Speaker 1: I remember speaking with my therapist and she was saying,
Speaker 1: is that the truth? And I said yeah, She goes,
Speaker 1: is that the whole truth though, and she goes, you
Speaker 1: don't have to say it to me, but make sure
Speaker 1: you're saying the whole truth to yourself. This is here after,
Speaker 1: and I'm your host, Megan Divine, author of the best
Speaker 1: selling book It's Okay that You're Not Okay. This week
Speaker 1: on the show, best selling author Alex L joins us
Speaker 1: to talk about her new book and what healing really means.
Speaker 1: That big broad discussion coming up right after this first break.
Speaker 1: Before we get started, one quick note. While we cover
Speaker 1: a lot of emotional relational territory in each and every episode,
Speaker 1: this show is not a substitute for skilled support for
Speaker 1: the licensed mental health provider or for professional supervision related
Speaker 1: to your work. Hey friends, So if you know me
Speaker 1: at all, you know I'm a huge fan of writing
Speaker 1: as a process for self discovery, for processing and making
Speaker 1: general sense of the world. Writers who write for their
Speaker 1: own self care tend to be really cool people. Best
Speaker 1: Selling author Alex L has a long history of writing
Speaker 1: and healing, stretching way back to her childhood. She teaches
Speaker 1: workshops and writing to heal. She hosted the podcast Hey
Speaker 1: Girl and still co host the podcast Daily Walk. Her
Speaker 1: books include After the Rain, Gentle, Reminders for Healing, Courage
Speaker 1: and Self Love, Notes from a Wanderer, and her new
Speaker 1: book How We Heal. I told you she's been writing
Speaker 1: for healing for a really long time. In today's show,
Speaker 1: we cover a big range of territory, from motherhood to
Speaker 1: community healing to the incredible power of telling yourself the
Speaker 1: truth about your own life. I hope you enjoy it. Alex,
Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. I am so glad to speak
Speaker 1: with you today. There's so much we can talk about,
Speaker 1: but I think one of the places that I would
Speaker 1: love to start is with writing itself. One of the
Speaker 1: favorite things that I learned about you as I was
Speaker 1: preparing for our time together, it was you said that
Speaker 1: you wrote your first book all of those years ago
Speaker 1: because a friend of yours said you should stop hoarding
Speaker 1: your stories. Can you tell me about that? Yeah, So,
Speaker 1: first of all, thanks for having me. I can't wait
Speaker 1: to dive into this chat with you. So. I've always
Speaker 1: been a writer always. Um. I'm the only child, so
Speaker 1: I used storytelling and stuff as a kid. Often, I
Speaker 1: don't know if you remember, like the little karaoke machines
Speaker 1: that had the microphone externally and then you could like
Speaker 1: put a tape in and record yourself. So I used to.
Speaker 1: I used to do that with my story. So I
Speaker 1: would have like these novella style sound stories on tape,
Speaker 1: because that's just what I did. And so I like,
Speaker 1: if those still exists somewhere, they could be really inter stay.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, they would be gold, totally gold. Okay.
Speaker 1: So I've always been a writer. I've always used writing
Speaker 1: as the self soothing tool, as storytelling tool, as a
Speaker 1: boredom tool. And it wasn't until I started doing my
Speaker 1: deep healing work or trying to around in that span
Speaker 1: where I learned the benefits of writing to heal, writing
Speaker 1: to recap or to purge, but really to figure out
Speaker 1: and and become more self aware and more self accountable
Speaker 1: and more self trusting. And so when I had stepped
Speaker 1: into that realm of my writing, I started writing notes
Speaker 1: to self and poetry. And a friend of mine said,
Speaker 1: you know, stop hoarding your stories and your happiness. You
Speaker 1: never know who might need your voice. She was older
Speaker 1: than me, and I believe that was her her healing
Speaker 1: wisdom shining through because I hadn't quite gotten there yet,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, who would want to read a book
Speaker 1: from me? I was twenty three when I wrote my
Speaker 1: first book. I'm thirty three now. That was ten years ago,
Speaker 1: and she said, you never know. And I did it.
Speaker 1: And along with you know, my then boyfriend now husband,
Speaker 1: his support, and a couple other friends who were in
Speaker 1: my corner, I did it. I self published my first
Speaker 1: book and it was really just for me. But I
Speaker 1: think universe, God's Spirit had other I mean clearly had
Speaker 1: other plans, because I am five books in three journals
Speaker 1: in and teaching this work for a living, and I
Speaker 1: just think it's interesting how when we let our stories
Speaker 1: and our healing take root in our lives in new ways,
Speaker 1: it can have this deeply overwhelming impact on our community.
Speaker 1: And that's what happened, yeah, which is amazing. Like I
Speaker 1: love that orientation or that foundation of I write this
Speaker 1: way for myself first, right, and then letting that notes
Speaker 1: to self, which is that that starting place for you,
Speaker 1: letting those that note to self be a gift to
Speaker 1: the world to see where other people like where that
Speaker 1: overlapping then diagram of self is in the readership. I
Speaker 1: just think there's something deeply beautiful about like feeling less
Speaker 1: alone in our stories too, which is valuable. It's totally valuable.
Speaker 1: Sticking with sort of craft of writing for a second,
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been a writer much like you, like
Speaker 1: my entire life writing to myself, and I wish I
Speaker 1: could find those journals from when I was eleven, mixture
Speaker 1: of awe and horror, probably for myself, but when I
Speaker 1: teach writing as well, A lot of what I hear
Speaker 1: back is the writing saved me sentiment. What does that
Speaker 1: mean for you? Does that resonate for you? Like writing
Speaker 1: saved me? What does that? What does that even mean?
