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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. So we're

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Speaker 2: going into the vault for an older episode of the show.

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Speaker 2: This time we're going back several years to an episode

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Speaker 2: we did on the Black Mirror episode Bander Snatch. This

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Speaker 2: was before Weird House Cinema. Not a Weird House Cinema episode.

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Speaker 2: We featured it in a We featured it in a

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Speaker 2: core episode and talked about all kinds of things connected

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Speaker 2: to the plot. This sorry, this was not a Weird

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Speaker 2: House Cinema episode. This pre dates Weird House. It was

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Speaker 2: a core episode where we talked about all kinds of

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Speaker 2: things related to the plot. It originally aired January ninth,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: Now why are we talking about it right now? Well,

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Speaker 1: it's my understanding that Netflix is set to remove Bander

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Speaker 1: Snatch from its platform on May twelfth, And unlike most films,

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Speaker 1: you know, when it leaves one platform, or it can

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Speaker 1: just pop up on another, right, some other streaming service

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Speaker 1: can offer it, or it'll come out on physical media maybe,

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Speaker 1: or you know, or if you can find a stream somewhere.

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Speaker 1: But of course the thing about Bandersnatch is that it's interactive.

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Speaker 1: It is a choose your own path experience, and therefore,

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Speaker 1: if it's not, it's one of the it's one of

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Speaker 1: the few of the interactive experiences that they actually did,

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Speaker 1: and once it is off of the Netflix platform, you're

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Speaker 1: not going to be able to experience it in the

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Speaker 1: same way, which I thought was brilliant. I thought it

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Speaker 1: was an amazing interface of not only the technical aspects

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Speaker 1: of it, but just the way that Black Mirror made

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Speaker 1: use of that technology to tell a compelling story about

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Speaker 1: choices and the illusion of choice.

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Speaker 2: Going to be a shame to lose it, but it

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Speaker 2: seems like a fitting end for an episode of Black

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Speaker 2: Mirror to actually just be destroyed by the kind of

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Speaker 2: whims of a technological behemoth.

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Speaker 1: It does, it really does. So Yeah, so you've got

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Speaker 1: you've literally gotten like what a couple of days, maybe

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Speaker 1: even down to hours at this point by the time

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Speaker 1: you're listening to this episode. So jump in there experienced Bandersnatch,

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Speaker 1: or re experience it while you have time and enjoy

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Speaker 1: our thoughts from the year twenty twenty about it.

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Speaker 2: And the Banker Inspired with a courage so new it

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Speaker 2: was a matter for general remark, rushed madly ahead and

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Speaker 2: was lost to their view in his zeal to discover

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Speaker 2: the snark. But while he was seeking with thimbles and care,

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Speaker 2: a bender snatch swiftly drew nigh and grabbed at the banker,

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Speaker 2: who shrieked in despair, for he knew it was useless

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Speaker 2: to fly. He offered large discount. He offered a check

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Speaker 2: drawn two bearer for seven pounds ten.

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Speaker 1: But the bandersnatch merely extended its neck and grabbed at

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Speaker 1: the banker again without rest or pause, while those frumiest

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Speaker 1: jaws went savagely snapping around. He skipped, and he hopped,

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Speaker 1: and he floundered, flopped till fainting he fell to the ground.

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Speaker 1: The Bandersnatch fled as the others appeared, led on by

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Speaker 1: that fear stricken yell, and the bellman remarked, it is

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Speaker 1: just as I feared, and solemnly told on his bell.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, A production of

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Speaker 3: Iheartradios How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick. And Robert are you feeling more

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Speaker 2: frabjess or more frumious today.

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Speaker 1: I guess more frumious frumious would be my answer. That was,

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Speaker 1: of course the poem The Hunting of the Snark by

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Speaker 1: Lewis Carroll, But I guess a number of people are

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Speaker 1: probably more familiar with the Bandersnatch from another poem by

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Speaker 1: Lewis Carroll, that being the jabberwock Jabwacke, Yes, where the

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Speaker 1: Bandersnatch is just alluded to as another monstrous creature that

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Speaker 1: my i'd be running around the woods.

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Speaker 2: I love it when a poet first named something in

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Speaker 2: a kind of in a listical kind of way, you know,

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Speaker 2: poem as listical, and then later it comes through in

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Speaker 2: another poem with more force. I think that sort of

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Speaker 2: happened with the demogorgan, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think so. And in this case, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Bandersnatch. There's not a lot really said about it

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Speaker 1: in the writings of Lewis Carroll. Lewis Carroll, by the way,

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Speaker 1: was the pen name of Charles Lutwich Dodgson, who lived

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Speaker 1: eighteen thirty two through eighteen ninety eight, and he first

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Speaker 1: introduced the bander Snatch again just in a list of

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Speaker 1: creatures that might pop up in his eighteen seventy two

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Speaker 1: novel Through the Looking Glass in that poem the Jabberwackie,

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Speaker 1: and then pops up again in this eighteen seventy four

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Speaker 1: poem that we just read, the Hunting of the Snark,

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Speaker 1: which we didn't.

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Speaker 2: Read the whole of the poem. That was just an

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Speaker 2: exerpt from it. I think where the like who's the banker?

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Speaker 2: The banker is one of these people who goes on

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Speaker 2: a voyage hunting the snark. I've read that that poem

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Speaker 2: has been interpreted by some as metaphorical of you know,

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Speaker 2: that it's supposed to be an allegory about the search

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Speaker 2: for human happiness and contentment. But then also I think

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Speaker 2: i've heard it alleged that the poem actually has no

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Speaker 2: allegorical meaning, that it's just kind of silly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, in that sense, it's kind of enigmatic.

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Speaker 1: And the creature itself is enigmatic, scarcely described, but certainly

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Speaker 1: best avoided at all costs. There's no way to outrun it,

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Speaker 1: no way to escape its intensity. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: frumius is a combination of fuming and furious. Carroll just

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Speaker 1: ran these two words together to make a nice new

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Speaker 1: adjective for a strange monster is.

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Speaker 2: A perfectly cromulent word, very frabjous. And I was wondering,

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Speaker 2: do you need a vorpal sword if you go up

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Speaker 2: against a vander Snatch or is that only for the

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Speaker 2: jabberwock Well.

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Speaker 1: It certainly worked on the Jabberwockie. I don't know about

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Speaker 1: the vander Snatch. There are no tales of slaying it,

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Speaker 1: are there, at least not in Lewis Carroll's original work.

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Speaker 2: Does the vorpal sword show up as an artifact in

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Speaker 2: D and D It does?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it certainly does. Yeah, pretty good sword. Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: very good sword. Now, the name Vandersnatch has been evoked

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Speaker 1: many times over the years and works of fantasy and

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Speaker 1: science fiction. I've seen it pop up as a space

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Speaker 1: slug and other such creatures. Sometimes it's just kind of

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Speaker 1: an enigmatic name for like a government project or something,

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Speaker 1: because it's a great it's a great name. In depictions

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Speaker 1: of Lewis Carroll's work, it is often take on a

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Speaker 1: mammalian character. Nineteenth century children's illustrator Peter Newell depicted it

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Speaker 1: is kind of a furry, horned beast that might resemble

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Speaker 1: a cat or maybe a wolf like creature, and this one,

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Speaker 1: this is a very popular image, and then film adaptations

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Speaker 1: have depicted it as both borlike and cat like. The

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Speaker 1: twenty ten Tim Burton adaptation has a very memorable creature

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Speaker 1: design for the Bandersnatch.

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Speaker 4: Oh, the Tim Burton Alice in Wonderland? Is that what

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Speaker 4: you're talking about?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I have, I've seen the first one.

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Speaker 4: I never ventured that far into late Burton.

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Speaker 1: Well, it had some things going for it. It had

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Speaker 1: had a really good cast, it had some interesting character designs,

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Speaker 1: I'll say that, and a very monstrous looking Bandersnatch. Okay, Now,

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Speaker 1: just a couple of other interesting tidbits about Lewis Carroll.

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Speaker 1: He was a mathematician. He worked in geometry and new

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Speaker 1: ideas in algebra, logic, machines, ciphers. So between this and

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Speaker 1: other details of his life, there's a lot of black

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Speaker 1: mirror to the originator of the Bandersnatch. Also, in Hallucinations,

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Speaker 1: the book by Oliver Sachs, the Late Oliver Sacks, Sax

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Speaker 1: points out that Carroll was known to suffer from classical migraines,

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Speaker 1: and that Caro W. Lippman and others have suggested that

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Speaker 1: his migraine experiences may have contributed to the way he

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Speaker 1: envisioned through the looking Glass and Alice in Wonderland, like

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Speaker 1: the skewing of time and space. Also, you have auditory

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Speaker 1: hallucinations that are not uncommon in migraines, as well as

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Speaker 1: old factory hallucinations. I've also seen descriptions of this lifting feeling,

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Speaker 1: this feeling of being moved through space.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess the extension of the lightheadedness that comes

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Speaker 2: on with the aura and all that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's actually an asteroid named bander Snatch.

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Speaker 1: Oh I didn't know this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I look this up. Nine to seven to eighty

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Speaker 2: Bander Snatch. It's a Main Belt asteroid, so it's out

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Speaker 2: beyond the orbit of Mars. Discovered in nineteen ninety four

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Speaker 2: by Japanese astronomers Takashi Urrata and Yasuhiro Shimizu at the

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Speaker 2: Nachi Katsura Observatory, and it was named, of course after

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Speaker 2: the Frumias Bandersnatch.

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Speaker 1: Awesome. Now, one of the this is just sort of

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Speaker 1: the introductory material on the Bandersnatch, because for the vast

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Speaker 1: majority of this episode we're going to be talking about

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Speaker 1: what as I guess the most recent cinematic invocation of

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Speaker 1: the bandersnatch, and that is the Black Mirror episode. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's not even an episode. It's a Black Mirror film

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Speaker 1: that came out on Netflix December of what was it,

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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, so a little over a year ago, and

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Speaker 1: there's a lot to unpack here.

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Speaker 2: I actually didn't watch it until this week, so I

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Speaker 2: knew you wanted to do an episode about it, and

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Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, I'll finally see what all the

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Speaker 2: fuss is about.

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Speaker 4: I was very impressed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll get I'll certainly get more into my very

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Speaker 1: thoughts on it later. I was impressed with it when

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Speaker 1: it came out, and then since we were going to

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Speaker 1: do the episode, I rewatched it for the first time

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Speaker 1: since its original release earlier this week, and I have

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Speaker 1: to say it, I thought it held up. I even

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Speaker 1: got a different ending and a different dead end at

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Speaker 1: one point than I had encountered previously. So it was like,

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Speaker 1: why every time you watch a film that you like

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Speaker 1: again you find new things, but in this case you

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Speaker 1: can actually get a different ending.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, now we're going to be exploring today some of

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Speaker 2: the science and the ideas and philosophy that are alluded

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Speaker 2: to in Vanderson. But in doing so, of course, this

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Speaker 2: will involve some spoilers for this strange film. So I

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Speaker 2: would say, there are a couple of places we're not

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Speaker 2: going to like go through and explore every possible ending

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Speaker 2: or anything like that. But if you are in the

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Speaker 2: case where you haven't seen it yet and you don't

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Speaker 2: want anything at all spoiled, you should probably stop here

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Speaker 2: and go watch it first before you listen to the

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Speaker 2: rest of the episode. But if you've already seen it,

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Speaker 2: or you haven't seen it, and you don't care about

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Speaker 2: minor spoilers that don't go all the way to all

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Speaker 2: the endings, then you know, forge ahead with us.

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Speaker 1: Please. However, some of you may be asking the question,

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Speaker 1: what are you talking about? What is Black Mirror? So

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Speaker 1: we should probably take a few minutes to just refresh

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Speaker 1: you on what this is. It is a is the

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Speaker 1: word refresh? Would that be the word? We should shock

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Speaker 1: you to the bone? All right? So Black Mirror is

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Speaker 1: in essence a sci fi anthology television series in the

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Speaker 1: same vein as The Twilight Zone, the Outer Limits, these

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Speaker 1: various shows we've discussed in the past.

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Speaker 2: I might call it pretty often techno horror. Not every

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Speaker 2: episode is the same, but there's essentially no horror movie

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Speaker 2: as scary as the scariest episodes of Black Mirror, especially

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Speaker 2: the ones that manage to take fairly plausible technological scenarios

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Speaker 2: and follow them to their logical conclusions. I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: it's a show that's very good at conjuring up the

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Speaker 2: worst possible nightmares of like the intersection of capitalism and technology.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, episodes tend to have a technological swing to

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Speaker 1: the story, and they tend to deal on some level

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Speaker 1: with contemporary anxiety about current technology and emerging technology. What

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Speaker 1: are these technologies doing to our lives? What may they

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Speaker 1: do to our lives in the future, And you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes they take varying specuative leaps there, of course, since

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Speaker 1: it is science fiction. But you, I would say, you

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Speaker 1: typically leave an episode of Black Mirror feeling a little

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Speaker 1: worse about the world. I know that Netflix, their current masters,

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Speaker 1: are very into the whole binge model, but I personally

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Speaker 1: find it very difficult to binge Black Mirror, in part

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Speaker 1: because each episode, of course, is a self contained story

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Speaker 1: with characters and a plot, et cetera. But then also

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Speaker 1: It's like they're often like a punch in the gut,

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Speaker 1: and I just can't just sit there and take one

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Speaker 1: punch after the other.

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Speaker 2: Apart from one very sweet, very nice episode, there's essentially

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Speaker 2: nothing that makes me feel as bad as Black Mirror.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, I was thinking. I was thinking about

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Speaker 1: this because there are definitely some very bleak episode. There

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Speaker 1: are episodes of Black Mirror that I admire that I

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Speaker 1: will never watch again. But then I look back at

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Speaker 1: my some of my favorite episodes. My favorite episodes are

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Speaker 1: probably san Ju Napero, The Uss Callister, and metal Head.

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Speaker 1: Two of those, one of those is still pretty bleak,

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Speaker 1: but two of those are actually pretty upbeat, probably the

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Speaker 1: most upbeat episodes of the show. And maybe that's the

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Speaker 1: reason I would come back to them, because if I'm

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Speaker 1: going to double dip, I want to double dip for

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Speaker 1: optimism's sake. Now, in terms that we can't talk about

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Speaker 1: Black Meir without talking about the creator behind it, the

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Speaker 1: main creative individual behind it, and that is Charlie Brooker,

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Speaker 1: a British writer and humorist who the earliest thing that

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Speaker 1: he worked on that I was familiar with was that

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Speaker 1: he worked on Chris Morris's excellent news satire Brass Eye,

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Speaker 1: and then he also created a pretty great zombie movie

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Speaker 1: titled Dead Set in two thousand and eight, in which

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Speaker 1: the zombie apocalypse breaks out in and around a Big

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Speaker 1: Brother style reality TV production.

