WEBVTT - Khosla Ventures Founder Vinod Khosla Talks AI Development

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts. Radio. News.

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<v Speaker 2>We have a choice in front of us. AI can

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<v Speaker 2>either be more like a new renaissance of creativity and discovery,

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<v Speaker 2>or more like a new industrial revolution of upheaval and disarray.

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<v Speaker 2>As AI becomes more capable, people must remain at the

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<v Speaker 2>center of AI decision-making. Alignment is not an abstract research question.

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<v Speaker 2>It is the work of ensuring that these systems reliably

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<v Speaker 2>remain under human control, reflect human values, and help people

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<v Speaker 2>guide the next stages of development.

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<v Speaker 3>OpenAI's Sam Altman speaking at the United Nations yesterday. This morning,

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<v Speaker 3>President Trump posting that AI will be a big topic

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<v Speaker 3>of conversation with China and that both countries want to, quote,

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<v Speaker 3>leave it exactly where it is. Let's bring in an

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<v Speaker 3>early investor of OpenAI, Vinod Khosla, founder of Khosla Ventures,

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<v Speaker 3>a veteran in all things.

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<v Speaker 1>Tech and investing.

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<v Speaker 3>Vinod, great to have you in.

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<v Speaker 1>And look, we have so much to discuss.

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<v Speaker 3>Today, but if we could just start with that, because

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<v Speaker 3>I have to say, you've been really prescient on this.

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<v Speaker 3>As early as 2023, you were basically saying the U.S.

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<v Speaker 3>can't slow down because we have this concern with what's

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<v Speaker 3>happening in China. Your man, Sam Allman, has said he's

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<v Speaker 3>open to the idea of maybe slowing things down for

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<v Speaker 3>the name of safety. I wonder what conversations you've had

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<v Speaker 3>with him and how that is developing at this moment.

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<v Speaker 4>Without going into specific conversations, I might diverge a little.

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<v Speaker 3>Sure.

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<v Speaker 4>I think much more dangerous than AI is AI in

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<v Speaker 4>the hands of our nation state adversaries. So we should

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<v Speaker 4>be very clear that's way more dangerous when there's bad

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<v Speaker 4>intent behind it than if it's on its own.

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<v Speaker 1>So can I jump in on that?

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<v Speaker 5>Because this seems to be where the problem is going

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<v Speaker 5>to be going to 2030. So we're off on a

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<v Speaker 5>good start with sort of the model front. But the

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<v Speaker 5>power problem here, now China put about five times as

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<v Speaker 5>much power as we did in 2025. They have this

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<v Speaker 5>60 gigawatt dam coming in, which is just a massive,

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<v Speaker 5>impressive project. Are we going to win sort of on

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<v Speaker 5>the models and maybe even the governance, but lose sort

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<v Speaker 5>of in the power story eventually?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, permitting and other delays are clearly slowing us down.

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<v Speaker 4>But I do think it doesn't hurt the rate of

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<v Speaker 4>model development. It does hurt the rate of deployment of

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<v Speaker 4>models for inferencing. I'm less concerned about power in the 30s,

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<v Speaker 4>early 30s and beyond, than I am today. Because the

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<v Speaker 4>power demand was growing very, very slowly. In fact, slightly

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<v Speaker 4>less than GDP the last 20 years. And it surprised everybody.

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<v Speaker 4>It shouldn't have been a surprise. We invested in Commonwealth

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<v Speaker 4>Fusion in 2018. The same year we invested in OpenAI.

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<v Speaker 4>That was 2018. But it takes 10 years to develop

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<v Speaker 4>a technology, and I'm pretty certain fusion will come out

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<v Speaker 4>very well, and we have new sources. Super-hard geothermal like

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<v Speaker 4>Mazama will come out very, very quickly. My bet is

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<v Speaker 4>by 2028 and so. So there are alternatives. We have

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<v Speaker 4>new investment in a company called Subcritical you'll hear more

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<v Speaker 4>about soon. So, there are alternatives coming, but power plants

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<v Speaker 4>take a while to build, and they respond slowly, so

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<v Speaker 4>there is a short-term problem, and that'll be solved with pricing.

