1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 3 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 2: is Robert. 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 3: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we are back with 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 3: the fourth and I think for now final part in 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 3: our series called Dog Days and Death Stars, where we've 7 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 3: been talking about the concept of the dog days of summer, 8 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 3: which in ancient times were linked to the halliacal rising 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 3: of the brightest star in the night sky serious known 10 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 3: to the Greeks as the dog Star. If you are 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 3: just now jumping in with this episode, I think you 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 3: should probably go back and listen to the other three 13 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 3: parts in the series. First, we've already covered a lot 14 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 3: of ground and we will keep referring back to that 15 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 3: in this episode, but for a brief recap. In part 16 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 3: one of this series, we talked about invocations of the 17 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 3: dog days and of serious in poetry, music, and ancient 18 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 3: literature like the Iliad, where in the Iliad the dog 19 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 3: star was a dual symbol of both brilliance and death. 20 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 3: And we discussed the star serious a itself. Why it's 21 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 3: the brightest star visible from the earth apart from the Sun, 22 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 3: of course, how long it has been and will be 23 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 3: the brightest in our sky, how the time of its 24 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 3: rising has shifted over the course of human history, and 25 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 3: why some ancient astronomers might have believed that the light 26 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 3: that issued from it was read. We also talked about 27 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 3: Don Henley a good bit in that episode and in 28 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,199 Speaker 3: part two. Actually Don Henley has been a recurring theme, 29 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 3: So in part two we talked about the imagery and 30 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 3: narrative associated with Sirius and its constellation Canus major across 31 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 3: different cultures. Often it is a dog or a wolf, 32 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 3: sometimes it's not, sometimess, other things like a bow and arrow. 33 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 3: We also talked about the historical misconception that the dog 34 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 3: days of summer actually somehow caused rabies in and then 35 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 3: we got into the discovery of the actual cause of 36 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 3: rabies and the development of the rabies vaccine. In Part three, 37 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,399 Speaker 3: I talked about the twinkling of serious what ancient writers 38 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 3: made of that, thinking it might be evidence of harmful 39 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 3: emanations from the star, and also we talked about what 40 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 3: we today know actually causes the twinkling of stars, also 41 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 3: known as scintillation. After that, we talked about aliens from 42 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 3: serious in science fiction, and also about a now pretty 43 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 3: thoroughly debunked but interesting claim by ancient astronaut proponents that 44 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 3: a group of people in West Africa had knowledge about 45 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 3: the binary Star serious be that could only have been 46 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 3: supplied by alien visitors. You know how those stories go. 47 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 3: We got into numerous reasons why this alien explanation is flawed, 48 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 3: and we are back today to round out the series. 49 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 3: A lot of times when we get to part four 50 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:03,239 Speaker 3: of something, this is when we come back to earlier 51 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 3: things that we turned up in our research that seemed 52 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 3: too tangential before, but like now it's time to let 53 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 3: it all hang loose. 54 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean by this point we've established the 55 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 2: core ideas and we can get into kind of the 56 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 2: sidebar information. Also reminds me about how I don't know 57 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 2: if it's still the case, but at least used to 58 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 2: on this American life by the time you got to 59 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: act for it may or may not really be tied 60 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,239 Speaker 2: into the theme of the episode anymore, but it's still interesting. 61 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 3: Well, the tangent I want to take us on today 62 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 3: in my segment here is going to be very much 63 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 3: on topic, but it's going to be to a paper 64 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 3: that I'm going to go ahead and say right at 65 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 3: the top. I do not find its core thesis very convincing, 66 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 3: and it takes a kind of circuitous route to get there. 67 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 3: But I also found the paper very interesting and charming 68 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 3: and like the you know, it goes out on a limb, 69 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 3: but the crawl to get there is pretty fun. So 70 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 3: would you like to go on that journey with me? 71 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, let's do it. 72 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 3: Okay. So this paper was published in the Journal Western 73 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 3: Folklore in nineteen eighty four by an American folklore scholar 74 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 3: named Eleanor R. Long, and it's called How the Dog 75 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 3: Got Its Days, a skeptical inquiry into traditional star and 76 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 3: weather lore. Eleanor Long passed away in two thousand and five. 77 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 3: She taught at several different universities across her career, including 78 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 3: UCLA and shout out that I came across this paper 79 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 3: because it was mentioned in a Jstore Daily article from 80 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 3: twenty sixteen by Matthew Wills. Hats off to the people 81 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 3: put together the Jaystore Daily articles. I often end up 82 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 3: getting to like a really weird, interesting academic paper through 83 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 3: those things. 84 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love Jaystore Daily. Sometimes if I'm kind of 85 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 2: casting about for a podcast topic, I'll even just go 86 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: to my work email, and I'll just type in Jstore 87 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 2: Daily and then something pumpkins, I don't know, and just 88 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 2: see what comes up, and I might be reminded of like, oh, 89 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 2: look at this. This is a jastore Daily from two 90 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: years ago, and they referenced something kind of interesting about pumpkins. 91 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 2: I'm going to read a little more about it. 92 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, yeah, they do a great job at just 93 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 3: unearthing treasures from the old academic journals. So anyway, in 94 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 3: this paper, Eleanor Long talks a lot about the same 95 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 3: lore we've already discussed in previous episodes. So I'm going 96 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 3: to try to avoid retreading too much familiar material, and 97 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 3: I'm going to focus mainly on the stuff she covers 98 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 3: that we haven't already gotten in too much, and the 99 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 3: stuff that is unique to the argument she's making. Long 100 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 3: starts off by cataloging popular cultural beliefs about the dog 101 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 3: days of summer, especially in the English speaking world, many 102 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 3: of them having to do with hot weather and generally 103 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 3: unwanted outcomes. So during the dog days, there are accounts 104 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 3: of people believing that dogs go mad. We've hit that 105 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 3: one plenty of times, that snakes go blind, haven't heard 106 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 3: this one before. 107 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 2: That is interesting. Yeah, do you have more to say 108 00:05:58,880 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 2: about this one? 109 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 3: No, he just says this is one of the beliefs 110 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 3: she's uncovered. 111 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm interested to see what, you know, her petologists 112 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 2: might might make of this. But the one thing that 113 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: comes to mind is like, if it's really hot, maybe 114 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:17,119 Speaker 2: more snakes are out and you could potentially almost step 115 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 2: on one. And your argument could be that snake must 116 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,239 Speaker 2: have been blind. It didn't see me coming. I almost 117 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 2: stepped on him, almost got bitten by that snake. I 118 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 2: don't know. 119 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 3: Interesting. 120 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, Otherwise, like what is the human interaction with the snake, 121 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 2: because clearly it has to be something about us encountering 122 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 2: the snake that makes us go I think the snakes 123 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 2: have gone blind. There must be some encounter there. 