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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Another dramatic twist

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Speaker 1: to the impeachment inquiry, putting Rudy Giuliani closer to the

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Speaker 1: center of that inquiry into whether President Trump wrongly pressured

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Speaker 1: the Ukrainian government to investigate his political rival while withholding

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Speaker 1: aid to the country. Two of Giuliani's associates have been

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Speaker 1: indicted on campaign finance charges for criminal charges including conspiracy,

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Speaker 1: falsifying records, and lying to the Federal Election Commission. Joining

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Speaker 1: me as former federal prosecutor Robert Mintz, head of the

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Speaker 1: white collar practice at McCarter in English. So people often

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Speaker 1: here campaign finance charges and dismiss them as something that's

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Speaker 1: not that serious. Just how serious are these charges? Well,

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Speaker 1: these are very serious charges, and they carry potential lengthy

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Speaker 1: prison sentences if somebody is convicted. And essentially what federal

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Speaker 1: law prohibits here are foreign campaign contributions to American politicians

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Speaker 1: at any level of government, and the idea behind this

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Speaker 1: is simply that we don't want foreign governments to be

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Speaker 1: interfering in our electoral process, whether that's on the state

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Speaker 1: or federal level. These two men were arrested at the

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Speaker 1: airport as they were about to board a flight to

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Speaker 1: Germany with one way plane tickets. That's something that juries

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Speaker 1: can really latch onto. Here. What we had was what's

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Speaker 1: called a sealed indictment. That means that these individuals a

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Speaker 1: four individuals charged in this case had already been indicted

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Speaker 1: by a federal grand jury, and the U. S. Attorney's

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Speaker 1: Office simply had not unsealed that indictment. What they did was,

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Speaker 1: as soon as they found out that these two individuals

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Speaker 1: were about to board a plane to leave the country

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Speaker 1: and had one way tickets, they went out and arrested

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Speaker 1: them immediately because there was certainly a chance that they

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Speaker 1: would go to a country where extradition would be difficult

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Speaker 1: or perhaps impossible, and then it would be almost impossible

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Speaker 1: to ultimately bring these two individuals to justice. So would

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Speaker 1: jury draw an adverse inference from that that they were

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Speaker 1: had one weight plane tickets, Well, it really depends on

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Speaker 1: the circumstances. Of their departure. If they could, for example,

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Speaker 1: point to the fact that they were traveling overseas for

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Speaker 1: some legitimate business reason, or that they had traveled overseas

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Speaker 1: on a routine basis, it might not appear as necessarious.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, if prosecutors can point to the

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Speaker 1: fact that these individuals had gotten wind of these charges

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Speaker 1: or knew that the government may have been closing in

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Speaker 1: on them, and then boarded a plane to travel overseas,

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Speaker 1: that could be some indication of consciousness of guilt. House

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Speaker 1: Democrats have subpoenaed the two associates for their communications with Giuliani,

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Speaker 1: and they've also subpoenaed Giuliani for his communications with them,

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Speaker 1: among other things. Are there any grounds for them to

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Speaker 1: oppose handing over the documents. Well, the two individuals that

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Speaker 1: have now been indicted are unlikely to cooperate with any

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Speaker 1: congressional investigations, are now facing federal criminal charges, and they

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Speaker 1: will undoubtedly assert their Fifth Amendment right and perhaps also

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Speaker 1: a certifistmen or right against turning over any documents. Rudy Giuliani,

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, is in a different situation. He's

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Speaker 1: obviously not being charged with any criminal offense. Here is

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Speaker 1: not directly related to any of the criminal charges that

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Speaker 1: have been filed against these individuals. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: he is a central witness in this criminal case, so

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Speaker 1: any testimony that he would give before Congress would certainly

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Speaker 1: involve these allegations. And he's in a bit of a

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Speaker 1: box here because he has to decide whether to be

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Speaker 1: forthcoming and completely cooperate with Congressional investigators, which could potentially

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Speaker 1: imperil him in a criminal case, or whether to decide

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Speaker 1: to refuse to cooperate. Bob, he said so much already,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of it contradictory. So is the difference

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Speaker 1: here that he would be testifying under oath and not

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Speaker 1: just talking to a news host. I think the difference

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Speaker 1: here is that he is now, while not charged himself

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Speaker 1: with any criminal wrongdoing, he is just a little bit

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Speaker 1: closer to individuals who have been charged. Giuliani has acknowledged

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Speaker 1: that these two individuals who have been charged in this

