WEBVTT - S1-E02: The Killer's History 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:13.800 Diversion podcasts. This episode contains descriptions of graphic violence and 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:18.799 scenes of genocide. Listener's discretion is advised. So if the 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:22.640 first part was to find a Nazi and bringing forward trial, 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:26.680 the second part was to find a Nazi and killing 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:30.600 and to find someone that hiding in the other side 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:34.400 of the world. And the idea was to kill someone 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:39.160 that got blood on his hands. That's after Abraham. He's 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:42.519 a former MESSOD agent and a kind of amateur historian 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:45.640 of the agency. I called him to talk about the 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:49.680 operation to take out the Butcher of Latvia. But that's 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:52.839 what's the idea to let the other nazis, not to 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:55.520 try to find all the other just to let them 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:58.680 know that if we came to South America, we can 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:10.440 find you in any place. I'm Stephen Talty and this 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:14.520 is good assassin's hunting the butcher. And there was a 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:17.440 knock on the door. All the men line up outside 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:20.320 and the machine gun was that that? That that that 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:23.640 I remember the seventh one of the cops came over 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:26.520 and said, look at the sun tomorrow. You want to 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:31.560 see the end. We must thwart this shameful paces, the 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:34.200 end of a trail of blood and horror the end 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:36.560 of a man whose name will be written in inform 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:48.480 episode two, The Killer's History. So when we left me 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:51.560 O it's really spy. He had just finished a meeting 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:54.400 where he had been briefed on his mission. But before 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:57.040 we follow Meo on his trip across the world and 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:00.520 eventually to his first meeting with his target, it's important 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:04.240 to know who Zucres really was. Why was he called 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:07.640 the Butcher of Latvia or another of his nicknames, the 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:12.600 Hangman of Riga. Those two things, who the target really was, 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.919 and with crimes he committed during World War two, they'd 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:19.040 influence how the operation would go down. And for that 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:21.720 we have to go back to Latvia, to the days 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:29.360 just before World War Two began. Riga was a very beautiful, 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:33.799 very beauniversity. I had an opera, we had the university, 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:42.799 we had a polytech for engineering. We had five six theaters, German, 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:48.920 Russian theater, Jewish tata. This is Shishana Khan, a Latin 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:52.360 Jew from the town of Leopaya. I mean we got 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.520 monifeses all right. As in many of us A small states, 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:00.680 the Jews tried to identify and said higher culture and 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:06.760 the Illebo German was the culture. Anything which came from Germany, 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:10.360 I mean, was a hundred percent wonderful. The books, the music, 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:15.480 the clothes, the chocolates, everything was perfect. The people who 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:17.520 lived more on the eastern side of latter as they 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:21.720 emulated the Russians, of course, and the talk Russian. Latvie 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.000 is one of the Baltic states, and it's had a 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:28.280 fairly tragic history. It sits between two much more powerful countries, 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:31.799 Germany and Russia, and it's been occupied by one of 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:35.880 the other multiple times over the centuries, often with bloody 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.960 results when it came to its Jewish citizens. Latvie was 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:42.600 a decent place to live in the nineteen thirties if 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:47.880 you consider the other options in Eastern Europe. There was discrimination, quotas, 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:52.520 but no history of massacres thirty five in the names 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:57.320 of the streets. Every document was in three languages. Latvian, German, 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:01.240 Russian are not exactly that order. The capital Riga had 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:04.440 only one Jewish policeman. He was a kind of tourist 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:07.800 attraction because the sight of him was so rare. Many 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:11.280 Jews were called incidents with their classmates or their co workers. 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:15.760 Jews were sometimes referred to as the black growth. Some 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:18.600 of their neighbors even called them parasites. But there were 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:21.200 gentiles who were friends with Jewish families, and there were 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:25.000 even some inner marriages. So for Jews, Latview was not 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:31.200 as bad as say Russia, at least not yet. In 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:33.920 the thirties and into the forties, as the Nazis spread 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:37.600 their message, Latvia was actually considered as sanctuary for Jews. 