Speaker 1: Writing not only saved me, but it changed me. It
Speaker 1: changed my relationship with myself. It allowed me to actually
Speaker 1: start listening to myself. So something that I do a lot,
Speaker 1: especially with my students and clients who may be kind
Speaker 1: of intimidated by writing. This is okay, you don't want
Speaker 1: to go to the page yet, that's fine, but voice
Speaker 1: note journal and then go back and listen to yourself,
Speaker 1: listen to your own words. And I think that that's
Speaker 1: really how I found the harmony with my writing practice
Speaker 1: and with my healing practice is not only writing, but
Speaker 1: listening to my writing or listening to my own thoughts
Speaker 1: before taking it to my writing. So yeah, it's saved me,
Speaker 1: it changed me, and I mean it has shown me
Speaker 1: a lot about the possibility. I mean, my work is
Speaker 1: deeply rooted in healing and self awareness and less about
Speaker 1: self improvement and self help and more about self nurturing,
Speaker 1: like how do we want to show up in our
Speaker 1: lives for ourselves so that we can then trickle down
Speaker 1: and support our communities, And so that in itself is
Speaker 1: like game changing, you know. And so that's what writing
Speaker 1: has offered me. It's been multifaceted. I love that you
Speaker 1: have to listen to yourself thing, and I think that's
Speaker 1: why a lot of people don't write, because it's really
Speaker 1: hard to lie to yourself on the page. I mean
Speaker 1: you can try, but then you'll be like, oh that,
Speaker 1: like that's literally a lie. So okay, yeah, you can
Speaker 1: see it when you do it, like it's oh yeah, man. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I remember reading that you said that you have your
Speaker 1: your students do notes to self as an exercise and
Speaker 1: that talking to yourself in that way is often the
Speaker 1: hardest thing for people. Because I think like you you
Speaker 1: can't lie to yourself and you have to listen, and
Speaker 1: then you have that knowledge, and what are you going
Speaker 1: to do with it? Once you hear yourself tell yourself
Speaker 1: the truth, then it's a conscious effort to ignore that
Speaker 1: truth or to find ways to live into it. I
Speaker 1: don't really have anywhere to go with that, because like
Speaker 1: I feel that in myself too, as a writer who
Speaker 1: writes for myself as well as for public consumption. Like
Speaker 1: there's that self and other thing about writing. There was
Speaker 1: a there was a post you you put up on
Speaker 1: Instagram a few months ago now, I think soon after
Speaker 1: your your last book hit the New York Times bestseller
Speaker 1: list of like I am exhausted and I don't want
Speaker 1: to play this. I don't want to play this game anymore.
Speaker 1: By everybody, it's been fun right like literally by Yeah.
Speaker 1: So there's like there's always I feel like for writers,
Speaker 1: there's there's always speaking for myself here, there's always that
Speaker 1: those two faces of the act of writing. There's the
Speaker 1: way that we right to serve ourselves on our own healing,
Speaker 1: and there's the healing work that we put out into
Speaker 1: the world. And m hm, oh, you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: emotionally exhausting before you know we started. I told you
Speaker 1: you asked me how today was, because he's been great.
Speaker 1: I just woke up from a nap, and you know,
Speaker 1: just I have literally given myself permission to slow down,
Speaker 1: and just coming off of a book tour and press
Speaker 1: and my creating a book is I have three human
Speaker 1: children and lots of book children. So I often joke
Speaker 1: like making a book is like having a child. In
Speaker 1: a way, it's a rebirth. Every time I write a
Speaker 1: new book, I feel rebored, just like every time I
Speaker 1: have a new baby. I feel like a whole shedding
Speaker 1: is happening right and I'm in my postpartum book period.
Speaker 1: I know that sounds so extra and over the top,
Speaker 1: but I really feel like it's time to do nothing
Speaker 1: for three months. It's time to settle, rest, recalibrate, and
Speaker 1: then find your words. And I don't feel bad about
Speaker 1: it at all. You can't keep giving from empty. I
Speaker 1: love that analogy of postpartum the postpartum period after a
Speaker 1: book launch. It's like there is so much work that
Speaker 1: happens behind the scenes before you even start type yes,
Speaker 1: and then so much work after the baby comes out
Speaker 1: into the world to make sure that the medicine you
Speaker 1: intend gets delivered, and then also reminding people like, hey,
Speaker 1: just put a book out, like go read it. Yeah
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, yeah, that the machine of like this
Speaker 1: this is for you, please find it, especially with the
Speaker 1: messaging we get around social media, and you know, constantly
Speaker 1: having to produce is so detrimental to our mental wellness
Speaker 1: and our creative health. Like it it just is. And
Speaker 1: so when people are like, oh, you haven't posted, like
Speaker 1: I just wrote a whole book. I wrote you a
Speaker 1: whole book. Book. It's for you, go find it. And
Speaker 1: then and then people and then some people you know,
Speaker 1: of course they're new to the platform where they're new
Speaker 1: to my working, like, oh, I had no idea. I
Speaker 1: just bought all the books. I just bought all five
Speaker 1: and the journals. And so it's allowing myself some breathing
Speaker 1: room and also giving the immunity breathing room from constantly
Speaker 1: consuming and a lot of times mindlessly, even if it's
Speaker 1: mindfulness content. Many of us are so caught in like
Speaker 1: a vortex of constant consuming and digesting of other people's thoughts, behaviors,
Speaker 1: writing art, we don't even know what's ours anymore, and
Speaker 1: so stepping back and giving people breathing room from what
Speaker 1: we are creating, I just think it's wonderful. So that's
Speaker 1: where I am. I think that's an amazing way of
Speaker 1: phrasing that that as a creator, taking a step back
Speaker 1: to care for and nourish yourself and rest is actually
Speaker 1: a gift to your audience, as a gift to the world,
Speaker 1: because it's saying, like, take a beat with the stuff,
Speaker 1: even if what you're consuming on a minute by minute
Speaker 1: basis is quote unquote healing work. Are you doing that
Speaker 1: as a way to not digest it, to not hear
Speaker 1: your own voice? We what we started started talking about
Speaker 1: at the at the top of the conversation, right like,
Speaker 1: once you start telling yourself the truth, then you have
Speaker 1: to listen to yourself or decide not to. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: love that idea as somebody who is creatively depleted a
Speaker 1: lot of the time, like taking that taking that step
Speaker 1: backwards is backwards backwards is the wrong word there, But
Speaker 1: taking that step back to turn in seeing that as
Speaker 1: a gift to the audience I think is a really
Speaker 1: cool way for creators raising hand here um creators to
Speaker 1: allow that rest to happen. Is really cool. Now we've
Speaker 1: been talking about healing this whole time, and so much
Speaker 1: of your work is around healing, and I wonder for
Speaker 1: you if you're if you're ready to move on into
Speaker 1: this this topic, like let's separate it into two if
Speaker 1: you want to, and if you don't, that's fine too,
Speaker 1: But like, where does your healing and your writing intersect
Speaker 1: with grief? What's the relationship there for you? Everywhere everywhere?
