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Speaker 1: One of my best childhood friends was Tim, and his

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Speaker 1: backyard backed up to my backyard, so all we had

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Speaker 1: to do to get together was climb over the fence.

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Speaker 1: Tim was always planning some types of adventure for us,

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Speaker 1: making rafts like huck fins so we could try to

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Speaker 1: cross Massingale lake, building ramps to jump our bikes, starting

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Speaker 1: fires with magnifying glasses. Once he even showed me just

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Speaker 1: how far we could be away from home by cutting

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Speaker 1: through the woods, crossing the creek, and coming out on

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Speaker 1: the other side. We were literally on the other side

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Speaker 1: of town. Tim was always ready to jump off something,

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Speaker 1: build something, or take off on one of our escapades.

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Speaker 1: I think about my time with him when I think

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Speaker 1: about Delphi. In this case, two young kids heading out

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Speaker 1: on an adventure, and it occurs to me what could

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Speaker 1: have been what should have been. Monday February thirteenth, twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 1: Liberty Germans and Abigail Williams went missing. They went missing

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Speaker 1: in Delphi, Indiana, off the high Bridge. Law enforcement and

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Speaker 1: family searched through the ninth February fourteenth. The next day,

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Speaker 1: law enforcement and volunteers continued their search, and during that

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Speaker 1: search their bodies were found. February fifteenth, law enforcement reveals

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Speaker 1: that Libby's phone contained images of the suspected killer. The

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Speaker 1: girls were found half a mile from the bridge on

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Speaker 1: the property of a man by the name of Ronald Logan.

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Speaker 1: Twenty second, twenty seventeen, law enforcement release the infamous audio

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Speaker 1: that we've all heard, where we believe the killer says

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Speaker 1: down the Hill. July seventeenth, twenty seventeen, law enforcement releases

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Speaker 1: the first sketch of the suspect. April twenty second, twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: the Indiana State Police release a second sketch, the second

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Speaker 1: Sketches of a younger man. October twenty sixth, twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 1: law enforcement arrest fifty year old Richard Allen of Delphi

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Speaker 1: for these murders. We have somebody with us today that's

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Speaker 1: going to help fill in some of the gaps and

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Speaker 1: paint a better picture of what occurred there and where

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Speaker 1: we are now, y'all. We got Barbara McDonald with us

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Speaker 1: for over seven years. She was a senior writer at HLN.

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Speaker 1: She is the co host, writer and producer, and I

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Speaker 1: want you all to get that a co host, a writer,

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Speaker 1: and producer of the podcast Down the Hill and I

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Speaker 1: can tell you if I'm doing a podcast how she

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Speaker 1: does all that, I don't know. The most important thing

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Speaker 1: to me when I think of Barbara is the fact

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Speaker 1: that she spent six weeks in Delphi, own her own

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Speaker 1: time and own her own dime. Now she may not

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Speaker 1: tell you that, but I'm going to tell you that

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Speaker 1: because she took her own time and her own money,

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Speaker 1: not to go to Greece, not to go to Paris,

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Speaker 1: not to go to some all inclusive place for you

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Speaker 1: can stay naked for a week. She went to Delphi,

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Speaker 1: Indiana because this case meant that much to her that

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Speaker 1: these two young girls thirteen and fourteen were murdered in

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Speaker 1: a place that arguably most of us had never heard of.

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Speaker 1: But that's where she went. She used her intellect, her

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Speaker 1: journalistic skills, and her vast network to investigate, advocate, and

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Speaker 1: assist on this case. Now she has also graciously helped

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Speaker 1: me on numerous cases again in her spare time. Like

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Speaker 1: she's got any but she is a solid part of

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Speaker 1: my Zone seven. I am so happy to welcome Barbara McDonald.

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Speaker 2: What a nice introduction. Thank you so much. I'm so

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Speaker 2: thrilled to be here today talking to you. About a

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Speaker 2: case that I know means so much to both of us.

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Speaker 2: It's really gotten under our skin. The family members have

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Speaker 2: become part of our heart. You know, hopefully we are

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Speaker 2: about to see justice for Abby and Libby.

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Speaker 3: It's time.

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Speaker 1: It is absolutely time. And you're right. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't think you can spend two minutes with Kelsey German

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Speaker 1: that you just don't fall in love with her.

