1 00:00:01,639 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. This is our very first episode and today's 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: Crash Course Elon Musk versus the Twitter Verse. Elon Musk's 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: Twitter takeover is catnet for a podcast like Crash Course. 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: It involves so many collisions and disruptions that it's hard 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: to pick even a small handful. But we're gonna try so. First, 8 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: the players. You know Twitter. It was Donald Trump's favorite medium. 9 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: He tweeted twenty six thousand, two hundred and thirty seven 10 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: times during his presidency, often fact free and truth free. 11 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: That is until he got banned from Twitter in the 12 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: wake of the election and the January six insurrection. But 13 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: Twitter was a pivotal force and debates about information, disinformation, 14 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: the media, celebrity, politics, and all sorts of other issues 15 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: even for Trump arrived and then alone came Elon Musk, 16 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: Tesla and space x is innovative magician and chief loudmouth. 17 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: He said he wanted to buy Twitter, then he said 18 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: he didn't, then the courts made him reconsider, and then 19 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: he bought it. His brief three month ten years Twitter's 20 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: owner and new CEO. Has been chock full of calamity, 21 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: tragic comic mismanagement, mass layoffs, censorship, and personal history onics. 22 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: It's all been very well trumpy, but in a Musk 23 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: sort of way. To dive into all of this, I 24 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: had to talk to Kurt Wagner, a Bloomberg News reporter 25 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: who spent years covering social media, especially Twitter. He has 26 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: boatloads of knowledge on how the platform handles what gets 27 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: poured into our eyes and ears, and he's also working 28 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: on a book about Twitter. Kurt, thanks for joining us, Tim, 29 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: thanks for having me. Well, we've got a lot to 30 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: dig into here at a really thirty five thousand foot level. 31 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: Talk to me about Musk's purchase and leadership of Twitter. 32 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: You know, what have we learned about how he went 33 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: about acquiring Twitter and what his end goals were? I 34 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: mean to summarize the last eight months into just a 35 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: few words is going to be a real challenge. But 36 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: I would say the first that comes to mind is 37 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: probably chaotic, right. I mean, this has been anything but smooth. 38 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: This has been anything but standard or normal, starting all 39 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: the way back from April, right when he sort of 40 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: showed up unexpectedly on Twitter's doorstep as the largest shareholder 41 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 1: in the company. You know, he hadn't even filed the 42 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: proper paperwork with the SEC when he crossed what should 43 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: have been this five percent ownership threshold to kind of 44 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:50,519 Speaker 1: give them a heads up that, hey, I I own 45 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: a good chunk of the company, right even that was 46 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: not normal, And so I think if you kind of 47 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,399 Speaker 1: go through this timeline, the theme that seems to run 48 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: through it is that everything has been chaos, from the 49 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: takeover and the layoffs to the ability of him to 50 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: try to get the financing together for this thing. It's 51 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: just nothing's been smooth. And so, you know, it's been 52 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: a really interesting story to cover a little bit because 53 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: I had not covered Elon Musk before this saga, and 54 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: as someone who read about him but from an outsider's perspective, 55 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: you know, he was this guy, this genius who built 56 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: Tesla and SpaceX, and he said things he wasn't supposed 57 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: to say. And yes, he certainly seemed to run a 58 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: foul of of regulators and things like that, but I 59 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: also sort of thought, well, he must be really smart, 60 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: because how else would you get to this point where 61 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: you're the richest man in the world. You own these 62 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: great companies. And I'm not saying he's not very smart, 63 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: But what I'm saying is, I guess I didn't appreciate 64 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: just how chaotically or or sort of at times, it 65 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: feels like, by the seat of his pants, he's just 66 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: running this thing on a whim. It feels like. And 67 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: I think I and probably a lot of people inside 68 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: Twitter thought that he might have more of a plan 69 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: when he showed up. Then what it seems like has 70 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: materialized so far. What do you think he had a plan? 71 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: Do you think he even had specific goals in mind 72 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: or end goals in mind when he set his sights 73 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: on Twitter. I think he had a few things that 74 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: he cared about tremendously. The first is the bots situation 75 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: that we heard about relentlessly over the summer. He tried 76 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: to use this idea that Twitter is lying about its 77 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: user base it's just full of bots, as a way 78 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: to even get out of the deal. That didn't work. 79 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: But you know, as someone who has more than a 80 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: hundred million followers on Twitter, his experience on Twitter is 81 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: probably not very fun. Right. Every time he tweets, he's 82 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: tweeting about things that are very attractive to people who 83 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: run bots, Tesla, Tesla, stock, crypto, all those things that 84 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: that tend to probably flood his notifications with spam and 85 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: other types of things. So I think that was number 86 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: one and number two. I do think he really felt 87 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: this need that, like Twitter was not serving those people 88 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: who truly believed in free speech, and he was gonna 89 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: come in and he was going to be the like 90 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 1: White Knight for free speech. You could see this in 91 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: a lot of the text messages he got leading up 92 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: to his offer to buy the company, where a lot 93 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: of people saying like, hey, can you go fix this thing? 