Speaker 1: And another thing I want to add to that is
Speaker 1: my healing also intersects with joy because I think so
Speaker 1: many of us are conditioned to and used to healing
Speaker 1: the hurts, tackling the trauma, peeling back the layers of
Speaker 1: the pain, but we're not necessarily encouraged to actually be
Speaker 1: with our joy, be with the joy that comes up
Speaker 1: in the midst of our brokenness, in the midst of
Speaker 1: our grief. So a lot of my healing practice these
Speaker 1: days is actually been joy work and knowing how to stop, celebrate,
Speaker 1: relish in joy, and also be mindful of just acknowledging
Speaker 1: it when it shows up. Just like the grief, we
Speaker 1: have to acknowledge the things that are in front of
Speaker 1: us in order for us to move through them. I
Speaker 1: don't really believe in like moving on from things, because
Speaker 1: some things will always feel tender, always heard, or never change.
Speaker 1: And moving through life with those things in a way
Speaker 1: that allows us to find self soothing and joy and
Speaker 1: love in the midst of the things that may be tender,
Speaker 1: I think is deeply important. So I feel like my
Speaker 1: writing work is heavily centered on yes to healing, yes
Speaker 1: to honoring grief, but also yes to leading into the
Speaker 1: celebration of joy, because it really healing really is, at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, a radical act of self
Speaker 1: choosing and self advocacy, which we can't talk about those
Speaker 1: things without also talking about joy and having that be
Speaker 1: a part of our healing toolbox. I think that's so important,
Speaker 1: such a such an important way of phrasing it too.
Speaker 1: It's like the it's like time share in the psyche
Speaker 1: right that. I feel like the way that joy or
Speaker 1: maybe joy light gets promoted pop psychology in media is like,
Speaker 1: you can't grasp joy if you're holding on to grief.
Speaker 1: And what I hear you saying is hold on here.
Speaker 1: There's a whole stew of emotion and experience and it's
Speaker 1: not binary, it's not one or the other it's everything, yes,
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people struggle with their
Speaker 1: healing practice because they think they have to be down
Speaker 1: and out unfixing, and sometimes that's where we will be.
Speaker 1: But also there are certain things, like I know for
Speaker 1: me that I am continuing to heal through and I'm
Speaker 1: still making space for joy and honesty around my grief.
Speaker 1: I was speaking a few weeks ago to a group
Speaker 1: of folks and I said, sometimes we don't need to
Speaker 1: be fixed, we just simply need to be witnessed. And
Speaker 1: I think that that's a big part of our healing,
Speaker 1: is to just bear witness to what is in front
Speaker 1: of us without trying to mend it. We don't even
Speaker 1: know what we're mending sometimes. I mean, a lot of
Speaker 1: us have so much trauma and ship that we're dealing
Speaker 1: with and wrestling with, it's like where do I even start.
Speaker 1: Sometimes the starting is just the witnessing, like Okay, this
Speaker 1: is where this hurts, this is in my body where
Speaker 1: I'm carrying this, or I remember when that happened and
Speaker 1: that's how I felt ten years ago. Like literally just witnessing,
Speaker 1: not necessarily going back to try to dismantle and prepare,
Speaker 1: but just to look at it and see where spirit leads. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the power in acknowledging and telling yourself the truth. Again,
Speaker 1: it goes back to what we were talking about with
Speaker 1: the power of storytelling and writing your own story to
Speaker 1: yourself and listening to it. It's that act of listening, right,
Speaker 1: that you have to see what has been true for you.
Speaker 1: I also really, I mean, we know, I really love
Speaker 1: the idea of not fixing things, but that there is
Speaker 1: such power in saying out and I'll and saying yeah,
Speaker 1: but right in the moment we're talking about saying out, like,
Speaker 1: there's so much power in that, and that that is
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways the full stop exercise. You
Speaker 1: don't have to go back there and like, Okay, I
Speaker 1: you know, I'm starting to work on childhood grief and
Speaker 1: loss and trauma and what I didn't get in the world,
Speaker 1: and I have to just dive in there and get
Speaker 1: messy with it and wrestle with it and who And
Speaker 1: also maybe there is great healing. What I hear you
Speaker 1: saying is there's great healing in telling yourself the story
Speaker 1: of what was and the effect that it's had on
Speaker 1: you and just noticing like this is actually mindfulness, right,
Speaker 1: just noticing holding, sitting next to it, like coming up
Speaker 1: close to it, because so many of us are deeply
Speaker 1: distant from ourselves and from our truth, and so back
Speaker 1: to the whole truth telling is like, we need to
Speaker 1: be honest with what we're feeling, how we're feeling, and
Speaker 1: that's the first step. Not and but be honest. The
Speaker 1: other things will come to complete full circle with honesty.
