1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grosseo from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 2: Rhetoric against federal judges has reached unprecedented levels, with President 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 2: Trump calling judges incompetent, crooked, USA, hating and monsters. US 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 2: Attorney General Pam Bondi calling out individual judges who rule 5 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 2: against the administration by name, and the administration filing an 6 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 2: extraordinary lawsuit against all the federal district court judges in 7 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 2: the state of Maryland. Along with the rhetoric, threats against 8 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 2: judges are surging. The US Marshall Service has investigated close 9 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 2: to four hundred threats against federal judges in the first 10 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 2: five months of this year alone. A group of more 11 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:54,279 Speaker 2: than forty retired federal judges appointed by both Republican and 12 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 2: Democratic presidents see this landscape as attempts to intimidate and 13 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 2: pressure judge just sway their opinions and shake the public's 14 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: trust in the courts. So on Constitution Day they released 15 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 2: an open letter warning that the Constitution and the judiciary 16 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 2: is under attack. My guests are two of those judges 17 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 2: from the Keep our Republic's Article three coalition. Judge Andre Davis, 18 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 2: formerly of the US Court of Appeals for the Fourth 19 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 2: Circuit and the District of Maryland, and Judge Paul Michelle, 20 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 2: formerly of the US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, 21 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 2: thanks so much for joining me. Judge Davis, I'll start 22 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 2: with a question to you. Tell us why you and 23 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 2: the other retired judges decided to write this letter. 24 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 3: Sitting judges, as you know, are bound by the Coote 25 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 3: of Judicial Ethics, can speak only through their written opinions 26 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 3: and from oral opinions from the bench, and so they 27 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 3: are greatly limited, in fact prohibited really from responding to 28 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 3: some of the more outrageous and extreme attack on the judiciary, 29 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 3: on individual judges. And so what my friend Judge Michelle 30 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 3: and his colleague Bob Sindrich decided was that this election 31 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 3: or community if you will, of retired federal judges, at 32 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 3: this moment in our history, we're seeing the same thing, namely, 33 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 3: an unprecedented and very dangerous attack on the judiciary, on 34 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 3: the third branch of government in the United States, and 35 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 3: putting at risk not just the rule of law and 36 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 3: our democracy as we know it, but the actual lives 37 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 3: of judges and their family members. And so that's what 38 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 3: prompted us to take what I think is an unprecedented 39 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 3: step ourselves by coming together as a group of retired 40 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 3: judges appointed by presidents from both parties to speak with 41 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 3: one voice and call attention to the danger that is 42 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 3: not just implicit but unavoidable in the times of rhetoric 43 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 3: that are being used and the direct attacks on the 44 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 3: judiciary and the rule of law. And so we're speaking 45 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 3: with one voice to one educate the public and to 46 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 3: speak out in support of our colleagues who work day 47 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 3: in and day out to do the people's work in 48 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 3: dispensing justice. 49 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 2: Judge Michelle So. President Trump has verbally attacked judges who 50 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: ruled against him. He's call them radical left lunatics, crooked. 51 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 2: The US Attorney General Pam Bondi has called out judges 52 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: by name who ruled against Trump's policies, also calling them 53 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 2: similar names. What can you, as retired judges do to 54 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 2: stop this criticism and this attack that's coming from the 55 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 2: top of the executive branch. 56 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: Well, my hope is that if the the citizenry can 57 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: be better educated about the proper function and duties of judges, 58 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: they will see that the threat to judges is really 59 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: a threat against their own rights being protected by courts. 60 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: Courts have to be independent of political pressures, whether from 61 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: the White House or the Justice Department or elsewhere, and 62 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: that is what's under attack now. And we think that 63 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: we have unusual credibility because we're so nonpartisan, non political, 64 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: or you could almost say bipartisan, because we have about 65 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 1: half our judges appointed by Republican administrations and half by 66 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 1: democratic administrations, and we're enormously diverse personally, but as Judge 67 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 1: Davis rightly says, we're completely united and being horrified at 68 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: the status quo, feeling like this is a moment of 69 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: grave danger for our country, our democracy, and the rule 70 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: of law. When write down to it, at the end 71 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: of the day, either the written law is going to 72 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: control or what the executive wants is going to control. 