94 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: Hey can you buy this and finally restore free speech 95 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: to the internet, right. And I think he truly kind 96 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: of took his offer for Twitter because of those two 97 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: main goals. Now, those are very different than running the 98 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: company day to day when you have to make money 99 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: from advertising, when you have to launch new features, when 100 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: you have to understand the user base and the nuances 101 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: of free speech, And that's where I think he maybe 102 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: was not nearly as prepared as he could have been 103 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: taking over. I think he had two big plans and 104 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: then he kind of did not think about a lot 105 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: of the little things that come with running the company 106 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: day today. But let's dig into that a little bit. 107 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: How serious was he really about free speech? How much 108 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: did that really ultimately matter to him or did that 109 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: just become a nice kind of public sounding board that 110 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: he could use to position himself as a free speech 111 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: evangelist who was going to make Twitter a safe space 112 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: for the masses. Well, I think it can be both, right, 113 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: And I think before these text messages came out, and 114 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: I'm referring to this kind of a document dump during 115 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: the lawsuit where pages and pages of Elon's personal texts 116 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: were made public as part of the lawsuit, before that, 117 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: I think I would have said, well, this kind of 118 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: feels just like, uh, not phony, but at the very 119 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: least like it's a rallying cry for people, especially conservatives 120 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: in the US who feel that they've been silenced. It's 121 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: a way to distinguish himself from what Twitter has kind 122 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: of been known for, you know, it's a way to 123 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: build support around this idea that he wants to buy 124 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: the company. But how much does you really care about it? 125 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: But when you look at those text messages, I mean 126 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: he's exchanging notes with personal friends and colleagues and he's 127 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: talking about this a lot, and this was way back 128 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: in April right or March even, and so that to 129 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: me makes me think that maybe this truly is something 130 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: that bothered him as a user of Twitter, that bothered 131 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: him as someone who's covered about quite regularly on Twitter, 132 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: that not only was at a personal frustration of his, 133 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: but then it also was helpful and sort of building 134 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 1: support for his bid for the company, and also just 135 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: kind of setting himself apart from again what Twitter had 136 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: historically been known for. Do you think there's a possibility 137 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: that even if he was sincere about free speech issues, 138 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: I mean, he has his own track record of not 139 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: actually being open to free speech in his own enterprise 140 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: as a tesla and elsewhere. But apart from that that, 141 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: maybe he just saw this as an initial kind of 142 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: joust or way to sort of put Twitter back on 143 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: its heels empower critics of the platform, but he never 144 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: really intended to fully go through with all of it, 145 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: And then suddenly he was on this slippery slope where 146 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: the courts were saying, sorry, buddy, you've got billions and 147 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: billions of dollars, now make good on your promise. I 148 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: think there's a very real scenario where he made a 149 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: bid for Twitter without thinking the company would accept it. 150 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: Right that in April he said, I'm gonna buy it 151 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: for fifty twenty a share. Right, there's the four twenty 152 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: joke built in to the price. It makes it seem 153 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: almost like he's just trolling the company with his offer alone. 154 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: And they looked around, they saw what was sort of 155 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: coming with the economy. They were already planning to downsize 156 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: with layoffs and other things, and they thought, well, this 157 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: is probably our best offer that we're going to have 158 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: in a long time, and they took it. And I 159 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: do think it's possible that he was caught off guard 160 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: by that. Right, he had a ton of money at 161 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: the time, Tesla stock was doing incredibly well. He was 162 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: maybe having fun, I don't know, right, but obviously it 163 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: became real over the summer when he realized that, hey, 164 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: I actually need to go through with this thing. I'm 165 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: not sure how many people know whether it was a joke, 166 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: because all the bankers and everyone else showed up and 167 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: did the real work, right, But maybe in his mind 168 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: he never thought they'd say yes, Yeah, the bankers showed 169 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 1: up and lent him billion dollars. They did so maybe 170 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: the jokes now and the bankers, Yeah, you know, at 171 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: the time he made the offer, he was able to 172 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: sort of have a lark with a forty four billion 173 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 1: dollar acquisition because he had hundreds of billions of dollars 174 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: of a combination of both Tesla's publicly traded shares and 175 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: the private valuation on space X. And he's gotten in 176 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: a bit of a squeeze lately on the financial side 177 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: with Tesla, as we all know. But I think there's 178 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: also an interesting thing here, which is that if there 179 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: was ever someone who embodied disruption in the modern era 180 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: and in the business landscape, there's maybe nobody who embodies 181 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: it more than Elon Musk. And in positive ways, he 182 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: got the automotive industry to pay attention to the importance 183 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 1: and the market value and the need for e vs. 184 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: He put the US back in commercial space applications with 185 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: SpaceX space rockets to businesses that had been daunting to 186 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: other people. He came in and, by all accounts until recently, 187 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: manage them both pretty well. He had partnerships with the 188 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: federal government that helped, but he was still a very innovative, 189 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: disruptive entrepreneur. But maybe those skill sets don't transfer to media. 190 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: Maybe the ability to run a rocket company and an 191 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: e V company don't prepare you to be a good 192 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: manager of a social media company. Well, I've heard from 193 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: folks who used to work at Twitter that Twitter's problem 194 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: is not an engineering problem. Twitter's problem is a human problem, right, 195 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: Like you're dealing with culture, you're dealing with speech, You're 196 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: dealing with, to your point, media and what people want 197 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: to see versus what they don't want to see, versus 198 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: what's going to entice them to engage. I think Elon's 199 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,599 Speaker 1: background and his successes that he's had had been engineering 200 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 1: problems for the most part, and I think he's approaching 201 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: Twitter in very much the same way. The challenge again, 202 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: is is that really what Twitter needs? Do they need 203 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: an engineer or do they need someone who's maybe more 204 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: tune to kind of the social elements of what this 205 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 1: product does and where it fits into society. And even 206 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: though he's a very avid user of the product, he 207 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: certainly should I think grasp that stuff. I'm not sure 208 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: that that's the way he's approaching running it. That's why 209 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if there's a massive disconnect there. So one 210 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: lesson here is dear disruptor, know thyself. Yeah, I mean 211 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: one playbook might work for company X, but not company Y. Right, 212 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: And I think even from the people he brings in, 213 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: he's bringing Tesla engineers into Twitter, He's surrounded himself by 214 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: his advisers from Tesla and SpaceX. The people who are 215 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: again doing these other problems, those just might not be 216 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: Twitter problems that require different fixes. Okay, I'm gonna pause 217 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 1: this for a second to take a quick ad break. 