124 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 3: I mean, I do think about don't at least some 125 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 3: snakes when they shed their skins they get a kind 126 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 3: of cataract appearance over the eye right before it happens. 127 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that's another possibility. Yeah, that's a good one. 128 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 3: I don't know if that would have anything to do 129 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 3: with the timing of the dog days. 130 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, all you'd have to be doing, of course, 131 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 2: as is often the case in folklore and stuff is 132 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 2: just be looking for something that's different and then bam, 133 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 2: you make the connection you need to make. 134 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then of course confirmation bias can pick up 135 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 3: from there. It's just like anytime somebody finds a snake 136 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 3: skin that's the right kind of thing, or has the 137 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 3: experience like ah that confirms it. Okay, yeah, so other things. 138 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 3: She mentions, chicken eggs go rotten or they hatch, but 139 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 3: the chickens are like crazy, abnormal chickens. 140 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: Like mutant chickens. 141 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 3: Okay, she just says, crazy chickens. I wonder what, like, 142 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 3: I don't know, Yeah, I would like to see what 143 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 3: those chickens are supposed to look like. Maybe they peck 144 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 3: too much. Apparently it is not It is thought to 145 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 3: not be a good time for tilling the soil, and 146 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 3: it is sometimes said that you shouldn't harvest vegetables or 147 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 3: cut down trees during this time. The last couple of 148 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 3: roughly agricultural or growing related pieces of wisdom. Those semen 149 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 3: line with some of the ancient Greek wisdom we've talked about, Like, 150 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 3: you know, summertime dog days, just hide in the shade 151 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 3: like he see it says there is also apparently a 152 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 3: belief that wounds will not heal properly during this time. 153 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 3: This also goes along with things that we've encountered in 154 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 3: these old, older medical manuals, like I think we talked 155 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 3: last time about Bald's Leech Book, which says, hey, during 156 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 3: the dog days of summer, let's just cool it on 157 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 3: the blood letting for a few days, you know, not 158 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 3: do that during the dog days, though Balds specifically says 159 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 3: that it is because that is the time when venomous 160 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 3: things fly. 161 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 2: Okay, so sort of a mixture of observation of insects 162 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: and also nasma theory probably. 163 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 3: Maybe, yeah, But this one I thought was really interesting, 164 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 3: and we have sort of encountered shades of this before 165 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 3: in the other sources. Long mentions old beliefs about the 166 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 3: dangers of water during the dog days of summer, that 167 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 3: during this time liquids become foul or poisonous, and that 168 00:08:55,080 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 3: people should avoid bathing, swimming, or drinking water. And I 169 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 3: have a pretty mixed reaction to that. On one hand, 170 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 3: it is absolutely true, especially in the modern world, that 171 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 3: lots of water born and diarrheal diseases are more common 172 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 3: in the summer, and that's not just my intuition. I 173 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 3: checked to make sure that is correct, and that is 174 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 3: true according to the CDC. In several papers, I looked 175 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 3: at a host of different waterborne diseases surge in hot weather, 176 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 3: not all of them. I think it's especially maybe some 177 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 3: bacterial and more eukaryotic parasite diseases that surge during the summertime. 178 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 3: Summertime surges in waterborne diseases include everything from vibrio to 179 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 3: garda to E Coli. A bunch of different diseases there, 180 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 3: and this can be for a number of reasons. Bacterial 181 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 3: growth is usually accelerated in warm weather. Also, summertime changes 182 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 3: in rainfall can lead to increased risk in multiple ways. Actually, 183 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 3: I thought this interesting. Both drought leading to low water 184 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 3: levels and heavy rainfall leading to flooding can both increase 185 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 3: the risk of different waterborne pathogens. It's kind of counterintuitive, 186 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 3: but basically I think drought means low water, so pathogens 187 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 3: are more concentrated, there's less water to dilute them and 188 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 3: flush them downstream, and water's just more likely to become stagnant. 189 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 3: Whereas with heavy rainfall, like you have more original disease 190 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 3: sources like sewage and agricultural waste that are just getting 191 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 3: washed into untreated waterways. Also worth mentioning that I think 192 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 3: some summer waterborne disease risks go up just from increased exposure, 193 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 3: like people are getting in the water for recreational reasons. 194 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And that kind of ties into some of 195 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 2: the heat aggression and heat aggression adjacent ideas that we 196 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 2: discussed in previous episodes, like July fourth weekend being a 197 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: particularly deadly weekend, you know, in part and other holiday weekends, 198 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 2: you know, there might be a higher level of water 199 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 2: based incidents, and that could be that's one of the reasons, 200 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 2: just more people are out there. 201 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 202 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 2: Now. 203 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 3: On the other hand, like all that's true, but it 204 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 3: also seems like absolute madness to say that during the 205 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 3: hottest part of the year you should avoid water. This 206 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 3: is like, during the heat, people need water. So I 207 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 3: think this is just something that should make us grateful 208 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 3: if we are lucky enough to have access to clean 209 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 3: drinking water, and also even somewhat less importantly but still important, 210 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 3: access to like clean bathing facilities like chemically treated swimming pools, 211 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 3: which are not sterile, but they're a lot safer than 212 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 3: you know, swimming with other people in untreated water sources. 213 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 3: The unfortunate reality is that the hottest time of year 214 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 3: when we are most at risk of overheating and dehydration 215 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,359 Speaker 3: also usually happens to be the time when natural untreated 216 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 3: water sources are the most dangerous, at least from certain pathogen. Yeah. 217 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 2: Indeed, I mean you make a great point that if 218 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 2: you if you do have access to readily available inexpensive 219 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: or cheap or and it's so expensive inexpensive that it 220 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 2: basically seems free water for drinking, bathing, et cetera, then 221 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 2: you're in a pretty lucky spot historically speaking. And I 222 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 2: don't know looking into the future too. I mean, this 223 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 2: is this is not this is not something to take 224 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 2: for granted. So enjoy every glass you can get. 225 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, Cherish it, and remember that people have to 226 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 3: do things to make that happen. It is it is 227 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 3: a result of continue applied effort. 228 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, take take the freemen approach to it, and also 229 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 2: never cry, never, never weak good water. 230 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 3: So anyway, Long's major point in this paper is that 231 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 3: she's going to interrogate the traditional idea of where the 232 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 3: concept of the dog days of summer comes from. And now, 233 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 3: as I said earlier, I think I'm not convinced by 234 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 3: the argument she makes fully in the end, but I 235 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 3: think it's an interesting path to follow. Along the way, 236 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 3: so Long traces the regular and widely accepted story that 237 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 3: we've already talked about, that the hottest weeks of summer 238 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 3: are called the dog days because they began in the 239 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 3: ancient world in some ancient cultures, with the haliacal rising 240 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 3: of the dog star, which in turn got its name 241 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 3: because it was part of the constellation Canis Major and 242 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 3: was thought of as the hunting dog of the constellation 243 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 3: Orion and the mythic figure Orian. Therefore, traditional beliefs about 244 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 3: the Dog days trace back to this astrological origin and 245 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 3: to the coincidence that the stars rising happened to occur 246 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 3: at the hottest time of year in the northern hemisphere. 