WEBVTT - Snowball - Episode 5: Black Widow 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:24.716 Pushkin. This episode contains occasional course language, and we've used 0:00:24.716 --> 0:00:28.236 some voice actors to bring emails to life. 0:00:29.156 --> 0:00:32.516 I've been trying to understand how my brother's ex wife, 0:00:32.876 --> 0:00:36.556 Leslie Minuchian thinks. My journey so far has been like 0:00:36.596 --> 0:00:41.956 tunneling through the matrix. I've been gradually digging deeper into 0:00:41.956 --> 0:00:46.596 the world Leslie lives in. Actually, it's kind of like 0:00:46.676 --> 0:00:49.836 two worlds. It seems like Leslie has a fantasy world 0:00:50.076 --> 0:00:54.516 where she invents characters and a Hollywood movie about her life, 0:00:54.636 --> 0:00:57.556 but she also lives in the real world where people 0:00:57.596 --> 0:01:01.156 like my brother Greg are drawn into her spirals. 0:01:01.636 --> 0:01:06.596 Oh, I was absolutely like a serving dark mate. 0:01:06.796 --> 0:01:08.796 Greg called me the other day, and I guess he's 0:01:08.836 --> 0:01:10.236 been thinking about that too. 0:01:10.436 --> 0:01:16.356 Like who's the most prime target for an American female 0:01:16.476 --> 0:01:21.316 con artist with flat hair? It's great, warts you couldn't 0:01:21.316 --> 0:01:24.636 have lined it up better. Honestly, I would suggest I 0:01:24.716 --> 0:01:30.316 was the most obvious target. I was looking for the 0:01:30.356 --> 0:01:34.596 North American accent. It was done in the day one man. 0:01:35.636 --> 0:01:38.316 So do you think that she actually knew that as well? 0:01:38.356 --> 0:01:41.716 And I guess it just made things easier for her now. 0:01:41.836 --> 0:01:44.076 She didn't know that because she didn't know who I was, 0:01:44.436 --> 0:01:51.756 but it was the collision of multi fraudster versus the 0:01:51.836 --> 0:01:55.676 other side being someone wanting to believe in the American treatment. 0:01:58.796 --> 0:02:00.876 So far, I found out about the trouble Leslie got 0:02:00.876 --> 0:02:03.636 into before she came to New Zealand. But now I 0:02:03.676 --> 0:02:06.236 want to know about what happened after Leslie left Greg 0:02:06.516 --> 0:02:10.236 the Dragonfly and New Zealand behind. And the only way 0:02:10.316 --> 0:02:13.876 to find out more is to get closer to Leslie. Literally. 0:02:15.556 --> 0:02:18.876 I'm on her home turf in California with my other brother, Simon. 0:02:19.396 --> 0:02:21.556 It's hot and sunny, like California should be. 0:02:22.196 --> 0:02:25.476 We're doing our best detective impressions in Hawaiian shirts and 0:02:25.516 --> 0:02:29.036 a muscle car. We're definitely more flood of the Concords 0:02:29.076 --> 0:02:34.036 than true detective. All right, we have a car running 0:02:34.596 --> 0:02:39.236 a gentle rumble in her background. It's a per per, 0:02:39.796 --> 0:02:42.956 but we've got good leads and we're determined to find 0:02:42.956 --> 0:02:49.476 out more. We are today heading to a northern Californian 0:02:49.596 --> 0:02:53.956 town called Passer Robles. I'm following this trail to find 0:02:53.996 --> 0:02:59.436 answers for my family and to find Leslie. Let's at 0:02:59.436 --> 0:03:04.716 the road, sweet, I'm Molly Watts, and this is Snowball. 0:03:11.116 --> 0:03:14.036 We do not even call her by her name anymore, 0:03:14.316 --> 0:03:15.036 so we call her. 0:03:14.956 --> 0:03:15.596 The Black Widow. 0:03:15.796 --> 0:03:18.036 She has a laugh that could you know you hear 0:03:18.076 --> 0:03:18.836 it across the room. 0:03:19.996 --> 0:03:23.156 How did she get over on you? How did this happen? 0:03:23.836 --> 0:03:26.556 She was just kind of reckless with everything. I don't 0:03:26.596 --> 0:03:28.316 think she ever thought she would actually get caught. 