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Speaker 2: There's so many wonderful members of both families. And you

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Speaker 2: know what I go back to all the time is

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Speaker 2: these were two girls who are absolutely loved and cared

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Speaker 2: for by their family, and were important members of their

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Speaker 2: families and had bright futures ahead of them, and we're

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Speaker 2: going to grow up and do wonderful things. They both

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Speaker 2: had goals, they both had dreams. They wanted to make

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Speaker 2: a difference in the world, and they probably would have,

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Speaker 2: and unfortunately today we're talking about, you know, the worst

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Speaker 2: thing that happened to these families.

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Speaker 1: You know, and Kelsey had mentioned to me that Libby

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Speaker 1: liked law enforcement and detective work and had sort of

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Speaker 1: the little fascination with it. And it strikes me that

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Speaker 1: here own arguably one of the most highlighted cold cases

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Speaker 1: that we've had in the last five years, that Libby

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Speaker 1: is the one that gave us the best piece of

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Speaker 1: evidence right out of the gate. She did that.

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Speaker 2: You know, I often wonder if she knew just how

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Speaker 2: significant that action was. You know, it's hard to go

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Speaker 2: into those moments and think about exactly what they were

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Speaker 2: thinking and processing as the events were unfolding. But the

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Speaker 2: bravery that she showed to take that phone and try

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Speaker 2: to get something that she could leave to say this

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Speaker 2: is what happened just before the end. And I certainly

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Speaker 2: hope that as this prosecution moves forward that they have

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Speaker 2: all the pieces that they need that they're able to

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Speaker 2: make the case they want to make. They have charged

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Speaker 2: this man, Richard Allen, with a very very serious crime,

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Speaker 2: the broad daylight murder of two little girls. As his

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Speaker 2: case makes its way through the justice system, there's pieces

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Speaker 2: that are coming out through documents released by the court.

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Speaker 2: But you know, we should all want this man to

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Speaker 2: get a fair trial, because if he gets a fair trial,

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Speaker 2: Abby and Libby get a fair trial, and that's what

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Speaker 2: we want. We want justice for these two precious girls.

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Speaker 1: I have never heard it put that way, Barbara, but

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Speaker 1: I'm going to start using that if he gets a

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Speaker 1: fair trial, they get a fair trial.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and ultimately that you know, there's so many people

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Speaker 2: who watch this case, and I've really watched recently, especially

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Speaker 2: with the release of the latest round of documents of

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Speaker 2: one hundred and eighteen documents that were released by the

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Speaker 2: court publicly. There's information in there that some people are

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Speaker 2: grabbing onto, going, aha, this is the piece of evidence

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Speaker 2: that proves that he did this.

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Speaker 3: We're not there yet.

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Speaker 2: He has been charged, and we should all want to

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Speaker 2: see this trial play out and see the evidence presented

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Speaker 2: in court by the people who collected it, by the

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Speaker 2: people who tested it, by the experts who analyze the results,

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Speaker 2: by the witnesses. Hear what the prosecution is saying about

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Speaker 2: all of that, as well as here what the defense

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Speaker 2: says about it, and the holes that they try to

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Speaker 2: poke in all of the evidence and facts that the

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Speaker 2: prosecution is going to present, and then come to a

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Speaker 2: decision about is this the man and has the state

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Speaker 2: proven its case. I don't want to pass judgment at

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Speaker 2: this point on whether Richard Allen is guilty or not

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Speaker 2: of this crime, but I want to see him get

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Speaker 2: that fair trial. I want to see the evidence presented.

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Speaker 2: I want to see it picked apart. I want to

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Speaker 2: hear what various experts say about the validity of this

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Speaker 2: element or that element, or this test or that test.

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Speaker 2: I want to hear what the witnesses have to say,

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Speaker 2: because in the documents that have been released, you know,

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Speaker 2: some of their statements are contradictory. They don't really match

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Speaker 2: up exactly some of them. There's some similarities there, but

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Speaker 2: some of them disagree on things like his hair color

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Speaker 2: and his height and all of that matters. So I'm

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Speaker 2: really looking forward to that day in court. The trial

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Speaker 2: is scheduled for January of twenty twenty four. Hard to

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Speaker 2: say if it's going to actually happen then, as you know,

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Speaker 2: a lot of things can happen, especially in a high

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Speaker 2: profile case. So you know, I want to reserve judgment,

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Speaker 2: and I would hope that more people would be willing

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Speaker 2: to do that as well.