Speaker 1: It may be challenging and maybe like I don't understand
Speaker 1: what she's trying to stay. They're like, I've been honest,
Speaker 1: but like, I know when I thought I've been honest,
Speaker 1: and I'm you know, teetering on the line of withholding
Speaker 1: as well. So I remember speaking with my therapist and
Speaker 1: she was saying, is that the truth? And I said yeah,
Speaker 1: she goes, is that the whole truth though, and she goes,
Speaker 1: you don't have to say it to me, but make
Speaker 1: sure you're saying the whole truth to yourself. And I
Speaker 1: just remember being like, oh, damn, I guess she's probably right.
Speaker 1: Therapists therapists who say things like that that it reminds
Speaker 1: me of a friend of mine talks about writing about
Speaker 1: the things you can't write about, and that the story
Speaker 1: that you just told reminds me of that, like, if
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel safe enough, or you don't you don't
Speaker 1: have the space to be able to tell yourself the
Speaker 1: full truth and tell that story right telling the story
Speaker 1: of what it's like to not be able to tell
Speaker 1: the truth right now, That in itself is magic. That
Speaker 1: is a truth right now. Yeah, and that counts for
Speaker 1: a lot. Oh my gosh, it counts for so much
Speaker 1: because you're still you're still doing our truth telling mechanism
Speaker 1: of action for the good of your healing, right You're
Speaker 1: telling yourself the truth is I don't feel resourced enough
Speaker 1: or supported enough to be able to even tell my
Speaker 1: self the truth about what's happening right now. Okay, then
Speaker 1: we can take the step backwards or backwards I keep
Speaker 1: saying backwards, and it's not what it's such a it's
Speaker 1: such an implied regression and that's not where I'm going.
Speaker 1: But taking a step outside of that and saying, what
Speaker 1: do I need for myself knowing that it's not safe
Speaker 1: to tell the whole truth right now? What's the truth
Speaker 1: in caring for myself inside not being able to tell
Speaker 1: the whole truth? Love that framing It's still like it's
Speaker 1: such it's such a kindness. And something interesting happened today.
Speaker 1: So I mentioned I have three children. My oldest is fifteen,
Speaker 1: my youngest is three, my middle will be five next week.
Speaker 1: So we have an array of ages in the house,
Speaker 1: all girls, and they are so wonderful. And my oldest
Speaker 1: is a freshman in high school. And she texts me
Speaker 1: today she said, Mom, can I call you? And I said, yeah,
Speaker 1: what's going on? Are you okay? No, I'm not okay.
Speaker 1: So she calls and she's crying and she's having a moment.
Speaker 1: We're talking through the moment, and I just said, remember
Speaker 1: what the truth is and what your truth is. You
Speaker 1: have the answers to this already, and she did and
Speaker 1: she goes, yeah, I know, I know what I need
Speaker 1: to do. And it was around school work and stuff.
Speaker 1: And she's kind of a perfectionist that used to being
Speaker 1: straight a student, and like she's just adjusting to being
Speaker 1: a high schooler in in ap honors classes and it's hard,
Speaker 1: and I just said, listen. She was like, I just
Speaker 1: think you're going to be disappointed. And I'm not disappointed.
Speaker 1: Papa won't be disappointed. You might be disappointed. So that's
Speaker 1: maybe where this truth is coming from for you? And
Speaker 1: she goes, yeah it is. I said, okay, well, I
Speaker 1: am here to support you whatever you need for me,
Speaker 1: to help you stay organized, to help this end of
Speaker 1: the marketing period feel good for you. But only you
Speaker 1: can handle this. Mama is not in high school anymore,
Speaker 1: thank god. Okay, you know, my poor, my poor sweet
Speaker 1: soul of a girl is like just trying to balance
Speaker 1: and figure it out part of being a human, right
Speaker 1: and she and she is. She also said I know
Speaker 1: what I need to do by the end of our conversation,
Speaker 1: and so that feels good because even when things may
Speaker 1: not be going how we want them to go, we
Speaker 1: can still make it back to the truth. And I
Speaker 1: think that that's something really beautiful. And as a mother,
Speaker 1: teaching my children self love through gentleness us and through
Speaker 1: truth telling and through okay, let's talk about the hard
Speaker 1: thing here and see what's going on like that is
Speaker 1: such a gift for our lineage. I talk about this
Speaker 1: and how we heal when we heal ourselves, we heal
Speaker 1: each other, we heal our lineage. And so I'm sharing
Speaker 1: that little bitty story because one being a caretaker is
Speaker 1: not easy, but it's beautiful work if we're leaning in
Speaker 1: with intention. And two, we have to show our children,
Speaker 1: whether we're raising them or they just in our lives
Speaker 1: in some capacity, god kids, niece's, nephews, whatever, like we
Speaker 1: are giving their watching us, they're bearing witness to us,
Speaker 1: right and so we're giving them the tools with our responses,
Speaker 1: with our you know, with what we don't say. And
Speaker 1: it's like, how do we make sure that we're nurturing
Speaker 1: and healing and growing our lineage in a way that
Speaker 1: is healthy and also rooted in truth. And it's not
Speaker 1: that you're going to present this like I have my
Speaker 1: ship together persona to the people who are watching you
Speaker 1: for a living. I hear this a lot with grieving families.