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Speaker 2: I feel like two thousand and eight was sort of

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Speaker 2: like maybe two thousand and seven. Two thousand and eight

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Speaker 2: was like peak zombie satire movie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And the thing about this one, though, the premise

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Speaker 1: sounds like a comedy, and so I acquired a copy

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Speaker 1: of it, thinking, oh, this is a comedy, and this

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Speaker 1: is a guy that worked on Brass Eye. This is

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Speaker 1: going to be hilarious. And it is not a straight

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Speaker 1: up comedy. It is a pretty terrifying film. But you

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Speaker 1: see shades of that in Black Mirror. Sometimes there is

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Speaker 1: a premise that could sound like a joke, but then

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Speaker 1: it is taken and considered with such intensity that it works. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: What if like a major tech company used eye tracking

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Speaker 2: software to make sure you were always watching their ads

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Speaker 2: and if you didn't watch them, they would ring sirens

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Speaker 2: in your brain and deduct money from your bank account

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Speaker 2: until you started watching the ads. Again, sounds like a joke,

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Speaker 2: but like if you just said take that seriously for

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Speaker 2: a bit and explore that becomes like a nightmare of

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Speaker 2: technoci fi.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. Now. Black Mirror began in twenty ten two seasons

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Speaker 1: in a holiday special came out and ran on Channel

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Speaker 1: four in the UK. Then Netflix started carrying it, and

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Speaker 1: Netflix became the owner of the main pub We'll share

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Speaker 1: the program however you want to look at it, starting

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Speaker 1: with season three in October of twenty sixteen. All in all,

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Speaker 1: it has thus far gone five seasons twenty one episodes,

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Speaker 1: and that's not counting the film Bandersnatch, which again came

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Speaker 1: out in December of twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 2: These bits of publisher information will actually become relevant later

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Speaker 2: on as we discussed the story.

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Speaker 4: Because the the ideas there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because at the end we definitely get into some

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Speaker 1: citiz scenarios where we have to consider the fact that

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Speaker 1: Netflix is the business daddy behind Black Mirror.

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Speaker 2: So Vandersnatch the film. The Black Mirror film was actually

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Speaker 2: directed by David Slade, who I was like, where do

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Speaker 2: I know that name from? He's done several things, but

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Speaker 2: one of them was he did one of the Twilight movies.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and I've seen that that particular one. It was

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Speaker 1: the second one, I think, and it's that's a I'm

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Speaker 1: not a huge Twilight fan, but that is a very

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Speaker 1: watchable Twilight movie and it has a great soundtrack. It's

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Speaker 1: got Tom York on it. Oh yeah, yeah. He also

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Speaker 1: directed the Black Mirror episode metal Head that I alluded

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Speaker 1: to earlier, and there are some callbacks to metal Head

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Speaker 1: in the Bandersnatch episode.

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Speaker 2: Now, I guess one thing we haven't gotten fully into

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Speaker 2: so far is the fact that the Black Mirror movie

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Speaker 2: Bandersnatch is it's an interactive movie, which makes it very unique.

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Speaker 1: Right. This was the big selling point on it, and

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Speaker 1: indeed is one of the mean it's a key part

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Speaker 1: of the way you consume it, but it is also

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Speaker 1: very important thematically, like you know, true to form, The

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Speaker 1: creators here really thought long and hard about how to

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Speaker 1: utilize an interactive system within the work and make the

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Speaker 1: work comment on that system as well.

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Speaker 2: Right, the interactive system being Netflix, like the fact that

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Speaker 2: the user can make inputs on the movie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, basically, that's what it amounts to is you start

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Speaker 1: off watching it, it seems like a normal Netflix presentation, but

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Speaker 1: then your in my case, my Xbox one controller would

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Speaker 1: suddenly vibrate and then this little the screen at the

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Speaker 1: bottom of the screen. You're suddenly with two choices and

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Speaker 1: a timer, and you have to choose, you know, what

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Speaker 1: is going to happen, what the character is going to do, etc.

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Speaker 1: Now this is you know, when you're just checking out

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Speaker 1: the film, you might not realize how much work goes

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Speaker 1: into this, but it took apparently a huge amount of

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Speaker 1: work to shoot all these various branching paths, because it

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Speaker 1: becomes this tree, this branching system of possibilities when you

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Speaker 1: start presenting the user with these interactive choices. For instance,

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Speaker 1: the previously the longest episode of Black Mirror was an

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Speaker 1: episode called Hated in the Nation, which was eighty nine

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Speaker 1: minutes long. That's future length, right, what ninety minutes is

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Speaker 1: usually the length you shoot for with a shot film. Well,

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Speaker 1: when you're watching Bandersnatch, depending on your choices, the film

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Speaker 1: can run anywhere between ninety minutes and two and a

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Speaker 1: half hours. And in order to make this work, as

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Speaker 1: pointed out by a Jackie Strauss in The Hollywood Reporter,

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Speaker 1: this means they had to shoot like five hours of

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Speaker 1: footage so that they could actually cover all of these

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Speaker 1: various choices. Wow, and you may watch it like, for instance,

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Speaker 1: the first time I watched it, there were plenty of

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Speaker 1: scenes I did not see, and then when I watched

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Speaker 1: it again, there were films, there were scenes that I

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Speaker 1: saw the first time that I did not see, and

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Speaker 1: I got an entirely different ending that I'd never I

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Speaker 1: didn't even know about. And then there are of course

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Speaker 1: various Easter eggs and even I've read quote golden Easter

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Speaker 1: eggs that are spread throughout, things that most viewers will

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Speaker 1: not find unless they spend a great deal of time

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Speaker 1: going through and going back through and backing up, etc.

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Speaker 2: With this interactive piece encouraging unhealthy obsessive behavior.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, I mean it is black mirror. Now, as

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Speaker 1: far as the choices you make in Bandersnatch, you start

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Speaker 1: off making very small choices, it seemed very consequential. For instance,

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Speaker 1: choosing the main character's breakfast series he's presently his father

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Speaker 1: shows two boxes and you decide which one he's going

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Speaker 1: to have for breakfast. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think it was what like frosted flakes or sugar

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Speaker 2: puffs or something. I remember what I realized after I

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Speaker 2: made that choice was I was like, oh no, I

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Speaker 2: think I chose the brand that I was more familiar with.

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Speaker 1: Ah, we'll come back to that later. That is an

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Speaker 1: important point that we'll come back to later on in

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Speaker 1: the episode. But yeah, at first, it's it's what kind

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Speaker 1: of cereal does he want? All right? It doesn't doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem to matter much, and it also gives you a

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Speaker 1: chance to try out the technology low stakes. But and

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Speaker 1: then also later on, you choose what music is going

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Speaker 1: to listen to in when he's on the bus, which

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Speaker 1: is kind of fun. I think you get to choose

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Speaker 1: between a eurhythmic song and something else. I can't remember

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Speaker 1: the other one.

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Speaker 4: I think it's Thompson Twins.

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Speaker 1: That's it. Yeah. And then later on he's in a

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Speaker 1: record store and you get to choose which record he's

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Speaker 1: going to buy. And this is also pretty great because

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Speaker 1: one of the choices is Tangerine Dreams excellent nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: four album Phaedra, which is incredible.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I was listening to that again this morning

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Speaker 2: while I was doing some prep for this episode.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's excellent stuff. However, this time around I forced

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Speaker 1: myself to choose the other album instead, the other album

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Speaker 1: being a Seo Tamita's the Bermuda Triangle, which very strange. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: very strange work, but very good. I was really not

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Speaker 1: that familiar with this artist or this work, which is

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Speaker 1: apparently kind of hard to come by on streaming unless

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Speaker 1: you just find like a YouTube full album rip. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is just a taste of the soundtrack. The Bandersnatch

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Speaker 1: is a wonderful soundtrack, including not only these artists but

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Speaker 1: also deep esch Mode, Laurie Anderson. Great stuff. But let's

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Speaker 1: come back to the choices you make in this interactive system.

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Speaker 1: So again, they start off seeming largely inconsequential. They start

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Speaker 1: off seeming a little bit fun. You know, it's just

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Speaker 1: surface level stuff like what's his breakfast cereal, what's his

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Speaker 1: musical choice? But then they become increasingly high stakes and

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Speaker 1: even nerve racking to decide on. Suddenly, when you're controller

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Speaker 1: vibrates and you're presented with this choice and sometimes dread, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you fill this dread because sometimes the choices neither one

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Speaker 1: is all that great. Sometimes the choices are kind of horrible,

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Speaker 1: and there's at least one point where you have no choice.

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Speaker 1: There's something to select, but there's no alternative selection, and

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Speaker 1: that feels maddening as well. And and you have a

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Speaker 1: time or you have like what I think it's ten

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Speaker 1: seconds to choose something, and if you don't choose, Netflix

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Speaker 1: chooses for you. But Netflix reports ninety four percent of

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Speaker 1: viewers actively made choices when they watched Bandersnatch.

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Speaker 2: Now, in my experience, it wasn't that they chose for

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Speaker 2: you at random. It was that whichever one of the

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Speaker 2: two options was highlighted, and it was like a you know,

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Speaker 2: on off toggle, like you couldn't select neither one. You

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Speaker 2: were just selecting one or the other, and then you

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Speaker 2: could and you could go with it or you could

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Speaker 2: not go with it in whichever one you had highlighted

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Speaker 2: would just proceed. So there's this kind of there's this

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Speaker 2: horrible sense of like helplessness that that poses on you

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Speaker 2: as the viewer.

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Speaker 1: I have not seen it. Sometimes I'll go into a

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Speaker 1: restaurant or a bar and they'll have Netflix on playing

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Speaker 1: some show. I've never seen them showing Bandersnatch. Probably for this.

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Speaker 2: Reason, letting all the bar paytrens vote to decide.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, or just going crazy like why is nobody

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Speaker 1: clicking a button? Why is nobody interacting with this? Don't

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Speaker 1: let don't let that choice go through. So eventually, as

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Speaker 1: you as you interact with Bandersnatch, a warping of time occurs.

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Speaker 1: You find yourself coming back around to pass choices like

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Speaker 1: a wanderer or lost in a maze. And of course,

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Speaker 1: befitting of a maze, there is a sort of minotaur

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Speaker 1: in all of this. There is the bander Snatch.

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Speaker 2: Wait is it the Bandersnatch or is it the Demon Packs?

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Speaker 1: It is the Demon Packs, yeah, but I also it

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Speaker 1: is also the Bandersnatch. Like it's design. Okay, it's design

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Speaker 1: is roughly based on that illustration of the Bandersnatch we

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Speaker 1: talked about. Okay, cool, All right, We're going to take

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Speaker 1: a quick break, but when we come back we will

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00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,679
Speaker 1: get into the themes of bander Snatch and into the

432
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 1: nature of choice and free will. All right, we're back.

433
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 1: So there are a lot of interesting ideas, cool themes,

434
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 1: historical tidbits that are thrown together, well not thrown together,

435
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 1: stitch together, reassembled in Bandersnatch that give it its unique feel.

436
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 1: Here's just a list of some of the things. First

437
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 1: of all, video game design circa nineteen eighty four, because

438
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 1: that is the setting nineteen eighty four.

439
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, it takes place in the eighties with eighties music,

440
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 2: eighties fashion, all that stuff. But they're also programming you know,

441
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 2: old school adventure games for like the Commodore sixty four

442
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 2: and stuff.

443
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. Another huge part of it are Choose your Own

444
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 1: Adventure books which are directly referenced. And then there is

445
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 1: a book within Bandersnatch titled bander Snatch that is this

446
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 1: enormous tone that we're told is essentially a choose your

447
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 1: own adventure type scenario. Do you have any fond memories

448
00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 1: of choose your own adventure books?

449
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 4: I was obsessed with them.

450
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 2: I loved them when I was in elementary school, and

451
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 2: I would love them despite the fact that you know,

452
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 2: you die in most of the endings, like it imposes

453
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 2: a kind of horrible paranoid fatalism on a child. I think,

454
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 2: where you know, oh, this is a book about exploring

455
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 2: the Arctic, but almost no matter what you do, you

456
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 2: get eaten by a polar bear, or you fall beneath

457
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: the ice and you can't get out. I guess my

458
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 2: young brain was drawn to that kind of thing, though,

459
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 2: you know, I had that like morbid obsession with peril

460
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: and danger and death and all that. But also I'm

461
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 2: curious what is so appealing about the choose your own

462
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 2: adventure books, because one thing we should say is that

463
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 2: this is not the first interactive film Bandersnatch, and previous

464
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 2: attempts at interactive films have generally been very unpopular. I

465
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 2: think a lot of times people don't actually enjoy the

466
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 2: experience of choosing the outcome of a film, and I

467
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: think there are reasons for that. I mean, for one thing,

468
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 2: it's just like hard to make a story where like multiple,

469
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 2: like so many different options of how the story could

470
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 2: go would all be equally satisfying. I mean, there's a

471
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 2: reason that an author writes a story a certain.

472
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: Way, right. For instance, one film that we've talked about

473
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: on the show before, William Castle's Mister Sardonicus from nineteen

474
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: sixty one, was presented was marketed as having an interactive

475
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: element in that at the end of this you got

476
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 1: to choose the fate for the villain would it be,

477
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 1: you know, justice or mercy? And the thing is, audiences

478
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,479
Speaker 1: never chose mercy for this horrible villain. Of course, they

479
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 1: always chose justice, and so there were even accusations that

480
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: they never even shot the alternate version, like there was

481
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 1: the idea that it was interactive was just you know,

482
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 1: the pitch was just the marketing, but there was no

483
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: actual interactive element. William Castle, I think, claimed otherwise, saying

484
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: yes they did shoot the sequence. I do not know

485
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,719
Speaker 1: personally if that's true or not, if this footage has

486
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: ever materialized, but what I did did read was that

487
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: generally people point to nineteen sixty seven's Keino automat as

488
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: the first truly interactive film, but even that, I think

489
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: there are only like four choices that could be made,

490
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: and this film was also I think, largely comedic.

491
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I mean I would say there are many

492
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 2: reasons why this format doesn't always work. For some reason,

493
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 2: it worked for me as a kid with to choose

494
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 2: your own adventure books. I loved those. But I mean,

495
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: one problem I think is that it's hard to make

496
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 2: all the narrative branches as good as each other, but

497
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 2: another one is just the like.

498
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, for instance, when you finish it, I don't

499
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: think there was ever a sense where I'm like, Okay,

500
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: that's the ending I got. No, I want the good ending,

501
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 1: or I want the robust ending you go.

502
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 2: Back and do it again. It's more like a video

503
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 2: game or.

504
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: So I don't want the ending where I randomly die,

505
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 1: Like the story of Super Mario is not that he's

506
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: killed by a mutant turtle three minutes into the game,

507
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, that's not an epic tale.

508
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 2: So in some ways, I think the choose your own

509
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 2: adventure books are sometimes better thought of as like a

510
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 2: puzzle to solve than as like a narrative to be experienced.

511
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 2: And another big difference I will say is that one

512
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 2: of the great pleasures of watching a movie or reading

513
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 2: a book, or you know, engaging in any kind of

514
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 2: narrative with an author's storyteller and you as the passive audience,

515
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 2: is a surrendering of responsibility for what is about to

516
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: happen in your own mind. You give up that responsibility

517
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 2: and suddenly you know when when bad things continue to

518
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 2: happen in the story, when characters make disastrous decisions that

519
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 2: unfold and increase the peril and heighten the drama, you're

520
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 2: not responsible for what's happening. You're just witnessing it, and

521
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 2: that witnessing is very fun. It's peaking through a hole

522
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 2: in the wall and what's happening to somebody else. When

523
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 2: they make you make decisions, it introduces this horrible tension

524
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 2: between what you want to see versus what you think

525
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 2: you should do. You know, like that, I think there's

526
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: this ten whenever. A great example would be in Bandersnatch,

527
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 2: I often felt, in a bizarre way, morally compelled to

528
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 2: make the tamer, safer options, where at the same time

529
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,479
Speaker 2: I felt more interested in seeing the more kind of

530
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 2: like dangerous disastrous options play out.