218 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: We'll be back after this. So did Twitter need musk? 219 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 1: Would it have ultimately been on a better or more 220 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: productive course without him there? I think this is a 221 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: tough question to answer, sir, But let's start from the logistics, right, 222 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: Did Twitter need musk in the sense was the company 223 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: gonna go bankrupt in the way that Elon is now 224 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: sort of suggesting Twitterminco bankrupt? And I think the answers no, right, Twitter, 225 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: as recently as Q one of this year was profitable, 226 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: Q four of last year was profitable, and I looked, 227 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: you know, before we chatted to him. I think eleven 228 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: of the past fourteen quarters Twitter has turned a profit. 229 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: So from a business standpoint, it's not as if they 230 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: were sitting there. I think Elen's described sort of as 231 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: like a plane without an engine heading to Earth. I 232 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: don't think that's really the financial situation the company was in. Now. 233 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,559 Speaker 1: Could Twitter continue to sort of like grow at a 234 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: very slow pace that disappointed investors, and what they have 235 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: needed layoffs? Almost certainly? I think those are different things. 236 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: And I think what Ellen did bring was this spark, right, 237 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: this level of excitement certainly early on, like, Okay, the 238 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: most interesting, possibly smartest man in the world is here 239 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: to save Twitter and kind of get it out of 240 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: this product slog it had been in for very long time. 241 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: And so that's where I think, you know, maybe there 242 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: was some optimism, but I don't think that Twitter was 243 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: in need of a savior at least from a financial perspective, 244 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 1: that felt like something that they could have continued to 245 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: do for the foreseeable future at the very least. Well, then, 246 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: what would be the best course for Twitter, regardless of 247 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: who's running it? Again, if you were to extract Elon 248 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: Musk from this disruptive moment and say Twitter was in 249 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: need of something, even if Musk can't bring that to 250 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: the table, You've identified product which for our non technological listeners. 251 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: We could delve into that a little bit. They've had 252 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: advertising issues in terms of just a steady flow of 253 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: advertising revenue that they can monetize in unique ways and 254 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: other issues. If you were to waive your own magic 255 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: wand and if I said, Kurt, you can be the 256 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: CEO of Twitter, what would you do? Well? I think 257 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 1: Twitter is sort of always struggled with its own identity, 258 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: and I think it's sort of out a little bit 259 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: better over the last couple of years. This acknowledgment of 260 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: like Twitter is what's happening right, I'm using their marketing 261 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: slogan there. But I think one of the challenges is, 262 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: like they had never diversified the revenue. You mentioned advertising. 263 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: All of the revenue I believe it's like nine or 264 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: something is from advertising, and that puts them in a 265 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: very tight position when you go through a recession like 266 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: we're going through or perhaps about to go through. It 267 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: puts them in a tight situation when there's a war 268 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: in Europe, or when there's inflation and marketing budgets get cut. 269 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: And so I do think one of the things Ellen 270 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: is trying to do, which is diversified Twitter's business and 271 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: revenue stream is actually a really smart idea. He wants 272 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: to do it through subscriptions. I think that's possible. I 273 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: think the problem is he trying to do it too quickly. Essentially, 274 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: he's saying, hey, we're gonna come in. Everyone's gonna pay 275 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: for Twitter, which no one has historically ever done. So 276 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: why do we have any reason to believe that they're 277 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: going to start doing it now? And he's sort of 278 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: like cut off Twitter's advertising business with his behavior at 279 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: the same time, and unfortunately, what he needed to do, 280 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: in opinion was say Twitter advertising incredibly important. How do 281 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: we keep that going and then slowly build up this 282 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: other line of business so that we're not so dependent 283 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: on advertising. And I feel like he tried to do 284 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: it overnight, which didn't work for him. So I feel like, 285 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: you know, from a business standpoint, I don't disagree necessarily 286 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: with his way to fix or at least secure Twitter 287 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: a little bit more. I just don't think that he 288 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: handled it with any real nuance or knowledge of Twitter's 289 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: advertising business to begin with. And I think that's a 290 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: hard place to start. I mean, the advertisers want a 291 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: certain kind of environment where they feel like they can 292 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: get the attention of users in a somewhat safe space, 293 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: very safe space, and Musk has made Twitter seem anything 294 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: but safe. I think since he took over, as you noted, 295 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: it's been extremely chaotic at different moments, It's been flooded 296 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: with upticks and hate speech and racism, not typically environments 297 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: mainstream advertisers want to be in. Can he course correct 298 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: on the advertising front? Can he do different things in 299 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: terms of how he manages the environment there to convince 300 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: advertisers to rethink it or is it sort of once 301 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: burned twice shy No. I think the opportunity ahead of 302 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: him is that he can still bring people back. And 303 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: I think part of that is that advertisers go where 304 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: attention is right, and Twitter, for all of its faults, 305 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: has a lot of attention. Now. We can get very 306 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: much in the weeds on like why maybe they've struggled 307 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: a little bit over the years, like the types of 308 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: ads that they serve versus someone like a Facebook or