73 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: Is it the rule of law or the rule of 74 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: a king. That's what really is at stake here. And 75 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: we think that the shrill attacks such as those who 76 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: cite and quote can be discouraged by the media and 77 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: the citizenry objecting loudly to that kind of language, whether 78 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: it's from Congress persons calling for impeachment of a judge 79 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: simply for doing his or her job and ruling on 80 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 1: a case or coming from the White House or the 81 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: Justice Department, and this is a moment of enormous danger 82 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: for our country. One of the problems is the citizens 83 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: have been very much misled. Too many of them are 84 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: not well versed in understandings of basic constitutional government procedures 85 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: and structures in our country. So, for example, the most 86 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: important certain things citizens need to realize is the job 87 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: of a judge is not to promote the agenda of 88 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: any president or any political party or any other political leader. 89 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: The job of the judge is strictly to apply the 90 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: written law, the precedents, and the statutes to the case 91 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: in front of him. And finally, I think the judiciary 92 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: is that it's most valuable and most important when it 93 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: serves as a check, just as the founder is expected 94 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: checks and balances is the phrase we often use. So 95 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: that if the executive does something that's unlawful, the judge 96 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: puts a hal to it, and the courts say that 97 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: can't continue, so they issue injunctions and the executive has 98 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: to stop doing the illegal things, and of course they 99 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: can continue with all the things that are lawful. So 100 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: that's really the bottom line here. 101 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 2: So the administration continually runs to the Supreme Court when 102 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 2: lower courts hand in its agenda, and on more than 103 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 2: a dozen occasions since the new administration came in, the 104 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 2: Supreme Court has lifted an injunction issued by a trial 105 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: judge who had said that the administration was at least 106 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 2: probably acting illegally. And sometimes the court offers a few sentences, 107 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: sometimes nothing. And I'm wondering if that gives the average 108 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: person a distorative view of what the lower courts are 109 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: doing in limiting the administration and what the Supreme Court 110 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,679 Speaker 2: is doing in allowing the administration to move forward. 111 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 3: Well, you know, you've put your finger on something that's very, 112 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 3: very frankly disheartening about the current legal landscape. The point 113 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 3: is that every federal district judge, without exception, who has 114 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 3: ruled against some policy of this administration, was acting in 115 00:07:54,960 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 3: absolute good faith in his and her attempt to not 116 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 3: just statutory law, not just constitutional law, but the Supreme 117 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 3: Court's own precedents. That's what the federal district judges around 118 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 3: the country have been doing for the last seven or 119 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 3: eight months. And in those instances, many of them, I 120 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 3: would even say most of those instances where the administration 121 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 3: has appealed those adverse decisions by federal district judges. In 122 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 3: most instances, the federal appellate courts, of which there are thirteen, 123 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 3: the federal appellate courts have largely left in place the 124 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 3: orders of the district judges. So what we see in 125 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 3: the so called shadow docket, I'm sure most of your 126 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 3: listeners are familiar with that term by now, is that 127 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:03,199 Speaker 3: the Supreme Court is reversing the decisions in large part 128 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 3: without explaining how or why those decisions are being reversed. 129 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 3: And so that leaves, you know, in the mind of 130 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 3: many lay people this very distorted vi somehow that the 131 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:24,599 Speaker 3: lower federal courts, the district judges, who hear from the parties, 132 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 3: hear from the lawyers, consider the evidence, make a ruling 133 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 3: which is then left in place by the intermediate appellate court, 134 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 3: and the matter gets up to the Supreme Court, and 135 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 3: the Supreme Court in one or two sentences, as you say, 136 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 3: reverse that decision. Well, a lot of people you know, 137 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 3: on the street, not versed in the law, somehow are 138 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 3: persuaded that the lower court judges are somehow against the administration. 139 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 3: And as Judge Michelle just very poignantly pointed out all 140 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 3: the judges are doing is try their best to apply 141 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 3: the law, and so it this serves justice in all 142 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 3: honesty to leave in the minds of people that somehow 143 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 3: the Supreme Court is protecting this administration from lower court judges, 144 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 3: and that just feeds into this misinformation, this distorted view 145 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 3: that so many in high office continue to create, that 146 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 3: the judiciary is full of lunatics and activists, and nothing 147 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 3: could be further from the truth. So hopefully, in the 148 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 3: fullness of time, hopefully not too far in the future, 149 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 3: this landscape that's been created through the procedural and processes 150 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 3: that have been employed will see the light of day. 151 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 3: And one of the things that the Article three Coalition 152 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 3: is trying so desperately to do to continue to educate 153 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 3: people about the role of judges, the role of the judiciary, 154 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 3: how the judiciary works, the right to an appeal, and 155 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 3: how reason judgment is the coin of the realm when 156 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 3: it comes to j judiciary. 