily has sidewalks and neighborhoods and
Speaker 2: places that people can walk throughout the regular part of
Speaker 2: the community. Downtown they have that, but where most people
Speaker 2: live that doesn't exist. So I can totally see a
Speaker 2: world where you know, you're out running errands, you want
Speaker 2: to go for a walk, let's stop by the trails.
Speaker 2: That's what they're there for. And it's a really beautiful
Speaker 2: area of land. The Deer Creek runs through there, and
Speaker 2: parts of it are just absolutely beautiful, and you know,
Speaker 2: the deer and the wild animals and the various birds
Speaker 2: and the trees. The area is very sloping, thus the
Speaker 2: down the hill, so that gives you a lot of
Speaker 2: different types of land and plants, and it's just really
Speaker 2: a gem of the community. And every time I've been
Speaker 2: out there, I've seen people using the trails for recreation.
Speaker 2: It is not an uncommon thing. Kids go out there
Speaker 2: to go for a walk, Adults go out there to
Speaker 2: go for a walk. I've talked to people who have
Speaker 2: ridden ATVs across the Moon on High Bridge when it
Speaker 2: was in its you know, disrepair before they just updated
Speaker 2: it and added a walking platform onto the bridge to
Speaker 2: make it safer for people who do go out there
Speaker 2: to enjoy it. But it's a really wonderful place, and
Speaker 2: I remember talking with Becky Patty early on and she
Speaker 2: was like, you know, when the girls wanted to go
Speaker 2: out there that day, they had the day off from school,
Speaker 2: and I thought, well, heck, that's better than them sitting
Speaker 2: in front of the TV all day.
Speaker 3: And that was the attitude, you know.
Speaker 2: And you were talking at the top of the show
Speaker 2: about your friend Tim and the adventures you would go
Speaker 2: on in your neighborhood. I grew up the same way.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: We were the kind of kids that were of that
Speaker 2: generation where your mom kicked you basically out of the
Speaker 2: house at nine am and said, don't come back till
Speaker 2: the lights are on in the neighborhood, and you know,
Speaker 2: we were on our I going all over the place.
Speaker 2: I mean, when I think back to how many miles
Speaker 2: away from home I would routinely travel as a seven,
Speaker 2: eight nine year old, it's pretty surprising compared to today's
Speaker 2: standards of how parents parent their children. So I relate
Speaker 2: a lot to Abby and Libby going out there on
Speaker 2: the bridge wanting to take pictures of the bridge. When
Speaker 2: I was thirteen, I was a shutter bug. I had
Speaker 2: my camera, I took it everywhere.
Speaker 3: I did the same kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: And this was two girls going out in broad daylight
Speaker 2: in the middle of the afternoon. My mom always said,
Speaker 2: go with somebody. You know, there's safety in numbers. As
Speaker 2: long as you're not alone, you'll be okay.
Speaker 1: And as you say, broad daylight with other people around.
Speaker 1: This was not some deserted deep in the wood spot
Speaker 1: where they were going. They were going where there were
Speaker 1: tons of people hiking and biking and picnicing and everything else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, people go there and fish and you know, just
Speaker 2: go out and enjoy the fresh air and the scenery.
Speaker 2: And you're right, it's not in a secluded area by
Speaker 2: any means. There are homes, not a lot of homes,
Speaker 2: but there are homes near the area within you know,
Speaker 2: one or two miles. Downtown Delphi is only about a
Speaker 2: mile or two away, so it's not far at all.
Speaker 2: And you know, it's just really unfortunate what happened out
Speaker 2: there that day and how it has really changed this
Speaker 2: entire community. It blew up, as you know, into such
Speaker 2: a media firestorm. When it first happened. People were calling
Speaker 2: it the Snapchat killing because of the video that Liddy
Speaker 2: had got on her phone.
Speaker 3: It made the news.
Speaker 2: All over the world. You know, I remember talking with
Speaker 2: law enforcement officers who were fielding calls from Japan and Finland,
Speaker 2: and I think even a lot Via. Somebody in Latvia
Speaker 2: called the Indiana State Police wanting information on the case.