247 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 3: So what are Long's doubts about this narrative. I can't 248 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 3: explore every single thing she brings up, but I'll try 249 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 3: to do some of the major strands. One thing she 250 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 3: talks about is that the calendar doesn't line up exactly right. 251 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 3: This varies, of course by latitude and time period because 252 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 3: the rising of Sirius generally happens later in the year 253 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 3: the further north you go, and also because it is 254 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 3: very gradually across the centuries, getting later in the calendar 255 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 3: year for everyone in the northern hemisphere, so the ancients 256 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 3: had an earlier rising date than we do at the 257 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 3: same latitude. But Long argues that the astronomical event does 258 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 3: not reliably coincide with the hottest part of summer for 259 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 3: some cultures that have a concept of the dog days, 260 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 3: leading those cultures, particularly in Northern Europe, to sometimes seem 261 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 3: to disentangle the dog days of heat from anything having 262 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 3: to do with the stars. And we've already talked about this, 263 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 3: like sometimes what we think of as the dog days 264 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 3: in July is not actually related to when the star 265 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 3: rises where. 266 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 2: You are right. 267 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 3: Also, she charts many examples of linguistically and historically related 268 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 3: cultures at least bordering in which the rising of Sirius 269 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 3: has no particular association with dogs, or in some cases 270 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 3: no association with heat, or in some cases with no 271 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 3: association with either one. Touching on some examples we've already 272 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 3: talked about, she mentions Persian and Hindu sources Sirius is 273 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 3: thought of as a positive water bringing star in these 274 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 3: culture is much like in ancient Egypt. And she talks 275 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 3: about how in some Hindu traditions, Sirius is associated with 276 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 3: a dog who provides help to the god Indra, with 277 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 3: epithets that translate to something like water producing dog or 278 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 3: in other possible references in one hymn, the heavenly hound. 279 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 3: And so, in Long's words, the Hindu serious is quote 280 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 3: associated not with midsummer heat but with the blessing of water, 281 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 3: which seems very contrary. That's like almost totally contrasted with 282 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 3: the idea that it's like where the meaning complex is 283 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 3: hot times, oppressive heat, drought, don't touch the water because 284 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 3: it's poisonous. You know, dog's bad, that kind of thing. 285 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. 286 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 3: Now, regarding Greek traditions specifically, Long argues that the association 287 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 3: triangle between serious O'rian and hot weather is less clear 288 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 3: than is sometimes supposed. For example, you know, in part 289 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 3: one we talked about in the references to Sirius or 290 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 3: the dog star in the Iliad by Homer, But she 291 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 3: points out correctly that Homer's passages about the balefulness of 292 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 3: the dog star actually do not mention hot weather. They 293 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 3: do say like summer or autumn. They identify a season, 294 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 3: but they don't say anything about heat. They only mention 295 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 3: fever and bad fortune like omens of bad fortune and 296 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 3: in passing. She also points out that there are multiple 297 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 3: Greek myths of about dogs being transformed into stars that 298 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 3: are totally you know, that are just different stories, you know, 299 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 3: different dogs from mythology and maybe different stars. One account 300 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 3: comes in a story that I don't think I was 301 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 3: really familiar with before. I've probably read some version of 302 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 3: it but forgotten about it. But I thought this story 303 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 3: was interesting. It's the story of Ecarius and his daughter Ariginy. 304 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 3: I thought this was interesting because it combined some elements 305 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 3: of like the classic hospitality lesson myth, and also combines 306 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 3: that with with some elements of Prometheus as well. So anyway, 307 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 3: the story goes that Ecarius was a man who welcomed 308 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 3: the god Dionysus, the god of wine, into Athens, and 309 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 3: showed him hospitality. In return, Dionysus taught Ecarius how to 310 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 3: grow grapes and make wines. This is a kind of 311 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 3: Promethean introducing of cultural knowledge to the humans from the 312 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 3: gods teaching him how to make wine. But there's a 313 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 3: danger that comes with this knowledge, because Acarius then makes 314 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 3: the first wine of humans, and when he gives it 315 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 3: to the shepherds who work for him, they drink the wine, 316 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 3: they become drunk, and this leads them to become confused. 317 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 3: They think that Acarius has poisoned them somehow, and they 318 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 3: murder him and bury bury his body in secret, which 319 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 3: also connects to the idea I think of sort of 320 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 3: Dionysian madness. But then the story goes that Acarius's daughter 321 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 3: Ariginy is looking for her father and her faithful dog Mira, 322 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 3: leads her to her father's grave, and then upon doing so, 323 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 3: when the grave is discovered, the dog is transformed into 324 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 3: a star, though I think not necessarily serious. 325 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: Okay, beautifully weird. I have made wine for you. The 326 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 2: wine works as intended, presumably, and has murdered for it. 327 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 3: In another story there, I'm just going to read directly 328 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 3: from Long's telling here. In another story, quote the wonderful 329 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 3: hound lee Lapse, who never failed to run down its prey. 330 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,360 Speaker 3: It's like a fool proof hunting dog. Leelaps, who never 331 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 3: failed to run down its prey. Was borrowed by infitrion 332 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 3: to hunt down the two messian fox, but the fox 333 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 3: was also magical and could never be caught. To resolve 334 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 3: the dilemma thus created, Zeus decreed that the fox should 335 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 3: be turned into a stone, the dog into a star. 336 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 3: That solves that. 337 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 2: Yep, yep, good good jobs cleared that one up. 338 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, So anyway, Long goes on to a section where 339 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 3: she summarizes basically her view of the problems with the 340 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 3: traditional etymology of this phrase the dog days of summer. 341 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 3: So again to run through these, like, actual climate conditions 342 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 3: can't really explain why the rising of a bright star 343 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 3: would be associated with the hottest weather of the year, 344 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 3: like they don't always line up, especially at the latitudes 345 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 3: of some cultures that invoke the dog day, and actual 346 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 3: climate conditions also can't explain why in one tradition the 347 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 3: star brings heat and in another it brings cooling rains 348 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 3: or winds. That to me doesn't seem like a really 349 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,719 Speaker 3: insurmountable problem, because you can just imagine sort of cultural drift, 350 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 3: like this is an idea. It's being transmitted down the 351 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 3: ages into places and times where it's no longer it 352 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 3: no longer has the astrological relevance it once did. 353 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 2: Right, right end. Seasons are complex and they have different 354 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 2: things going on in them, and you could have one 355 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 2: thing and yet the yearning for the other thing. 