Instagram, 309 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: and why Facebook maybe has a leg up. But I 310 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: think advertisers are sitting here saying, Hey, we're gonna pause 311 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: because we want to see what happens, right, We want 312 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: to see like can he create this sort of safe 313 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: environment that will bring us back. And if so, you know, 314 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: there's hundreds of millions of people that are there that 315 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: they're going to come back to. But up until now, 316 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: I just don't feel that he has demonstrated a willingness 317 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: to do that. He's kind of said that, you know, 318 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,479 Speaker 1: he says the right things when he talks to advertisers, 319 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: but then he tweets things that most advertisers would have 320 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: resolutely die if their ad was next to some of 321 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: Elon's tweets, And so it's like he can't just say it. 322 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: He actually has to do it or show it. And 323 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: that's where I feel like people are just has to 324 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: model it, yeah, yeah, and which he does. He has 325 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: to model adult behavior and sound judgment, which have not 326 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: been sort of hallmark so far of his stewardship. Touching 327 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: on one last thing on the revenue side, if he's 328 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: serious about a subscription model, I think that involves thinking 329 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: through why would anyone subscribe to a social media platform. 330 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that they shouldn't or wouldn't. I'm asking 331 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 1: more about what is the glue on any social platform 332 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: that would make someone say I'll pay five dollars a month, 333 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: or eight dollars a month, or two dollars a month, 334 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: whatever the number is to subscribe to Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, Snapchat, Twitter, etcetera, etcetera. 335 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: I have a thought on that, but I don't want 336 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 1: to dump my answer on you until you tell me 337 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: what yours is. First. Well, obviously it's a little tough, 338 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: as you can imagine, to start charging for things that 339 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: are already free or have been offered for free for 340 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: a really long time, just because people have come to 341 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: expect that. But I can only really speak from my 342 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: own experience. I'm a pretty die hard Twitter user and 343 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: the things that like if they wanted to start charging 344 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: me for direct messages, maybe as a general consumer that's 345 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 1: not a great idea. But what about is a business right? 346 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: If you're United Airlines, gosh or your Southwest Airlines and 347 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: all you want to use Twitter for is basically brand control? 348 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 1: Manage Hey, someone's tweeting a complaint. How do I get 349 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: in touch with them? There is some charging for like 350 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: a p I S the Twitter does, but I don't 351 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: really feel like they fully capitalize on this idea of 352 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: like business messaging, which we've seen Facebook really start to 353 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: lean into on Messenger and WhatsApp, for example, So like 354 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: there are ways for them to charge without necessarily even 355 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: just charging the main consumer, Like they could charge a 356 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: lot of the bigger businesses that rely on Twitter to 357 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:01,959 Speaker 1: get their word out, And I feel like those are 358 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: opportunities outside of ads that they haven't really addressed so 359 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: much from a general consumer like d ms. For me, 360 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: I use d m s all the time. I'm I'm 361 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,199 Speaker 1: more cautious now than I was, for sure, because I 362 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: don't know what's going to happen to my dm s 363 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: with Elon in control. But like that's a feature that 364 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: would be really hard for me to pass by. Like 365 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: if they said, hey, we're gonna start charging you five 366 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 1: cents every time you DM someone, or a dollar if 367 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 1: you want to start a new conversation with someone, it 368 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 1: would be hard for me to say no to that, 369 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: just because, again, I rely on it so much for 370 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: my work. But I do think I'm a bit of 371 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: a unique case here as someone who's not only a 372 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: journalist but who's covering the company. I'm curious. So for me, Tim, 373 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: you said you had ideas, I feel like mine were 374 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: more like geared towards businesses, do you have more consumer 375 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: face and ideas you would pay for? Well, I mean, 376 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: I think community it's an elusive notion. But I think 377 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people come to social media for something 378 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: that they don't get from legacy media, which is an 379 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: ability to participate in the community, even if it's abstract. 380 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: But Instagram, am you're sharing your food pictures with people 381 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: you know. Facebook you're sharing family photos. And I think 382 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: each social media platform has its own distinct identity. And 383 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 1: I think that Twitter is a boutique social media platform 384 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: that has outsized power relative to its user base because celebrities, politicians, journalists, 385 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: and other influencers like the idea of engaging with the 386 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: public and with one another around a certain set of 387 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: relationships and issues. And I think that that's kind of 388 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: a tender mix. These are all pretty thick skinned people 389 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: who are on there. For the most part, I'll say 390 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: that you and I are thick skin I think we've 391 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: certainly seen journalists and other people freak out on Twitter, 392 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: but it had a distinct community. And I think people 393 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: will pay us a subscription to get a service, or 394 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,479 Speaker 1: I think they'll pay a subscription to be part of something. 395 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: And I think One of the magical things about social 396 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: media is you have the sense of being part of 397 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: a much broader community than exists in your own home, 398 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: your own your own state, sometimes even in your own country. 399 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: And I don't know if Musk appreciates what the Twitter 400 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: communities ethos is. And I don't think that's a conservative 401 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,400 Speaker 1: or a liberal, or left or right. I think it's about, 402 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: to a certain extent, information sharing and transparency that gets 403 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: bogged down sometimes in mud slinging and petty juvenal behavior, 404 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: But at its best, it is this distillation of a 405 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 1: certain kind of information sharing that people might pay for 406 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: if that environment was kept intact. But he's sort of 407 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: threatened the kind of boundaries of that environment, I think 408 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: on bogus grounds. I think he has said that conservatives 409 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: are squatted down there, when in fact there's a very 410 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: robust conservative presence on Twitter, and often at least some 411 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: studies have shown that liberals get silenced more than conservatives there. 