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Speaker 1: Hello, She Wants More listeners, Joe Piazza here. I can't

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Speaker 1: believe that it's been a year since we launched this

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Speaker 1: wonderful show, but time flies, it really does. I don't

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Speaker 1: know about all of you, but I've been so busy.

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Speaker 1: My new novel, The Sicilian Inheritance, comes out in about

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Speaker 1: six weeks and it is available for pre order right now.

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Speaker 1: The Sicilian Inheritance is an adventurous mystery set in Sicily,

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Speaker 1: all about a woman who wants more, more out of life,

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Speaker 1: more out of everything, just like a lot of us.

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Speaker 1: And yes, there are some fairly steamy sex scenes. You

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Speaker 1: can order The Sicilian Inheritance right now wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your books now. This episode is actually from my other podcast,

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Speaker 1: Under the Influence, But when I landed this interview with

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Speaker 1: Molly Winter about her open marriage, I knew that I

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Speaker 1: had to drop it in the She Wants More feed.

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Speaker 1: Mollie is the New York Times best selling author of More,

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Speaker 1: a memoir where she writes so honestly about the first

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Speaker 1: ten years of opening up her marriage when her children

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Speaker 1: were young. In two thousand and eight, Molly and her

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Speaker 1: husband had been married for about ten years and then

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Speaker 1: Mollie met someone else. She was exhausted, her husband was

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Speaker 1: working all the time, and suddenly she just felt desire again.

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Speaker 1: And that was amazing. When she told her husband, he

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Speaker 1: wasn't mad, and he said, why don't you sleep with him?

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Speaker 1: Why don't you give this a try? Why don't we

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Speaker 1: open our marriage? And they did. This one line from

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Speaker 1: Mollie really stuck with me. She said, mothers in our

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Speaker 1: society are meant to put on a one sized fits

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Speaker 1: all mom suit and were meant to lop off all

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Speaker 1: the parts arts that don't fit inside the suit. It

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Speaker 1: just minimizes us and destroys so much of our feminine vitality.

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Speaker 1: I could not agree more. Molly's account of the first

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Speaker 1: ten years of her open marriage is raw and honest

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Speaker 1: and eye opening, and it has plenty of lessons for

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Speaker 1: people who don't want to open up their marriage, who

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Speaker 1: want to stay monogamous, but who just want a better

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Speaker 1: way of being a partner in the world. I love

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Speaker 1: this conversation with Molly, and I really think you're going

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Speaker 1: to too.

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Speaker 2: So before we opened our marriage, to said the scene,

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Speaker 2: my children were six and three years old. I had

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Speaker 2: just decided to stay home for I thought maybe a while,

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Speaker 2: but I lasted one year. I had been a teacher,

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Speaker 2: and I had decided to stay home because my youngest

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Speaker 2: needed some different therapies things like that, and it was

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Speaker 2: just I was having a lot of guilt around not

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Speaker 2: being home, so I decided to stay home and then

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Speaker 2: lost my mind. But my husband has always had to

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Speaker 2: work late, and I say has to kind of with

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Speaker 2: air quotes, but you know the truth is he was

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Speaker 2: running his own company. He's in New York doing music

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Speaker 2: for TV and movies, and so often late calls with

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Speaker 2: la blah blah blah. And so he came home really

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Speaker 2: late one night and I was just like done, and

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Speaker 2: I just walked out of my house, without my keys,

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Speaker 2: without my phone, and I ended up meeting a guy.

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Speaker 1: I think so many mothers can relate to that moment

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Speaker 1: right just where. You know, I know that you're working,

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Speaker 1: I know that you were doing things to support our family,

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Speaker 1: but I've also been doing this work at home all

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Speaker 1: day long, on the most most labor that is unacknowledged,

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Speaker 1: and I'm just at my I'm done, I'm at my

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Speaker 1: wits end. I have to walk away.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you have to walk away sometimes. And I

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Speaker 2: didn't realize what I was walking into when I walked away.

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Speaker 2: But we did have some precedent in our marriage before

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Speaker 2: we even got engaged, and when we were dating, like

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Speaker 2: my husband was kind of into my being with other people.

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Speaker 2: I was never that into it though, because it was

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Speaker 2: more in like a swingery kind of way. We had

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Speaker 2: gone to a couple sex clubs and had a three someones,

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Speaker 2: but that was all before we had kids. Once we

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Speaker 2: had kids, that was just shut down, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean. I could barely muster the energy to have

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Speaker 2: sex with my husband. So I knew that he was

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Speaker 2: a little into it. He had even said to me

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Speaker 2: also that if I ever wanted to sleep with someone

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Speaker 2: else once we were married, that if I wanted to,

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Speaker 2: I could just as long as I told him about it.

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Speaker 2: And part of that was his titillation, and part of

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Speaker 2: that was like he just you didn't want me to

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Speaker 2: lie to him, right right? So I knew there was

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Speaker 2: like a pos sibility, but I hadn't. I mean, it

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Speaker 2: was the farthest thing from my mind. So when I

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Speaker 2: walked into this bar, a friend of mine like found

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Speaker 2: me on the street just wandering and she was like,

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Speaker 2: come to the bar. With me. So I went to

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Speaker 2: the bar and it was one of her friends there,

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Speaker 2: and I was shocked that like desire course through my

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Speaker 2: body when I met this guy. So it wasn't like

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Speaker 2: I really had planned to open my marriage, and once

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Speaker 2: that happened, I didn't necessarily plan to act on it.

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Speaker 2: So the book tells the story of the first ten

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Speaker 2: years of our opening our marriage, starting at that point

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Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight when my kids were little,

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Speaker 2: and now they're nineteen and twenty two.

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Speaker 1: Almost oh gosh, they're grown ups. When people say that

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Speaker 1: to me, yeah, oh my gosh, Wow.

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Speaker 2: It happens. It does so long, and now I like

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Speaker 2: missed the little buggers. I'm like, no, it's it's crazy

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Speaker 2: how how intense it is and then how over it is.

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Speaker 2: But part of me wants to say from the get go,

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Speaker 2: it's like, with that endpoint in mind, like you're supposed

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Speaker 2: to leave your children to have their own lives eventually,

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Speaker 2: and if you don't preserve any part of yourself for

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Speaker 2: that moment, it's not good for anyone. You know. Ultimately,

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Speaker 2: you know it was there. It was probably escaping motherhood

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Speaker 2: that led me out the door that day. But it's

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Speaker 2: also been such an important piece of my own journey,

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Speaker 2: and I think has cultivate helped me to cultivate a

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Speaker 2: very authentic relationship with my children now that they're older.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I'll I have I have so many

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Speaker 1: more questions about that once we get down the road

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Speaker 1: a little bit. Sure, I want to go back to

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Speaker 1: that first night. So you're feeling desire for the first

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Speaker 1: time in a long time. I mean, I know what

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Speaker 1: it's like to just I mean, the desire faucet kind

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Speaker 1: of gets shut off for a while. I mean, for

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Speaker 1: some moment. We're all different, right, we are not a monolith,

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Speaker 1: but it can get shut off for a while after

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Speaker 1: you have kids, and when it's not even the having

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Speaker 1: of kids, it's the very physicality of motherhood too. Someone

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Speaker 1: is always touching your body and you're exhausted.