0:03:28.796 --> 0:03:30.796 And he basically said, when I got home, there was. 0:03:30.756 --> 0:03:33.036 A bong load, a martini and a blow job, and 0:03:33.076 --> 0:03:34.476 I just didn't think about it. 0:03:35.476 --> 0:03:37.436 I don't think she'll talk to you. I think she'll 0:03:37.476 --> 0:03:39.316 see you and she'll run out the back door. 0:03:39.876 --> 0:03:43.996 I've had sony dreams of like talking to her. I 0:03:44.116 --> 0:03:46.516 just want to ask her, like, oh God, like why 0:03:46.516 --> 0:03:47.436 did you do this? 0:03:53.636 --> 0:03:55.836 Where we're hitting is about three and a half hours 0:03:55.876 --> 0:04:00.796 northwest of la Driving into wine country, there's vineyards and 0:04:01.036 --> 0:04:07.356 boosed up baby boomers everywhere. It was only four years 0:04:07.396 --> 0:04:10.436 after Leslie left my brother Greg and the failing Dragonfly 0:04:10.516 --> 0:04:13.356 and in Zed when she popped up hair and passerobles 0:04:15.316 --> 0:04:23.076 running another restaurant. This one was called Phenomenal. That's phenomenal 0:04:23.236 --> 0:04:27.556 with an F. A review of Leslie's new restaurant appeared 0:04:27.596 --> 0:04:29.476 on trevel Passo dot com. 0:04:29.756 --> 0:04:33.236 The whole phenomenal concept was extremely well thought out and 0:04:33.396 --> 0:04:37.556 executed by owner Leslie Manukian. Her prior experience of owning 0:04:37.556 --> 0:04:40.876 and operating a burger Barron Lake Tahoe, a California cuisine, 0:04:40.876 --> 0:04:43.876 fish and steak restaurant in Maui, and an artsy breakfast 0:04:43.916 --> 0:04:46.236 cafe in New Zealand taught her what is required to 0:04:46.276 --> 0:04:48.436 launch a successful business in the food and wine space. 0:04:50.876 --> 0:04:53.396 That and eating in forty seven countries in seven years. 0:04:56.276 --> 0:05:00.116 That's only a bit cheeky Leslie telling people about her 0:05:00.356 --> 0:05:05.396 successful bars and Tahoe, Hawaii and now an artsy breakfast 0:05:05.396 --> 0:05:08.396 cafe and in zed Lucky. The journalist who wrote that 0:05:08.396 --> 0:05:15.516 didn't check references. So here's another grand opening, another hospitality business, 0:05:16.076 --> 0:05:22.956 and maybe this time things turned out differently. Nah. Before 0:05:22.956 --> 0:05:25.276 we came to passer Robeles, I tracked down the people 0:05:25.316 --> 0:05:31.996 involved with this restaurant and it sounds messy. Here we are, 0:05:32.036 --> 0:05:36.636 Simon driving through passer Roobuls. The streets are really wide, 0:05:37.436 --> 0:05:41.116 The houses look like they're made of lego in that 0:05:41.196 --> 0:05:44.756 they have a tiny little stoop, and that they're all 0:05:44.836 --> 0:05:54.996 perfectly trimmed and painted. Hello, we're all right to park 0:05:55.076 --> 0:05:59.276 this monstrosity of a car. Here are we? This is 0:05:59.356 --> 0:06:03.076 the real owner of that restaurant phenomenal. He's happy to talk, 0:06:03.236 --> 0:06:06.516 but I've changed his name to Cameron in person. He 0:06:06.596 --> 0:06:10.076 doesn't want to have any more personal or professional impact 0:06:10.156 --> 0:06:13.636 from what happened to him. Thank you for having us. 0:06:13.796 --> 0:06:17.636 He's a business guy, engineering background, big build. He's got 0:06:17.636 --> 0:06:20.556 a gray goaty. Cameron invited Simon and I round to 0:06:20.636 --> 0:06:22.916 his really nice house. It's on a hill with a 0:06:22.996 --> 0:06:25.396 view of trees and other big villas in the neighborhood. 0:06:25.796 --> 0:06:27.756 To get up to his front door, we climbed a 0:06:27.836 --> 0:06:31.716 rock staircase through a terraced garden. It's a blue sky day. 0:06:31.796 --> 0:06:34.076 Is it always like this? Yes? Pretty much, so we're 0:06:34.076 --> 0:06:36.996 sitting out on the balcony. Cameron says that when he 0:06:37.036 --> 0:06:39.956 first met Leslie, he had just been through a divorce. 