412 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: But putting that debate aside, there's an information sharing ethos 413 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: about it that I think his stewardship threatens. You know, 414 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: there was some a moment not long ago when Twitter 415 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 1: had this plan around creators, right and this idea of 416 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: I think it was called super follows, So for example, 417 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: to maybe you have a handful of readers or listeners 418 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:16,360 Speaker 1: who would pay you to get sort of like exclusive 419 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: thoughts from you, exclusive tweets from you, maybe like even 420 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: podcast or Twitter space or whatever. Right, And like, I 421 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: think it's a little complicated for folks like us who 422 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: work at a place like Bloomberg to maybe do that, 423 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: but you can imagine the independent media creator who maybe 424 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: could take advantage of that. And like Twitter sits in 425 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: the middle of this relationship, and I guess some of 426 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: the features launched, but it never really took off. I 427 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: do think there's like some potential. They're like every person 428 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: who creates media feels like they have a Twitter presence, 429 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: every journalist, certainly most writers, And I do wonder if 430 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: there's more that they could and should have done to 431 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: sort of like facilitate that relationship and just never got 432 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: around to doing. I know it was like something they 433 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: thought about, but I don't know. It's really tough media 434 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 1: as a fickle business, as you know, to begin with, 435 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: so I feel like it's sort of tough to insert 436 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: yourself even more so within that well, in that context 437 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 1: you know, what role do you see Twitter playing in 438 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: shaping and disseminating information and has that been permanently changed 439 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: by Musk's stewardship. You know, is this the end of 440 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 1: a certain kind of social media era or just a 441 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: new chapter in its evolution. I think Twitter was always 442 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: best at breaking news. So for me, I'm a big 443 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: sports fan. If there's something going on in the world 444 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: of sports and I'm wondering what's happening, I'm going to Twitter. 445 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: That's where I searched and searched that before I searched Google. 446 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,959 Speaker 1: I searched that before I searched Facebook. Certainly, for me, 447 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: that is like where I go for a breaking news moment. 448 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: And I think one of the things that could be 449 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: challenging here. There's two things. One Ellen seeming to be 450 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: doing away with a lot of Twitter's fact checking stuff 451 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: that they did, and it wasn't very robust to begin with. 452 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: I'm not going to pretend like Twitter was this great 453 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: fact checking the machine, but still there was at least 454 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: some level of trying to make sure that the things 455 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: that we're going viral were truthful. And it feels like 456 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: Ellen wants to just get rid of effort to counter exactly, 457 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: and especially around important things like elections, around COVID, misinformation, 458 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: things like that, and Ellen, as far as I can tell, 459 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 1: is getting rid of those things. And so now suddenly 460 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: the information that you get from Twitter is less reliable. 461 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: Therefore it's maybe not the best place for me to 462 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: go search when there's breaking news happening. Now. The second 463 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 1: thing he's doing is he's starting to talk about the 464 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 1: idea of tweaking the algorithm so that the stuff that 465 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: shows up first comes from people who pay. And that 466 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: is a huge change to how Twitter has worked, right, 467 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: because suddenly, one you might not have to be truthful 468 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: anymore for your stuff to get attraction, and two, if 469 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: you pay, you suddenly show up higher in in the feed. Right, 470 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: it feels to me prime for manipulation, It feels prime 471 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: for misinformation. And so because Twitter has always been this 472 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: kind of news outlet for me and now the reliability 473 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: is about to go way down, I am not sure 474 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: how it factors into my news consumption. And I imagine 475 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: I'm not alone in that, right. So that's where I 476 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: think Twitter could change dramatically, is like there's a lot 477 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: of people who I think use it for what I 478 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: use it for who might not be able to do 479 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: so in the next couple of months, And is anyone 480 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: else picking up the baton? Is Musk going to make 481 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: such a hash out of Twitter that inevitably other companies 482 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: will come in and fill the gap. So there's a 483 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: lot of talk about another social service called Mastodon. I'm 484 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: not going to pretend to know a ton about it. 485 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: From everything I've read and kind of observed, it's quite complicated, 486 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: like the user experience requires someone who's either very technical 487 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: or at least willing to put in a lot of 488 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 1: time to figure it out. And so while I think 489 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: a lot of Twitter die hards are sort of moving 490 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: that direction, I don't see this as like something that 491 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: could be nearly as big as Twitter, just because again, 492 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: it's it's too complicated for them in stream users to use. 493 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: What's really fascinating to me is like, I don't know, Tim, 494 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: if you feel this way. I've heard nobody talk about 495 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: Facebook as filling this Twitter void, which is crazy because 496 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 1: one Facebook exists already, everyone has an account to it, 497 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: already does a lot of what Twitter does. It doesn't 498 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: do breaking news as well, but like in theory, it could, 499 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: and yet nobody is saying like, hey, I'm I'm shutting 500 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: down my Twitter, Come find me on Facebook, right, which 501 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: seems like on the surface it should be a very 502 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: logical place for people to go. But that's just not happening. 