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Speaker 2: You're exhausted, exhausted.

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Speaker 1: Exhausted, and but you're feeling it for the first time,

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Speaker 1: and that is exciting. Was it also terrifying?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, exciting and terrifying, And I'd say those were

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Speaker 2: probably the two key emotions. For the first five years

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Speaker 2: or so, I was kind of vacillating between thrill and terror.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I wasn't bored though, so that was

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Speaker 2: good because I had been getting into a place where,

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Speaker 2: you know, like you can only in my day it

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Speaker 2: was like a lot of freaking Teletubbies and Nolo and

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Speaker 2: and Thomas the Tank Engine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're at like Bluey and Pepa Peg. Actually we

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Speaker 1: watch a lot of dinosaur crap in our house.

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Speaker 2: Where ours was it train household, primarily a lot of trains.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, it's really not you know it. There is

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Speaker 2: nothing to feed the kind of human woman part of

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Speaker 2: yourself that is not the maternal part for so long

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Speaker 2: that you kind of forget that you have this sort

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Speaker 2: of working body with sex orgs.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, a body, a body that want a body

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Speaker 1: that once had sex.

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Speaker 2: Right like like enthusiastically, you know place. And I think

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Speaker 2: I also had so much anger at my husband at

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Speaker 2: the time that I couldn't even when he was trying

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Speaker 2: to connect with me. I was just I was angry

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Speaker 2: at him, some for reasons that that were his fault,

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Speaker 2: and some for reasons that weren't his fault or that

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Speaker 2: went beyond him, that went into the larger patriarchy. And

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Speaker 2: for some reason, this young single guy who didn't see

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Speaker 2: me as a mom who had not impregnated me and

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Speaker 2: stayed late at work, you.

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Speaker 1: Know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I could see him with these fresh eyes that

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Speaker 2: I could not see my husband with anymore. So that

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Speaker 2: was part of it, I'm sure. And it's a complicated soup.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And that's the thing. It is all complicated.

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Speaker 1: I think that's what people have really responded to in

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Speaker 1: this She wants more podcasts. It's that women are complicated.

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Speaker 1: We are not one thing or and just one thing.

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Speaker 1: We are. We have so much that has not been

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Speaker 1: expressed in popular culture, and especially if you were a mother,

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Speaker 1: we have been told to be a certain way. We

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Speaker 1: do not see mothers as erotically charged, as sexual creatures.

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Speaker 1: And I think that your book is really breaking down

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Speaker 1: stereotypes around that.

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Speaker 2: I hope so. And sexual creatures, yes, and also like

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Speaker 2: like willful creatures, you know what I mean, like people

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Speaker 2: with their own will we are. We are told that

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Speaker 2: we should subvert our own desires, be they sexual or otherwise,

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Speaker 2: in order to raise our children. But I don't think

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Speaker 2: it's serving I don't think children either. I don't think

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Speaker 2: it serves the children.

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Speaker 1: I don't. I absolutely don't.

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Speaker 2: I think that. I certainly doesn't serve humanity. We need

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Speaker 2: we need moms to be their full selves.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, and yes. So this happens. How do

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Speaker 1: you then move into an open marriage? What are the

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Speaker 1: conversations like that get you from there to there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean we went through a lot of different evolutions,

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Speaker 2: and there were a few times when I did want

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Speaker 2: to close the marriage. My husband said to me more

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Speaker 2: than once, Molly, you're going to change your mind. As

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Speaker 2: soon as you meet someone, You're going to change your mind.

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Speaker 2: And he wasn't wrong. But the other person that I

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Speaker 2: had in my ear was my mother, because my mother

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Speaker 2: also had an open marriage, but she never told me

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Speaker 2: about it. So part of the reason that we persevered

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Speaker 2: for so many years, even when things were hard, is

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Speaker 2: that my mother was there on the other side of

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Speaker 2: all this, still happily married to my father, saying to me, oh, honey, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I remember those conversations. I remember those feelings. You know,

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Speaker 2: don't worry. You know, you could close your marriage, you

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Speaker 2: could leave it open. It's all about just paying attention

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Speaker 2: to yourself and continuing to talk to your husband, and

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Speaker 2: it's going to be okay. So I was getting this

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Speaker 2: like kind of curiosity about myself and wanting to push

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Speaker 2: through it. So many ups and downs. But really it

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Speaker 2: went from me fearing falling in love with another person,

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Speaker 2: and fearing my husband falling in love with another person,

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Speaker 2: to finally being at a place where I understood for

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Speaker 2: myself anyway that that could happen and it would actually

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Speaker 2: make us stronger and love each other more, which is

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Speaker 2: what has happened. It doesn't make any sense in some ways,

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Speaker 2: but that's what happened. But we had lots of rules

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Speaker 2: at the beginning that were all meant to contain it.

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Speaker 2: Our big rule was no falling in love, but we

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Speaker 2: had lots of other rules. And when I say we,

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Speaker 2: it was really me who was fictating the rules. And

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Speaker 2: over time those rules shifted, and my own understanding of

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Speaker 2: what I wanted shifted. I was also in therapy during

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Speaker 2: these ten years, and a lot of the evolution came

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Speaker 2: from our conversations, but I'd say even more of the

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Speaker 2: evolution came from my own inner dialogue and my discovery

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Speaker 2: of what it was I was looking for the whole time.

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Speaker 1: What did you think you wanted in the beginning, What

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Speaker 1: did you think that this was going to accomplish?

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Speaker 2: I wanted to escape. I wanted some excitement and adventure.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to be the anti mom. So I was thinking.

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Speaker 2: I was thinking. I used to go on trips with

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Speaker 2: my friends to Las Vegas too, Like the first time

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Speaker 2: was probably when my kids were one and four. We

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Speaker 2: went away for the weekend, so it was before we

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Speaker 2: opened our marriage. But it was so exhilarating. We thought

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Speaker 2: of if anybody knows park slope, it's like so mom

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Speaker 2: centric and everybody has a stroller, and so my friends

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Speaker 2: and I, who are also park slope moms, like, we

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Speaker 2: thought of Vegas as like the anti park slope too,

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Speaker 2: where it was just like because it is yes, totally irresponsible, ye,

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Speaker 2: nobody made like like the goal was to make zero

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Speaker 2: good decisions, you know what I mean, to be totally irresponsible.

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Speaker 2: And we had a blast. So but that would be

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Speaker 2: like we did that a few times, but it was

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Speaker 2: like three days and then you'd come back and you'd

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Speaker 2: be like you had seen this glimpse of this self

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Speaker 2: that was you know, it was just kind of running

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Speaker 2: the It was polarity though. It was like bouncing from

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Speaker 2: one extreme to the other as opposed to finding a

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Speaker 2: place in the middle. So I thought I just wanted

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Speaker 2: to run to the other end of the spectrum of irresponsibility.