157 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 2: And Judge Michelle Justice Neil Gorsitz recently admonished lower court 158 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: judges not to so called defy the Supreme Court, and 159 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 2: Boston Federal Judge Allison Burroughs said that it was unhelpful 160 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 2: and unnecessary to criticize district courts that are working to 161 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 2: make sense of Supreme Court orders that are not models 162 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 2: of clarity and have left many issues unresolved. And another 163 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 2: judge said, I didn't understand that the orders on the 164 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: emergency docket were precedent. I mean, what about a Supreme 165 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 2: Court justice calling out district court judges. 166 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: Well. One complexity that the public doesn't understand, but it's 167 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: rather important, is that nearly all of the injunctions that 168 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: have been issued by the district judges around the country, 169 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: and these hundreds of suits challenging Trump administration actions, are 170 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: very preliminary. They're actually called preliminary injunctions, and that's because 171 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: there hasn't yet been a trial, there hasn't yet been 172 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: a final resolution of disputed facts. So these are truly 173 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: preliminary in the sense that the district judge is making 174 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: a prediction, a judgment that likely the challenger will win 175 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: over the administration's defense. But it's a speculative judgment. I'm 176 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: not defensive of the Supreme Court and the extent to 177 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: which they've intervened, but it is important to recognize that 178 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: they aren't saying the administration was right and the district 179 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 1: judge was wrong. What they're really saying is, we don't 180 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: know for sure yet, so we're going to delay a 181 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: remedy until there's been actual fact findings and what lawyers 182 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: call a final judgment. But beyond that, it is it's 183 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: certainly true that some of these orders have no reasoning 184 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: coming down from the Supreme Court. Others are very terse 185 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: and sometimes unclear. I don't think it's helpful for Judge 186 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: Burrows and the Supreme Court justices to get in a 187 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: public shouting match in effect, although they of course he 188 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: did it in writing. But she has a point. The 189 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: district judges are striving to apply the law faithfully and impartially, 190 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: and I think usually they get it right, and particularly 191 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: where they're upheld as has been true in a number 192 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: of these cases by the Court of Appeals above them, 193 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court ought to be very hesitant to jump 194 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: in and overrule both of the so called lower courts, 195 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: as the constitution that calls them the inferior courts, which 196 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: are very unfortunate phrase because they're not inferior. But in 197 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: terms of the admonition from judge courts, I don't know 198 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: what he's talking about. I don't see any judge, including 199 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: Judge William Young in Boston, has been defiant as refusing 200 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: to follow some clear direction from the Supreme Court, So 201 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure what he's referring to. But it's 202 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: not very helpful, and it's a further demoralization of the 203 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: district judges, who do ninety percent of the work in 204 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: the judicial system, and who should be respected and supported 205 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: by the public and by the rest of the judicial 206 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: establishment and not pilloried as if they're rebellious children or 207 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: something because they're not. 208 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 2: Coming up next. The effect of all those six to 209 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:38,239 Speaker 2: three Supreme Court decisions on the emergency docket you're listening to, Bloomberg, 210 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: I've been talking to retired federal judges Andre Davis and 211 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 2: Paul Michelle about an unprecedented bipartisan statement from more than 212 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: forty retired federal judges appointed by six different presidents across 213 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 2: both parties, speaking out about how the constitution and the 214 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 2: judiciary is under attack. Judge Davis, I'm wondering about the 215 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 2: effect of so many, perhaps most, of these Supreme Court 216 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: emergency decisions coming down six to three down partisan lines, 217 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 2: especially in this environment where judges are more and more 218 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: being identified by the party of the president who appointed them, 219 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 2: even at the district court level. So you'll hear well 220 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 2: that judge is a Trump appointee, that judge is a 221 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 2: Biden appointee. It seems like people are talking about a 222 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 2: judge's political affiliations more than ever before. 