356 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 3: Oh totally yeah. 357 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 358 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 3: Another reason she gives is that no existing Greek myth 359 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 3: explains the rationale for calling serious the dog star or 360 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 3: saying that Sirius is Orion's dog. Though, as we've discussed 361 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 3: on the show before, a lot of Greek mythology simply 362 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 3: never got written down in a form that survived to 363 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 3: modern times. It doesn't mean no such myth existed. It 364 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 3: might have been common knowledge or but didn't happen to 365 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 3: make it into a popular book. Might have been, it did, 366 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 3: but that book is just not something that survived into 367 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 3: modern times. 368 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 2: Right. 369 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 3: Another interesting tension she mentions is that, you know, as 370 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 3: we've talked about, in Hindu traditions, the dog is a 371 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 3: producer of water, and in Western traditions, western European traditions 372 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 3: going back to the Greeks, the dog days are associated 373 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 3: with warnings to avoid water. So, as I said, I'm 374 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 3: not really convinced of Long's argument against the mainstream etomology here, 375 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 3: but she does introduce a very interesting contrasting idea, and 376 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 3: it is that quote, the primary and crucial relationship in 377 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 3: the complex of beliefs we know as dog days is 378 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 3: not between a particular star and the weather, or even 379 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:54,719 Speaker 3: between dogs and the weather, but between dogs and disease. 380 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 3: So again, I can't detail her entire case here, but 381 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 3: I'll mention a few things. One thing she starts talking 382 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 3: about is how human attitudes toward dogs have long been 383 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 3: profoundly ambivalent. You know, dogs are both man's best friend 384 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 3: and in Long's words, quote emblems of filth and disrepute. 385 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 3: And that's absolutely true. And she makes a very convincing case, 386 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 3: noting a lot of different phrases and languages, and also 387 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 3: citing a couple of other scholars who have documented this extensively. 388 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 3: I mean, just think how many cultural expressions there are 389 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 3: about dogs in the extremes of both directions. Dogs as 390 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 3: the most loyable, the most loyable, the most loyal and 391 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 3: lovable companion a person can have, but also as untrustworthy, vicious, unclean, 392 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 3: as kind of an honorless scavenger, you dirty dog, that 393 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 3: sort of thing. 394 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that is interesting. Yeah, Like the dog has 395 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 2: such a privileged place for many people out there their 396 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 2: dog is like the most important relationship in their life. 397 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 2: And yet it is also to call someone a dog 398 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 2: can be a di or insult. 399 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, in fact, I think it's even even 400 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 3: without any kind of modifier, doesn't even have to be 401 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 3: you dirty dog. Like a dog in conversational English means 402 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 3: a bad example of whatever kind of thing it is. Yeah, 403 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 3: like I think about in the scene in the Sopranos, 404 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 3: like the pump and dump scene, your stalk's a dog. 405 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 3: But yeah, so as such we have this this ambivalence, 406 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 3: this extreme in both directions, appearing in the astrological dog 407 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 3: weather lore. So you've got the dog as a bringer 408 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,199 Speaker 3: of refreshing, replenishing rains and cooling wind, maybe as a 409 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 3: helper of Indra to bring the rains that you know 410 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 3: that help the world. But we've also got the dog 411 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 3: as a bringer of heat, drought, poison, sickness and death. 412 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 3: And of course the latter is true as an association 413 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 3: in the Middle Ages, in Europe and beyond, when the 414 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 3: dog days are said to be a time of infection, 415 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,239 Speaker 3: poison and disease ruling the world. And she points to 416 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 3: an interesting sort of linguistic complex that I was not 417 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 3: previously familiar with. I think it's mentioned on the Wikipedia 418 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 3: page for dog days. Actually, she gets into the idea 419 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 3: of the Swedish and Finnish times in the middle of 420 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 3: the year known as the rotten days or the rot month. 421 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 3: The Swedish and Finnish languages have terms for these. It's 422 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 3: defined by it's the time defined by when things rot fast. 423 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 3: And you could come to see how that would be 424 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 3: the name for a time of year, because like rot 425 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 3: is highly it's a life and death issue, it's highly 426 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 3: relevant to our lives even economically. There's a close mental 427 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 3: analogy between disease and rot and like genuine links as well, 428 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 3: like both are caused by microbial life. Eating rotten things 429 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 3: can make you sick, and so. 430 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And really you know when I when 431 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 2: I think about the sensations that I get, like walking 432 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 2: around out during the hottest days of the summer, I 433 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,239 Speaker 2: mean one of them is the smell of things that 434 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: are rotting. Yeah, you know, it's like you you know, 435 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 2: be it like so some mix of you know, garbage cans, 436 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 2: uh you, dog feces, you know, squirrels that have died 437 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 2: and so forth. You know, just the ambient rot and 438 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 2: it's going to maybe be a little more fragrant on 439 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 2: those days. 440 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 3: Interesting framing question. When you smell the smell of rot, 441 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 3: do you think of that as death or do you 442 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 3: think of that as life? 443 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. It kind of has that place in between, right, 444 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 2: because it is it's kind of a fecundity that that 445 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 2: you're sensing, you know, like you know that, yes, something's rotten, 446 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 2: but something's living high on that rot like stuff is happening. 447 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 3: It's like when you see a tree covered in ivy, 448 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 3: it's like, you know, it's kind of death for the tree, 449 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 3: but also looks so vibrant and a lot you know, 450 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 3: is so green all over. 451 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, you see a bunch of mushrooms underneath an old 452 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 2: tree and you know that's not a good sign for 453 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 2: that tree, but pretty big day for the mushrooms. 454 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 3: Now, we can all think of plenty of nasty associations 455 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 3: between dogs and disease. These go back, you know, thousands 456 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 3: of years in literature. You know, dogs dogs feasting on 457 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 3: corpses and as scavengers and bringers of disease and all 458 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 3: that sort of thing. But there are also plenty of 459 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 3: associations going the other way to read from Long here 460 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 3: quote it is a matter of record that Asclepias, this 461 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 3: is in the Greek context, Asclepias relied heavily upon dogs 462 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 3: in his treatment of various ailments. Indeed, his principles flourished 463 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 3: today in popular beliefs that dogs can heal sores by 464 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 3: licking them. Remember this actually came up when we did 465 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 3: a series on the licking of wounds, including the alleged 466 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 3: healing properties of dog licks. I think this was time 467 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 3: last year. 468 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I did a quick search, just put in licking 469 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,120 Speaker 2: stuff to blow and nothing useful came up. But yeah, 470 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 2: it was sometime in the next last couple of. 471 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 3: Years for sure. But anyway, to continue with Long, so 472 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 3: she mentions a scleepyis having dog's lick sores, but also 473 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 3: the belief that quote the hair of a dog will 474 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 3: cure a wound inflicted by that dog, and that many 475 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 3: illnesses can be banished by quote giving them to the dog, 476 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 3: that is, by incorporating the hair or the or other 477 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 3: bodily fetish of the sufferer in the food of the 478 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 3: family hound. I don't think i'd heard of that last 479 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 3: one before. 