0:06:40.436 --> 0:06:42.756 One night, he was having dinner with his mum and 0:06:42.916 --> 0:06:44.356 Leslie was their waiter. 0:06:44.996 --> 0:06:48.196 She seemed to indicate that she was worldly, adventurous and 0:06:48.836 --> 0:06:51.956 wanted to have the zastralafe and just enjoy life. 0:06:53.516 --> 0:06:56.756 So they start dating. They were only together a few 0:06:56.796 --> 0:06:59.076 months when things jumped to the next level, and. 0:06:59.036 --> 0:07:00.716 Next thing I know, she was just there a lot more, 0:07:00.756 --> 0:07:03.036 and she's like, well, hey, I shouldn't be paying rent 0:07:03.036 --> 0:07:05.116 when I'm here a lot anyway, so I'll just move in. 0:07:05.156 --> 0:07:07.236 And it just kind of happened. It wasn't like a discussion, 0:07:07.276 --> 0:07:09.116 It just kind of kind of unfolded. 0:07:09.636 --> 0:07:12.156 Cameron was okay with that though. He thought it'd be 0:07:12.196 --> 0:07:15.316 fun to have Leslie around, and it sounds like he 0:07:15.436 --> 0:07:21.356 was right. Cameron's friends remember Leslie joining me cr We. 0:07:21.396 --> 0:07:24.316 Instantly became friends. I mean, she was easy to talk to, 0:07:25.196 --> 0:07:30.196 she was interesting and interested in everyone. I mean it 0:07:30.276 --> 0:07:34.236 was just so so easy to get along, and she 0:07:34.316 --> 0:07:36.636 always had fun things. You know, she always came up 0:07:36.676 --> 0:07:39.236 with fun things to do, and you definitely had the 0:07:39.276 --> 0:07:42.196 sense that she like came from money. 0:07:42.236 --> 0:07:46.236 But another of Cameron's friends I spoke to Rickens, Leslie 0:07:46.276 --> 0:07:48.156 wasn't his usual type. 0:07:48.316 --> 0:07:51.076 She seems very nice. I did think that she was 0:07:51.116 --> 0:07:52.836 an odd match. 0:07:53.076 --> 0:07:56.276 Didn't seem his uh, you know, his typical cup of kea. 0:07:56.156 --> 0:07:59.356 For a relationship way, but very outgoing. 0:08:00.716 --> 0:08:02.556 I just different differences. 0:08:02.836 --> 0:08:06.196 Even in her appearance. She's loud, she has you know, 0:08:06.436 --> 0:08:08.996 large hair, long nails, paint. 0:08:09.516 --> 0:08:11.036 So I think that it was a kind of an 0:08:11.036 --> 0:08:13.396 out of character relationship for him. 0:08:13.876 --> 0:08:16.036 Cameron's mate asked him what he saw in Lesley? 0:08:16.676 --> 0:08:20.196 How did she get over on you? How did this happen? 0:08:21.356 --> 0:08:23.356 And he basically said, when I got home, there was 0:08:23.396 --> 0:08:25.756 a bong load, a martini and a blowjob, and I 0:08:25.836 --> 0:08:27.876 just didn't think about it. I just said yes and 0:08:27.916 --> 0:08:28.796 I signed. 0:08:29.996 --> 0:08:30.916 We'll be right back. 0:08:38.356 --> 0:08:43.036 Lisley was also adventurous with all her worldly experience. She 0:08:43.156 --> 0:08:46.876 encouraged Cameron's desire to travel and they started planning a 0:08:46.916 --> 0:08:47.796 trip down Undone. 0:08:49.196 --> 0:08:51.396 I've never been to Australia, so I thought that would 0:08:51.436 --> 0:08:53.996 be great, Let's go to Australia. I was in the 0:08:53.996 --> 0:08:57.196 process of actually getting scuba dive certified, and so the 0:08:57.276 --> 0:08:59.076 goal was to go down there, do some wine tasting 0:08:59.076 --> 0:09:02.436 in Brosa, go see Melbourne, make sure I see all 0:09:02.476 --> 0:09:04.316 the sites, and just make a trip out of it. 0:09:04.516 --> 0:09:07.196 So flights were booked, hotels are booked. 0:09:08.236 --> 0:09:11.876 But Lisley's checkered past was about to interfere with their 0:09:11.916 --> 0:09:16.756 plans because back in New Zealand, my dad was still 0:09:16.756 --> 0:09:19.436 trying to figure out what had happened and where Leslie 0:09:19.476 --> 0:09:23.556 had gone. Dad was reading about book deals, movie stars 0:09:23.636 --> 0:09:27.476 and boats, and Leslie's emails like you heard last episode. 