WEBVTT - Judges Speak Out About Threat to Constitution 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:07.880 You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grosseo from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:14.360 Rhetoric against federal judges has reached unprecedented levels, with President 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:20.040 Trump calling judges incompetent, crooked, USA, hating and monsters. US 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:24.560 Attorney General Pam Bondi calling out individual judges who rule 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:29.320 against the administration by name, and the administration filing an 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:33.960 extraordinary lawsuit against all the federal district court judges in 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:37.640 the state of Maryland. Along with the rhetoric, threats against 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:42.560 judges are surging. The US Marshall Service has investigated close 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:46.440 to four hundred threats against federal judges in the first 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:49.440 five months of this year alone. A group of more 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:54.279 than forty retired federal judges appointed by both Republican and 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:59.160 Democratic presidents see this landscape as attempts to intimidate and 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:03.120 pressure judge just sway their opinions and shake the public's 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:07.160 trust in the courts. So on Constitution Day they released 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:11.360 an open letter warning that the Constitution and the judiciary 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:15.160 is under attack. My guests are two of those judges 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:20.360 from the Keep our Republic's Article three coalition. Judge Andre Davis, 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:23.200 formerly of the US Court of Appeals for the Fourth 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:27.200 Circuit and the District of Maryland, and Judge Paul Michelle, 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:30.720 formerly of the US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:33.440 thanks so much for joining me. Judge Davis, I'll start 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.280 with a question to you. Tell us why you and 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:40.120 the other retired judges decided to write this letter. 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:43.679 Sitting judges, as you know, are bound by the Coote 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:48.000 of Judicial Ethics, can speak only through their written opinions 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:51.480 and from oral opinions from the bench, and so they 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:56.360 are greatly limited, in fact prohibited really from responding to 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:01.440 some of the more outrageous and extreme attack on the judiciary, 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:06.200 on individual judges. And so what my friend Judge Michelle 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:12.000 and his colleague Bob Sindrich decided was that this election 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:17.040 or community if you will, of retired federal judges, at 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:21.639 this moment in our history, we're seeing the same thing, namely, 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:27.800 an unprecedented and very dangerous attack on the judiciary, on 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:30.880 the third branch of government in the United States, and 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.640 putting at risk not just the rule of law and 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.920 our democracy as we know it, but the actual lives 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:43.960 of judges and their family members. And so that's what 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.920 prompted us to take what I think is an unprecedented 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:53.160 step ourselves by coming together as a group of retired 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:59.160 judges appointed by presidents from both parties to speak with 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:05.000 one voice and call attention to the danger that is 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:10.680 not just implicit but unavoidable in the times of rhetoric 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:14.200 that are being used and the direct attacks on the 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:17.040 judiciary and the rule of law. And so we're speaking 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:20.720 with one voice to one educate the public and to 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:24.480 speak out in support of our colleagues who work day 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:27.560 in and day out to do the people's work in 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:28.960 dispensing justice. 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:33.520 Judge Michelle So. President Trump has verbally attacked judges who 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:37.160 ruled against him. He's call them radical left lunatics, crooked. 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:41.360 The US Attorney General Pam Bondi has called out judges 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:45.920 by name who ruled against Trump's policies, also calling them 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:51.040 similar names. What can you, as retired judges do to 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:55.160 stop this criticism and this attack that's coming from the 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:56.600 top of the executive branch. 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:01.480 Well, my hope is that if the the citizenry can 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:05.600 be better educated about the proper function and duties of judges, 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:09.200 they will see that the threat to judges is really 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.840 a threat against their own rights being protected by courts. 