Speaker 1: They're like, you know, my kids lost their other parents,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to be sad around them, and
Speaker 1: you know, I have to have myself together and emotionally
Speaker 1: calmed like all of this stuff. And of course you
Speaker 1: want to do things in an age appropriate way. You
Speaker 1: don't want to be sobbing on your four year old shoulder,
Speaker 1: leaning on them like you had a therapist. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, it's like being able to say this
Speaker 1: is really difficult right now, and here's how I'm handling it.
Speaker 1: How are you handling it? And I love that you
Speaker 1: bring in like reminding someone of the truth that they
Speaker 1: already know. That's very different than dismissing them and saying
Speaker 1: you figure it out? Right, Like, what's the difference for
Speaker 1: you between you figure it out and calling somebody into
Speaker 1: their own truth? Okay, before we get back to the show,
Speaker 1: I want to tell you about a new way to
Speaker 1: connect with me. Each and every month, I host a
Speaker 1: live video call in show. If you've ever wish you
Speaker 1: could talk to me directly, this is by far the
Speaker 1: easiest way to do it. All of the information is
Speaker 1: at patreon dot com, backslash Megan Divine, and you can
Speaker 1: also find that link in the show notes. I hope
Speaker 1: to see you there everybody. All right, let's get back
Speaker 1: to my conversation with best selling author Alex l what's
Speaker 1: the difference for you between you figure it out and
Speaker 1: calling somebody into their own truth. That's a really good
Speaker 1: question because I was raised with you figure it out?
Speaker 1: M hm. Same, you know, and kids are to be
Speaker 1: seen and not heard, and you do what I say
Speaker 1: in this house like I very much that was raised
Speaker 1: like that and I knew that I did not want
Speaker 1: to bring that into my home with my kids. Here's
Speaker 1: the thing. We don't have to tell folks our children
Speaker 1: or not to figure it out, because people freaking know
Speaker 1: that they need to figure it out, right, So we
Speaker 1: don't have to remind people to figure it out because
Speaker 1: everyone is freaking trying their best. So that's unhelpful. That's
Speaker 1: unhelpful that people are figuring it out. So that's one
Speaker 1: thing I would say, let's stop using that language because
Speaker 1: it just compounds the stress and the internal emotional chaos.
Speaker 1: And then lovingly calling somebody in is more for me.
Speaker 1: When I hear that, I hear asking questions, how are
Speaker 1: you feeling right now? Why do you think this is happening?
Speaker 1: You know, when we were talking about school today, okay,
Speaker 1: so why do you think this is happening? And then
Speaker 1: she told me do you think that's true? She goes,
Speaker 1: I know that that's true, right, So talking this is
Speaker 1: how I work with my clients and how I now started.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't coach my teen year olds, but
Speaker 1: her mama, my mama, her. This is how my mom
Speaker 1: with her. Like I just I just asked questions and
Speaker 1: also I offer reframes like as an outsider looking in,
Speaker 1: sometimes we may be able to offer a different perspective,
Speaker 1: And so I'll ask, like, can I share what I'm seeing?
Speaker 1: Sometimes she'll say yes. Sometimes she'll say now the asking
Speaker 1: is so important, though, getting that permission before we jump
Speaker 1: in with our take on things, which is which is
Speaker 1: so hard, so hard, so hard. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: lip biting and sitting on hands. Man. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: mean I think about that with grief too. I have
Speaker 1: a friend who lost her sister and her dad within
Speaker 1: the same year, and we were on FaceTime and we
Speaker 1: were talking and she uh got emotional and started crying
Speaker 1: and just was talking her way through and was crying
Speaker 1: and doing it. And I know that our first human
Speaker 1: instinct is to be like, oh, don't cry, Oh it's okay,
Speaker 1: But I act actual wouldn't even crying. I mean, I
Speaker 1: was just talking and she's having a moment, and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna hold this. I have the capacity. I'm gonna hold
Speaker 1: this moment steady for her. And at the end of
Speaker 1: what she was saying, she goes, thanks for not fixing
Speaker 1: my tears or trying to fix what's me being sad.
Speaker 1: Thank you, And I said I love you, You're welcome,
Speaker 1: because I remember growing up my mom always saying tears
Speaker 1: don't solve problems, tears don't fix anything. So I never
Speaker 1: was allowed to grieve. I don't think I started grieving
Speaker 1: until I turned to thirty, and that was almost four.
Speaker 1: I'll be thirty four this year. And so it's interesting
Speaker 1: what happens when we become adults and we have to
Speaker 1: unlearn the things that we've picked up in childhood, and
Speaker 1: then we have to model the way that we want
Speaker 1: to be in the world without having an example. When
Speaker 1: no one taught me how to be a mother, no
Speaker 1: one taught me how to be norm and nurturing. I
Speaker 1: had to figure that out on my own. No one
Speaker 1: taught me how to hold space and not try to
Speaker 1: fix someone's tears. I had to figure it out on
Speaker 1: my own. And I think it's for me a part
Speaker 1: of my healing and grief work is what did I
Speaker 1: need that I didn't get And how do I hold
Speaker 1: myself and my community in a way that I wish
Speaker 1: that I was held. So I think that's really what
Speaker 1: healing and calling in and grief and the intersection of
Speaker 1: joy and everything. It's really like an emotional onion. Like
Speaker 1: that's really kind of how I look at it. It's
Speaker 1: so multifascinated as all these different stepping stones that bring
Speaker 1: us home to ourselves. I love that image of holding
Speaker 1: the moment steady for someone not jumping in to fix
Speaker 1: something is so unusual because it is hard. It's the
Speaker 1: way that we're trained right through every possible influx, Like
Speaker 1: trained if somebody is having a moment, you need to
Speaker 1: get them out of that moment. So not acting on
Speaker 1: that impulse, right and and you know your friends saying
Speaker 1: thank you for not fixing it, Like, it's such a
Speaker 1: rarity to be able to in your emotions, in your truth,
Speaker 1: in your grief, in whatever is going on, for you
Speaker 1: to feel like you have the space to feel it
Speaker 1: without being rushed out of it. That is the thing.