531
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, this was definitely my experience with my first viewing

532
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: a Banterer Snatch is that when the decisions start start

533
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,719
Speaker 1: hitting you, like later on they become like this horrible

534
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 1: choice or this horrible choice and becomes harder to play

535
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: this game. But earlier on there are moments where you're like,

536
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: are you going to do the sensible thing or the

537
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: more rebellious thing, or even the more dangerous thing? And

538
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: I found myself choosing the safer thing. Like minor spoiler here,

539
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: but he is he's offered the choice between producing his

540
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: dream game with this company at their offices, with their support,

541
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: or saying no to them, and so like the responsible

542
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: part of me is like, yes, say yes to this

543
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: is employment this is going to be good for you. Like,

544
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: clearly you're you're stuck in a weird situation at home.

545
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: You need to get out of the house, protagonists, and

546
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: and so that's the way I went. But it's ultimately

547
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: not the best choice, and it kind of dead ends

548
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: if you take that choice.

549
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 2: Well yeah, it almost kind of gives you a little

550
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: slap on the wrist for making that choice, you know.

551
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 2: So so I don't want to spoil anything, but yeah,

552
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 2: there's like a slight shaming of the viewer for choosing

553
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: the safe option.

554
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is very early on, so we're not

555
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: really you know, spoiling anything, I think nature, But yeah,

556
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: I would do that a lot. I would take I

557
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: would make safe choices. And in fact, it ultimately ended

558
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: up reminding me a little bit of the Spacing Guild

559
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: and Doune, who of course used the spices to see

560
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: into the future to figure out how to navigate the

561
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: dangers of space, which is helpful if your navigating the

562
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: dangers of space. But in life and in politics and

563
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: all these other choices, it's this road to stagnation for

564
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: the Spacing Guild because they always make the safe choice.

565
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: And when we look at the narratives that we love generally,

566
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: they're not about people making the safe choice after safe

567
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: choice after safe choice. They're about people flying off the

568
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: handles or making huge mistakes and having to deal with those,

569
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: And so there is I think there's a learning curve

570
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: there with Bandersnatch, And so my second viewing of it,

571
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: I tried to do more of that. I tried to

572
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: make choices that I felt were interesting or more dramatic,

573
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: and that seemed to work really well, and I feel

574
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: like the product rewards you for doing that.

575
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think that tension is definitely there with

576
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 2: the movies, and I wonder if it's more the case

577
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 2: in a movie than in a book, just because a

578
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 2: movie is more sensorily visceral. The fact that you know

579
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 2: that it's actually visually presented to you in video and

580
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 2: audio makes it harder to just pursue, you know, your

581
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: sort of lust for drama and weirdness and whatever it

582
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: is you want to see as opposed to making the

583
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: safer choices. I don't recall feeling compelled to make the

584
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 2: safer choice the same way with Choose your Own Adventure books.

585
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 2: That could just be because of like the lower sensory

586
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,479
Speaker 2: salience of books compared to movies.

587
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, maybe, So I finally finally remember

588
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: the Choose you Own Your Adventure books as well, in

589
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: part because they had them at the library and I

590
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: could check them out. Yeah. But also another series that

591
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: I finally remember, the Lone Wolf series. Were you familiar

592
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: with these? So these there's a series of these. The

593
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: first one was by Joe Deaver and Gary Chalk, and

594
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: this is they're like a Choose your Own Adventure series,

595
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: very much fantasy Dungeons and Dragon style high fantasy, but

596
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: there's more of a role playing element to it. So

597
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: for instance, when you open the book, it has not

598
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: only a map of the adventuring world you're taking a

599
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: part of, but there's also an action chart and a

600
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: combat record because you're going to end up having to

601
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: pencil in your stats as you go through the story,

602
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: picking spell and so forth.

603
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 2: It's more like a one player D and D module.

604
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. It's like imagine it's like a Choose your

605
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: Own Adventure book and a one player a D and

606
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,719
Speaker 1: D module come together into this one little tone. So

607
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: I finally remember those, and I might be misremembering here,

608
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: but I think I did get turned off later on

609
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: when I reached an artificial dead end in one of them,

610
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: like there was something broken and I couldn't go back.

611
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: Oh no, yeah, but again my memory may not be

612
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: perfect on that. If you're at all interested in this format,

613
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: I do highly recommend picking up one of these old,

614
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: fabulous used copies of the Lone Wolf series. And I

615
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: think they've republished them again with new artwork, but I

616
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: don't know. The classic artwork is exactly the kind of

617
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: thing I love.

618
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 2: The Choose your Own Adventure book that I brought in

619
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 2: today for you to look at Robert is called You

620
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: Are a Shark by Edward Packard. It has a kid

621
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 2: turning into a shark. He's like mid animorph sequence, oh man,

622
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: but he also looks like he's slipping sliding as he

623
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 2: turns into a shark.

624
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 4: Is pretty good.

625
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: That's pretty brilliant too, like channeling something that children, especially

626
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: of that time, would have been familiar would have likely done,

627
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: and giving this fantastic spin on it.

628
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 2: But the story is essentially the fingle doppling scene from

629
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 2: Overdrawn at the Memory Bang, where he just gets transformed

630
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 2: into various different animals. Do you know you get turned

631
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: into an elephant or a seagull, or of course a shark.

632
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 2: I think I recall one death where you get turned

633
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 2: into a squid and you're being chased by something, maybe

634
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 2: it is a shark, and you run out of ink

635
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 2: to disguise yourself with and you're doomed.

636
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: All right. Well, coming back to Bandersnatch, we mentioned the

637
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: video game aspect nineteen eighty four Choose your Own Adventure books.

638
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: There are a number of other elements and homages in

639
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: there as well. It deals with mental illness, it deals

640
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: with LSD. There are allusions to Philip K. Dick. There's

641
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: mention of alternate timelines, and of course it spends a

642
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: lot of time contemplating this idea of a free will

643
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:02,959
Speaker 1: and the potential illusion of choice.

644
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

645
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 2: I think that's the main theme of it, is interrogating

646
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 2: the idea of what it means to be in control

647
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 2: of one's own actions.

648
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 1: Yeah. And the basic plot is as follows. A young

649
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: programmer named Stephan Butler is obsessed with a choose your

650
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: own adventure style book titled Bandersnatch that was written by

651
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,919
Speaker 1: the late troubled writer Jerome F. Davies, and he really

652
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: wants to turn this into a computer adventure game, and

653
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: he's begun work on it on his own. So he

654
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: ends up falling in with this video game company called

655
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: Tuckersoft and meets its lead creative, this programmer named Colin Rittman.

656
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: And from there it departs through these varying winding paths,

657
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: reality warping, through madness and sometimes horror, and through all

658
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 1: of it, there's also this feeling that there is a

659
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: minotaur like monster pursuing you, pursuing our protagonist as well.

660
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: And this is the Bandersnatch, but more specifically, it is

661
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: titled Packs. Its name is Packs, and it is we

662
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: are told it is the Thief of Destiny.

663
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a great moment where the game appears to

664
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 2: give you an option to either deny worshiping packs or

665
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: submit to worshiping packs.

666
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 1: Oh yes, this is the game within a game.

667
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:15,439
Speaker 4: It made me want to play the game.

668
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it looked really cool.

669
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 4: So something that.

670
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 2: Made Bandersnatch different from most of the choose your own

671
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 2: adventure books that I remember reading. I'm sure there are

672
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 2: probably exceptions, but in the classic books I remember reading,

673
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,879
Speaker 2: the story is written in the second person. The protagonist

674
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 2: is an unnamed you. You know, you go down the

675
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 2: left hall, you get eaten by a swarm of feral pigs.

676
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 2: You go down the right hall, you get turned into

677
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 2: a bowl of ice cream by magic pirate. You know,

678
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 2: you explore all the different dooms on offer to you,

679
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: but it's you.

680
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. Likewise, in the Lone Wolf books, as I recall you,

681
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: you kind of make choices regarding how this characters put together.

682
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: You have a fair amount of control. It is your character.

683
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 2: But band ver Snatch challenges this formula a little bit

684
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 2: by making the protagonist a third person character with a

685
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 2: name and pre existing individualized circumstances. You've got Stefan right.

686
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 2: But then this is where it starts getting even weirder.

687
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 2: So not only is it this definite third person character

688
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 2: with their own characteristics and not just a second person protagonist,

689
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: there are moments where the options are you choose, not

690
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: what Stefan does. That's how it mostly is. You know

691
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 2: what does Stefan pick? You know what, what does he

692
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 2: listen to? What does he answer to somebody who poses

693
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: a question to him? It then changes and gives you

694
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 2: the option to dictate what happens to him from the

695
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 2: outside The specific example I recall is what messages he

696
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: believes he is receiving on his computer screen. Oh yeah, Now,

697
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 2: of course, if you go with the most straightforward interpretation

698
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 2: of the story, which is that Stefan is experiencing symptoms

699
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 2: of psychosis, in a way, you're still dictating the activity

700
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 2: of his brain. Activities of his brain that he as

701
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: a character does not perceive as coming from himself. They're

702
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 2: hallucinations that he believes to be coming from the outside.

703
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 2: And you know, this makes me wonder about the framing

704
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 2: of how we should think about hallucinations that are generated

705
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: internally by the brain but perceived to come from an

706
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: external source. Are those hallucinations best understood as you or not?

707
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 2: Are there processes within your own brain that are, in

708
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 2: some legitimate sense not you, even though they are your brain,

709
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 2: they're not anybody else.

710
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not really the voice of God. It is

711
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: is it is something coming from inside your brain that

712
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: you are perhaps imagining or interpreting as the voice of God.

713
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: But is you more synonymous with your whole brain and

714
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 2: everything it does, or is you more synonymous with the

715
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 2: part of your brain that you identify as yourself.

716
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 1: That's going to be very key to some interpretations of

717
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: the base theme explored in Bandersnatch right, and they do

718
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:07,439
Speaker 1: explore this theme amazingly. Well, I felt the second time

719
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: I watched it, I found all these additional layers. You know, again,

720
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 1: I'm I'm tempted to make the best choices for a protagonist,

721
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: or at least there's still that inclination that I want

722
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,479
Speaker 1: to do that. And at one point there's this song

723
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: playing with the lyrics doing what's best for Nigel, and

724
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 1: it's all in the stc or I think so. Yes, Okay,

725
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: I was not familiar with that group or that this

726
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: song before, but yeah, it's playing, and the whole scene

727
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,919
Speaker 1: is about like how his father is making choices for him,

728
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 1: or other times it's you know, it's his therapist that

729
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,359
Speaker 1: is giving him advice about how to how to make

730
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 1: choices in his life. And so you have all these

731
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 1: forces that help him make his choices or make choices

732
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: for him. And then that's also what we are doing

733
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: as we interact with the product.

734
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 2: Well, yes, and in a weird way, it kind of

735
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 2: brings you back around to this question of wait a minute,

736
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 2: is he is he a third person narrator or are

737
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,240
Speaker 2: you supposed to identify as him. So when these choices

738
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: are in some cases things coming to him apparently from

739
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 2: the outside, you know, they might be messages he's receiving

740
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 2: from some kind of otherworldly source or hallucinations, are you

741
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 2: still making choices for him or not? And it leads

742
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 2: back into this theme of whether or not you are

743
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 2: really in control of your own actions and what does

744
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 2: it mean to be in control of your own actions?

745
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 1: And in this we come to the subject of free will,

746
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,439
Speaker 1: which is a huge topic that we return to time

747
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: and time again on stuff to blow your mind. And

748
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 1: we're not going to try to encapsulate everything about that here.

749
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: You know, we've talked about in the past, we're talking

750
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: about it today, We're going to talk about it in

751
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: the future. But it suffice to say philosophies vary, scientific

752
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: interpretations vary, and then it drags in additional drags in

753
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: just about everything about the human condition, right, I mean,

754
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: moral responsibility, theological quandaries, etc.

755
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a problem that it is such a huge

756
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 2: topic and that almost all discussions about free will that

757
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,240
Speaker 2: I encounter in the wild are an absolute mess.

758
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:11,879
Speaker 4: This is my personal take.

759
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 2: I noticed, do you ever notice how conversations about free

760
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 2: will almost never seem to clarify anything. They almost never

761
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 2: seem to provide any more focus or clarity than you

762
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 2: had to begin with.

763
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like sometimes it's at times it feels like having

764
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: a conversation with somebody in a swimming pool about whether

765
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 1: water is wet. Yeah, because it does get down to like,

766
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: like it seems wet to me, I am in it.

767
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 1: It seems like free will to me because I am

768
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 1: immersed in it, and it's difficult for me to remove

769
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: myself from the experience that I'm having and all of

770
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 1: and everything in my life that supports everything in the

771
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: culture at large, that supports the idea that I am

772
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 1: making choices and form choices about my life.

773
00:40:58,120 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like some dilemmas having to do

774
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 2: with free will or like they force you to choose

775
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: between two options that.

776
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 4: Are both tautologies or both absurdities.

777
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 2: And any time you encounter a problem like that, I

778
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 2: think there's a pretty good chance that the underlying disease

779
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 2: causing that is poorly defined terms.

780
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, and yeah, to your point, the extreme versions

781
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: of this are to tend to come off as kind

782
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: of loony, Like if someone is just like I am

783
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 1: a completely free moving soul, Like no, you're not dummy.

784
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: You know.

785
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: It's like when we discussed in the Thankfulness episode that

786
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 1: we put out, you know, like everybody's life is shaped

787
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: by these other factors. These are other individuals in their

788
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: life to some extent, and I feel like to argue

789
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: against that is just lunacy. On the other hand, if

790
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 1: someone is saying I am a just a pure automaton,

791
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: I mean, there you can back that argument up with

792
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: some very intriguing arguments, and we'll get into some of those.

793
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,479
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, does that match

794
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: up with your experience of reality?

795
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 2: I totally agree, But I think even talking about it

796
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 2: at that level, that's already like a level up, like

797
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 2: having accepted some terms as unproblematic more than I think

798
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: they should be. So like anyway, I mean, I think

799
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 2: the main problem with free will is people aren't being

800
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 2: clear what they're talking about before they start talking. And

801
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 2: I'm totally guilty of this as well. This is usually

802
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 2: the case when it comes to free will, and this

803
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 2: happens even when we're not aware that we're being unclear,

804
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 2: So we can't do it full justice. In the short segment.

805
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 2: I think we will try to do better than an

806
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 2: absolute mess. So to try to understand what our terms

807
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 2: actually mean.

808
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 4: What is free?

809
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 2: Will A common understanding is I am in control of

810
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,479
Speaker 2: my own actions. And I think most of the time

811
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 2: for most people this feels true, though curiously, of course,

812
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 2: not all of the time and not for all people.

813
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 2: We can come back to that, but I would argue

814
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 2: that it only feels true in a general way, and

815
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 2: it gets stickier and thornier the more you try to

816
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 2: think about it, and the more precisely you try to

817
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 2: define those terms. So, if I'm in control of my

818
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:02,479
Speaker 2: own actions, who is I.

819
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 4: We brought this up a minute ago. Is I my

820
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 4: whole brain?

821
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 2: I mean? Also, I think there's a good case to

822
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 2: be made that other parts of your body gets some

823
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 2: kind of vote in your decision making. So is it

824
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 2: my whole body? Is it everything with my genome? Even then,

825
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 2: I would say your microbiota sort of gets a vote.

826
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 2: I think there are questions about what the eye is.

827
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 2: But then also what counts as control? If I am

828
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 2: in control of my own actions, does it mean that

829
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 2: that I make my decisions with no outside influences? I mean,

830
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 2: that's obviously not true, as you were alluding to a

831
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 2: minute ago. But once you accept that outside factors have

832
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 2: some influence over whatever it is you're talking about controlling,

833
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 2: what's to stop you from assuming that they have total influence?

834
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 2: I mean, what part of your decision making is not

835
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,879
Speaker 2: influenced by pre existing factors like your memory and your

836
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: physical circumstances and so forth, Like what part of you

837
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: can you identify that stands outside of the world. And

838
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 2: then from the other end, paradoxically, if you were to

839
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,919
Speaker 2: suddenly act in a way that made no sense given

840
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 2: your own history and memory and all of the inputs

841
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 2: coming in that you think of as influences on you,

842
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 2: wouldn't that action actually feel less like something that comes

843
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 2: genuinely from you, whatever you are. Wouldn't by this metric,

844
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 2: the most objectively free action seem like something coming from

845
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 2: the outside.

846
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,879
Speaker 1: You mean, like if you go to a restaurant where there's,

847
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: say there's a drink menu, and you always tend to

848
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: order something that is made with a base of say

849
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,919
Speaker 1: rum or bourbon or whiskey, and instead you throw caution

850
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: to the wind one day and you get a mescal

851
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: or a vodka drink.

852
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 2: Uh, does that actually make you feel more free or

853
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 2: does it seem like something you know, something.

854
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:50,959
Speaker 4: Got into you. Where does that phrase come from?

855
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. When I do things like that, I

856
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:55,839
Speaker 1: think it does make me feel more free, because I'm like, no,

857
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna be the same person I've been every

858
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 1: time I'm gonna try I had a different direction. You know,

859
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to I'm going to get a different type

860
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: of drink, I'm going to try a different type of food,

861
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to walk a different way to the train station,

862
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: et cetera.

863
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I would say that this just highlights

864
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 2: that neither branch either acting in character where your character

865
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 2: has been shaped by everything that ever happened to you,

866
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 2: nor a by acting out of character where you know

867
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 2: something got into you. Neither way really cites the origin

868
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 2: of decisions or the origin of actions in something that's

869
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 2: out without outside influence. So a lot of the arguments

870
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 2: about whether we have free will actually seem to me

871
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 2: to reduce to the question of whether we feel we

872
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 2: have free will. But what would it actually mean to

873
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 2: settle the question of whether we are like physically objectively free?

874
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 2: So maybe we should look at like a more thought

875
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 2: out dictionary definition. So one that I found is quote

876
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 2: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate.

877
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 1: Oh or fate. Now that that brings me back to

878
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: this demon Packs, the thief of destiny, I find myself.

879
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: I found myself with the second viewing of Bandersnatch, returning

880
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: to that title and trying to figure out exactly what

881
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: it means. Because destiny, on one hand, means like, you're predestined, right,

882
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: There is a destiny in place for you, and you

883
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 1: perhaps don't have any real control. It is the thing

884
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 1: that the gods have laid out for you. That's like

885
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: one way of looking at But another way of looking

886
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: at destiny is that destiny is the thing you aspire to. Like,

887
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: you choose your own destiny, You choose your own adventure. Right, So,

888
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 1: which of the two is the demon Packs stealing from you?

889
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 1: Is he stealing from you the power to make your

890
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: own decisions? Or is he stealing from you a pre

891
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: destined path? Is he liberating you from this from the

892
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 1: same tired walk to the train station and the same

893
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 1: tired choices on the menu.

894
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 2: Well, the funny thing about it choose your own adventure

895
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 2: is that even though you are making the choices on

896
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 2: each page about which page to turn to next. Somebody

897
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 2: else wrote the whole thing.

898
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 1: That's true, and I mean, to a certain extent, like

899
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: you can. You can apply that to life, like as

900
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 1: rebellious as you might seem, ordering something else on the

901
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 1: menu that you normally don't get, it's still on the menu.

902
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: And other things in life are like that too. Like

903
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: you were large, you are constrained by the possibilities of

904
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: your culture, of your station in life, of you know,

905
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:25,320
Speaker 1: political realities, et cetera.

906
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 2: But even then, is the unpredictability of a behavior at

907
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 2: all evidence of your control or your personal volition.

908
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 4: Of that behavior. I don't know.

909
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 2: I mean those things seem perhaps unrelated to me.

910
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, I mean you can also be predictably unpredictable.

911
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, But anyway, coming back to this definition, the one

912
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 2: that's you know, acting without constraint of necessity or fate.

913
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 4: So I think it can be.

914
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,280
Speaker 2: Hard to pin this down to a concrete claim, but

915
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 2: I think what it comes closest to is saying that

916
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 2: for any given action or moment in my life history,

917
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 2: anything I do or think or say, given the exact

918
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 2: same inputs, I could have produced different output than I

919
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 2: actually did, And this would be I think, some way

920
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 2: of making free will a kind of like a physical proposition. Right,

921
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 2: If exactly the same inputs went into you, everything was

922
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 2: exactly the same, you could have done something different than

923
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 2: what you did. Unfortunately, I think this is just a

924
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 2: completely untestable assumption. R. You know, given the complexity of brains,

925
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 2: you can never have all of exactly the same inputs

926
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:36,720
Speaker 2: that somebody had at a given moment, So you can't

927
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 2: experiment on this to find out what's true.

928
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 1: Though we certainly love ruminating on this in our fiction. Yeah,

929
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: Like any kind of time travel film, any kind of

930
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: Groundhog Day scenario is exploring this subject.

931
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 4: Yeah.

932
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 2: Though, even with most of those time travel things where

933
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 2: people want to go back and relive it, what they

934
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 2: actually are imagining is they want to go back and

935
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 2: relive a moment with the wisdom and knowledge that they

936
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 2: have now that they didn't have then. So it would

937
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,959
Speaker 2: be funny to just like replay the same instance over

938
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 2: and over again with exactly the same physics involved, and

939
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 2: see if anything different happens without having.

940
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 4: Any new knowledge or whatever.

941
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but even then, I mean imagine maybe you

942
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:19,280
Speaker 2: could do that somehow, You know, you could just watch

943
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 2: the same period of time play out over and over

944
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 2: again and see if anything different happens. Even if it

945
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,879
Speaker 2: were true that you could have produced different outputs given

946
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 2: the exact same inputs, would this really mean you were free?

947
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 2: Would this be what people mean when they see free will,

948
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 2: like they're in control of their own actions? You know,

949
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 2: imagine there's some random dice rolling machine inside your head,

950
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 2: or a ghost or a spirit in your brain which

951
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 2: pushes you in different directions even if every single iota

952
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 2: of input is the same. Is that actually freedom? That

953
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 2: just sounds like a different kind of impetus or control.

954
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: That's interesting. You bring up a randomization via some sort

955
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 1: of technology like dice or a casting of bones, because

956
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:03,399
Speaker 1: we've discussed that in the past on the show. How

957
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 1: that is sometimes brought up as being like that, Like

958
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: that's the purpose of these early divination technologies techniques, a

959
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 1: way to randomize choice and to sometimes force us towards

960
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 1: a decision that we otherwise wouldn't make, like in a

961
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 1: way to free us from these predestined paths that are

962
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 1: before us, or at least, you know, lean us over

963
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 1: towards a different path that we would that is available,

964
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,439
Speaker 1: but we normally wouldn't go for Well.

965
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:31,760
Speaker 4: It's funny.

966
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:33,879
Speaker 2: I mean either way you go there. So yeah, say

967
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 2: you're doing the etching or throwing bones. Does either or

968
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 2: not doing that either way is one making you more

969
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 2: the author of your own destiny than another? I'm not sure.

970
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 2: I mean, they have differences in outcomes, right, but does

971
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 2: that actually change what people mean when they say when

972
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 2: they say free will?

973
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:54,720
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, even if you randomize your choices,

974
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: you are the one that will then enact that choice,

975
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,280
Speaker 1: Like you're still the actor in your narrative.

976
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 2: And the randomization is still an input on you.

977
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 4: So I don't know.

978
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,359
Speaker 2: So anyway to sort of sum it all up, I've

979
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 2: got a theory here, and it is that I think

980
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 2: what a lot of us are actually circling around when

981
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,240
Speaker 2: we're trying to figure out how to articulate our concept

982
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 2: of free will is this claim. And the claim is

983
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 2: our consciousness dictates our choices of how we act, or

984
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 2: in other words, we're conscious of the process by which

985
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 2: our choices are made or by which our actions are generated.

986
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 2: Right that when we act, we are able to consciously

987
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 2: be a part of the impetus to act, or consciously

988
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 2: cause the impetus to act. And I think this one

989
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 2: is actually testable, and we can come back to that

990
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 2: in a minute.

991
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 1: So this is, of course, this is one of the

992
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: big riddles of the human experience. And so people have

993
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: been thinking about this and you know, essentially banging their

994
00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 1: head against the wall about this for thousands of years.

995
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: The philosophers Democritus and Lucippus saw the universe as wholly

996
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: governed by natural laws and composed of you know, essentially

997
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 1: indivisible atoms. They took the determinist view of life of

998
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 1: one propelled down a flowing stream of events. Aristotle, on

999
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 1: the other hand, is a great example of someone who

1000
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: stressed the individual's responsibility for their actions. The indeterminists view

1001
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,760
Speaker 1: of life is a boat propelling itself through a body

1002
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 1: of water. So, yeah, to what extent are you just

1003
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: sailing down the river, you know, you know, with no

1004
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: power on where you're going, or are you in a

1005
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 1: boat that in which you have the power to move

1006
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 1: about and even move upstream if you need to. On

1007
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: that note, we're going to take one quick break, but

1008
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 1: when we come back, we will start rolling through some

1009
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,280
Speaker 1: arguments for and against free will, and then we will

1010
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 1: return to bandersnatch. All right, we're back. So let's start

1011
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 1: with some arguments against free will, because ultimately I think

1012
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 1: these are these are often easier to discuss.

1013
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:05,879
Speaker 2: Sure, I would say the most basic one, right is

1014
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 2: just the science of physics, Right.

1015
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 4: Physics is very predictable.

1016
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 2: You can, you know, given given the inputs of forces

1017
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 2: and energy and all that, you can determine what's going

1018
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 2: to happen as an output of that action. And if

1019
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 2: we assume that applies to everything, then why doesn't it

1020
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 2: apply to us?

1021
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 4: Right?

1022
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:28,359
Speaker 1: And it basically comes back to Democritus and Lucipus, right,

1023
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,359
Speaker 1: the idea that their natural laws and they that are

1024
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: in place, and we are not above those laws.

1025
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 4: Sure.

1026
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we're acting on the inputs that come in

1027
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:41,399
Speaker 2: and you know that be being pushed in one way

1028
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 2: or another by our life history and our brains and

1029
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 2: all that we're going to act a certain way as

1030
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 2: physically reactive objects. Now this is an argument, of course,

1031
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 2: it's the most common argument I think against free will.

1032
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 2: But one question is our free will and causal determinism

1033
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 2: really incompatible? Not that it settles the issue but I

1034
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:04,800
Speaker 2: think the majority of philosophers who look at this issue

1035
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 2: pretty closely actually end up becoming what are called compatibilists.

1036
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 2: They accept causal determinism, they say, yeah, you know, we're

1037
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 2: physical objects being pushed around by physical forces, but they

1038
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 2: define free will in some way that it is compatible

1039
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 2: with that. That you are a physical object being pushed

1040
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 2: around by physical forces, and the whole history of your

1041
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 2: life and everything, and yet somehow free will still applies

1042
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 2: to you. This often comes down to like an understanding

1043
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 2: or feeling of free will, like I was talking about earlier, like,

1044
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:37,800
Speaker 2: even if your actions are causally determined, somehow you feel

1045
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 2: like you have agency, and that's what we mean by free.

1046
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:45,320
Speaker 1: Will, right right. Another take on this that I came across,

1047
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 1: and this goes back to something we were talking about earlier,

1048
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 1: contemporary British analytic philosopher Galen Straws, and their argument is

1049
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:56,280
Speaker 1: that that basically free will is impossible because we act

1050
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 1: the way we are right in this argument, This argument

1051
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 1: always makes me think of Yates in the poem No

1052
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: Second Troy. There's that line what could she have done?

1053
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:10,240
Speaker 1: Being what she is? And I think about that with myself,

1054
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,399
Speaker 1: like what when I look back on past choices, what

1055
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 1: else could I have done being who I am? You know,

1056
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,320
Speaker 1: without the you know, some sort of sci fi foresight

1057
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 1: brought on by time travel or groundhog day shenanigans, Like

1058
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 1: I am who I am? I am influenced by all

1059
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:29,399
Speaker 1: these these things in my life, and my mind is this,

1060
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,320
Speaker 1: and then what other choice would that mind have made?

1061
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:32,799
Speaker 4: Right?

1062
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 2: I mean, this is That's a very good way of

1063
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 2: putting it. It almost like it maybe emphasizes the fact

1064
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 2: that free will is a difficult concept because of some

1065
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 2: of the baggage brought by the word free. Yeah, to

1066
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 2: act in accordance with your nature and your circumstances is

1067
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 2: not necessarily not.

1068
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 1: Free, right, Like it was in my nature to responsibly

1069
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: come to work this morning, and so therefore I did.

1070
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,439
Speaker 1: Could I have decided not to come into work? Could

1071
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 1: I have gone to the local at an arcade or something,

1072
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 1: or whatever whatever one does when one skips quirk, I

1073
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: guess I could have.

1074
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 4: In theory, there's nothing stopping you.

1075
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, nothing at all, except that is not my nature,

1076
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 1: and that is not what I did. Because of my.

1077
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 2: Nature, given the circumstances of who you are and who

1078
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 2: you were, this morning and what was going on this morning.

1079
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 2: You didn't do it, and that's all we know is

1080
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:25,839
Speaker 2: that you know you acted the way you were at

1081
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 2: that time because that's who you were at that time.

1082
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now that being said, yes, events could have been different.

1083
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: We could have had an email from our boss saying

1084
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 1: that there was going to be like a rock concert

1085
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:41,240
Speaker 1: in the in the office today. That would never happen,

1086
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:44,319
Speaker 1: and it might make me think, well, maybe I don't

1087
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: want to come into work today, and maybe the easiest

1088
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:50,560
Speaker 1: thing to do would be just to skip. I don't know. Again,

1089
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 1: you can tease your brain all day thinking about what

1090
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 1: if and how this would have this little detail where

1091
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 1: this other detail would affected your choices, but ultimately we

1092
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 1: only have the version of the path behind us to

1093
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:05,359
Speaker 1: look back on when we think about all of this. Now,

1094
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 1: two other basic arguments against free will. This is when

1095
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 1: I think we'll come back to Experimentation has pointed to

1096
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 1: breakdowns between what feels like the moment of choice and

1097
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 1: what physically signals a choice being made.