0:09:28.116 --> 0:09:30.236 He thought it all might be real, and he was 0:09:30.276 --> 0:09:33.076 wondering how Leslie could get away from New Zealand and 0:09:33.156 --> 0:09:36.436 her guarantee of the Dragonfly Bank loan without paying a cent. 0:09:37.476 --> 0:09:40.676 So Dad arranged for a private investigator to find Leslie 0:09:41.556 --> 0:09:43.796 to see if all the glitz and glamour was legit 0:09:44.276 --> 0:09:46.276 and to see if she would forfeit her boat to 0:09:46.356 --> 0:09:50.476 help pay off the loan. And this American PI he 0:09:50.516 --> 0:09:54.956 found her at Cameron's house. We know what happened next 0:09:55.196 --> 0:09:58.756 from Leslie's perspective because she emailed a friend about it. 0:09:59.276 --> 0:10:03.316 A private investigator showed up at my door. Dave Wartz 0:10:03.396 --> 0:10:07.196 hired him to find me. I kindly invited him in 0:10:07.436 --> 0:10:10.796 and we had a long talk about all the accusations 0:10:10.836 --> 0:10:12.036 that they have made against me. 0:10:12.716 --> 0:10:15.956 The PI found Leslie so convincing that from the report 0:10:16.036 --> 0:10:19.196 he sent back and her emails, it seems like she 0:10:19.276 --> 0:10:23.476 managed to flip him to her side. Leslie even refers 0:10:23.516 --> 0:10:26.156 to him as my PI at the end of her 0:10:26.196 --> 0:10:29.916 email to her mate. Even though the PI was working 0:10:29.916 --> 0:10:34.076 for my Dad, he ended up giving her information, including 0:10:34.116 --> 0:10:35.596 one crucial piece of intel. 0:10:36.716 --> 0:10:39.556 The PI told me, I have a warrant for my arrest. 0:10:39.676 --> 0:10:43.756 In n said it wasn't a warrant for arrest, but 0:10:43.836 --> 0:10:46.396 the cops told me that they would be alerted if 0:10:46.476 --> 0:10:51.276 Leslie set foot in New Zealand. And those flights that 0:10:51.356 --> 0:10:54.156 Leslie and Cameron had to Australia only a week later, 0:10:54.716 --> 0:10:58.116 they were connecting through New Zealand. If they went on 0:10:58.156 --> 0:11:00.556 their holiday, Leslie might have had to have a little 0:11:00.676 --> 0:11:07.156 chat with the Kiwi cops. So she panicked. Leslie had 0:11:07.196 --> 0:11:08.916 to come up with an excuse as to why they 0:11:08.956 --> 0:11:10.396 couldn't get on that plane. 0:11:10.756 --> 0:11:14.516 Next thing I know, she says, there was She came 0:11:14.596 --> 0:11:16.436 up with a couple different stories and so but the 0:11:16.476 --> 0:11:19.916 final story that we landed on was that there were 0:11:19.996 --> 0:11:23.156 so many major storms happening in Australia at the time. 0:11:23.196 --> 0:11:26.596 There's that the Great Barrier Reef was going to be cloudy. 0:11:26.636 --> 0:11:28.316 We weren't going to be able to scuba dive there 0:11:28.316 --> 0:11:30.636 because you wouldn't see anything. So the whole purpose of 0:11:30.716 --> 0:11:32.156 you know, one of the purposes to go there is 0:11:32.196 --> 0:11:35.356 to enjoy the scuba diving and snorkeling and stuff. So 0:11:35.556 --> 0:11:36.916 it was based on weather. 0:11:36.996 --> 0:11:37.476 At the time. 0:11:38.036 --> 0:11:40.116 They were meant to be meeting some friends in Australia 0:11:40.316 --> 0:11:43.396 and they caught a different excuse from Leslie in an email. 0:11:44.236 --> 0:11:49.756 I have the worst news ever. Cameron and I are 0:11:49.836 --> 0:11:53.156 not going to make it to Australia. As you know, 0:11:53.476 --> 0:11:57.876 Cameron uses air miles for travel to Australia. Well, we 0:11:57.876 --> 0:12:01.756 were printing down all of our arrangements and Cameron noticed 0:12:01.796 --> 0:12:05.076 that our names were spelled wrong on our ticketing information. 0:12:06.396 --> 0:12:09.476 I'm so upset. I do not even know where to begin. 