Speaker 1: I wrote something about rushing this week, and I want
Speaker 1: to read it to you because I was often rushed
Speaker 1: as a child, and something that I'm learning what learning
Speaker 1: not to do is rush in my life. So my
Speaker 1: word of the year is a nourishment. And I am
Speaker 1: deeply leaning into finding alignment and nourishment and slowing down.
Speaker 1: And so can I reach you what I wrote about
Speaker 1: please rushing. It says, give yourself permission to slow down.
Speaker 1: Slow down in your relations and ships, slow down in rushing,
Speaker 1: to say yes, slow down instead of immediately saying no.
Speaker 1: Allow yourself to practice the sacred act of ease and
Speaker 1: intentional processing. You don't have to know what's next today,
Speaker 1: you don't have to know how you feel at this
Speaker 1: very moment. You're allowed to pace yourself to think about things,
Speaker 1: and you are allowed to process, release the idea that
Speaker 1: you've got to know and solve and address things right now.
Speaker 1: You don't slow down. I just think that that's so
Speaker 1: important because we live in a world that teaches the
Speaker 1: complete opposite, and so they just wonder what would happen
Speaker 1: if more of us slowed steadied. Yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 1: I feel like there's that implied finish line in healing
Speaker 1: work of any kind that means we have to keep
Speaker 1: moving and we have to keep moving forward right that.
Speaker 1: If you aren't actively working your healing, you're doing it wrong,
Speaker 1: which is just such trash, total trash. It's not true
Speaker 1: to lie, it's not true. That's not true. There's something
Speaker 1: that you've said before that's sort of related to this.
Speaker 1: Give yourself permission to heal from the same thing more
Speaker 1: than once. I feel like those those are related sentiments.
Speaker 1: What you just shared about slowing down and taking space
Speaker 1: and making a nourishing pacing for yourself in your life,
Speaker 1: and this idea that you can heal from the same
Speaker 1: thing more than once. I mean, I think we're all
Speaker 1: doing it every day. I think often about my husband
Speaker 1: who lost his mom six years ago, and he said,
Speaker 1: that is never not going to hurt, that is always
Speaker 1: going to tear me up, and that is okay. So
Speaker 1: giving ourselves permission to self soothed through those triggered moments,
Speaker 1: through those super tender moments, through those deeply painful wounds,
Speaker 1: I think it's how we take our power back. I
Speaker 1: know for me, I struggle with a lot of childhood
Speaker 1: trauma and neglect and abandonment and really harsh treatment from
Speaker 1: my caretakers, and that will hurt me forever, especially as
Speaker 1: I look at my children. I'm like, how could anyone
Speaker 1: not want to just make things better and easeful and
Speaker 1: loving for their child? And so that's inner child work
Speaker 1: that I will be tending to and patching up and
Speaker 1: giving kisses until I can't. I share things like that
Speaker 1: because So many folks think healing is this arrival, but
Speaker 1: really it's a forever love that teaches us and calls
Speaker 1: us in to learn how to hold steady for ourselves.
Speaker 1: I really that's what healing is. It's a practice, it's
Speaker 1: a lifestyle practice, and it's so much more than the hurt.
Speaker 1: It's also the joy Like. Healing has allowed me to
Speaker 1: create a beautiful, loving home for my children, has allowed
Speaker 1: me to be in deep partnership and friendship with my husband,
Speaker 1: has allowed me to have really impactful, nourishing sisterhood friendships,
Speaker 1: all because of the healing work I chose to do.
Speaker 1: And that's joyous. So when I say healing is also
Speaker 1: this radical act of joy like, that's what I mean.
Speaker 1: It opens up so many doors for emotional expansion in
Speaker 1: really beautiful ways. Yeah, it doesn't mean the thing that
Speaker 1: the things that hurt don't hurt anymore. Yeah, because I
Speaker 1: think if we don't allow ourselves to come into relationship
Speaker 1: with the things that hurt, all of that energy goes
Speaker 1: to suppressing it. We can't liberate the life force of
Speaker 1: the things that hurt if we don't let them hurt.
Speaker 1: That's the thing that's it. Yeah. Again, truth telling where
Speaker 1: does it hurt. That's major. It's major, it is major.
Speaker 1: And holding space for yourself. I'm going to come back
Speaker 1: to that so many times that like steadying the moment
Speaker 1: for yourself and for others, it's really for me, like
Speaker 1: this is what builds a nourished, nourishing, joyful, creative life.
Speaker 1: It is not a life that doesn't hurt. It's actually
Speaker 1: a life that contains a lot of hurt. Because that
Speaker 1: is true. Yeah, it's a bit of a leap, but
Speaker 1: we're talking about pain that we carry and coming into
Speaker 1: relationship with it. And I would love to widen our
Speaker 1: lens out a little bit and talk about the pain
Speaker 1: of the world, if that's okay with you. So I
Speaker 1: remember seeing a post that you put up soon after
Speaker 1: yet another mass shooting that happened in the last year,
Speaker 1: and you wrote, I feel like I've been crying for
Speaker 1: a lifetime. So the first question that I had for
Speaker 1: this is like, how do we balance healing work and
Speaker 1: a belief enjoy in the world such as it is.
Speaker 1: I struggle with that, especially as a parent who sends
Speaker 1: their children out into the world to go to school.