480 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 2: But this is where we would we get the hair 481 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 2: of the dog that bitched. The idea of like, if 482 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 2: you're hungover, you should have a little more alcohol, you 483 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 2: should have a little more of the thing that's making 484 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 2: you feel bad. 485 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 3: Well, that's one of the two things she mentions. Yeah, 486 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 3: so like a wound, a bite from a dog can 487 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 3: be healed by hair from that dog. Yeah, so that's 488 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 3: also like alcohol will cure the hangover, which that that's 489 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 3: not a good idea, folks, it's not good. 490 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 2: There's a rich association there in magical thinking, like getting 491 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 2: into the old ideas of like treating the weapon to 492 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 2: treat the wound and so forth. 493 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 3: Exactly, Yes, the kind of sympathetic magic. But then that's 494 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 3: one of the things she says. The other thing she 495 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 3: says is that you had this belief, based on some 496 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 3: Greek medicine, going back to Aesclepias, that you can heal 497 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 3: people by taking some kind of peace or representation of 498 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 3: the person or of their illness, and you know the 499 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 3: person who is sick, and you give that to the 500 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 3: dog and the dog's food, and that somehow it transfers 501 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 3: the illness to the dog, which maybe the dog can 502 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 3: deal with it better or something. But anyway, so while 503 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 3: you've got Asclepias and his healing dogs, licking wounds and 504 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 3: absorbing illnesses and all that. Long says that even more 505 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 3: interesting in Greek thought is the goddess Hecate, who I 506 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 3: think has come up on the show before. But hekt 507 00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 3: is a very interesting figure, sitting at a crossroads, you 508 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 3: might say, of lots of different beliefs. So she was 509 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 3: associated actually with crossroads, but also with the moon, with 510 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 3: night time, sometimes with ghosts and witchcraft. 511 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, three faces, three phases, looking in the different directions. Yeah. 512 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 3: So Long highlights other attributes of Hecate. Mentions that sometimes 513 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 3: she's thought of as like a crone figure, or as 514 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 3: the old Moon, though I've seen representations of her where 515 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 3: she looks youthful. Sometimes she's thought of as a primeval 516 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 3: earth mother, as the goddess who grants the power of witchcraft, 517 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 3: as the patron of souls who could not yet leave 518 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 3: the earth. I think this might be the partial association 519 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 3: with ghosts, though I'm not sure if she's the most 520 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 3: associated with ghosts of great goddesses. I think there's another 521 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 3: figure whose name I'm forgetting right now. But one thing 522 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 3: that's interesting that Long brings up is that Hekaty was 523 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 3: sometimes thought of, is the goddess who represents both disease 524 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 3: and the curing of disease, much like the dog, and 525 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 3: fitting with that ambivalent patronage, her avatar was the dog 526 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 3: often represented by the dog, and Long talks about how 527 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 3: she thinks that the tradition of stories in which dogs 528 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 3: are able to see ghosts or in which ghostly spirits 529 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 3: are represented by dogs, may trace back to this link 530 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 3: between dogs and Hecate, the goddess of ghosts. 531 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we've also done episodes where we talked 532 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 2: about the dog as psychopomp as a guide from this 533 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 2: world into the world beyond death. So yeah, the dog 534 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 2: is well acquainted with all human movements, be they in 535 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 2: this world or were into the next. 536 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 3: But anyway, this finally brings us to the point the 537 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 3: alternate theory that Long is advancing about where this complex 538 00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 3: of meaning comes from for the Dog Days, and she 539 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 3: explains it thusly quote, I submit that the same is 540 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 3: true of the season called dog Days, a time when 541 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 3: the healing function of Hecate is suspended and the agents 542 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 3: of infection are given free reiin. So that's her idea. Ultimately, 543 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 3: it's this association of the goddess Hecate with dogs that 544 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 3: Hekat would would have a time rising and a time 545 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 3: falling beneath the earth for a time. Humans on Earth 546 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 3: are just going to be left without the positive aspects 547 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 3: of Hecate's protection and the curative form of her sort 548 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 3: of dog healing magic, so that we will be vulnerable 549 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 3: to this season of disease and poison and rot in 550 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 3: the summertime quote until the healing aspect of Hekat is 551 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 3: restored by its disappearance beneath the horizon for another year. So, 552 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 3: I don't know, it feels like the connective tissue I 553 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 3: would say feels too loose for me to be convinced 554 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 3: by this. But I love all the bringing together things. 555 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 3: And it's hard to say, really when you go back 556 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 3: and try to trace the origins of ideas like this, 557 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 3: because a lot of it is just kind of murky. 558 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 3: It's coming out of You can find these stews of 559 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 3: complex interacting cultural imagery and associations, but you don't always 560 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 3: know exactly where an idea comes from or why. 561 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, on one hand, I'm always a 562 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 2: little hesitant of a theory that really hones in on 563 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 2: one particular thing to explain something. But I know, we 564 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 2: could also see this is not merely saying this is 565 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 2: the origin, but more like this is the amplifier, you know, 566 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 2: in the same way you know, talking about you know, 567 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 2: emerging ideas in the last episode, and how you can 568 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 2: have like something that's brought up in the academic world, 569 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 2: but then it's picked up in the popular media. It's amplified, 570 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 2: and then it's kind of codified that way, and we 571 00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 2: see that and of course recorded writings as well. So 572 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, I guess I'm with you. 573 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 2: I'm I'm I'm hesitant to put too much stock into it, 574 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 2: but it's an interesting concept, to be sure. 575 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is a swirling set of influences that make 576 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,239 Speaker 3: an idea take hold. There might be one moment of 577 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 3: inspiration when a phrase is born from someone's pen and 578 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 3: somebody else reads that, but like what makes a phrase 579 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 3: catch on and become popular among people That might also 580 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 3: play on the phrase exciting like existing associations that people 581 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 3: are already prone to latch onto, if that makes any sense. 582 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And certainly, like we've been saying, the 583 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 2: dog has long been there beside us ready to receive 584 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 2: various associations, be they good or bad, be they deep 585 00:33:45,920 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 2: or or fairly mundane, and shall Yeah, all right, Well, 586 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 2: for the remainder of this episode and this series, I 587 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 2: want to talk mostly about Cone and the Barbarian. I 588 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 2: can't remember if I actually mentioned this on Mike in 589 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 2: the last episode, but you were talking about the twinkling 590 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 2: of the dog star Sirius, and it connected with something 591 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 2: in my memory. I haven't actually seen nineteen eighty two's 592 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 2: Cone in the Barbarian in a while, but it made 593 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 2: me think about one of the scenes near the very end. 594 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 2: This is when Fulsa Doom, the warlord sorcerer cult leader, 595 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 2: the chief villain of the picture, played with overflowing villainous 596 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 2: charisma by James Earl Jones, is speaking atop this kind 597 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 2: of Ziggorot type temple to whole crowds of his followers, 598 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 2: people with torches and candles in the night. Really impressive scene, 599 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 2: great cinematography and great lighting, and he's a rowl them 600 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 2: towards some apocalyptic culmination of this death cult. Joe, I 601 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 2: know you remember this thing. 