Speaker 2: So it definitely touched a nerve with true crime audiences
Speaker 2: all over the world. And here we are now with
Speaker 2: somebody in custody facing trial, and for a long time
Speaker 2: it didn't really look like we were going to get there,
Speaker 2: but here we are.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, when I first got involved, and they
Speaker 1: were saying, you know, it could be a transient person,
Speaker 1: it could be a truck driver. So when I first
Speaker 1: went there, I told Kelsey and them, don't tell me anything.
Speaker 1: Don't tell me where the bridge is. Let me see
Speaker 1: if I can find it. Well, there's not like a
Speaker 1: ton of signage like telling you, hey, this is one
Speaker 1: of our cool places to go hang out. And then
Speaker 1: once I kind of got near, there's an overpath that
Speaker 1: has the bridge's name on it. And so when you
Speaker 1: turn and go under that underpath, you're still like, where
Speaker 1: the heck is this bridge? Right? So I was, and
Speaker 1: I finally gave up and I said, Okay, you're going
Speaker 1: to have to tell me and Kelthy said, well, here's
Speaker 1: where you park, Barbara. I would have never seen that
Speaker 1: turn off. It was like gravel, but it was kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, in the midst of some growth and other
Speaker 1: things on the side of the road. So then when
Speaker 1: I finally pulled up there, I could see, yes, there's
Speaker 1: a place to park, and there's this beautiful little blue
Speaker 1: bridge or walk bridge. But then you still have a
Speaker 1: good bit to go on this trail and you have
Speaker 1: to go for a pretty good distance before all of
Speaker 1: a sudden you just turn and there's this bridge. It's
Speaker 1: almost like wow, and it's bigger and taller and longer
Speaker 1: than you think in your head before you get there.
Speaker 1: So the first thing that I knew is there ain't
Speaker 1: no way somebody just came upon this bridge that was
Speaker 1: traveling through here.
Speaker 2: Not happening absolutely, And you know what we had the
Speaker 2: first we had the same experience as you. The first
Speaker 2: time that we went to Delphi. I was with Susan
Speaker 2: Hendrix from HLA and two shorhotographers and we did the
Speaker 2: same thing with Kelsey. We said, don't tell us where
Speaker 2: it is, We're going to try to find it. And
Speaker 2: four of us with four smartphones could not find this bridge,
Speaker 2: could not figure out how to get to where we
Speaker 2: wanted to go, and I finally had to call Kelsey
Speaker 2: and have her direct us there.
Speaker 3: And I had the.
Speaker 2: Same thought, there was no way this was somebody driving
Speaker 2: through and going hmmm, maybe I'll just stop there. This
Speaker 2: had to have been somebody who knew this was here.
Speaker 2: I've even talked to people who've lived in Delphi for many,
Speaker 2: many years and didn't know these trails were there until
Speaker 2: this happened.
Speaker 1: I remember telling Doug Carter, he's right there, He's within
Speaker 1: five miles of that bridge. He has to live there.
Speaker 1: So again, if you're a cold case investigator, you know
Speaker 1: that nine times out of ten, his name's already in
Speaker 1: the case file. So you've got to go back, look
Speaker 1: at every name and make sure you can throw that
Speaker 1: person out. So our advice immediately got to have fresh
Speaker 1: eyes on this thing. You got to start over. And
Speaker 1: I know, me and a group of detectives and csis
Speaker 1: and psychopathologists, we all volunteered to do that for them,
Speaker 1: but it was that imperative I will come there and
Speaker 1: do it, because that's how confident I am. He's right there.
