WEBVTT - Bonus: Inside a Mother's Open Marriage 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:05.280 Hello, She Wants More listeners, Joe Piazza here. I can't 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:08.360 believe that it's been a year since we launched this 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:13.480 wonderful show, but time flies, it really does. I don't 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.640 know about all of you, but I've been so busy. 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:20.400 My new novel, The Sicilian Inheritance, comes out in about 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:24.440 six weeks and it is available for pre order right now. 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:28.840 The Sicilian Inheritance is an adventurous mystery set in Sicily, 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:33.760 all about a woman who wants more, more out of life, 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:37.520 more out of everything, just like a lot of us. 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:42.479 And yes, there are some fairly steamy sex scenes. You 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:45.760 can order The Sicilian Inheritance right now wherever you get 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:51.760 your books now. This episode is actually from my other podcast, 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:55.520 Under the Influence, But when I landed this interview with 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:59.280 Molly Winter about her open marriage, I knew that I 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:01.560 had to drop it in the She Wants More feed. 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:05.200 Mollie is the New York Times best selling author of More, 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:09.680 a memoir where she writes so honestly about the first 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:12.480 ten years of opening up her marriage when her children 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:15.840 were young. In two thousand and eight, Molly and her 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:19.319 husband had been married for about ten years and then 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:24.319 Mollie met someone else. She was exhausted, her husband was 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:30.280 working all the time, and suddenly she just felt desire again. 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:35.920 And that was amazing. When she told her husband, he 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:40.520 wasn't mad, and he said, why don't you sleep with him? 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:44.399 Why don't you give this a try? Why don't we 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:48.920 open our marriage? And they did. This one line from 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:53.320 Mollie really stuck with me. She said, mothers in our 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:56.400 society are meant to put on a one sized fits 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:59.640 all mom suit and were meant to lop off all 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:03.120 the parts arts that don't fit inside the suit. It 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:09.040 just minimizes us and destroys so much of our feminine vitality. 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:16.120 I could not agree more. Molly's account of the first 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:19.359 ten years of her open marriage is raw and honest 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:21.920 and eye opening, and it has plenty of lessons for 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:24.519 people who don't want to open up their marriage, who 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:27.359 want to stay monogamous, but who just want a better 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:30.480 way of being a partner in the world. I love 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:33.000 this conversation with Molly, and I really think you're going 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:33.400 to too. 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:41.440 So before we opened our marriage, to said the scene, 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:45.680 my children were six and three years old. I had 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:51.200 just decided to stay home for I thought maybe a while, 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:55.079 but I lasted one year. I had been a teacher, 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:58.480 and I had decided to stay home because my youngest 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.280 needed some different therapies things like that, and it was 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:03.920 just I was having a lot of guilt around not 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:08.480 being home, so I decided to stay home and then 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:13.040 lost my mind. But my husband has always had to 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.880 work late, and I say has to kind of with 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:18.000 air quotes, but you know the truth is he was 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:21.840 running his own company. He's in New York doing music 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:25.080 for TV and movies, and so often late calls with 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:28.079 la blah blah blah. And so he came home really 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:31.880 late one night and I was just like done, and 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:35.880 I just walked out of my house, without my keys, 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.840 without my phone, and I ended up meeting a guy. 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:42.800 I think so many mothers can relate to that moment 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:46.960 right just where. You know, I know that you're working, 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:49.080 I know that you were doing things to support our family, 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:52.240 but I've also been doing this work at home all 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:55.160 day long, on the most most labor that is unacknowledged, 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:56.600 and I'm just at my I'm done, I'm at my 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:57.920 wits end. I have to walk away. 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:03.320 Yeah, yeah, you have to walk away sometimes. And I 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:07.360 didn't realize what I was walking into when I walked away. 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:11.120 But we did have some precedent in our marriage before 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:14.320 we even got engaged, and when we were dating, like 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.120 my husband was kind of into my being with other people. 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:20.200 I was never that into it though, because it was 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:22.720 more in like a swingery kind of way. We had 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:27.080 gone to a couple sex clubs and had a three someones, 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:29.919 but that was all before we had kids. Once we 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.200 had kids, that was just shut down, you know what 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:37.800 I mean. I could barely muster the energy to have 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:41.920 sex with my husband. So I knew that he was 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:43.800 a little into it. He had even said to me 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:46.839 also that if I ever wanted to sleep with someone 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:50.039 else once we were married, that if I wanted to, 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:52.640 I could just as long as I told him about it. 