602 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 3: I think I think Conan's doing some stealth roles in 603 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 3: this very moment. 604 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, Conan is moving in for the kill and 605 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 2: that's this is going to be the big conclusion of 606 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 2: the picture. But yeah, Fulca Doom is getting very worked up. 607 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 2: And I'm just going to read a bit from a 608 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 2: quote from the film. He says, purging is at last 609 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 2: at hand. Day of Doom is here. All that is evil, 610 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 2: all their allies, your parents, your leaders, those who would 611 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 2: call themselves your judges, those who have lied and corrupted 612 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 2: the earth. They shall all be cleansed. You, my children, 613 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 2: are the water that will wash away all that has 614 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 2: gone before. In your hand, you hold my light, the 615 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 2: gleam in the eye of set. This flame will burn 616 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 2: away the darkness, burn you the way to paradise. All right, Yeah, 617 00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 2: pretty great stuff. Yeah. So you have like the twinkling 618 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,800 Speaker 2: toward the candlelight playing out before doom like an inverse 619 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 2: night sky, you know, the invocation of something connected to 620 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 2: Egyptian mythology, which I'll get into a single eye. The 621 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 2: coming season of Doom. Everything lines up rather well, at 622 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 2: least thematically, with the dog Days as we've been discussing 623 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,399 Speaker 2: them and obsessions over serious. But of course the big 624 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 2: question is there an actual connection here and I would 625 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 2: say in a roundabout way there is in a way 626 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 2: that is fitting for part four in a series. Okay, 627 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 2: So the simplest way to start breaking this down, I 628 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 2: think is to sort of formulate the question. Could Thulsa 629 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 2: Doom who is again fictional character and fictional stories, So 630 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 2: do't don't get too bit out of shape here. Could 631 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 2: he be referring at all to the star Sirius when 632 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 2: he's talking about the eye of set So let's let's 633 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 2: break it down. So, first of all, who is this 634 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 2: set and in general world in the real world, When 635 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 2: we talk about set or Seth or Sutec, we are 636 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 2: talking about the ancient Egyptian mythological figure, a god who 637 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 2: is the brother an enemy of Osiris and the rival 638 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 2: of Horace. 639 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 3: Is set or Seth, the figure who I believe kills 640 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 3: and dismembers Osiris. 641 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, among among the various things that's he's known 642 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 2: for these tales in which he kills and dismembers Osiris. 643 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 3: I think he leaves his body parts along different parts 644 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 3: of the Nile. 645 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And everything has to be like reassembled and resurrected, 646 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 2: and in that resurrection Osiris becomes you know, the god 647 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 2: of the underworld, the god of the afterlife, and really 648 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 2: comes into his full power. We've talked about Set on 649 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 2: the show before, and I'm going to keep referring to 650 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,839 Speaker 2: him as Set here just because that's that ties more 651 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 2: into the Cone in the barbarian association here. But his 652 00:37:55,040 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 2: iconography general generally represents a particular sort of mysterious and 653 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,840 Speaker 2: likely imaginary animal. He's associated with different animals, but a 654 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 2: lot of his iconography features the Seth animal or the 655 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 2: set animal that is probably an imaginary creature, but there 656 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 2: has been some speculation that the iconography might refer to 657 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 2: a creature that is now extinct. We went into this 658 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 2: on an episode of years and years ago of stuff 659 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 2: to blow your mind. 660 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 3: I barely remember this now, yeah, but I am familiar 661 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,280 Speaker 3: with the phrase Seth animal. 662 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:34,320 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. Geraldine Pinch, in her book on her Encyclopedia 663 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 2: of Ancient Dyptient Mythology, describes it as sinister in nature, 664 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 2: and I guess it is sinister, though I don't know. 665 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 2: Sometimes it looks kind of sweet, you know. It's kind 666 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 2: of like a snouty, kind of like a dog with 667 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 2: a little bitty trunk sort of a thing. I don't know, 668 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 2: I don't always interpret it as evil so much. 669 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 3: I just looked it up to refresh my memory. It 670 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 3: looks kind of like a cross between a greyhound, an anteater, 671 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 3: and a rabbit. Yeah, but with like a scepter for 672 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 3: a tape, a very straight tail with the club at the. 673 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 2: End, right right. And it's been a while since I've 674 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 2: got into it. That's one of the reasons that some 675 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,760 Speaker 2: have speculated like, well, this this could be a real animal. 676 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 2: Maybe it was an animal that simply you know, went 677 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 2: extinct and there was just you know, records of it 678 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 2: in ancient times. So yeah, I look that episode in 679 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,919 Speaker 2: them up in the archives if you're interested. But as 680 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,280 Speaker 2: with all the deities of ancient each of the stories 681 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 2: and meanings regarding this particular entity Set are complex and 682 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,400 Speaker 2: they're subject to change over time. But Set is largely 683 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 2: associated with violence and disorder, with sandstorms and flash floods, 684 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 2: and he is portrayed as the great adversary in many 685 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 2: of these tellings, certainly you know, with the slaying and 686 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 2: the dismemberment of Osiris. In this he is the chaotic 687 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 2: force that brings down an incarnation of order. He is 688 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 2: a god of foreign deserts who brings down the god 689 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 2: of the Nile Valley. And of course again Osiris ends 690 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 2: up being reconstituted as the king of the underworld, and 691 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:06,359 Speaker 2: this is a vital transformation in ancient Egyptian myth. Subsequently, 692 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,319 Speaker 2: set battles Horace, a son of Osiris, and in the 693 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 2: process he blinds Horace or tears out one or both 694 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 2: of his eyes, and these two will eventually heal, bringing 695 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 2: about the eye of Horace as a protective symbol. And 696 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 2: then Set also suffers a grievous injury in this battle, 697 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 2: loses a testicle or both testicles. These two will regenerate, 698 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 2: and all of this becomes symbolically important in various rights 699 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 2: of Egyptian magic. And then by the Greek and Roman period, 700 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 2: Set is like outright vilified. The Greeks end up associating 701 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 2: him with the monster Typhon and this and then they 702 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 2: invoke Seth Typhon in curses that are designed to kill 703 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 2: enemies and to drive lovers apart from each other. You know, 704 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 2: you know all these various curse scrolls and so forth. 705 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 2: And I believe this is contained in the Coptic magical 706 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,399 Speaker 2: papyri compiled from the fourth through the twelfth century. See 707 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 2: but this doesn't mean that Set or Set is universally 708 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 2: an evil entity either. So again he's chaos, he's violence, 709 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 2: but he's a necessary defender of the sun barge, which 710 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 2: is key to the sun being able to rise and 711 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 2: set each day. And his reckless actions pinch stresses do 712 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 2: in the end bring about positive outcomes, like the establishment 713 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 2: of Osiris as the god of the underworld. So you know, 714 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,280 Speaker 2: in a way, it's like you have to have a villain, 715 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 2: you have to have some and you don't have to 716 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 2: have this opposing force. 