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Speaker 1: No, I think that's valid, And if you want to

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Speaker 1: look at things that are contradictory, you don't have to

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Speaker 1: look any further than the two composites that they put out. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: So you know, I think it's valid what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: And again I tell people all the time it's so

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Speaker 1: nice to have people that kind of keep you grounded,

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Speaker 1: remind you this is how the system works, how it

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Speaker 1: should work, how we should all want it to work.

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Speaker 1: One of my mantras is, you cannot take away walk

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Speaker 1: in that scene. You cannot. I don't think over emphasize

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Speaker 1: the importance of going to that scene. And here's what

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Speaker 1: I tell people all the time. If I'm at a

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Speaker 1: and there's some woods, it is as important to me

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Speaker 1: where the body is as it is what's on the

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Speaker 1: other side of those woods. Because on the other side

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Speaker 1: of those woods, if you've got a cemetery, so to speak,

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Speaker 1: or a liquor store or an apartment complex, that matters

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Speaker 1: to me. Because this body disposal site was selected, it

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Speaker 1: was selected before the murder. Why did the killer pick it?

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Speaker 1: That's going to tell you about him. So you got

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Speaker 1: to spend six weeks boots on the ground tell us

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Speaker 1: about that.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: A highlight of my coverage of this case, for sure,

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Speaker 2: was to be able to really blend in as much

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Speaker 2: as I could to the Delphi community. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: a charming, quaint little town. Delphi is small, only about

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Speaker 2: three thousand people. It's the county seat of Carroll County,

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Speaker 2: and Carroll County only has about twenty or twenty two

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Speaker 2: thousand people, so we're.

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Speaker 3: Talking about very rural area.

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Speaker 2: It's about an hour and a half northwest of Indianapolis,

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Speaker 2: near Lafayette, which is where home of Purdue University. So

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Speaker 2: much larger population there, but still not a huge, huge area.

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Speaker 2: A lot of farmland, a lot of agriculture, a lot

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Speaker 2: of people living very rural lives. And this is a

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Speaker 2: small community, you know, it's not the kind of community

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Speaker 2: that has a target, you know, a movie theater or

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Speaker 2: a shopping mall or anything like that. And so for

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Speaker 2: two little girls to decide on a day off from

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Speaker 2: school to go walk the trails, that's a pretty common

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Speaker 2: activity there. And I have walked those trails so many

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Speaker 2: times in all kinds of different weather from probably I

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Speaker 2: think you have done this as well, Cheryl, from like

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Speaker 2: fifteen degree weather with snow on the ground to ninety

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Speaker 2: five degree weather in the middle of summer. And what

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Speaker 2: I have seen is people use the trails. This is

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Speaker 2: an area where people go and walk. You know, this

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Speaker 2: isn't a community that necessarily has sidewalks and neighborhoods and

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Speaker 2: places that people can walk throughout the regular part of

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Speaker 2: the community. Downtown they have that, but where most people

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Speaker 2: live that doesn't exist. So I can totally see a

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Speaker 2: world where you know, you're out running errands, you want

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Speaker 2: to go for a walk, let's stop by the trails.

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Speaker 2: That's what they're there for. And it's a really beautiful

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Speaker 2: area of land. The Deer Creek runs through there, and

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Speaker 2: parts of it are just absolutely beautiful, and you know,

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Speaker 2: the deer and the wild animals and the various birds

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Speaker 2: and the trees. The area is very sloping, thus the

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Speaker 2: down the hill, so that gives you a lot of

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Speaker 2: different types of land and plants, and it's just really

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Speaker 2: a gem of the community. And every time I've been

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Speaker 2: out there, I've seen people using the trails for recreation.

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Speaker 2: It is not an uncommon thing. Kids go out there

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Speaker 2: to go for a walk, Adults go out there to

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Speaker 2: go for a walk. I've talked to people who have

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Speaker 2: ridden ATVs across the Moon on High Bridge when it

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Speaker 2: was in its you know, disrepair before they just updated

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Speaker 2: it and added a walking platform onto the bridge to

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Speaker 2: make it safer for people who do go out there

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Speaker 2: to enjoy it. But it's a really wonderful place, and

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Speaker 2: I remember talking with Becky Patty early on and she

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Speaker 2: was like, you know, when the girls wanted to go

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Speaker 2: out there that day, they had the day off from school,

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Speaker 2: and I thought, well, heck, that's better than them sitting

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Speaker 2: in front of the TV all day.

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Speaker 3: And that was the attitude, you know.