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:54.640 And part of that was his titillation, and part of 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:56.359 that was like he just you didn't want me to 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:59.479 lie to him, right right? So I knew there was 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.000 like a pos sibility, but I hadn't. I mean, it 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.240 was the farthest thing from my mind. So when I 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:06.880 walked into this bar, a friend of mine like found 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:09.839 me on the street just wandering and she was like, 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:11.200 come to the bar. With me. So I went to 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:12.800 the bar and it was one of her friends there, 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:17.599 and I was shocked that like desire course through my 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:22.880 body when I met this guy. So it wasn't like 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:27.000 I really had planned to open my marriage, and once 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:30.320 that happened, I didn't necessarily plan to act on it. 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.240 So the book tells the story of the first ten 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:36.159 years of our opening our marriage, starting at that point 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:38.040 in two thousand and eight when my kids were little, 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:39.920 and now they're nineteen and twenty two. 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:43.120 Almost oh gosh, they're grown ups. When people say that 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:45.880 to me, yeah, oh my gosh, Wow. 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.120 It happens. It does so long, and now I like 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:54.000 missed the little buggers. I'm like, no, it's it's crazy 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:59.440 how how intense it is and then how over it is. 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:01.960 But part of me wants to say from the get go, 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:05.720 it's like, with that endpoint in mind, like you're supposed 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:09.080 to leave your children to have their own lives eventually, 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:13.560 and if you don't preserve any part of yourself for 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:19.760 that moment, it's not good for anyone. You know. Ultimately, 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:23.360 you know it was there. It was probably escaping motherhood 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:28.320 that led me out the door that day. But it's 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:32.640 also been such an important piece of my own journey, 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.640 and I think has cultivate helped me to cultivate a 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:39.440 very authentic relationship with my children now that they're older. 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:42.600 Yeah, yeah, and I'll I have I have so many 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.280 more questions about that once we get down the road 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:47.719 a little bit. Sure, I want to go back to 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:50.920 that first night. So you're feeling desire for the first 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:52.719 time in a long time. I mean, I know what 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:56.680 it's like to just I mean, the desire faucet kind 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.400 of gets shut off for a while. I mean, for 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:01.920 some moment. We're all different, right, we are not a monolith, 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.160 but it can get shut off for a while after 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:07.479 you have kids, and when it's not even the having 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:12.040 of kids, it's the very physicality of motherhood too. Someone 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:15.760 is always touching your body and you're exhausted. 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:17.800 You're exhausted, exhausted. 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.400 Exhausted, and but you're feeling it for the first time, 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:25.320 and that is exciting. Was it also terrifying? 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:32.360 Yes? Yes, exciting and terrifying, And I'd say those were 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.840 probably the two key emotions. For the first five years 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:40.840 or so, I was kind of vacillating between thrill and terror. 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:45.040 And you know, I wasn't bored though, so that was 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:47.600 good because I had been getting into a place where, 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.720 you know, like you can only in my day it 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:56.680 was like a lot of freaking Teletubbies and Nolo and 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:58.160 and Thomas the Tank Engine. 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:02.280 Yeah, we're at like Bluey and Pepa Peg. Actually we 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.040 watch a lot of dinosaur crap in our house. 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:09.880 Where ours was it train household, primarily a lot of trains. 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.760 But yeah, it's really not you know it. There is 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:22.120 nothing to feed the kind of human woman part of 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:26.440 yourself that is not the maternal part for so long 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:30.360 that you kind of forget that you have this sort 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:34.199 of working body with sex orgs. 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:37.600 Yes, yes, a body, a body that want a body 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:38.760 that once had sex. 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:44.280 Right like like enthusiastically, you know place. And I think 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.160 I also had so much anger at my husband at 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:51.880 the time that I couldn't even when he was trying 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:56.920 to connect with me. I was just I was angry 0:08:56.960 --> 0:09:00.480 at him, some for reasons that that were his fault, 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:03.400 and some for reasons that weren't his fault or that 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:08.360 went beyond him, that went into the larger patriarchy. And 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:11.480 for some reason, this young single guy who didn't see 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:15.080 me as a mom who had not impregnated me and 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:17.200 stayed late at work, you. 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:17.679 Know what I mean. 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:20.760 Yes, I could see him with these fresh eyes that 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.520 I could not see my husband with anymore. So that 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:27.679 was part of it, I'm sure. And it's a complicated soup. 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.920 Yes, yes, And that's the thing. It is all complicated. 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:36.400 I think that's what people have really responded to in 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:39.640 this She wants more podcasts. It's that women are complicated. 