0:12:10.236 --> 0:12:12.756 I have been on the phone all night canceling and 0:12:12.876 --> 0:12:13.876 changing bookings. 0:12:14.836 --> 0:12:17.836 So their tickets were void because Cameron got their names 0:12:17.876 --> 0:12:21.476 wrong on the booking. It's a testament to how doggedly 0:12:21.556 --> 0:12:25.636 Leslie can tell us story that everyone just let it slide. 0:12:27.116 --> 0:12:30.156 Leslie was spinning an even more important story for Cameron. 0:12:30.676 --> 0:12:33.956 It was Leslie's greatest hit story of being a successful 0:12:33.996 --> 0:12:38.676 restaurant heur, and predictably, it wasn't long before Leslie started 0:12:38.716 --> 0:12:41.796 suggesting that Cameron should invest a ton of money in 0:12:41.836 --> 0:12:45.556 a new restaurant, and like a lot of people before him, 0:12:45.716 --> 0:12:46.516 Cameron was keen. 0:12:47.396 --> 0:12:49.116 So I thought, between the tourists, you know, if she's 0:12:49.116 --> 0:12:50.836 already done it four or five times, this would be 0:12:50.876 --> 0:12:53.316 an easy situation. I can invest in this, I can 0:12:53.396 --> 0:12:56.116 do this and make a nice successful business in the 0:12:56.276 --> 0:12:57.196 local area here. 0:12:57.436 --> 0:13:05.316 Eventually Cameron agreed and they launched Phenomenal. The restaurant started strongly. 0:13:05.716 --> 0:13:08.596 The headline of that review you heard before was the 0:13:08.636 --> 0:13:12.356 phenomenal story of a great new Pessa Robels Restaurant Love, 0:13:12.396 --> 0:13:16.556 a pun title, Cameron says. Lesley wasn't actually employed at 0:13:16.556 --> 0:13:19.956 the restaurant, but as his girlfriend. She was helping out 0:13:19.956 --> 0:13:20.836 with a bunch of stuff. 0:13:21.636 --> 0:13:24.316 She went and basically told everybody that was her restaurant, 0:13:24.436 --> 0:13:26.756 and most people found out much later that she didn't 0:13:26.756 --> 0:13:28.636 even put a penny in there, not a dime, not 0:13:29.156 --> 0:13:32.196 a dollar. She did spend time in there, but you know, 0:13:32.276 --> 0:13:34.916 she was just kind of reckless with everything, including when 0:13:34.956 --> 0:13:37.676 we were purchasing equipment. You know, we were buying equipment, 0:13:37.756 --> 0:13:39.996 and all of a sudden, next day, know, she was 0:13:40.036 --> 0:13:42.516 returning something and then going and getting some other piece 0:13:42.516 --> 0:13:44.276 of equipment, the same piece of equipment with a lease, 0:13:44.516 --> 0:13:47.036 and so the money flow would just be crazy in 0:13:47.036 --> 0:13:48.956 the fact that wait, I just bought a new ten 0:13:48.996 --> 0:13:50.996 burner stove and now all of a sudden, I'm leasing one. 0:13:51.036 --> 0:13:53.236 Where'd that money go? And so it was it was 0:13:53.276 --> 0:13:55.836 things like that where it just didn't make sense. 0:13:56.676 --> 0:13:59.876 As Cameron talks about how Leslie was involved at his restaurant, 0:14:00.276 --> 0:14:03.836 I've got deja vo, Cameron says, strange stuff was going 0:14:03.876 --> 0:14:07.116 on with the accounting. Phenomenal was a tap us joint, 0:14:07.476 --> 0:14:09.596 but it sounds like it was the book that were 0:14:09.596 --> 0:14:13.756 getting cooked, or at least a bit scrambled. 0:14:15.036 --> 0:14:17.516 One time, Pugenie called me and said, by the way, 0:14:17.556 --> 0:14:19.116 we're shutting your electric off, and I'm like, what are 0:14:19.116 --> 0:14:20.916 you talking about. I repaid him and they're like, no, 0:14:20.956 --> 0:14:23.236 you're like six grand in the hall and I'm like, no, 0:14:23.316 --> 0:14:24.916 I have these receipts. I sent him the receives and 0:14:24.956 --> 0:14:27.236 they said these are fraudulent. She took the logo from 0:14:27.276 --> 0:14:29.916 their website, put it onto a blank piece of paper, 0:14:30.236 --> 0:14:32.476 