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:17.480 Courts have to be independent of political pressures, whether from 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:22.120 the White House or the Justice Department or elsewhere, and 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:26.839 that is what's under attack now. And we think that 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:33.000 we have unusual credibility because we're so nonpartisan, non political, 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:36.400 or you could almost say bipartisan, because we have about 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:40.720 half our judges appointed by Republican administrations and half by 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:46.839 democratic administrations, and we're enormously diverse personally, but as Judge 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:51.160 Davis rightly says, we're completely united and being horrified at 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:54.160 the status quo, feeling like this is a moment of 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:58.320 grave danger for our country, our democracy, and the rule 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:01.839 of law. When write down to it, at the end 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.599 of the day, either the written law is going to 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:08.560 control or what the executive wants is going to control. 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:10.960 Is it the rule of law or the rule of 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:15.160 a king. That's what really is at stake here. And 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:20.360 we think that the shrill attacks such as those who 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:25.040 cite and quote can be discouraged by the media and 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:29.960 the citizenry objecting loudly to that kind of language, whether 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:33.560 it's from Congress persons calling for impeachment of a judge 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.359 simply for doing his or her job and ruling on 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:39.719 a case or coming from the White House or the 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:44.160 Justice Department, and this is a moment of enormous danger 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:47.800 for our country. One of the problems is the citizens 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:51.200 have been very much misled. Too many of them are 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:56.680 not well versed in understandings of basic constitutional government procedures 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:59.599 and structures in our country. So, for example, the most 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:03.000 important certain things citizens need to realize is the job 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.760 of a judge is not to promote the agenda of 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:11.279 any president or any political party or any other political leader. 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:14.680 The job of the judge is strictly to apply the 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:18.479 written law, the precedents, and the statutes to the case 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:22.640 in front of him. And finally, I think the judiciary 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:26.000 is that it's most valuable and most important when it 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.480 serves as a check, just as the founder is expected 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:33.400 checks and balances is the phrase we often use. So 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:37.720 that if the executive does something that's unlawful, the judge 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.280 puts a hal to it, and the courts say that 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:45.440 can't continue, so they issue injunctions and the executive has 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.880 to stop doing the illegal things, and of course they 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.560 can continue with all the things that are lawful. So 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:53.440 that's really the bottom line here. 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:57.920 So the administration continually runs to the Supreme Court when 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:02.360 lower courts hand in its agenda, and on more than 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:06.640 a dozen occasions since the new administration came in, the 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:10.320 Supreme Court has lifted an injunction issued by a trial 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:13.160 judge who had said that the administration was at least 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:18.320 probably acting illegally. And sometimes the court offers a few sentences, 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:22.200 sometimes nothing. And I'm wondering if that gives the average 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:25.600 person a distorative view of what the lower courts are 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:29.640 doing in limiting the administration and what the Supreme Court 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:33.679 is doing in allowing the administration to move forward. 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:37.960 Well, you know, you've put your finger on something that's very, 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:43.800 very frankly disheartening about the current legal landscape. The point 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:48.280 is that every federal district judge, without exception, who has 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:54.600 ruled against some policy of this administration, was acting in 0:07:54.960 --> 0:08:01.080 absolute good faith in his and her attempt to not 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:07.640 just statutory law, not just constitutional law, but the Supreme 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:12.400 Court's own precedents. That's what the federal district judges around 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:16.840 the country have been doing for the last seven or 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:21.000 eight months. And in those instances, many of them, I 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:25.000 would even say most of those instances where the administration 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:31.160 has appealed those adverse decisions by federal district judges. In 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:38.199 most instances, the federal appellate courts, of which there are thirteen, 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:44.520 the federal appellate courts have largely left in place the 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:50.079 orders of the district judges. So what we see in 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:53.800 the so called shadow docket, I'm sure most of your 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.880 listeners are familiar with that term by now, is that 0:08:56.920 --> 0:09:03.199 the Supreme Court is reversing the decisions in large part 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:10.840 without explaining how or why those decisions are being reversed. 