Speaker 2: And you know, when you get to know the area
Speaker 2: and you walk around it. Where the girls were found
Speaker 2: compared to where they were approached on the bridge, seems
Speaker 2: to me to have been a deliberate effort on the
Speaker 2: part of the killer to get somewhere more secluded. I
Speaker 2: think where they were found is probably one of the
Speaker 2: most secluded areas that you could go to in that
Speaker 2: general area. Agreed, where you're going to be out of sight,
Speaker 2: perhaps out of sound range from anybody else who might
Speaker 2: be using the trails or the park.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent agree. And there's even enough of a
Speaker 1: ravine that if you're laying there or prepping leaving items,
Speaker 1: people looking up can't see it. So there's no doubt
Speaker 1: in my mind that location was picked before.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The other thing that's interesting, and I don't hear a
Speaker 2: lot of people talk about this, but I think that
Speaker 2: is an area that also provides if you're familiar with
Speaker 2: the area, I think that area provides multiple ways to
Speaker 2: get out. So if you are at this scene and
Speaker 2: you're doing something you shouldn't be doing and somebody begins
Speaker 2: to come near you, you would have plenty of notice
Speaker 2: that they're approaching you before they would know you were there,
Speaker 2: and you would have multiple ways to get out of.
Speaker 1: There, correct. And the first thing that kind of resonated
Speaker 1: with me is they were slowly giving us information. Is
Speaker 1: the one car that was parked way off? And then
Speaker 1: you look at the video and you know, I tried
Speaker 1: to again gently say to people, this person does not
Speaker 1: look like he goes to the gym every day. And
Speaker 1: the reason that is relevant is because who is going
Speaker 1: to park further away to then start hiking? And again,
Speaker 1: I want to be clear, I ain't being ugly. I
Speaker 1: didn't go to the gym today either, and that's why
Speaker 1: I'm telling you I'm not going to park a mile
Speaker 1: away before I start ach Liizon.
Speaker 2: Especially when there are other places to park closer.
Speaker 1: Of course, it makes no sense unless you don't want
Speaker 1: your car to be seen by the other people that
Speaker 1: are in that area.
Speaker 2: Yes, but do you really do you think it's plausible
Speaker 2: that I mean, we have a witness according to these
Speaker 2: documents that were released that says that she was driving
Speaker 2: on that road north of the Cemetery Harry, just north
Speaker 2: of the bridge at just before four pm and she
Speaker 2: saw a man in jeans and a jean jacket who
Speaker 2: was muddy and bloody walking towards where that car would
Speaker 2: have been parked.
Speaker 1: I think you can't ignore it. And I think if
Speaker 1: you go from the cemetery to the crime scene to
Speaker 1: the car as the crow flies, it possibly makes some sense.
Speaker 1: To me. There is not one female that is going
Speaker 1: to listen to this episode that has not had something
Speaker 1: happened to her with an unknown male. Either she was
Speaker 1: approached weird, he said something weird, he brushed up against
Speaker 1: her where you know, he touched her butt.
Speaker 3: You just gave her a weird vibe, gave.
Speaker 1: Her a weird vibe. All of us have had that happen,
Speaker 1: and sometimes even more overtly something has occurred. How many
Speaker 1: full videotape Almost none. So here's what this meant to me.
Speaker 1: You've got a fourteen year old girl that videotaped this man.
Speaker 1: I believe something overtly happened before. I believe he passed them,
Speaker 1: said something, showed them something, did something. And then when
Speaker 1: he turned around is when she knew this is not
Speaker 1: good and started to video him. If you look at
Speaker 1: the photograph they released early on, he's to the right
Speaker 1: of that bridge. He's way more to the right. When
Speaker 1: I was going to walk on that bridge, baby, let
Speaker 1: me tell you something. Dead center with my arms out right,
Speaker 1: I am not trying to fall. I'm not trying to trip.
Speaker 1: He's so far over it looks to me like his
Speaker 1: feet and his hips are turned coming back in. I
Speaker 1: believe he's turning around, That's what I think. And he's
Speaker 1: got his hands in his And that's another thing that
Speaker 1: I expressed to Doug Carter. There's no way he's not
Speaker 1: going to have his arms out, just a natural way
Speaker 1: to protect yourself walking on these pielines that have, as
Speaker 1: you know, large gaps in some places where it looks rotten,
Speaker 1: and I just don't see somebody traversing that way to
Speaker 1: the side of it and their hands in their pockets.
Speaker 3: I agree that he was probably turning around.
Speaker 2: I absolutely agree that something happened before the camera came on.