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Speaker 2: But I think what I really was craving and what

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Speaker 2: I have achieved to a degree now anyway, is like

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Speaker 2: an integrated self where I can be my whole self

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Speaker 2: all the time.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break here. When we

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Speaker 1: get back, we'll talk about the rules that Molly and

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Speaker 1: her husband set for their open marriage. After you meet

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Speaker 1: the guy in the bar, you come home, you talk

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Speaker 1: to your husband. What were the main rules besides don't

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Speaker 1: fall in love?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we had. I for example, didn't want him in

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Speaker 2: particular to date anybody that he might fin all in

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Speaker 2: love with. So they had to not like live nearby,

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Speaker 2: you know, no no exes. Although the first that rule

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Speaker 2: came after he dated his ex and then I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I don't like this. You know, sometimes something would happen

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Speaker 2: and then I would make a rule about it, like

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Speaker 2: make sure it didn't happen again. It feels like no

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Speaker 2: playing chess with anybody else, because that was our thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that one. That one is so fascinating

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Speaker 1: to me because you know, I mean, obviously you read

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Speaker 1: read things like this and then you're like, well, what

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Speaker 1: would my role be. What do you like to do together? Ye,

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Speaker 1: right now, it's nothing, But we did like to do

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Speaker 1: things together before we had a one year old. But

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Speaker 1: the the no chess. I liked that role.

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Speaker 2: But if you can imagine something you did used to

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Speaker 2: do that, you don't have time to do anymore if

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Speaker 2: you started doing that thing with somebody else. Even just

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Speaker 2: like if I, if I had thought of it, I

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Speaker 2: would have done, like, no reading the Sunday Times in

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Speaker 2: Central Part with anybody else, because that's what we used

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Speaker 2: to do. We used to like bring a picnic to

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Speaker 2: the park and the newspaper and hang out all day.

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Speaker 2: You know, if he were to do that with someone else,

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Speaker 2: I would want to kill him totally.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean that brings me to another question that

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Speaker 1: I have always had for friends who have opened their marriages.

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Speaker 1: And I'm essentially living in the park slope of Philadelphia, so.

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Speaker 2: Every neighborhood, every city has their park.

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Speaker 1: Slope, every city has their park slope. And but you know,

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Speaker 1: we are seeing more of our friends opening up their

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Speaker 1: marriages and more women that I know having affairs, And

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Speaker 1: when I've talked to them, I'm like, you know, I

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Speaker 1: am a jealous bitch. And I know this about myself

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Speaker 1: so well that I don't know if I could personally

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Speaker 1: handle it, because I think I would seethe with rage

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Speaker 1: all the time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah I did. I did. Part of the reason that

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Speaker 2: I tolerated it is because I did it first, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean, with his permission. And so then

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Speaker 2: when he wanted to see people too, I knew that

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Speaker 2: wasn't I knew I couldn't say no because you know

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Speaker 2: what I mean, that was I'm not I'm not illogical.

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Speaker 2: So I was like, all right, if I am seeing

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Speaker 2: other people, I need to let him see other people.

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Speaker 2: But it has taken a very long time for us

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Speaker 2: to get to the understanding that it is still harder

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Speaker 2: for me than it is for him in terms of jealousy.

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Speaker 2: It never really made him jealous in the same way

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Speaker 2: that it made me jealous. But what I read this

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Speaker 2: book right away, not right away, but early on, called

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Speaker 2: The Ethical Slut, Yeah yeah, the Bible of polyamory, and

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Speaker 2: it really is yeah yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: That was the first book that my friend read when

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Speaker 1: she opened her marriage.

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Speaker 2: It's also kind of when it was the only book

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Speaker 2: for quite some time. So now there are a few

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Speaker 2: more poly secure is a good one. I hope my

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Speaker 2: book will be helpful just as an individual deep dive

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Speaker 2: into what it was like. But I loved the line

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Speaker 2: they had that jealousy is just a mask for whatever

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Speaker 2: you have going on right now. And so for me,

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Speaker 2: when I dug underneath the jealousy, you didn't have to

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Speaker 2: go very far. There was anger, and you said, seething

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Speaker 2: with rage. There was anger that I didn't feel like

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Speaker 2: I had enough freedom and he did. And there was

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Speaker 2: insecurity that he was going to love somebody else more

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Speaker 2: than me. But when we dug under there, that led

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Speaker 2: to some real changes. Because if he was staying at work,

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Speaker 2: for example, and I was home with the kids, that

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Speaker 2: felt like, well, that was just the decision we made, right,

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Speaker 2: he made more money. I was a teacher. It makes

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Speaker 2: sense for me. You know. Eventually I did go back

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Speaker 2: to work, but I didn't have to. I was a teacher,

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Speaker 2: So I still picked the kids up from school and

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Speaker 2: had their vacations off and all of that. You're still

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Speaker 2: you're the primary parent, like ye, right, But once he

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Speaker 2: started dating, I could say, wait a minute, if you're

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Speaker 2: going out, I'm going it, you know, as opposed to

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Speaker 2: my feeling like I was supposed to stay at home

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Speaker 2: with the kids. It just it just changed enough for

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Speaker 2: me that I started giving myself permission to do something

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Speaker 2: that wasn't kid centric. And there was still a lot

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Speaker 2: of guilt around it, but ultimately I discovered this is

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Speaker 2: better for me. I am not walking around as an angry,

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Speaker 2: migrain riddled person. As I started to feel better in

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Speaker 2: my own skin, I started to realize this is actually

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Speaker 2: good for my kids too, and for my family and

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Speaker 2: for my marriage. But that wasn't like really the prime motive.

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Speaker 2: The primary motive was like I I felt broken and

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Speaker 2: I needed I needed to reestablish some time for myself

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Speaker 2: however I could. And in New York, I think it's

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Speaker 2: you know, it's probably the same where you are. It's

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Speaker 2: probably same for a lot of people. If one partner

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Speaker 2: is working all the time, because it is expensive to

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Speaker 2: raise kids in the city, and you do need someone

350
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Speaker 2: to make some dough, it's very hard to carve out

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Speaker 2: time for anything. But I think doing this shifted both

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Speaker 2: of our priorities a bit, and we started realizing we

353
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Speaker 2: need to realize them to live, started giving each other,

354
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Speaker 2: you know. Somehow, the time materialized partly we didn't sleep

355
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Speaker 2: as much. That was one thing. But I wasn't sleeping

356
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Speaker 2: much anyway. It's like, once you're down to five hours

357
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Speaker 2: of sleep a night, Hey, what's the difference between for

358
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Speaker 2: three and a half and five?

359
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Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: It's like I had the adrenaline at that point anyway.

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Speaker 2: But there were some things that started to become more

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Speaker 2: balanced in our relationship that made me appreciate what was

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Speaker 2: happening for him. I started to see some change too

364
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Speaker 2: in him, based on honestly, some of the women he

365
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,400
Speaker 2: was dating too, some of the understanding he was getting

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Speaker 2: around what it's like to be a mother because a

367
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Speaker 2: lot of the women he was dating were also mothers.

368
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Speaker 2: Oh right, Yeah, And so my next book, actually Spoiler,

369
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Speaker 2: is going to be about the relationships with these other women.