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:40.799 They came to Riga from places like Prague or Lynn 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:45.240 Warsaw to find a safe place to live. During this 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:49.280 time the ninety thirties, Herbert Sucres was becoming a national hero. 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:54.320 This is Richards Plavniks. He's an historian. It teaches at 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:59.040 the University of Central Florida. Richards was born in Latvia 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:01.680 and he wrote a book about Victor Raj and the 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.599 notorious commando unit that Suckers was part of that murdered 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:10.360 so many thousands. Because Richards is an authority, I called 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:12.800 him to get his thoughts on Latvia during the war. 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:19.240 The celebrity of Suckers, who sort of technology pioneer, exploration 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:23.440 pioneer with some daring do uh. And he's handsome and 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.200 he looks good. He's a great spokes model for the 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.599 Latvian state in the nineteen thirties, and really it was 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.800 sort of of a piece in that era. Suckers was 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:35.560 such a celebrity in Latvia in the thirties. In fact, 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.400 popular songs were even recorded that told of his exploits. 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:44.120 This is a song about Zuker's ninety three solo flight 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:50.360 from Latvia to the British African colony of the Gambia. Hello, Hello, 0:05:54.080 --> 0:06:03.920 or Lida. As I mentioned before, he was a brilliant pilot, 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:07.480 made these epic journeys all over the world. When it 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:10.279 came to flying, he really was a kind of genius. 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:13.920 Not only did he design a series of small aircraft, 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.320 he built them by hand on a tiny budget, often 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:20.440 using spare parts. He took off crashed planes. Then he 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:25.040 flew that thousands of miles to places like Japan, the 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:29.240 West coast of Africa, even Palestine. He was a daredevil 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:33.120 with a brain. Herbert Suckers put Latvia on the map. 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:37.160 His fellow citizens, including many Jews, loved him for it. 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:42.200 If you're looking for an American equivalent, think Amelia Earhart 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:48.560 or Charles Lindbergh. Suckers was a big deal, but It's 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:50.760 not like he had a perfect reputation when it came 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:53.320 to Jews. He joined the Air Force when he was young. 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.200 In the Latin military at that time it had a 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.359 lot of anti Semites. Zuckers would occasionally make an anti 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:03.400 Jewish joe. It was fairly typical at the time. But 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:05.720 he had actually grown up with Jews. They had worked 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:08.240 in his father's shop, and he was often seen talking 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:11.920 with Jewish men in the cafes of Riga. So Circrets 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:15.400 wasn't considered an anti Semite before the war. In fact, 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:19.080 far from it. I spoke with a man named Michael 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.760 crom about his father. Isaac crom who was the Latvian 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:26.640 Jew was at school studying engineering at the same time 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:30.600 as Herbert Suckers. Michael Cromb pointed me to his father's 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:34.040 interview with the survivors of the show a Visual History 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:39.360 Foundation now the usc Show A Foundation Institute as one 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:45.160 fellow that Chuckers who became infamous his name, uh you know, 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:49.360 mentioning here. He was a mechanical student and mechanical call 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:51.880 it call that he had a faculty Sustas and I 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:55.520 was an engineering since my father was an engineering student 0:07:56.240 --> 0:08:03.520 and Suckers was this engineering person. He saw Suckers all 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:08.240 the time in the hallways uh in the engineering the 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:12.120 warment and Suckers was a celebrity and big man on 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:17.760 campus and always was mobbed by people. But there was 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:22.840 no question that my father I knew him, saw him, 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:27.000 didn't interact with him in terms of being friends, didn't 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:33.000 have conversations with him, but saw him at you know, 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:36.559 a distance of a few feet all the time. And 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:40.040 the show a Foundation interview, Isaac crom talks about how 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:44.280 Zuker's visited Palestine in the thirties and when he came 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:47.880 back to Latvia gave public talks about the Jewish settlers 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:51.839 he observed there. The Jews had impressed stokers. Then the 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:57.319 Suckers on the way back has stopped over in Palestine, 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:05.959 and he had lectures in