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:42.400 We are not one thing or and just one thing. 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:46.440 We are. We have so much that has not been 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:49.080 expressed in popular culture, and especially if you were a mother, 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:51.679 we have been told to be a certain way. We 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:56.000 do not see mothers as erotically charged, as sexual creatures. 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:58.720 And I think that your book is really breaking down 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:00.120 stereotypes around that. 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:05.640 I hope so. And sexual creatures, yes, and also like 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:09.400 like willful creatures, you know what I mean, like people 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:13.040 with their own will we are. We are told that 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:18.680 we should subvert our own desires, be they sexual or otherwise, 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:23.840 in order to raise our children. But I don't think 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.120 it's serving I don't think children either. I don't think 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:27.960 it serves the children. 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:29.520 I don't. I absolutely don't. 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:31.880 I think that. I certainly doesn't serve humanity. We need 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:34.439 we need moms to be their full selves. 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:39.320 Yes, yes, yes, and yes. So this happens. How do 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:42.760 you then move into an open marriage? What are the 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:46.760 conversations like that get you from there to there? 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:50.480 Yeah? I mean we went through a lot of different evolutions, 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:52.440 and there were a few times when I did want 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:57.960 to close the marriage. My husband said to me more 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:00.679 than once, Molly, you're going to change your mind. As 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:02.920 soon as you meet someone, You're going to change your mind. 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.200 And he wasn't wrong. But the other person that I 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.400 had in my ear was my mother, because my mother 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:12.880 also had an open marriage, but she never told me 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:17.640 about it. So part of the reason that we persevered 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.960 for so many years, even when things were hard, is 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:24.800 that my mother was there on the other side of 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:29.480 all this, still happily married to my father, saying to me, oh, honey, yeah, 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:34.080 I remember those conversations. I remember those feelings. You know, 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:38.120 don't worry. You know, you could close your marriage, you 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:40.880 could leave it open. It's all about just paying attention 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:45.840 to yourself and continuing to talk to your husband, and 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.760 it's going to be okay. So I was getting this 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:51.400 like kind of curiosity about myself and wanting to push 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:55.680 through it. So many ups and downs. But really it 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.240 went from me fearing falling in love with another person, 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.920 and fearing my husband falling in love with another person, 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:07.240 to finally being at a place where I understood for 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:11.120 myself anyway that that could happen and it would actually 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:14.960 make us stronger and love each other more, which is 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:20.280 what has happened. It doesn't make any sense in some ways, 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:23.760 but that's what happened. But we had lots of rules 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:26.600 at the beginning that were all meant to contain it. 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:30.320 Our big rule was no falling in love, but we 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:32.240 had lots of other rules. And when I say we, 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:36.480 it was really me who was fictating the rules. And 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:40.280 over time those rules shifted, and my own understanding of 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.199 what I wanted shifted. I was also in therapy during 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:48.480 these ten years, and a lot of the evolution came 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:51.120 from our conversations, but I'd say even more of the 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:56.559 evolution came from my own inner dialogue and my discovery 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:59.520 of what it was I was looking for the whole time. 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:02.680 What did you think you wanted in the beginning, What 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:05.360 did you think that this was going to accomplish? 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:10.760 I wanted to escape. I wanted some excitement and adventure. 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:15.920 I wanted to be the anti mom. So I was thinking. 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:17.560 I was thinking. I used to go on trips with 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:20.640 my friends to Las Vegas too, Like the first time 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:23.880 was probably when my kids were one and four. We 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.880 went away for the weekend, so it was before we 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:30.360 opened our marriage. But it was so exhilarating. We thought 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:34.079 of if anybody knows park slope, it's like so mom 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:37.800 centric and everybody has a stroller, and so my friends 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.160 and I, who are also park slope moms, like, we 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:42.880 thought of Vegas as like the anti park slope too, 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:48.120 where it was just like because it is yes, totally irresponsible, ye, 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:51.160 nobody made like like the goal was to make zero 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:55.320 good decisions, you know what I mean, to be totally irresponsible. 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:57.640 And we had a blast. So but that would be 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.000 like we did that a few times, but it was 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:02.520 like three days and then you'd come back and you'd 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:06.000 be like you had seen this glimpse of this self 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:07.600 that was you know, it was just kind of running 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:11.320 the It was polarity though. It was like bouncing from 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.560 one extreme to the other as opposed to finding a 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:17.080 place in the middle. So I thought I just wanted 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:21.040 to run to the other end of the spectrum of irresponsibility. 