223 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 3: I think that's a very regrettable development in our legal 224 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 3: ecosystem and in the media. The people apparently want to 225 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 3: know that information, and of course that information is available, 226 00:15:54,400 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 3: one hopes, and frankly, I believe as a judge appointed 227 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 3: by two Democratic presidents, that is, presidents from the Democratic Party, 228 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 3: one would like to think that no one would ever imagine, 229 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 3: when I was an active judge that I made a 230 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 3: ruling on the basis of the party identification of the 231 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:24,359 Speaker 3: president who appointed me. And frankly, it borders on offensive 232 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 3: to individual judges. I can share a very quick anecdote 233 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 3: when I was on the district court early in my tenure, 234 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 3: after having been appointed by President Clinton to the Federal 235 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 3: District Court in Baltimore, I struck down the city's affirmative 236 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 3: action plan as unconstitutional, and of course, while it was 237 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 3: still much rare, than now. I think the lead in 238 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 3: the newspaper was Clinton appointed judge strikes down an affirmative 239 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 3: action plan, and I think it might have said a 240 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 3: black Clinton appointed judge. Well, I was following the law, 241 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 3: and that's what judges do. No judge calls the president 242 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 3: who appointed him or her to check in on how 243 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 3: the case should come out. It's absurd, it's offensive, but 244 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 3: again you raise a good point. This is the system 245 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 3: we seem to be swimming in these days, and I 246 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 3: hope that one day soon that will fall out of favor. 247 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 2: Judge Michelle, So what can you do as retired judges? 248 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 2: What do you plan to do? 249 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 3: Well? 250 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: We can explain so that the public and the media 251 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: and community leaders, including the business community and other sectors 252 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: of our society, have a better understanding and are in 253 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: a position to fairly evaluate whether the complaints being made 254 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: by high officials in the White House are accurate or not, 255 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: and then to call out bad conduct by people who 256 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: are attacking judge just for doing your job. I couldn't 257 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: agree more with Judge Davis about how hard every one 258 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: of us tries the minute we take the oath to 259 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: put behind us our personal opinions, our prior political affiliations, 260 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: our party registration, our friendships, everything. Becoming a federal judge, 261 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: it's almost a little bit like becoming a minister or 262 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: a priest or a rabbi. You're a part of a 263 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:31,719 Speaker 1: discipline based on written text, and you swear allegiance to 264 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: that text, and you have to discipline yourself to not 265 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: let other considerations enter into your decision making. And my impression, 266 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: and I've sat with five different circuit courts, is that 267 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 1: the judges do that very faithfully. I'd say ninety nine 268 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 1: percent of the time or more. The judges I sat 269 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: with were not acting at all from a political standpoint, 270 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: And I often couldn't even remember which party they were 271 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: appointed under because it just didn't show up in anything 272 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: that they said or wrote or how they voted. So 273 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 1: we've got a real problem in this country if the 274 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: public continues to have the view that Judge Davis is 275 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: a Democratic judge and Judge Michelle is a Republican judge, 276 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: because it's totally false, where judges of the law, not 277 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: of our political background, and people need to understand that. 278 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: And really it's the great strength in the system. It 279 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: means that every citizen can depend on his or her 280 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: rights being defended in court by impartial judges because they 281 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: can't be pressured by politicians to rule a certain way. 282 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: They're going to rule based on the settled law, the precedents, 283 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: as lawyers call them. And that's a great comfort not 284 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: only to every citizen in individual rights cases, but also 285 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 1: to every corporation. If the corporations can't depend on judges 286 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: to treat them under the law fairly, they're going to 287 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: stop taking risks, stop making investments, stop building factories if 288 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: they can't count on getting a fair shake from the 289 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: federal judges, if IRS comes after them, or the Securities 290 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: Exchange Commission or any other arm of the government. They 291 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 1: have to be confident that they're not on an enemy's 292 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: list in the White House, that they're going to be 293 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: treated like any other company or individual by our judges. 294 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: And the judges do a very good job, in my 295 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: opinion and from my experience, at being completely impartial, particularly 296 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: at every level of the court system, except the Supreme Court, 297 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: which does look more political to me than the other 298 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: two levels of the court system. 299 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 2: Judge Davis, just as Amy Coney Barrett, recently downplayed President 300 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 2: Trump's criticism of federal judges, saying that US presidents have 301 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 2: a long history of criticizing the judiciary. But we talked 302 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 2: before about how this administration, even when so far to 303 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 2: sue the entire federal bench, all the district court judges 304 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 2: in Maryland, is this administration different in the way it 305 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 2: treats federal judges, and you know, even the way it 306 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 2: appoints federal judges more looking for more ideologues than for 307 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 2: you know, the what used to be considering you know, 308 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 2: the ABA approved judges. 