717 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 3: Oh kind of makes me think about how like in Christianity, 718 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 3: like Judas is vilified, but the actions of Judas are 719 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 3: necessary for the story of Christ to be completed. 720 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So you know, ancient ancient peoples have the 721 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 2: same sort of contemplations about, you know, how the world 722 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 2: works and how awful things occur, but sometimes something good 723 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 2: comes out of it. And again, you know, I think 724 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,880 Speaker 2: we also have to have to remember the importance of 725 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 2: the inundation of the Nile, and you know with that, 726 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 2: you know, flooding, it can be destructive, but it can 727 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,400 Speaker 2: it also brings about life, and we can compare that 728 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:24,240 Speaker 2: back to what we said earlier about a rock. But anyway, 729 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 2: while the eye of Horace and the eye of Ray 730 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 2: or Raw are both important symbols in ancient Egyptian mythology, 731 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 2: the same cannot be said for any eye of Set. Again, 732 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 2: the testicles of Set, maybe, but not the eyes. Furthermore, 733 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 2: we should note the cosmological connections here, so as previously noted, 734 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 2: sop Debt is associated with Sirius Set or Set, for 735 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,880 Speaker 2: his part, is sometimes associated with the planet Mercury, and 736 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 2: sometimes associated with the constellation the fore leg of Ox, 737 00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,840 Speaker 2: which roughly corresponds to the Big Dipper. But not Serious, Okay, 738 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 2: but the Mercury connection is kind of interesting. I was 739 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 2: reading a little bit more about this. The planet Mercury 740 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 2: does gleam, if we're going to talk about the gleaming 741 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,799 Speaker 2: of the eye have set, but it is an elusive 742 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,760 Speaker 2: star at a spot. So it's actually the thirteenth brightest 743 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,759 Speaker 2: object in the sky. The top five are the Sun, 744 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:24,319 Speaker 2: of course, the moon, Venus, Jupiter, and then Serious. And 745 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 2: I was reading an article titled Mercury at its Best 746 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,360 Speaker 2: in the Evening Sky from twenty twelve in Astronomy Magazine 747 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 2: by Richard Talcott, and he points out that despite its 748 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:39,839 Speaker 2: ranking again thirteenth brightest object in the sky at night, 749 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,680 Speaker 2: that's still pretty darn bright. That's still I mean, think 750 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,440 Speaker 2: of all the stars in the sky, right be a 751 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:50,239 Speaker 2: number thirteen. That ain't nothing. But Mercury can be rather 752 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 2: elusive because it never climbs that high it orbits closer 753 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 2: to the Sun than any other planet. So from our perspective, 754 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,439 Speaker 2: it never ventures much beyond the glare of the Sun 755 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 2: and never appears fully against a totally a totally dark sky. 756 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 3: Okay, so if we if we are to see Mercury 757 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 3: in the night sky, it's probably going to be near 758 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 3: dawn or dusk. 759 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's again it's going to be a 760 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 2: little harder to pinpoint. I've heard that like for for 761 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 2: a lot of stargazers, it's like the trick is to 762 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,280 Speaker 2: find Venus first and then use that to find Mercury. 763 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,960 Speaker 2: And uh, I don't remember all the details that may 764 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,239 Speaker 2: also be dependent, as a lot of these things are 765 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,879 Speaker 2: dependent on depending on when and where you're doing your 766 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:37,600 Speaker 2: your stargazing. But within the context of Conan the Barbarian, 767 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,800 Speaker 2: and sure, I'm willing to accept that the eye of 768 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 2: Set could be the planet Mercury. But I guess it 769 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,719 Speaker 2: could also just as well be serious, because we're not 770 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,680 Speaker 2: really dealing with a mythologically accurate idea of Set anyway. 771 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 2: On top of the of the you know, and in 772 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 2: the context of the film, this god is being invoked 773 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,040 Speaker 2: by a warlord, sorcerer and cult leader. He may be 774 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 2: bending things to his needs anyway. 775 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, and what what do we see him transform into. Well, 776 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 3: it's not the set animal. It's a It's a snake. 777 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 2: It's a snake. There's a clear association here with a snake. 778 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 2: And uh, I haven't I'm not super well read with 779 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:20,440 Speaker 2: Robert E. Howard, the creator and originator of the Conan stories. Uh, 780 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,239 Speaker 2: but but I've read a few here and there, and 781 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 2: it was digging a little bit more into his lore 782 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,239 Speaker 2: and the way his lore sort of like bleeds into 783 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 2: some of the other mythos weird fiction stuff of the 784 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 2: of the day, but within the context of his stories 785 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,920 Speaker 2: and related fiction, Set is an ancient Lovecraftian serpent god 786 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,680 Speaker 2: taking and taking on this overtly sinister vibe that is 787 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:51,319 Speaker 2: associated with like the Leviathan and Satan. Uh and in 788 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:57,399 Speaker 2: the Kolkuthulu RPGs Malice Monstorum set is associated with the 789 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:02,800 Speaker 2: Egyptomania flavored mythos Alter God niro lethotepe so a highly 790 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:07,000 Speaker 2: fictionalized take on set slash seth here clearly inspired by 791 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 2: Egyptian mythology, but set within this fictional Hyborian age, you know, 792 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,319 Speaker 2: the time before the oceans drank Atlantis and also presumably 793 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,120 Speaker 2: before the rise of ancient Egyptian civilization as we know. 794 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:24,080 Speaker 3: It a fictional kind of fantasy prehistory. 795 00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:29,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, but as we previously discussed, fascination with ancient 796 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 2: Egyptian concepts and adoption of its symbols and ideas has 797 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,719 Speaker 2: taken place as long as other nations have come into 798 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 2: contact with it, and we definitely see its influence on 799 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,640 Speaker 2: new religious movements and of course related strains of ufology 800 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,040 Speaker 2: from the last one hundred years or so. You know, 801 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 2: we talked about the Syrian ancient astronaut thing in the 802 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:56,239 Speaker 2: last episode, and that was certainly extrapolated by Temple and 803 00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:00,479 Speaker 2: other authors into something that influenced Egyptian culture as well. 804 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,239 Speaker 3: Oh, of course they always make it there. It's like 805 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,200 Speaker 3: ancient astronauts they had something to do with. 806 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, how could the pyramids be it has to be 807 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 2: a right. So yeah, so obviously you're going to find 808 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:18,319 Speaker 2: various Egyptian ancient Egyptian ideas weaving their way through the 809 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:23,279 Speaker 2: world of new religious movements and also occultism, and so 810 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:28,040 Speaker 2: in the so called left hand path strain of occultism 811 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:33,320 Speaker 2: and ceremonial magic, various connections are made between Set and Satan, 812 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:38,040 Speaker 2: fusing of Western and Eastern esoteric ideas in the early 813 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,480 Speaker 2: twentieth century, and amid the tangle of contributions from the 814 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,200 Speaker 2: likes of Aleister Crowley and Anton Levy, there are at 815 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:50,799 Speaker 2: least a couple of offshoots from these two individuals, you know, 816 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:57,040 Speaker 2: religious and occultist movements that do end up invoking Set 817 00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,040 Speaker 2: or Set in an interesting manner. So, first of all, 818 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:05,200 Speaker 2: you have the Limic occultist Kenneth Grant, who founded the 819 00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 2: Typhonian Order, drawing on the Limic and even Lovecraftian concepts 820 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:15,359 Speaker 2: with a definite serious slash set focus. So it does 821 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:21,320 Speaker 2: seem to come together in his writings and his religious thought. 