Speaker 1: I think what has helped me soften some of the
Speaker 1: worldly anxiety that I have is savoring the now in
Speaker 1: the moment and being present with the right now. I mean,
Speaker 1: I walked through the world with O c D depression
Speaker 1: and anxiety as an adult. I take fifty of the
Speaker 1: loft every day, and so I know that if I
Speaker 1: don't hone in on some of the anxieties that I
Speaker 1: can't carry, it will literally make me feel outside of myself.
Speaker 1: And so when the last mass shooting happened with those
Speaker 1: little kids at that elementary school, I was so sad,
Speaker 1: like it hurt me on a different level, and I
Speaker 1: wasn't one of the parents who lost their children. I
Speaker 1: felt like all those children were my children, and all
Speaker 1: of that sadness was my sadness, and all that pain
Speaker 1: was my pain. And I really had to turn to
Speaker 1: Pema Children's work and Tick Nakhan's work and try to
Speaker 1: make sense of this is crazy that there's so much
Speaker 1: pain in the world. Like I know those families wanted
Speaker 1: the world to stop just for a second. But even
Speaker 1: in that moment, people didn't know about the tragedy. People,
Speaker 1: you know, some people were everybody, not some people. Everybody,
Speaker 1: Like time goes on, and that's what's so wild to me.
Speaker 1: I just lost my grandfather a month ago, and I
Speaker 1: remember getting the news at the airport before I got
Speaker 1: on my flight home to d C and wishing that
Speaker 1: there was like a pause button. But the world I
Speaker 1: was it was the most strange thing. I'm looking around
Speaker 1: and everyone there's people laughing, there's people just life is happening,
Speaker 1: and I am dealing with this loss. It is wild,
Speaker 1: and so I think I don't want to say hope,
Speaker 1: but I think knowing that all I can control is
Speaker 1: myself is not always the most comforting thing, because I
Speaker 1: wish I could control all these outside forces and keep
Speaker 1: my baby safe and keep these these terrible things from
Speaker 1: happening and stop people from dying, and like, of course,
Speaker 1: but we can't. So it's like, how do we hold
Speaker 1: the truth of that and still allow ourselves to live
Speaker 1: and to find joy. Me and my husband talk about
Speaker 1: this a lot, especially when it comes to underserved communities
Speaker 1: and poverty and things like that, right, and so it
Speaker 1: can be just deeply challenging to be like, WHOA, only
Speaker 1: certain people had certain access to this, but so many
Speaker 1: people don't have access. So it's been like how do
Speaker 1: we It's like, I'm the type person. It's like, I
Speaker 1: just want to fix the world, So let's figure out
Speaker 1: how we can give everybody access, how we can take
Speaker 1: everybody's pain. But that's just I wish that's how it works,
Speaker 1: it's not how it works, and so I don't know.
Speaker 1: I've just been holding a lot of space for the
Speaker 1: duality of joy and grief because, as the Buddhists have said,
Speaker 1: to live is to suffer. But how do we hold
Speaker 1: ourselves through the suffering that we are inevitably going to
Speaker 1: go through? And I don't have an answer, which is
Speaker 1: probably why I'm rambling, But that's a really great question
Speaker 1: to talk through because it's like I don't know, and
Speaker 1: what do I know to be true? And how do
Speaker 1: I process that? That's the thing there, Right, It's like
Speaker 1: I always get so irritated with like Buddhism light right,
Speaker 1: with like pain of like life is suffering, So stop
Speaker 1: being so attached and it won't bug you. Right, This
Speaker 1: really reductive, transactional interpretation, very loose interpretation of some really
Speaker 1: powerful teaching. And I love the rambling way you just
Speaker 1: describe that because it's like, there is so much pain
Speaker 1: in the world, and there is probably not a lot
Speaker 1: I can do about it. So what is what can
Speaker 1: in my power? What can I do for myself, for
Speaker 1: the close in community around me? How do I want
Speaker 1: to be engaging in the world, are relating to the
Speaker 1: world knowing that there is a metric ton of pain
Speaker 1: that I can do nothing about. It's it really is
Speaker 1: calling that that power of your own truth back to
Speaker 1: yourself and not lying to yourself that you're okay with
Speaker 1: the mess of the world or that you are powerless,
Speaker 1: because that's also not true. Yeah, I feel that deeply,
Speaker 1: and I think too, there's also this sense of I
Speaker 1: don't know if it's guilt, uh maybe guilt where it's like, wow,
Speaker 1: some people are gonna have it a lot worse than
Speaker 1: I ever have, and that is terrible, and like, what
Speaker 1: do we do, especially as someone who's a feeler. I'm
Speaker 1: a feeler and I don't even watch I cannot watch
Speaker 1: the news. I don't even listen to the news anymore.
Speaker 1: I just can't. I can't do it. It was literally
Speaker 1: draining my energy. I was just sad, and so as
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about what we were just talking about, and
Speaker 1: you mentioned like what can I do in my immediate space?
Speaker 1: And I think my duty is to love on people,
Speaker 1: is to love these kids and raise them to be kind, compassionate,
Speaker 1: caring humans, and is to show up in my work
Speaker 1: and to keep writing these books and to keep giving
Speaker 1: away as many free books as I can when I can,
Speaker 1: and to love on people. To smile at people when
Speaker 1: I'm on my walks, to say hello to the cash year,
Speaker 1: to ask how people are doing, to make eye contact,
Speaker 1: like that's what I can do. And I know that
Speaker 1: those things sound so small, and sometimes I'm like, that's
Speaker 1: not enough. But then I go back to the target
Speaker 1: that I always go to, and I go to the
Speaker 1: same cashier and I asked her how she's doing, and
Speaker 1: we sit and were talking, holding up the line for
Speaker 1: ten minutes that she's telling me how she's doing, and
Speaker 1: I'm listening and I'm holding steady and I'm listening, and
Speaker 1: she's like, all right, baby, i'll see you next time.