309 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 3: This administration, from top to bottom, absolutely treats the federal 310 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 3: judiciary in ways that, frankfully, no administration before now has. 311 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,120 Speaker 1: Ever treated the federal judiciary. 312 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 3: The appaminum attacks, the atuperative rhetoric, the name calling, the 313 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 3: takeover of the Justice Department, which, for primary memorial, one 314 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 3: of the pillars of our constitutional system, even though it's 315 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 3: not written into the constitution. You know, there are a 316 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 3: lot of norms that have come into play over these 317 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty years that are very important, one 318 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 3: of which is the independence not just of the judiciary, 319 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 3: but the independence of the Department of Justice from the 320 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 3: White House. These are structural strengths in our system and 321 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 3: so yes. The attack by this administration on the judiciary 322 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 3: as a whole, on individual judges, the name calling, the purposeful, wilful, 323 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 3: intentional undermining of the rule of law itself is very dangerous, 324 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 3: inimical to constitutional democracy, and I hope, I hope that 325 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 3: with our voices as the Article three Coalition, with the 326 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 3: voices of so many law firms and law organizations and 327 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:56,959 Speaker 3: other civic minded organizations, I hope this will stop and 328 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 3: will return to a time when each branch of government 329 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 3: showed the respect that was due it from all the others. 330 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 1: To not just have one other thought. The vicious language 331 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 1: that's been used against judges who've ruled in a way 332 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: the administration doesn't like has to be understood as to 333 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: its impact. It's not a question of the judge's feelings 334 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: are hurt. We don't care about feelings when we're judges. 335 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: We're not embarrassed to be criticized. We're criticized all the time. 336 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: It's part of the job. We know that, we understand that. 337 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: But the problem now is that when the president or 338 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,959 Speaker 1: the Attorney General makes these vituperative attacks and social media 339 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: that thousands of deranged, fanatical, unstable individuals out there in 340 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: the blogosphere may take it into their mind that they 341 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: have to save the country by going to get rid 342 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: of Judge Michelle or Judge Davis because they've ruled in away. 343 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: The President says, it's terrible. So now the attacks on 344 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: judges are coming from from strangers. You can't even identify 345 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: who it might be. In the old days, it was 346 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 1: usually a losing litigant who was upset with the judge, 347 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: So the Martial Service could better protect us because they 348 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: could see who the source of the threat was coming from. 349 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: Now they have no way of knowing or predicting. It 350 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: makes it much harder for the very able Marshal Service 351 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: to effectively protect judges. So this is a grave threat 352 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: to the functioning of our democracy because if judges are terrified, 353 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: no matter how brave they are, there's a danger that 354 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: subconsciously it could influence their rulings and make them, so 355 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: to speak, pull punches for fear of being the target 356 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: of some deranged person who would try to kill them 357 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: or harass their family or whatever. So it's not a 358 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: question of hurt feelings from sharp criticism. It's a question 359 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: of actual incitement to violence. 360 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 2: And the Marshal Service is fielding more online threats to 361 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 2: judges than ever before. Four. Thank you both so much 362 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 2: for joining me today. That's Judge Paul Michelle, formerly of 363 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 2: the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals and Judge Andre Davis, 364 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 2: formerly of the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. They're both 365 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 2: part of the Keep Our Republic's Article three coalition. 366 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: State of Utah versus Tyler James Robinson. Could you state 367 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 1: your name? 368 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 4: Tyler James Robinson. 369 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 2: Twenty two year old Tyler Robinson appeared in court for 370 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 2: the first time on Tuesday, facing aggravated murder charges as 371 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,719 Speaker 2: prosecutors seek the death penalty against him for the fatal 372 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 2: shooting of conservative activists Charlie Kirk. Utah County Attorney Jeff 373 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 2: Gray explained the aggravating factors in his decision to pursue 374 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 2: the death penalty. 375 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 4: The state is further alleging aggravating factors on counts one 376 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 4: and two because the defendant is believed to have targeted 377 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk based on Charlie Kirk's political expression and did 378 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 4: so knowing that children were present and would witness the homicide. 379 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,719 Speaker 2: Robinson is charged with seven counts in all, joining me 380 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 2: is Bloomberg Legal reporter Madlen Mackelberg Madline tell us about 381 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,959 Speaker 2: this first appearance by Robinson. 