Speaker 2: There was a reason why she was concerned already, and
Speaker 2: then she started recording, and we don't know.
Speaker 3: What that is.
Speaker 1: So I know you have put so much time and
Speaker 1: effort into this case. So anytime something is released, some
Speaker 1: bit of information or a fact or a piece of evidence,
Speaker 1: I know you just start reeling. But when you found
Speaker 1: out that owned the video, when one of the girls
Speaker 1: mentioned the word gone. What was your reaction.
Speaker 2: My reaction might be different than a lot of people's.
Speaker 2: I am not entirely sure that the jury is going
Speaker 2: to hear that as clearly as that was stated in
Speaker 2: the probable Cause. I think that there could be some
Speaker 2: debate about whether or not that word is used. The
Speaker 2: audio on that video is not clear. Police have mentioned
Speaker 2: several times that they had to clean up just what
Speaker 2: they presented to us publicly, which was down the hill,
Speaker 2: and then they amended it to guys down the Hill,
Speaker 2: And my understanding is that there was even some debate
Speaker 2: about whether those words are correct, and there are some
Speaker 2: people who listen to it and hear other things, but
Speaker 2: I think that is more clear than what is said by.
Speaker 3: One of the girls.
Speaker 2: A lot of people who have speculated for a long
Speaker 2: time me included that perhaps he did have a gun
Speaker 2: and showed that to them on the bridge to help
Speaker 2: get that early control of these two girls physically, and
Speaker 2: that's certainly not out of the realm of possibilities. One
Speaker 2: of the things I heard recently was that somebody was
Speaker 2: saying that on the video you can hear the gun cocking,
Speaker 2: and you know, there was the unspent ejected shellcasing that
Speaker 2: was found at the crime scene between the bodies. Well,
Speaker 2: the video was taken on the bridge, So if he's
Speaker 2: cocking the gun on the bridge, I don't know that
Speaker 2: that explains the shellcasing found a quarter of a mile
Speaker 2: away between the bodies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a brilliant.
Speaker 2: Point, depending on exactly where that action happened on the
Speaker 2: bridge or whether he had just stepped off of it.
Speaker 2: It could have been in the gravel at the end
Speaker 2: of the bridge. But if he was still on the bridge,
Speaker 2: there's a huge possibility that round would have ended up
Speaker 2: in the water.
Speaker 1: It certainly wouldn't have wound up between the two of
Speaker 1: them a half a mile away exactly.
Speaker 2: So did he cock the gun again later and that
Speaker 2: is what led to the unspent shell casing being found
Speaker 2: at the scene.
Speaker 3: You know, we don't know.
Speaker 2: We also don't know yet if there is any other
Speaker 2: evidence tying that bullet or gun to anything else. You know,
Speaker 2: was his fingerprint on that gun, I mean on that bullet.
Speaker 2: Did they find a partial print on it? Does that
Speaker 2: match in any way to him? Was there DNA on it?
Speaker 2: I have a lot of questions about that, And since
Speaker 2: you know, the latest document dump says basically, the documents
Speaker 2: contain information that there was a edged weapon used in
Speaker 2: these murders. They were not killed by a gunshot. So
Speaker 2: I think that further waters it down a little bit.
Speaker 1: For me.
Speaker 3: I'm very curious in hearing.
Speaker 2: Much more about that shell casing and what all the
Speaker 2: various experts have to say about it, what test was used,
Speaker 2: how reliable that test is.
Speaker 3: I want to see all of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would love to believe that they got that
Speaker 1: thing to Francine Bardol and that they do have his
Speaker 1: DNA off of it, but I haven't seen anything that
Speaker 1: would suggest that.
Speaker 2: Right, And you know, we don't know all the information
Speaker 2: the prosecution has, right they put up these documents that
Speaker 2: the court did, the judge approved that, but that's still
Speaker 2: not the complete case. So oh yeah, there could be
Speaker 2: a lot more testing, a lot more evidence. There could
Speaker 2: be a lot more evidence pointing directly at Richard Allen,
Speaker 2: but we don't know that yet.
