1 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy one, I walked into my first grade classroom. 2 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 2: I was not sure that I was made for school. 3 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: The idea of sitting inside all day, having to be quiet, 4 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: having to be still, listening to somebody talking about math 5 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: and handwriting and reading. 6 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 2: It sounded awful. 7 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: I didn't know why anybody would want to go there. 8 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: I wanted to be home, feral, playing with friends, building forts, 9 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: cutting through the woods, riding my bike, going to the lake. 10 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: I wanted to do anything but school. I had no 11 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: idea there had been a civil rights movement at this time. 12 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about segregation or desegregation. I had 13 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: no idea that my first grade teacher, Miss Williams, had 14 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: to fight to get her job, had to fight to 15 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: keep her job, or that she was a trailblazer in 16 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: the Atlanta school system. What I do remember is she 17 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 1: didn't treat us like babies. She would brag on us. 18 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: She would brag on our parents. She would tell us, 19 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: your parents are hard workers, y'all should be proud of them. 20 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 2: She would tell. 21 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: Us how smart we were, how responsible we were. 22 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 2: And then she would prove it. 23 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: I remember one specific thing. She walks in one day 24 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: and She had every one of us a felt tip pen, 25 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: and she allowed us to use ink to practice our handwriting, 26 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: and she had bought them with her own money. Well, 27 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: we were so proud of it. We practiced our writing 28 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: with such enthusiasm. Even our parents would not have let 29 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: us have a felt tip marker. 30 00:01:59,120 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 2: Wouldn't happen. 31 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: So clearly Miss Williams knew my maturity better than my parents. 32 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: She would also sing to us. 33 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 2: And after a couple of days we would. 34 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: Start singing along, and she told us that we needed 35 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: to sing with gusto. 36 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 2: I had no idea that I was singing civil rights songs. 37 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: All I knew is at the end of our nine 38 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: months together, I knew she loved me, and I knew 39 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: I loved her. The Moore's Ford Bridge lyncheons the last 40 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: mass lyncheon in the United States. On July fourteenth, nineteen 41 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: forty six, a sharecropper named Roger Malcolm was accused of 42 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: stabbing a farmer named Barnett Hester with an ice pick. 43 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: Mister Malcolm went to jail that night. His wife was 44 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: fearful that a mob would storm the jail and kill him, 45 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: so she begged her boss, Lloyd Harrison, who owned the 46 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: farm was one of the largest land owners in Monroe County. 47 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: To please go bail him out, and Lloy Harrison said no. 48 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: Miss Malcolm asked Looy Harrison repeatedly for the next eleven 49 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: days to please go bail him out. 50 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 2: He refused. 51 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: Then suddenly, on July twenty fifth, he told Miss Malcolm 52 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: go get the Dorseys and let's go to town and 53 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: get Roger out of jail. Mister Harrison did not go 54 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: back on the paved road as the crow flies to 55 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: his farm. He took the unpaved long way home. As 56 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: he approached the small moor's Ford Bridge, there was a 57 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: mob waiting. Four young African Americans are stopped on the 58 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: moor's Ford Bridge, drug out of their car and murdered. 59 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: They were shot over one hundred times apiece by the 60 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: mob that stopped them on the bridge. This case is 61 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: the coldest case I've ever worked. This case is not 62 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: only inactive right now, the FBI closed it with no 63 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: arrest and nobody named as a person of interest. There's 64 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 1: a book called Fire and the Cane Break, and I 65 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: want to read you'all just a little part of it. 66 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: The sheriff turns onto Washington Street, drove two blocks north 67 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: of the courthouse and parked in back of the two 68 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: stories Cindra Block jail. Deputy Sheriff Lewis Howard, who served 69 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: as the county jailer, took Roger Malcolm from the car 70 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: and led him into a group sell after locking him 71 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: in with two white prisoners because the county jail wasn't 72 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 1: segregated by race, he walked down the hallway leading to 73 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,239 Speaker 1: the adjoining brick house where he lived with his family. 74 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,119 Speaker 1: He secured the heavy metal door behind him across town. 75 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: Late that Sunday night, Door's left operating room and met 76 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: Barnett Hester's father and brothers in the corridor of the 77 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: Walton County Hospital. They didn't have good news. The blade 78 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 1: that Roger Malcolm's pocket knife had sliced through the upper 79 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: region of Barnett's stomach, lacerating his intestine and puncturing his lung. 80 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: The doctors had washed the protruding section of intestine and 81 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: reconnected it. Then they inserted a tube to drain the 82 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: fluid from his lung. The risk of infection was grave, 83 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: the doctor said they weren't sure Barnett would live out 84 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: the wheak. We get to welcome. The author of those words, 85 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: the author of Fire and a Cane Break, is going 86 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: to join us, and we're going to talk about the 87 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: importance of the historical record that she put together. That's 88 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: how I see it. This is more than a book 89 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: to me. This is absolutely one of the only historical 90 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: records we've been able to peruse and look at and study. 