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:13.960 And so that leaves, you know, in the mind of 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:19.760 many lay people this very distorted vi somehow that the 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:24.599 lower federal courts, the district judges, who hear from the parties, 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:29.199 hear from the lawyers, consider the evidence, make a ruling 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:34.839 which is then left in place by the intermediate appellate court, 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:37.400 and the matter gets up to the Supreme Court, and 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:40.120 the Supreme Court in one or two sentences, as you say, 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:44.400 reverse that decision. Well, a lot of people you know, 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:48.240 on the street, not versed in the law, somehow are 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:53.360 persuaded that the lower court judges are somehow against the administration. 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:58.679 And as Judge Michelle just very poignantly pointed out all 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.640 the judges are doing is try their best to apply 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:05.520 the law, and so it this serves justice in all 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:10.000 honesty to leave in the minds of people that somehow 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:18.640 the Supreme Court is protecting this administration from lower court judges, 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:24.839 and that just feeds into this misinformation, this distorted view 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:29.360 that so many in high office continue to create, that 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:35.840 the judiciary is full of lunatics and activists, and nothing 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.560 could be further from the truth. So hopefully, in the 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:43.360 fullness of time, hopefully not too far in the future, 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:49.600 this landscape that's been created through the procedural and processes 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:52.440 that have been employed will see the light of day. 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:55.079 And one of the things that the Article three Coalition 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:59.520 is trying so desperately to do to continue to educate 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:03.520 people about the role of judges, the role of the judiciary, 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:07.440 how the judiciary works, the right to an appeal, and 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:11.679 how reason judgment is the coin of the realm when 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.600 it comes to j judiciary. 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:18.680 And Judge Michelle Justice Neil Gorsitz recently admonished lower court 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:22.760 judges not to so called defy the Supreme Court, and 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:27.679 Boston Federal Judge Allison Burroughs said that it was unhelpful 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:31.280 and unnecessary to criticize district courts that are working to 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:34.280 make sense of Supreme Court orders that are not models 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:38.040 of clarity and have left many issues unresolved. And another 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:41.320 judge said, I didn't understand that the orders on the 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.640 emergency docket were precedent. I mean, what about a Supreme 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:48.000 Court justice calling out district court judges. 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:53.040 Well. One complexity that the public doesn't understand, but it's 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:57.400 rather important, is that nearly all of the injunctions that 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.640 have been issued by the district judges around the country, 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:05.920 and these hundreds of suits challenging Trump administration actions, are 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:11.520 very preliminary. They're actually called preliminary injunctions, and that's because 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.400 there hasn't yet been a trial, there hasn't yet been 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:19.680 a final resolution of disputed facts. So these are truly 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:23.120 preliminary in the sense that the district judge is making 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:27.800 a prediction, a judgment that likely the challenger will win 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:33.600 over the administration's defense. But it's a speculative judgment. I'm 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:37.040 not defensive of the Supreme Court and the extent to 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:41.880 which they've intervened, but it is important to recognize that 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:44.840 they aren't saying the administration was right and the district 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:48.079 judge was wrong. What they're really saying is, we don't 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:51.320 know for sure yet, so we're going to delay a 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:56.480 remedy until there's been actual fact findings and what lawyers 0:12:56.520 --> 0:13:00.120 call a final judgment. But beyond that, it is it's 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:03.360 certainly true that some of these orders have no reasoning 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:07.000 coming down from the Supreme Court. Others are very terse 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:11.080 and sometimes unclear. I don't think it's helpful for Judge 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:14.320 Burrows and the Supreme Court justices to get in a 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:17.400 public shouting match in effect, although they of course he 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.400 did it in writing. But she has a point. The 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:26.480 district judges are striving to apply the law faithfully and impartially, 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:30.160 and I think usually they get it right, and particularly 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:33.040 where they're upheld as has been true in a number 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:36.000 of these cases by the Court of Appeals above