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Speaker 2: And you were talking at the top of the show

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Speaker 2: about your friend Tim and the adventures you would go

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Speaker 2: on in your neighborhood. I grew up the same way.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: We were the kind of kids that were of that

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Speaker 2: generation where your mom kicked you basically out of the

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Speaker 2: house at nine am and said, don't come back till

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Speaker 2: the lights are on in the neighborhood, and you know,

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Speaker 2: we were on our I going all over the place.

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Speaker 2: I mean, when I think back to how many miles

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Speaker 2: away from home I would routinely travel as a seven,

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Speaker 2: eight nine year old, it's pretty surprising compared to today's

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Speaker 2: standards of how parents parent their children. So I relate

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Speaker 2: a lot to Abby and Libby going out there on

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Speaker 2: the bridge wanting to take pictures of the bridge. When

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Speaker 2: I was thirteen, I was a shutter bug. I had

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Speaker 2: my camera, I took it everywhere.

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Speaker 3: I did the same kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: And this was two girls going out in broad daylight

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Speaker 2: in the middle of the afternoon. My mom always said,

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Speaker 2: go with somebody. You know, there's safety in numbers. As

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Speaker 2: long as you're not alone, you'll be okay.

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Speaker 1: And as you say, broad daylight with other people around.

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Speaker 1: This was not some deserted deep in the wood spot

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Speaker 1: where they were going. They were going where there were

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Speaker 1: tons of people hiking and biking and picnicing and everything else.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, people go there and fish and you know, just

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Speaker 2: go out and enjoy the fresh air and the scenery.

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Speaker 2: And you're right, it's not in a secluded area by

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Speaker 2: any means. There are homes, not a lot of homes,

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Speaker 2: but there are homes near the area within you know,

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Speaker 2: one or two miles. Downtown Delphi is only about a

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Speaker 2: mile or two away, so it's not far at all.

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Speaker 2: And you know, it's just really unfortunate what happened out

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Speaker 2: there that day and how it has really changed this

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Speaker 2: entire community. It blew up, as you know, into such

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Speaker 2: a media firestorm. When it first happened. People were calling

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Speaker 2: it the Snapchat killing because of the video that Liddy

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Speaker 2: had got on her phone.

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Speaker 3: It made the news.

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Speaker 2: All over the world. You know, I remember talking with

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Speaker 2: law enforcement officers who were fielding calls from Japan and Finland,

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Speaker 2: and I think even a lot Via. Somebody in Latvia

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Speaker 2: called the Indiana State Police wanting information on the case.

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Speaker 2: So it definitely touched a nerve with true crime audiences

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Speaker 2: all over the world. And here we are now with

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Speaker 2: somebody in custody facing trial, and for a long time

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Speaker 2: it didn't really look like we were going to get there,

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Speaker 2: but here we are.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, when I first got involved, and they

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Speaker 1: were saying, you know, it could be a transient person,

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Speaker 1: it could be a truck driver. So when I first

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Speaker 1: went there, I told Kelsey and them, don't tell me anything.

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Speaker 1: Don't tell me where the bridge is. Let me see

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Speaker 1: if I can find it. Well, there's not like a

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Speaker 1: ton of signage like telling you, hey, this is one

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Speaker 1: of our cool places to go hang out. And then

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Speaker 1: once I kind of got near, there's an overpath that

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Speaker 1: has the bridge's name on it. And so when you

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Speaker 1: turn and go under that underpath, you're still like, where

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Speaker 1: the heck is this bridge? Right? So I was, and

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Speaker 1: I finally gave up and I said, Okay, you're going

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Speaker 1: to have to tell me and Kelthy said, well, here's

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Speaker 1: where you park, Barbara. I would have never seen that

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Speaker 1: turn off. It was like gravel, but it was kind of,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the midst of some growth and other

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Speaker 1: things on the side of the road. So then when

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Speaker 1: I finally pulled up there, I could see, yes, there's

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Speaker 1: a place to park, and there's this beautiful little blue

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Speaker 1: bridge or walk bridge. But then you still have a

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Speaker 1: good bit to go on this trail and you have

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Speaker 1: to go for a pretty good distance before all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden you just turn and there's this bridge. It's

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Speaker 1: almost like wow, and it's bigger and taller and longer

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Speaker 1: than you think in your head before you get there.

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Speaker 1: So the first thing that I knew is there ain't

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Speaker 1: no way somebody just came upon this bridge that was

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Speaker 1: traveling through here.