Speaker 1: But we do know that there's specific cell phone information,
Speaker 1: firearm information, electronics, clothing.
Speaker 3: He placed himself at.
Speaker 1: The scene, girl, you just beat me to it.
Speaker 3: He volunteered that information.
Speaker 4: Yes, you know what he says to police about his
Speaker 4: whereabouts while he was out there seems to match what
Speaker 4: the witnesses are reporting they saw, So yeah, there is
Speaker 4: some potential corroboration there.
Speaker 1: And then we're going to have you know, his computer,
Speaker 1: things he researched, things he looked at. We have already had,
Speaker 1: you know, statements from the family saying that when they
Speaker 1: were in CVS, he would say things to them, you
Speaker 1: know that maybe in hindsight or a little creepy, whereas
Speaker 1: when they were first said to him, it didn't really
Speaker 1: mean that much. So you know, who knows. But I
Speaker 1: think there is so much more to weed through, you know.
Speaker 2: That's the other reason why I want Richard Allen to
Speaker 2: have a fair trial, because he's found have been through
Speaker 2: so much already and just waiting six plus years for
Speaker 2: an arrest that was tortuous for them, and now to
Speaker 2: begin this judicial process you know that could play out
Speaker 2: for years when you're talking about convictions and appeals and
Speaker 2: you know, delays, and this could be a process that
Speaker 2: takes another couple of years. And I want them to
Speaker 2: be able to at least know who did this, potentially
Speaker 2: why it happened, so that they can move on with
Speaker 2: their grieving, not that that brings closure, not that that brings.
Speaker 3: The end of anything.
Speaker 2: But as I think Mike Patty says, a lot, you know,
Speaker 2: it would end a chapter right and allow them to
Speaker 2: open up a new chapter that perhaps could have more
Speaker 2: healing in it.
Speaker 1: Well, I think for the whole community, having the who
Speaker 1: takes away a lot of fear, takes away a lot
Speaker 1: of this guy still walking around among us, you know.
Speaker 1: But I tell you one thing that I am hopeful
Speaker 1: with these alleged five confessions. I hope he said something
Speaker 1: that only the killer would know.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. That's the other thing. You know.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people who are saying, oh, he confessed,
Speaker 2: so it's a done deal. Well, not necessarily. We need
Speaker 2: to hear what he said and whether or not he
Speaker 2: offered any information that only the killer would know.
Speaker 1: Like if he said that, yeah, I took her yellow underwear.
Speaker 1: Did he give a color that we didn't know? Did
Speaker 1: he say you know exactly how he murdered them. I've
Speaker 1: always thought it was with a straight edge weapon. I
Speaker 1: thought it was most likely their throats. I don't know that.
Speaker 1: Did he say it because the killer would know?
Speaker 2: And did he offer anything like we haven't heard anything
Speaker 2: about who might have been attacked first, or how many
Speaker 2: wounds might have been on each victim.
Speaker 3: Did he give information about.
Speaker 1: That exactly how we staged them?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, the defense is arguing that, well,
Speaker 2: you know, these are incoherent statements, ramblings of a man
Speaker 2: who's degrading mentally. So I'd like to hear the call
Speaker 2: where he allegedly confesses five times to his wife and
Speaker 2: what was the context of that. Was he like, hey,
Speaker 2: I got to tell you, like I did this, Like
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get out of this trouble.
Speaker 3: I did this? Or was it just you know, fine,
Speaker 3: I did it. I did it. I did it.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of variation, and I want
Speaker 2: to hear what he said and what she said, and
Speaker 2: what the conversation was leading up to it.
Speaker 3: I want to know all of that.
Speaker 1: The ex prosecutor mentioned to me that there were three
Speaker 1: different signatures in his opinion, we have all understood and
Speaker 1: I readily accept that there was staging at that scene.
Speaker 1: What is it did he say it? Would he give
Speaker 1: any information that would make us go, oh, I get it.
Speaker 1: It has to be him, because this was never released
Speaker 1: any last.