503 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: And I think that's a totally different conversation we should 504 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: probably have about Facebook at some point. But I guess 505 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: my point is is like there's options out there, none 506 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 1: of which feel like they could really replace Twitter right now, 507 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,199 Speaker 1: and perhaps not ever. I don't know. I mean, I 508 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: think the people who create the most content on Twitter 509 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: are gonna have to decide and sort of move as 510 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: a pack, because that's what makes Twitter so valuable is 511 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: that everyone who's breaking news is on there together. So 512 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: you know, if everyone moves the mask on or everyone 513 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: moves back to Facebook or something else, maybe that could work. 514 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: But I'm a little skeptical right now because it feels 515 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: like Twitter is such a unique place in the social 516 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,679 Speaker 1: media sphere well, and we can't dismiss platform design in 517 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: that analysis, because when you dive into Twitter, you're diving 518 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: into a straight feed of information shared by lots of 519 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 1: people that you see right away when you get on 520 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: the platform. Facebook's a little bit different. Your first interaction 521 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 1: with Facebook is your own feed on what you want 522 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: to post. TikTok is an incredible feed of videos, Instagram 523 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: is an incredible feed of photos, and Twitter is a 524 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: feed of information, and I think that that isn't easily replicated. 525 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: At the same time, if the pool becomes muddied by 526 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: disinformation or propaganda, or hate speech or a number of 527 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: other things, the pool becomes less inviting. And I sort 528 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: of wonder at this stage, is Twitter specifically and social 529 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: media more generally the problem or the solution to our 530 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: global information propaganda problem in your mind? Maybe it's both. 531 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 1: Oh boy, yeah, I mean it's hard for me to 532 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: imagine getting information at the speed in which we get 533 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: it without Twitter, right, I mean, it's so incredibly fast 534 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: that information gets to our fingertips, and I think there's 535 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: a ton of value in that, from like an emergency 536 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: situation to just like understanding what's happening like right there. 537 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: You know. I live in San Francisco, so sometimes it's 538 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: like I'll literally see an incident happening on the street 539 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: with a bunch of fire trucks or something, and I'll Google, 540 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: or excuse me, I'll Twitter. I won't google I'll go 541 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: to Twitter and I'll type in, you know, like the 542 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: street coordinates, and I'll see, like if someone tweeting about 543 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: what's happening here, because I'm curious what's going on. I 544 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: think that's like a super valuable benefit that only Twitter 545 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: can provide. Also, you know, protest movements globes totally, totally 546 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: you know, on the ground in areas in which people 547 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: are forbidden to use other forms of communication or censorship prevails. 548 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: It's actually been a chance at all for liberation for 549 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: lots of people. And partly because Twitter allows people to 550 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: be anonymous, right, Like, that's a big difference between Facebook 551 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: and Twitter. Twitter you can sign up for an account 552 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: with any email and they don't ask for your real 553 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: name or anything like that, and Facebook they do. So, 554 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: you know, Twitter as a result has sort of been 555 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: used historically as a place for activists, people who maybe 556 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: want their identity to be shielded on Twitter provides that. Now, 557 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: with the speed of Twitter comes all kinds of problems 558 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: that I'm sure anyone who's volved the news can figure out. Right, 559 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: misinformation probably top of that list, are certainly close to 560 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: it as being like stuff goes viral that is not true, 561 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: and it shapes opinions and it can lead to real 562 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: harms offline, and so I'm not sure, Like I think 563 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: that Twitter is is net bad for society, But I 564 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: do think there are some real negatives that come with 565 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: the speed in which we share and consume on Twitter. 566 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: There are pros as well, but I do think overall 567 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: it's hard for me to imagine the news environment exist 568 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: stein the way that it does today without Twitter. I 569 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: want to ask you more about that, but let's take 570 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: a quick break first. We'll be right back. Do you 571 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 1: think that his core Musk himself really cares about policing 572 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: for disinformation? You know, you mentioned earlier COVID nineteen hoaxes 573 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: have been rampant on Twitter. It had an impact on 574 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: vaccine uptake, you know, in the general population. Misinformation that 575 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: was shared on Twitter. Musk himself has propagated sensationalist and 576 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: misleading information about COVID nineteen vaccines. Is he built to 577 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: be someone who aptly and aggressively police is for disinformation? No, 578 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: I don't think he will be. I don't think he is. 579 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: He has already revoked Twitter's misinformation policy around COVID nineteen 580 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: missing for Nation. I was told that one of the 581 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: first things he did when he took over was sort 582 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: of instruct to the team that was in charge of 583 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: Twitter's misinformation policies to review them and kind of make sure, like, hey, 584 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: do these even make sense? Should we continue to have these? 585 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: So I don't think that he sees misinformation as sort 586 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: of like a key pillar for him of Twitter. I think, 587 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: if anything, he thinks the company has gone much too 588 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: far in trying to police that type of stuff, and 589 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: it's restricted speech that he feels people should see. So 590 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: I don't see misinformation fighting as a key priority for 591 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: him as a Twitter's owner. So is that a death 592 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: sentence for Twitter? No, I don't. I don't think it's 593 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: a death sentence. But I think it makes Twitter less 594 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: valuable the thing that it does best, which is what 595 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: we're talking about, the access to reliable information very quickly. 596 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: And so is it a death sentence? I would say no, 597 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: because I think there's a lot of people who don't 598 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: pay close attention to the news they get as is, 599 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: and and probably are not going to be turned off 600 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: by that. But is it going to lower Twitter's value 601 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: to people who do care about that stuff? Myself included 602 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: I think the answers for sure. I don't know where 603 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: that ultimately like leads Twitter long term, but I don't 604 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: think it's a good thing, in my opinion, to weaken 605 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: sort of the thing you do best. At least for me, 606 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: that feels like a bad strategy. And so I'm interested 607 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: to see, like what the ramifications are. But I don't 608 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: know how many people are in my my shoes, Like, 609 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: I don't know how many people are going to change 610 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: their Twitter behavior as a result of this. You know, 611 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: one of the things you mentioned earlier is that Musk 612 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: is an engineer, a brilliant engineer, an innovator, and a disruptor, 613 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: but that doesn't necessarily make him a media manager. And 614 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: I thought about that a lot beyond just Twitter itself. 