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Speaker 2: Not happening absolutely, And you know what we had the

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Speaker 2: first we had the same experience as you. The first

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Speaker 2: time that we went to Delphi. I was with Susan

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Speaker 2: Hendrix from HLA and two shorhotographers and we did the

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Speaker 2: same thing with Kelsey. We said, don't tell us where

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Speaker 2: it is, We're going to try to find it. And

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Speaker 2: four of us with four smartphones could not find this bridge,

307
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Speaker 2: could not figure out how to get to where we

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Speaker 2: wanted to go, and I finally had to call Kelsey

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Speaker 2: and have her direct us there.

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Speaker 3: And I had the.

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Speaker 2: Same thought, there was no way this was somebody driving

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Speaker 2: through and going hmmm, maybe I'll just stop there. This

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Speaker 2: had to have been somebody who knew this was here.

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Speaker 2: I've even talked to people who've lived in Delphi for many,

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Speaker 2: many years and didn't know these trails were there until

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Speaker 2: this happened.

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Speaker 1: I remember telling Doug Carter, he's right there, He's within

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Speaker 1: five miles of that bridge. He has to live there.

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Speaker 1: So again, if you're a cold case investigator, you know

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Speaker 1: that nine times out of ten, his name's already in

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Speaker 1: the case file. So you've got to go back, look

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Speaker 1: at every name and make sure you can throw that

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Speaker 1: person out. So our advice immediately got to have fresh

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Speaker 1: eyes on this thing. You got to start over. And

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Speaker 1: I know, me and a group of detectives and csis

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Speaker 1: and psychopathologists, we all volunteered to do that for them,

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Speaker 1: but it was that imperative I will come there and

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Speaker 1: do it, because that's how confident I am. He's right there.

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Speaker 2: And you know, when you get to know the area

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Speaker 2: and you walk around it. Where the girls were found

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Speaker 2: compared to where they were approached on the bridge, seems

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Speaker 2: to me to have been a deliberate effort on the

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Speaker 2: part of the killer to get somewhere more secluded. I

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Speaker 2: think where they were found is probably one of the

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Speaker 2: most secluded areas that you could go to in that

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Speaker 2: general area. Agreed, where you're going to be out of sight,

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Speaker 2: perhaps out of sound range from anybody else who might

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Speaker 2: be using the trails or the park.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent agree. And there's even enough of a

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Speaker 1: ravine that if you're laying there or prepping leaving items,

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Speaker 1: people looking up can't see it. So there's no doubt

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Speaker 1: in my mind that location was picked before.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The other thing that's interesting, and I don't hear a

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Speaker 2: lot of people talk about this, but I think that

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Speaker 2: is an area that also provides if you're familiar with

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Speaker 2: the area, I think that area provides multiple ways to

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Speaker 2: get out. So if you are at this scene and

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Speaker 2: you're doing something you shouldn't be doing and somebody begins

350
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Speaker 2: to come near you, you would have plenty of notice

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Speaker 2: that they're approaching you before they would know you were there,

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Speaker 2: and you would have multiple ways to get out of.

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Speaker 1: There, correct. And the first thing that kind of resonated

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Speaker 1: with me is they were slowly giving us information. Is

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Speaker 1: the one car that was parked way off? And then

356
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Speaker 1: you look at the video and you know, I tried

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00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,919
Speaker 1: to again gently say to people, this person does not

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Speaker 1: look like he goes to the gym every day. And

359
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,919
Speaker 1: the reason that is relevant is because who is going

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Speaker 1: to park further away to then start hiking? And again,

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Speaker 1: I want to be clear, I ain't being ugly. I

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Speaker 1: didn't go to the gym today either, and that's why

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you I'm not going to park a mile

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Speaker 1: away before I start ach Liizon.

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Speaker 2: Especially when there are other places to park closer.

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Speaker 1: Of course, it makes no sense unless you don't want

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Speaker 1: your car to be seen by the other people that

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Speaker 1: are in that area.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but do you really do you think it's plausible

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Speaker 2: that I mean, we have a witness according to these

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Speaker 2: documents that were released that says that she was driving

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Speaker 2: on that road north of the Cemetery Harry, just north

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Speaker 2: of the bridge at just before four pm and she

374
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Speaker 2: saw a man in jeans and a jean jacket who

375
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Speaker 2: was muddy and bloody walking towards where that car would

376
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Speaker 2: have been parked.

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Speaker 1: I think you can't ignore it. And I think if

378
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,359
Speaker 1: you go from the cemetery to the crime scene to

379
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Speaker 1: the car as the crow flies, it possibly makes some sense.