91 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: I am so pleased to welcome Laura Wexler to Zone seven. 92 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. Cheryl. That was 93 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 3: the nicest introduction, and I loved your story. Oh my gosh, 94 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 3: I was just right there with you in that kindergarten 95 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 3: classroom with your felt tip pen. 96 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: She was awesome, I'm telling you. 97 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about your background though, 98 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: because I want people to know you were living in Athens. 99 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: You were teaching at the University of Georgia when you 100 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: heard about the massacre at Moresford Bridge. I think you 101 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: were an assistant editor with Georgia Magazine. 102 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. I wasn't actually teaching at the time. I had 103 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 3: just started. So let's see. I finished my graduate degree 104 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 3: in May nineteen ninety seven, and then I moved that 105 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 3: summer to Athens because my boyfriend and at the time 106 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 3: was working at the public radio station. And I had 107 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 3: gotten this job at the Georgia University of Georgia alumni magazine, 108 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 3: which was called Georgia Magazine. And part of what I 109 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 3: did just to get familiar with University of Georgia and 110 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 3: look for story ideas for the magazine, was to read 111 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 3: the newspaper, The Red and Black every day. That's how 112 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 3: I learned about this case. One day in nineteen ninety seven, 113 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 3: there was an editorial by a man named rich Rusk 114 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 3: who lived in Aconey County, and he was letting people 115 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 3: know about this group that had formed, which was called 116 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:51,239 Speaker 3: the Moorsford Memorial Committee. And this was a biracial group 117 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 3: of black and white people who were had formed and 118 00:07:55,320 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 3: were intent on memorializing the four victims of the more's 119 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 3: Ford lynching. This was before Google. If you can you 120 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 3: remember before Google, right, Yeah, sure, some of your listeners 121 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 3: may not. But anyway, I had never heard of this lynching. 122 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 3: I had never heard of the morris Ford lynching. I 123 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 3: had no idea that as late as nineteen forty six, 124 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 3: you know, four people could be lynched and it wouldn't 125 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 3: be something that we learned about in school. Like we 126 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 3: learned about the killing of the three civil rights workers 127 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 3: and Emma Till and so I was surprised that this 128 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 3: had happened, and I was surprised that I didn't know 129 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 3: about it. If it happened, does that make sense? 130 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 2: Oh, it does absolutely. 131 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: I'm a Native Atlantic born and raised in Georgia, seventh 132 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: and eighth generation. I had never heard of it. I 133 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: mean I went to college at Georgia State. I had 134 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: never heard of it. And Tyrone Brooks got me involved 135 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: and he said, if you're looking at cold cases, why 136 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: are you not looking at mors Ford Bridge. 137 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: And I was like, well, tell me about it. That's 138 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 2: kind of what happened. 139 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: But I want to go back a little bit about you, 140 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: just for a second before we move forward. 141 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 2: So now you're living in Baltimore and you're a full 142 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 2: time writer. 143 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 3: I work in lots of different genres, but everything is 144 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 3: really united by narrative storytelling, which is why I was 145 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 3: so tickled by your story about your teacher. And so 146 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 3: whether it's a true story, or it's based on a 147 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 3: true story, or it's something out of my imagination, I'm 148 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 3: really interested in the power of story to really connect 149 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 3: us to places and people that we are unfamiliar with. 150 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: I can tell you that your book is captivating. It 151 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: is a story, and you're telling a beautiful You're right there. 152 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: Every time you turn the page, you can see it, 153 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: you can understand it, and I think you have a 154 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: real gift of making sure that the reader understands the 155 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: importance of this thing. Three sixty You don't tell just 156 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: one side, which is pretty fascinating, and I figured it 157 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:06,959 Speaker 1: was pretty hard to do, and I want to talk 158 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: a little bit about that. 159 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 2: Let's start at. 160 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 1: The very beginning, which to me is the title. How 161 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: did you come up with the title? 