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Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel, I know you're a big fan of aliens. Well,

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Speaker 1: I haven't met them yet, but yeah, I'm looking forward

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Speaker 1: to it, right, But I wonder if you've really thought

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Speaker 1: it through them. What do you mean, I'm all set,

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Speaker 1: I haven't aliens have arrived. Go bag already packed? Really,

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Speaker 1: what's in it? An emergency kid and some bottled water

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Speaker 1: and toilet paper. Toilet paper? Good, idea hold on them

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Speaker 1: and put that in my lady, you're gonna eat that

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Speaker 1: if the aliens come. I guess all I'm saying is

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Speaker 1: that you don't really know how friendly these aliens are

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Speaker 1: ever going to be. Well, that's why I want to

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Speaker 1: meet the aliens. But I don't want to be the

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Speaker 1: first human to meet the aliens. Oh, I see. You

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Speaker 1: want to wait until that's even the first group of humans.

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Speaker 1: Then you want to talk to them when they're full.

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Speaker 1: That's my plan. I want to be dessert, not appetizer.

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Speaker 1: You don't want to be the aperitie. Instead, I want

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Speaker 1: to be the post dinner conversation. That's my plan. So

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Speaker 1: you can be the dessert. I'll be the one that

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Speaker 1: chills out with them. I am more handmay cartoonists and

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Speaker 1: the creator of PhD Comics. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a

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Speaker 1: particle physicist and I'm happy to be any part of

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Speaker 1: dinner with aliens. I think you're just very sweet, Daniel.

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Speaker 1: So you make a good dessert. I can be salty.

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Speaker 1: Watch out, well, I could be wanted those desserts. It's

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Speaker 1: savory and sweet. That's right. Would you like to meet Daniel.

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Speaker 1: He's a particle physicist and he's ummmy flavored. And they're

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Speaker 1: gonna be like, no, thanks, get me some cartoonists please.

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Speaker 1: They're much more out of shape. They're softer. But welcome

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Speaker 1: to our podcast. Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a

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Speaker 1: production of Heart Radio in which we take stock of

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Speaker 1: the shape of the universe. How squishy is it, how firm,

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Speaker 1: how fit is it? And how deep is our understanding

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Speaker 1: of the fundamental nature of this reality. We take you

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Speaker 1: on a tour of every being that's out there. From

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Speaker 1: the very biggest, oldest, most ancient questions about the nature

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Speaker 1: of this bizarre cosmos, we find ourselves into the newest,

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Speaker 1: freshest exploration of the tiniest particles that make up this reality.

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Speaker 1: That's right. We'd like to talk about all the delicious

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Speaker 1: and amazing facts about physics that are out there for

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Speaker 1: humans to discover and wonder about and feel amazed about.

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Speaker 1: But we also like to talk about the possible theories,

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Speaker 1: the maybes that are out there, the amazing possibilities that

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Speaker 1: are waiting for us to discover. That's right, because exploring

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Speaker 1: the universe requires a lot of creativity. We don't just

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Speaker 1: go out there and ask the universe, hey, tell us

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Speaker 1: how things work. We have to discover it. We have

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Speaker 1: to put together a story that explains all of the

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Speaker 1: clues that we have found, and that sometimes requires a

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Speaker 1: lot of mind bending creativity about what might be going on. Yeah, Daniel,

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Speaker 1: I wonder if there's a job out there where you

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Speaker 1: have to just think of possibilities about the universe and

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Speaker 1: think of interesting scenariosm and what could happen. That's called

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Speaker 1: theoretical physicist exactly make up. Yeah, you go. I wonder

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Speaker 1: if the universe works this way, what would that mean

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Speaker 1: and how would we check? Or like, how can I

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Speaker 1: tell a story about the universe that we'ves together all

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Speaker 1: these weird experiments that we've seen. It's all about coming

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Speaker 1: up with a narrative. I think that narratives are a

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Speaker 1: deep part of the way the humans think, and that's

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Speaker 1: essentially what science is. Trying to tell a story about

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Speaker 1: all the experiences we've had, and you get paid for it.

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Speaker 1: If you can get the job, you get paid for it.

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Speaker 1: You're also welcome to do theoretical physics on your own

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Speaker 1: time as an amateur. Interesting like a non paid theoretical physicist.

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Speaker 1: Can I put that in a business card? I think

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Speaker 1: that almost everybody who listens to this podcast is a

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Speaker 1: nonpaid theoretical physicist, because you guys like to think about

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Speaker 1: the nature of the universe, and you email me lots

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Speaker 1: of fun ideas about how the universe might work. So

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Speaker 1: in some sense, we are all theoretical physicists paid or not. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: even children, I guess you know. Children are trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out the world and trying to figure out what

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Speaker 1: the rules are, and that's basically what physicists are, right children.

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Speaker 1: This is our children that never stopped asking those questions exactly.

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Speaker 1: So on the podcast, we like to talk about the

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Speaker 1: theories that are out there and also the facts that

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Speaker 1: scientists have discovered, but we also like to delve into

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Speaker 1: the fictional side of science, in particular science fiction that's right.

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Speaker 1: I'm an avid reader of science fiction because while I

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Speaker 1: do enjoy our universe, I also like thinking about other

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Speaker 1: ways that the universe might be. And I think it's

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Speaker 1: really important for a scientist to sort of stretch their

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Speaker 1: minds a little bit and imagine that the universe might

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Speaker 1: be quite different from the ones that we think it

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Speaker 1: is today, because lots of times in the history of

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Speaker 1: science we have had to do exactly that, to toss

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Speaker 1: out our conceptions of how the universe works and accept

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Speaker 1: a completely different story that makes us feel really different

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Speaker 1: about the nature of humanity and our context and what

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Speaker 1: it means to be alive. And one great way to

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Speaker 1: do that is to have somebody else do that thinking

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Speaker 1: for you. My reading science fiction novels. Yeah, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: they're right, sort of right, Like sometimes they posit crazy

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Speaker 1: scenarios and they turn to be true, right, like the

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Speaker 1: internet was in the internet, or satellites one of those technologies.

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Speaker 1: Didn't those come from a science fiction novel? Yeah? I

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Speaker 1: think there are lots of example there, and they're not independent. Right.

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Speaker 1: I'm not the only scientists who read science fiction. And

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Speaker 1: so if you're a scientist and you read science fiction,

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Speaker 1: you go, oh, that's a cool idea. Let's make that real.

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Speaker 1: Then sometimes that happens and people start to work on

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Speaker 1: projects because they read about it in a novel. So

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Speaker 1: science fiction authors out there, you may be controlling the

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Speaker 1: future direction of human progress. Are they technically theoretical theoretical

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Speaker 1: physicists then, or imaginary theoretical physicists? How would you name them?

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Speaker 1: They are creative directors of theoretical physics. There you go,

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Speaker 1: the most important job obviously. Yeah. So we like to

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Speaker 1: talk about science fiction, and we like to interview science

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Speaker 1: fiction authors on the podcast and to talk about this

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Speaker 1: unique combination of physics and art. And speaking of this

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Speaker 1: interesting interplay between physics and r Daniel, you recently had

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Speaker 1: a great conversation with some physicists and artists that are

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Speaker 1: collaborating on a special project. That's right. As you may know.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a great idea for a scientist to

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Speaker 1: reach out and collaborate with people in the artistic creative community,

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Speaker 1: not just to benefit from their ideas, but to work

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Speaker 1: together as a way to communicate science. Is a way

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Speaker 1: to sort of make science more accessible. You and I

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Speaker 1: have had a lot of fun doing that, and I

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Speaker 1: recently ran across another pair of physicists and an artist

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Speaker 1: who used to be a mechanical engineer working on a

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Speaker 1: fun project together. Oh my goodness, it's like an alternate

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Speaker 1: universe version of us. Should we write a science which

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Speaker 1: novel about that is pretty implausible? Are they the anti

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Speaker 1: version of it? Are they like the cool, funny, attractive

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Speaker 1: versions of us? And if we touch them, we're all

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Speaker 1: going to annihilate each other. Well, they're definitely younger than

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Speaker 1: we are. I won't comment on our relative attractiveness. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you talked to him and they have a great

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Speaker 1: project that's going live pretty soon. That's right. So here's

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Speaker 1: a short conversation I had with Sophia gat Nasser, physicist

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Speaker 1: and Katherine Matchin, a space artist. So then it's my

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Speaker 1: pleasure to welcome too friends to the podcast. Sofia gad

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Speaker 1: Nezer and Catherine Machen Welcome. Can you guys begin by

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Speaker 1: introducing yourselves, tell us a little bit about you and

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Speaker 1: how you guys got to work together, Sofia, Yeah, so um,

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Speaker 1: I am a PhD candidate at the University of California

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Speaker 1: in Irvine, so I know you very well. Dane one

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Speaker 1: of the most awesome professors at the school. What I

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Speaker 1: do is like cosmology, sort of like astroparticle theory type

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Speaker 1: stuff with simulations. I work on dark matter, particularly, although

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Speaker 1: I'm interested in many other things, like you know, dark

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Speaker 1: energy and stuff like that, and inflation also is something

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Speaker 1: that I'm interested in. But like, my current project is

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Speaker 1: working on taking dark matter halos and using them to

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Speaker 1: explain how the seeds for super massive black hole were

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Speaker 1: formed in the early WHOA, very cool? So do you

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Speaker 1: think that dark matter haloes can't explain how we got

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Speaker 1: supermassive black holes so early in the universe. It really

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Speaker 1: depends on the model. It's highly dependent on the model,

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Speaker 1: Like certain models would not be able to do it,

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Speaker 1: and so if you have self interactions that's a consequence

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Speaker 1: of it, and so it's entirely model dependent. Very cool,

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Speaker 1: Very cool. And Catherine, I'm Kat. I'm a deep space

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Speaker 1: artist currently based in Sydney, Australia, but I get around

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Speaker 1: a little bit and I've been making basically anything related

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Speaker 1: space artwork over the last five years. But prior to that,

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Speaker 1: I made video games for a living my real job,

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Speaker 1: I like to call it. And I actually studied mechanical

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Speaker 1: engineering as a degree, and uh, that definitely didn't suit me, because, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was too creative in a way for the rigidity

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Speaker 1: of engineering. So well, I am a big fan of

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Speaker 1: collaborations between physicists and artists, actually artists who were once engineers,

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Speaker 1: as Jorge was a mechanical engineer once as well. But

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Speaker 1: tell me how you guys darted working together and what

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Speaker 1: you guys have in store for us. And we've both

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Speaker 1: been prevalent in like the online science Steam community as

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Speaker 1: far as I content, Yeah, I get some steam on

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Speaker 1: the go. Um. I just getting people excited about space generally.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to get people to connect to the universe

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Speaker 1: in the same way that Sofia is trying to pick

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Speaker 1: it apart. And we're just trying to share as much

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Speaker 1: as possible, and our paths inevitably crossed when I joined

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Speaker 1: Twitter a couple of years ago and I just found

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Speaker 1: Sofia and it just was enthralled by all her content.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've been doing this for about five years now,

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Speaker 1: and a couple of years ago I reached out to

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Speaker 1: actually was it a year ago? I reached out to you,

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Speaker 1: Sofia and said, I really like to draw some book

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Speaker 1: dark matter stuff if you could tell me how it

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Speaker 1: works and then try and visualize some of her research

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Speaker 1: a year ago. That's happy anniversary, baby. But you just

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Speaker 1: can't find, you know, I mean unless you go to

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Speaker 1: very specific space artists, of which there are not that many.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you go into any store, any gallery,

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Speaker 1: you know, the one thing you won't find is beautiful

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Speaker 1: pictures of the cosmos or beautiful pictures that describe, like

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Speaker 1: you know, dark matter and its interactions and nothing. You know,

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Speaker 1: you'll find a lot of abstracts and landscapes and bowls

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Speaker 1: of fruit. And that is obviously some people's cups of tea.

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Speaker 1: But there's a lot of us out there that we

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Speaker 1: want stuff on our walls that actually means something to

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Speaker 1: us and gives us the chills because it reminds us

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Speaker 1: that we're part of this incredible phenomenal universe. I mean,

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Speaker 1: maybe someone gets that from a bowl of bananas, but

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Speaker 1: don't discampananas. So what do you guys have planned? What

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Speaker 1: do you guys putting together? Can people expect to see?

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Speaker 1: We're basically putting together a series of really high quality,

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Speaker 1: like very luxurious artwork prints based on Sophia's research and

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Speaker 1: other aspects of dark matter that you know, she's very

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Speaker 1: fascinated with, and also they're still also involved in my research. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so we're creating a series of these artworks and then

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Speaker 1: making them available to the public to purchase, and obviously

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Speaker 1: they can go into the store order them, but it's

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Speaker 1: only open for three days, so it is a very

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Speaker 1: short span. But you know, we hope to maybe do

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Speaker 1: something like this again in future, because I think what

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Speaker 1: I realized is the overwhelming amount of support from the

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Speaker 1: public that, like I, have been desperate to get something

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Speaker 1: like this, and no one's doing it, and even if

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Speaker 1: there is a visualization available, it might not be guided

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Speaker 1: by science. It's really special because it's not a simulation.

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Speaker 1: A simulation is based on literal, fundamental equations and sort

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Speaker 1: of turnout like if you have everything right as you think,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, at least right with whatever model

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Speaker 1: you're using, it will turn out a certain way. But

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Speaker 1: this is so much more beautiful because you get an

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Speaker 1: extra touch of creativity from the art that goes into it.

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Speaker 1: And so what I want people to take away from

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Speaker 1: this is I want them to take away the science

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Speaker 1: and the creativity that it takes to put together something

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Speaker 1: that is abstract that you have visualized before where you're

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Speaker 1: using like physics, and then you're trying to sort of

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Speaker 1: use an interpretation of what that would look like and

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Speaker 1: put it on paper, and it's a really beautiful thing.

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Speaker 1: So I so what I want people to take away

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Speaker 1: from that is that as well as to support and

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Speaker 1: bring you know, to a forefront steam like the merging

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Speaker 1: of science and art together, because I think it's super

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Speaker 1: important that we move in that direction. Wonderful. Totally agree.

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Speaker 1: So I know that you guys had something open in

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Speaker 1: June by the time folks are here in this podcast

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Speaker 1: that will have clothes already. Let people know where they

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Speaker 1: might be able to find and your future works and

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Speaker 1: collaborations if they go online, which they type in the Google.

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Speaker 1: I think that it's pertinent just to go to all

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Speaker 1: our social media channels because everything is really linked there

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Speaker 1: and obviously the specific you or else do change every

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Speaker 1: time we run something, so um, but I would definitely

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Speaker 1: head over there Astro Party Girl and at Katherine ma

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Speaker 1: Chin which is dreadfully hard to spell, so probably just

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Speaker 1: google it and it will try and recorrect it. For

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Speaker 1: I wanted those names, and my mom was like, I

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Speaker 1: would like you to be unique, and I spend my

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Speaker 1: whole life trying to spell it to people. You know. Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll put links to your social profiles in the show

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Speaker 1: notes so people can find it there. Thanks to both

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Speaker 1: of you for coming on and telling us about it,

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Speaker 1: and congrats on your awesome new collaboration. Can't wait to

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Speaker 1: see what you guys put together. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for having us all Right, pretty cool. I like that

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Speaker 1: she's a space artist. Does that mean she does art

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Speaker 1: in space or her artist space or well, she had

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Speaker 1: a zoom background, so I couldn't tell if she was

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Speaker 1: on the International Space Station at the time or just

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Speaker 1: in Australia, which I think it was equidistant for me anyway,

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Speaker 1: so it's just as alien really, who knows. Maybe she

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Speaker 1: was in her art space. Yeah, but it was pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: She told me that five years ago she didn't even

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Speaker 1: know how to paint, and now she makes a living

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Speaker 1: as a space artist. She used to work in video games.

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Speaker 1: She has a background as a mechanical engineer. So it

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Speaker 1: just goes to show you that people's lives can't take turns,

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Speaker 1: and you can start out in one field and end

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Speaker 1: up being quite successful in another. As you well know,

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Speaker 1: anyone can be a space artist. You just need a

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Speaker 1: little space and some art. But anyways, back to our

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Speaker 1: conversation about science fiction and how they really expand our

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Speaker 1: minds about what's possible and what could be out there

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Speaker 1: in the universe and what would happen if we run

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Speaker 1: into some of these amazing things. We have today a

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Speaker 1: pretty interesting interview with a new author. Right, that's right.

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Speaker 1: This is a science fiction book by debut author just

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Speaker 1: broke into the scene, and a really fantastic book, and

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Speaker 1: it takes a sort of a new look at the

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Speaker 1: idea of first contact, what it would be like if

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Speaker 1: aliens came to Earth? Right? And does it have a

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Speaker 1: happy ending? I'm not going to ruin it for you,

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Speaker 1: but there's definitely a lot of suffering along the way,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's what makes it feel real. All right? Well,

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Speaker 1: then today on the podcast, we'll be talking about the

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Speaker 1: science fiction universe of cat Will turn Rolls the lesson.

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Speaker 1: It's right, it's a super fun book, and I don't

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Speaker 1: want to give it with the ending, but I guess

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Speaker 1: I'll just say that it's unlikely that Disney is going

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Speaker 1: to option this for a family movie. What about Disney

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Speaker 1: plus I think Fox owns Disney now, right, can it

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Speaker 1: be like a Marvel movie. I don't have to be

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Speaker 1: Disney like plus plus plus I think Disney x Disney Max. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the book is called The Lesson and it's a

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Speaker 1: science fick and novel and the author's name again is

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Speaker 1: cat Will Turnbull. And it's a pretty interesting novel because

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Speaker 1: you're saying it kind of re imagines first contact, right,

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Speaker 1: because I guess usually first contact still worries are either

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Speaker 1: really good or really bad. Right. There's the et version

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Speaker 1: where the aliens are friendly, and then there's the Independence

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Speaker 1: Day version where the aliens are just here to destroyers. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: And it reimagined it in several ways. You know, usually

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Speaker 1: when the aliens come, they like land on the lawn

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Speaker 1: of the White House, or attack New York City or

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Speaker 1: something here. Instead, he centers the aliens in the Virgin Islands,

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Speaker 1: not in like the financial or population or political center

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Speaker 1: of the United States or of the world, but in

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Speaker 1: this sort of like off the beaten path place. And

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Speaker 1: he does something really cool with it, which is that

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Speaker 1: he uses the arrival of aliens to sort of cast

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Speaker 1: a light on or make us think more deeply about

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Speaker 1: something that already exists in our society, and that's the

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Speaker 1: sort of colonial power structure. And he's from the Virgin Islands,

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Speaker 1: so he knows a lot about the history and the

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Speaker 1: you know, colonial mistakes that were made in the waves

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Speaker 1: of the you know, the Spanish and the Danish and

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Speaker 1: then the Americans sort of coming and taking over and

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Speaker 1: making use of it for themselves. And so he imagines

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Speaker 1: this alien arrival sort of like the latest in waves

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Speaker 1: of colonization of the Virgin Islands. That's pretty cool. I

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Speaker 1: guess if I was an alien, I would also land

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Speaker 1: in a tropical paradise, probably like it in New York City.

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Speaker 1: It's terrible there in the winter. Well maybe for an alien,

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Speaker 1: New York City is a tropical paradise, right, maybe they

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Speaker 1: like to lounge on the beaches covered with snow. You know,

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Speaker 1: who knows where they're alien planet is like, right, I

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Speaker 1: guess New Yorkers are pretty um exotic. They are, in fact.

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Speaker 1: And the cool thing is that he imagines this spaceship

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Speaker 1: itself also sort of looks like a shell, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not like some weird mechanical object or even like

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Speaker 1: a tic tac like we've seen in those Navy UFO videos.

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Speaker 1: It looks like a shell. It's like a massive seashell

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Speaker 1: descends and hangs out on the top of a mountain

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Speaker 1: and the Virgin islands. Interesting, like a giant clamshell. No,

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Speaker 1: more like a nautilus shell, one of those like round

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Speaker 1: ones with the many loops in it, like the kind

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Speaker 1: of spirally. Oh, that's pretty cool. And that's how they land.

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Speaker 1: It's like it floats, it lands, it crashes, what does

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Speaker 1: it do? It gently floats and lands on the top.

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Speaker 1: And then the aliens come out and they greet humanity

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Speaker 1: and they come bearing gifts. Initially, obviously, these aliens are

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Speaker 1: much more technologically advanced than we are because they can

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Speaker 1: get here from where they came from, and they have

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Speaker 1: very powerful technology. And initially they're just like bestowing gifts.

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Speaker 1: You know. They cure diseases, and they give us technology,

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Speaker 1: and they solve our energy problems and all sorts of stuff. Interesting.

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Speaker 1: They bring good things at first, they do. They're like

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Speaker 1: dinner party guests, you know, they show up with chocolates

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Speaker 1: and wine and everything. They have very good manners in

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Speaker 1: the beginning. And these aliens have a name, right the

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Speaker 1: aliens of the name. They're called the Inna. It's spelled

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Speaker 1: y n a a and pronounced the ina. And they

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Speaker 1: sort of can look like humans underneath, there's something different,

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Speaker 1: right they but they can sort of like put on

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Speaker 1: this facade so they look more human, but they never

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Speaker 1: quite human. They're always like a little bit weird, a

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Speaker 1: little bit different. You can tell when one of them

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Speaker 1: is around. They don't blend in perfectly smoothly into the

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Speaker 1: human population like New Yorkers. Basically, I'm gonna leave that alone.

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Speaker 1: But it's like a costume, like a hologram or like

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Speaker 1: are they like piloting you know, human like you know,

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Speaker 1: bio robots. So they have this technology in them called reefs,

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Speaker 1: which are like little nano robots which they can use

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Speaker 1: to you know, repair their bodies or make their bodies

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Speaker 1: look different, or controller bodies in all sorts of ways,

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Speaker 1: and the sort of under mental control. And so they

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Speaker 1: have this technology where they can basically sheath themselves and

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Speaker 1: these nano robots to give themselves another appearance. And you know,

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Speaker 1: Cantabal I think is more interested in the emotional intellectual

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Speaker 1: response and the relationship that is built rather than like

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Speaker 1: the details of the technology of how this works. So

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Speaker 1: he glosses over that a little bit. He glosses over

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Speaker 1: how the technology works. All right. So there they come

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Speaker 1: in bearing gifts and they solve all of our problems.

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Speaker 1: But soon, um, things are not quite what they seem. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they are more powerful than we are, and they are

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Speaker 1: here for a reason, right, They're not just like on

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Speaker 1: a tour of beaches of the galaxy. They came looking

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Speaker 1: for something and they have their own interests. And you know,

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Speaker 1: when a more powerful visitor comes to your shores wanting

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Speaker 1: something your resources or something from your civilization, then they

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Speaker 1: do what they need to to get it. And that's

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Speaker 1: sort of the history of the Virgin Islands. You know.

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Speaker 1: People come and they take advantage of the resources and

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Speaker 1: the opportunities that are there. And so when the interests

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Speaker 1: of the humans and the ena conflict, then the humans

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Speaker 1: find out what happens, which is that the Nail respond

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Speaker 1: with casual but overwhelming violence. Wow, they're salty, and they

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Speaker 1: are salty. They're sweet and salty, that's right. As we

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Speaker 1: meet more of the Email, we find some of them

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Speaker 1: are less interested in being friendly with the humans and

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Speaker 1: even like casual disrespect, you know, stepping in front of

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Speaker 1: them or brushing against them can be met with violence,

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Speaker 1: like being torn in half. And it becomes pretty clear

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Speaker 1: that the Inna don't see the humans as equals. They

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Speaker 1: see them sort of lookin to the way we see

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Speaker 1: dogs or cows. You know, they're like, they're they're fine.

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Speaker 1: You want to keep them half be if it's convenient,

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Speaker 1: but as soon as it's inconvenient or annoying, you know,

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Speaker 1: you don't think about their rights. We're just like means

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Speaker 1: to an end for them, we are means to an end.

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Speaker 1: And again, there's a really nice sort of parallel here

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Speaker 1: to colonial structures, right. You know when colonists come sometimes

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Speaker 1: they have a very patronizing attitude like we're gonna bring

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Speaker 1: new technology and we're gonna bring our culture, and this

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Speaker 1: is gonna be good for everybody. But really it's just

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Speaker 1: good for the colonists, right. They think they're there to

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Speaker 1: save the people that are already there. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So that's meant to sort of mirror the colonial history

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Speaker 1: of the Virgin Islands kind of. Yeah, as a lot

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Speaker 1: of really good science fiction does, it's written in a

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Speaker 1: way to make us think about what's already going on

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Speaker 1: in our society by exaggerating it, by accentuating it, by

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Speaker 1: throwing a light on it, you know, from a science

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Speaker 1: fiction point of view. And so he does a great

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Speaker 1: job of doing that, and it's really interesting. He's a

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Speaker 1: he's a great writer. And a lot of the characters

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Speaker 1: respond in interesting ways, you know, some of them like

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Speaker 1: rebel against the Ina, and some of them are collaborators,

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Speaker 1: they work with the Ina. Some of them even form

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Speaker 1: like romantic relations and ships with the alien. WHOA, So

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Speaker 1: I guess there's variation not just in the humans, but

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Speaker 1: maybe also in the aliens, Like some aliens fall in

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Speaker 1: love with the humans and some are maybe more sympathetic

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Speaker 1: and some less. Yeah, just like in every colonial story, right,

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Speaker 1: you have a whole spectrum of people with different attitudes

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Speaker 1: and different responses. So it's quite realistic and really quite engaging,

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Speaker 1: I stated reading this book. All Right, well, let's get

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Speaker 1: into the science of the Lesson by cut Will Turnbull

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Speaker 1: and then let's get to your interview with the author.

428
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 1: But first let's take a quick break. Alright, we're talking

429
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 1: about the science fiction universe of cat Will Turnbulls. The

430
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 1: Lesson debut science fiction novel kind of about colonialism, but

431
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 1: more like space colonialism exactly. Galactic colonialism. Galactic colonialism. Yeah,

432
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 1: I think that anytime you use that word, it doesn't

433
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 1: sound great. And this is sort of a topic that

434
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,880
Speaker 1: is in the conversation right now in our culture right now,

435
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: when we talk about going to Mars and maybe colonizing Mars,

436
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 1: there's people sort of on both sides of the issue

437
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 1: and saying that that's a good thing or that's a

438
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 1: bad thing, right, Yeah, exactly. People talk about the need

439
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,360
Speaker 1: to move humanity off of Earth, so we have our

440
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: eggs in more than one basket, but other folks think

441
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 1: that we shouldn't just treat the rest of the galaxy

442
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,199
Speaker 1: as like baskets for the taking places to put our eggs.

443
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 1: You know, there's a long history of human colonialism and

444
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 1: a lot of it has led to a lot of

445
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 1: pain and suffering, and a lot of mistakes were made

446
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 1: sort of in the interests of capitalism or the interest

447
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 1: of spreading our culture. So there are folks out there

448
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 1: who want us to take a pause and think about,

449
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: like should we let private companies like SpaceX lead the

450
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: way to Mars and build colonies on Mars and sort

451
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 1: of structure it in a explorational, colonial capitalistic way, or

452
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,199
Speaker 1: should we take a more measured approach. So there's a

453
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 1: lot of discussion on both sides of this issue, right,

454
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: And it's not just sort of about whether there are

455
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: aliens or Martians there on Mars that we will be

456
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 1: taking over. So I think it's more about sort of

457
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: preserving the Marsnis of Mars also, right, not sort of

458
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: like going there and just completely, you know, turning it

459
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 1: into Earth. Yeah, the question is, you know, are there

460
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,120
Speaker 1: martians on Mars And if we come and we aggressively

461
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: terraform it, could we be wiping out Martian life, which

462
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: would be scientifically a tragedy of course, but also from

463
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 1: the point of view of like the value of life,

464
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 1: could be effectively genocide of an entire new, potentially independent

465
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 1: form of life. And then there are people who take

466
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 1: it a step further and say, even if there isn't

467
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 1: life on Mars now, there could be life on Mars

468
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 1: in a million years, and if we go and we

469
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 1: turn into Earth, that could be preventing independent life on Mars.

470
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: So there's a whole fascinating spectrum of ideas there. There's

471
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 1: a lot of interesting subtleties there in real ethical and

472
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: moral decisions we should sort of make consciously rather than

473
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: just sort of like steamrolling because it sounds cool, rather

474
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: than just letting Ela Musk do whatever he wants. I

475
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: don't do you want him to be president of Mars.

476
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: I mean, he's done some cool stuff. I think he's

477
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 1: president of planet right now. Anyways, Another really interesting question

478
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: is the whether the same issues applied to exploration of

479
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 1: the Solar System and the galaxy as they did to

480
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: exploration of Earth. You know, a lot of colonialism and

481
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: conflict on Earth is born from limited resources. Everybody wants

482
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 1: gold or people are looking for places to grow crops

483
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: or etcetera, etcetera. But you know, when it comes to

484
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: the Solar System, it is so rich with resources. There's

485
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: so much water out there and platinum out there, and

486
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: so many planets. I'm not sure we necessarily need to

487
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,959
Speaker 1: fight over resources. Well, I think that's the dream, right

488
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 1: The dream is not just to get more, to get more.

489
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 1: The dream is to get more so that we stopped

490
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: fighting over more. Yeah. And one question that Kendbell raises

491
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: in his book is whether that's possible, whether species that

492
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: sort of came into existence out of conflict out of

493
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: this struggle for survival on the gravity well of one planet?

494
00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 1: Can ever break free from that and live in a

495
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,959
Speaker 1: poor scarcity society? In science fiction is a whole like

496
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: set of books that deal with like a post scarcity

497
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: society like Ian Banks culture novels where everybody has everything

498
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 1: they ever want and can get it instantly. What is

499
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: life like in that kind of utopian society? And then

500
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: folks who think that that's never going to happen. And

501
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: the humans are humans and we will always be fighting

502
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: even if we have you know, planet sized blobs of platinum,

503
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 1: there still will be people who want more or want

504
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 1: it all for themselves, right, Like, are our humans inherently greedy? Like?

505
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: Will never ever be enough? And maybe not? Right Like,

506
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: maybe there's something about humans that we'll always want more

507
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: than the other person. Yeah, Jeff Bezos is an argument

508
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: that humans will always be greedy and want more. Whoa, Well,

509
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: he's going to be an astronaut soon and he might

510
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: be president of Mars. Daniels watch out, what about what

511
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: do you say? Yeah? Well, I don't know if he's

512
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: a listener to this podcast, but if the president of

513
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: Mars is a race between Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos.

514
00:26:55,119 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: I might not even vote Daniel is your galactic duty? Well,

515
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: back to the novel, you know, that's something that he

516
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 1: focuses on. The name of the book is the lesson,

517
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: and the lesson. Without spoiling the book, I can tell

518
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 1: you that the lesson the Aliens come to teach us

519
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: is that there is always struggle, that every society has

520
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: to fight and struggle to survive. And then that's just

521
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: sort of the way of life. And as you hear

522
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: me talk to Cadwell about it in our interview, he

523
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: thinks that humanity will never be able to throw off

524
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: those shackles and change and grow into a utopian society,

525
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 1: even if we have mountains of platinum and you know,

526
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: entire planets of water for everybody. Interesting, Yeah, I guess,

527
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: you know, we like that's what life is, right. It's

528
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: a struggle, it's a competition. That's how it evolves. And

529
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 1: it's hard to turn that off. It is hard to

530
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 1: turn that off, I suppose. But you know, we live

531
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: differently now than we did a thousand years ago and

532
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: twenty tho years ago and fifty thou years ago, and

533
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 1: I have hope that humans can evolve, that we can

534
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: change the way we live, that we won't always be

535
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: struggling and have massive economic inequality. You know, I don't

536
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: want that if we become a space bearing species, that

537
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 1: I have one person owns and nine of the planets,

538
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: and you know, the rest of humanity is crowded onto

539
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: one little one. You know, that's sort of an extension

540
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: of the Jeff Bezos style gathering of resources. I hope

541
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: that we can, you know, lift everybody out of poverty.

542
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: That's the idea. But we'll see. I think the lesson

543
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: I'm learning here is how much you hate Jeff Begers. Daniel,

544
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: I had no idea, you see, the sort of the

545
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: pitome of evil these days for you. No, I don't

546
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: know the guy at all, But I don't understand why

547
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 1: anybody needs that much money. Well that's because you've never

548
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 1: had it, Daniel. I have never had it, exactly, and

549
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: in that situation, I don't know how I would act,

550
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: So I shouldn't judge the man. All right, Well, let's

551
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: get into some of the science in the lesson by

552
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: Capital Turnbull. There are a couple of interesting science technologies

553
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: here that he has in his book. There's this idea

554
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: of nanobots called reefs, and whether or not aliens can

555
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: even get here or whether you know, first contact is

556
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: a possibility for us, and if they come, what they

557
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: actually be superior to us or not. Yeah, I think

558
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: there's a lot of really interesting science here. One of

559
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: the coolest science fiction things he has in his book

560
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: are these things called reefs. So these are like little

561
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: nanobots that the aliens can control with their minds. So

562
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: they basically, you know, they tell them to enter human

563
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: body and repair it. For example, so when one alien

564
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: wants to help a human, they can just like send

565
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: these reefs sins they fix this problem, or that's how

566
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: they cure a lot of human diseases. They share these

567
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: little nanobots around and have them like go inside the

568
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: body and do little repairs, and that's pretty awesome. Of course,

569
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: it also has other consequences. I mean, if the aliens

570
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: have filled your body with nanobots under their control, they

571
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: can do things like you know, kill people at will,

572
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: because they basically are in total control of your bodily functions.

573
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: So not something I would necessarily sign up for. Yeah,

574
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: don't drink the nanobots exactly, but you know, is it realistic?

575
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: Could you actually do this? I mean I think this

576
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: is the kind of thing people are working on, you know,

577
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: synthetic immune systems, things like that, tiny little robots that

578
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: can find and attack cells. I don't know how you

579
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: would accomplish like actual like mind control of these robots,

580
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: telling them, coordinating them somehow to do things. But it

581
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: doesn't seem impossible to me. I mean, you're the engineer.

582
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: Tell me, do you think nano robots are the future? Well?

583
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: I always wonder if with anything robotics is like where

584
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: do they get their power? Like what you know, it

585
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: takes energy to move these things, for these things to

586
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: do things like do they have little tiny nano batteries?

587
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: Do you see that as being possible? Or how do

588
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: you recharge? Do you know what I mean? Or how

589
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: do you build them? That's another thing I always wonder about,

590
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: Like I guess if you have nano bots, then you

591
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: can have them build other nana bots. But how do

592
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: you build the first nana box. Maybe you need like

593
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: a microbot to build the nano bot, and you need

594
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: a millibot to build a microbots. You just get smaller

595
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: and I stop with nano or I guess maybe a

596
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: nano you start getting into atomic limits, like, are these

597
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: like robots with individual atoms? Yeah? Yeah, I suppose you

598
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: could build them out of individual atoms, but that would

599
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: limit their complexity in terms of the power. I always figured,

600
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: you know, they could power themselves the way our cells

601
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,479
Speaker 1: power themselves. Our cells don't have little batteries. They you know,

602
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: live along a flow of energy from our blood. So

603
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,479
Speaker 1: I figured, you know, nano bots could like sip energy

604
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: from our blood just the same way everything else does.

605
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: I mean, that's how I would design it. That's even

606
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: more terrifying. They sit inside you, sucking up your here blood. No,

607
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: it's like a diet. Now I can eat as much

608
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: as I want because the nanobots are using all the calories. Yeah,

609
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: but if the aliens want to eat is wouldn't that

610
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: be counter productive? Oh that's true? Yeah exactly. Maybe. Well,

611
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: I guess the other part is the mind control, Like

612
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: how would you transmit your thoughts to these things? And

613
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: I guess you need it like an amplifier, and then

614
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: how would you decode your thoughts? Does the book get

615
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: into any of that. It was just sort of magical.

616
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: It's just sort of left unspecified. I don't think it's

617
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: tended to be magical, But I don't think Cadwell's interest

618
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: was like figuring out the technical details of how that worked.

619
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: But you know, you could imagine you have a bout

620
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: the brain that can read your signals, and maybe they

621
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: don't have to be all directly controlled. You can like

622
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: pass messages from Nana bat to Nana bat. They have

623
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: effectively like our network, and so they can communicate sort

624
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: of like in lots of little leaps, perhaps so to

625
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: the way the internetworks. So, I mean, I don't have

626
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: a solution to this, but I imagine that it could

627
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: be possible. When I was reading this, I didn't think, oh,

628
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: that's implausible. It didn't take me out of the story.

629
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: I just thought, well, that would be pretty cool. I

630
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: guess as a physicist you're like, sure, why not. But

631
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,239
Speaker 1: maybe it's an engineer. Someone might be like, but how

632
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: do you make that work exactly? How are we going

633
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 1: to fix these things? How are we going to repair

634
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: these things? How we're going to produce software upgrades? You're like,

635
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: I'll leave it to the lesser beings, the engineers. Thanks

636
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: your words, all right, Well, the other little bit of

637
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: science here is about aliens coming to Earth and is

638
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: that realistic or not? Yeah, And this is a question

639
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: that really has popped up a lot recently because we've

640
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: seen these alien UFO videos and people are wondering, like,

641
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: is it even plausible for extraterrestrials to come to Earth?

642
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: You know, we know that there are a lot of

643
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: other planets out there that might potentially harbor life like

644
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: on Earth, but we don't know if there are any

645
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: near enough to come visit us because even the nearest

646
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: stars are pretty far away. The closest star to Earth

647
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: is almost four light years away, and any reasonable kind

648
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: of travel that's not FTL would take decades to get here,

649
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: and so exploring the galaxy feels like it would take

650
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: a long time. So without some sort of FTL travel

651
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: like a warp drive or a wormhole, it does seem

652
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: sort of implausible that aliens would come here, because how

653
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: would they even know that we are here? Our signals

654
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: have been broadcasted very far. We haven't put out very

655
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: powerful signals, so you have to be really near by

656
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: our solar system to even detect us to know we're here.

657
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: But FDL you mean faster than light, right, Yeah? Exactly,

658
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: because the galaxy is pretty big, the distances between stars

659
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: are large, and we have this speed limit of light speed,

660
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: and so without being able to go faster than light ftl,

661
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: it seems pretty difficult to explore the galaxy and find

662
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: all the glorious beaches for aliens to hang out on, right,

663
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: I guess one question I always have is why would

664
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: they come here? I mean, like, if the Solar System

665
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: is so full of resources and water and metals and

666
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: minerals and materials, Like, why even make a stop on

667
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: Earth with these you know, locals, Why not just like

668
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: take what they need from the Solar System and leave. Yeah,

669
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: that's a great question, and I can answer that question

670
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: about this book without spoiling it. But these aliens are

671
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: hunting for something specific, and they have been exploring the

672
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: galaxy for a long time without finding it, and they

673
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 1: think they might be able to find it on Earth.

674
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: And that's the reason they are here, which isn't revealed

675
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: until late to the book and super fascinating and pretty creative.

676
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: So I don't want to spoil it for our listeners,

677
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,919
Speaker 1: But it might be that Earth does have something rare.

678
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 1: You know, what if life is pretty rare in the galaxy.

679
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: Then Earth represents something like a jewel, you know, billions

680
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: of years of evolution working to solve a problem of

681
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: highly evolved complex little biological machines that are maybe otherwise

682
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: difficult to figure out. You can look at, evolution is

683
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: sort of like a big computation, you know, solving a

684
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: problem very slowly over billions of years, finding a solution

685
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 1: through all this repeated mutation and evaluation. In some sense,

686
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: it's extremely valuable information just to know, like, here's a

687
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: potential solution to the life problem. Yeah, and potentially delicious

688
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 1: as well, which is maybe the problem in this case.

689
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. I haven't read the book, but it

690
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: sort of seems like that's where here maybe leaning, But

691
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: I guess folks will have to read the book to

692
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: find out. Yes, folks will have to read the book.

693
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: All right, Well, then let's get to your interview with

694
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 1: author cat Will Turnbull, who wrote the book to The Lesson,

695
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: available now wherever you can find books. Here's Daniel's interview.

696
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: All right, So then it's my absolute pleasure to welcome

697
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,240
Speaker 1: to the podcast. Cadwell Turnbull, author of The Lesson, Welcome

698
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 1: to the podcast. Hey, yeah, I'm glad to be here.

699
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks very much for joining us. I really

700
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,280
Speaker 1: enjoyed your book. Congratulations, And I'd like to hear first

701
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: about how you got into science fiction writing or speculative fiction.

702
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about background, where you came from,

703
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: how this happened for you. So I grew up in

704
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: the Virgin Islands. I grew up once Si comments and

705
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: my mom was a science fiction nerd, but mostly films,

706
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: so she watched we had like a collection of our

707
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: Trek films. I had not watched any of the show,

708
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,240
Speaker 1: just the movies and a bunch of other like science

709
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 1: fiction movies. So you know, she had time tops I

710
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 1: would watch that with her serenity. Um, thank jeez, I'm

711
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: trying to I'm spacing on the name of this movie.

712
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: And I watched it like a million times Wow to

713
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: kick with my mom. It's um Dennis Quaid because the

714
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: guy that played Jesus. Is it the time Trouble one

715
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: where they communicate back and forth yes yes or something

716
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: frequency yes? So frequency was you know, another one. And

717
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 1: then we also with TV, we watched star Gate together.

718
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: And so when I was, you know, in high school,

719
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: I was really into start Gate as you one, and

720
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: that was the thing that I watched a lot, and

721
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 1: you know, I was the one that was watching it,

722
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: and my mom was said and watching me. So yeah,

723
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: that's how I got into you know, science fiction, you know,

724
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: in a in a general sense. But at school, you know,

725
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: in high school, they would occasionally assigned us to read

726
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: things that were science fiction adjacent, so like you know,

727
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: Great New World, and I always found those stories more

728
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: interesting than the more literary stories, and so I would

729
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: actually finish those books and be able to you know,

730
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: talk about them, and I would write about them for school.

731
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: And then once I got to college, I um, I

732
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: just started reading a lot of science fiction on my own,

733
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: you know, getting recommendations from friends in that on St.

734
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: Thomas that wasn't really like the community of science fiction readers,

735
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: and so it was whatever I stumbled across. And then

736
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 1: once I like you know, went to Pittsburgh for undergrads,

737
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: who met some other people that was into it, and

738
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: they gave me books to read. And so that's how

739
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 1: I got into the literature. You know. One of the

740
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: earlier books that a friend handed me was a lot

741
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 1: of Heaven Quinn and I love this so much, and

742
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: I just continued reading her books, and now she's like

743
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: my favorite author, she really favorite author to this thing wonderful. Well,

744
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: then I'd like to ask you some questions to sort

745
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: of orient you in the universe of science fiction authors.

746
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:27,959
Speaker 1: These are questions we ask all of our science fiction

747
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 1: author guests so we can sort of calibrate. So you're

748
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: very familiar with Star Trek and the technology there, what's

749
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: your opinion on the philosophical question of whether a Star

750
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: Trek transporter kills you and clones you, recreating you somewhere else,

751
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: or actually transports your very atoms to another location. Oh wow, Okay,

752
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: so this makes me think of It's not like the transporter,

753
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 1: but it makes me think of think like a dinosaur.

754
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: By Jim Kelly. It was a story that he wrote

755
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: in response to an older story called The Cold Equations.

756
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 1: It's about a teleportation machine. Got of I's you are

757
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 1: transferred to another place, but I'm gonna spoil the whole story.

758
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 1: What happens is that the machine actually, because you know,

759
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: the aliens that created don't believe in like creating more stuff,

760
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 1: You'll be copied and transported to that new place where

761
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: you'll be recreated and then that original version of you

762
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: will basically be murdered, you know. It's it's like the

763
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:30,240
Speaker 1: Prestige let, It's basic. I just love that story because

764
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 1: it asked that same question, right, It's like, it is

765
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 1: the person that is recreated on the other side you

766
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: or is that another you? And wouldn't matter to me

767
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 1: being copy? If my copy lives on, I'm dead, you know,

768
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: And I think you know, Star Trek I think tries to,

769
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 1: you know, hide that fact by the fact it's like

770
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: it's the same particles. But like even if you are

771
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: sit apart into particles and recreated in another environment, and

772
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: my suspicion is you died, you know, that's where my

773
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: mind goes. I have a pretty dark reading on it.

774
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 1: It's I don't think you can just like be blown

775
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: apart and pull back together. And that's the same contest,

776
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: that's the other right, So then would you be willing

777
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 1: to step into a Star Trek transporter somebody shows up

778
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: and says, hey, no more commuting for you. Would you

779
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: be willing to do that? Or is that essentially signing

780
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 1: up for your own murder? I think it's signed up

781
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 1: for my own murder. I think I like the idea

782
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: of a portal more than a teleporter, you know, like

783
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: two areas in space being connected by me from kind

784
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 1: of the right thing to walk through that makes me

785
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: feel like I'm not dead. But the teleporter, I think,

786
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: if it requires me to be blown apart and pull

787
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: back together, I am not for it. So then what

788
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 1: technology and science fiction would you like to most see

789
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: actually become reality? What should a scientists be working on?

790
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: What's our number one priority? I mean, I feel like

791
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,280
Speaker 1: the first question set me up for this, the portal,

792
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: Like I really want to be able to like right now.

793
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: So it was like it about this. So I just

794
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: kind of new job at all Kalinda State University, you know,

795
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: teaching creative brading and thank you so much, thank you.

796
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 1: And my wife is a scientist and she's finishing off

797
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: her PhD at Harvard and basically had to you know,

798
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: separate for you know, for me to take this job,

799
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 1: for her to continued to her work, and she's coming

800
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 1: down at the end of the summer. But it would

801
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: have been really great if there was just a door

802
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: in my apartment that I could open up and walk

803
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: through and I can meet up there hang out with

804
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: you know, my wife and go to work. That would

805
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,959
Speaker 1: just be fantastic, And so I think a lot about

806
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: it. It It is, um, I just finished the edits to

807
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,399
Speaker 1: my second book, and there's something like that in this book.

808
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: Because I've been thinking a lot about it. It's like

809
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 1: the next step in zoom technology. Right, you could actually

810
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: just go through and be in a room together without

811
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: having to commute. That would be great. So then let

812
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 1: me ask you one more generic question before we dive

813
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 1: into your book, which is what's your personal and swerve

814
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: to the Fermi paradox. If there are so many amazing

815
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 1: planets out there, the team like they could harbor life,

816
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: and the galaxy is quite old and doesn't take that

817
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 1: long to get across, why haven't we been visited by

818
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 1: aliens yet? Okay, so two thoughts for this. The first

819
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: thought is that maybe we have. And you know, like

820
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: I remember it was just earlier this week. I opened

821
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,919
Speaker 1: my phone, I went on Twitter, and I just saw

822
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 1: trending that the Pentagon is going to release, you know,

823
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: the classified documents about your post, and it was all

824
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: of the legitimate news sources. I was just blowing my

825
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 1: mind because I'm like, I was like, we're in the

826
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 1: middle of a sci fi you know story right now

827
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: with you know what's going on, And then I'm reading

828
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: about u POS and it's being taken seriously, it's news.

829
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: Obama is talking about it right right right, Obama is

830
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: talking about it, you know, high, high up officials are like,

831
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: this is a conservative? Is the sperity? I was like,

832
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: is this them? Seems like they've been chilling out, So

833
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: maybe maybe they are and we just can't even understand it,

834
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 1: Like they are visiting us, but they're like, well, why

835
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: even bother trying to have a conversation with us? We

836
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 1: we clearly can't talk to them, and we're clearly not

837
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: even you know, remotely close to us as bad as

838
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: they are. The probably just kind of just hang out

839
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: and then they go back and they're like, well, you know,

840
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,760
Speaker 1: there are things are doing, okay, I guess, And that's

841
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: pretty much it. The other answer I have is that

842
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: I really like the second book, where I like is

843
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 1: the wrong word for it, but I really enjoyed the

844
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,399
Speaker 1: second book for to the Remembers the First Past by

845
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: six and Loup the Dark Chorus, and that book posits

846
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 1: that the reason why no one's talking is because everyone's

847
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: smart and we're quite dumb and we're trying to talk

848
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 1: to aliens aliens and like, yo, and should shut up

849
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 1: because you know, there's we might not kill you, but

850
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: there's some super advance you know, you know, you only

851
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: and somewhere else they are going to just be like,

852
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: let's just take care of that problem before it becomes

853
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: a problem. You know, if we're advanced enough to try

854
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: to communicate with aliens, I imagine aliens being other aliens

855
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: being self protective, you know, might preemptively respond to that

856
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: in an aggressive and negative way. And that's nice marrish,

857
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: but it seems plausible, sort of like we moved into

858
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: a dangerous neighborhood and we're inviting everybody over for brunch,

859
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: right right. The analogy that the book uses is that

860
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: like it's a forest and every day is on pers

861
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 1: in it, and we're the ones that like the fire.

862
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: We lit the fire, and now everyone knows where we are,

863
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 1: you know. Basically, Yeah, So I think both of those

864
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 1: answers boils down to they're being careful. That's why we

865
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: can't really confirm it, because aliens aren't establishing first contact

866
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 1: in the way that we might imagine it being. Either

867
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: they're you know, laying low, or they're researching us. They're

868
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: just like checking up from awesome. Thanks, all right, wonderful.

869
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: I have lots more questions for our guest author, but

870
00:44:55,080 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: first let's take a quick break. Okay, we're back and

871
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 1: we're talking to Cadwell Turnbull, author of The Lesson. So

872
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: let's turn to the subject of your book, The Lesson,

873
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 1: which is an awesome first contact story. When I read

874
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: really good science fiction, I love when it sort of

875
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 1: shines a light on something that already exists in our world.

876
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: It makes us think about something we're living but not

877
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,439
Speaker 1: really paying attention to by accentuating it. And in your book,

878
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: something you highlight is the power dynamics of society and

879
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: the structures that enable it and support that and categorize

880
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: people into sort of different classes of rights and privileges,

881
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 1: especially in a colonial setting. And so when the aliens

882
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: arrive in your book, they sort of fit in at

883
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 1: the top layer of this power structure. Did you write

884
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 1: it in this way on purpose, intentionally adding this new

885
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 1: alien layer to sort of shine a light on the

886
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: colonial and historical power structure as we have here on earth.

887
00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 1: Answers yes. By the end of it like eventually the

888
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: book was doing that on purpose, but I don't think

889
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: I started that way. So the novel as a whole

890
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 1: was inspired by a dream that I had several years

891
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 1: back at this point, because it took me several years

892
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: to write this thing. And it was set in a

893
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 1: small town and there were aliens in that small town,

894
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,879
Speaker 1: but they looked like people. There was something off about them,

895
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 1: and you could just tell that they were aliens pretending

896
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: to be people. And they acted just like the na

897
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: in the book They, you know, is the alien raised

898
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 1: in the book, and they anytime they felt threatened or

899
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: disrespected in a way that made them worry for their

900
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: safety at all, they would respond with, like you know,

901
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: egregious acts of violence. That dream had a character very

902
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,479
Speaker 1: much like the Ambassador character in the book Mirror, and

903
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: she was starting to feel guilty about her specific responses

904
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 1: the threats because she was living among humans long enough

905
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: to kind of incorporate some of human or y. And

906
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 1: there was a character that was very much like the

907
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 1: Derrick character in the book. And the dream was so

908
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: memorable to me that I thought that I should definitely

909
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: do something with this. When your subconscious gives you something

910
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: that good. You know, I feel like you're obligated to

911
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,919
Speaker 1: at least try, and so that first. The very first

912
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:23,959
Speaker 1: thing I tried was that story transplanted to the US

913
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 1: Virgin Islands and having it was pretty much the same

914
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: kind of set up. But the more and more I

915
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 1: worked on it, the more and more I had to

916
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 1: change it to fit the context. Because the dream that

917
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: I had was like Middle America somewhere. It was somewhere

918
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: in some small town. All the characters were white. I

919
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 1: don't know why, you know this, that's just what came

920
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 1: to me. And so when I transplanted it into the

921
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 1: context that made sense to me. St Thomas, you know,

922
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 1: mostly predominantly black. All of these other themes started coming up.

923
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, if this is transplanted to the

924
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 1: Virgin Islands, this is how the Virgin Islands people will

925
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: read this thing. You know, if they either show up

926
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: and they're super powerful and they have all of these

927
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 1: great gifts, but they respond to any you know, threat

928
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,919
Speaker 1: with you know, this kind of like violence that will

929
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 1: be memorable, that will remind the virginal as people of colonialism,

930
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 1: things that have happened in the past. You know, like

931
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: how the Danish treated, you know, the slave society of

932
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: that time, right, And so it seemed to me that

933
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 1: as soon as I made that transplant, it became about

934
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 1: colonialism as well as power. So their dream was about

935
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 1: what do you do with power? And you know, how

936
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 1: do you challenge beings more powerful than you? But because

937
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: I made this decision, it also became about how does

938
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: that also map onto you know, things that have happened

939
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: in our past. How does it map onto colonialism and

940
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 1: powerful you know, societies on our own world going to

941
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,760
Speaker 1: new places and subjugating the people there, or bringing people

942
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:57,720
Speaker 1: to be subjugated. So then when you wrote the story,

943
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 1: is it necessary for them to be aliens? I mean,

944
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 1: could you have written a similar story with like some

945
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: overwhelming human army that comes and decides to recolonize or

946
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: subjugate the people there. What about it makes it necessary

947
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: for them to be aliens? I mean, I love aliens.

948
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 1: I'm glad they were aliens. I mean, and that's that

949
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: would be my My most basic response is just like,

950
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: I love aliens. That's fine, But I think it would

951
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: be a really different story if it was just another empire.

952
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 1: You know, I wouldn't be able to do two mappes

953
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 1: so closely to our present, and do you know, have

954
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 1: the Virgin aledge remained the same? I would have to

955
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: create a justification for why there's a new empire somewhere

956
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 1: on earthcoming and subjugating the virginality because of originalitis is

957
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 1: it belongs to the US. And so we're in a

958
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: pretty stable state of colonialism, you know what I mean.

959
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: It's like the US if we misbehaved, shows up, you know,

960
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: and they're like, what are you guys doing? Otherwise we're

961
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: kind of like left to you know, to the most part,

962
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 1: our own devices, and our structure is pretty much like

963
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,919
Speaker 1: any American state. And so I would have to create

964
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 1: a context for to make that possible for another human

965
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: nation to come there and subjugate did us Virgin Islands

966
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:13,839
Speaker 1: without the U s say hey, no, that's ours. But

967
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 1: the other the other aswer to that is I just

968
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 1: think that there's some really interesting things to do with

969
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: aliens that are not just colonialism. And so so the

970
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 1: book plays with that question of colonialism, but I also

971
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: wanted to ask more existential questions about like how far

972
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: would you go to make yourself improvious to harm? It

973
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: is like the whole motive for the Eena is a

974
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 1: really important aspect of their culture and their belief system.

975
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: That they believe that the universe is this like, you know,

976
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 1: ancient enemy that they have the vanquage the universe itself,

977
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: you know, So you imagine that the humorous of a

978
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 1: species like that their goal is to become more and

979
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: more powerful so that nothing can hurt them, And that

980
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: to me seems like something that I think is also

981
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: true of humanity. Like I would argue that any person

982
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 1: seeking power, you know, if I look back at like

983
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 1: empires of any kind, I think that there's a fundamental

984
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 1: insecurity that motivates great men or great people to be

985
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,280
Speaker 1: the most powerful thing in the world in the environment

986
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: around them, so that maybe they might be spared, is

987
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: what I think. And so I think the Ena are

988
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 1: kind of embodiment of that thinking. They're like, if we

989
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:30,439
Speaker 1: make ourselves impervious, we will be spared. And I think

990
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: that that Aliens needed to come and represent that ideology. Yeah,

991
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: I think that's really interesting and I understand where it

992
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: comes from. Here on Earth, we are all competing for resources.

993
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 1: There is something of a survival of the fittest, you know,

994
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 1: not everybody makes it, not every society makes it, not

995
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,879
Speaker 1: every person survives. I wonder though about whether that really

996
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: maps onto the situation of a interstellar galactic empire. You know,

997
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: if you can conquer space, if you can travel through space,

998
00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 1: isn't there enough room for everybody? Aren't there enough planets,

999
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,800
Speaker 1: enough asteroids filled with platinum and have frozen water, enough resources,

1000
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 1: enough stars forever to have whatever they need. Isn't it

1001
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 1: possible we could end up in a post scarcity society?

1002
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: Is it colloquial to imagine that will have the same

1003
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:15,879
Speaker 1: sort of conflicts on the galactic scale that we've had

1004
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: on the planetary scale. What do you think about the

1005
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: future society in that way? So there's two answers to that, right.

1006
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: I think that sure that that should be true, that

1007
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 1: everyone can live, and that if we have a universe

1008
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 1: worth of resources at our disposal, we should all be fine.

1009
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 1: But I do think that cultures are built before realities change,

1010
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 1: and that cultures are slow to change in the face

1011
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: of new realities, you know what I mean. And so

1012
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 1: my feeling is that right now, if we wanted to,

1013
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 1: we could be okay on Earth, you know, like everyone

1014
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,879
Speaker 1: could have all the resources that they need. We could

1015
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 1: live you know, in relative peace and security with some

1016
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: measures taken, you know what I mean. But I think

1017
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 1: right now we could do it. But cultures are slow

1018
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 1: and is a lot of conflicts intentions that create you know,

1019
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:06,359
Speaker 1: it's not just the resources, it's ideologies, it's interests that

1020
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: create this kind of scarcity. And so my thinking with

1021
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: the NA at the very least is that their core

1022
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 1: motivation isn't that they need more resources to be more secure.

1023
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:21,479
Speaker 1: Their motivation is fear. They worry that there's something out there,

1024
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 1: bigger and stronger that will take whatever they've gained from them,

1025
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 1: you know, and so their response is reactive. It's like,

1026
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 1: we continue to look for these, you know, solutions to

1027
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 1: our insecurity so that we can be completely secure. I

1028
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 1: don't think it even occurs to them that, you know,

1029
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: there's enough for everyone. It's it's like they believe that

1030
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 1: the universe, and some of this has to do with

1031
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: the history that I imagine for them, they believe in

1032
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 1: the universe picks different centiate beings against each other that

1033
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 1: it's like you have to strike first in order to

1034
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 1: be the one that maintains. And it is not a

1035
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 1: very utopian idea, balistic vision, you know, and there's characters

1036
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:05,800
Speaker 1: in this book that try to challenge that belief because

1037
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 1: they think differently. But you know, because you know, have

1038
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 1: a long established culture, it's really hard for to shape that.

1039
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 1: It sounds like they have had a bad experience in

1040
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: the dark forest and and now they're more careful. So

1041
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: then let me ask you if you don't mind to

1042
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: weigh in on some of the current debate about human

1043
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 1: plans for colonization. You know, Elon Musk wants to do

1044
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 1: private colonization of Mars, and a lot of folks in

1045
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: the science community are saying, hold on, that's built on

1046
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 1: a colonial structure, which has led to like all sorts

1047
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:36,879
Speaker 1: of terrible things in human history. Maybe we should take

1048
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 1: another approach. What do you think should we let Elon

1049
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 1: Musk be the new Dutch East India Company and colonize

1050
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: Mars or should we leave Mars for the Martians? I

1051
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:48,359
Speaker 1: would say no. I think that we've seen on our

1052
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:52,320
Speaker 1: own planet, you know what runaway, you know, capitalism has done,

1053
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 1: and I think that it's dangerous to just extend that

1054
00:54:54,960 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: outward without thinking about regulating it. You know, I don't

1055
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 1: think there's anything necessarily wrong or harmful about space exploration.

1056
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:07,399
Speaker 1: But I do think that, you know, it's legitimate when

1057
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 1: people talk about, well, there's problems here that we haven't solved,

1058
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 1: why are we doing that? And I think that at

1059
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: the very least these things should be moving at similar paces,

1060
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 1: or space exploration should be slower than the work that

1061
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 1: we're doing on our own planet. If our own planet

1062
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 1: is a mess, why would we extend that out to

1063
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 1: other planets? Like why would we make other messes? And

1064
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 1: so that's my feeling. I don't think that it should

1065
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:34,799
Speaker 1: be elon Musk. If we do it, it should be

1066
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: the public. It should be a collective process, and it

1067
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: should be subject to a lot of slow collective decision making.

1068
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 1: So I like to imagine a scenario talking about power structures,

1069
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: about what happens when aliens come to Earth. And you know,

1070
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: in your book, the aliens, for example, they don't see

1071
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 1: any difference in the value of a human life and

1072
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 1: an Earth dog's life. So we're in sort of like

1073
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: a second category below the aliens. And you know, for

1074
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 1: me as a human, this feels shocking when I read it,

1075
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:06,720
Speaker 1: but it's sort of a natural extension of our own

1076
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: moral structure here on Earth. We don't value the lives

1077
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 1: of pigs and cows the way we do humans. We

1078
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: raise them for meat. So do you think if aliens

1079
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 1: come to Earth and they're vastly superior to us the

1080
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 1: way we imagine we are to cows and pigs, that

1081
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 1: we really have any right to object being treated like

1082
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 1: farm animals, being you know, raised for human bacon, etcetera.

1083
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 1: Do we have a moral leg to stand on there?