380
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Speaker 1: To me. There is not one female that is going

381
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Speaker 1: to listen to this episode that has not had something

382
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,960
Speaker 1: happened to her with an unknown male. Either she was

383
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 1: approached weird, he said something weird, he brushed up against

384
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Speaker 1: her where you know, he touched her butt.

385
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Speaker 3: You just gave her a weird vibe, gave.

386
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Speaker 1: Her a weird vibe. All of us have had that happen,

387
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Speaker 1: and sometimes even more overtly something has occurred. How many

388
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 1: full videotape Almost none. So here's what this meant to me.

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Speaker 1: You've got a fourteen year old girl that videotaped this man.

390
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 1: I believe something overtly happened before. I believe he passed them,

391
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 1: said something, showed them something, did something. And then when

392
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Speaker 1: he turned around is when she knew this is not

393
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Speaker 1: good and started to video him. If you look at

394
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Speaker 1: the photograph they released early on, he's to the right

395
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Speaker 1: of that bridge. He's way more to the right. When

396
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: I was going to walk on that bridge, baby, let

397
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Speaker 1: me tell you something. Dead center with my arms out right,

398
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Speaker 1: I am not trying to fall. I'm not trying to trip.

399
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 1: He's so far over it looks to me like his

400
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 1: feet and his hips are turned coming back in. I

401
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 1: believe he's turning around, That's what I think. And he's

402
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 1: got his hands in his And that's another thing that

403
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 1: I expressed to Doug Carter. There's no way he's not

404
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: going to have his arms out, just a natural way

405
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 1: to protect yourself walking on these pielines that have, as

406
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 1: you know, large gaps in some places where it looks rotten,

407
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 1: and I just don't see somebody traversing that way to

408
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 1: the side of it and their hands in their pockets.

409
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Speaker 3: I agree that he was probably turning around.

410
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 2: I absolutely agree that something happened before the camera came on.

411
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 2: There was a reason why she was concerned already, and

412
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 2: then she started recording, and we don't know.

413
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:42,239
Speaker 3: What that is.

414
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: So I know you have put so much time and

415
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: effort into this case. So anytime something is released, some

416
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,880
Speaker 1: bit of information or a fact or a piece of evidence,

417
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: I know you just start reeling. But when you found

418
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: out that owned the video, when one of the girls

419
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 1: mentioned the word gone. What was your reaction.

420
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 2: My reaction might be different than a lot of people's.

421
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 2: I am not entirely sure that the jury is going

422
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 2: to hear that as clearly as that was stated in

423
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 2: the probable Cause. I think that there could be some

424
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 2: debate about whether or not that word is used. The

425
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 2: audio on that video is not clear. Police have mentioned

426
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 2: several times that they had to clean up just what

427
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,400
Speaker 2: they presented to us publicly, which was down the hill,

428
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 2: and then they amended it to guys down the Hill,

429
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 2: And my understanding is that there was even some debate

430
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 2: about whether those words are correct, and there are some

431
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 2: people who listen to it and hear other things, but

432
00:25:55,359 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: I think that is more clear than what is said by.

433
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 3: One of the girls.

434
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 2: A lot of people who have speculated for a long

435
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 2: time me included that perhaps he did have a gun

436
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: and showed that to them on the bridge to help

437
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 2: get that early control of these two girls physically, and

438
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 2: that's certainly not out of the realm of possibilities. One

439
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 2: of the things I heard recently was that somebody was

440
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 2: saying that on the video you can hear the gun cocking,

441
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 2: and you know, there was the unspent ejected shellcasing that

442
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 2: was found at the crime scene between the bodies. Well,

443
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: the video was taken on the bridge, So if he's

444
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 2: cocking the gun on the bridge, I don't know that

445
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 2: that explains the shellcasing found a quarter of a mile

446
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 2: away between the bodies.

447
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a brilliant.

448
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,239
Speaker 2: Point, depending on exactly where that action happened on the

449
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 2: bridge or whether he had just stepped off of it.

450
00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 2: It could have been in the gravel at the end

451
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 2: of the bridge. But if he was still on the bridge,

452
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 2: there's a huge possibility that round would have ended up

453
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 2: in the water.

454
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: It certainly wouldn't have wound up between the two of

455
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 1: them a half a mile away exactly.

456
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 2: So did he cock the gun again later and that

457
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 2: is what led to the unspent shell casing being found

458
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 2: at the scene.

459
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 3: You know, we don't know.