the Jewish theater, fully packed houses, 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:14.199 telling them how the Halachim we're working on the swamps 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:20.439 and drying out the swam flant in Ronstin. He made 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:27.120 a meant on this kind of lectures in the Soviets 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:32.240 occupied Latvia. This becomes important later in the story. The 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:35.040 takeover was part of something called the Molotov Ribbon trop 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:38.520 packed between Hitler and Stalin. It meant that life in 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:44.680 Latvia was completely transformed. Money became worthless. Soviet soldiers broke 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:48.280 into shops and took everything they wanted. Thousands of Latvians 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:51.640 exiled to Siberia or sentenced to death. It was a 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:56.480 terrible time. The Soviets were almost universally hated. Your occupation 0:09:56.520 --> 0:10:01.400 became known as the Year of Horror. Then, in July 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:05.319 forty one, the Germans invade. They fought their way into Riga. 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.720 It soon sent the last Soviet soldiers running to the east. 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:13.680 Another kind of horror emerged, one now directed at Jews. 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:19.680 The Nazis began passing anti Semitic laws. They encouraged Latvians 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:23.120 to direct their hatred at their Jewish neighbors. They declared 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:25.880 that Jews had helped the Soviets to occupy Latvia and 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:29.920 carry out atrocities. Jews had betrayed their country and they 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.560 needed to pay for it. It was a lie, of course, 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:37.360 but it worked. Round Ups began almost immediately. What added 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:39.520 to the terror was that it was often their fellow 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:42.439 Latvians who took the lead in the violence. Once I 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:46.680 remembered in my wildest streams I could never have a 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.880 match on the hidden animosity the Latvians had for their 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:55.040 Jewish neighbors. I had hoped deliberation would have passionate meaning 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:59.959 for the Jews. Instead, the Latvians as sawed themselves as 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.400 the messengers of Nazi evil and began to govern the 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:06.360 city as if they had received consent from Berlin to 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:10.280 do so. I had lived my entire life there among 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:14.800 Latvians were now considered me their mortal enemy and were 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:19.080 prepared to kill me. Jews and Gentiles had lived side 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:22.000 by side in Latvia, gone to the same schools, and 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:25.280 tore the suffering of the Soviet occupation together, but now 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:29.120 the Jews were being singled out. Jewish families hid in 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:31.719 their apartments, listening for the sound of heavy footsteps on 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.880 the stairs. That was the sign the German and Latvian 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:38.600 soldiers were in the building looking for them. Landlords would 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.160 tell the Germans where the families lived, and there would 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:43.320 be a loud pounding on the door that would echo 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:49.040 through the building. And on the first night of the occupation, 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:53.680 on July the first or second, every Jewish home was 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:57.560 visited by the Nazis, along with it with the Latvian God. 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:01.520 This is Sasha's Seminoff, a Latin Jew who was sixteen 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:04.640 when the Nazis invaded. And there was a knock on 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.800 the door on July the second. It was a knock 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:11.280 at the door and they were was it German s 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:16.080 s officer and the Latvian God? And they said, all 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.320 the men line up outside. And we looked out the 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:21.280 window and there it was nighttime and there all our 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:24.080 neighbors the land up outside on the god like like 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:29.000 like criminals. The Latin Guard, the seven Off mentions. That 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:32.960 was Herbert Suckers. Seminas father knew him from before the war. 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.440 He tried to reason with the famous aviator and my 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:40.000 dad said, oh no, I'm a I'm a veteran of 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:42.320 the First World War, you know, and show these papers. 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.199 It's a Jew. Get out of it. It was the 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.720 last time Sashi would see his father. He was shot 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:51.520 in the nearby forest and buried in a mass grave 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:56.240 along with thousands of other Jewish men. A few nights later, 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:01.200 the butcher came back. He wanted the Seminas flat. He 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:06.360 occupied our apartment all our longings, and he was the 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:10.200 one that showed my mother the list of the Mende. 