1098
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this very much complicates the idea that Again,

1099
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 2: what I think people are actually really getting at with

1100
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 2: their idea of free will is that they have conscious

1101
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 2: control over their actions and thoughts.

1102
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 1: And another one, and this is again we've been touching

1103
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 1: on this the whole episode, but myriad causal influences at

1104
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 1: least guide our decisions, if not make them for us.

1105
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, hard to deny.

1106
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: All right, So here are some arguments for free will.

1107
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: The big one, of course, is that subjectively, we tend

1108
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 1: to feel like we have rational, reflective control over our

1109
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 1: choices and actions.

1110
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 2: Sure, I mean, I can decide to do anything that

1111
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 2: occurs to me to do right now. You know, I

1112
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 2: could throw my computer across the room if I really

1113
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:00,080
Speaker 2: wanted to.

1114
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. And and the idea, the way that that our

1115
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 1: brains enable us to simulate these possibilities really I think

1116
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 1: allows us to lean into that interpretation because it's like

1117
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 1: the Choose your own adventure book. The other choices are

1118
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: in there, and if we want to, we can cheat,

1119
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 1: and we can check one out and then back up.

1120
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: And in a way, you know, we can't do that

1121
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 1: in real life except through our ability to simulate possible futures.

1122
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 1: And and of course that has an important evolutionary role,

1123
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 1: It has important role for our survival. We can think

1124
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: about the different ways we might try to say, steal

1125
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 1: a piece of meat from a hungry lion and escape

1126
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 1: with food and our lives, and then choose the best

1127
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 1: course of action. This is this is important, but it

1128
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:48,440
Speaker 1: can also lean into these interpretations that you know that

1129
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 1: certainly you know I have more choice than I actually have,

1130
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 1: or even ultimately an idea that of course is explored

1131
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 1: in Bandersnatch, the idea that these other alternate choices are

1132
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 1: kind of alternate timeline. It's that they're out there like

1133
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 1: I saw it in my head to a certain extent,

1134
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: that reality where I tried to take more meat than

1135
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 1: was feasible and was killed by the lion in a

1136
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 1: way that exists because I just saw it.

1137
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I would say about this argument, it does often

1138
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 2: feel that way that you know, like I could have

1139
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 2: done anything a minute ago, but you didn't. You did

1140
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 2: what you did. So again, this comes back to the

1141
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 2: untestability of this one, like there's just never any way

1142
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 2: to prove that you could have done differently than you

1143
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 2: did in the moment.

1144
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: Like if you ever had a like a close call

1145
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 1: where say you're almost in a wreck or you almost

1146
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 1: do something that could have conceivably gotten you killed, and

1147
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 1: then you have that moment of reflection granted. On one level,

1148
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 1: like it may get you just bodily you're excited, right

1149
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 1: because this has happened and your body's on high alert.

1150
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, part of it is sort

1151
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:57,440
Speaker 1: of realizing your close proximity to this other possibility, like

1152
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 1: I was just some minor choice, some mine, or a

1153
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 1: bit of input data away from something more catastrophic.

1154
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 2: Yes, it makes you suddenly you come face to face

1155
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 2: with how dependent you are on moment to moment circumstances

1156
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 2: and awareness. Though I would say a lot of times

1157
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 2: when I get that like that, like oh, you know,

1158
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 2: catch your breath about what could have happened. It wasn't

1159
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 2: because I narrowly avoided something really bad happening. It's because

1160
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 2: I suddenly, out of nowhere, imagined something really bad happening.

1161
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 2: Like you're going down a flight of stairs and it's

1162
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:32,120
Speaker 2: going fine, but you just imagine, ooh I could fall

1163
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 2: and hit my teeth on that thing, and.

1164
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah, I do that. This is of course,

1165
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 1: this is one of my pitfalls, is to almost constantly,

1166
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:45,880
Speaker 1: essentially fantasize about bad things that could happen. And I

1167
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: think a lot of us do that you know, and

1168
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 1: part of that is your mind is exploring possibilities, sure

1169
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 1: of what is happening or could happen or has happened.

1170
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:57,240
Speaker 1: But in doing that we can lean into the negative

1171
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 1: possibilities too much, and then our lives become this abysmal

1172
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 1: choose your own adventure book of mostly terrible ends, even

1173
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 1: though the path that you're actually on may not be

1174
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 1: leading to any of them.

1175
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 2: It seems like the curse of all this confusion about

1176
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 2: whether we have free will or not and what that

1177
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 2: actually means, could just be rooted in the fact that

1178
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 2: we can consider hypothetical alternative scenarios. The fact that we're

1179
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:28,240
Speaker 2: able to imagine counterfactuals is what makes is what gives

1180
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 2: rise to this whole argument.

1181
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 1: So another thing I have in the list here, and

1182
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 1: this basically is just an extrapolation of everything we're talking

1183
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 1: about right now, is Philosophers Stephen Cave and also Bruce

1184
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 1: Waller have both argued that animals evolved with the capabilities

1185
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 1: we tend to associate with free will in order to survive,

1186
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 1: such as opinion generation, deliberation, will, power to stick to

1187
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,920
Speaker 1: a choice, and the large human brain has all of

1188
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 1: this in Spades. Cave argues that the level of free

1189
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:03,080
Speaker 1: will that we have may actually vary from individual to individual,

1190
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 1: and he argues that we could potentially even put together

1191
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:09,720
Speaker 1: a method of measuring one's freedom quotient or FQ in

1192
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 1: the same way that we will roughly measure one's intelligence, creativity,

1193
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:16,360
Speaker 1: and other psychological factors.

1194
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 2: I do think that's possible, but I also think that

1195
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:20,479
Speaker 2: that would be subject to a lot of debate about

1196
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 2: exactly what.

1197
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 4: It is you're measuring.

1198
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:25,920
Speaker 2: There as a lot of these actual you know, human

1199
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 2: or animal quotients are I mean, when you measure human intelligence,

1200
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 2: there's debate about what exactly are you measuring, And I

1201
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 2: think the same thing would be true of freedom subject

1202
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 2: to all of these you know, crazy caveats we've been

1203
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:38,040
Speaker 2: talking about so far.

1204
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 4: What do you mean when you say freedom?

1205
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. Another take on this that I had read in

1206
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 1: the past was something that neuroscientists David Eagleman called the

1207
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:50,440
Speaker 1: principle of sufficient automatism. And the idea here is that

1208
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 1: the more that we map the human genome and study

1209
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 1: the brains many subconscious machinations, the more it becomes clear

1210
01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 1: that a free will exist. It's only a hitching a

1211
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 1: ride on top of enormous automated machinery. So again it

1212
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 1: comes there's plenty of ground in between automaton and self

1213
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:15,200
Speaker 1: moving soul where you can sort of move the slider

1214
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 1: towards one direction or the other and still have something

1215
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 1: that we can at least refer to as free will.

1216
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 4: But it might only be a very very little bit

1217
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 4: of something.

1218
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:26,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it might, And it's interesting to sort of do that,

1219
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:29,560
Speaker 1: to do a little self reflection and think about that, Like, yes,

1220
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 1: I had choice in the Senate situation, but really, how

1221
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 1: much choice was there?

1222
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think for me at least some of

1223
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 2: the definition problems would still remain, Like, I'm not sure

1224
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 2: that even then that's clarifying what the concept of freedom means. There,

1225
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 2: So we can't test whether it's possible for a person

1226
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:53,200
Speaker 2: to produce different outputs given the exact same inputs. That

1227
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:56,880
Speaker 2: just seems beyond the bounds of empiricism. You could believe

1228
01:03:56,920 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 2: that if you want, but I don't think there's any

1229
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 2: evidence for it. But this might not be what we

1230
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 2: really mean by free will. Maybe, as I mentioned earlier,

1231
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:07,440
Speaker 2: what we mean by free will is that we are

1232
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:11,320
Speaker 2: conscious of the process by which we make decisions or

1233
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 2: generate actions. And I think the empirical research is pretty

1234
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:18,280
Speaker 2: clear that this is not true, at least not in

1235
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:21,560
Speaker 2: many cases. So just to look at a few studies

1236
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 2: undercutting traditional notions that our consciousness dictates our decisions or

1237
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:29,400
Speaker 2: that we're consciously aware of how all our decisions are reached.

1238
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 2: So first of all, I want to look at one

1239
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:36,960
Speaker 2: by us soon Brass, Hinds and Haynes, published in Nature

1240
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 2: Neuroscience in two thousand and eight, called unconscious determinants of

1241
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:43,360
Speaker 2: free decisions in the human brain. In this study, the

1242
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 2: authors found that they could use brain scanning to detect

1243
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 2: a person's choice between two options before the person believed

1244
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 2: that they had made a choice. So you've got a

1245
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:58,360
Speaker 2: very simple setup. You're supposed to freely choose between pressing

1246
01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 2: two buttons. You got a left button I pressed with

1247
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 2: your left hand. You got to right button pressed with

1248
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:06,160
Speaker 2: your right hand. The two different hands were used because

1249
01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 2: this made it easier to see which hand was about

1250
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:11,560
Speaker 2: to be engaged through motor control and brain imaging. And

1251
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 2: so you take your time, you decide which button you

1252
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:17,520
Speaker 2: want to press, and then you note which letter in

1253
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 2: a timed sequence is displayed on a screen in front

1254
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:22,880
Speaker 2: of you at the moment you believe you've made your

1255
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 2: decision about which button to push, and in some cases,

1256
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 2: the researchers could detect brain activity of the prefrontal and

1257
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:33,920
Speaker 2: parietal cortex indicating which choice a person was going to

1258
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 2: make up to seven to ten seconds before the person

1259
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:42,120
Speaker 2: believed they had made their choice. So this study indicates

1260
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 2: that at least in some cases, at the moment you

1261
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 2: believe that you have consciously made a choice to do something,

1262
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 2: machines can look at your brain and show that the

1263
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 2: brain has made a choice before you believe you have

1264
01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:58,880
Speaker 2: made a choice and predict with better than chance accuracy

1265
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:00,000
Speaker 2: what that choice is.

1266
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:04,200
Speaker 1: This is a study that really intrigued me. I remember

1267
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 1: when it came out because it's basically this idea where

1268
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:09,800
Speaker 1: I think that I'm the lightning, but perhaps I am

1269
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 1: the thunder, or at least my experience is that of

1270
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:15,760
Speaker 1: the thunder. But then the other question is, well, does

1271
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,080
Speaker 1: that mean I'm not the lightning? Am I not? Both?

1272
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 1: And maybe just like I have a thunder level awareness

1273
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:24,000
Speaker 1: of what I am, but there is this lightning that

1274
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:25,840
Speaker 1: precedes this experience of me.

1275
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:28,800
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I don't know, I mean the decision

1276
01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 2: is generated by the brain. So again you're back to

1277
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:34,480
Speaker 2: this question of what free will means. But if it

1278
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:37,800
Speaker 2: does have something to do with consciously being a participant

1279
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 2: at the moment that a decision is made, there's pretty

1280
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 2: good evidence that that's not going on. The brain is

1281
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 2: making decisions before the person thinks I have made a decision.

1282
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:51,440
Speaker 2: But okay, that was two thousand and eight. Is there

1283
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:55,240
Speaker 2: anything since then? Sure? Here's one study with findings along

1284
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:58,400
Speaker 2: these lines but applied to voluntary mental imagery who is

1285
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:00,959
Speaker 2: published just last year in twenty nineteen in the open

1286
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:05,920
Speaker 2: access journal Scientific Reports. It's by Kenning, Robert and Pearson

1287
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 2: in I said Scientific Reports called Decoding the Contents and

1288
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 2: Strength of Imagery before Volitional Engagement. And again this was

1289
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:17,600
Speaker 2: published in twenty nineteen. The short version here is that

1290
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:20,720
Speaker 2: the researchers exposed people to two different images. You got

1291
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:24,200
Speaker 2: a red circle with horizontal lines and a green circle

1292
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:27,280
Speaker 2: with vertical lines. And then the researchers were able to

1293
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:31,320
Speaker 2: correlate images of brain states with mental representation of the

1294
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:33,800
Speaker 2: different pictures, so they know it's what it looks like

1295
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 2: in your brain when you're thinking about these two images separately.

1296
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 2: They could use this brain imaging to predict, again above chance,

1297
01:07:41,640 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 2: which image subjects would choose to visualize in their head

1298
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 2: before the subjects believed they had made a choice about

1299
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:52,479
Speaker 2: which one to imagine in their head, and they could

1300
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:54,880
Speaker 2: make these predictions at a rate above chance an average

1301
01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:59,360
Speaker 2: of eleven seconds before the person's actual choice about which

1302
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:02,000
Speaker 2: one they were going to imagine. So, one of the authors,

1303
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:04,840
Speaker 2: Joel Pearson, was quoted in a statement I believe to

1304
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:08,200
Speaker 2: a medical express quote. We believe that when we are

1305
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 2: faced with the choice between two or more options of

1306
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 2: what to think about, non conscious traces of the thoughts

1307
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 2: are there already, a bit like unconscious hallucinations.

1308
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:20,839
Speaker 4: That comes back to something we talked about recently.

1309
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:24,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, As the decision of what to think about is made,

1310
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 2: executive areas of the brain choose the thought trace which

1311
01:08:28,400 --> 01:08:31,639
Speaker 2: is stronger. In other words, if any pre existing brain

1312
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:34,960
Speaker 2: activity matches one of your choices, then your brain will

1313
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:37,439
Speaker 2: be more likely to pick that option as it gets

1314
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:41,280
Speaker 2: boosted by the pre existing brain activity. This would explain,

1315
01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:44,559
Speaker 2: for example, why thinking over and over about something leads

1316
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:46,920
Speaker 2: to ever more thoughts about it as it occurs in

1317
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 2: a positive feedback loop, and then to quote from the

1318
01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:53,320
Speaker 2: study abstract, the authors say, our results suggest that the

1319
01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:57,400
Speaker 2: contents and strength of mental imagery are influenced by sensory

1320
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 2: like neural representations that emerge spontaneously before volition. So there

1321
01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:05,280
Speaker 2: are things going on within the brain that we can

1322
01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:09,400
Speaker 2: detect with machinery from the outside that suggest what you're

1323
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:12,599
Speaker 2: going to think about before you think about it now.

1324
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:14,679
Speaker 2: I think we should be fair that it's possible. This

1325
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 2: isn't always the case, but there's plenty of evidence that,

1326
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:20,799
Speaker 2: at least in some of the at least in some cases,

1327
01:09:21,280 --> 01:09:25,360
Speaker 2: when people think they're consciously making a choice, the brain

1328
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:28,800
Speaker 2: in a measurable way has already made a choice that

1329
01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:32,120
Speaker 2: can be detected from the outside. The brain has already

1330
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 2: set one course of action in motion before the conscious

1331
01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:38,680
Speaker 2: part of our brain is aware that we're going to

1332
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:39,759
Speaker 2: choose that course.

1333
01:09:40,320 --> 01:09:43,880
Speaker 1: So again, kind of a thunder and lightning scenario right now.