460
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 2: We also don't know yet if there is any other

461
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 2: evidence tying that bullet or gun to anything else. You know,

462
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 2: was his fingerprint on that gun, I mean on that bullet.

463
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 2: Did they find a partial print on it? Does that

464
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 2: match in any way to him? Was there DNA on it?

465
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 2: I have a lot of questions about that, And since

466
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 2: you know, the latest document dump says basically, the documents

467
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 2: contain information that there was a edged weapon used in

468
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 2: these murders. They were not killed by a gunshot. So

469
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: I think that further waters it down a little bit.

470
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: For me.

471
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 3: I'm very curious in hearing.

472
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: Much more about that shell casing and what all the

473
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: various experts have to say about it, what test was used,

474
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 2: how reliable that test is.

475
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 3: I want to see all of that.

476
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would love to believe that they got that

477
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: thing to Francine Bardol and that they do have his

478
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: DNA off of it, but I haven't seen anything that

479
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 1: would suggest that.

480
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: Right, And you know, we don't know all the information

481
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 2: the prosecution has, right they put up these documents that

482
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 2: the court did, the judge approved that, but that's still

483
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 2: not the complete case. So oh yeah, there could be

484
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 2: a lot more testing, a lot more evidence. There could

485
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 2: be a lot more evidence pointing directly at Richard Allen,

486
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: but we don't know that yet.

487
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: But we do know that there's specific cell phone information,

488
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: firearm information, electronics, clothing.

489
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 3: He placed himself at.

490
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: The scene, girl, you just beat me to it.

491
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 3: He volunteered that information.

492
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 4: Yes, you know what he says to police about his

493
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 4: whereabouts while he was out there seems to match what

494
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 4: the witnesses are reporting they saw, So yeah, there is

495
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 4: some potential corroboration there.

496
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: And then we're going to have you know, his computer,

497
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: things he researched, things he looked at. We have already had,

498
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: you know, statements from the family saying that when they

499
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: were in CVS, he would say things to them, you

500
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: know that maybe in hindsight or a little creepy, whereas

501
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: when they were first said to him, it didn't really

502
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: mean that much. So you know, who knows. But I

503
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: think there is so much more to weed through, you know.

504
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 2: That's the other reason why I want Richard Allen to

505
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 2: have a fair trial, because he's found have been through

506
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 2: so much already and just waiting six plus years for

507
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 2: an arrest that was tortuous for them, and now to

508
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 2: begin this judicial process you know that could play out

509
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 2: for years when you're talking about convictions and appeals and

510
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 2: you know, delays, and this could be a process that

511
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: takes another couple of years. And I want them to

512
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 2: be able to at least know who did this, potentially

513
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: why it happened, so that they can move on with

514
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: their grieving, not that that brings closure, not that that brings.

515
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 3: The end of anything.

516
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 2: But as I think Mike Patty says, a lot, you know,

517
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 2: it would end a chapter right and allow them to

518
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 2: open up a new chapter that perhaps could have more

519
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 2: healing in it.

520
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: Well, I think for the whole community, having the who

521
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: takes away a lot of fear, takes away a lot

522
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: of this guy still walking around among us, you know.

523
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: But I tell you one thing that I am hopeful

524
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: with these alleged five confessions. I hope he said something

525
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: that only the killer would know.

526
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 3: Absolutely. That's the other thing. You know.

527
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people who are saying, oh, he confessed,

528
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: so it's a done deal. Well, not necessarily. We need

529
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 2: to hear what he said and whether or not he

530
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 2: offered any information that only the killer would know.

531
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: Like if he said that, yeah, I took her yellow underwear.

532
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: Did he give a color that we didn't know? Did

533
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: he say you know exactly how he murdered them. I've

534
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 1: always thought it was with a straight edge weapon. I

535
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: thought it was most likely their throats. I don't know that.

536
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: Did he say it because the killer would know?

537
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 2: And did he offer anything like we haven't heard anything

538
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 2: about who might have been attacked first, or how many

539
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 2: wounds might have been on each victim.

540
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 3: Did he give information about.

541
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: That exactly how we staged them?

542
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, the defense is arguing that, well,

543
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 2: you know, these are incoherent statements, ramblings of a man

544
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 2: who's degrading mentally. So I'd like to hear the call

545
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: where he allegedly confesses five times to his wife and

546
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: what was the context of that. Was he like, hey,

547
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: I got to tell you, like I did this, Like

548
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get out of this trouble.

549
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 3: I did this? Or was it just you know, fine,

550
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 3: I did it. I did it. I did it.