Speaker 1: Come back to my line. Like that is leaving the
Speaker 1: world better. Maybe that made her whole day, you know,
Speaker 1: And so like it's those little things that we can
Speaker 1: do two do our part, be intentional with how we're
Speaker 1: moving through the world. That's what That's really what I've
Speaker 1: been leaning on doing How do how can I serve
Speaker 1: by being intentional? Yeah, and holding steady at your point
Speaker 1: in the world, in this day, in this moment, in
Speaker 1: this relationship, with this situation in front of me. It's
Speaker 1: not about pain or not pain. It's not about fixing
Speaker 1: or not fixing. It's about how do I show up
Speaker 1: and see the truth in this and hold study. I
Speaker 1: love this. That is something that I feel like that
Speaker 1: I can hold onto, and I hope that other people
Speaker 1: can hold onto as well. I end every conversation during
Speaker 1: the season with the same question. And you and I
Speaker 1: have sort of traveled at the outskirts of hope off
Speaker 1: and on during our whole time together. But I'm going
Speaker 1: to ask you this question anyway. So, knowing what you
Speaker 1: know and living what you've lived, what does hope look
Speaker 1: like for you? It's a really beautiful question. What's coming
Speaker 1: to mind is hope looks like the possibility of coming
Speaker 1: home to myself, regardless of the season. I'm in the healing,
Speaker 1: I'm in the joy, I'm in the grief I'm in
Speaker 1: I hope that I can always find my way home
Speaker 1: to myself into my center. So that's what hope looks
Speaker 1: like for me. I love it, and this is a
Speaker 1: really good place for us to close out our time
Speaker 1: together because I'm going to go sit with your words
Speaker 1: with myself for a while and see what comes up
Speaker 1: into that moment. So we're gonna obviously link to your
Speaker 1: book and your website and your social media in the
Speaker 1: show notes for today's show. Is there anything else you
Speaker 1: want people to know where to find you, what to
Speaker 1: look for, what's coming up next for you? You can
Speaker 1: find me at wherever they plug the show notes. I'm there.
Speaker 1: I have a small emotional wellness group coaching session that's
Speaker 1: coming up. It's a six week session that starts in
Speaker 1: February and I'm really excited about that and I'll be
Speaker 1: doing three more this year, so once of quarters you
Speaker 1: can look out for that on Alex l dot com.
Speaker 1: And if you want a newsletter from me, I write
Speaker 1: a newsletter on sub stack called Gratitude Journal and it's
Speaker 1: a fun little place to be and reflections there. So
Speaker 1: if you can find me there too, awesome. We will
Speaker 1: link to all of that stuff in the show notes. Everybody, Alex,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. Stay tuned. Everybody
Speaker 1: will be back with your questions to carry with you
Speaker 1: after this break each week, I leave you with some
Speaker 1: questions to carry with you until we meet again. Now,
Speaker 1: you know, it really struck me in this conversation was
Speaker 1: when alex said, give yourself permission to heal from the
Speaker 1: same thing more than once. So often I think we're
Speaker 1: really hard on ourselves, like when old wounds or old
Speaker 1: patterns are old habits come up and we're like, I
Speaker 1: thought I did that work already. But it really is
Speaker 1: true that nothing about being human is a linear do
Speaker 1: it once and you're all done process. Really, nothing about
Speaker 1: human is linear like that. Everything is a continuum. So
Speaker 1: giving yourself permission to heal from the same thing more
Speaker 1: than once, I really like that. How about you? What
Speaker 1: stood out to you in this conversation with Alexel. Everybody's
Speaker 1: going to take something different from today's show, but I
Speaker 1: do hope you find something to hold onto. Hope really
Speaker 1: is a crowdsourced thing, and I definitely want to hear
Speaker 1: from you on all this. Check out Refuge in Grief
Speaker 1: on Instagram or here after Pod on TikTok to see
Speaker 1: video clips from the show and leave your thoughts in
Speaker 1: the comments on those posts. Be sure to tag us
Speaker 1: on your own social media accounts and use the hashtag
Speaker 1: here after pod on all the platforms so we can
Speaker 1: find you. We'd love to see where the show takes you. Everybody,
Speaker 1: and remember to subscribe and leave a review. That stuff
Speaker 1: helps more than you could ever know. If you want
Speaker 1: to tell us how today's show felt for you, or
Speaker 1: you have a request or a question for an upcoming episode,
Speaker 1: send us an email. You can do that right from
Speaker 1: the website. Megan Divine dot c O. We want to
Speaker 1: hear from you. I want to hear from you. This show,
Speaker 1: this world needs your voice. Together, we can make things
Speaker 1: better even when they can't be made right. Want more Hereafter.
Speaker 1: Grief education doesn't just belong to end of life issues.
Speaker 1: As my dad says, daily life is full of everyday
Speaker 1: grief that we don't call grief. Learning how to talk
Speaker 1: about all of that without cliches or platitudes or simplistic
Speaker 1: dismissive statements is an important skill for everyone. Find trainings,
Speaker 1: professional resources, and my best selling book, It's Okay that
Speaker 1: You're Not Okay. Plus The Guided Journal for Grief at
Speaker 1: Megan Divine dot c O. Hereafter with Megan Divine is
Speaker 1: written and produced by me Megan Divine. Executive producer is
Speaker 1: Amy Brown, co produced by Elizabeth Fossio. Logistical and social
Speaker 1: media support from Micah, edited by Houston Tilly, Music provided
Speaker 1: by Wave Crush and background noise provided by me being
Speaker 1: antsy in the chair and the chair being squeaky. Oh.