1084
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:29,319
Speaker 1: What do you think? This makes me think of a

1085
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 1: really good story from Octavia Butler called Blood Child, where

1086
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: we are cattle. It's complicated. We're not exactly cattle. We're

1087
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,799
Speaker 1: kind of like birth sex. So like the aliens, they

1088
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:45,359
Speaker 1: use us to help nurture their young, and they live

1089
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 1: inside our bodies and then they burst out of our

1090
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,919
Speaker 1: bodies and hopefully, you know, the more progressive aliens try

1091
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 1: to make sure that the humans are not egregiously harmed

1092
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,240
Speaker 1: in the process. But they're kind of like, well, whatever

1093
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,040
Speaker 1: if they get hungry. If these worms get hungry, you know,

1094
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 1: they have to eat. They have to eat. But I

1095
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:04,319
Speaker 1: think there is a right to object. I think that

1096
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,359
Speaker 1: will have no choice but to object because it's us,

1097
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:10,240
Speaker 1: you know, and I think if we can make the argument,

1098
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 1: we can make the argument. You know, if we can

1099
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: convince the aliens not to just eat us, that that

1100
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 1: would be great, or not to just use us as

1101
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 1: their their birthday pots, that would be great. But I

1102
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: think that in the same way that we make the argument.

1103
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 1: You know, we talk a lot about all of us

1104
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 1: becoming vegetarians, and not all of us will agree. I

1105
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 1: think that we can't expect aliens to all come to

1106
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 1: the same agreement on this. They some of them might.

1107
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 1: We might be able to convince some of them, but

1108
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 1: if it's to their advantage to use us in some

1109
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 1: way that we feel is degrading to who we think

1110
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 1: we are, I think the same rules apply. We'll have

1111
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 1: to convince them or we'll have to fight, and you know,

1112
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 1: we'll likely lose. But I think that there's something to

1113
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 1: be said about gradually moving the ethics of another group

1114
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 1: by continued engagement. But that group in whatever form right. Well,

1115
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 1: there's lots of reasons to be vegetarian, environmental, ethical, etcetera.

1116
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 1: But I suppose one of them is to gain moral

1117
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 1: standing when arguing with our future alien overlords. So let

1118
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 1: me ask you a last question. About the sort the

1119
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 1: science and the physics of your novel in your book,

1120
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 1: these aliens they can travel great distances between the stars.

1121
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 1: How much did you think about, you know, how that

1122
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 1: travel happens and how to make it plausible. How critical

1123
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 1: is it to you that the science of your universe

1124
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 1: be plausible even if it is in the science of

1125
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 1: our universe. That is a very good question. And the

1126
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 1: answer to that is it was not a huge concern,

1127
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 1: to be honest. Some of the ways that I kind

1128
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: of like convinced myself that it was okay. It's because

1129
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 1: they are very old, and even if they travel you know, slowly,

1130
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 1: they can do that just fine, and they won't really

1131
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 1: you know, affect them because they live with thousands of

1132
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:52,439
Speaker 1: years already before the events of the book. But I'm

1133
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 1: pretty sure in the back of my mind I justified

1134
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: it the way that a lot of you know, really

1135
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 1: trophy soft sites for should justifies it is the Ring Gate,

1136
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 1: or they have FTL you know, you know, they jump.

1137
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 1: I did not think about how far away their home

1138
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 1: world was from Earth. Even I was much much more

1139
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:16,120
Speaker 1: concerned with the history of the Virgin Islands and how

1140
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 1: the people were responding to them. And what what it

1141
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 1: made them think about, and questions of faith and all

1142
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 1: of these things that they brought up for the Virgin Islanders.

1143
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 1: And I was also really interested in what the ships

1144
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 1: looked like and model them off of, like reefs and

1145
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 1: coral and seashells, because I thought, this is me the island,

1146
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,840
Speaker 1: you know, an Alan culture, see as seashell in the sky,

1147
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 1: and so I just thought about the imagery of that

1148
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 1: more than even the physics of how that would work,

1149
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 1: you know. So I'm ashamed to say not a lot

1150
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 1: of thought. That's all right, it was very compelling. Great.

1151
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: We'll tell us if you can a little bit about

1152
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 1: your upcoming book, your next project. So the title of

1153
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 1: it is No Gospel Monster Earth. It's coming out on

1154
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 1: September seven, you know, pretty soon. And it's fantasy. I

1155
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 1: even less consideration about how things work, you know, it's magic.

1156
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 1: So the way that I would pitch it, although how

1157
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 1: I've talked about it in the past, it's imagine the

1158
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 1: Civil Rights era but modernized and with monsters from popular

1159
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 1: culture and Caribbean folklore and you know, other cultures. So

1160
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 1: where worlds vampires, I have a monster in the book

1161
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 1: called a Sukuyant, which is like a you know, local

1162
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 1: Caribbean folklore monster. You know, a bunch of different islands

1163
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 1: have it. It's kind of like a vampire that removes

1164
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: its skin. It's kind of like a mix between a

1165
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 1: vampire and a selky. All of these different monsters that

1166
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 1: we recognize and then some made up monsters that I created,

1167
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: and they're all advocating for their the human rights in

1168
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 1: a world that has just learned of the existence. I

1169
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 1: very much see it as like a in conversation with

1170
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 1: a lesson. So the lesson is like, how does humanity

1171
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 1: respond to a threat from without? And this one is like,

1172
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 1: how does society respond to a threatful with him? Our

1173
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 1: darkest nightmares are real, and how do we deal with that?

1174
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 1: And are they really that nightmarish? Wow, it sounds like

1175
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 1: a lot of fun. Well, congrats on the lesson, a

1176
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 1: wonderful book, and best of luck on new gods, new monsters.

1177
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:15,640
Speaker 1: And thank you very much for coming on the podcast

1178
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 1: and answering our awkward physics questions. Thank you so much

1179
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 1: for having me. This is really fun, all right, pretty

1180
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 1: interesting interview, fascinating author and book. I liked how he

1181
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 1: said that the story came to him from a dream

1182
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 1: he had about a man who has a relationship with

1183
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 1: an alien. Sounds like a pretty racy dream there. Yeah,

1184
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 1: I'm not sure every dream you have about like that

1185
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:40,920
Speaker 1: should turn into a novel, but this one, he told me.

1186
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 1: He started writing it as a short story and then

1187
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 1: just sort of grew and grew and grew, and he

1188
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 1: sort of fought the idea that it was a full novel,

1189
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 1: unill eventually he just gave in. He was like, all right,

1190
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 1: let's turn this whole thing into a novel. And I'm

1191
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 1: glad he did because it's a really good book. Interesting. Yeah,

1192
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 1: I guess you never know, right, Like, if you have

1193
01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 1: a dream and it could turn into a book, yeah, actually,

1194
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 1: if you can do that, if you can turn one

1195
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 1: dream into a novel, then you're a good writer. But hey,

1196
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 1: take notes of all your crazy dreams. They are your creativity.

1197
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 1: And I also like the discussion you had about colonialism.

1198
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 1: And it seems like he thinks that, you know, we

1199
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:17,360
Speaker 1: shouldn't maybe colonize Mars, Like he thinks maybe we should

1200
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:19,480
Speaker 1: leave Mars for the Martians. Yeah, Well, as somebody who

1201
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:21,440
Speaker 1: grew up in the Virgin Islands, I think he has

1202
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 1: a different and very valuable perspective on the question of

1203
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 1: being colonized. So yeah, right, yeah, leave Mars Weird would

1204
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 1: be maybe the T shirt slogan keep Mars weird, keep

1205
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 1: Mars alien, exactly. Send one of those two bezos and

1206
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 1: Elon Musk and as excited as I am about exploring

1207
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 1: the Solar System and getting answers to questions and it

1208
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 1: just seems super fun to get out into space and

1209
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 1: to build this technology, I think we do need to

1210
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:49,920
Speaker 1: think carefully about how to make these decisions, right, Yeah,

1211
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 1: because they're planetarying scale right there, galactic and scale right.

1212
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:56,520
Speaker 1: We don't want to be like, hey, Mars seems really comfortable.

1213
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 1: It's our new home, but then it turns out that

1214
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 1: there are maybe you know, there's life kind of brewing

1215
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 1: under the surface. Yeah, And do we want the head

1216
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:06,920
Speaker 1: of some technology company to make those decisions on behalf

1217
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 1: of the entire human race. You don't get to unmake

1218
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 1: them once you've made them, right, We definitely don't want

1219
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 1: We definitely want maybe like a physicist making because they're

1220
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:21,640
Speaker 1: really in tune with humanity and struggle of everyday people. Right.

1221
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 1: I'm not running for president of Mars for sure, definitely not.

1222
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:27,560
Speaker 1: Don't vote for me. Maybe just you could be the

1223
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 1: first gentleman who knows right. All right, Well, we hope

1224
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:33,400
Speaker 1: you enjoyed that, and we hope you check out the

1225
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 1: lesson the debut Nobble by author cat Will Turnbull. Thanks

1226
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 1: for joining us, see you next time. Thanks for listening,

1227
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:50,920
Speaker 1: and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is

1228
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:54,360
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio or more podcast For

1229
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1230
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite chips