Speaker 2: Thoughts, you know, Mac, I think, at the end of
Speaker 2: the day, this is a case about Abby and Libby,
Speaker 2: and a lot of the headlines right now are focused
Speaker 2: on Richard Allen, as they need to be, because there's
Speaker 2: a lot of news happening with the case. But this
Speaker 2: crime was about two little girls thirteen and fourteen years old.
Speaker 2: It would be twenty now. Libby would be approaching her
Speaker 2: twenty first birthday later this year, and just think of
Speaker 2: all that They missed prom driver's license, boyfriends, college. You know,
Speaker 2: Libby missed seeing her sister, her best friend, her big sister,
Speaker 2: get me married. She's missing her first niece, Kelsey is having
Speaker 2: a baby, and there's just so much loss from just
Speaker 2: this horrendous attack. And whoever did this should absolutely be
Speaker 2: caught and they should be punished. But just remember Abby
Speaker 2: and Libby. They deserved a lot more than they got,
Speaker 2: and I really wish we could have seen what they
Speaker 2: would have done with their lives.
Speaker 1: I could not add to that if I wanted to
Speaker 1: your podcast Down the Hill. I listened to the entire thing.
Speaker 1: It was one of the most comprehensive, all inclusive, three
Speaker 1: sixty view that I've ever listened to.
Speaker 2: Oh thank you. Can I give a quick shout out
Speaker 2: to the team that worked with me on that, Dan
Speaker 2: and Drew. I mean, it was an amazing experience on
Speaker 2: my part, absolutely a professional highlight to have been teamed
Speaker 2: with such amazing professionals and to be able to create
Speaker 2: that work. And I'll forever be proud of it.
Speaker 1: Well, not only can he give a shout out, I'm
Speaker 1: going to second it. And I'll tell you in a
Speaker 1: small world, little action. You and I are talking in
Speaker 1: Delphi the morning of the press conference beforehand, and then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, behind me, I hear Cheryl like
Speaker 1: question mark, and I turn and I turn around and
Speaker 1: it's Drew. And here's the great thing just for people
Speaker 1: to know. When I used to do the Nancy Gray
Speaker 1: Show and we would have to go to see an
Speaker 1: n Drew would sometimes babysit Hunting Caroline for the hour
Speaker 1: that I was on air.
Speaker 3: He's such a great guy.
Speaker 1: Oh, he's tremendous, and Hunting Caroline used to have such
Speaker 1: a great time of him. He would entertain them and
Speaker 1: that's not easy to do to they were little at time.
Speaker 1: You're talking about, you know, fifteen twenty years ago, And
Speaker 1: I mean he taught in that paper football game he
Speaker 1: would play that sounds like Drew, oh my gosh. And
Speaker 1: they would always have some great story to tell, some
Speaker 1: game he taught them. So, yes, you can brag on them,
Speaker 1: but that I want people to understand again. You know,
Speaker 1: there's all these talents that people have that they brought
Speaker 1: to this thing. It's not just hey, I'm going to
Speaker 1: do a podcast. You brought everything you had to it,
Speaker 1: even your travels. So did Drew.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And Drew and Dan and I we still talk
Speaker 2: about the case all the time. We share things with
Speaker 2: each other all the time. You know, they're my sounding
Speaker 2: board and.
Speaker 3: It's it's just.
Speaker 2: This case either gets under your skin or it doesn't.
Speaker 2: And it absolutely got under theirs. So they joined me
Speaker 2: in my obsession, and you know, for probably about nine
Speaker 2: months we worked exclusively on that.
Speaker 1: Well, Barbara, I can't thank you enough for being here
Speaker 1: and sharing your genius and your expertise. And I'm just
Speaker 1: going to give you the final word.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for this chance to talk about
Speaker 2: them and this case. Like everyone else, I'll be watching
Speaker 2: to see how this plays out in court.
Speaker 1: Now all I'll go end Zone seven the way that
Speaker 1: I always do with a quote. From now on, it
Speaker 1: is our task to suspect each and everyone among us.
Speaker 1: That's from Agatha Christie's book. And then there were none.
Speaker 1: I'm a Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven.