1 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: Diversion podcasts. This episode contains descriptions of graphic violence and 2 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: scenes of genocide. Listener's discretion is advised. So if the 3 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 1: first part was to find a Nazi and bringing forward trial, 4 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: the second part was to find a Nazi and killing 5 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: and to find someone that hiding in the other side 6 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: of the world. And the idea was to kill someone 7 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 1: that got blood on his hands. That's after Abraham. He's 8 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: a former MESSOD agent and a kind of amateur historian 9 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: of the agency. I called him to talk about the 10 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: operation to take out the Butcher of Latvia. But that's 11 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: what's the idea to let the other nazis, not to 12 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: try to find all the other just to let them 13 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: know that if we came to South America, we can 14 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: find you in any place. I'm Stephen Talty and this 15 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: is good assassin's hunting the butcher. And there was a 16 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: knock on the door. All the men line up outside 17 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 1: and the machine gun was that that? That that that 18 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: I remember the seventh one of the cops came over 19 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: and said, look at the sun tomorrow. You want to 20 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: see the end. We must thwart this shameful paces, the 21 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: end of a trail of blood and horror the end 22 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: of a man whose name will be written in inform 23 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: episode two, The Killer's History. So when we left me 24 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: O it's really spy. He had just finished a meeting 25 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: where he had been briefed on his mission. But before 26 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: we follow Meo on his trip across the world and 27 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: eventually to his first meeting with his target, it's important 28 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: to know who Zucres really was. Why was he called 29 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: the Butcher of Latvia or another of his nicknames, the 30 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: Hangman of Riga. Those two things, who the target really was, 31 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: and with crimes he committed during World War two, they'd 32 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: influence how the operation would go down. And for that 33 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: we have to go back to Latvia, to the days 34 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: just before World War Two began. Riga was a very beautiful, 35 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 1: very beauniversity. I had an opera, we had the university, 36 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 1: we had a polytech for engineering. We had five six theaters, German, 37 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: Russian theater, Jewish tata. This is Shishana Khan, a Latin 38 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: Jew from the town of Leopaya. I mean we got 39 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: monifeses all right. As in many of us A small states, 40 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: the Jews tried to identify and said higher culture and 41 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: the Illebo German was the culture. Anything which came from Germany, 42 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: I mean, was a hundred percent wonderful. The books, the music, 43 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: the clothes, the chocolates, everything was perfect. The people who 44 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: lived more on the eastern side of latter as they 45 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: emulated the Russians, of course, and the talk Russian. Latvie 46 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: is one of the Baltic states, and it's had a 47 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: fairly tragic history. It sits between two much more powerful countries, 48 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 1: Germany and Russia, and it's been occupied by one of 49 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: the other multiple times over the centuries, often with bloody 50 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: results when it came to its Jewish citizens. Latvie was 51 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: a decent place to live in the nineteen thirties if 52 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: you consider the other options in Eastern Europe. There was discrimination, quotas, 53 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: but no history of massacres thirty five in the names 54 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: of the streets. Every document was in three languages. Latvian, German, 55 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: Russian are not exactly that order. The capital Riga had 56 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: only one Jewish policeman. He was a kind of tourist 57 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: attraction because the sight of him was so rare. Many 58 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: Jews were called incidents with their classmates or their co workers. 59 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: Jews were sometimes referred to as the black growth. Some 60 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 1: of their neighbors even called them parasites. But there were 61 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: gentiles who were friends with Jewish families, and there were 62 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: even some inner marriages. So for Jews, Latview was not 63 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: as bad as say Russia, at least not yet. In 64 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: the thirties and into the forties, as the Nazis spread 65 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: their message, Latvia was actually considered as sanctuary for Jews. 66 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,799 Speaker 1: They came to Riga from places like Prague or Lynn 67 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: Warsaw to find a safe place to live. During this 68 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: time the ninety thirties, Herbert Sucres was becoming a national hero. 69 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: This is Richards Plavniks. He's an historian. It teaches at 70 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: the University of Central Florida. Richards was born in Latvia 71 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: and he wrote a book about Victor Raj and the 72 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: notorious commando unit that Suckers was part of that murdered 73 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: so many thousands. Because Richards is an authority, I called 74 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: him to get his thoughts on Latvia during the war. 75 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: The celebrity of Suckers, who sort of technology pioneer, exploration 76 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: pioneer with some daring do uh. And he's handsome and 77 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: he looks good. He's a great spokes model for the 78 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: Latvian state in the nineteen thirties, and really it was 79 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: sort of of a piece in that era. Suckers was 80 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: such a celebrity in Latvia in the thirties. In fact, 81 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: popular songs were even recorded that told of his exploits. 