162 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 3: You know, I had never lived in the South before, 163 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 3: so lots of things were unfamiliar to me when I 164 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 3: moved to Athens, Georgia, and when I went and first 165 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 3: started talking to people about this lynching in Walton and 166 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 3: Nacona County. But early on one thing, I heard some 167 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 3: of the African American people I talked to say when 168 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 3: they were describing the lynching, they said, it sounded like 169 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 3: a fire in a cane break, And at first I 170 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,599 Speaker 3: didn't want to let anyone know that I did, you 171 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 3: know what a cane break was? And I wasn't sure 172 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 3: what a fire in a cane brake sounded like. And 173 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 3: then I asked somebody and they told me that a 174 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 3: cane break is like a thicket of caine. You may 175 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 3: know this, but to me this was completely new information. 176 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 3: And so like bamboo, wild cane can you know, grow 177 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 3: on the river banks or grow in areas that people 178 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 3: might want to plant with crops, and so to get 179 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 3: rid of these canes, they would light a fire to 180 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 3: clear the land. And because of the stalks are hollow, 181 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 3: they pop, they explode, and so that was what people 182 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 3: refer to to describe the sound of the gunshots. And 183 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 3: what they were trying to do was convey how many 184 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 3: gunshots they had heard. Like it wasn't just pop, it 185 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 3: was pop pop pop pop pop pop pop pop. So, Cheryl, 186 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 3: have you like you've been a place where people have 187 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 3: been clearing river cane and you've heard it? 188 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, it's more than a pop. 189 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: I mean, if you didn't know what was coming, it 190 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: would get your undivided attention. 191 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 2: It's scary. 192 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, it's loud, and especially you've got you know, 193 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: a bushel of it because you've you know, cleared all 194 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: day and now you're gonna you know, burn a pile 195 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: of it. There's no way you would not know exactly 196 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: what you were hearing. 197 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 3: Once I understood what that was, I really wanted to 198 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 3: use it as the title because it's a phrase that is, 199 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 3: like you said, it's local. Like some people will get 200 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 3: it right away. Even people who don't get it will 201 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 3: understand that there's something violent with the fire and the 202 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 3: you know, just even the word cane break is kind 203 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 3: of like a violent sounding word, even if you don't know. 204 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 3: Part of what I wanted to do was really tell 205 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 3: this story through the eyes of the people who experienced it, 206 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 3: and so using their idioms, using their language was really 207 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 3: important to me. 208 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 2: I agree completely. 209 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: I was going to say something very similar to me 210 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: by using the way they would talk, the way they 211 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: would phrase the imagery. I mean, I think that's a 212 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: very Southern thing. And you know, especially if you grew 213 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,839 Speaker 1: up with you know, great grandparents or grandparents or great 214 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: aunts and uncles ways that they talked that if you 215 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,839 Speaker 1: were lucky enough to capture it on film, you can 216 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: go back and listen to it and be amazed how 217 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: your ancestors spoke, even a generation back. You were able 218 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: to locate two of the suspects that were still living 219 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: and talk to them. 220 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 2: Did you get a. 221 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:32,719 Speaker 1: Sense when they agreed to talk to you that they 222 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: were going to just open up and let you know, 223 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: this is my side, even a deathbed confession. 224 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 3: Well, I wouldn't say that they technically agreed to talk 225 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 3: to me. I would say more that I showed up 226 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 3: at their front door and they talked to me for 227 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 3: a little bit before they said they were done. You know, 228 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 3: I believe I actually did get into one of them 229 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 3: their houses, but they were not. But you know, the 230 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 3: attitude they had, first of all, was one that I 231 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,599 Speaker 3: heard from from many of the people, many of the 232 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 3: white people that I tried to interview about this in 233 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 3: Walton County and Acony County, which was, why are you 234 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 3: bringing this up? Why does this matter? What are you 235 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 3: doing here? You're wasting your time, This doesn't mean anything. 236 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 3: There wasn't really an interest helping me tell the story 237 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 3: in this case because I was able to say because 238 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 3: I had this FBI report that I had not gotten 239 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 3: through Freedom of Information Act, so it wasn't you know, 240 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 3: it wasn't censored. So when I showed up, I asked 241 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 3: them questions. They didn't know that I had the FBI report. 242 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 3: They didn't know that. I knew, you know, what they 243 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 3: had told the agents back in nineteen forty six. But 244 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 3: what they told me was the very same thing that 245 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 3: they had told the agents. So their stories had stuck. 