wrote it out, this is your receipt for this dollar 0:14:32.516 --> 0:14:35.876 amount for this account and had that in the books 0:14:35.876 --> 0:14:38.876 as if she had paid it. 0:14:38.876 --> 0:14:41.356 It wasn't just the electricity bill that wasn't getting paid. 0:14:41.876 --> 0:14:44.676 Quite early on, someone stuck a flyer on the windows 0:14:44.716 --> 0:14:48.036 of the restaurant saying, shame on you, Phenomenal restaurant. You 0:14:48.076 --> 0:14:51.516 are doing business at the expense of local subcontractors. Pay 0:14:51.556 --> 0:14:55.356 your bills. When I asked Cameron if I can see 0:14:55.356 --> 0:14:59.476 some of this stuff, he takes me inside. Cameron goes 0:14:59.476 --> 0:15:02.596 to the filing cabinet and comes back arms full. He 0:15:02.636 --> 0:15:05.156 dumps his papers on the polished wood dining room table. 0:15:06.196 --> 0:15:10.276 You've got a couple of red folder's hair. One of 0:15:10.276 --> 0:15:12.836 them's caught black widow written on it. 0:15:14.716 --> 0:15:18.756 So most of my friends we do not even call 0:15:18.796 --> 0:15:22.476 her by her name anymore. She's not worthy of being named, 0:15:22.716 --> 0:15:24.036 so we call her the black widow. 0:15:24.196 --> 0:15:28.276 Of course, the black Widow is famously eight sis romantic 0:15:28.436 --> 0:15:39.716 partner off to a little while. Right exactly, Cameron spreads 0:15:39.716 --> 0:15:41.476 out a bunch of papers on the table in front 0:15:41.476 --> 0:15:43.556 of us and starts to take me through what happened. 0:15:43.836 --> 0:15:45.316 So what I have in front of me here are 0:15:45.356 --> 0:15:47.876 a bunch of bank documents. And you know, the thing 0:15:47.956 --> 0:15:50.036 is that, you know, when you're running a business, you 0:15:50.036 --> 0:15:52.556 don't typically run it through a lot of cash based things. 0:15:52.596 --> 0:15:54.436 You want to make sure there's a paper trail. But 0:15:54.516 --> 0:15:58.276 for whatever reason, she chose to go and withdraw cash. 0:15:58.396 --> 0:16:01.356 So I can't prove that she's taking this cash and 0:16:01.396 --> 0:16:03.596 put it in her pocket or her bank accounts. But 0:16:03.716 --> 0:16:05.956 all I can do is say, well, here, okay, this 0:16:06.036 --> 0:16:08.996 month alone, there was six thousand dollars withdrawal by cash, 0:16:09.196 --> 0:16:12.796 five thousand dollars, five thousand dollars. There's another five thousand. 0:16:12.996 --> 0:16:17.236 There's another three thousand that's in thirty days withdrawal of cash. 0:16:17.676 --> 0:16:20.676 Cameron could keep going next month and he does another. 0:16:20.596 --> 0:16:23.596 Five thousand dollars, two thousand dollars, three thousand. 0:16:23.676 --> 0:16:26.636 While all this was happening, Leslie wasn't being paid like 0:16:26.716 --> 0:16:30.236 she was on the phenomenal staff. Cameron says the deal 0:16:30.436 --> 0:16:33.316 was until the business started making money. He was covering 0:16:33.356 --> 0:16:38.876 everything like food, rent and overseas holidays. But maybe Leslie 0:16:38.876 --> 0:16:41.436 thought she was entitled to some money in the meantime. 0:16:42.036 --> 0:16:44.676 It's just the next thing he shows me looks like 0:16:44.836 --> 0:16:47.876 a murky way for Leslie to sort herself out with cash. 0:16:48.196 --> 0:16:51.316 He pulls out some scans of checks. He reckons Leslie 0:16:51.316 --> 0:16:52.556 forged his signature on. 0:16:53.036 --> 0:16:53.676 Oh look at that. 0:16:53.716 --> 0:16:56.636 It happens to be to her father, Andrew Manukian for 0:16:56.716 --> 0:17:00.036 six hundred and fifty dollars minimum credit card payment. Is 0:17:00.076 --> 0:17:02.076 what it's showing here, not my signature. 0:17:02.796 --> 0:17:05.916 Then there's a real big boy. Cameron says he made 0:17:05.916 --> 0:17:08.676 the mistake of leaving a blank check around for emergencies. 