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<v Speaker 3>Does that short-term problem, to Mike's point, though, make us

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<v Speaker 3>all the more vulnerable for our adversaries to speed up

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<v Speaker 3>ahead of us if what's growing in the United States,

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<v Speaker 3>at least for now, is this nimbyism and this pushback

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<v Speaker 3>to data centers getting constructed?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, this is one of the places I agree with

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<v Speaker 4>President Trump on, is we need to push ahead for

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<v Speaker 4>development of AI and power. I think in the end,

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<v Speaker 4>it will help the country tremendously. But there is a

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<v Speaker 4>short-term mismatch.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you do about that, Vinod?

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<v Speaker 4>I think some states can take the lead in here

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<v Speaker 4>and not be subject to as much nimbyism. They have

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<v Speaker 4>less population density. I do think the data center providers

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<v Speaker 4>should subsidize rates where they are. So that's very easy

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<v Speaker 4>to do because they have room in the economics to

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<v Speaker 4>do that.

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<v Speaker 5>So I'm a big fan of this fourth turning concept.

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<v Speaker 5>So every 60, 80 years, you get sort of a

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<v Speaker 5>big pivot in the politics. Now, you have been talking

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<v Speaker 5>about sort of taxing capital, and that's important with AI

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<v Speaker 5>taking maybe more jobs, disrupting industry. Maybe there's a transition

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<v Speaker 5>period where we do create more jobs, but then we

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<v Speaker 5>have to go through this kind of disruptive period. Now,

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<v Speaker 5>can you think about sort of how the political argument

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<v Speaker 5>can be made to the populace that this is an

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<v Speaker 5>appropriate thing? We just had tax cuts that seemed very

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<v Speaker 5>popular on one side of the aisle. Then we have

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<v Speaker 5>maybe more extreme views than the other that won't be

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<v Speaker 5>adopted by the center.

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<v Speaker 1>There's two entirely different questions.

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<v Speaker 4>One is deployment, and I just talked about many sources

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<v Speaker 4>of power, Commonwealth, Fusion, Rialto Fusion we are doing, we

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<v Speaker 4>are doing Mazama for biogeothermal energy, a new distributed source

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<v Speaker 4>of power coming online we'll hear soon about, I can't

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<v Speaker 4>talk about yet.

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<v Speaker 3>You're allowed to break news on this show if you

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<v Speaker 3>want to know, just letting you know.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll come back.

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, okay.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll come back.

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<v Speaker 4>And there's lots of other things we can talk about.

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<v Speaker 4>On the job side is where the real concern with

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<v Speaker 4>AI is not so much data center, I believe. And

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<v Speaker 4>I think we need to make sure people are protected.

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<v Speaker 4>I think there's a fundamental difference. Some of the people

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<v Speaker 4>think we should protect jobs. I think that's the wrong approach.

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<v Speaker 4>We should protect the people who are impacted by jobs.

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<v Speaker 4>That's a very different question. And since a long time,

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<v Speaker 4>we've been favoring capital over labor. Labor has a high

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<v Speaker 4>tax rate compared to capital, which gets preferential capital gains treatment.

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<v Speaker 4>So we are redistributing money upwards. And people always talk

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<v Speaker 4>about not redistributing money downwards. But in fact, we are

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<v Speaker 4>doing it the other way. And I think levelizing all

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<v Speaker 4>tax rates would be a really good idea. There's no

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<v Speaker 4>difference between capital gains income or ordinary income. That would

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<v Speaker 4>be beautiful.

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<v Speaker 3>Vinod, when you wrote about this in the information, I believe,

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<v Speaker 3>in your op-ed, one line stood out to me. You said,

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<v Speaker 3>capitalism is by permission of democracy, and I prefer that

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<v Speaker 3>capitalism not be revoked by the socialist tendencies emerging in

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<v Speaker 3>our society among voters. These two things are happening at

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<v Speaker 3>the same time, this great anxiety just generally plus AI

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<v Speaker 3>creating more anxiety. How fearful are you that we could

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<v Speaker 3>undergo a structural shift that impacts the very project of

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<v Speaker 3>capitalism itself?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that's why I wrote my piece.