822 00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:26,080 Speaker 2: And then we also have Michael Okino, an American political 823 00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:30,280 Speaker 2: scientist and military officer and also a member of Anton 824 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:35,040 Speaker 2: LaVey's Church of Satan who ended up leaving the Church 825 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:36,920 Speaker 2: of Satan, or at least after the Church of Satan 826 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,239 Speaker 2: founded the Temple of Set. And I don't know that 827 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,240 Speaker 2: his idea is concerned serious at all, but the eye 828 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,080 Speaker 2: of Set does factor into his writings and into his work. 829 00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:49,320 Speaker 2: Is a kind of opposite of the eye of Horace. 830 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:56,040 Speaker 2: And Akino claimed to have communicated with Set and claimed 831 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,160 Speaker 2: that the eye of Set, or it's the way he 832 00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,480 Speaker 2: discussed the eye of Set was that was kind of 833 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 2: a representation of awakening to the left hand path. Like 834 00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,239 Speaker 2: I'm you know, drawing in these various ideas of individual 835 00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:14,120 Speaker 2: growth and expansion of consciousness and so forth. But ideas 836 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,320 Speaker 2: like this really do in a way echo these older 837 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,160 Speaker 2: traditions involving serious or some of them that we've been discussing, 838 00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,840 Speaker 2: the idea that there are particular astronomical bodies that influence 839 00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,600 Speaker 2: our minds, our souls or personalities in some way. And 840 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,480 Speaker 2: I guess within the so in this sort of these 841 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,040 Speaker 2: sorts of movements that are highly focused on the individual, 842 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,400 Speaker 2: it's kind of like make yourself a satellite dish and 843 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,480 Speaker 2: a tune yourself to this star or to this you know, 844 00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,719 Speaker 2: astronomical influence. So getting into the weeds a little bit there, 845 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,400 Speaker 2: but my main point is that, Okay, at least in 846 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,440 Speaker 2: these two cases we do see some some serious set synergy. 847 00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:58,120 Speaker 2: We also see the invocation of the eye of set. 848 00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,200 Speaker 2: And then that brings us back to the Conan the 849 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:05,000 Speaker 2: Barbarian Script, which was of course famously first a really 850 00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,960 Speaker 2: crazy script written by Oliver Stone that I think was 851 00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,360 Speaker 2: like set in a post apocalyptic future with armies of 852 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,319 Speaker 2: mutants and all sorts of crazy elements. And then you 853 00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:19,240 Speaker 2: get the John Milius script, which takes everything back into 854 00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,000 Speaker 2: instead of into a future and imagine future, takes it 855 00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:28,040 Speaker 2: back into an imagined fantasy past. So I would assume, 856 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,560 Speaker 2: and I don't know for sure on this, but I'm 857 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,160 Speaker 2: wondering if John Millius is not the one who then 858 00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:37,880 Speaker 2: directly brings in some of the flavor, some of the language, 859 00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:42,520 Speaker 2: some of these ideas from twentieth century occultism, as he's 860 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:49,400 Speaker 2: bringing this Hyborian set cult, this death cult to life 861 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:51,360 Speaker 2: for nineteen eighties audiences. 862 00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:55,839 Speaker 3: Interesting. Yeah, in the writings of Roberty Howard, does it 863 00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:00,719 Speaker 3: have this cult element because the movie Cult feels more 864 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:02,600 Speaker 3: like a post sixties experience. 865 00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,560 Speaker 2: It really does. And I think that this is from 866 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:07,799 Speaker 2: what I know of Milius in his like his own 867 00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,760 Speaker 2: religious views. I think he had always identified as a 868 00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,680 Speaker 2: is some sort of pagan like he identified with certain 869 00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:18,960 Speaker 2: pagan belief systems. And and yeah, it does feel like 870 00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,080 Speaker 2: a very much like a post sixties kind of commentary 871 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,479 Speaker 2: on charismatic leaders and the idea of what a cult 872 00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,839 Speaker 2: might be. Fusing those ideas with this idea of more 873 00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:32,440 Speaker 2: of a Roberty Howard like sorcerer or warlord. 874 00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,520 Speaker 3: It almost feels like, you know, what if there'd been 875 00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:40,040 Speaker 3: somebody there to behead Charles Manson exactly. 876 00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:44,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, or you know, you keep folks from drinking 877 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,320 Speaker 2: the kool aid or any number of tragic and murderous 878 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:52,719 Speaker 2: ends to some sort of you know, you know, cult scenario. Yeah, Yeah, 879 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,080 Speaker 2: that's that's that's I think that's that's the energy that 880 00:51:56,120 --> 00:52:00,239 Speaker 2: he's that he was feeding on for this scene. So yeah, 881 00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:02,759 Speaker 2: that's where that's how I end up connecting things back 882 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,279 Speaker 2: around to each other here. Yeah. 883 00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,120 Speaker 3: Interesting, Well, yeah, I admire the effort here. 884 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:09,600 Speaker 2: Cool. 885 00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,080 Speaker 3: Now does any of this connect to the riddle of Steel? 886 00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,680 Speaker 2: Ah, the riddle of Steel. That's we did a whole 887 00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:21,040 Speaker 2: episode talking about the riddle of Steel Ones. I think, yeah, yeah, 888 00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:23,560 Speaker 2: years back, it was before Weird How Cinema started. We 889 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:27,319 Speaker 2: were we were experimenting with doing episodes. Well, we had 890 00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,480 Speaker 2: done episodes that discussed movies. We did one where we 891 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 2: talked about two thousand and one of Space Odyssey, and 892 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,160 Speaker 2: we talked a little bit about the movie, and then 893 00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,520 Speaker 2: we talked about some of the concepts wrapped up in it. 894 00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:38,719 Speaker 2: And we did a similar thing with Conan the Barbarian, 895 00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:41,400 Speaker 2: and I think we talked a little bit about Steel. 896 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:43,920 Speaker 2: We focused mostly on Fulstom. 897 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:44,800 Speaker 3: In that one. 898 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:50,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, hard not to Yeah, yeah. 899 00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:52,480 Speaker 3: Okay, Well do we think we're done with Dog Stars 900 00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,840 Speaker 3: and wait, Dogstars, Dog Days, Death Stars were ready to 901 00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:58,360 Speaker 3: contemplate this on the Tree of Woe. 902 00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:00,640 Speaker 2: I think I think we should time to stretch out 903 00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:02,279 Speaker 2: on the true woe and think about it. But hey, 904 00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,040 Speaker 2: we'd love to hear from everyone out there. Anything we've 905 00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,480 Speaker 2: talked about in this series is fair game. And that 906 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:13,120 Speaker 2: includes Thulsa Doom and Don Henley, who somehow seems like 907 00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,680 Speaker 2: they should go together. I don't know how, but they 908 00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,759 Speaker 2: do fit. But yeah, if you have anything you would 909 00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:23,960 Speaker 2: like to contribute, Questions, corrections, Field Reports stuff about blind 910 00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,440 Speaker 2: snakes right in We'd love to hear from you. A 911 00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,319 Speaker 2: reminder to everyone out there. The Stuff to Blow Your 912 00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:30,399 Speaker 2: Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core 913 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,400 Speaker 2: episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, short form episodes on Wednesdays 914 00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,799 Speaker 2: and on Fridays. We set aside most serious concerns just 915 00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,800 Speaker 2: talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. Follow 916 00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:41,120 Speaker 2: us wherever you get your audio podcasts. If you want 917 00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:43,960 Speaker 2: the video version, go to Netflix, and wherever you go 918 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:47,359 Speaker 2: we just ask the U rate review, subscribe, give us 919 00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:49,319 Speaker 2: two thumbs up if you're on Netflix as to be 920 00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:52,320 Speaker 2: reminded about new episodes. All of this helps us out. 921 00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,960 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer, JJ Posway. 922 00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:58,960 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 923 00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,120 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episod SO or any other, to 924 00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:03,520 Speaker 3: suggest a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 925 00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,000 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 926 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:14,480 Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. 927 00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,480 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 928 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:21,400 Speaker 1: more podcasts from Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 929 00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:37,920 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.