0:17:09.396 --> 0:17:11.756 You know, this is something that is the most disturbing. 0:17:13.556 --> 0:17:19.236 Thirty thousand dollars thirty eight hundred and fifty dollars made 0:17:19.276 --> 0:17:22.556 out to cash. I have no idea where the money went. 0:17:22.676 --> 0:17:25.036 I mean, I'm an idiot for allowing that to happen. 0:17:25.796 --> 0:17:29.636 I mean that's actually probably physically quite a lot of piper. 0:17:30.156 --> 0:17:32.476 Like I would imagine going up to the bank teller 0:17:32.516 --> 0:17:35.076 and handing that chick across, and I would sort of 0:17:35.156 --> 0:17:38.036 have to go into the vault and you know, get 0:17:38.076 --> 0:17:40.796 a bag and manage your approval and all that kind 0:17:40.836 --> 0:17:41.236 of stuff. 0:17:41.596 --> 0:17:44.116 So it goes on and on and on. 0:17:45.076 --> 0:17:47.076 I mean, did you think about going to the police 0:17:47.116 --> 0:17:47.756 when you found this? 0:17:48.756 --> 0:17:50.876 Yes, it's too painful to go through. 0:17:50.876 --> 0:17:54.356 That part of it was the survivability piece, is that, 0:17:54.676 --> 0:17:56.356 you know, I still had to move on in my life. 0:17:56.516 --> 0:17:58.676 I didn't lose my house, but I was close. I 0:17:58.756 --> 0:18:00.636 did lose my car. I had to let that go, 0:18:01.036 --> 0:18:03.356 you know, And so there's been so many things along 0:18:03.356 --> 0:18:05.076 that way that I'm like, you know what, I just 0:18:05.116 --> 0:18:07.676 need to figure out a way to survive. And not 0:18:07.716 --> 0:18:10.036 only that, it's a small town, so you know, it 0:18:10.556 --> 0:18:13.476 was better for me to just suck it up, understand 0:18:13.476 --> 0:18:15.596 that I made a mistake with who I partnered with, 0:18:16.236 --> 0:18:19.076 and chuck it up as a life experience and move on. 0:18:20.676 --> 0:18:25.636 So it all happens again, allegations of fake documents, forge checks, 0:18:26.076 --> 0:18:29.636 mysterious lumps of cash going missing. Then Leslie gets to 0:18:29.796 --> 0:18:33.876 walk away. Only this time it was Cameron's conscious choice 0:18:33.916 --> 0:18:36.756 not to pursue her, even if he wanted to change 0:18:36.756 --> 0:18:40.196 his mind. Now it's probably too late. There's a statute 0:18:40.236 --> 0:18:48.436 of limitations on fraud in California of three years. We 0:18:48.476 --> 0:18:51.116 sit around the dining room table talking for ages and 0:18:51.196 --> 0:18:54.476 Simon starts to wonder, if Cameron didn't talk to the cops, 0:18:54.636 --> 0:18:55.556 then why us. 0:18:55.996 --> 0:18:58.356 Obviously you decided not to kind of approach anyone else 0:18:58.356 --> 0:19:01.316 about it. What made you talk to Olian leads us 0:19:01.316 --> 0:19:02.196 to be sitting here together? 0:19:02.996 --> 0:19:06.236 So I guess, first and foremost, I think the fact 0:19:06.236 --> 0:19:10.036 that I had it bad, but your brother Greg had 0:19:10.076 --> 0:19:11.276 it way worse. 0:19:11.076 --> 0:19:11.756 In your parents. 0:19:12.156 --> 0:19:14.156 So for me at that point in time, it was 0:19:14.236 --> 0:19:15.636 kind of like, well, you know, what if there's a 0:19:15.636 --> 0:19:18.276 way that I can somehow help and whether it's helped 0:19:18.316 --> 0:19:21.796 this be successful or help her to be stopped or 0:19:21.836 --> 0:19:23.996 to somehow help someone else have closure. 