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:14.720 But they were killed on that first program, and my mother, 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:18.800 my father was amongst them. Zukers even ordered Seminof, who 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:22.000 was a talented young musician, to complay the piano at 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:25.360 the wild parties he threw at the seminoffs apartment. He 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:27.800 would call me at night he had used to entertain 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:31.320 some of his horse had a Jewish girlfriend that they 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:36.080 would it was his mistress, and he would make me 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.320 come up to my apartment and play the piano for 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:43.760 him bal it was drinking. Just imagine that scene, this 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:46.280 teenage boy walking into the apartment. He grew up in 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.560 on the couches was aunts and uncles. Once sat during 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:55.080 family parties with these red faced soldiers, laughing, shouting, drinking 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:58.640 bottle after bottle. They would come to the apartment after 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:00.880 the work of rounding up and killing Jews was done. 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:04.760 They would tell jokes, stories about their day. The place 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.520 was like a frat house, but with a much darker edge, 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:10.839 and Sasha would play waltz is on the piano as 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.960 the men dance with prostitutes. Who knows what went on 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.760 in the bedrooms. Sasha didn't see that, but he could imagine. 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.480 In a memoir, he wrote After the war, Seminof recalled 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.520 how Sukers treated the Jewish girl he brought along with him. 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:27.960 One day, he ordered me at night in the month 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:31.760 of July n that I come to his room and 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.320 play for him and his friends. There I met the 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:39.160 heads of the secret lot, being police. They were drunk 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:43.160 that I played for many hours. Dous I witnessed how 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:46.160 they brought in the Jewish girl, and each of them, 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.680 one after the other, had their way with her. I 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.240 know that this maiden was held for many more weeks 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:56.960 and took his apartment. There were executions in the streets. 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:00.360 The Germans created a ghetto in a poor neighborhood of Riga, 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:03.360 and every Jew, on pain of death, was ordered to 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:07.280 move there. Zuker has lived like a lord inoccupied Riga. 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.080 He and his men could do anything anything they wanted, 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.760 provided they didn't cross the Germans. He would visit Jewish 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.440 homes demanding coffee and women. He would drag the wom 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:21.040 into his car and rape them. Occasionally he'd kill and 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.640 mutilate them, or he would show up in the ghetto 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:29.760 drunk and go crazy. Survivor El Medalia remembered those visits. 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.240 She knew Sukers well she'd met him at one of 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:35.880 the holding points for prisoners in Riga, where he told 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.760 her she didn't look very much like a Jew. Now 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:42.800 she saw him in action. Oppression and murder became part 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:48.000 of everyday life. One day I saw Zukers through the 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:52.320 window driving his car up to the ghetto. He was 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:57.680 drunk and could hardly stand on his feet. Laughing, he 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:02.080 started shooting at the people like a hunter in a forest. 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:09.560 This is Henry burmanis Latin into talking about atrocities during 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:13.080 the war. As we lined up to go to work 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:16.600 that morning, we were faced on the other side of 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:23.560 the street by hundred ten special Electrian police and we 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:27.960 stood there eyeing each other, and one of the cops 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:32.920 came over and poked his rifle in my stomach and said, 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:35.440 look at the sun tomorrow, you want to see it again. 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:42.080 I didn't know what he had in mind, but that 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:49.080 group came into the ghetto unders a supervision and on 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:54.280 the supervision of a man name of Suckers Latvian wards 0:16:54.560 --> 0:17:01.600 flying is. They took off of the get of population 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:07.640 by seat blocks and forced them out to the out 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:12.080 of their homes to line up in the sleep. The 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:16.200 columns of four or five, and they were marched off 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:34.480 to Lumberland. November, the clearing of the Riga Ghetto began. 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:38.600 The Nazis and their accompasses took Choose and forced them 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:42.119 into a nearby forest. Women were dragged from their apartments 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:46.720 along with their children and beaten. Those who resisted were 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:52.280 often bludged to death. Here's Isaac crom again, who saw 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:56.080 Zukers in action that morning. The recording of crimes statement 0:17:56.320 --> 0:18:00.760 is unavailable, so this is an actor reading Ham's words. 