246 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 3: They were sticking to them. They were as suspicious now 247 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 3: as they were then again, like it was suspicious, but 248 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 3: there wasn't anything that would really crack the case. And 249 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 3: you know, put them there with a gun in their hand, 250 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 3: and that was really the problem, you know, with the 251 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 3: whole investigation. 252 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: Well, you know, when you and I first met, we 253 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: met at the re enactment at the Bridge and everything 254 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: was going on, and the FBI was there, and Keith 255 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: Bochamp was there, and Tyrone Brooks and Bobby Howard and 256 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: so many other community leaders and politicians. What fascinated me was, 257 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: I thought, there's enough, how are players here that surely 258 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: we're going to be able to get something done. We're 259 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: going to be able to move it in some way, 260 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: whether it was hey, we're going to offer everybody a 261 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: deal if you can fass or a deathbed confession, or 262 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: somebody's going to come forward and say, I have a 263 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: family member that told me this story and here's the 264 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: gun that they left along with the story. But that 265 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: never happened, none of. 266 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 2: It, I know. 267 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 3: And when you think about it, I remember, like reading 268 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 3: somewhere that like any time more than one person is 269 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 3: involved in a crime, the chances, you know, the chances 270 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 3: that the word will get out or like multiply exponentially. Right. 271 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 3: So if you think, like at a minimum, say a 272 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 3: very conservative estimate would be ten people, we're in this, 273 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 3: we're in this mob that Wade laid Lloy Harrison's car 274 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 3: and killed these four people. So you would think like, 275 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 3: even if it were just ten, somebody somebody would have, 276 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 3: like you said, cracked or somebody's found member would have 277 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 3: found out and said something I I you know, I 278 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 3: thought a lot about why that didn't happen. And all 279 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 3: I can say, all I could all I could conclude 280 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 3: was their loyalty to each other was you know, these 281 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 3: people were all sort of interrelated, and they were like 282 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 3: a clan in this not in the sense of the 283 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 3: Ku Klux Klan, although they shared those ideas, but in 284 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 3: the sense of like they were a tribe and they 285 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 3: were loyal to that group above all else. And they 286 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 3: didn't like the FBI. They didn't like the newspaper people. 287 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 3: They didn't like you know, the civil rights the US 288 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 3: attorneys and the civil rights lawyers. They it was a 289 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 3: US against them situation at the time. And you know, 290 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 3: years later or you think, oh, their descendants wouldn't all 291 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 3: have that same mindset. But it's still family. You know, 292 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 3: it's still family. That is the only way I can 293 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 3: understand that I can understand why none of the descendants 294 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 3: ever have said anything in terms of the FBI's inability to, 295 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 3: you know, to do anything all these years later. I 296 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 3: think what they're up against is no physical evidence. So 297 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 3: even if someone came forward and confessed, it would be 298 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 3: difficult to even authenticate a confession. 299 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: But this lyncheon, it did have some aspects that were 300 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: not like most lyncheens. 301 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 2: One, it had multiple victims. 302 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: Two of those victims were women, and the other was 303 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: an army veteran that I think gave an element of 304 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: two things. One, I think it did get President's Truman 305 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: his attention to say, we've got to do. 306 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 2: Something about this. 307 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: We can't allow these lyncheens to keep occurring, especially if 308 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: they're going to involve veterans in women. And then the 309 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: other thing that I think happened for that town is 310 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: they would kill possibly a pregnant female, they would kill 311 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: an army veteran. I know I'm not safe if that's 312 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: the case. 313 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's true. I think it wasn't only 314 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 3: black people in that area that were scared to talk 315 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 3: to the FBI because of the consequences to their own 316 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 3: safety or their loved one safety, but also white people 317 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 3: were scared to be seen talking to the FBI because 318 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 3: they were scared of Yes, like you said, if they did, 319 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 3: if they did these people like that, what would they 320 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 3: do to me? 321 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 2: Sure? And then there's the reality of ruining your family name. 322 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, and just I think when you look at the 323 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 3: fact that law enforcement was at the very least supportive 324 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 3: and at the most complicit, then you think, well, if 325 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 3: the law enforcement, if like you know, the rule of 326 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 3: law in town was in on this, then so am 327 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 3: I now going to get arrested for something I didn't 328 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 3: do because I talked out about this? You know. It's 329 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 3: just I think it ran so deep that it wasn't safe. 330 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 3: And you know, you're right, this this lynching was unique 331 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 3: in some ways. I mean the fact that this the 332 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 3: FBI was in was in this area, you know, for 333 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 3: four months with twenty odd agents. That was a big investigation, 334 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 3: that was a big use of resources. Hoover obviously wasn't 335 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 3: a friend to black people and wasn't thrilled that he 336 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 3: was being compelled to send FBI agents there, but his 337 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 3: boss Tom Clark and Truman like there was a will 338 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 3: to try to do something, if only because I think 339 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 3: for Truman it was like it didn't it looked like 340 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 3: we were not running a democracy when things like this happened. 341 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 1: In your book, what do you think some of the 342 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:21,360 Speaker 1: most compelling evidence is that number one law enforcement may 343 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: have actually even been involved to a degree. And you 344 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: remember the share of saying I let somebody borrow my gun. 345 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: I don't remember who. 346 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 3: And yeah, I think I mean particularly Lewis Howard, who, 347 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 3: as you mentioned in the excerpt, he read at the 348 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 3: beginning of our conversation, who was the jailer. So there's 349 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 3: some evidence that he knew there was a threat on 350 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 3: Roger Malcolm's life. That you know, there had been a 351 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 3: meeting in a place called Toller's Woods, and there had 352 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 3: been talk that he would have had to know about them, 353 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 3: of a mob coming to try to steal Roger out 354 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 3: of jail for coursibly, as had been done earlier in 355 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 3: the history of the county. The US attorney who was 356 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 3: presenting the case to the grand jury in Athens in 357 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 3: December at the end of the investigation, one of the 358 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 3: things that they discovered during the course of the grand 359 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 3: jury was that there was a prisoner in the Walton 360 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,479 Speaker 3: County jail who was there at the same time as 361 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 3: Roger Malcolm, who had actually been moved to safety on 362 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 3: a particular night because the jailer, Lewis Howard, had told 363 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 3: him that some people were coming to get Roger Malcolm 364 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 3: and he didn't You wanted to make sure they didn't 365 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,239 Speaker 3: take this other guy instead. And to me, that was 366 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 3: that was such a huge turn in the case that 367 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 3: they had this evidence, because that was like clear proof 368 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 3: that there was a color of life law violation, which 369 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 3: was actually a federal crime. Right. If they could show 370 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 3: that the people who were charged with keeping Roger Malcolm 371 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 3: safe had actually abused their power and caused him danger, 372 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 3: then that would be a federal civil rights violation. But 373 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 3: it never went anywhere. It fizzled out, It never led 374 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 3: to anything in the grand jury, which actually brings me 375 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 3: to something that I was thinking about in terms of 376 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 3: what you said about my book being one of the 377 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 3: only historical records, and that is that after I finished 378 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 3: the book my book and published it a few years later, 379 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 3: there was a gentleman from Washington, d c. Who wanted 380 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 3: to write his own book about the linching, and in 381 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 3: the course of doing that, he stumbled, I mean, he 382 00:23:54,480 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 3: really accidentally stumbled across the transcripts from the grand jury 383 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 3: in this case that were in the National Archives. I 384 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 3: was so surprised to hear that he had found them, 385 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 3: because when I started researching, I had asked people, where 386 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 3: are the transcripts of this grand jury? This was a 387 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 3: three week grand jury. One hundred people had come and 388 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 3: been had testified before the grand jury, like where are 389 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 3: these transcripts? And what I had been told by the 390 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 3: Civil Rights Section was that because the grand jury did 391 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 3: not indict anybody on federal charges, the transcripts would not 392 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 3: have been produced. So they wouldn't have created like an 393 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 3: official transcript, because you know, when no one's indicted, they 394 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 3: don't want to have this transcript made because no one 395 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 3: was ever charged, and it could it could you know, 396 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 3: could be bad for the people whose names were you know, 397 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 3: we're in it. So they said there's either no transcript 398 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 3: or if there is a transcript, you would not be 399 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 3: able to see it because grand jury, federal grand jury 400 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 3: transcripts are sealed. Okay. So I just was like, I'm 401 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 3: not going to I'm not even going to waste any 402 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 3: time on that. I'm going to deal with that FBI report. 