382 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: K Tyler. 383 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 5: Robinson came before a judge for the first time this week, 384 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 5: and it was a virtual appearance in a courtroom, which 385 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 5: is pretty standard apparently for criminal cases in Utah County 386 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 5: where he was charged. And he appeared via zoom from 387 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 5: the jail and the judge who will be presiding over 388 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 5: the criminal case moving forward, read the charges allowed to him, 389 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 5: informed him that there was a possible sentence of the 390 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 5: death penalty associated with those charges, and he asked him 391 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 5: if he had an attorney yet, and he does not 392 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 5: have a lawyer for him yet. The judge said, based 393 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 5: on his financial status, one will be appointed for him, 394 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 5: and that's something that we can expect to happen in 395 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 5: the next few weeks here. 396 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 2: And from what I understand, it has to be an 397 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 2: attorney that's rule a qualified, meaning an attorney who's qualified 398 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 2: to deal with capital cases, so that limits the attorneys available. 399 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 2: Did Robinson enter. 400 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 5: A plea, No, We're not going to see him enter 401 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 5: a plea for at least a few weeks, the way 402 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 5: that things work in Utah. The next hearing is also 403 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 5: going to be virtual, meaning that Robinson will be zooming 404 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 5: in from the courthouse and they'll be discussing whether or 405 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 5: not he wants to waive his right to a preliminary hearing. 406 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 5: This is a hearing where they would talk about whether 407 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 5: there's enough validity to the charges to move forward to 408 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 5: an arraignment, which would be yet another hearing where he 409 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 5: would actually enter a plea to the charges before him. 410 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 5: So we along road to go before we get there, 411 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 5: and from. 412 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 2: What authorities have said, he has not made a confession 413 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 2: and he's not talking to investigators. 414 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 5: So Utah County Attorney Jeff Gray has been the public 415 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 5: faith of the prosecution so far, and he's really declined 416 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 5: to weigh in on exactly how much Robinson may or 417 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 5: may not be cooperating with investigators. But we heard previously 418 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 5: from law enforcement authorities that he has not been cooperative 419 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 5: with them. There's no evidence so far that he's given 420 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 5: them any kind of confession or admitted to anything. Although 421 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 5: I'm sure you saw prosecutors released a ton of evidence 422 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 5: that they say they have against him, which include text 423 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 5: messages where he's talking about the shooting, but they decline 424 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 5: to say whether they can strue those as being a confession, 425 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 5: and at this point we have no reason to believe 426 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 5: that he's confessed to authorities or that he's even cooperating 427 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 5: with them. 428 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 2: Well, let's talk a little bit about those text messages 429 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 2: to his roommate and why prosecutors are highlighting them. 430 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 5: So, while he may not be cooperating with them, it's 431 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 5: very clear that his family and people close to him are, 432 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 5: or at least have been providing law enforcement with information 433 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 5: regarding their communications with him leading up to the shooting 434 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 5: and following the shooting. Now, prosecutors say that he was 435 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 5: in a romantic relationship with his roommate and that when 436 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 5: he was on campus allegedly committing this act, he sent 437 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 5: a message to his roommate telling them to look under 438 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 5: his keyboard on his computer, and when the roommate checked 439 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 5: under the keyboard, there was a note there that said, quote, 440 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 5: I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk, and 441 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 5: I'm going to take it. And what followed is a 442 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 5: series of messages that are allegedly between the roommate and Robinson. 443 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 5: You know, the roommate is expressing confusion shock, saying you're 444 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 5: joking right, and Robinson apparently said to them, I'm not joking. 445 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 5: The roommate says, you weren't the one who did this, right, 446 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 5: Robinson says, I am, I'm sorry. They go back and 447 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 5: forth in this exchange, and Robinson apparently is talking about 448 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 5: how he attempted to hide his rifle, how police arrested 449 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 5: somebody at the shooting who was not him. I'm sure 450 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 5: you remember those hours afterwards when police kept saying they 451 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 5: had someone in custody, but they were not the suspect 452 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 5: in this case. So I think the messages are significant 453 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 5: because it clearly shows that Robinson was talking about doing 454 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 5: this and explaining some of his thought process behind it, 455 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 5: which is that he said, quote, I had enough of 456 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 5: his hatred talking about Kirk. 457 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 2: Prosecutors didn't out and out state a motive, did they. 458 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 2: I mean, I know that Gray had said Robinson was 459 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 2: becoming more pro gae and trans rights oriented, but did 460 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 2: they explicitly say here's the motive. 