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Speaker 1: election interference case worked with him as he attempted to

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Speaker 1: try to get the Ukrainian government to investigate the bidens,

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Speaker 1: So they are linked with him in a way that

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Speaker 1: puts him in greater peril where he decided to testify

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Speaker 1: freely before Congress. In most cases like this, the two

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Speaker 1: men are facing prison time, you'd expect that they would

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Speaker 1: make a deal with prosecutors give information on someone higher

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Speaker 1: up the chain in exchange for leniency. How much pressure

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Speaker 1: will they be under to flip and give information, perhaps

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Speaker 1: on Giuliani. Well, like any defendants who have been charged

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Speaker 1: with a federal crime and our fasting significant jail time,

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Speaker 1: one way out of their troubles is to decide to

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Speaker 1: join the government's team and cooperate. That could essentially buy

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Speaker 1: their way out of jail. It really depends on the individuals,

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Speaker 1: how much j time they're facing, and whether or not

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Speaker 1: they're willing to roll the dice and take their case

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Speaker 1: to trial, knowing that if they lose, they'll wind up

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Speaker 1: in jail for months and perhaps in even years. The

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Speaker 1: U S attorney in Manhattan said, the investigation is ongoing,

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Speaker 1: and it's the SDN wise Public Corruption Unit that's involved

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Speaker 1: in the investigation. That's the same unit of prosecutors that

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Speaker 1: handle the case against Michael Cohen, President Trump's former personal lawyer.

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Speaker 1: What does that tell you, Well, any case that involves

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Speaker 1: potential election interference is going to typically be prosecuted by

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Speaker 1: the Public Corruption Unit in the U. S. Attorney's Office.

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Speaker 1: But we also know that Michael Cohen has cooperated with

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Speaker 1: the Manhattan District Attorney's office and is apparently eager to

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Speaker 1: continue to cooperate, so there's a possibility that his cooperation

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Speaker 1: played some role in this investigation. We know that he

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Speaker 1: had some ties to the Ukraine, so that's really an

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Speaker 1: unanswered question, but we may learn more about that as

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Speaker 1: this case unfolds. So Giuliani is being scrutinized by federal

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Speaker 1: investigators for his financial dealings a core to Bloomberg sources,

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Speaker 1: this is a man who made his reputation as a

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Speaker 1: crusading prosecutor who took down dirty financiers and organized crime

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Speaker 1: when he himself was the U. S. Attorney in Manhattan.

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Speaker 1: Wouldn't he know enough to avoid the pitfalls? And that's

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Speaker 1: a great question. Certainly. People who have followed Rudy Giuliani's

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Speaker 1: career have seen a stark contrast between the way he

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Speaker 1: conducted himself as a U. S. Attorney and as the

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Speaker 1: mayor of the City of New York and the way

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Speaker 1: he has conducted himself more recently, both in terms of

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Speaker 1: his business dealings with Ukraine and his representation of the president.

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Speaker 1: It's really hard to square the two um and it's

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Speaker 1: hard to know what's going on inside Rudy Giuliani's mind,

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Speaker 1: but he certainly has to be giving serious thought to

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Speaker 1: the fact that he is being drawn into this criminal investigation.

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Speaker 1: And it also raises the interesting question of whether or

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Speaker 1: not Giuliani can continue to act as an attorney for

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Speaker 1: the president now that he is at least a witness

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Speaker 1: in this federal criminal prosecution. Is Giuliani more like Michael Cohen,

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Speaker 1: who flipped on President Trump, or more like former presidential

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Speaker 1: aid g. Gordon Liddy, who refused to flip on President Nixon.

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Speaker 1: That's a very difficult question. But so far, Rudy Giuliani

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Speaker 1: has displayed complete loyalty to the President and has been

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Speaker 1: one of his most vigorous advocates at every stage of

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Speaker 1: the process, both during the campaign, during the Muller investigation,

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Speaker 1: and now during this impeachment inquiry. So I think it

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Speaker 1: would be very surprising to see him alter his position

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Speaker 1: from that role, and I think will continue to see

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Speaker 1: him defending the president. The only question now is will

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Speaker 1: he also have to be defending his own actions. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for being on Bloomberg Law, Bob. That's Robert Man's a

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Speaker 1: partner McCarter in English. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Law podcast. You can subscribe and listen to the show

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Speaker 1: on Apple podcast, SoundCloud, and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm June Brosso. This is Bloomberg m