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:04.639 This time, I was on lords Of Street near the 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:09.400 Riga Ghetto when I saw some Joe being dragged. Herbert 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.800 Zuckers was in charge of the soldiers. He was dressed 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:16.600 in black uniform of a military aviator. He ordered me 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:19.800 and some other men to put the killed Jews on 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:25.760 the sledge and dragged them to the cemetery. I had 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:30.080 an upportnity to watch Suckers closely for a while. A 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:33.720 Jewish woman started screaming when she was being dragged to 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:37.320 the truck. She wanted to have her daughter with her. 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:41.520 Zuker shot her with his gun. I was a witness 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:45.160 of this killing. I also saw Sukers point his gun 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:48.560 at the child who was crying because he couldn't find 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:52.760 his mother in the crowd. He killed this child with 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:58.119 one shot. Some of the testimonies are almost too awful 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:02.000 to believe proven. Parkin been a neighbor of the Zukers 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:06.280 when Herbert was a boy. He spoke Yiddish very well, 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:11.040 for you've always been friends with Jews. We grew up 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:15.760 together and her friends. But later during the Nazi occupation, 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:19.240 Barkin ran across the butcher in Riga. The man he 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:24.439 once called a friend had become unrecognizable. When I was 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.200 still in the ghetto, I saw how Tooker has approached 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:31.960 a girl the age of ten or eleven years and 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:36.000 asked in Yiddish if you would like a candy. He 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.120 told her to open her mouth, and then I saw 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:43.399 him pulling his revolver, shootings a girl into mouth and 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.399 killing her on the spot. I was just going to 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:51.040 work and walking on the same sidewalk I saw the 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:57.720 murder from close up. Suckers was a cruel murderer. Zuker's 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:00.639 fame worked against him. He was a well known figure 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.639 in Latvia. There were other men who were equally as 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:07.960 brutal in but Jews remembered Suckers because he was a 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:13.120 kind of celebrity. There was also the trail. Jews knew 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:15.679 they were anti Semites and Riga before the war, but 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:18.919 Suckers had never been one of them. For many Jews, 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:24.160 he embodied the double cross their neighbors had inflicted on them. 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:26.960 The official toll of Suckers actions, the one that Massad 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:31.480 used was thirty thousand men, women and children. That didn't 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.400 mean he'd shot all those people by himself. For many 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:37.560 of those deaths, he acted as a collaborator, the man 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.320 who forced Jews out of their homes, drove them to 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:44.560 the killing grounds. I came across other stories as well. 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:50.080 This is Carolina Tates, a Jewish Latvian who was an 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:53.600 eyewitness to the mass murders in the Ramboula forest outside 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:58.320 Riga and so um a ditch and that it was 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:03.480 people of his his Tata shooters with the and the 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:06.520 Germans say stay in line or we was back there. 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:10.439 We was very bad. So the first people because I 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:12.640 just saw that I was not there, but I saw 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:16.920 that they stand and and the ditch on that side 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:20.960 was the shooters. There was Latvians and Germans and the 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:23.600 Jewish people. You know, there is a mother with a 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:27.479 child and too little. Every the Jewish people have children, 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:30.800 a lot of children. They stay in the machine gun. 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:37.600 Was I remember the sound. The sound was as they 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:42.320 was falling in that grave, half dead, half life, the 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:47.679 little children screaming, people was benching to God. Well the 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:52.720 woman was screaming and yelling and crying. It is a mess, 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:55.639 you know. That was just like, what what can I feel? 0:21:55.720 --> 0:22:00.640 I feel nothing? Ella, the young woman who seen sucers 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.040 shoot at people in the ghetto, was driven to the 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:07.960 pits on December eight, when thousands of Jews were murdered. 