1334
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:46,080
Speaker 2: Of course, this stuff we've been talking about is true

1335
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 2: of typical human brains. Once you start looking at atypical

1336
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:52,360
Speaker 2: neurological situations, you can find all kinds of evidence of

1337
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:56,200
Speaker 2: action without the sensation of conscious awareness or choice. A

1338
01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:57,559
Speaker 2: lot of these are things that have come up on

1339
01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 2: the show before, like blind sight, the fact that people

1340
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 2: can physically react to visual stimuli while believing consciously that

1341
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:08,240
Speaker 2: they are blind, or that they're blind in some part

1342
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:11,639
Speaker 2: of their visual field, like you can react to raise

1343
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:14,120
Speaker 2: your hand to catch a ball without believing that you

1344
01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 2: have seen the ball, or you got alien limb syndrome,

1345
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:20,439
Speaker 2: where something like a brain lesion can cause part of

1346
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:22,200
Speaker 2: the body to act in a way that you do

1347
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:25,439
Speaker 2: not feel in control of. The hand moves on its own,

1348
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:28,120
Speaker 2: it moves against your will, It picks up the spoon

1349
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:31,439
Speaker 2: when you meant to pick up the fork. Of course,

1350
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:34,639
Speaker 2: the experiences of split brain patients, which we did a

1351
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:38,200
Speaker 2: deep dive on in January of twenty nineteen. The short

1352
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:41,120
Speaker 2: version is that some patients who undergo a surgery called

1353
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:44,600
Speaker 2: a corpus calisotomy, in which the main avenue of information

1354
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:47,200
Speaker 2: sharing between the two hemispheres of the brain is severed,

1355
01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:51,120
Speaker 2: can seem to show signs of the right hemisphere acting

1356
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:54,920
Speaker 2: and making choices without the conscious awareness or control of

1357
01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:57,439
Speaker 2: the left hemisphere, which seems to be the part of

1358
01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:00,840
Speaker 2: the brain that can usually talk. And example led to

1359
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:06,040
Speaker 2: hypotheses like Michael Gazaniga and Joseph Ledu's left brain interpreter model,

1360
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:09,000
Speaker 2: where they argue that part of what the left hemisphere

1361
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:12,280
Speaker 2: of the brain does is generate an ongoing series of

1362
01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:17,120
Speaker 2: narrative explanations that reconcile past and present and give us

1363
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:20,680
Speaker 2: the sense of that we understand why we do what

1364
01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:23,440
Speaker 2: we do now. Of course, their model could be incorrect,

1365
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 2: but I think it's also possible that they're really onto

1366
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:29,080
Speaker 2: something that the brain seems to have a major function

1367
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:34,280
Speaker 2: of trying to convince itself that its behavior is coherent

1368
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:38,680
Speaker 2: and has rational justifications, and if possible, to convince the

1369
01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:41,840
Speaker 2: conscious part of the brain that it's in control. I

1370
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:44,080
Speaker 2: think this is kind of like at work when you

1371
01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:46,760
Speaker 2: give the boss three options. You know, it's like, here

1372
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:48,599
Speaker 2: are the three things we came up with, and you've

1373
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,479
Speaker 2: got the one you actually want to go with, and

1374
01:11:51,560 --> 01:11:54,600
Speaker 2: then you've got two like terrible options that are designed

1375
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:57,599
Speaker 2: in order to be ignored and discarded by the boss

1376
01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:00,440
Speaker 2: and flatter the boss and give them a sense of control.

1377
01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:02,360
Speaker 1: Right, which can be a dangerous exercise.

1378
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:05,800
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I'm not advising that as a good strategy. I'm

1379
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:08,320
Speaker 2: just saying people do it to look quickly at one

1380
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:08,800
Speaker 2: more study.

1381
01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:09,160
Speaker 4: I found.

1382
01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:15,559
Speaker 2: This was published in twenty eighteen in PNAS by Darby, Jautza, Burke,

1383
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:20,559
Speaker 2: and Fox called lesion network localization of free will. Very briefly,

1384
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:25,840
Speaker 2: the authors here define the neurologically relevant parts of free

1385
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:28,599
Speaker 2: will as having two parts. So first of all, there's

1386
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:32,400
Speaker 2: the desire to act, that's volition. You got volitional control,

1387
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 2: and then a sense of responsibility for that action, which

1388
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:39,280
Speaker 2: is the feeling of agencies. So you got volition and agency.

1389
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:42,439
Speaker 2: And then they looked at two neurological conditions, one that

1390
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:45,840
Speaker 2: is believed to disrupt each of these functions. They looked

1391
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:49,720
Speaker 2: at focal brain lesions that disrupt a volition causing a

1392
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:53,479
Speaker 2: kinetic mutism. And a kinetic mutism is a condition where

1393
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:57,120
Speaker 2: patients are unable to voluntarily move or speak. This would

1394
01:12:57,120 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 2: of course be a disruption of the volition part of

1395
01:12:59,400 --> 01:13:02,720
Speaker 2: the brain. And then lesions that disrupt agency, and this

1396
01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:06,679
Speaker 2: would of course cause alien Limb syndrome. Again, alien limb syndrome,

1397
01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:09,040
Speaker 2: that's where you've got part of your body acting or

1398
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:11,280
Speaker 2: moving in a way that does not feel voluntary.

1399
01:13:11,320 --> 01:13:13,720
Speaker 4: It moves, but you don't feel like you did it.

1400
01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:17,320
Speaker 2: And then they basically found that brain lesions that disrupt

1401
01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 2: volition occur all over the brain, but they're within a

1402
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:22,800
Speaker 2: brain network that is connected in some way to the

1403
01:13:22,840 --> 01:13:26,799
Speaker 2: anterior cingulate cortex. And they found that lesions that disrupt

1404
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:30,200
Speaker 2: agency also occur in different locations around the brain, but

1405
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:32,920
Speaker 2: they tend to be defined by connectivity to a part

1406
01:13:32,920 --> 01:13:35,840
Speaker 2: of the brain called the precuneus. Now, again I would

1407
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 2: note that this this acknowledges physical evidence that there are

1408
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:44,479
Speaker 2: distinct brain processes involved in generating action, you know, volition

1409
01:13:44,960 --> 01:13:49,519
Speaker 2: versus recognizing personal agency in that action, and typical brains

1410
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:52,880
Speaker 2: executing typical actions have both of these acting in sync.

1411
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:55,639
Speaker 2: But brains can have either one without the other.

1412
01:13:56,040 --> 01:13:58,120
Speaker 1: Now, obviously we could keep going here. We could keep

1413
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:02,439
Speaker 1: discussing free will and what feels like free will and

1414
01:14:02,439 --> 01:14:07,400
Speaker 1: how it matches up with neuroscientific data, etc. But at

1415
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:09,120
Speaker 1: this point the podcast, we probably do need to bring

1416
01:14:09,120 --> 01:14:12,639
Speaker 1: it back around to Bandersnatch and the question like, Okay,

1417
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:14,720
Speaker 1: given all this stuff that we've talked about, what does

1418
01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:17,920
Speaker 1: Bandersnatch seem to be saying about all of this? Well,

1419
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:21,400
Speaker 1: it does seem to be largely a rumination on the

1420
01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:23,760
Speaker 1: idea that we do not seem to have as much

1421
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:28,040
Speaker 1: free will as we think we do that we can resist,

1422
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:31,280
Speaker 1: but it takes considerable effort to run counter to the

1423
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:32,960
Speaker 1: current that we're stuck in.

1424
01:14:33,240 --> 01:14:35,439
Speaker 2: I would say a thing that is a theme that

1425
01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:38,080
Speaker 2: is hammered home about free will, and it is the

1426
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:40,840
Speaker 2: more we look at the concept of free will and

1427
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:43,600
Speaker 2: think about whether we have control over our actions, the

1428
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:44,960
Speaker 2: less we feel we have it.

1429
01:14:45,280 --> 01:14:47,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I was thinking, I'm trying to list, like

1430
01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:53,240
Speaker 1: all the various factors and agents that are influencing Stephan

1431
01:14:53,439 --> 01:14:57,000
Speaker 1: in the story. I mean, we have his mental health,

1432
01:14:57,080 --> 01:15:02,000
Speaker 1: his past trauma, his father, his therapy, the work and

1433
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:06,000
Speaker 1: tragic life, the influence of Jerome F. Davies, his boss

1434
01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:11,000
Speaker 1: at Tuckersoft, his mentor slash hero slash friend Colin Rittman,

1435
01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:15,160
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories, music media, et cetera. And that's not even

1436
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:17,760
Speaker 1: getting into the speculative elopment that there is either an

1437
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:22,080
Speaker 1: actual demon entity that is the literal thief of destiny,

1438
01:15:22,800 --> 01:15:26,000
Speaker 1: or that a power beyond himself is influencing his decisions,

1439
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:28,880
Speaker 1: some sort of voice from beyond or the machinations of

1440
01:15:28,880 --> 01:15:30,439
Speaker 1: a player in another world.

1441
01:15:30,760 --> 01:15:34,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, the story really brings home this paradox, which is

1442
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:37,840
Speaker 2: that I think it is the case that the closer

1443
01:15:37,920 --> 01:15:41,840
Speaker 2: we look at free will, and the more we bring

1444
01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:47,680
Speaker 2: our sharpest scientific tools and philosophical instruments to understand it,

1445
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:50,280
Speaker 2: the less it seems to make sense, and the less

1446
01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:52,800
Speaker 2: it seems to be there. And yet at the same

1447
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:56,559
Speaker 2: time that we acknowledge that to feel like your actions

1448
01:15:56,600 --> 01:15:59,599
Speaker 2: are not under your own control is not a heightened

1449
01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:02,800
Speaker 2: state of consciousness, that is still a problem. Yeah, and

1450
01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:05,720
Speaker 2: it and I don't know exactly what that signals. That

1451
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:09,040
Speaker 2: may be yet another unresolved tension in the issue of

1452
01:16:09,040 --> 01:16:12,000
Speaker 2: free will, that like, the more closely we examine it,

1453
01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:14,080
Speaker 2: the less we feel like we have it, and yet

1454
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:17,599
Speaker 2: genuinely feeling like you don't have it, the more you

1455
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:20,320
Speaker 2: feel that way, the more this is a serious impediment

1456
01:16:20,400 --> 01:16:21,840
Speaker 2: to you living a healthy life.

1457
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:25,439
Speaker 1: Absolutely, now, this seems this may seem like a logical

1458
01:16:25,479 --> 01:16:29,080
Speaker 1: place to end the conversation, but one of the things

1459
01:16:29,120 --> 01:16:32,960
Speaker 1: that's really interesting here is that is that we were

1460
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:35,519
Speaker 1: talking about an episode of Black Mirror that deals with

1461
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 1: free will and our choices in life. And certainly again

1462
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:42,000
Speaker 1: Black Mirror frequently comments on our unease regarding new technology,

1463
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:46,080
Speaker 1: but then band or Snatch itself this show on Netflix

1464
01:16:46,160 --> 01:16:50,840
Speaker 1: this this movie. This movie itself factors into some user

1465
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:55,200
Speaker 1: concerns about the future of this sort of interactive viewing technology.

1466
01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:59,240
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, I would say one of the things

1467
01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:01,760
Speaker 2: that is a legitimate concern about free will, however you

1468
01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:05,200
Speaker 2: define it as murky as it is. At least one

1469
01:17:05,240 --> 01:17:08,120
Speaker 2: thing that we want is to we want to think

1470
01:17:08,160 --> 01:17:12,599
Speaker 2: that we understand the incoming influences on our behavior, right

1471
01:17:13,080 --> 01:17:15,519
Speaker 2: Like you'd like to think that if I did X,

1472
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:18,120
Speaker 2: I can sort of make sense of that it was

1473
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:20,799
Speaker 2: because I read this book, or I read this article,

1474
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:23,760
Speaker 2: or I had a conversation with this person, and I

1475
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:27,280
Speaker 2: connect the knowledge I gained through that or the influences

1476
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:31,559
Speaker 2: of those past experiences with the decision I just made.

1477
01:17:32,120 --> 01:17:35,800
Speaker 2: Life starts getting more difficult when you have trouble understanding

1478
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:38,320
Speaker 2: what the influences on yourself are.

1479
01:17:38,520 --> 01:17:39,320
Speaker 4: Does that make sense?

1480
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:42,280
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, And we've we've discussed some of these in

1481
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:44,000
Speaker 1: the past. We've discussed a number of these in the past,

1482
01:17:44,200 --> 01:17:47,439
Speaker 1: but technologically speaking, we have discussed advertising and we have

1483
01:17:47,479 --> 01:17:51,800
Speaker 1: discussed social media, which are good things to keep in

1484
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:54,439
Speaker 1: mind as we continue here. Because there might not be

1485
01:17:54,479 --> 01:17:57,000
Speaker 1: a band or snatcher, a demon awaiting you in the

1486
01:17:57,040 --> 01:18:00,320
Speaker 1: maze of future interactive media technology. But there there might

1487
01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:06,000
Speaker 1: just be some highly targeted advertisements for example. So two

1488
01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:09,920
Speaker 1: individuals that I ran across wrote about this topic or

1489
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:13,040
Speaker 1: touched on this topic. One is Matthew Galt, who wrote

1490
01:18:13,040 --> 01:18:17,040
Speaker 1: about this last year for Vice's Motherboard, and then Tiffany

1491
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:20,040
Speaker 1: Schu wrote about it for The New York Times. So

1492
01:18:20,120 --> 01:18:24,439
Speaker 1: Galt wrote about Michael Veil, a technology policy researcher at

1493
01:18:24,520 --> 01:18:29,600
Speaker 1: University College London, who utilized Europe's General Data Protection Regulation

1494
01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:34,240
Speaker 1: or GDPR law to request a copy of the data

1495
01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:38,519
Speaker 1: Netflix collected about him and his choices through the use

1496
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:43,120
Speaker 1: of the Bandersnatch program. Now they complied, perhaps in part

1497
01:18:43,160 --> 01:18:46,720
Speaker 1: because of veil status as a public person, but basically

1498
01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:50,800
Speaker 1: Netflix acquires this information in order to carry out the

1499
01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:54,400
Speaker 1: Bandersnatch experience, which makes sense, right, it has to chart

1500
01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:59,280
Speaker 1: your path through this complex system. But then also Netflix

1501
01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:02,400
Speaker 1: keeps this in which the company claims is in order

1502
01:19:02,439 --> 01:19:05,920
Speaker 1: to quote determine how to improve this model of storytelling

1503
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:09,840
Speaker 1: in the context of a show or movie. And I mean,

1504
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:12,439
Speaker 1: on one level that sounds well and good as well,

1505
01:19:12,479 --> 01:19:16,240
Speaker 1: except that Vial thinks that Netflix quote should really be

1506
01:19:16,320 --> 01:19:19,960
Speaker 1: using consent, which you should be able to refuse or

1507
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:24,559
Speaker 1: legitimate interest, meaning that you can object to it instead. Now,

1508
01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:27,640
Speaker 1: in Shoe's article, she points to the early choice we

1509
01:19:27,720 --> 01:19:33,639
Speaker 1: make between Kellogg's Frosty's and then Quaker Sugar Puffs. Now,

1510
01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:36,200
Speaker 1: both of these are real serials, though I have to

1511
01:19:36,240 --> 01:19:39,920
Speaker 1: admit I thought Quaker Sugarpuffs was made up because it

1512
01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:43,519
Speaker 1: has this ridiculous honey monster mascot that's like super fun,

1513
01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:45,240
Speaker 1: kind of a cheddar Goblin sort of thing.

1514
01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:45,839
Speaker 2: Nice.

1515
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:49,280
Speaker 1: But it turns out this was an actual UK product.

1516
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:52,720
Speaker 1: It was just a UK only product, so Americans such

1517
01:19:52,720 --> 01:19:55,719
Speaker 1: as ourselves were perhaps not privy to it. But again,

1518
01:19:55,760 --> 01:19:59,320
Speaker 1: both were real products, and neither one was a paid inclusion,

1519
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:02,560
Speaker 1: so it was not a official product placement or product integration.

1520
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:07,000
Speaker 1: And Netflix, of course is like an ad free system anyway.

1521
01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:11,440
Speaker 1: But Shoe points to some of the words of Read Hastings,

1522
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:15,000
Speaker 1: co founder, chairman and CEO of Netflix, who pointed out

1523
01:20:15,080 --> 01:20:18,240
Speaker 1: during a webcast tied to an earnings report that seventy

1524
01:20:18,280 --> 01:20:24,120
Speaker 1: three percent of Bandersnatch viewers selected kellogg Frosty's over the

1525
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:26,080
Speaker 1: Quaker Sugar Puffs.

1526
01:20:26,080 --> 01:20:28,679
Speaker 4: Oh no, I did too. I feel so vulnerable right now.

1527
01:20:29,200 --> 01:20:31,599
Speaker 1: I don't remember what I did the first time around

1528
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:33,439
Speaker 1: the first time I watched it, I also watched with

1529
01:20:33,479 --> 01:20:36,559
Speaker 1: my wife, so we were voting on which choices. You know,

1530
01:20:36,560 --> 01:20:39,080
Speaker 1: we're having a discussion. I guess I should have mentioned

1531
01:20:39,120 --> 01:20:40,920
Speaker 1: that earlier, because that has a whole other wrinkled as

1532
01:20:40,920 --> 01:20:44,120
Speaker 1: a scenario of making communal choices and voting on something.

1533
01:20:44,400 --> 01:20:47,920
Speaker 1: But on my own, I chose the Quaker thing just

1534
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:51,080
Speaker 1: because I thought it looked weirder. Okay, but again I'm

1535
01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:54,400
Speaker 1: in the minority for doing so. So first of all,

1536
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:56,479
Speaker 1: I think this is a shame because I think the

1537
01:20:56,479 --> 01:20:59,320
Speaker 1: cover and TV advertisement for Quaker Sugar Puffs is awesome

1538
01:20:59,320 --> 01:21:02,160
Speaker 1: and weird. Again, but more to the point, as Shoe

1539
01:21:02,160 --> 01:21:06,240
Speaker 1: points out, Spencer Wang, a Netflix vice president, chimed in

1540
01:21:06,360 --> 01:21:08,280
Speaker 1: and joked, and let's be clear he was He was

1541
01:21:08,320 --> 01:21:11,519
Speaker 1: apparently joking that this was the most critical data point

1542
01:21:11,560 --> 01:21:12,120
Speaker 1: of the quarter.

1543
01:21:13,040 --> 01:21:13,240
Speaker 4: Now.

1544
01:21:13,240 --> 01:21:16,080
Speaker 1: She writes that while Netflix doesn't run commercials and has

1545
01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:19,799
Speaker 1: stated that it would not use bandersnatch information for anything

1546
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:23,400
Speaker 1: like this, others outside the company do see the potential, namely,

1547
01:21:23,439 --> 01:21:27,160
Speaker 1: in quote, the possibility of inserting brand name products into

1548
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:31,880
Speaker 1: streaming shows based on data generated by interactive programming. Now,

1549
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:34,840
Speaker 1: Shoe stresses that the technology to roll this out isn't

1550
01:21:34,840 --> 01:21:38,280
Speaker 1: here yet. But I suppose we have to consider two

1551
01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:42,680
Speaker 1: key factors in that statement. So, first of all, we

1552
01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:46,519
Speaker 1: were in the early days of truly interactive features like

1553
01:21:46,560 --> 01:21:50,200
Speaker 1: this on major streaming platforms, you know, assume, and that

1554
01:21:50,280 --> 01:21:52,519
Speaker 1: is just assuming that it really catches on at all.

1555
01:21:52,600 --> 01:21:56,680
Speaker 1: As we've discussed, interactive cinema is not new. It's been

1556
01:21:56,720 --> 01:22:01,200
Speaker 1: around for decades and it has largely failed to catch on.

1557
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:06,720
Speaker 1: It is not like a driving force in our entertainment.

1558
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:08,960
Speaker 1: You'll find plenty of examples of it. You also find

1559
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:12,120
Speaker 1: a lot of computer games that kind of fulfill this

1560
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:14,560
Speaker 1: this niche right, Yeah.

1561
01:22:14,240 --> 01:22:15,799
Speaker 4: Those are also sort of failed.

1562
01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:20,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I would have there are certainly deeper

1563
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:22,280
Speaker 1: dives and say the history of things like what Telltale

1564
01:22:22,320 --> 01:22:24,760
Speaker 1: Games I think was the company maybe that did a

1565
01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:27,960
Speaker 1: number of these things that were again not really released

1566
01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:30,800
Speaker 1: as they weren't marketed as interactive movies so much as

1567
01:22:30,800 --> 01:22:35,000
Speaker 1: they were interactive gaming experiences. So that's one thing to consider.

1568
01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:38,360
Speaker 1: Interest in interactive films has essentially gone up and down

1569
01:22:38,360 --> 01:22:40,800
Speaker 1: over the years, and again it hasn't really like ignited

1570
01:22:41,479 --> 01:22:44,600
Speaker 1: still Netflix and also Netflix itself has only released a

1571
01:22:44,640 --> 01:22:48,720
Speaker 1: handful of interactive titles, mostly kids stuff. Bandersnatch is their

1572
01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:52,920
Speaker 1: only true adult drama release in this of this product type,

1573
01:22:53,240 --> 01:22:56,160
Speaker 1: though they claimed to be doubling down on interactive content

1574
01:22:56,200 --> 01:22:59,120
Speaker 1: in the future. Given you know how Netflix tends to

1575
01:22:59,120 --> 01:23:02,640
Speaker 1: be a little bit secretive about what's coming out, or

1576
01:23:02,640 --> 01:23:04,559
Speaker 1: at least they don't tell you a lot, I guess

1577
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:06,639
Speaker 1: we'll just have to know about it when we see

1578
01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:10,400
Speaker 1: it pop up. But also it's also worth reminding ourselves

1579
01:23:10,400 --> 01:23:12,840
Speaker 1: that a great deal of work went into creating Bandersnatch

1580
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:15,880
Speaker 1: as well. I think I've seen it written that like

1581
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:19,559
Speaker 1: three times as much work went into Bandersnatch versus say

1582
01:23:20,320 --> 01:23:23,879
Speaker 1: that long episode of the show that was approximately ninety minutes,

1583
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:28,280
Speaker 1: So is it cost effective content? Are all the limitations

1584
01:23:28,400 --> 01:23:31,200
Speaker 1: worked out yet? For instance, I don't believe Bandersnatch works

1585
01:23:31,200 --> 01:23:34,479
Speaker 1: on many mobile formats or older models, like you have

1586
01:23:34,560 --> 01:23:37,400
Speaker 1: to have something more updated. Like I tried to load

1587
01:23:37,439 --> 01:23:41,160
Speaker 1: it onto my phone and I have an older iPhone.

1588
01:23:41,479 --> 01:23:43,120
Speaker 1: I tried to load it on there to watch on

1589
01:23:43,160 --> 01:23:45,960
Speaker 1: an airplane and it wouldn't work. I had to watch

1590
01:23:45,960 --> 01:23:49,080
Speaker 1: it through my Xbox One. And another big concern is

1591
01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:51,599
Speaker 1: there would need to be I guess enough interactive content

1592
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:54,960
Speaker 1: out there tuned for this sort of thing to generate

1593
01:23:55,040 --> 01:23:58,280
Speaker 1: the necessary user data to then be employed.

1594
01:23:58,840 --> 01:24:01,120
Speaker 2: I can really see this kind of thing being used

1595
01:24:01,160 --> 01:24:03,680
Speaker 2: as a as a major data mining I mean, I

1596
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:07,479
Speaker 2: don't know, it seems very possible to get psychologically salient

1597
01:24:07,560 --> 01:24:08,400
Speaker 2: information through this.

1598
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:09,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1599
01:24:09,240 --> 01:24:11,720
Speaker 2: Now, of course that they're already getting information through all

1600
01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:13,840
Speaker 2: kinds of things. You know, the tech business can get

1601
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:17,960
Speaker 2: your information through through what you buy online, through what

1602
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:20,880
Speaker 2: websites you visit, through what you do on Facebook or

1603
01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:21,799
Speaker 2: other social media.

1604
01:24:21,880 --> 01:24:25,000
Speaker 1: Right Like, a website like Netflix already knows what kind

1605
01:24:25,040 --> 01:24:28,120
Speaker 1: of movies you have watched, what kind you like, what

1606
01:24:28,200 --> 01:24:31,120
Speaker 1: kind of movies you want to like, and then also

1607
01:24:31,760 --> 01:24:33,880
Speaker 1: you know how you have rated things as well, and

1608
01:24:33,920 --> 01:24:36,880
Speaker 1: then they can serve you a recommendation of what you

1609
01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:38,240
Speaker 1: might want to watch in the future.

1610
01:24:38,479 --> 01:24:41,080
Speaker 2: Right now, This is so, of course we're talking about

1611
01:24:41,080 --> 01:24:44,840
Speaker 2: this and possibly going multiple ways. One is using interactive

1612
01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:49,040
Speaker 2: choices in a film to gather data about you, and

1613
01:24:49,120 --> 01:24:54,000
Speaker 2: the other side would be giving like specially user tailored

1614
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:58,000
Speaker 2: media experiences, which we already get somewhat of course on websites,

1615
01:24:58,040 --> 01:25:00,200
Speaker 2: you know, you get websites loading with the ad of

1616
01:25:00,240 --> 01:25:03,439
Speaker 2: stuff you searched for on Amazon and all that. But yeah,

1617
01:25:03,439 --> 01:25:05,600
Speaker 2: I guess we're being forced to consider what if that

1618
01:25:05,640 --> 01:25:08,800
Speaker 2: starts happening within the movies and TV shows you watch,

1619
01:25:09,360 --> 01:25:13,280
Speaker 2: So you start seeing product placement for specific products that

1620
01:25:13,320 --> 01:25:17,600
Speaker 2: are aimed at you individually within the shows you watch.

1621
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:21,840
Speaker 1: Right right, Like, you know, they know that given the

1622
01:25:21,840 --> 01:25:26,840
Speaker 1: serial scenario, like potentially the master of the content, be

1623
01:25:26,920 --> 01:25:31,519
Speaker 1: it Netflix or some other company, Hypothetically, they might know

1624
01:25:31,680 --> 01:25:34,400
Speaker 1: that you are, say more inclined towards, you know, healthy

1625
01:25:34,400 --> 01:25:39,040
Speaker 1: lifestyle choices, and therefore some sort of granola, you know,

1626
01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:42,839
Speaker 1: health wrapped content would be ideal for you in that scenario.

1627
01:25:43,080 --> 01:25:47,240
Speaker 1: Or they might know that that's not your ideal cereal,

1628
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:49,400
Speaker 1: or maybe they know that you have children in the

1629
01:25:49,400 --> 01:25:52,280
Speaker 1: house and therefore a children's cereal would be more appropriate.

1630
01:25:52,600 --> 01:25:55,560
Speaker 1: Like that's the kind of information that they could conceivably

1631
01:25:55,640 --> 01:25:59,280
Speaker 1: have and then feed into the cereal that appears before

1632
01:25:59,320 --> 01:25:59,920
Speaker 1: you on the screen.

1633
01:26:00,360 --> 01:26:03,680
Speaker 2: Now, that would be, of course, something we're more familiar with,

1634
01:26:03,840 --> 01:26:07,200
Speaker 2: just like inserting ads. And you might imagine a character

1635
01:26:07,320 --> 01:26:10,080
Speaker 2: walking past a billboard or something in a movie like

1636
01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:13,439
Speaker 2: happens all the time now except that billboard can be

1637
01:26:13,640 --> 01:26:16,599
Speaker 2: you know, dynamically inserted with new imagery or something.

1638
01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:17,000
Speaker 1: Right.

1639
01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:20,760
Speaker 2: I think things start getting even creepier when you imagine

1640
01:26:21,560 --> 01:26:24,479
Speaker 2: something more like Band or Snatch Itself, where there are

1641
01:26:24,680 --> 01:26:27,600
Speaker 2: alternative versions of a film that are specially tailored to you,

1642
01:26:27,720 --> 01:26:32,519
Speaker 2: that have different narrative content depending on who's watching. I mean, so,

1643
01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:34,759
Speaker 2: one thing Robert and I were talking about briefly before

1644
01:26:34,760 --> 01:26:37,680
Speaker 2: we came in here is the idea that you know,

1645
01:26:37,720 --> 01:26:41,759
Speaker 2: we often know that movies can embody values, of course,

1646
01:26:41,840 --> 01:26:44,960
Speaker 2: you know that, like sometimes the values of a filmmaker

1647
01:26:45,160 --> 01:26:48,680
Speaker 2: creator come through and what happens in a story, and

1648
01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:52,599
Speaker 2: then other times there are sort of like cheap attempts

1649
01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:55,800
Speaker 2: to display values what would often be called like pandering, right,

1650
01:26:55,880 --> 01:26:59,360
Speaker 2: you know, like you know, cheap appeals to patriotism or

1651
01:26:59,400 --> 01:27:01,120
Speaker 2: something like that in a movie.

1652
01:27:01,520 --> 01:27:03,280
Speaker 1: Or I don't know, I guess you could make an

1653
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:06,599
Speaker 1: argument for awards season Academy Awards bait as well.

1654
01:27:06,479 --> 01:27:09,719
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, sure, you know, just like sort of cheap

1655
01:27:09,720 --> 01:27:15,720
Speaker 2: attempts to exploit the specific desires or value interests of

1656
01:27:15,920 --> 01:27:17,400
Speaker 2: a specific target audience.

1657
01:27:17,640 --> 01:27:21,400
Speaker 4: Right, And so you can imagine.

1658
01:27:21,000 --> 01:27:23,800
Speaker 2: Okay, well, now if a movie is made and it

1659
01:27:23,880 --> 01:27:27,920
Speaker 2: wants to pander, it needs to at least make a choice. Right,

1660
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:30,439
Speaker 2: It's hard to pander to everybody at the same time.

1661
01:27:31,520 --> 01:27:35,559
Speaker 2: But you can imagine, Okay, what if somebody just starts

1662
01:27:35,560 --> 01:27:38,240
Speaker 2: making more like a Bandersnatch kind of thing where maybe

1663
01:27:38,240 --> 01:27:40,320
Speaker 2: you don't make the choices, the choices are made for

1664
01:27:40,400 --> 01:27:43,160
Speaker 2: you based on what is known about your user profile.

1665
01:27:43,720 --> 01:27:46,920
Speaker 2: And so what I was imagining beforehand was you could

1666
01:27:46,920 --> 01:27:49,840
Speaker 2: have different versions of the movie Independence Day.

1667
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:52,880
Speaker 4: You remember that speech Bill Pullman gives before they all

1668
01:27:52,880 --> 01:27:55,439
Speaker 4: get in the planes and go fly off and fight.

1669
01:27:55,720 --> 01:27:57,160
Speaker 1: Oh yes, So it's.

1670
01:27:57,000 --> 01:27:59,439
Speaker 2: This rousing moment where Bill Pullman gives this kind of

1671
01:27:59,600 --> 01:28:03,400
Speaker 2: innocus speech that could appeal to basically anybody. But you

1672
01:28:03,439 --> 01:28:07,280
Speaker 2: can make that speech a much more tailored, specific interest

1673
01:28:07,320 --> 01:28:10,120
Speaker 2: group pandering kind of thing, where you could have one

1674
01:28:10,200 --> 01:28:13,080
Speaker 2: version of the film that plays for somebody that's that's

1675
01:28:13,160 --> 01:28:15,840
Speaker 2: very inclusive. He gives a speech he's like, humans will

1676
01:28:15,920 --> 01:28:18,320
Speaker 2: join arms together around the world. There will be no

1677
01:28:18,439 --> 01:28:21,120
Speaker 2: more nations and borders and creeds and all. You know,

1678
01:28:21,320 --> 01:28:23,519
Speaker 2: we all unite as one and stand in brothers and

1679
01:28:23,880 --> 01:28:26,920
Speaker 2: as brothers and sisters against this. Or you could have

1680
01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:29,880
Speaker 2: a version where he gives a speech about American exceptionalism

1681
01:28:29,920 --> 01:28:32,000
Speaker 2: and how we're the first and we stand up and

1682
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:34,439
Speaker 2: fight when no one else will, or you could get

1683
01:28:34,439 --> 01:28:36,599
Speaker 2: you know, you can imagine a million versions of this

1684
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:40,120
Speaker 2: depending on what kind of user they think you are

1685
01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:41,440
Speaker 2: who are watching.

1686
01:28:41,439 --> 01:28:45,400
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, and that that kind of personality profile

1687
01:28:46,000 --> 01:28:49,519
Speaker 1: or worldview profile would be pretty easy to acquire. I mean,

1688
01:28:49,560 --> 01:28:54,280
Speaker 1: basically websites like Facebook have that information. Like sure, they're

1689
01:28:54,320 --> 01:28:59,080
Speaker 1: not feeding you independence day to a tailored speech in it,

1690
01:28:59,120 --> 01:29:02,280
Speaker 1: but they are feeding giving you a feed that that

1691
01:29:02,840 --> 01:29:05,640
Speaker 1: reflects your world views and values.

1692
01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:09,120
Speaker 2: And people are very invested in like the values of

1693
01:29:09,120 --> 01:29:12,240
Speaker 2: what media they consume these days. I can imagine it

1694
01:29:12,360 --> 01:29:16,760
Speaker 2: being judged a very profitable enterprise by some studios to say, well,

1695
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:19,320
Speaker 2: let's just cover all the bases. You know, we'll have

1696
01:29:19,400 --> 01:29:21,720
Speaker 2: way less trouble if we make a movie, you know,

1697
01:29:21,840 --> 01:29:24,080
Speaker 2: a version A of the movie for you and a

1698
01:29:24,200 --> 01:29:26,720
Speaker 2: version B of the movie for you. It doesn't have

1699
01:29:26,840 --> 01:29:29,320
Speaker 2: to be a coherent vision or picture of the world.

1700
01:29:29,560 --> 01:29:31,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is you know. I can't help but think

1701
01:29:31,760 --> 01:29:34,200
Speaker 1: on past films, like, for instance, we talked about Conan

1702
01:29:34,240 --> 01:29:37,160
Speaker 1: the Barbarian on the show in the past, like that

1703
01:29:37,320 --> 01:29:39,760
Speaker 1: is a film that has a has a very particular

1704
01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:43,439
Speaker 1: view of what strength means and what, uh you know,

1705
01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:48,040
Speaker 1: how power works, et cetera. And it's not everybody's political

1706
01:29:48,320 --> 01:29:50,920
Speaker 1: or philosophical cup of tea. Sure, I mean you can.

1707
01:29:51,080 --> 01:29:53,439
Speaker 1: I think you can enjoy that film without focusing on

1708
01:29:53,479 --> 01:29:58,000
Speaker 1: all of that. But still it's definitely there. And that's

1709
01:29:58,040 --> 01:29:59,800
Speaker 1: not a film, I mean, especially at the time it

1710
01:29:59,840 --> 01:30:02,440
Speaker 1: came out. It's not a film where you would necessarily

1711
01:30:02,479 --> 01:30:05,439
Speaker 1: ask for an alternate version of it. But again, it's

1712
01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:07,360
Speaker 1: very clear in what it's saying. But then you have

1713
01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:10,519
Speaker 1: films like say Patent. Patent is often brought up as

1714
01:30:10,600 --> 01:30:13,720
Speaker 1: example of a film that meant one thing to one

1715
01:30:13,800 --> 01:30:16,439
Speaker 1: part of a divided America and another to the other

1716
01:30:16,479 --> 01:30:19,800
Speaker 1: part of a divided America without having to have like

1717
01:30:19,840 --> 01:30:20,960
Speaker 1: an ab version.

1718
01:30:21,320 --> 01:30:22,840
Speaker 2: Right Yeah, I think you could say that about a

1719
01:30:22,840 --> 01:30:25,519
Speaker 2: lot of like war movies, especially. I think that might

1720
01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:28,400
Speaker 2: be sort of true of Platoon, right yeah, is that

1721
01:30:28,520 --> 01:30:29,520
Speaker 2: like an anti.

1722
01:30:29,200 --> 01:30:31,040
Speaker 4: War movie or a patriotic movie?

1723
01:30:31,080 --> 01:30:32,920
Speaker 2: You know, you sort of have some elements of each

1724
01:30:33,080 --> 01:30:34,960
Speaker 2: you can latch onto what you want to see there,

1725
01:30:36,120 --> 01:30:38,800
Speaker 2: But yeah, I don't know. I'm somewhat disturbed by the

1726
01:30:38,840 --> 01:30:42,880
Speaker 2: idea of like of media filling up with these like

1727
01:30:43,000 --> 01:30:46,160
Speaker 2: personally tailored options that are designed to make a sort

1728
01:30:46,160 --> 01:30:51,759
Speaker 2: of like generic media template individually palatable to the user,

1729
01:30:52,160 --> 01:30:54,640
Speaker 2: as opposed to standing for something on its own and

1730
01:30:54,680 --> 01:30:55,920
Speaker 2: allowing you to judge it.

1731
01:30:56,080 --> 01:30:59,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, or having some level of ambiguity, like does the

1732
01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:04,400
Speaker 1: as the modern audience and like the near future audience,

1733
01:31:04,479 --> 01:31:07,400
Speaker 1: do they want ambiguity in their work or do they

1734
01:31:07,439 --> 01:31:12,280
Speaker 1: want like a clear cut view that is expressed clear

1735
01:31:12,320 --> 01:31:14,760
Speaker 1: cut values not only of the film, but of like

1736
01:31:14,880 --> 01:31:18,040
Speaker 1: the creator or creators behind it, like they you know,

1737
01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:21,280
Speaker 1: is there is there an increased hunger for that? And

1738
01:31:21,960 --> 01:31:24,760
Speaker 1: if that is the case, you could easily see a

1739
01:31:24,800 --> 01:31:27,879
Speaker 1: way of worming around that by taking this ABC approach

1740
01:31:28,000 --> 01:31:31,880
Speaker 1: to film creation, because then nobody can say, well, I

1741
01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:33,600
Speaker 1: like the character of Cone in the Barbarian, but I

1742
01:31:33,680 --> 01:31:38,600
Speaker 1: think your view is pro totalitarianism and you know, I

1743
01:31:38,640 --> 01:31:43,080
Speaker 1: don't know, celebrates toxic masculinity or whatever the critique might be,

1744
01:31:43,479 --> 01:31:46,080
Speaker 1: And then they could say, well, that's all good, well

1745
01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:48,360
Speaker 1: and good, but you're you're only talking about one version

1746
01:31:48,680 --> 01:31:50,280
Speaker 1: if you watch Cone in the Barbarian.

1747
01:31:51,000 --> 01:31:51,200
Speaker 2: You know.

1748
01:31:51,240 --> 01:31:56,640
Speaker 1: The twenty twenty eight relaunch of the platform then you

1749
01:31:56,680 --> 01:31:59,360
Speaker 1: will get what is tailored to you. It's treatment of

1750
01:31:59,400 --> 01:32:03,679
Speaker 1: masculinity and power will be exactly what you want to see.

1751
01:32:04,320 --> 01:32:07,080
Speaker 1: And I mean that opens the door to just a

1752
01:32:07,080 --> 01:32:10,040
Speaker 1: big question of like what art is and what does

1753
01:32:10,040 --> 01:32:13,599
Speaker 1: that do to you know, to the role of these

1754
01:32:13,680 --> 01:32:15,639
Speaker 1: narratives in our culture.

1755
01:32:15,920 --> 01:32:20,559
Speaker 2: I remember many years ago how much of like the

1756
01:32:20,600 --> 01:32:23,759
Speaker 2: new Internet and the new media landscape was being sold

1757
01:32:23,840 --> 01:32:27,240
Speaker 2: to us. It was so often on the selling point

1758
01:32:27,240 --> 01:32:31,559
Speaker 2: of customization and individualization. You know, get what's right for you,

1759
01:32:31,680 --> 01:32:35,639
Speaker 2: get an experience that's personally tailored for you. And somehow

1760
01:32:35,720 --> 01:32:38,320
Speaker 2: I just feel like we were not able to anticipate

1761
01:32:38,479 --> 01:32:41,400
Speaker 2: how scary and messed up that would feel when it

1762
01:32:41,439 --> 01:32:42,320
Speaker 2: actually happened.

1763
01:32:42,479 --> 01:32:44,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I like to come back to Bandersnatch. The

1764
01:32:44,960 --> 01:32:48,120
Speaker 1: first time I watched it, I think it probably was

1765
01:32:48,200 --> 01:32:52,120
Speaker 1: over two hours that I spent questing after the happy ending,

1766
01:32:52,200 --> 01:32:54,360
Speaker 1: and I got it, and I have to admit I

1767
01:32:54,360 --> 01:32:57,840
Speaker 1: felt a little empty when I reached it. The second time,

1768
01:32:58,080 --> 01:33:01,639
Speaker 1: I tried to just again make more dramatic choices, make

1769
01:33:01,680 --> 01:33:03,280
Speaker 1: a choice here and there that were just different from

1770
01:33:03,280 --> 01:33:06,200
Speaker 1: what I did. The first time. I got a bleak ending,

1771
01:33:06,640 --> 01:33:13,360
Speaker 1: but it felt more authentic so yeah, it's interesting to

1772
01:33:13,400 --> 01:33:18,800
Speaker 1: think about how choice potentially impacts our appreciation of a

1773
01:33:18,840 --> 01:33:22,640
Speaker 1: work like this, especially if we're talking about increasingly interactive

1774
01:33:22,760 --> 01:33:25,240
Speaker 1: work in a hypothetical future.

1775
01:33:25,600 --> 01:33:27,320
Speaker 2: Had to find a good bleak note to end on.

1776
01:33:27,439 --> 01:33:28,120
Speaker 2: I think that's it.

1777
01:33:28,320 --> 01:33:31,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, if we're talking about black Mirror,

1778
01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:34,479
Speaker 1: that's where we have to leave it. All right, Well,

1779
01:33:34,479 --> 01:33:37,160
Speaker 1: we covered a lot of ground in there. I imagine

1780
01:33:37,280 --> 01:33:40,519
Speaker 1: listeners will want to chime in, certainly on Bandersnatch if

1781
01:33:40,520 --> 01:33:42,559
Speaker 1: they have experienced it. I'd love to hear from anyone

1782
01:33:42,600 --> 01:33:44,919
Speaker 1: who's like, how much time did you spend on Banderstatch?

1783
01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:46,720
Speaker 1: How many viewings have you given? Did you do like

1784
01:33:46,800 --> 01:33:50,040
Speaker 1: Joe and go in and try and find every golden

1785
01:33:50,040 --> 01:33:50,599
Speaker 1: Easter egg?

1786
01:33:50,720 --> 01:33:52,160
Speaker 4: I didn't get all of them, but I got a

1787
01:33:52,160 --> 01:33:52,599
Speaker 4: lot of them.

1788
01:33:52,760 --> 01:33:54,160
Speaker 1: Or did you do like me? Did you sort of

1789
01:33:54,200 --> 01:33:56,240
Speaker 1: go through it once and maybe go through a second time?

1790
01:33:56,280 --> 01:33:58,400
Speaker 1: And maybe you haven't seen or haven't read about the

1791
01:33:58,439 --> 01:34:02,240
Speaker 1: other endings. And of course free will you all have

1792
01:34:02,360 --> 01:34:03,840
Speaker 1: it or maybe you all don't have it but you

1793
01:34:03,840 --> 01:34:06,160
Speaker 1: think you have it, which however you want to look

1794
01:34:06,160 --> 01:34:09,000
Speaker 1: at it. You all have some thoughts about free Will.

1795
01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:11,240
Speaker 1: You all have some experience to share about this, and

1796
01:34:11,280 --> 01:34:13,719
Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you in the meantime.

1797
01:34:13,760 --> 01:34:15,240
Speaker 1: If you want to check out more Stuff to Blow

1798
01:34:15,240 --> 01:34:18,000
Speaker 1: your Mind, you can find us anywhere you get your podcasts.

1799
01:34:18,200 --> 01:34:20,040
Speaker 1: You can certainly go to stuff to Blow your Mind

1800
01:34:20,080 --> 01:34:22,200
Speaker 1: dot com and that will redirect you to a place

1801
01:34:22,200 --> 01:34:25,240
Speaker 1: where you can find the episodes and wherever you get

1802
01:34:25,240 --> 01:34:26,960
Speaker 1: the show. We just have to ask that you support

1803
01:34:27,040 --> 01:34:30,360
Speaker 1: us by rating and reviewing and subscribing. And don't forget

1804
01:34:30,400 --> 01:34:33,879
Speaker 1: we have another show out there titled Invention and Invention

1805
01:34:34,320 --> 01:34:37,400
Speaker 1: covers human technohistory, one invention at a time.

1806
01:34:37,960 --> 01:34:40,880
Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth

1807
01:34:40,960 --> 01:34:43,840
Speaker 2: Nicholas Johnson, who is doing a heroic quick turnaround on

1808
01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:48,040
Speaker 2: today's episode, So praise him, everyone, praise him. If you

1809
01:34:48,080 --> 01:34:50,639
Speaker 2: would like to get in touch with us with notes

1810
01:34:50,680 --> 01:34:53,080
Speaker 2: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

1811
01:34:53,120 --> 01:34:55,559
Speaker 2: for the future, just to say hi, you can email

1812
01:34:55,680 --> 01:35:05,879
Speaker 2: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

1813
01:35:06,040 --> 01:35:08,160
Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeartRadio.

1814
01:35:08,240 --> 01:35:10,920
Speaker 3: How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit

1815
01:35:10,920 --> 01:35:13,840
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Speaker 3: your favorite shows.