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Speaker 2: In polyamory, there's a term called metamoor, and it's your

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Speaker 2: partner's partner. And I haven't always met my partner's partner,

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Speaker 2: but I have a lot to thank them for in

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Speaker 2: terms of what they have taught my husband. And my

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Speaker 2: partner's wives always tend to love me, whether they've met

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Speaker 2: me or not, because I am their biggest advocate. I'm like, oh, no,

376
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Speaker 2: you're not going out tonight. Your kid is sick. Hell no,

377
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Speaker 2: go home, you know that kind of thing. So we

378
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Speaker 2: kind of have each other's back to in this weird

379
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Speaker 2: sister wife kind of way.

380
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Speaker 1: Oh I'm very into that. I'm very into that. Well,

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Speaker 1: because it does a marriage. A marriage requires a village,

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Speaker 1: and I think that in America we've lost that village.

383
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Speaker 1: We've siloed ourselves into these very small nuclear units.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, we no.

385
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Speaker 1: Longer have the brothers, the sisters, the cousins, the aunties,

386
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Speaker 1: the uncles giving you advice, you know, pushing you in

387
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Speaker 1: the right direction. Like we think that we can do

388
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Speaker 1: this all ourselves, and the fact is we can't. Yeah,

389
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Speaker 1: I am so appreciative. I didn't marry my husband until

390
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Speaker 1: he was I think he was forty two. Yeah, he

391
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Speaker 1: was forty two, because he's turning fifty this year when

392
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Speaker 1: I was thirty five. And I'm so appreciative to all

393
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Speaker 1: of the women that dated him before. Yeah, because they

394
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Speaker 1: fixed him. I you know, they did. I mean I

395
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Speaker 1: still had to do so much work, and there's still

396
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Speaker 1: much more to do, but these women like already did

397
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Speaker 1: put in all of the work that I had been

398
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Speaker 1: putting in with these terrible men for years while I

399
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Speaker 1: was Yeah, so I got him as a fully formed

400
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Speaker 1: human in the world. And the other interesting thing I

401
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Speaker 1: have to say about this is we live in a

402
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Speaker 1: society where I don't think men have nearly enough space

403
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Speaker 1: to have relationships with women. If you had more of

404
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Speaker 1: like a council or a coven of female friends, then

405
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Speaker 1: they would be telling you how to better be a

406
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Speaker 1: partner in the world.

407
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Speaker 2: But that is so good. I love that idea.

408
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 1: Male female relationships are always only sexual.

409
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Speaker 2: And that's actually kind of a joke in polyamory that

410
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 2: like people say swingers have sex without talking, and polyamorous

411
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: people talk without having sex, And like, I do have

412
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Speaker 2: partners now that like maybe we used to be sexual

413
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 2: in the past, but we're not anymore, but like we

414
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 2: still hang out because there's also something lovely about the

415
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 2: intimacy that has been established. Early on, five of my

416
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 2: husband's ex girlfriends were at our wedding, like he always

417
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: has stayed friends with his exes.

418
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Speaker 1: Stame, stame I had. We had four of his exes

419
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Speaker 1: at our wedding, and we had three of mine.

420
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Speaker 2: Very nice. We had zero of mine because I only

421
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 2: had one ex and I no longer could talk to him.

422
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 2: So I hadn't ever really dated widely. I got married.

423
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: I met my husband when I was twenty three, so

424
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 2: i'll you're a baby. I was, and so he is

425
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: five years older. He had dated more, but was also

426
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 2: you know, he was thirty blond when you got married.

427
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 2: So I feel like you are so right and and

428
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 2: you know, you remember I think it was Mike Pence

429
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 2: who said in an interview, like you wouldn't even have

430
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 2: lunch with a female colleague or something like that, Like,

431
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 2: think about when men have no interaction with women, what

432
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 2: are they think the world is?

433
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: Come on, come on, No, exactly exactly, And it's so

434
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: many of the women that I've interviewed for she wants

435
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: More say, it's just been world opening for everyone. The

436
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 1: kinds of connections that you can make are not just sexual.

437
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 1: You are making friends. I have friends that are like,

438
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: you know, I've made some really good business contact.

439
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, one of my partners just got like a

440
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 2: great apartment.

441
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: Yes. No, it's like you just don't know, you just

442
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: don't know.

443
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 2: It's a wonderful network.

444
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: Often, yeah, but usually, I mean there is this paradigm

445
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: that when we get married, we shut ourselves off to

446
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 1: opening up like that in that way except for a

447
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: couple friends and things like that. So I do. I

448
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: think there is so much that we can learn people

449
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 1: who don't even want to open up their marriages, just

450
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: from the model of polyamory about what all of us

451
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 1: are missing out on as human beings.

452
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And Yeah, a good friend of mine who's monogamous

453
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 2: but is still close friends with one of her ex boyfriends,

454
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 2: she said, like reading my book actually helped her talk

455
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 2: to her husband a little, because like she really wanted

456
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 2: to go away for a weekend trip with her ex

457
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 2: boyfriend because like they miss each other, and so they

458
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 2: did and it was just like it was just like revelatory.

459
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 2: They have such a good time, and they came back

460
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: more kind of like juice to be with their partners too,

461
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 2: And she was like, and nothing sexual happened. I'm not

462
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: attracted to him anymore, but he's like my brother and

463
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 2: the fact that like I can't hang out with him

464
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 2: unchaperoned anymore or something, it's like it's upsetting, you know.

465
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 2: So I love this idea that we're gonnaproach that kind

466
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: of thing too. And my parents also, who had an

467
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 2: open marriage. They are still close friends with some of

468
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 2: their former partners. And that's like what my mother's main

469
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,120
Speaker 2: partner when I was a kid, I knew him as

470
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 2: her best friend. I didn't know anything else was going on.

471
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 2: I didn't find out till my aunt told me when

472
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 2: I was twenty eight, and I was like, ooh.

473
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll tell the audience a little bit about that moment. That,

474
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 1: so you found out that your parents had had an

475
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 1: open marriage.

476
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was it was before we had opened

477
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 2: opened but after we had done some of the like

478
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 2: you know, a couple sex clubs, threesome or two kind

479
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 2: of thing that I was like, oh, I'm not into it.

480
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 2: And then my aunt told me that my mother had

481
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 2: had an affair with her best friend. It took me

482
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 2: a year to confront my mother about it, and when

483
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 2: I did, I asked her if my dad knew, and

484
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 2: she said, well, it was your father's idea, but she

485
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: never used the term open marriage, and so it wasn't then.

486
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 2: We didn't have another conversation about it until after I

487
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: had opened my marriage and wanted to talk to her

488
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 2: because it took a while for me to realize what

489
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 2: I was really looking for was that kind of connection

490
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 2: that she had with a guy, you know, I love.

491
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 2: I loved the friendship she had with this guy who

492
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 2: I called Jim and the story, and I wanted that

493
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 2: for myself. So I feel like that is part of

494
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 2: what I have gained. But it took me a while

495
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 2: to get there because I was also so afraid of

496
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 2: falling in love or of my husband falling in love

497
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 2: that I was trying to keep my contact with other

498
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 2: men very superficial for a while. So I feel like

499
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 2: the first half of the book is almost sad in

500
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 2: some ways because of I didn't quite know what I

501
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: was looking for. But I wanted to show readers kind

502
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 2: of like what the trajectory really looked like for me.

503
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 2: So I wrote it in present tense to really be

504
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: in that place and not look back with more with

505
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: a wiser eye. I wanted to really show what was

506
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 2: happening for me during those years, which was really from

507
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 2: age thirty five to forty five, which is how part

508
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 2: of it was looking for friendship, looking for connection.

509
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, And in the beginning, how was the suck?

510
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: Was it satisfying or were you trying lots of different

511
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: things and not necessarily getting what you wanted, or was

512
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: your mind blown right away?

513
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 2: My mind was not blown right away. No, my mind

514
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: was blown occasionally by things I discovered I liked, you

515
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 2: know what I mean, things that were you know. I

516
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 2: still consider myself pretty vanilla overall, because once you dip

517
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: a toe into this world, like I don't know if

518
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 2: anybody's ever been on the field app but I went

519
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 2: on field when I was in London, partly because I

520
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: just wanted to see if there was an open marriage

521
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 2: scene there. Yeah, And seeing I was non monogamous, everybody

522
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 2: kept inviting me to like dungeon parties and I was like, oh, no, no, oh,

523
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,479
Speaker 2: I'm not into I'm that. And the assumption was if

524
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,239
Speaker 2: you're non monogamous, you're like into BDSM, and I'm like, well,

525
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 2: that's not what I was into. So I'm pretty vanilla,

526
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 2: I think. But one man's vanilla is another man's kink, right, So.

527
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm actually I'm working on an essay right now.

528
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: Uh as I'm promoting my new my new novel, The

529
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: Sicilian Inheritance, because I put some some steamy sex scenes

530
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: in it. But I'm like, yeah, I mean steamy enough, right,

531
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: Like average person sex and uh, but I'm writing and

532
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: I say, how do you write steamy sex scenes when

533
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,719
Speaker 1: you actually really like vanilla sex? Like when I'm just like,

534
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: I'm like, whoa, I get off on Missionary.

535
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 2: What's hilarious is people when people have described my book

536
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 2: as like steamy or like raunchy, I'm like, are you Jill.

537
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: It shocked me.

538
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 2: It shocked me because I don't think it's that raunchy.

539
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: I don't think it is either. It's just honest. It's

540
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: honest about sex, but it happens in the.

541
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: World and it's not it's not painted over with some

542
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: sort of like gauzy filter, you know what I mean.

543
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 2: It's not wort in sex, and it's not. It's like

544
00:30:54,400 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 2: there's like fluids and sounds, and you know, it's a

545
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 2: gross and sad in some places, but it grows.

546
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: It has gross and sad in some places, and it's

547
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: and it's and it seems great and fun in other places.

548
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: I will tell you I think that the Times really

549
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: just wanted an excuse to write butt Plug. They're like,

550
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: They're like, we are never going to get butt Plug

551
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: past the standards department, except right now, so we say

552
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,479
Speaker 1: right now, I mean, I.

553
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: Say butt plug whenever I can, and I'll be honest,

554
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: I haven't used a butt plug in many years, but

555
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 2: but plug, I's a plug for butt plugs. No, I

556
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 2: but it like taught me something about myself. It taught

557
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 2: me to like look at my anus, which I had

558
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 2: not done before, and like explore a little bit and

559
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 2: realize that sometimes shit comes out during sex and yeah,

560
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 2: you know, nobody talks about that. And the truth is,

561
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 2: if you can't be comfortable with someone if a little

562
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: shit comes out during sex, that's not going to be good.

563
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 2: So oh and I tried not to talk. I don't

564
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 2: know if they're the shit during sex scene might have

565
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: gotten cut from my book, but there's sometimes this shit.

566
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: There's sh there's shit and yeah, I mean the Bodley

567
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: fluids galore galore.

568
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's funny sometimes and if so. Part

569
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 2: of what I learned in this exploration was I need

570
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 2: someone I can laugh with, and I need little one

571
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: who's not gonna take it all too seriously. And I

572
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 2: needed to not feel like a performance. But that's partly

573
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: because I felt like it was a performance for a

574
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: lot of years now with my husband. But I was,

575
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: you know, I was exploring. I hadn't done the whole

576
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 2: dating thing in my twenties. Ever, I hadn't really ever

577
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 2: done it. And for friends of mine who were single

578
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 2: throughout their twenties, they may not want open relationships, but

579
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: they still might want male friends, or they still might

580
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 2: want freedom in these other ways. So I think it

581
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 2: looks different for different people what you're gonna want, But

582
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: I didn't ever get that. So it was something I

583
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,479
Speaker 2: think I needed to do to get in touch with

584
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 2: my own body and my own physicality and my own

585
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 2: erraticism in a way I never had.

586
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I hear that. It is amazing how many

587
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: similarities I hear. And that's why, like so many of

588
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: this does feel universal to the female experience, and yet

589
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: we haven't talked about and yet we haven't talked about it.

590
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: But yes, so many women, especially women that got married young,

591
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: said I didn't even know what I liked to do.

592
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: I just started having this kind of sex because I

593
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: thought that's the kind of sex I wanted to be having,

594
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: and I didn't know what turned me on. And yeah,

595
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: and you know, are like, this is why exploring now

596
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: in my thirties and forties' that's part of why I

597
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: had to do it.

598
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it doesn't. And it feels like, as you

599
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 2: were saying before, with mothers that were I've used this

600
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 2: line before, but you know, it feels like we're we're

601
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: meant to put on this one size fits all mom

602
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: suit and we have to lap of the parts of

603
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 2: ourselves that don't fit inside. And it's just minimizing for

604
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 2: such a big swath of the female population that we

605
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 2: are denying our society the full vitality of like feminine

606
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 2: energy is. It feels that vital to me. The more

607
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 2: women I've talked to, even in the few weeks since

608
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 2: my book came out, I've been feeling it more stridently.

609
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 2: You know that you don't know how much your story

610
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 2: is going to resonate with other people until people start

611
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 2: responding to it. But because of the responses I've been getting,

612
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 2: it seems really quite critical to me now that this

613
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,439
Speaker 2: is something that women's full expression, whether that's through open

614
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 2: marriage or not. I don't have a vested interest in

615
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 2: everybody being polyamorous, so I haven't written a manifesto, but

616
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: I do think our society has a vested interest in

617
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 2: the full expression of women and for men to be

618
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 2: exposed to more that I led. So I love your

619
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 2: idea about more men having female friendships, like more, more,

620
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 2: more women. That's not what I meant initially when I

621
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 2: have the word more in my book as my title.

622
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 2: But I think it's more a lot of things, and

623
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: more feminine energy as one of them.

624
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: Yes, more feminine energy, more conversation, you know, more, yes,

625
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: more and more and more. How did you come up

626
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 1: with the title for the book.

627
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, my title was initially the Experiment because it

628
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 2: felt like this grand experiment, but it sounded yeah that

629
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 2: my my publisher didn't like that, and so then we

630
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 2: switched to Open. But then Rachel Krantz wrote a book

631
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: called Open about her own open relationship, which is very

632
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,240
Speaker 2: different from mine, and I'm a big fan of having

633
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 2: lots of different takes. She was, you know, single, not

634
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 2: not with kids, and so it was just an open relationship,

635
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 2: which led her down a very different road than it

636
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: led me down. So but so we needed a new title,

637
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, no, I don't have a

638
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 2: new title. I don't have another title. And then it

639
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 2: was during I Meditate. I started meditating after the period

640
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 2: that the book takes place, and the title came to

641
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 2: me in a meditation, and I was, like my mother

642
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 2: says to me, more than once in the book when

643
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: I was. The first time was when I was breaking

644
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 2: up with somebody, and I love it that when I

645
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 2: was breaking up with someone, the two people who really

646
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: consoled me were my husband and my mother, usually the

647
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 2: two last people you could tell. But my friends didn't

648
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 2: really handle it at the time. They couldn't wrap their

649
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 2: heads around what I was doing. Everybody gets it now

650
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 2: because they've seen that my life didn't implode, and now

651
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,280
Speaker 2: they actually seek advice for me all the time because

652
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 2: they think I'm actually pretty good at this relationship thing.

653
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 2: But my mother said, oh, sweetie, don't worry, there will

654
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: be more, and she had more than one partner. But

655
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 2: I think I come to understand that there will be

656
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 2: a lot more of a lot of things when you

657
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 2: open yourself up to the truest expression of yourself.

658
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, and God right, yes.

659
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 2: And how else are you going to grow if you

660
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 2: don't have some pain? Right? I think in our society too,

661
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 2: we think and I get this question a lot, like, well,

662
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 2: it seems like you were having a lot of difficulty

663
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 2: in the early stages of opening up your marriage, why

664
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 2: didn't you close it or why didn't you get a divorce?

665
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, I also had a lot of

666
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 2: difficulty in the early stages of motherhood, but nobody says,

667
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,320
Speaker 2: why didn't you give your children up for a duction?

668
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: Yes, like, we know.

669
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 2: That sometimes things are hard, even when they're valuable, and

670
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,919
Speaker 2: maybe especially because they're valuable. Maybe that's where we learn

671
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,760
Speaker 2: and grow. So if we only have void the things

672
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: that are hard, not a lot would happen, and we wouldn't,

673
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 2: I think, do what we're supposed to do on this planet,

674
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 2: which is learn about ourselves through relationship. I think that's

675
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 2: a big part of the human experience. So I knew

676
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 2: I could tell, and therapy helped. Conversations with my husband

677
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 2: were essential, but I could tell something important was happening,

678
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 2: both for me and between us, and I didn't want

679
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 2: to turn my back on that and try to go

680
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 2: back into some safe space because I also knew I

681
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 2: was at a breaking point when this all began, so

682
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 2: recruiting to something that also hadn't been working for me

683
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 2: didn't feel like a great idea. And I loved my

684
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 2: husband and I did not want to divorce them. People

685
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 2: have a hard get that.

686
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I mean that's that is the number one

687
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: thing that I've heard from people before they listened to

688
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: the podcast. They're like, if you're not happy to get

689
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: a divorce? Yeah, yeah, And that feels like the most

690
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: simplistic thing ever. I mean, it's almost in you know,

691
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 1: I've compared it to if you're not happy with your job,

692
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: quit There's a lot more to a job than your happiness.

693
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: There is supporting your family, there is the fact that

694
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 1: maybe maybe you do enjoy some parts of what you do,

695
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: like it is not all black and white. But people

696
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: love that line. They do. Yeah.

697
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,919
Speaker 2: And I've been accused, not a lot, but a couple

698
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 2: times of being anti divorce because one of my partners

699
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 2: was going through a divorce and I said something to sparagic.

700
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 2: But it was also like I didn't want him to

701
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 2: be in a divorce because then he wanted me to

702
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 2: be monogamous, so it was like it was going to

703
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 2: be complicated. But I am not anti divorce. I feel

704
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,919
Speaker 2: like the best marriage is though in the best partnerships

705
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 2: are those in which both people are giving each other

706
00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 2: freedom to grow throughout their lives. I can't still be

707
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 2: the same person I was when I was twenty three

708
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 2: when I met my husband. Now, if that were the expectation,

709
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 2: then I would get a divorce. If he didn't want

710
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: me to ever become more than I was at twenty three,

711
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be able to stay in my marriage. But

712
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,959
Speaker 2: he was encouraging me to do things and to grow

713
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 2: in ways that I do think I needed to grow.

714
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,760
Speaker 2: And I was also trying to give him the space

715
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: to do that, even though it was really really hard

716
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 2: for me, because I feel like that's what a good

717
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 2: marriage is. You let each other grow. And if we

718
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 2: had ended up growing away from each other and not

719
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 2: being in love with each other anymore, then I think

720
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 2: we would have gotten a divorce. But that's not what happened.

721
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 2: So I think we have to redefine what makes a

722
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 2: good marriage too. We think that monogamy automatically makes a

723
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 2: good marriage, and I don't think that's true. Nor do

724
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:58,919
Speaker 2: I think non monogamy makes a good marriage. I've seen

725
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 2: a lot of non monogamy as marriages end, and for

726
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 2: good reason. But you know, we have to think about

727
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 2: what it is that we're trying to achieve as human

728
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: beings in these partnerships, and can we change the container

729
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 2: as needed to make marriage work for people, and maybe

730
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 2: by introducing some more flexibility and some more conscious decision

731
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: making about what will our marriage look like, as opposed

732
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 2: to everybody adopting the same model that they were handed

733
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 2: by their parents.

734
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: Right right. I mean it is interesting because we have,

735
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: you know, blown up so many other models and so

736
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: many other industries and evolved, and yet marriage does remain

737
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 1: this kind of one institution that people get very nervous

738
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: when you talk about doing anything different.

739
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 2: I heard like Dan Savage talking about this on the

740
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 2: Savage Lovecast that like, I didn't know this, that there

741
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 2: were like right wing conspiracies out there that like all

742
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 2: this talk about polyamory was you know, some sort of

743
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 2: like takedown of the nuclear family. And he was funny,

744
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 2: so he mentioned my book and was like, no, it's

745
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 2: just like a really good pr campaign vibe who wrote

746
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 2: a book, you know what I mean? And I'm like,

747
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: thank you publicist at Double Day. And it's true in

748
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 2: some ways, but I'm like, I had no idea that

749
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 2: people were like, it's been crazy. People are like really upset,

750
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I just told my story. I didn't

751
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 2: even it's how too manual, it's not in anything except

752
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: my story, and it's so threatening to people.

753
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: This is just your life, y And yes, and I

754
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 1: think that women's stories are threatening to people. I do.

755
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 1: I saw that so much. We had a lot of

756
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: hate thrown at us for even daring to publish podcasts

757
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 1: about women having affairs. Yeah, we were told very similar things,

758
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: that we were undermining the institution of marriage, that we

759
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 1: were undermining the nuclear family, that this was some kind

760
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: of liberal agenda as opposed to a woman just talking

761
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 1: about her life.

762
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,399
Speaker 2: And crying for help sometimes too, you know what I mean,

763
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 2: like for help sometimes in many ways, that my opening

764
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 2: my marriage was started out as a cry for help,

765
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 2: you know. And it could have gone a number of

766
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 2: different ways. And I could have learned everything that I

767
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 2: needed to learn about myself and then closed my marriage

768
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 2: and that would have been fine too, you know. Or

769
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:41,439
Speaker 2: I might have cried for help in a different way.

770
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 2: It turned out that this was something that I changed

771
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: the way I was doing it many many times. And

772
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,959
Speaker 2: the way it looks now is different than it looked

773
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 2: even at the end of the book, which ends in

774
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen. But that's because life is long, and I'm

775
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 2: changing as a person, and that to me that I

776
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 2: keep evolving and growing. I love being fifty one. It's

777
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,879
Speaker 2: way better than forty one, which was way better than

778
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 2: thirty one, which was way better than twenty one. So

779
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 2: I can't like I'm loving my fifties. And I feel

780
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 2: like we also need to model for younger women that

781
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 2: life doesn't end when you get married, and life doesn't

782
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 2: end again when your kids leave. Like m h, I

783
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 2: cried for a little while when I dropped my youngst

784
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: at school to college, but then it's been kind of fantastic,

785
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:40,399
Speaker 2: I have to say. And I feel like you're kind

786
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 2: of not supposed to say that either. But it's better

787
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 2: for my kid that I'm not like calling him constantly

788
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 2: and sobbing and like where, well, well I do with myself,

789
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 2: Like why would we do? Why would I waste all

790
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 2: of this potential, all the things I've learned by just

791
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 2: sobbing over my empty nest for the rest of my life,

792
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 2: which is kind of what the image that I wish show.

793
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 1: Yes, well, also just the way of do you just

794
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,399
Speaker 1: described it an empty nest? You're empty now? Yes?

795
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 2: And empty? Right? You're the other one. I love us,

796
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 2: the selfless mother, the mother who has no self mm hmm,

797
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 2: rightm hmm. You're just avoid you're just annoyed.

798
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: I mean about that too, with words like stay at

799
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 1: home mother. Yeah, oh you're not. You're not You're not

800
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,320
Speaker 1: a work at home mother. You're just staying, just staying,

801
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: not a last Yeah, yeah, I know. The words we

802
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: use to describe women are terrible, and we could only

803
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: break it with stories. That is the only way we

804
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 1: can fix anything. Yeah, it is true, It is so true.

805
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: We are going to take a quick break here, and

806
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,280
Speaker 1: when we get back, I want to talk to Mollie

807
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: about when she first talked to her kids about having

808
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: an open marriage. When did you first talk to your

809
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: children about having an open marriage?

810
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I didn't handle this great. I I was

811
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 2: trying to hide it from my kids, just like my

812
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 2: mother hid it from me. Even though I came to

813
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:15,879
Speaker 2: see that it was like I was glad I knew,

814
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 2: but I always had a little ambivalence, like did I

815
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 2: want to know when I was a kid? Did I

816
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 2: not want to know? You know? Am I glad she

817
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 2: didn't tell me? So I hadn't really worked it out.

818
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 2: But then, because we're in a different era. My oldest

819
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 2: found my husband's okay Cupid profile when he went to

820
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 2: use his laptop, because my husband is not, you know,

821
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 2: a good he's sloppy.

822
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 1: Shitty spy. You're a shitty spy, is what you are? Yeah,

823
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: you would not be a good spy.

824
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 2: No, And we're both terrible liars too, which is partly

825
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 2: why one of our rules. At one point I wanted

826
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,439
Speaker 2: like a don't ask, don't tell, but then I ended

827
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 2: up yelling at him, at my husband because he wasn't

828
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 2: lying well enough, and I was like, Okay, this is

829
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 2: not good. This is not all fad. So we got

830
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,280
Speaker 2: rid of that one. But my oldest, when he was thirteen,

831
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 2: found the okqpid profile and thought that my husband was

832
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:11,879
Speaker 2: having an affair. So that conversation is the prologue for

833
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 2: my book how that went and it wasn't. And then

834
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 2: I still didn't want my youngest to find out, but

835
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 2: he found out in a similar way when he was fourteen,

836
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 2: so now they both know. And I think it's kind

837
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 2: of a tricky thing because where I've landed is that

838
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 2: there is a difference. You know, privacy is important and

839
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 2: boundaries are important, but authenticity is also important. And it's

840
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 2: kind of like the cocktail. It's kind of also like

841
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 2: if you're married and living with your husband and you

842
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 2: don't you know, you don't necessarily announce, hey, kids, we're

843
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 2: going upstairs to have sex. Although there was an article

844
00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 2: about this, I think it was in The Atlantic recently

845
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 2: about like how do parents get it on?

846
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: I didn't read it yet. I should read it.

847
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty good, but it was like it was

848
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 2: an interesting kind of poll. They were like twenty percent

849
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 2: of parents said that they tell their children that they

850
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 2: need time to be intimate or something, but they use

851
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 2: kind of like coach, you know, couch it in I

852
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 2: don't know, vague language, right. But that's also kind of like,

853
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 2: you know, nobody knows kind of how to talk about

854
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 2: sex with their kids period, or even just acknowledging that

855
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 2: you have sex with your with your the father of

856
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 2: your children, you know what I mean, let alone having

857
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 2: sex with adults side of the marriage. So I think

858
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 2: there needs to be more done collectively to normalize this.

859
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 2: I feel like, now that my kids are older, I'm

860
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 2: glad they know that I'm a sexual person because they

861
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 2: have told me about some of the stuff that's going

862
00:48:59,920 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 2: on in their own lives. They don't want to tell

863
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 2: me details. I don't need them to tell me details,

864
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 2: but there have been some things that they've like confronted

865
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 2: that I'm glad that they feel comfortable talking to both

866
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 2: me and to my husband about stuff. And it's not

867
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 2: a completely sanitized, pearl clutching household, and I think that's important.

868
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 2: So ultimately, I think it's it's good to talk to

869
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 2: your kids about what you're doing. It's never easy, no

870
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 2: matter if you're in a monogamous or a non monogamous relationship.

871
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 2: One thing I did feel, though, was like I was

872
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 2: glad by the time my son found out, I was

873
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,439
Speaker 2: in a slightly more stable, balanced place with it where

874
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 2: I was able to talk about it, you know, cogently,

875
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 2: because I've been doing enough therapy to understand kind of

876
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 2: what this was and what this wasn't. And by the

877
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 2: time my youngest felt found out way more comfortable. Well,

878
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 2: so that's important. I don't know that I would have

879
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 2: told them everything I was, you know, it wouldn't be

880
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,760
Speaker 2: appropriate for them to know. No, well, of course everything

881
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 2: I was up to. So what we landed on for

882
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 2: both of them is like that I have a right

883
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: to privacy. Both of them asked me to not tell

884
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 2: them when I was going out on a date. But

885
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 2: at this point, my oldest has met my current main partner,

886
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 2: who I've been dating for over three years, and I

887
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 2: wanted to invite him to my birthday party. My husband

888
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 2: was there too, and my son was home, so I

889
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 2: was like, are you cool with that and would you

890
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 2: like to meet him? He's like, sure, I'll meet him,

891
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 2: and then he introduced me to his girlfriend, and I

892
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 2: had never met her, so he's kind of he's a

893
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 2: much more like keep it to himself kind of guy

894
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 2: my oldest, So it was kind of nice that we

895
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 2: were able to do that, and we're establishing a more

896
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 2: adult relationship now that he's in his early twenties. Yeah,

897
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 2: but he's a grown up, right, He's grown up. And

898
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 2: if you think about it now, it's like, how how

899
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 2: often did you think about what your mother was up

900
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 2: to when you were like nineteen twenty twenty one? Like

901
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 2: not at all? Never?

902
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 1: Literally never. I thought about it more when I was

903
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 1: a kid, I think, ye, honest, exactly.

904
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, So like once that kind of anxious phase was over,

905
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 2: I think it was a little uncomfortable when they were

906
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 2: going through puberty. But it was a little uncomfortable anyway.

907
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, life is uncomfortable. The idea that anyone has sex, ever,

908
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:30,800
Speaker 1: it's disgusting, yeah, and also awesome. So like it's very

909
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: confusing to them.

910
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,839
Speaker 2: Right, And we want a model for daughters that you

911
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,959
Speaker 2: can still be a sexual person when you're a mom.

912
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: We want a model for sons that their mothers are

913
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 2: whole people and they are not carbon cutouts there to

914
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 2: serve you. So I feel like, ultimately, I'm very happy

915
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 2: with all of the messiness that happened. I don't have

916
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 2: regrets about really anything that happened because it's all brought

917
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 2: me to this place and i have strong relationships with

918
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 2: my kids now and I'm happy about.

919
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:07,359
Speaker 1: That, which is great, Which is great. The book takes

920
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 1: place over ten years, and as you said, it ends,

921
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:15,280
Speaker 1: it's twenty eighteen that it ends, right, Yeah, yeah, where

922
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 1: are you? Where is your marriage now? How are how

923
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: are things? I guess is that the best question? How

924
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: are things?

925
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 2: Our marriage is the best it's ever been. And you know,

926
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 2: I'll be honest, the kids. For some people, I think

927
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 2: when the kids leave, the marriage goes through some pressure

928
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 2: because maybe there's no triangulation anymore, or there's no common

929
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 2: focal point. But because we've had our own things going on,

930
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:50,879
Speaker 2: the kids leaving has made it like awesome, So we're

931
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 2: like really enjoying time together and time apart which we

932
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 2: always have. The sex is better with my husband than

933
00:52:58,440 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 2: it's ever been.

934
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,439
Speaker 1: I think, did the sex get better when you opened

935
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:04,240
Speaker 1: up your marriage?

936
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 2: Yes, and not for the reason that everybody assumes. I mean,

937
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 2: in part, I think it's because we were exploring with

938
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,720
Speaker 2: other people and figuring out what we wanted. But also,

939
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 2: I write about this in the book, there are some

940
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 2: facets of my husband's sexuality that do not match with

941
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 2: some facets of my sexuality, and until I started seeing

942
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 2: other people, I couldn't really put my finger on what

943
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 2: that was. But ultimately he is more dominant than I prefer.

944
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,479
Speaker 2: I need him to tone it down with me, and

945
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 2: so I now though, don't feel like I have to

946
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 2: compromise with him. He can take He doesn't need that

947
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 2: all the time, but you can get that elsewhere. So

948
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 2: I don't have to change my boundaries for him, and

949
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 2: he doesn't have to negate this whole part of his

950
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 2: sexuality for me, And I think that's a really beautiful

951
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,280
Speaker 2: thing that we're able to give each other. So because

952
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 2: of that, there's it's just so much less fraught. We

953
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 2: kind of know the kind of sex we like to

954
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 2: have and it's awesome, and it's not the only kind

955
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 2: of sex we like to have, and so we have

956
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 2: that other kind with other people. And so it's just

957
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 2: taken all the pressure off of us in a way

958
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 2: that's actually opened us up. We have been a little

959
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 2: more experimental with each other because they're like, yeah, maybe

960
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 2: we'll try it with the you know, things that I

961
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 2: didn't think I would like with him, but I do

962
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 2: like with other people sometimes does happen stuff like that.

963
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 2: So overall, it's just kind of given a freedom to

964
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 2: our sex life that that has benefited our relationship as

965
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,320
Speaker 2: much as it has our other partnerships.

966
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:56,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I you know, you're talking about it with regards

967
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 1: to sex, but I say all the time, I'm like,

968
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 1: your spouse cannot be your everything. They are not gonna

969
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 1: your soul and your best friend and the person you

970
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 1: played tennis with and the mind blowing sex, right and

971
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 1: so yeah, but there yet another myth that deserves to

972
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 1: be busted. Yeah, is that they should satisfy every single need. Absolutely,

973
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: you're happier when they satisfy the needs that they're good at.

974
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it was so funny. I got interviewed for

975
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 2: the New York Times Food section because they were talking

976
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 2: about marriage and food and I hadn't really thought about

977
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 2: it so much before. But like, I don't cook, or

978
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 2: I don't like to cook. My husband doesn't cook, so

979
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 2: nobody cooks, right. Yeah, my boyfriend is in hospitality and

980
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 2: cooks and used to like but also would make these

981
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 2: like amazing shark uterie plates when we were first dating,

982
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 2: and reminding him of that now because anytime you're with

983
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 2: someone for a while, you get into a lull. But like,

984
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 2: he'll cook for me sometimes, and my husband's girlfriend cooks

985
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 2: for him sometimes, and we both get said in this

986
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 2: way that we weren't previously. Yeah, we both love it

987
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 2: getting cooked for but both of us hate took cook

988
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 2: So it's this way we can just like get something

989
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 2: that we don't get from each other. That's very lovely.

990
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 1: That's very lovely exactly because not everyone can be all

991
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 1: the thing right right, that is all that we have

992
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:20,720
Speaker 1: for today. The Under the Influence podcast explores the many,

993
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 1: many facets of a woman's very complicated life. And if

994
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:28,359
Speaker 1: you enjoyed this episode, please find us wherever you get

995
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 1: your podcasts. It is the Under the Influence podcast. And

996
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:34,840
Speaker 1: as I said before, if you're looking for your next

997
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 1: great summer read my new novel, The Sicilian Inheritance is

998
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 1: available for pre order now and we'll be on bookshelves

999
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 1: on April second. It is fun, it is sexy, and

1000
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 1: it might just be the book of the summer. I'm

1001
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 1: so glad that I got to spend time with you today.

1002
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 1: Getting to be back in your feed was a real treat.

1003
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 1: Thank you guys. Have a wonderful day. Go do something

1004
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: nice for yourselves.

1005
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 2: Looking them talking