0:19:24.956 --> 0:19:26.156 That was pretty important to me. 0:19:26.836 --> 0:19:29.796 But it turns out it wasn't that easy inviting us 0:19:29.796 --> 0:19:32.916 to come over. Cameron's partner has been sitting with us 0:19:32.956 --> 0:19:36.156 this whole time, nodding a head to what she already knows, 0:19:36.516 --> 0:19:39.276 and at times looking pretty shocked as she finds out more. 0:19:39.796 --> 0:19:43.756 When Cameron told me about it, initially, I could just 0:19:43.796 --> 0:19:46.156 see this black cloud above his head and he was 0:19:46.276 --> 0:19:49.116 just for a few days there, he didn't know if 0:19:49.116 --> 0:19:51.716 he wanted to do it or not. And I was 0:19:51.756 --> 0:19:56.396 excited about the possibility of this happening because I knew 0:19:57.196 --> 0:20:01.796 just from the outside looking at Cameron, that he needed 0:20:01.836 --> 0:20:04.556 to process it because I, in my opinion, he kind 0:20:04.596 --> 0:20:07.596 of put a lot of things, just checked it under 0:20:07.636 --> 0:20:10.676 the rug and just wanted to pretend it didn't ever happen. 0:20:10.996 --> 0:20:12.396 And I knew that. 0:20:12.556 --> 0:20:14.636 I just kept putting it in a file cabinet. It's like, 0:20:14.636 --> 0:20:16.636 you know what, let's just let's just look at this 0:20:16.716 --> 0:20:18.916 ten years from now. Let's laugh about this in ten years. 0:20:19.036 --> 0:20:19.196 Yeah. 0:20:19.236 --> 0:20:22.196 I mean, he did have an inkling that maybe someday, 0:20:22.436 --> 0:20:25.076 you know, he would be happy that he didn't throw 0:20:25.076 --> 0:20:27.676 away some of these papers, but I knew he needed 0:20:27.676 --> 0:20:31.556 to process all that that had happened to him. And 0:20:32.436 --> 0:20:36.036 once that happens with any trauma, once you are able 0:20:36.076 --> 0:20:39.876 to actually finally process it all, you can really then 0:20:40.116 --> 0:20:41.116 go on with your life. 0:20:41.876 --> 0:20:44.476 That's when Simon and I start to realize this stuff 0:20:44.556 --> 0:20:47.076 is still present for them. They've got this nice house 0:20:47.076 --> 0:20:49.876 on a hill and they're doing well, but the betrayal 0:20:49.916 --> 0:20:52.396 of your trust, that kind of thing takes longer to 0:20:52.436 --> 0:20:52.916 get past. 0:20:53.236 --> 0:20:55.196 Did this kind of change the way you'd look at 0:20:55.516 --> 0:20:58.596 kind of going into business or even going into relationships 0:20:58.676 --> 0:20:59.036 after that? 0:20:59.156 --> 0:20:59.236 Like? 0:20:59.316 --> 0:21:01.476 Do you did it negatively affect you like that? 0:21:01.676 --> 0:21:01.756 Or? 0:21:02.836 --> 0:21:03.516 Unfortunately? 0:21:03.996 --> 0:21:06.996 The bad part of that is, you know, it's it's 0:21:07.036 --> 0:21:11.236 like trust your employees, trust your people, but verify. And 0:21:12.316 --> 0:21:14.836 I definitely don't have as much trust for the people 0:21:14.916 --> 0:21:17.836 in my lives, and so therefore I definitely have to 0:21:17.916 --> 0:21:20.036 verify them a lot more. I mean, I think I 0:21:20.076 --> 0:21:22.436 appreciate the things that you have around you a lot 0:21:22.476 --> 0:21:26.436 more than I did before, because you know, I was fat, dumb, 0:21:26.476 --> 0:21:28.436 and happier or whatever, and just you know, I was 0:21:28.476 --> 0:21:30.636 I was doing well, and I was I was making 0:21:30.676 --> 0:21:33.316 my bills, and you know, after that it's kind. 0:21:33.156 --> 0:21:34.676 Of like, well, wait, what makes you happy? 0:21:35.036 --> 0:21:38.076 And I truly was not happy during that period of 0:21:38.076 --> 0:21:40.476 my life because there was the probably the highest stress 0:21:40.556 --> 0:21:42.236 level I've ever had in my life. 0:21:42.676 --> 0:21:45.956 So this whole experience did have a lasting effect. These 0:21:46.036 --> 0:21:48.236 that phrase it's bitter to have loved and lost than 0:21:48.276 --> 0:21:52.676 they've loved at all. With this relationship, Cameron definitely lost. 0:21:53.036 --> 0:21:56.476 But was the love you were with Leslie for a 0:21:56.476 --> 0:21:59.716 couple of years. Did your relationship get to that point 0:21:59.716 --> 0:22:01.276 where you think she loved you? 0:22:01.916 --> 0:22:02.836 No, not at all. 0:22:02.956 --> 0:22:03.196 I don't. 0:22:03.236 --> 0:22:04.716