461 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 5: No, So they talked about the political elements of the 462 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 5: situation here, but they have said that they're not talking 463 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 5: about a motive at this point. They're only talking about 464 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 5: the evidence that they have, which seems to include statements 465 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 5: from Robinson's mother, who's the one who told investigators that 466 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 5: in recent years her son had become more politically engaged 467 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 5: with some of these left leaning causes and more pro 468 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 5: gae and trans writes focused. That's something that was in 469 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 5: the charging documents that came forward, and that seems to 470 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 5: be significant because his family said that they identify as 471 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 5: being more conservative voters. 472 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 2: His parents turned him in, right, So, when. 473 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 5: They discovered and identified in the images that law enforcement 474 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 5: released that the shooter resembled their son, apparently, they had 475 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 5: some phone call conversations with him, had him come back 476 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 5: to the house, and they spoke with a family friend 477 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 5: who is a retired law enforcement official, and together they 478 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 5: encouraged him to turn himself into local authorities where he's from, 479 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 5: which is about four hours away from where the university 480 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 5: is where Kirk was speaking when he was shot. 481 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 2: And prosecutors have some physical evidence DNA evidence. 482 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 5: Right, So, prosecutors say that they have DNA from the 483 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 5: trigger of the rifle that they believe was used in 484 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 5: the shooting and the towel that the rifle was found 485 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 5: wrapped in when they recovered it from the scene. They 486 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 5: say the DNA they collected their matches Robinson. 487 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 2: And what about his conversations on Discord. The FBI director 488 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 2: said that they're investigating the people who were involved in 489 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 2: those conversations. 490 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 5: Apparently Robinson was having conversations on Discord, which is a 491 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 5: popular chat application that's used for people who play in 492 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 5: stream video games. This is my understanding of it, but 493 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 5: apparently he was having a conversation with a group of 494 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 5: friends and making jokes about the shooting and connecting himself 495 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 5: to it without admitting anything. And those conversations have been 496 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 5: discussed by, as you say, the FBI director and some 497 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 5: officials publicly, but they're not actually mentioned in the charging 498 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 5: documents that we saw filed from prosecutors. So we have 499 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 5: to assume that'll be part of the evidence that they 500 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 5: present against him at some point, but it hasn't been 501 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 5: part of this initial charging. 502 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 2: Authorities consider him a sole actor here or are they 503 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 2: looking for accomplices. 504 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 5: So at this point, prosecutors and law enforcements say that 505 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 5: they are continuing investigating, they're leaving no stone unturned, but 506 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 5: they've declined to answer questions of whether they believe he 507 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,479 Speaker 5: acted alone or this was a coordinated attempt. And so 508 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 5: at this point nobody else has been named as a suspect, 509 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 5: or even as somebody who has contributed to this in 510 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 5: a different way, and so the investigation continues. It's possible 511 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 5: that we see future charges against another individual, but at 512 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 5: this point there's no evidence to suggest that they have 513 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 5: somebody else in mind. 514 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 2: Before Robinson was even arrested, Utah's governor said they would 515 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 2: pursue the death penalty, but what did the prosecutors say? 516 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 2: He decided to seek the death penalty. 517 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 5: So there's been a lot of talk about this. The 518 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 5: Utah governor came out and said that he was planning 519 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 5: to pursue it. President Trump has said you need to 520 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 5: pursue the death penalty, and when we heard from the 521 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 5: county attorney this week, he said he made this decision 522 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 5: independent of any outside influence and that while he spoke 523 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 5: with both the governor and the president at least representatives 524 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 5: for their respective administrations, he said he didn't receive pressure 525 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 5: from them to make that decision and they didn't raise 526 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 5: it with him. So he's wanting to be clear that 527 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 5: this is something he's pursuing based on the evidence that 528 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 5: he has, and part of that is this idea that 529 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,399 Speaker 5: when the shooting occurred, there were children present, and there 530 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 5: was also a risk of injury to other people that 531 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 5: were there. So it wasn't a straightforward murder situation where 532 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 5: it was just between two individuals. He was firing a 533 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 5: shot across a crowd of people and there was a 534 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 5: risk of injury to others who were there. 535 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 2: Did the prosecutors say where the political element of this 536 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 2: fits in? Is he considering that this shooting was politically motivated? 