them, 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:39.640 the Supreme Court ought to be very hesitant to jump 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:43.720 in and overrule both of the so called lower courts, 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.040 as the constitution that calls them the inferior courts, which 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:50.200 are very unfortunate phrase because they're not inferior. But in 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:54.160 terms of the admonition from judge courts, I don't know 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:57.319 what he's talking about. I don't see any judge, including 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:01.960 Judge William Young in Boston, has been defiant as refusing 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:05.280 to follow some clear direction from the Supreme Court, So 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.840 I'm not quite sure what he's referring to. But it's 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:13.400 not very helpful, and it's a further demoralization of the 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.440 district judges, who do ninety percent of the work in 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:20.800 the judicial system, and who should be respected and supported 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:24.040 by the public and by the rest of the judicial 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:28.560 establishment and not pilloried as if they're rebellious children or 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:29.880 something because they're not. 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.160 Coming up next. The effect of all those six to 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:38.239 three Supreme Court decisions on the emergency docket you're listening to, Bloomberg, 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:43.200 I've been talking to retired federal judges Andre Davis and 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:48.560 Paul Michelle about an unprecedented bipartisan statement from more than 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:53.720 forty retired federal judges appointed by six different presidents across 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:57.480 both parties, speaking out about how the constitution and the 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:01.960 judiciary is under attack. Judge Davis, I'm wondering about the 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:08.160 effect of so many, perhaps most, of these Supreme Court 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:13.600 emergency decisions coming down six to three down partisan lines, 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:19.240 especially in this environment where judges are more and more 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:24.240 being identified by the party of the president who appointed them, 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:27.080 even at the district court level. So you'll hear well 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.120 that judge is a Trump appointee, that judge is a 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:33.640 Biden appointee. It seems like people are talking about a 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.800 judge's political affiliations more than ever before. 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:43.000 I think that's a very regrettable development in our legal 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:49.920 ecosystem and in the media. The people apparently want to 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.960 know that information, and of course that information is available, 0:15:54.400 --> 0:16:00.920 one hopes, and frankly, I believe as a judge appointed 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:05.640 by two Democratic presidents, that is, presidents from the Democratic Party, 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.680 one would like to think that no one would ever imagine, 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:13.160 when I was an active judge that I made a 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:18.240 ruling on the basis of the party identification of the 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:24.359 president who appointed me. And frankly, it borders on offensive 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:29.200 to individual judges. I can share a very quick anecdote 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:32.640 when I was on the district court early in my tenure, 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.760 after having been appointed by President Clinton to the Federal 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:42.040 District Court in Baltimore, I struck down the city's affirmative 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:47.840 action plan as unconstitutional, and of course, while it was 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:52.120 still much rare, than now. I think the lead in 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:56.400 the newspaper was Clinton appointed judge strikes down an affirmative 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:58.840 action plan, and I think it might have said a 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:03.560 black Clinton appointed judge. Well, I was following the law, 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:08.000 and that's what judges do. No judge calls the president 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:12.680 who appointed him or her to check in on how 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:17.199 the case should come out. It's absurd, it's offensive, but 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:21.320 again you raise a good point. This is the system 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:24.399 we seem to be swimming in these days, and I 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:28.320 hope that one day soon that will fall out of favor. 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.760 Judge Michelle, So what can you do as retired judges? 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:33.160 What do you plan to do? 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:33.920 Well? 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:37.400 We can explain so that the public and the media 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:42.600 and community leaders, including the business community and other sectors 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:45.520 of our society, have a better understanding and are in 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:50.280 a position to fairly evaluate whether the complaints being made 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:54.240 by high officials in the White House are accurate or not, 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:59.000 and then to call out bad conduct by people who 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.280 are attacking judge just for doing your job. I couldn't 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:06.280 agree more with Judge Davis about how hard every one 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.879 of us tries the minute we take the oath to 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:15.320 put behind us our personal opinions, our prior political affiliations, 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:21.080 our party registration, our friendships, everything. Becoming a federal judge, 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:24.359 it's almost a little bit like becoming a minister or 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:27.000 a priest or a rabbi. You're a part of a 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:31.719 discipline based on written text, and you swear allegiance to 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:35.560 that text, and you have to discipline yourself to not 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:41.720 let other considerations enter into your decision making. And my impression, 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:45.320 and I've sat with five different circuit courts, is that 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:48.880 the judges do that very faithfully. I'd say ninety nine 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:52.440 percent of the time or more. The judges I sat 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:57.080 with were not acting at all from a political standpoint, 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.280 And I often couldn't even remember which party they were 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.680 appointed under because it just didn't show up in anything 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:07.240 that they said or wrote or how they voted. So 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.120 we've got a real problem in this country if the 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:15.600 public continues to have the view that Judge Davis is 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:19.040 a Democratic judge and Judge Michelle is a Republican judge, 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:23.040 because it's totally false, where judges of the law, not 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:27.280 of our political background, and people need to understand that. 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:30.199 And really it's the great strength in the system. It 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.960 means that every citizen can depend on his or her 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:39.320 rights being defended in court by impartial judges because they 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.800 can't be pressured by politicians to rule a certain way. 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:47.320 They're going to rule based on the settled law, the precedents, 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:50.720 as lawyers call them. And that's a great comfort not 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:54.840 only to every citizen in individual rights cases, but also 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:59.360 to every corporation. If the corporations can't depend on judges 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:02.600 to treat them under the law fairly, they're going to 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:06.400 stop taking risks, stop making investments, stop building factories if 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:08.800 they can't count on getting a fair shake from the 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:12.760 federal judges, if IRS comes after them, or the Securities 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:16.560 Exchange Commission or any other arm of the government. They 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.360 have to be confident that they're not on an enemy's 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:21.399 list in the White House, that they're going to be 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:26.120 treated like any other company or individual by our judges. 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:28.560 And the judges do a very good job, in my 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:33.680 opinion and from my experience, at being completely impartial, particularly 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:37.320 at every level of the court system, except the Supreme Court, 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:40.440 which does look more political to me than the other 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:42.480 two levels of the court system. 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:47.160 Judge Davis, just as Amy Coney Barrett, recently downplayed President 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:51.439 Trump's criticism of federal judges, saying that US presidents have 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:55.800 a long history of criticizing the judiciary. But we talked 0:20:55.840 --> 0:21:00.439 before about how this administration, even when so far to 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:04.840 sue the entire federal bench, all the district court judges 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:09.280 in Maryland, is this administration different in the way it 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:12.960 treats federal judges, and you know, even the way it 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:16.760 appoints federal judges more looking for more ideologues than for 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:19.760 you know, the what used to be considering you know, 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:21.320 the ABA approved judges. 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:27.040 This administration, from top to bottom, absolutely treats the federal 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:32.200 judiciary in ways that, frankfully, no administration before now has. 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.120 Ever treated the federal judiciary. 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:41.320 The appaminum attacks, the atuperative rhetoric, the name calling, the 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:47.720 takeover of the Justice Department, which, for primary memorial, one 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:52.600 of the pillars of our constitutional system, even though it's 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:54.919 not written into the constitution. You know, there are a 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:58.200 lot of norms that have come into play over these 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.240 two hundred and fifty years that are very important, one 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:05.840 of which is the independence not just of the judiciary, 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:10.080 but the independence of the Department of Justice from the 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:14.600 White House. These are structural strengths in our system and 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:20.000 so yes. The attack by this administration on the judiciary 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:26.440 as a whole, on individual judges, the name calling, the purposeful, wilful, 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:33.159 intentional undermining of the rule of law itself is very dangerous, 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:40.879 inimical to constitutional democracy, and I hope, I hope that 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:44.760 with our voices as the Article three Coalition, with the 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:50.240 voices of so many law firms and law organizations and 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:56.959 other civic minded organizations, I hope this will stop and 0:22:57.080 --> 0:23:01.080 will return to a time when each branch of government 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:05.160 showed the respect that was due it from all the others. 0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:09.360 To not just have one other thought. The vicious language 0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:12.400 that's been used against judges who've ruled in a way 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:16.359 the administration doesn't like has to be understood as to 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:19.560 its impact. It's not a question of the judge's feelings 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:22.399 are hurt. We don't care about feelings when we're judges. 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:26.080 We're not embarrassed to be criticized. We're criticized all the time. 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:28.439 It's part of the job. We know that, we understand that. 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:31.960 But the problem now is that when the president or 0:23:31.960 --> 0:23:35.959 the Attorney General makes these vituperative attacks and social media 0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:42.440 that thousands of deranged, fanatical, unstable individuals out there in 0:23:42.480 --> 0:23:46.800 the blogosphere may take it into their mind that they 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:49.200 have to save the country by going to get rid 0:23:49.200 --> 0:23:52.520 of Judge Michelle or Judge Davis because they've ruled in away. 0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:56.359 The President says, it's terrible. So now the attacks on 0:23:56.480 --> 0:24:00.840 judges are coming from from strangers. You can't even identify 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:03.399 who it might be. In the old days, it was 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:06.439 usually a losing litigant who was upset with the judge, 0:24:06.760 --> 0:24:09.639 So the Martial Service could better protect us because they 0:24:09.680 --> 0:24:12.480 could see who the source of the threat was coming from. 0:24:12.680 --> 0:24:14.960 Now they have no way of knowing or predicting. It 0:24:14.960 --> 0:24:17.639 makes it much harder for the very able Marshal Service 0:24:17.720 --> 0:24:22.080 to effectively protect judges. So this is a grave threat 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:26.760 to the functioning of our democracy because if judges are terrified, 0:24:26.840 --> 0:24:30.040 no matter how brave they are, there's a danger that 0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:34.840 subconsciously it could influence their rulings and make them, so 0:24:34.960 --> 0:24:39.200 to speak, pull punches for fear of being the target 0:24:39.359 --> 0:24:42.440 of some deranged person who would try to kill them 0:24:42.640 --> 0:24:47.080 or harass their family or whatever. So it's not a 0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:50.800 question of hurt feelings from sharp criticism. It's a question 0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:53.600 of actual incitement to violence. 0:24:53.600 --> 0:24:58.080 And the Marshal Service is fielding more online threats to 0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:01.720 judges than ever before. Four. Thank you both so much 0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:05.560 for joining me today. That's Judge Paul Michelle, formerly of 0:25:05.600 --> 0:25:09.480 the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals and Judge Andre Davis, 0:25:09.800 --> 0:25:13.359 formerly of the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. They're both 0:25:13.440 --> 0:25:16.879 part of the Keep Our Republic's Article three coalition. 0:25:17.520 --> 0:25:21.480 State of Utah versus Tyler James Robinson. Could you state 0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:21.880 your name? 0:25:23.359 --> 0:25:24.760 Tyler James Robinson. 0:25:25.000 --> 0:25:28.280 Twenty two year old Tyler Robinson appeared in court for 0:25:28.320 --> 0:25:32.920 the first time on Tuesday, facing aggravated murder charges as 0:25:33.000 --> 0:25:36.719 prosecutors seek the death penalty against him for the fatal 0:25:36.760 --> 0:25:41.720 shooting of conservative activists Charlie Kirk. Utah County Attorney Jeff 0:25:41.760 --> 0:25:46.240 Gray explained the aggravating factors in his decision to pursue 0:25:46.240 --> 0:25:47.160 the death penalty. 0:25:47.640 --> 0:25:52.200 The state is further alleging aggravating factors on counts one 0:25:52.200 --> 0:25:56.879 and two because the defendant is believed to have targeted 0:25:56.960 --> 0:26:02.400 Charlie Kirk based on Charlie Kirk's political expression and did 0:26:02.440 --> 0:26:06.639 so knowing that children were present and would witness the homicide. 0:26:06.920 --> 0:26:10.719 Robinson is charged with seven counts in all, joining me 0:26:10.760 --> 0:26:14.639 is Bloomberg Legal reporter Madlen Mackelberg Madline tell us about 0:26:14.640 --> 0:26:16.959 this first appearance by Robinson. 0:26:17.760 --> 0:26:18.200 K Tyler. 0:26:18.520 --> 0:26:21.440 Robinson came before a judge for the first time this week, 0:26:21.520 --> 0:26:24.720 and it was a virtual appearance in a courtroom, which 0:26:24.760 --> 0:26:28.640 is pretty standard apparently for criminal cases in Utah County 0:26:28.680 --> 0:26:32.560 where he was charged. And he appeared via zoom from 0:26:32.640 --> 0:26:35.400 the jail and the judge who will be presiding over 0:26:35.440 --> 0:26:39.440 the criminal case moving forward, read the charges allowed to him, 0:26:40.040 --> 0:26:42.399 informed him that there was a possible sentence of the 0:26:42.440 --> 0:26:46.280 death penalty associated with those charges, and he asked him 0:26:46.320 --> 0:26:48.520 if he had an attorney yet, and he does not 0:26:48.640 --> 0:26:51.280 have a lawyer for him yet. The judge said, based 0:26:51.280 --> 0:26:54.520 on his financial status, one will be appointed for him, 0:26:54.680 --> 0:26:57.040 and that's something that we can expect to happen in 0:26:57.080 --> 0:26:58.120 the next few weeks here. 0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:00.800 And from what I understand, it has to be an 0:27:00.840 --> 0:27:05.280 attorney that's rule a qualified, meaning an attorney who's qualified 0:27:05.280 --> 0:27:09.840 to deal with capital cases, so that limits the attorneys available. 0:27:10.160 --> 0:27:11.439 Did Robinson enter. 0:27:11.320 --> 0:27:13.920 A plea, No, We're not going to see him enter 0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:16.640