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<v Speaker 4>I do think it can be impacted, and there is

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<v Speaker 4>a trend towards socialism among the younger set. That's just

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<v Speaker 4>well understood in all the surveys. But it can be

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<v Speaker 4>reversed if we do something about it. It's pretty easy

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<v Speaker 4>to take $ 400 billion that I talked about in my

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<v Speaker 4>op-ed per year and be deficit neutral. I think that

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<v Speaker 4>deficit neutral is key, and the money is key to

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<v Speaker 4>help people who are displaced and tell them they will

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<v Speaker 4>be taken care of. I think we will have the

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<v Speaker 4>ability in the next 10 years to provide a great

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<v Speaker 4>safety net behind people, and that's how we protect people

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<v Speaker 4>without saying you can't change jobs or displace jobs.

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<v Speaker 5>So you're speaking this well and you're laying it out factually.

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<v Speaker 5>Do you see the rest of the venture capital world

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<v Speaker 5>sort of getting this? Because I think it was a

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<v Speaker 5>fumble here to not get ahead of this nimbyism that

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<v Speaker 5>we're seeing in AI and the angst from this massive disruption.

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<v Speaker 5>We all know but really don't understand how it works

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<v Speaker 5>and how it will impact us personally. What else is

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<v Speaker 5>going on sort of with the guys you talked to

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<v Speaker 5>at your level?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I do think there's a fumble here. And I

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<v Speaker 4>do think we didn't lead with the benefits of AI.

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<v Speaker 4>For one or two dollars a month, we could provide

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<v Speaker 4>every American with free primary care. We could provide every

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<v Speaker 4>kid for one or two dollars a month with AI

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<v Speaker 4>tutors for their children. personalized tutors, all this is trivial

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<v Speaker 4>and will reduce downstream costs that we see in our

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<v Speaker 4>society from lack of enough access to primary care, we

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<v Speaker 4>get higher downstream healthcare costs. So there's lots of things

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<v Speaker 4>to lead with that benefit people and they see the

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<v Speaker 4>benefit without being mostly scared about their jobs. So I

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<v Speaker 4>do think there's a fumble, but there is a way

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<v Speaker 4>to address it. I suspect Just like President Trump took

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<v Speaker 4>up the immigration platform last time and played it to

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<v Speaker 4>the hill, even with sort of pretty ridiculous pitches like,

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<v Speaker 4>immigrants are eating your pets. We can, and some presidential candidate,

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<v Speaker 4>I hope, takes up a platform like this, like radically

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<v Speaker 4>reinventing the basis of taxes.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you see anyone like that, Vinod, out there? I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>this political environment already is moving at a glacial pace.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you see any political leaders you think are willing

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<v Speaker 3>to take up the mantle? I....

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<v Speaker 4>You know, we didn't think anybody would take up the

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<v Speaker 4>immigration platform in the same way. So I think to

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<v Speaker 4>be a differentiated candidate, you have to have something unique

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<v Speaker 4>to offer. And I think what I proposed is a

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<v Speaker 4>unique thing. I hope somebody takes it up for 2028.

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<v Speaker 3>I wonder if it was a mistake then to this

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<v Speaker 3>point you're talking about in this missed opportunity to really

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<v Speaker 3>communicate what AI does. If it was a mistake to

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<v Speaker 3>have these AI leaders from Dario to Sam to Elon say, okay,

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<v Speaker 3>maybe there is a safety issue and we need to

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<v Speaker 3>slow down, was that the wrong message to be sending

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<v Speaker 3>to the public then?

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<v Speaker 4>I do think that's the wrong message. I do think

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<v Speaker 4>we have to focus on our competition with China. Whoever

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<v Speaker 4>wins in AI, and I talked about this for a long,

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<v Speaker 4>long time, is going to build the economic race and

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<v Speaker 4>hence the influence race globally. Southeast Asia, Latin America, Africa

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<v Speaker 4>adapt will be, the political philosophy will be a function

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<v Speaker 4>of who wins the AI race. And economic power will

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<v Speaker 4>reside with whoever wins the AI race. That's why it's

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<v Speaker 4>so important, and that's why I think President Trump has

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<v Speaker 4>it right.