551
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of variation, and I want

552
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 2: to hear what he said and what she said, and

553
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 2: what the conversation was leading up to it.

554
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 3: I want to know all of that.

555
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: The ex prosecutor mentioned to me that there were three

556
00:32:54,440 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: different signatures in his opinion, we have all understood and

557
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: I readily accept that there was staging at that scene.

558
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: What is it did he say it? Would he give

559
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: any information that would make us go, oh, I get it.

560
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: It has to be him, because this was never released

561
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: any last.

562
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 2: Thoughts, you know, Mac, I think, at the end of

563
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 2: the day, this is a case about Abby and Libby,

564
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: and a lot of the headlines right now are focused

565
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 2: on Richard Allen, as they need to be, because there's

566
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 2: a lot of news happening with the case. But this

567
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: crime was about two little girls thirteen and fourteen years old.

568
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 2: It would be twenty now. Libby would be approaching her

569
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 2: twenty first birthday later this year, and just think of

570
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 2: all that They missed prom driver's license, boyfriends, college. You know,

571
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: Libby missed seeing her sister, her best friend, her big sister,

572
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: get me married. She's missing her first niece, Kelsey is having

573
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 2: a baby, and there's just so much loss from just

574
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: this horrendous attack. And whoever did this should absolutely be

575
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: caught and they should be punished. But just remember Abby

576
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 2: and Libby. They deserved a lot more than they got,

577
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 2: and I really wish we could have seen what they

578
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,240
Speaker 2: would have done with their lives.

579
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: I could not add to that if I wanted to

580
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:40,439
Speaker 1: your podcast Down the Hill. I listened to the entire thing.

581
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: It was one of the most comprehensive, all inclusive, three

582
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 1: sixty view that I've ever listened to.

583
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 2: Oh thank you. Can I give a quick shout out

584
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 2: to the team that worked with me on that, Dan

585
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 2: and Drew. I mean, it was an amazing experience on

586
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:05,280
Speaker 2: my part, absolutely a professional highlight to have been teamed

587
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 2: with such amazing professionals and to be able to create

588
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: that work. And I'll forever be proud of it.

589
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: Well, not only can he give a shout out, I'm

590
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 1: going to second it. And I'll tell you in a

591
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: small world, little action. You and I are talking in

592
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: Delphi the morning of the press conference beforehand, and then

593
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, behind me, I hear Cheryl like

594
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 1: question mark, and I turn and I turn around and

595
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: it's Drew. And here's the great thing just for people

596
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: to know. When I used to do the Nancy Gray

597
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: Show and we would have to go to see an

598
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 1: n Drew would sometimes babysit Hunting Caroline for the hour

599
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: that I was on air.

600
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 3: He's such a great guy.

601
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: Oh, he's tremendous, and Hunting Caroline used to have such

602
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: a great time of him. He would entertain them and

603
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: that's not easy to do to they were little at time.

604
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: You're talking about, you know, fifteen twenty years ago, And

605
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: I mean he taught in that paper football game he

606
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: would play that sounds like Drew, oh my gosh. And

607
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: they would always have some great story to tell, some

608
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: game he taught them. So, yes, you can brag on them,

609
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: but that I want people to understand again. You know,

610
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 1: there's all these talents that people have that they brought

611
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 1: to this thing. It's not just hey, I'm going to

612
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 1: do a podcast. You brought everything you had to it,

613
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 1: even your travels. So did Drew.

614
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 3: Yeah.

615
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And Drew and Dan and I we still talk

616
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 2: about the case all the time. We share things with

617
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 2: each other all the time. You know, they're my sounding

618
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 2: board and.

619
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 3: It's it's just.

620
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,760
Speaker 2: This case either gets under your skin or it doesn't.

621
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: And it absolutely got under theirs. So they joined me

622
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 2: in my obsession, and you know, for probably about nine

623
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 2: months we worked exclusively on that.

624
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: Well, Barbara, I can't thank you enough for being here

625
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 1: and sharing your genius and your expertise. And I'm just

626
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 1: going to give you the final word.

627
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for this chance to talk about

628
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,320
Speaker 2: them and this case. Like everyone else, I'll be watching

629
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 2: to see how this plays out in court.

630
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: Now all I'll go end Zone seven the way that

631
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: I always do with a quote. From now on, it

632
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: is our task to suspect each and everyone among us.

633
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: That's from Agatha Christie's book. And then there were none.

634
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: I'm a Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven.