WEBVTT - Ramifications for Giuliani After Ukraine Allies' Arrests

0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:07.040
<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:09.680
<v Speaker 1>day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:12.200
<v Speaker 1>important legal news of the day. You can find more

0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:16.160
<v Speaker 1>episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.400
<v Speaker 1>and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Another dramatic twist

0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:24.040
<v Speaker 1>to the impeachment inquiry, putting Rudy Giuliani closer to the

0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:27.680
<v Speaker 1>center of that inquiry into whether President Trump wrongly pressured

0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:32.040
<v Speaker 1>the Ukrainian government to investigate his political rival while withholding

0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.519
<v Speaker 1>aid to the country. Two of Giuliani's associates have been

0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:40.680
<v Speaker 1>indicted on campaign finance charges for criminal charges including conspiracy,

0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.960
<v Speaker 1>falsifying records, and lying to the Federal Election Commission. Joining

0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:47.760
<v Speaker 1>me as former federal prosecutor Robert Mintz, head of the

0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:51.880
<v Speaker 1>white collar practice at McCarter in English. So people often

0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:56.520
<v Speaker 1>here campaign finance charges and dismiss them as something that's

0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:00.840
<v Speaker 1>not that serious. Just how serious are these charges? Well,

0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:04.680
<v Speaker 1>these are very serious charges, and they carry potential lengthy

0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:08.240
<v Speaker 1>prison sentences if somebody is convicted. And essentially what federal

0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:13.040
<v Speaker 1>law prohibits here are foreign campaign contributions to American politicians

0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:15.640
<v Speaker 1>at any level of government, and the idea behind this

0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:18.560
<v Speaker 1>is simply that we don't want foreign governments to be

0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.559
<v Speaker 1>interfering in our electoral process, whether that's on the state

0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:25.200
<v Speaker 1>or federal level. These two men were arrested at the

0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.039
<v Speaker 1>airport as they were about to board a flight to

0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:32.560
<v Speaker 1>Germany with one way plane tickets. That's something that juries

0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:36.399
<v Speaker 1>can really latch onto. Here. What we had was what's

0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:40.400
<v Speaker 1>called a sealed indictment. That means that these individuals a

0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:43.400
<v Speaker 1>four individuals charged in this case had already been indicted

0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:46.000
<v Speaker 1>by a federal grand jury, and the U. S. Attorney's

0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:49.120
<v Speaker 1>Office simply had not unsealed that indictment. What they did was,

0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:51.440
<v Speaker 1>as soon as they found out that these two individuals

0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:53.639
<v Speaker 1>were about to board a plane to leave the country

0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:56.000
<v Speaker 1>and had one way tickets, they went out and arrested

0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:58.840
<v Speaker 1>them immediately because there was certainly a chance that they

0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:01.400
<v Speaker 1>would go to a country where extradition would be difficult

0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:04.400
<v Speaker 1>or perhaps impossible, and then it would be almost impossible

0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:08.040
<v Speaker 1>to ultimately bring these two individuals to justice. So would

0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.680
<v Speaker 1>jury draw an adverse inference from that that they were

0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:14.760
<v Speaker 1>had one weight plane tickets, Well, it really depends on

0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:18.679
<v Speaker 1>the circumstances. Of their departure. If they could, for example,

0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:21.280
<v Speaker 1>point to the fact that they were traveling overseas for

0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:24.120
<v Speaker 1>some legitimate business reason, or that they had traveled overseas

0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:27.400
<v Speaker 1>on a routine basis, it might not appear as necessarious.

0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:29.520
<v Speaker 1>On the other hand, if prosecutors can point to the

0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:33.160
<v Speaker 1>fact that these individuals had gotten wind of these charges

0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:35.320
<v Speaker 1>or knew that the government may have been closing in

0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:37.920
<v Speaker 1>on them, and then boarded a plane to travel overseas,

0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:41.200
<v Speaker 1>that could be some indication of consciousness of guilt. House

0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:46.760
<v Speaker 1>Democrats have subpoenaed the two associates for their communications with Giuliani,

0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:50.519
<v Speaker 1>and they've also subpoenaed Giuliani for his communications with them,

0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:53.480
<v Speaker 1>among other things. Are there any grounds for them to

0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:57.560
<v Speaker 1>oppose handing over the documents. Well, the two individuals that

0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:00.000
<v Speaker 1>have now been indicted are unlikely to cooperate with any

0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:04.480
<v Speaker 1>congressional investigations, are now facing federal criminal charges, and they

0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:07.680
<v Speaker 1>will undoubtedly assert their Fifth Amendment right and perhaps also

0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:12.280
<v Speaker 1>a certifistmen or right against turning over any documents. Rudy Giuliani,

0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:14.160
<v Speaker 1>on the other hand, is in a different situation. He's

0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:17.360
<v Speaker 1>obviously not being charged with any criminal offense. Here is

0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.120
<v Speaker 1>not directly related to any of the criminal charges that

0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:22.840
<v Speaker 1>have been filed against these individuals. But on the other hand,

0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.160
<v Speaker 1>he is a central witness in this criminal case, so

0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:29.280
<v Speaker 1>any testimony that he would give before Congress would certainly

0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.160
<v Speaker 1>involve these allegations. And he's in a bit of a

0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.200
<v Speaker 1>box here because he has to decide whether to be

0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:39.040
<v Speaker 1>forthcoming and completely cooperate with Congressional investigators, which could potentially

0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:41.960
<v Speaker 1>imperil him in a criminal case, or whether to decide

0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:46.280
<v Speaker 1>to refuse to cooperate. Bob, he said so much already,

0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:49.760
<v Speaker 1>and a lot of it contradictory. So is the difference

0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.520
<v Speaker 1>here that he would be testifying under oath and not

0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:56.120
<v Speaker 1>just talking to a news host. I think the difference

0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:59.760
<v Speaker 1>here is that he is now, while not charged himself

0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:02.520
<v Speaker 1>with any criminal wrongdoing, he is just a little bit

0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:06.760
<v Speaker 1>closer to individuals who have been charged. Giuliani has acknowledged

0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:09.040
<v Speaker 1>that these two individuals who have been charged in this

0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:13.080
<v Speaker 1>election interference case worked with him as he attempted to

0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:16.600
<v Speaker 1>try to get the Ukrainian government to investigate the bidens,

0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.400
<v Speaker 1>So they are linked with him in a way that

0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:22.599
<v Speaker 1>puts him in greater peril where he decided to testify

0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:27.040
<v Speaker 1>freely before Congress. In most cases like this, the two

0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:30.520
<v Speaker 1>men are facing prison time, you'd expect that they would

0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:34.719
<v Speaker 1>make a deal with prosecutors give information on someone higher

0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:38.920
<v Speaker 1>up the chain in exchange for leniency. How much pressure

0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:43.000
<v Speaker 1>will they be under to flip and give information, perhaps

0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:46.000
<v Speaker 1>on Giuliani. Well, like any defendants who have been charged

0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:48.760
<v Speaker 1>with a federal crime and our fasting significant jail time,

0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:51.919
<v Speaker 1>one way out of their troubles is to decide to

0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:56.240
<v Speaker 1>join the government's team and cooperate. That could essentially buy

0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:59.240
<v Speaker 1>their way out of jail. It really depends on the individuals,

0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.800
<v Speaker 1>how much j time they're facing, and whether or not

0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:03.920
<v Speaker 1>they're willing to roll the dice and take their case

0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.400
<v Speaker 1>to trial, knowing that if they lose, they'll wind up

0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:09.760
<v Speaker 1>in jail for months and perhaps in even years. The

0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:13.360
<v Speaker 1>U S attorney in Manhattan said, the investigation is ongoing,

0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:17.000
<v Speaker 1>and it's the SDN wise Public Corruption Unit that's involved

0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:19.840
<v Speaker 1>in the investigation. That's the same unit of prosecutors that

0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:23.640
<v Speaker 1>handle the case against Michael Cohen, President Trump's former personal lawyer.

0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:26.839
<v Speaker 1>What does that tell you, Well, any case that involves

0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:31.040
<v Speaker 1>potential election interference is going to typically be prosecuted by

0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:33.359
<v Speaker 1>the Public Corruption Unit in the U. S. Attorney's Office.

0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.080
<v Speaker 1>But we also know that Michael Cohen has cooperated with

0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:38.880
<v Speaker 1>the Manhattan District Attorney's office and is apparently eager to

0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:43.320
<v Speaker 1>continue to cooperate, so there's a possibility that his cooperation

0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.440
<v Speaker 1>played some role in this investigation. We know that he

0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:48.599
<v Speaker 1>had some ties to the Ukraine, so that's really an

0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.360
<v Speaker 1>unanswered question, but we may learn more about that as

0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:57.200
<v Speaker 1>this case unfolds. So Giuliani is being scrutinized by federal

0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:01.120
<v Speaker 1>investigators for his financial dealings a core to Bloomberg sources,

0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.279
<v Speaker 1>this is a man who made his reputation as a

0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:09.240
<v Speaker 1>crusading prosecutor who took down dirty financiers and organized crime

0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:12.000
<v Speaker 1>when he himself was the U. S. Attorney in Manhattan.

0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:17.120
<v Speaker 1>Wouldn't he know enough to avoid the pitfalls? And that's

0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:21.120
<v Speaker 1>a great question. Certainly. People who have followed Rudy Giuliani's

0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:25.880
<v Speaker 1>career have seen a stark contrast between the way he

0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:27.839
<v Speaker 1>conducted himself as a U. S. Attorney and as the

0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:29.760
<v Speaker 1>mayor of the City of New York and the way

0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:33.080
<v Speaker 1>he has conducted himself more recently, both in terms of

0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:37.600
<v Speaker 1>his business dealings with Ukraine and his representation of the president.

0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:41.040
<v Speaker 1>It's really hard to square the two um and it's

0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.040
<v Speaker 1>hard to know what's going on inside Rudy Giuliani's mind,

0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.159
<v Speaker 1>but he certainly has to be giving serious thought to

0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:51.080
<v Speaker 1>the fact that he is being drawn into this criminal investigation.

0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:54.040
<v Speaker 1>And it also raises the interesting question of whether or

0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:57.400
<v Speaker 1>not Giuliani can continue to act as an attorney for

0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:00.440
<v Speaker 1>the president now that he is at least a witness

0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:05.239
<v Speaker 1>in this federal criminal prosecution. Is Giuliani more like Michael Cohen,

0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:10.480
<v Speaker 1>who flipped on President Trump, or more like former presidential

0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:14.600
<v Speaker 1>aid g. Gordon Liddy, who refused to flip on President Nixon.

0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.520
<v Speaker 1>That's a very difficult question. But so far, Rudy Giuliani

0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:22.120
<v Speaker 1>has displayed complete loyalty to the President and has been

0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:25.600
<v Speaker 1>one of his most vigorous advocates at every stage of

0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:29.160
<v Speaker 1>the process, both during the campaign, during the Muller investigation,

0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:32.280
<v Speaker 1>and now during this impeachment inquiry. So I think it

0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:36.080
<v Speaker 1>would be very surprising to see him alter his position

0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:38.480
<v Speaker 1>from that role, and I think will continue to see

0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:41.360
<v Speaker 1>him defending the president. The only question now is will

0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:43.560
<v Speaker 1>he also have to be defending his own actions. Thanks

0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:46.320
<v Speaker 1>for being on Bloomberg Law, Bob. That's Robert Man's a

0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:49.800
<v Speaker 1>partner McCarter in English. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg

0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:53.000
<v Speaker 1>Law podcast. You can subscribe and listen to the show

0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:57.760
<v Speaker 1>on Apple podcast, SoundCloud, and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast.

0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:06.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm June Brosso. This is Bloomberg m