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.240 But I think what I really was craving and what 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:27.280 I have achieved to a degree now anyway, is like 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.680 an integrated self where I can be my whole self 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:31.800 all the time. 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:35.320 We're going to take a quick break here. When we 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:37.480 get back, we'll talk about the rules that Molly and 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:43.520 her husband set for their open marriage. After you meet 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:45.840 the guy in the bar, you come home, you talk 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:50.120 to your husband. What were the main rules besides don't 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:50.800 fall in love? 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:57.440 Yeah, we had. I for example, didn't want him in 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.280 particular to date anybody that he might fin all in 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:04.720 love with. So they had to not like live nearby, 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:09.040 you know, no no exes. Although the first that rule 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:11.040 came after he dated his ex and then I was like, oh, 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:15.760 I don't like this. You know, sometimes something would happen 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:17.640 and then I would make a rule about it, like 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:20.080 make sure it didn't happen again. It feels like no 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:23.040 playing chess with anybody else, because that was our thing. 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:26.200 Yeah, I mean that one. That one is so fascinating 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:28.920 to me because you know, I mean, obviously you read 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:30.440 read things like this and then you're like, well, what 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:34.280 would my role be. What do you like to do together? Ye, 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:38.240 right now, it's nothing, But we did like to do 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.040 things together before we had a one year old. But 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:43.800 the the no chess. I liked that role. 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.120 But if you can imagine something you did used to 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.400 do that, you don't have time to do anymore if 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.360 you started doing that thing with somebody else. Even just 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:54.600 like if I, if I had thought of it, I 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:57.840 would have done, like, no reading the Sunday Times in 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.960 Central Part with anybody else, because that's what we used 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:02.960 to do. We used to like bring a picnic to 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:06.040 the park and the newspaper and hang out all day. 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:08.520 You know, if he were to do that with someone else, 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:10.880 I would want to kill him totally. 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:13.840 Well, I mean that brings me to another question that 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:17.840 I have always had for friends who have opened their marriages. 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:23.880 And I'm essentially living in the park slope of Philadelphia, so. 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.160 Every neighborhood, every city has their park. 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:28.960 Slope, every city has their park slope. And but you know, 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:32.120 we are seeing more of our friends opening up their 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:36.640 marriages and more women that I know having affairs, And 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:40.880 when I've talked to them, I'm like, you know, I 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:45.800 am a jealous bitch. And I know this about myself 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:50.600 so well that I don't know if I could personally 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:53.720 handle it, because I think I would seethe with rage 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:54.280 all the time. 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:58.280 Yeah I did. I did. Part of the reason that 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:02.240 I tolerated it is because I did it first, you 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:06.160 know what I mean, with his permission. And so then 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.840 when he wanted to see people too, I knew that 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.080 wasn't I knew I couldn't say no because you know 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:17.520 what I mean, that was I'm not I'm not illogical. 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.760 So I was like, all right, if I am seeing 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:23.080 other people, I need to let him see other people. 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:27.520 But it has taken a very long time for us 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.480 to get to the understanding that it is still harder 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:34.760 for me than it is for him in terms of jealousy. 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:38.040 It never really made him jealous in the same way 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:42.240 that it made me jealous. But what I read this 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:45.800 book right away, not right away, but early on, called 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:50.840 The Ethical Slut, Yeah yeah, the Bible of polyamory, and 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:52.360 it really is yeah yeah, yeah. 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:54.440 That was the first book that my friend read when 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:55.680 she opened her marriage. 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.359 It's also kind of when it was the only book 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:00.640 for quite some time. So now there are a few 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:02.960 more poly secure is a good one. I hope my 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:06.680 book will be helpful just as an individual deep dive 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:11.400 into what it was like. But I loved the line 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.280 they had that jealousy is just a mask for whatever 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:17.919 you have going on right now. And so for me, 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.080 when I dug underneath the jealousy, you didn't have to 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:24.000 go very far. There was anger, and you said, seething 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.520 with rage. There was anger that I didn't feel like 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:32.320 I had enough freedom and he did. And there was 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:35.960 insecurity that he was going to love somebody else more 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:40.360 than me. But when we dug under there, that led 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:45.440 to some real changes. Because if he was staying at work, 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:49.520 for example, and I was home with the kids, that 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.680 felt like, well, that was just the decision we made, right, 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.720 he made more money. I was a teacher. It makes 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.680 sense for me. You know. Eventually I did go back 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:00.680 to work, but I didn't have to. I was a teacher, 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:02.800 So I still picked the kids up from school and 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:05.320 had their vacations off and all of that. You're still 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:09.520 you're the primary parent, like ye, right, But once he 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:13.480 started dating, I could say, wait a minute, if you're 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.760 going out, I'm going it, you know, as opposed to 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.879 my feeling like I was supposed to stay at home 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.600 with the kids. It just it just changed enough for 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:30.040 me that I started giving myself permission to do something 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:34.120 that wasn't kid centric. And there was still a lot 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:37.760 of guilt around it, but ultimately I discovered this is 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:41.680 better for me. I am not walking around as an angry, 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:49.399 migrain riddled person. As I started to feel better in 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.800 my own skin, I started to realize this is actually 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:54.679 good for my kids too, and for my family and 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:57.959 for my marriage. But that wasn't like really the prime motive. 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:01.479 The primary motive was like I I felt broken and 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:06.199 I needed I needed to reestablish some time for myself 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:10.240 however I could. And in New York, I think it's 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:12.160 you know, it's probably the same where you are. It's 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:16.320 probably same for a lot of people. If one partner 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:19.080 is working all the time, because it is expensive to 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:21.840 raise kids in the city, and you do need someone 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:25.360 to make some dough, it's very hard to carve out 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:28.880 time for anything. But I think doing this shifted both 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:31.119 of our priorities a bit, and we started realizing we 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:35.240 need to realize them to live, started giving each other, 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:40.720 you know. Somehow, the time materialized partly we didn't sleep 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:43.399 as much. That was one thing. But I wasn't sleeping 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.359 much anyway. It's like, once you're down to five hours 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:49.960 of sleep a night, Hey, what's the difference between for 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:52.200 three and a half and five? 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:52.800 You know what I mean? 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:56.520 It's like I had the adrenaline at that point anyway. 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:00.600 But there were some things that started to become more 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:07.560 balanced in our relationship that made me appreciate what was 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:11.040 happening for him. I started to see some change too 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:14.919 in him, based on honestly, some of the women he 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:19.400 was dating too, some of the understanding he was getting 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.480 around what it's like to be a mother because a 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.040 lot of the women he was dating were also mothers. 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:28.520 Oh right, Yeah, And so my next book, actually Spoiler, 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:31.200 is going to be about the relationships with these other women. 0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:35.119 In polyamory, there's a term called metamoor, and it's your 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:39.160 partner's partner. And I haven't always met my partner's partner, 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:41.320 but I have a lot to thank them for in 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:45.439 terms of what they have taught my husband. And my 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:48.120 partner's wives always tend to love me, whether they've met 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:51.840 me or not, because I am their biggest advocate. I'm like, oh, no, 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:54.640 you're not going out tonight. Your kid is sick. Hell no, 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.119 go home, you know that kind of thing. So we 0:21:58.240 --> 0:21:59.920 kind of have each other's back to in this weird 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:01.360 sister wife kind of way. 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:04.760 Oh I'm very into that. I'm very into that. Well, 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:07.679 because it does a marriage. A marriage requires a village, 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:11.919 and I think that in America we've lost that village. 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:16.680 We've siloed ourselves into these very small nuclear units. 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:18.480 Absolutely, we no. 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:21.400 Longer have the brothers, the sisters, the cousins, the aunties, 0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:25.159 the uncles giving you advice, you know, pushing you in 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:27.359 the right direction. Like we think that we can do 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:30.520 this all ourselves, and the fact is we can't. Yeah, 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:34.000 I am so appreciative. I didn't marry my husband until 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:35.720 he was I think he was forty two. Yeah, he 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:38.679 was forty two, because he's turning fifty this year when 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:41.080 I was thirty five. And I'm so appreciative to all 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:44.400 of the women that dated him before. Yeah, because they 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:48.240 fixed him. I you know, they did. I mean I 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:50.280 still had to do so much work, and there's still 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:56.240 much more to do, but these women like already did 0:22:56.320 --> 0:22:57.800 put in all of the work that I had been 0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:00.119 putting in with these terrible men for years while I 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:04.159 was Yeah, so I got him as a fully formed 0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:08.720 human in the world. And the other interesting thing I 0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:11.600