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<v Speaker 1>So I do hope we get behind this.

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<v Speaker 5>I'll throw you a curveball. You gave me hope with energy.

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<v Speaker 5>Quantum computing, that's sort of the next unknown. Another concept

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<v Speaker 5>very hard for the main street to sort of understand.

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<v Speaker 5>We can say partner with AI, can do all kinds

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<v Speaker 5>of things.

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<v Speaker 1>I've read the books.

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<v Speaker 5>You see things others don't. You get pitched things others don't.

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<v Speaker 5>This is super national security stuff. Where are you on

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<v Speaker 5>quantum computing and should we expect developments there anytime soon?

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<v Speaker 4>So I've looked at every quantum computing effort in this

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<v Speaker 4>country for the last 10 years, turned down every single one.

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<v Speaker 1>Only this year, I changed my mind.

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<v Speaker 4>And so we made our first quantum computing investment after

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<v Speaker 4>looking at a dozen of them. And I do think

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<v Speaker 4>there's a radical breakthrough. Previously, the question was, which is

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<v Speaker 4>the best quantum computing company? I've always looked at what's

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<v Speaker 4>a good enough quantum computing company. to solve what's technically

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<v Speaker 4>called the Shor's algorithm, which is very, very disruptive. I

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<v Speaker 4>think that happens before 2030, which is very disruptive, and

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<v Speaker 4>it's an area we can also beat China in. But

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<v Speaker 4>there's other areas where we can beat China in. We

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<v Speaker 4>are very dependent on minerals and materials. I think there's

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<v Speaker 4>huge effort in this country to do that, to reintroduce

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<v Speaker 4>those industries. We've seen AI really help in refining, in mining,

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<v Speaker 4>so lots of hope in the minerals and metals. We

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<v Speaker 4>have Mariana Minerals in that area. I'm very excited about

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<v Speaker 4>what they can do. They're opening up shutdown copper mines

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<v Speaker 4>in Utah today. This is climate week. Also other heavy

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<v Speaker 4>things like cement. We have Fortera there that actually produces

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<v Speaker 4>cement cheaper than high carbon emission cement. We have Herta

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<v Speaker 4>that produces steel that's cheaper than high carbon emission steel.

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<v Speaker 4>So when you don't defy the laws of economic gravity,

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<v Speaker 4>you don't have to worry about the climate benefits. If

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<v Speaker 4>the climate technologies are cheaper than their fossil competitors, That's

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<v Speaker 4>the way to approach it.

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<v Speaker 3>Vinod, we're just about out of time, but I'd remiss

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<v Speaker 3>if I didn't just ask you quickly about another one

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<v Speaker 3>of your investments, and I'm sure we'll talk more about

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<v Speaker 3>it later. But look, you, again, I said you're a

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<v Speaker 3>multi-decade veteran in this industry. Reports are that you're also

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<v Speaker 3>in the middle of raising a fund. You've been doing

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<v Speaker 3>this for a while. Why add NFL to that portfolio?

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<v Speaker 3>Why buy the Seahawks among all the many things you're

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<v Speaker 3>already doing?

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<v Speaker 1>First, how often do you get to buy a Super

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<v Speaker 1>Bowl winning team? Why not? Me, probably never. You, maybe once.

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<v Speaker 4>I have great passion for football. It also is a

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<v Speaker 4>great hedge to the AI world. I think live events,

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<v Speaker 4>especially live sports, will not be impacted by AI. It's

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<v Speaker 4>one of the areas that won't be impacted.

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<v Speaker 1>Ticket prices agree. Vinod, thank you so much for joining us.

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<v Speaker 3>It's been an absolute pleasure to have you. Whenever you're

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<v Speaker 3>in New York, please stop by. Vinod Khosla, founder of,

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<v Speaker 3>of course, Khosla Ventures.