615 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: That in this amazing era of technological innovation that we're 616 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: in and the social media side of that equation, a 617 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: lot of the social media platforms continue to insist that 618 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: their technology companies, they're not publishers. And I've always been 619 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: a little bit suspicious of that argument. I think there's 620 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,239 Speaker 1: legal and financial reasons. They say that it's cheaper not 621 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: to have to police your own content. You're less exposed 622 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: to liability lawsuits if you don't have to police what 623 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: you publish. At the same time, they have become media 624 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: platforms a kinda newspapers or television stations or radio or 625 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: any of the legacy media. And it feels to me like, 626 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: you know, the schizophrenia inside social media companies is intentional. 627 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: And then until the managers and the owners of those 628 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: companies themselves resolve this conflict, they're actually not going to 629 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: be faithful stewards of high quality information. But I was 630 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: wondering what you thought about that. I mean, this is 631 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: such a challenging question because we've been discussing it for years, 632 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: right without any clear answer. And I think the problem 633 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: is the reality is their hybrid media company. Like they 634 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: certainly make editorial decisions, right that choose in some cases 635 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: what misinformation is or isn't, and they choose what shows 636 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: up high in the algorithm and which stuff doesn't. Like 637 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: these are all decisions that ultimately are the same types 638 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,919 Speaker 1: of things that a media company makes. They make money 639 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: from advertising, right, almost all media companies make money in 640 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: the exact same way, right by monetizing our attention and 641 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: subscriptions and subscriptions. But I do think where it sort 642 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: of becomes a little thorny. Is like, the vast majority 643 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 1: of the content that has shared on these platforms is 644 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: not something that they are paying for. It's not something 645 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: that they are choosing necessarily. They're not assigning someone to 646 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: post something about a particular topic. And so, like, I 647 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: think you're right, there's legal reasons for these companies to 648 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: not be publishers, largely to do with responsibility when someone 649 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: posts something that might be illegal. But at the same time, like, 650 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: it's clear that they make editorial decisions, and I think 651 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: that's why we're still talking about this years later. There 652 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: isn't a clear answer. And that's why Congress has struggled 653 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: to come up with laws or regulations around what they 654 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: can and can't do. Is because it's something that's new 655 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: that no one had really thought about when a lot 656 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: of these laws were written decades ago. So they're clearly gatekeepers, 657 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: however we define them. And there's been moments in which 658 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 1: they've been held to account for being more thoughtful and 659 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,280 Speaker 1: responsible gatekeepers. I think about, you know, gun sales on Facebook, 660 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,399 Speaker 1: for example, Facebook was asked to take a closer look 661 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: at the social fallout from the fact that guns were 662 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: being sold willy nilly on the platform, and they cracked 663 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: down on that. So why is it any different when 664 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:40,959 Speaker 1: it comes to disinformation that has a negative impact. Isn't 665 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: there a gate keeping role for these companies that's commensurate 666 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: with that. I think that the problem is, I mean, 667 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: the gun things you're talking about, even that is controversial, right, 668 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 1: Like some people I don't think see any problem with 669 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: their being weapons advertised on these social platforms. And so 670 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: the issue is that not everyone agrees on what even 671 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: misinformation or disinformation is right. And so there are people 672 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: who say, hey, you're just simply taking down speech. Other 673 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: people who say, hey, you're harming society because you're choosing 674 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,879 Speaker 1: to leave this up. I mean, these are all discussions that, 675 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: again we've been having for years, and the reason nothing 676 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: gets done about them is because they're very complicated. I 677 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: think the issue of having any type of regulation around 678 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: misinformation is like, then you have the government trying to 679 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: decide what is true or false or which categories the 680 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: companies should be deciding what's true or false, which I 681 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 1: think is a really again thorny situation to be in. 682 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: I think running one of these companies sounds like a 683 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: miserable job for these very reasons. And I think this 684 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: is one of the things to go sort of full 685 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,399 Speaker 1: circle back to Elon and his intentions. I just don't 686 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: think he thought about this, and I think he showed 687 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: up and he said sort of famously, Hey, we're just 688 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: gonna do whatever the laws and in all the countries 689 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: were operating are. And he's quickly realizing like that's not 690 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: a super easy thing to do either, as we saw 691 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: with like the coordinates of his airplane. It's like, legally 692 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: people can get that information that is not illegal information 693 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: to have, and yet he says, you can't put that 694 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,359 Speaker 1: on Twitter. Well, suddenly he's already doing things that are 695 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: not illegal, but he's he's making Twitter rules around. So 696 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: my point is is that this is a really hard problem. 697 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 1: While by the way, he's also tweeting photos from the 698 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: World Cup and Cutter telling everyone in the d that 699 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,399 Speaker 1: he's sitting there in the stands and they can come 700 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: find him there if they need to. This is policy 701 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 1: by a whim, you know. And and that's where I 702 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: think he just totally underappreciated how complicated is to do 703 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: this for two fifty million people around the world at 704 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: one time. He's tweeted pictures of his nightstand too, next 705 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,439 Speaker 1: to his bed. I think multiple diet cokes and his gun. 706 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 1: That's right. And I sort of wonder when he puts 707 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,799 Speaker 1: his head down on his pillow at night, do you 708 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: think that he regrets his journey at Twitter? Or is 709 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,359 Speaker 1: it too soon to say. I think it's too soon 710 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: to say. It's been two months, right, She's only owned 711 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: the It feels like he's own the company for two years. 712 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: But he's own the company for two months, and so, 713 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: you know, I think it depends on ultimately what his 714 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: legacy will be at Twitter. I think so far. I 715 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: think if this story ended today, it would be a 716 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: huge black eye on Elon Musk's legacy that he did 717 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: this entire thing, and that it's gone the way that 718 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: it's gone. Now. We might look up a year from 719 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: now and and gosh, maybe Twitter will indeed have built 720 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: this big subscription business and suddenly be twice as profitable 721 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: as it was, And maybe we're all still there tweeting 722 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: because we can't help ourselves. And while he's like, turn 723 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 1: this thing into a bigger business than we ever expected, 724 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: I'm not super convinced that that's actually going to happen. 725 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: But I'm also a little reluctant to kind of right 726 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: off this entire thing two months in because I just 727 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,360 Speaker 1: don't know at the pace at which things are changing. 728 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: I mean, gosh, there's just a whole lot that can 729 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: still happen. Maybe by the time your book comes out, 730 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: some of the stuff we will have been resolved and 731 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: we can talk about this again. That I would love that. 732 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out what date do I say, Okay, 733 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: everything that happens on this date forward is somebody else's 734 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 1: look or somebody else's problem. Because the story just evolves 735 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: every single day. At some point I'm gonna have to stop. 736 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: But we haven't gotten to that just yet. Can I 737 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 1: ask you one more question, of course, what lessons have 738 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 1: you learned from Elon Musk's collision with the Twitter verse. 739 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 1: I think that I've just grown a greater appreciation for 740 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: what can happen when someone is very rich and powerful, 741 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: in terms of sort of like forcing things that you 742 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: wouldn't think would be possible, and not all good things right, 743 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 1: like we've seen, for example, he's just sort of ignoring 744 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: regulatory requirements. He signed an agreement to buy this company 745 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,359 Speaker 1: and then just simply said I'm not going to buy it, 746 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: like that is not something that could normally happen. But 747 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: he is Elon Muski, has infinite resources. He seems to 748 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,439 Speaker 1: have no regard for kind of general rules that most 749 00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 1: of the rest of us play by, And so I 750 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: think for me, it's just sort of like opened my 751 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: eyes to the fact that we think something is supposed 752 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,919 Speaker 1: to work a certain way, and yet that's not set 753 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: in stone or very rigid necessarily, especially when you are 754 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: a very rich and powerful person, which he is. And 755 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: so maybe I was just too naive previously to assume, like, Okay, 756 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: a binding contract means everyone will actually do what they 757 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 1: say they're going to do. But he's just sort of 758 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: like proved that almost nothing that's even said or agreed 759 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,359 Speaker 1: to a setting stone until he decides that it is. 760 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,840 Speaker 1: And if you can afford enough lawyers, Yeah, the SEC 761 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 1: at bay, he's thumbed his nose at the SEC to 762 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: keep competitors at bay, to keep critics at bay. He 763 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:46,280 Speaker 1: is empowered in a way that average people aren't simply 764 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: because of his wealth. That's and of course his accomplishments, 765 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 1: but his wealth is the sort of tip of the 766 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: spear in this isn't it? I think so. And again 767 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: I've covered very wealthy people. I've covered Facebook a long 768 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: time in Mark Zuckerberg, but you know, rarely, I guess, 769 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,920 Speaker 1: did I have or come face to face with someone 770 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: just simply using their sheer wealth to kind of do 771 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 1: whatever they want, regardless of rules. And I feel like 772 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: that's what we've seen from Elon in this situation of 773 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 1: time and time again, and so it's just kind of 774 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,320 Speaker 1: opened my eyes a little bit more to that reality 775 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 1: in the business world and that rules are sometimes for 776 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,720 Speaker 1: other people if you're in a position to ignore them yourself. 777 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 1: If you have money, yeah, if you have the money, well, man, 778 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 1: that went by really quickly. Kurt, thanks for joining us. 779 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,439 Speaker 1: So that was a real treat today and I would 780 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 1: like to tell our audience that you can follow Kurt 781 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 1: Wagner on Twitter at Kurt Wagner eight. I look forward 782 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: to our next session. Kurt. Thanks to him. Yeah, I 783 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 1: appreciate it. Thanks for having me here at crash course. 784 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 1: We believe the collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising, 785 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 1: and always instructive. In today's crash course, I learned that 786 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:59,280 Speaker 1: the skills you acquire by running a disruptive automobile company. 787 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 1: This spiffy rocket company may not make you the best 788 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,920 Speaker 1: person to run a complicated and high profile social media platform. 789 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: And inspired by Kurt's insights, I also think we have 790 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: a rules problem in America. It seems like some rules 791 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 1: are fit for some people and some aren't fit for others, 792 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: and power and money is sometimes the dividing line. What 793 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: did you learn? We'd love to hear from you. You 794 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 1: can tweet at the Bloomberg Opinion handle at Opinion or 795 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:38,400 Speaker 1: at me at Tim O'Brien using the hashtag Bloomberg crash. Course, 796 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 1: you can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening 797 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,799 Speaker 1: right now and leave us a review. It helps more 798 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: people find the show. This episode was produced by the 799 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:54,840 Speaker 1: indispensable Anamazarakis and me. Our supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson, 800 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: and we had editing help from Katie Boys, Jed Sandberg, 801 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,879 Speaker 1: Jeff Crocott, and Mike nets Up. Blake Maples does our 802 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: sound engineering, and our original theme song was composed by 803 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: Luis Gara. Special thanks this week to Carly Snyder and 804 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 1: Christine Van den Biler here at Bloomberg as well as 805 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: Alison Cantor Graber and the rest of the I Heard 806 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: team to help get this show off the ground. I'm 807 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,719 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. We'll be back next week with another crash course.