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:12.000 Secrets was among the commandos who cleared the ghetto and 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:15.879 forced the Jews to the pits. There they were ordered 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:20.159 into the trenches, shot in rows. Mothers were ordered to 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:23.080 hold their infants in the air and both were executed 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:29.120 at close range. Some were buried alive. Ella watched as 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:33.840 her fellow Jews prepared for their desks. The people seemed 0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:39.560 indifferent to their surroundings. They were holding each other, suffering 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:45.119 from the bitter cold, crying and saying goodbye. Relatives and 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:50.200 friends were standing together. From the front, we could hear 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:55.639 veiling and crying, which created a terrible hun a drone. 0:22:56.760 --> 0:23:00.680 There were many women with babies crying in their arms, 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:05.640 as though they also sensed their impending death. Children took 0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:10.440 hold of the clothing of their mothers, grandmothers, and grandfathers 0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:15.919 seeking protection. There are no words to describe the tragedy. 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:20.159 Ella actually managed to escape the pits by claiming she 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:23.240 wasn't Jewish. A guard let her stand to the side. 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:26.520 She listened to the shots ring out until they began 0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:29.439 to die off. Finally, she was brought to a car 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:35.359 told to get inside. The Germans began to leave. The 0:23:35.440 --> 0:23:37.959 door of the car opened and Zuker sat down at 0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:40.480 the veal. He turned on the lights in the car 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:44.359 and peered back at us. For a few seconds, he 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:48.560 stared at me. I was frightened that he might recognize me. 0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:53.120 I remembered his assertion that I didn't look Jewish at all, 0:23:53.720 --> 0:23:56.359 that I would live a better life somewhere in the 0:23:56.440 --> 0:24:00.840 city like other people, or go to the country. But 0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:05.960 this time Zucker said nothing. He started the engine and 0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:09.879 they left that horrible place. He did not betray me. 0:24:16.320 --> 0:24:19.240 So suckers saved the life of this young Jewish woman, 0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:22.679 and she wasn't the only one. Once in a while, 0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:25.639 as the killing went on, he would pick out a 0:24:25.720 --> 0:24:31.240 Jew almost at random and helped him escape. Why why 0:24:31.240 --> 0:24:34.119 did the butcher kill some of his neighbors and spare others? 0:24:35.119 --> 0:24:38.040 I read through the testimonies looking for a clue. Maybe 0:24:38.040 --> 0:24:39.960 he did it for the money, but there was no 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:43.080 record of him asking for any Maybe he only saved 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:46.240 young women, but no, he actually spared at least one 0:24:46.320 --> 0:24:50.159 Jewish Man, a doctor he'd known before the war. So 0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:55.560 what was it? The testimonies did answer one question for me. 0:24:56.200 --> 0:24:59.720 Clearly Zukers was guilty, So why did he still have 0:24:59.800 --> 0:25:04.520 the enders? I found half a dozen eyewitnesses to his actions, 0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:08.080 and later I came across statements from fellow Latvians in 0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:11.560 his commando unit. They confirmed he had been part of 0:25:11.600 --> 0:25:17.520 the massacres. But again, why, I went through other possibilities. 0:25:18.160 --> 0:25:20.720 Maybe he'd always been an anti Semit and just hit 0:25:20.760 --> 0:25:23.800 it till the Nazis came. Maybe the Germans forced him 0:25:23.840 --> 0:25:27.000 to kill. That was the explanation of many non Germans 0:25:27.240 --> 0:25:30.840 who murdered Jews during the war. Maybe that was part 0:25:30.880 --> 0:25:34.480 of the answer. But then I'd read a testimony talking 0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:38.040 about how the butcher seemed to enjoy killing. There was 0:25:38.080 --> 0:25:41.720 more than one. It just didn't fit the idea that 0:25:41.800 --> 0:25:46.360 he was forced to do anything, So I had no answers. 0:25:46.880 --> 0:25:49.359 Even the survivors and their testimonies couldn't give a reason. 0:25:50.080 --> 0:25:52.600 Most of them, they were as baffled as I was. 0:25:54.200 --> 0:25:57.119 Maybe there were others who fit this pattern, friendly towards 0:25:57.200 --> 0:26:00.360 Jews before the war, joined in the maskers, but save 0:26:00.440 --> 0:26:04.280 the occasional victim. Maybe there were historians who had found 0:26:04.320 --> 0:26:07.280 killers like this and that would help give some insight 0:26:07.480 --> 0:26:12.280 into Zukers. I made some calls, and I was able 0:26:12.320 --> 0:26:15.600 to track down and speak to two people who shared 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:19.199 with me some crucial insights. I'll play you some of 0:26:19.240 --> 0:26:24.080 those tapes a little later in a future episode. It 0:26:24.160 --> 0:26:27.680 was a start, a way to get inside Suker's mind. 0:26:30.600 --> 0:26:33.880 So the war ends, Suker survived it without being thrown 0:26:33.920 --> 0:26:36.919 into a pow camp. He was detained briefly by the U. 0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:39.200 S Army, but his name was not on any list 0:26:39.240 --> 0:26:41.960 of perpetrators at that point, so he was let go. 0:26:43.040 --> 0:26:46.760 Then in he and his family sailed for Brazil. They 0:26:46.760 --> 0:26:50.240 had almost no money. When the family arrived, Zukers was 0:26:50.280 --> 0:26:52.480 forced to build a makeshift house on a real beach 0:26:52.560 --> 0:26:54.879 to give them somewhere to live. But he was a 0:26:54.920 --> 0:26:57.800 hard worker. He built small boats to rent a tourists 0:26:58.280 --> 0:27:02.640 and his business crew. He came a success. He even 0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:05.320 told people he'd hid shows when the Nazis had come 0:27:05.359 --> 0:27:07.960 to Latvia, that he'd risked his life to save a 0:27:07.960 --> 0:27:11.640 young woman named Miriam. In fact, he brought her to Brazil. 0:27:12.280 --> 0:27:15.200 He took Miriam around, showed her off to his new friends. 0:27:16.040 --> 0:27:19.119 Resilient Jews were moved. He was a hero who had 0:27:19.119 --> 0:27:21.919 protected their brothers and sisters when they were being hunted. 0:27:22.560 --> 0:27:25.720 Jos and Rio, two parties for Zukers, invited him to 0:27:25.720 --> 0:27:30.120 their homes, even gave him money. As for Miriam, it's 0:27:30.160 --> 0:27:32.840