403 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 3: I'm going to deal with other documents from the Civil 404 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 3: Rights Section. So this gentleman stumbled on these transcripts. Wow, 405 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 3: Like what a mother load, right, because that question I 406 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 3: have of like, why did this lead on Lewis Howard 407 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 3: go nowhere? What did Lloyd Harrison say in his many 408 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 3: hours in front of the grand jury all of this 409 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 3: we would get to know, we would get to hear, 410 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 3: get to see if these transcripts were unsealed. So once 411 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 3: he discovered them, that began a legal battle that went 412 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 3: through several stages of the court system before finally getting 413 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 3: stopped and the and the federal judges saying no, these 414 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 3: transcripts cannot be unsealed because of the grand jury rule 415 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 3: of secrecy. To me, that is a huge, huge disservice 416 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 3: and a huge shame because I mean so many people 417 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 3: whose names would be in this transcripts are no longer living, 418 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 3: and so I think the threat to people is very, 419 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 3: very low. The benefit to understanding not just what happened 420 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 3: in this case, but understanding how a grand jury worked 421 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 3: at this time when it was dealing with a case 422 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 3: like this, I think it would be such an immense 423 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 3: contribution to our understanding of these situations and why so 424 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 3: often no one was brought to justice. So as it 425 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 3: stands out, they exist and they're sealed, and no one's 426 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 3: looking at them, and they're turning to dust in a box. 427 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: And we know there's answers in there. Just the list 428 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: of the people they called would show you the direction 429 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: they were going. 430 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 2: If we had a list of all. 431 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: The one hundred people, then you would be able to 432 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: paint a picture of this is what they thought. 433 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 2: These were the people they were centered on. 434 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 1: You know, they're all farmers, they're bankers, they're jailers, their teachers, 435 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: they're these people. It's the entire town, which is what 436 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: some of the witnesses have said. Those eleven days from 437 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: the time mister Hester was stabbed till the events on 438 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 1: Moore's Ford Bridge, the luncheon, those eleven days. 439 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 2: To me, are so critical, Laura. I don't know if 440 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 2: you've seen this. 441 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 1: There's a photograph of Lloyd Harrison, and I've never heard 442 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: anybody talk about it. I've never heard anybody pinpoint it. 443 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: But he's sitting in his car. Now you know the 444 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: other pictures where he's got the sheriff there and the 445 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: guy from the Atlanta Journal just happens to be there, 446 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 1: and they're just showing, oh, this is how they were 447 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: tied together. And he knows everything so perfect. He's sitting 448 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 1: in his car and he's got his hand up on 449 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: the driver's door and he's turned like he's gonna step 450 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: right out, so he's not where his feet are on 451 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,719 Speaker 1: the gas pedal. His feet are outside the vehicle. You 452 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:24,439 Speaker 1: can see the passenger's door and window. You can see fingerprints. 453 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 2: Really if you look at it. 454 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: At the top of that window that's partially rolled down, 455 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: you can see where it looks like somebody was holding 456 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: like a child would peep out. And then on the 457 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: outside of the door you can see a handprint that's 458 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: upside down. So like, if you're dragging me out of 459 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: that car and I'm trying to stop you from getting 460 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: me that's what. 461 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 2: It looks like to me. 462 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: And again I've never heard anybody talk about what I see. 463 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: And this leaps off this picture to me because I 464 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: don't know if this was mister Malcolm or miss Dorsey. 465 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: I don't know who it was, but it's plain as day. 466 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I just I see the handprint. 467 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: That to me is the most powerful picture because again 468 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: he's sitting in that car with no remorse, no sadness. 469 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: I mean, these were four people he knew, he had 470 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: known them for years, they lived on his property, and 471 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: for him to have no emotion about it, it's pretty 472 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: telling to me too. 473 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 3: You know, you have such a I never would have 474 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 3: seen that. I think I was always just looking at 475 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 3: his face. 476 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: If not for your book, we would not have the 477 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: documentation that we do on this case. 478 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 2: And I think it's an important case. 479 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,719 Speaker 1: I think it's one of those not just for historical purposes, 480 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: but again for people to understand the times. 481 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 2: Nineteen forty six is not that long ago. 482 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: And you have a town and I know you experienced this, 483 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: but when you go back, you still have people that 484 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: separate and don't want to talk. 485 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 2: You've got both communities. 