537 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 5: Prosecutors noted in the charging documents that Robinson intentionally selected 538 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 5: Kirk because of his perception regarding Kirk's political expression. So 539 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 5: that's the mention that we've seen from prosecutors in the 540 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 5: formal court documents that he was motivated by the political expression, 541 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 5: but they haven't declared that as the official motive, but 542 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 5: they've noted that that was part of why Robinson allegedly 543 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 5: decided to shoot Kirk. 544 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 2: About half the states have the death penalty on the books. 545 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 2: When was the last time Utah used it? So? 546 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 5: Utah is one of twenty three states in the US 547 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 5: that currently allows for the death penalty to be imposed 548 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,839 Speaker 5: on an individual. Compared to other states, they have had 549 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 5: less executions. Typically, when you're talking about the modern era 550 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 5: of the death penalty, we look at executions since nineteen 551 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 5: seventy six, which was when the Supreme Court said that 552 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 5: it is legal as a form of sentencing, and so 553 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 5: since then, Utah has executed eight people. 554 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 2: And what's the method of execution in Utah? 555 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 5: So, Utah Ya Like most states, every state that allows 556 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,879 Speaker 5: for the death penalty, their primary means of administering it 557 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 5: is through lethal injection. But Utah is unique in that 558 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 5: it's one of just five states that allows for a 559 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 5: firing squad to be used in execution. But that's only 560 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 5: in the situation where the state can't acquire the drugs 561 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 5: that are required for lethal injection. 562 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 2: The last time the firing squad was used was in 563 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,399 Speaker 2: twenty ten, not so long ago. Are the Feds also 564 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 2: considering bringing charges against Robinson? 565 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 5: I think that's certainly a possibility. We've heard people in 566 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 5: the Trump administration say that that's something that they're looking at. 567 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 5: Prosecutors in Utah County declined to answer questions about that 568 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 5: as well. They said that's a decision that's totally up 569 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 5: to the federal government. If they have charges that they 570 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,439 Speaker 5: want to pursue at a federal level. Nothing's been filed yet, 571 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 5: but you know that's always possible. 572 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 2: And Madeline, you recently went to the campus where the 573 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 2: shooting occurred. Tell us what it's like there now. 574 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,720 Speaker 5: That's right. So campus has been closed since the shooting, 575 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 5: but it reopened yesterday. Classes resumed and so there were 576 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 5: multiple memorial sites set up at the university and they 577 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,919 Speaker 5: were encouraging members of the public and students to leave 578 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 5: offerings and to have a moment of silence at the 579 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,720 Speaker 5: site of the shooting if that's something that was meaningful 580 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 5: for them. I spent a few hours there in the 581 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,720 Speaker 5: evening before classes resumed, and then again on Wednesday morning, 582 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,359 Speaker 5: and the mood was the same both days I was there. 583 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 5: It was very somber, very quiet. People were incredibly emotional 584 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 5: and they were passing through leaving flowers, reading signs. There 585 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 5: was chalk left out and people had scrawled different messages 586 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 5: on the sidewalks, on the roadways and even on the 587 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 5: side of some buildings, expressing support for Charlie and expressing, 588 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,720 Speaker 5: you know, mournful feelings but also hopeful feelings for the future, 589 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 5: and saying things along the lines of this didn't happen 590 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 5: in Vain. Your mission is going to continue. And people 591 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,839 Speaker 5: who visited the Amphitheater area where Kirk was actually shot. 592 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 5: The university had placed these metal barriers preventing people from 593 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 5: walking in, but many people came and leaned against the 594 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 5: edge of them and just kind of were reflecting silently 595 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 5: as they looked on this area. But if you passing through, 596 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 5: would stop and turn and look back up towards the 597 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 5: building which you can see from there where the suspect 598 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 5: allegedly fired from. So there was a lot of interest, 599 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 5: but most of it was coming from a place of 600 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:38,240 Speaker 5: mourning and wanting to find community and returning to the scene. 601 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,439 Speaker 2: The next hearing is on September twenty ninth. Will see 602 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 2: if we learn more then. Thanks so much, Madeline. That's 603 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Legal reporter Madeleine Mecklberg, and that's it for this 604 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 2: edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always 605 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 2: get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast. 606 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 2: You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at 607 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 2: www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, And 608 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 2: remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight 609 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 2: at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso and 610 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 2: you're listening to Bloomberg