82 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: This is a song about Zuker's ninety three solo flight 83 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: from Latvia to the British African colony of the Gambia. Hello, Hello, 84 00:05:54,080 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: or Lida. As I mentioned before, he was a brilliant pilot, 85 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: made these epic journeys all over the world. When it 86 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: came to flying, he really was a kind of genius. 87 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: Not only did he design a series of small aircraft, 88 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: he built them by hand on a tiny budget, often 89 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: using spare parts. He took off crashed planes. Then he 90 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 1: flew that thousands of miles to places like Japan, the 91 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: West coast of Africa, even Palestine. He was a daredevil 92 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: with a brain. Herbert Suckers put Latvia on the map. 93 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: His fellow citizens, including many Jews, loved him for it. 94 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: If you're looking for an American equivalent, think Amelia Earhart 95 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: or Charles Lindbergh. Suckers was a big deal, but It's 96 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: not like he had a perfect reputation when it came 97 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: to Jews. He joined the Air Force when he was young. 98 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: In the Latin military at that time it had a 99 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 1: lot of anti Semites. Zuckers would occasionally make an anti 100 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: Jewish joe. It was fairly typical at the time. But 101 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: he had actually grown up with Jews. They had worked 102 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: in his father's shop, and he was often seen talking 103 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: with Jewish men in the cafes of Riga. So Circrets 104 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: wasn't considered an anti Semite before the war. In fact, 105 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: far from it. I spoke with a man named Michael 106 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: crom about his father. Isaac crom who was the Latvian 107 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: Jew was at school studying engineering at the same time 108 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: as Herbert Suckers. Michael Cromb pointed me to his father's 109 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: interview with the survivors of the show a Visual History 110 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: Foundation now the usc Show A Foundation Institute as one 111 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: fellow that Chuckers who became infamous his name, uh you know, 112 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: mentioning here. He was a mechanical student and mechanical call 113 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: it call that he had a faculty Sustas and I 114 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: was an engineering since my father was an engineering student 115 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: and Suckers was this engineering person. He saw Suckers all 116 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: the time in the hallways uh in the engineering the 117 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: warment and Suckers was a celebrity and big man on 118 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: campus and always was mobbed by people. But there was 119 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: no question that my father I knew him, saw him, 120 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: didn't interact with him in terms of being friends, didn't 121 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: have conversations with him, but saw him at you know, 122 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 1: a distance of a few feet all the time. And 123 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: the show a Foundation interview, Isaac crom talks about how 124 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: Zuker's visited Palestine in the thirties and when he came 125 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: back to Latvia gave public talks about the Jewish settlers 126 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 1: he observed there. The Jews had impressed stokers. Then the 127 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 1: Suckers on the way back has stopped over in Palestine, 128 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: and he had lectures in the Jewish theater, fully packed houses, 129 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 1: telling them how the Halachim we're working on the swamps 130 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: and drying out the swam flant in Ronstin. He made 131 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: a meant on this kind of lectures in the Soviets 132 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: occupied Latvia. This becomes important later in the story. The 133 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: takeover was part of something called the Molotov Ribbon trop 134 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: packed between Hitler and Stalin. It meant that life in 135 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: Latvia was completely transformed. Money became worthless. Soviet soldiers broke 136 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: into shops and took everything they wanted. Thousands of Latvians 137 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: exiled to Siberia or sentenced to death. It was a 138 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: terrible time. The Soviets were almost universally hated. Your occupation 139 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: became known as the Year of Horror. Then, in July 140 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 1: forty one, the Germans invade. They fought their way into Riga. 141 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: It soon sent the last Soviet soldiers running to the east. 142 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: Another kind of horror emerged, one now directed at Jews. 143 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: The Nazis began passing anti Semitic laws. They encouraged Latvians 144 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: to direct their hatred at their Jewish neighbors. They declared 145 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: that Jews had helped the Soviets to occupy Latvia and 146 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: carry out atrocities. Jews had betrayed their country and they 147 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: needed to pay for it. It was a lie, of course, 148 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: but it worked. Round Ups began almost immediately. What added 149 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: to the terror was that it was often their fellow 150 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: Latvians who took the lead in the violence. Once I 151 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: remembered in my wildest streams I could never have a 152 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: match on the hidden animosity the Latvians had for their 153 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: Jewish neighbors. I had hoped deliberation would have passionate meaning 154 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: for the Jews. Instead, the Latvians as sawed themselves as 155 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: the messengers of Nazi evil and began to govern the 156 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: city as if they had received consent from Berlin to 157 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: do so. I had lived my entire life there among 158 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: Latvians were now considered me their mortal enemy and were 159 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: prepared to kill me. Jews and Gentiles had lived side 160 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: by side in Latvia, gone to the same schools, and 161 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: tore the suffering of the Soviet occupation together, but now 162 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: the Jews were being singled out. Jewish families hid in 163 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,719 Speaker 1: their apartments, listening for the sound of heavy footsteps on 164 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: the stairs. That was the sign the German and Latvian 165 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: soldiers were in the building looking for them. Landlords would 166 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: tell the Germans where the families lived, and there would 167 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: be a loud pounding on the door that would echo 168 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: through the building. And on the first night of the occupation, 169 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: on July the first or second, every Jewish home was 170 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: visited by the Nazis, along with it with the Latvian God. 171 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: This is Sasha's Seminoff, a Latin Jew who was sixteen 172 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: when the Nazis invaded. And there was a knock on 173 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: the door on July the second. It was a knock 174 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: at the door and they were was it German s 175 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: s officer and the Latvian God? And they said, all 176 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: the men line up outside. And we looked out the 177 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: window and there it was nighttime and there all our 178 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: neighbors the land up outside on the god like like 179 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: like criminals. The Latin Guard, the seven Off mentions. That 180 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: was Herbert Suckers. Seminas father knew him from before the war. 181 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: He tried to reason with the famous aviator and my 182 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: dad said, oh no, I'm a I'm a veteran of 183 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: the First World War, you know, and show these papers. 184 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 1: It's a Jew. Get out of it. It was the 185 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: last time Sashi would see his father. He was shot 186 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: in the nearby forest and buried in a mass grave 187 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: along with thousands of other Jewish men. A few nights later, 188 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: the butcher came back. He wanted the Seminas flat. He 189 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: occupied our apartment all our longings, and he was the 190 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: one that showed my mother the list of the Mende. 191 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: But they were killed on that first program, and my mother, 192 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: my father was amongst them. Zukers even ordered Seminof, who 193 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: was a talented young musician, to complay the piano at 194 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: the wild parties he threw at the seminoffs apartment. He 195 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: would call me at night he had used to entertain 196 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: some of his horse had a Jewish girlfriend that they 197 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: would it was his mistress, and he would make me 198 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: come up to my apartment and play the piano for 199 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: him bal it was drinking. Just imagine that scene, this 200 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: teenage boy walking into the apartment. He grew up in 201 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: on the couches was aunts and uncles. Once sat during 202 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: family parties with these red faced soldiers, laughing, shouting, drinking 203 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: bottle after bottle. They would come to the apartment after 204 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: the work of rounding up and killing Jews was done. 205 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: They would tell jokes, stories about their day. The place 206 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: was like a frat house, but with a much darker edge, 207 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,839 Speaker 1: and Sasha would play waltz is on the piano as 208 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: the men dance with prostitutes. Who knows what went on 209 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: in the bedrooms. Sasha didn't see that, but he could imagine. 210 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: In a memoir, he wrote After the war, Seminof recalled 211 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: how Sukers treated the Jewish girl he brought along with him. 212 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: One day, he ordered me at night in the month 213 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: of July n that I come to his room and 214 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: play for him and his friends. There I met the 215 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: heads of the secret lot, being police. They were drunk 216 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: that I played for many hours. Dous I witnessed how 217 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: they brought in the Jewish girl, and each of them, 218 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: one after the other, had their way with her. I 219 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: know that this maiden was held for many more weeks 220 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: and took his apartment. There were executions in the streets. 221 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: The Germans created a ghetto in a poor neighborhood of Riga, 222 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: and every Jew, on pain of death, was ordered to 223 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: move there. Zuker has lived like a lord inoccupied Riga. 224 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: He and his men could do anything anything they wanted, 225 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: provided they didn't cross the Germans. He would visit Jewish 226 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: homes demanding coffee and women. He would drag the wom 227 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: into his car and rape them. Occasionally he'd kill and 228 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: mutilate them, or he would show up in the ghetto 229 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: drunk and go crazy. Survivor El Medalia remembered those visits. 230 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: She knew Sukers well she'd met him at one of 231 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: the holding points for prisoners in Riga, where he told 232 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: her she didn't look very much like a Jew. Now 233 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: she saw him in action. Oppression and murder became part 234 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: of everyday life. One day I saw Zukers through the 235 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: window driving his car up to the ghetto. He was 236 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: drunk and could hardly stand on his feet. Laughing, he 237 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: started shooting at the people like a hunter in a forest. 238 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: This is Henry burmanis Latin into talking about atrocities during 239 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: the war. As we lined up to go to work 240 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: that morning, we were faced on the other side of 241 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: the street by hundred ten special Electrian police and we 242 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: stood there eyeing each other, and one of the cops 243 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: came over and poked his rifle in my stomach and said, 244 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: look at the sun tomorrow, you want to see it again. 245 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: I didn't know what he had in mind, but that 246 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: group came into the ghetto unders a supervision and on 247 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: the supervision of a man name of Suckers Latvian wards 248 00:16:54,560 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: flying is. They took off of the get of population 249 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 1: by seat blocks and forced them out to the out 250 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: of their homes to line up in the sleep. The 251 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: columns of four or five, and they were marched off 252 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: to Lumberland. November, the clearing of the Riga Ghetto began. 253 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: The Nazis and their accompasses took Choose and forced them 254 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: into a nearby forest. Women were dragged from their apartments 255 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: along with their children and beaten. Those who resisted were 256 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: often bludged to death. Here's Isaac crom again, who saw 257 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: Zukers in action that morning. The recording of crimes statement 258 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: is unavailable, so this is an actor reading Ham's words. 259 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 1: This time, I was on lords Of Street near the 260 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: Riga Ghetto when I saw some Joe being dragged. Herbert 261 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: Zuckers was in charge of the soldiers. He was dressed 262 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: in black uniform of a military aviator. He ordered me 263 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: and some other men to put the killed Jews on 264 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: the sledge and dragged them to the cemetery. I had 265 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: an upportnity to watch Suckers closely for a while. A 266 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: Jewish woman started screaming when she was being dragged to 267 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: the truck. She wanted to have her daughter with her. 268 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: Zuker shot her with his gun. I was a witness 269 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: of this killing. I also saw Sukers point his gun 270 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: at the child who was crying because he couldn't find 271 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: his mother in the crowd. He killed this child with 272 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: one shot. Some of the testimonies are almost too awful 273 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: to believe proven. Parkin been a neighbor of the Zukers 274 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: when Herbert was a boy. He spoke Yiddish very well, 275 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: for you've always been friends with Jews. We grew up 276 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: together and her friends. But later during the Nazi occupation, 277 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: Barkin ran across the butcher in Riga. The man he 278 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 1: once called a friend had become unrecognizable. When I was 279 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: still in the ghetto, I saw how Tooker has approached 280 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: a girl the age of ten or eleven years and 281 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: asked in Yiddish if you would like a candy. He 282 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: told her to open her mouth, and then I saw 283 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: him pulling his revolver, shootings a girl into mouth and 284 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 1: killing her on the spot. I was just going to 285 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: work and walking on the same sidewalk I saw the 286 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: murder from close up. Suckers was a cruel murderer. Zuker's 287 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: fame worked against him. He was a well known figure 288 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: in Latvia. There were other men who were equally as 289 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: brutal in but Jews remembered Suckers because he was a 290 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: kind of celebrity. There was also the trail. Jews knew 291 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 1: they were anti Semites and Riga before the war, but 292 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 1: Suckers had never been one of them. For many Jews, 293 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: he embodied the double cross their neighbors had inflicted on them. 294 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: The official toll of Suckers actions, the one that Massad 295 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: used was thirty thousand men, women and children. That didn't 296 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: mean he'd shot all those people by himself. For many 297 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: of those deaths, he acted as a collaborator, the man 298 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: who forced Jews out of their homes, drove them to 299 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: the killing grounds. I came across other stories as well. 300 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: This is Carolina Tates, a Jewish Latvian who was an 301 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: eyewitness to the mass murders in the Ramboula forest outside 302 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: Riga and so um a ditch and that it was 303 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: people of his his Tata shooters with the and the 304 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: Germans say stay in line or we was back there. 305 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: We was very bad. So the first people because I 306 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 1: just saw that I was not there, but I saw 307 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: that they stand and and the ditch on that side 308 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: was the shooters. There was Latvians and Germans and the 309 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: Jewish people. You know, there is a mother with a 310 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,479 Speaker 1: child and too little. Every the Jewish people have children, 311 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: a lot of children. They stay in the machine gun. 312 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: Was I remember the sound. The sound was as they 313 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: was falling in that grave, half dead, half life, the 314 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 1: little children screaming, people was benching to God. Well the 315 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: woman was screaming and yelling and crying. It is a mess, 316 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 1: you know. That was just like, what what can I feel? 317 00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: I feel nothing? Ella, the young woman who seen sucers 318 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: shoot at people in the ghetto, was driven to the 319 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: pits on December eight, when thousands of Jews were murdered. 320 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: Secrets was among the commandos who cleared the ghetto and 321 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: forced the Jews to the pits. There they were ordered 322 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: into the trenches, shot in rows. Mothers were ordered to 323 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: hold their infants in the air and both were executed 324 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 1: at close range. Some were buried alive. Ella watched as 325 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: her fellow Jews prepared for their desks. The people seemed 326 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: indifferent to their surroundings. They were holding each other, suffering 327 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: from the bitter cold, crying and saying goodbye. Relatives and 328 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: friends were standing together. From the front, we could hear 329 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: veiling and crying, which created a terrible hun a drone. 330 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: There were many women with babies crying in their arms, 331 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 1: as though they also sensed their impending death. Children took 332 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: hold of the clothing of their mothers, grandmothers, and grandfathers 333 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 1: seeking protection. There are no words to describe the tragedy. 334 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: Ella actually managed to escape the pits by claiming she 335 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: wasn't Jewish. A guard let her stand to the side. 336 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: She listened to the shots ring out until they began 337 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: to die off. Finally, she was brought to a car 338 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: told to get inside. The Germans began to leave. The 339 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,959 Speaker 1: door of the car opened and Zuker sat down at 340 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: the veal. He turned on the lights in the car 341 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: and peered back at us. For a few seconds, he 342 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: stared at me. I was frightened that he might recognize me. 343 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: I remembered his assertion that I didn't look Jewish at all, 344 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: that I would live a better life somewhere in the 345 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: city like other people, or go to the country. But 346 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: this time Zucker said nothing. He started the engine and 347 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: they left that horrible place. He did not betray me. 348 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: So suckers saved the life of this young Jewish woman, 349 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 1: and she wasn't the only one. Once in a while, 350 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: as the killing went on, he would pick out a 351 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: Jew almost at random and helped him escape. Why why 352 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: did the butcher kill some of his neighbors and spare others? 353 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: I read through the testimonies looking for a clue. Maybe 354 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: he did it for the money, but there was no 355 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: record of him asking for any Maybe he only saved 356 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: young women, but no, he actually spared at least one 357 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: Jewish Man, a doctor he'd known before the war. So 358 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: what was it? The testimonies did answer one question for me. 359 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: Clearly Zukers was guilty, So why did he still have 360 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: the enders? I found half a dozen eyewitnesses to his actions, 361 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: and later I came across statements from fellow Latvians in 362 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: his commando unit. They confirmed he had been part of 363 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: the massacres. But again, why, I went through other possibilities. 364 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: Maybe he'd always been an anti Semit and just hit 365 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: it till the Nazis came. Maybe the Germans forced him 366 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: to kill. That was the explanation of many non Germans 367 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: who murdered Jews during the war. Maybe that was part 368 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: of the answer. But then I'd read a testimony talking 369 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: about how the butcher seemed to enjoy killing. There was 370 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: more than one. It just didn't fit the idea that 371 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,360 Speaker 1: he was forced to do anything, So I had no answers. 372 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: Even the survivors and their testimonies couldn't give a reason. 373 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: Most of them, they were as baffled as I was. 374 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: Maybe there were others who fit this pattern, friendly towards 375 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,360 Speaker 1: Jews before the war, joined in the maskers, but save 376 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: the occasional victim. Maybe there were historians who had found 377 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: killers like this and that would help give some insight 378 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: into Zukers. I made some calls, and I was able 379 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: to track down and speak to two people who shared 380 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 1: with me some crucial insights. I'll play you some of 381 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: those tapes a little later in a future episode. It 382 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: was a start, a way to get inside Suker's mind. 383 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 1: So the war ends, Suker survived it without being thrown 384 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 1: into a pow camp. He was detained briefly by the U. 385 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: S Army, but his name was not on any list 386 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: of perpetrators at that point, so he was let go. 387 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: Then in he and his family sailed for Brazil. They 388 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: had almost no money. When the family arrived, Zukers was 389 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: forced to build a makeshift house on a real beach 390 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: to give them somewhere to live. But he was a 391 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: hard worker. He built small boats to rent a tourists 392 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 1: and his business crew. He came a success. He even 393 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: told people he'd hid shows when the Nazis had come 394 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: to Latvia, that he'd risked his life to save a 395 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 1: young woman named Miriam. In fact, he brought her to Brazil. 396 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: He took Miriam around, showed her off to his new friends. 397 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 1: Resilient Jews were moved. He was a hero who had 398 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 1: protected their brothers and sisters when they were being hunted. 399 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: Jos and Rio, two parties for Zukers, invited him to 400 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:30,120 Speaker 1: their homes, even gave him money. As for Miriam, it's 401 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: likely she was the same woman that Sasha Semonov had 402 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 1: seen in his family's apartment. Sukers had saved her life, 403 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,199 Speaker 1: but he also abused and humiliated her. The young Jewish 404 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: girl had become his mistress and sex slave. By the 405 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: Butcher was living well. His business was making money, his 406 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: children were thriving, and he had friends all over the city. 407 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: If he'd kept his mouth shut, he just lived his life, 408 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: It's unlikely anyone would have ever bothered him. Then he 409 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: did something stupid, like really stupid. A popular Brazilian magazine 410 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: named Okrazero asked Suckers if they could write a profile 411 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: of him. They were impressed with his story. He was 412 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: an immigrant who had made good in Brazil. People love 413 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: those kinds of stories. They were also impressed with his family. 414 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: His bronzed children could be seen water skiing on the 415 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: lakes around sal Paolo. Zuker's proved Brazil was the land 416 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: of dreams. Of course, Zuker should have said no, he 417 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: was a war criminal, but he was tempted and eventually 418 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: he agreed. He gave the interview, using his real name. 419 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: In it, he talked about his rags to riches story. 420 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: Who were pictures of him and his good looking children 421 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: water skiing, looking like movie stars. The magazine came out 422 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: on June. It landed on the coffee tables of middle 423 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: class homes throughout Brazil, in shops everywhere. Basically, most Brazilians 424 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: read the story and thought, Wow, what a cool guy. 425 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: He came to this country with nothing, and now look 426 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: at him, he's thriving. But there were a few people 427 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: who read the piece differently. They were Jewish. They knew 428 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: the name Herbert Zukers, and they knew the real story 429 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: behind it, this whole episode with a magazine interview. It's 430 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: just bizarre to me. What was Zuker's thinking. Nazis who 431 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: escaped to South America, they kept their heads down, they 432 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: changed their names, they did anything they could to avoid attention. 433 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: But here was Zuker's parading around like he was another 434 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: Oscar Schindler. It was almost schizophrenic. Did Zukers really believe 435 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: the stories he was telling of saving Jews? Why did 436 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: he seek how publicity when it could only bring him 437 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: closer to danger. I kept coming back to that name. 438 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: Herbert Sukers was so proud of what he'd achieved before 439 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: the war. He loved being the Latvian Lindburgh. He really 440 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: thought of himself as this historical figure, and if he 441 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: changed his name, all of that would go away, the 442 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: aviation awards, the headlines, the fame. He wouldn't be able 443 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: to tell anyone about these amazing things he'd done in 444 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: his twenties and thirties. So he couldn't be safe and 445 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: be Herbert Sukers at the same time. And eventually he 446 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: chose to keep the name. He was willing to risk 447 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: his life in order to be admired, and loved it. 448 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: Was madness, but he took the risk and it was 449 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: paying off once again. He was a hero who cared 450 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: if he told some lies along the way. For Zukers, 451 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: it was the attention that mattered. He wanted to be adored. 452 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: But then the rumors started, rumors about atrocities, the machine guns, 453 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: the ghetto and Riga. First, that's all they were gossip. 454 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: There were no cell phone cameras to take a quick 455 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: picture of him. Compare it with the Butcher of Latvia. 456 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: There was no Google to look up his past. By chance, 457 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: Zukers had chosen the right country to live in in 458 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties. There were almost no Latvian Jews in Rio, 459 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: no eyewitnesses to his crimes, no one who'd known him 460 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: as a boy and had watched him transform into a killer. 461 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: How would the survivors who knew about his monstrosities find 462 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: Suckers and prove he was the Butcher of Latvia? And 463 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: how would they do that without spooking him. Zukers had 464 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: escaped justice once after the war. He was a resourceful, 465 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: a narcissist and a very good actor. Masada knew some 466 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: of this. They had studied the reports of survivors and 467 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: the articles on his flights before the war. All those 468 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: details were given to Mio as he prepared himself to 469 00:31:52,680 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: meet and hopefully outwit the Butcher. Mio knew he would 470 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: probably only get one shot. With the target as paranoid 471 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: as Sukers was, he would have to be careful about 472 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,959 Speaker 1: how he went after him. The worry was Zukers might 473 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: feel the spies on his trail then disappear. This time 474 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: for good, Neo's cover would have to be airtight. He 475 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: couldn't let his jewishness show. He couldn't alert Suckers in 476 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: any way. After the meeting with Your Reeve, Neo started 477 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: creating his cover. We'll talk about that in the next episode. 478 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: But years before he set out, there had actually been 479 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: another mission to Brazil. Another group of Nazi hunters, many 480 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: of them Holocaust survivors, had gone looking for the killer. 481 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: They wanted to find out whether this Herbert Sukers was 482 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: really the Butcher of Latvia. It was essential to prove 483 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: his identity. Targeting an innocent man. That would be a 484 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: terrible injustice. It would also make the hunters look like 485 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: criminals themselves, damaging the cause. So the first thing Nazi 486 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: Hunters had to do to verify beyond a doubt their 487 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: target was really the right man, but with Herbert Suckers, 488 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: that was going to be much harder than anyone expected. 489 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: Good Assassins Hunting the Butcher is a production of Diversion 490 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio. This season is 491 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: written and hosted by Stephen Toulting, produced and directed by 492 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: Scott Waxman and Jacob Bronstein. Executive producers Scott Waxman and 493 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: Mark Francis. Story editing by Jacob Bronstein, with editorial direction 494 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: from Scott Waxman and Mangesh At Ticket or Editing, mixing 495 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: and sound designed by Mark Francis, with the voices of 496 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: Nick Afka, Thomas Armory, Angle, Andrew Polk, Mindy Escobar, Leants, 497 00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: Steve Routman and Stefan Rudnitsky. Theme music by Tyler Cash. 498 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: Archival research by Adam Shapiro. Special thanks to or In 499 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 1: Rosenbaum at ut A Diversion Podcasts