486 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: That have their own My own reasons that are extraordinarily 487 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: valid for not talking to outsiders. 488 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 3: When I started writing this book, I wanted to solve 489 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 3: the case. That's I was really motivated by that. I 490 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 3: really thought once I got that FBI report, I felt 491 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 3: like somebody was going to say, you know, you're right, 492 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 3: it's time, I'm finally going to spill. You know. It 493 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 3: was naive, I see now, but I just I really 494 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 3: really wanted to do that. And I was disappointed and 495 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 3: have been disappointed every time the case has reopened and 496 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 3: there really is no progress made on prosecution. But what 497 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 3: has been heartening is that more and more people know 498 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 3: about this case. I mean, I you know, this book 499 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 3: has been out since two thousand and three, so it's 500 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 3: twenty years and I still get probably a couple times 501 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 3: a week. I still get somebody. Often it's someone from 502 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 3: the South, someone from Georgia writing me, emailing me through 503 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 3: my website saying like I just read about this. I 504 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 3: had no idea, thank you. You know, there's just I'm 505 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 3: proud that despite not being able to get justice, there 506 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 3: was a way in which doing this has kind of 507 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 3: put it out in the open and made it public 508 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 3: in a way, and lots of people have come behind 509 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 3: me and before me putting pieces together. You know, they 510 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 3: really have doing documentaries, you know, writing their own books. 511 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 3: That's been something that has been good to see. 512 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: Well, you know, my students got such a life lesson 513 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: every time we had any involvement with Moore's Ford Bridge, 514 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: because there was always somebody just extraordinary that was able 515 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: to teach them in some way. But I'll tell you 516 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: one thing that you may not have ever heard this 517 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: part of the story, but we took a four forty 518 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: five passenger bus once when we were going to search 519 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: for the evidence, and our original driver got ill, so 520 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: we had a substitute driver that only had this obscure 521 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: address in the middle of nowhere. So from Atlanta we 522 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: go out to the bridge and he just sees these 523 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: students kind of go out into this field and they 524 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: start doing their thing. And he kept the bus on 525 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: so the air conditioning. We could come back every now 526 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: and then and you know, cool down. So I go 527 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: back on the bus once and he said, can I 528 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: ask you something? 529 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 2: Because what is going on? Like he couldn't for the 530 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 2: life of him figure it out. 531 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: So I told him, and I told him about you know, 532 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: the luncheon and everything, and he said em at Till 533 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: was my cousin. So I immediately got all the students 534 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: to come back on the bus and then he talked 535 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: for probably a good thirty minutes just about growing up 536 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: and the stories he heard. And he just told, you 537 00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: know a lot of the stories about you know all, 538 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: you know, growing up in that shadow of tragedy and 539 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: how it affected him even though he never had an 540 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: opportunity to note in it. So again, you don't ever 541 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: know who you're affecting. And I know what your book 542 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: did for the students at the time. I mean, it 543 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: was our roadmap because there was nothing else. 544 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 3: Thank you for saying that. It was such an education 545 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 3: for me, and it really it helped me not only 546 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:32,719 Speaker 3: understand this time and place, but also the present, Like 547 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 3: it gave me an understanding of how people who are 548 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 3: coming into the present with this inherited trauma, with this 549 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 3: inherited fear, with the distrust of law enforcement given their 550 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 3: participation in events like this, Like it really helped me 551 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 3: and helped build a bridge for me between the present 552 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 3: and the past. 553 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: Well, y'all, I'm going to end the seven the way 554 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: that I always do, and tonight, I'm going to end 555 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,959 Speaker 1: it with a quote from somebody from probably my original 556 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,760 Speaker 1: Zone seven. My first grade teacher, Ms. Williams, my best 557 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: friend and I from first grade, got to go visit 558 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,919 Speaker 1: with her for her hundredth birthday and I asked her 559 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: what she does to stay so young. 560 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 2: Well, she started to laugh and she said, I. 561 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: Do what I want to do and when I want 562 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: to do it every day. How lucky are we that 563 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: what she wanted to do was support us, teach us. 564 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 2: And love us. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven.