1
00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:21,920
Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I love music. I guess

2
00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:26,400
Speaker 1: that's a common statement, common sentiment. I like sappy songs.

3
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:30,200
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll even find myself along with my wife singing

4
00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,400
Speaker 1: tunes created by Abbah, believe it or not for fun.

5
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,360
Speaker 1: But you know that there's kind of a thread that

6
00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,279
Speaker 1: runs through a lot of old sappy songs. And one

7
00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,600
Speaker 1: of the main themes is broken heartedness. And I've often wondered,

8
00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,360
Speaker 1: because people have asked me as a death investigator, can

9
00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,960
Speaker 1: people actually die of a broken heart? And I don't

10
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,840
Speaker 1: mean a mechanical breakdown of the heart. I mean just

11
00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,560
Speaker 1: die from grief, die from worry, die from a pain

12
00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,680
Speaker 1: that has been inflicted upon them. Is that possible? We

13
00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,720
Speaker 1: all have our own stories about this, But today we're

14
00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:12,039
Speaker 1: gonna talk about a case involving a perpetrator who did

15
00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,760
Speaker 1: brutally kill a young woman, but in a confession that

16
00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,720
Speaker 1: he made, he actually believes that the news of this

17
00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,920
Speaker 1: brutal homicide, which he broke to his father, led to

18
00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:27,559
Speaker 1: his father's death, possibly death by broken heart. On Bodybags

19
00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,200
Speaker 1: today we're going to be talking about the sad end

20
00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,960
Speaker 1: of Carol Nicholas. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is

21
00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:42,399
Speaker 1: body Bags, David. I think that we're all beset by

22
00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,479
Speaker 1: grief one way or another. We carried around like baggage

23
00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,640
Speaker 1: throughout our life, all these things that occur that we're

24
00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,920
Speaker 1: subjected to, I think emotionally throughout our life, we do

25
00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,160
Speaker 1: carry it around like baggage, and everybody says, hey, you

26
00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 1: got to put that down and move on with your life.

27
00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,120
Speaker 1: That's a lot easier said than done, though, isn't it.

28
00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,520
Speaker 2: I think all of us deal with grief differently. Some

29
00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,480
Speaker 2: of us look straight ahead and say death is a

30
00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:12,359
Speaker 2: part of life. Grief and happiness, they coexist. We're born

31
00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,920
Speaker 2: to die all those types of things from the intellectual side,

32
00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,680
Speaker 2: but our heart, where we love, we feel, we empathize

33
00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:24,320
Speaker 2: and sympathize all those things when somebody passes that. Even

34
00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,799
Speaker 2: though we know it's a reality, it's tough. I believe

35
00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,200
Speaker 2: maybe it's something I want to believe that we have

36
00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,040
Speaker 2: such a depth of human emotion that one could die

37
00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,160
Speaker 2: from a broken heart. I don't know if it's true

38
00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,920
Speaker 2: or not. Probably never figured it out physically, but I

39
00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,919
Speaker 2: do know that grief can cause people to not want

40
00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,239
Speaker 2: to experience life because of their grief. They can't smile,

41
00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,200
Speaker 2: they can't laugh. If they do, they feel guilty because

42
00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,359
Speaker 2: of their loved one not being there to share it

43
00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:50,880
Speaker 2: with them.

44
00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, as an extension, I think that when it comes

45
00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,440
Speaker 1: to a child, if a child, and I can't even

46
00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,560
Speaker 1: begin to put myself in the shoes of a parent

47
00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:04,440
Speaker 1: who listens to perhaps the confession of a child who

48
00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:10,200
Speaker 1: admittedly states that they killed another human being, and you

49
00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,680
Speaker 1: confess that to a parent is burying that burden. I

50
00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,720
Speaker 1: can't even imagine what kind of effect that might have

51
00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,400
Speaker 1: on that parent's well being because you've raised the child,

52
00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,680
Speaker 1: You've got them to adulthood, and suddenly, in the case

53
00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,720
Speaker 1: certainly of Karen Nichols, she's the homicide victim that we're

54
00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:34,560
Speaker 1: discussing today. When this killer, Joel Hollandorfer admits to his

55
00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,920
Speaker 1: father that he has literally choked the life out of

56
00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,280
Speaker 1: a young woman, I don't know that it's the same

57
00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,320
Speaker 1: as driving a knife through his dad's heart, But I've

58
00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,960
Speaker 1: got to tell you, man, I cannot even begin to

59
00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,280
Speaker 1: fathom the depth of grief that you would have over

60
00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:51,040
Speaker 1: that as a parent.

61
00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:55,680
Speaker 2: In this particular case where we're talking about a beautiful

62
00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,280
Speaker 2: nineteen year old girl with a family that loved her friends,

63
00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,240
Speaker 2: and and a man who tells his own parents that

64
00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,640
Speaker 2: he ended her life. I could see how that would

65
00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,320
Speaker 2: drive a stake into your father's heart, because we all

66
00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,360
Speaker 2: want the best for our children, We want to think

67
00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,200
Speaker 2: the best. But to hear that your child has just

68
00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,200
Speaker 2: done every by the way, regardless of age, your child

69
00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,159
Speaker 2: is always your child. Holland Dorf. For a grown man

70
00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,320
Speaker 2: admitting to his parents that he has done the most

71
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,440
Speaker 2: heinous thing you can do, you can't get any worse

72
00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,480
Speaker 2: than this. There is nothing both. There's no deeper surface

73
00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:33,680
Speaker 2: to scratch than I killed. I took the life of

74
00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,840
Speaker 2: another human being, and I did it with my own

75
00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:37,760
Speaker 2: bare hands.

76
00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:42,440
Speaker 1: When you consider the fact that not only did he

77
00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:48,000
Speaker 1: confess to his parents and to his former wife that

78
00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,719
Speaker 1: he did this, but then, on top of that, to

79
00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:56,080
Speaker 1: let your dad know perhaps that this young woman, her remains,

80
00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,840
Speaker 1: all that remains of her, were actually discarded on your

81
00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:03,480
Speaker 1: own on property, the father's on property. I think that again,

82
00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,440
Speaker 1: that's another blow to this to this parent and the

83
00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,719
Speaker 1: family in total, because they're always burying this burden, and

84
00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,320
Speaker 1: to know that their son is out there walking around.

85
00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,960
Speaker 1: I would think that after being told this, the son

86
00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,760
Speaker 1: actually is out there in the public for years afterwards,

87
00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,960
Speaker 1: and you can only imagine in the light of this information,

88
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,560
Speaker 1: how in the world can you sleep at night thinking that, well,

89
00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,839
Speaker 1: is he going to kill again? And here's the big

90
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,560
Speaker 1: worry for me when you actually kind of play this

91
00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,440
Speaker 1: out in your mind and you know, if you've been

92
00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,599
Speaker 1: told this, that there is a family out there, Dave,

93
00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,120
Speaker 1: who loves someone and they're missing them. How is it

94
00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,000
Speaker 1: that you keep this information to yourself? How is it

95
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,320
Speaker 1: that you don't say you need to go to the authorities,

96
00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,520
Speaker 1: let them know what you have done, or I'm going

97
00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,800
Speaker 1: to go. I just don't know, but I do know this.

98
00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:01,880
Speaker 1: The last time that miss Nichols Kara was actually seen alive,

99
00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:07,640
Speaker 1: her remains were not recovered for many years after the fact,

100
00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,680
Speaker 1: and she's got a family that's grieving.

101
00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,560
Speaker 2: Over her loss. Joe, I'm curious as to how much

102
00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,919
Speaker 2: blame a person's shoulders when they don't tell the police

103
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,360
Speaker 2: something they know. I mean, you've got missing posters of

104
00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,919
Speaker 2: Karen Nichols. Her family is looking for her again, Posters

105
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,200
Speaker 2: are up, flyers are done Facebook pages. I mean, the

106
00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,320
Speaker 2: whole nine people are looking for Karen Nichols. They don't

107
00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,800
Speaker 2: know where she is. What we do know is on

108
00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,560
Speaker 2: October the ninth, Karen Nichols was on her phone. She

109
00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,000
Speaker 2: was an aspiring model, She did work as an escort.

110
00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,400
Speaker 2: I want to say that in such a way that

111
00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,320
Speaker 2: it doesn't diminish the life. Getting sick and tired of

112
00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,200
Speaker 2: people judging people for what they do, because nobody deserves

113
00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,520
Speaker 2: to be killed for no reason. In this particular case,

114
00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,440
Speaker 2: Karen Nichols talked to her brother every day. They were

115
00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,880
Speaker 2: very close. When I say they talk every day, I

116
00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,120
Speaker 2: mean they talked every day. He was on the phone

117
00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,880
Speaker 2: with her that night of October the ninth, and when

118
00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,440
Speaker 2: he called her back on October the tenth, he didn't

119
00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:08,400
Speaker 2: get her. The reason that was such a big deal

120
00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,240
Speaker 2: is because they talked every day, Joe and so her

121
00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:16,800
Speaker 2: brother immediately, very quickly, was alarmed at this. He didn't

122
00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,160
Speaker 2: waste any time. He went to her apartment. He talked

123
00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,920
Speaker 2: to her roommates, Hey, where'd she go? They said, She's

124
00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,960
Speaker 2: gone to Denver on a modeling thing. And her brother

125
00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,680
Speaker 2: looked in her room and he found her laptop, her

126
00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,560
Speaker 2: phone charger, He found personal effects that she would have

127
00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,800
Speaker 2: taken if that's where she went. But they were still

128
00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,080
Speaker 2: right there next to her bed. So that's what the

129
00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,000
Speaker 2: when I said they were close, close enough that in

130
00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,120
Speaker 2: less than twenty four hours, brother is saying she's missing.

131
00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,480
Speaker 2: I only hope my children have that relationship with their siblings.

132
00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,440
Speaker 2: That's something that to me is very unique and different.

133
00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:51,720
Speaker 2: I don't have that with mine.

134
00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,760
Speaker 1: No, I don't either, and not much more than beyond

135
00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,280
Speaker 1: that with extended family members. If I went missing, for

136
00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,440
Speaker 1: certain faithamily members that were like, oh yeah, I think

137
00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,760
Speaker 1: I saw him maybe five years ago, or maybe I

138
00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,600
Speaker 1: talked to him at some kind of family get together

139
00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,560
Speaker 1: or something like that. And here we have the brother

140
00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:11,880
Speaker 1: and he's just the tip of the iceberg when it

141
00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,240
Speaker 1: comes to this family. He's grieving this and there's a

142
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,200
Speaker 1: lot of I don't know if survivor guilt is one

143
00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,600
Speaker 1: of the things that comes into play here, But when

144
00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,600
Speaker 1: you think about she is constantly checking in with him

145
00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,040
Speaker 1: every single day, and it's not so much a check

146
00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:31,120
Speaker 1: in as it is they're just conversing. Perhaps. Granted, Kara

147
00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,440
Speaker 1: had some issues in her life. She had an issue

148
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,080
Speaker 1: with heroin. The thing about it is, if you're trying

149
00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,040
Speaker 1: to make a living or trying to get by in

150
00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,280
Speaker 1: the world, and you have an addiction issue in addition

151
00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,120
Speaker 1: to some of the people, the faceless people that you

152
00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,320
Speaker 1: run into in the sex industry. It is absolutely a

153
00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,439
Speaker 1: recipe for disaster, and it certainly was in Kara's case.

154
00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,199
Speaker 1: Full disclosure here, Dave, I have to say to our

155
00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,960
Speaker 1: listeners that this, in fact is a cold case that

156
00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:23,680
Speaker 1: has been solved. Now, I don't cover a lot of

157
00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,920
Speaker 1: cold cases because I've been involved in cold case investigations

158
00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,040
Speaker 1: and unlike my buddy Cheryl McCollum who has the Zone

159
00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:36,720
Speaker 1: seven podcast, cold cases are not necessarily my forte. But

160
00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:42,280
Speaker 1: this case is evidence that hard work and sticktuitiveness, particularly

161
00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,120
Speaker 1: in this case, let you know that they can be solved.

162
00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,839
Speaker 1: Even after all these years, you can bring some kind

163
00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,000
Speaker 1: of ending to the physical case. Now that doesn't mean

164
00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:53,720
Speaker 1: that grief is ever going to end, but you have

165
00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:55,560
Speaker 1: answers at least at the end of the day. In

166
00:09:55,559 --> 00:10:01,360
Speaker 1: this case, cellular data and the connectivity that Kiara had

167
00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,760
Speaker 1: with people in her life really came into play in

168
00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:04,280
Speaker 1: this case.

169
00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,680
Speaker 2: Joe, I was glad you mentioned Mac. You know, when

170
00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:09,760
Speaker 2: we were at crime Con, I had the opportunity be

171
00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:11,880
Speaker 2: right next to her in our booth while you were

172
00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,720
Speaker 2: doing some incredible stuff during crime Con. I had a

173
00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,120
Speaker 2: chance to meet a lot of folks, a lot of

174
00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,560
Speaker 2: Max folks and a lot of ours. And what a

175
00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,680
Speaker 2: blessing that she is to so many people where she's

176
00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,160
Speaker 2: working on cold cases. Think about this here with Kara Nichols.

177
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,240
Speaker 2: She goes missing October ninth, twenty twelve. The last person

178
00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,240
Speaker 2: talked to her as her brother, Terry that we know of,

179
00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,720
Speaker 2: and on October tenth, he's already worried. Now she was

180
00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,079
Speaker 2: reported missing a couple of days later, but they were

181
00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,400
Speaker 2: already looking for her. That's what I again, I find

182
00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,520
Speaker 2: that not just amazing, but it shows a lot about

183
00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,880
Speaker 2: the family. Where the brother had been on the phone

184
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,120
Speaker 2: with her the night on October the ninth, at about

185
00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,160
Speaker 2: eleven forty five pm, and then the next day doesn't

186
00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,280
Speaker 2: ring her up, so he goes to the apartment and

187
00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,560
Speaker 2: he immediately is pushing this, we got to report missing,

188
00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,200
Speaker 2: and that's what her dad did. Paul Nichols reported her

189
00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,440
Speaker 2: missing on the fourteenth very quickly. Joe, You've mentioned this

190
00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,720
Speaker 2: a couple of times. Oftentimes people say they have to

191
00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,600
Speaker 2: wait a certain number of hours or days before reporting

192
00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,480
Speaker 2: an adult missing. That's not always the truth, right.

193
00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,040
Speaker 1: No, it's not, And that's not necessarily written in stone anywhere.

194
00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,880
Speaker 1: I think that that is. It's something that is stated

195
00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,000
Speaker 1: relative to the department. A lot of it has to

196
00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,000
Speaker 1: do with the size of the department that you're dealing

197
00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:32,160
Speaker 1: with a really big city. They very well might and

198
00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,760
Speaker 1: I think some bureaucracy plays into this. They very well

199
00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,280
Speaker 1: might say, well, come back and see us in a

200
00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,280
Speaker 1: couple of days or a couple of weeks there. And

201
00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,079
Speaker 1: they always give you a line about, well, they're an adult,

202
00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:46,880
Speaker 1: they can make these decisions all these sorts of things.

203
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,640
Speaker 1: And granted Kara was an adult, but she was very

204
00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,080
Speaker 1: young adult. She was in her late teens, and yeah,

205
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,000
Speaker 1: she's she's emancipated at that point, Tom, she can make

206
00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,720
Speaker 1: her own decisions. But you've got a family that's involved

207
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,920
Speaker 1: in this, and they know what's going on in Kara's

208
00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,600
Speaker 1: life at this particular time, and I can imagine that

209
00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,080
Speaker 1: they're worried. The brother in particular, probably knew that she

210
00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,240
Speaker 1: had some issues that she was dealing with, and so

211
00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,200
Speaker 1: you can imagine the fervor that he might have at

212
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:17,960
Speaker 1: that point in time. We've got to find her, and

213
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,160
Speaker 1: time is ticking off the clock. And that makes it

214
00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,160
Speaker 1: all the more poignant, Dave, because he knew this all

215
00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,680
Speaker 1: the way back, all the way back, all those years

216
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,959
Speaker 1: ago in twenty twelve, and here we sit and this

217
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,560
Speaker 1: case has just finished being adjudicated.

218
00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,560
Speaker 2: And that's where as we were talking about, like from

219
00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,880
Speaker 2: a timeline standpoint, October ninth, on the night of October ninth,

220
00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,560
Speaker 2: that's the last communication we have with Kara, her brother

221
00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,720
Speaker 2: Terry eleven forty five. Now we do know she talked

222
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,680
Speaker 2: to somebody else between eleven forty five and eleven fifty eight,

223
00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,040
Speaker 2: but her brother Terry was the one that really pushed

224
00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,280
Speaker 2: this forward. And as you mentioned, something that's gone on

225
00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,560
Speaker 2: for over ten years and just has been adjudicated. I

226
00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,520
Speaker 2: just cannot imagine the heart and soul of this man,

227
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,400
Speaker 2: of her brother Terry. So he goes to the apartment,

228
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,960
Speaker 2: he talks to the roommates and finds out, by the way,

229
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,640
Speaker 2: this is October the eleventh when he actually talks and

230
00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,000
Speaker 2: basically does an interview on the roommates, and he finds

231
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,200
Speaker 2: out that Kara left the night of October ninth and

232
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,080
Speaker 2: they haven't seen her since. She has not been back

233
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,960
Speaker 2: to the place. Since then he calls dad. That's when

234
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,000
Speaker 2: they start looking as a family, get the police involved,

235
00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,760
Speaker 2: and here we go. Quickly, they're starting to put things together.

236
00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,640
Speaker 2: Police immediately start looking at the call numbers, who called

237
00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,960
Speaker 2: her phone, who is she talking to, who is she

238
00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:40,240
Speaker 2: texting with? Because again we know that she you mentioned

239
00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,960
Speaker 2: heroin and escort, and she did some of these things

240
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,560
Speaker 2: that are considered high risk. They were concerned. So when

241
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,960
Speaker 2: they start looking at her cell phone, they're pulling up

242
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,679
Speaker 2: all the numbers and they find there's one number that

243
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,120
Speaker 2: night that called her eight or that she was communicating

244
00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:00,480
Speaker 2: with eight different times, eight different times with one phone number.

245
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,440
Speaker 2: So if you can imagine, this takes months to go through.

246
00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,360
Speaker 2: I thought it happened like right away, Joe. It didn't

247
00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,480
Speaker 2: because it took time. Because you go from the standpoint

248
00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,680
Speaker 2: of the nineteen year old, the young adult. Yes, a teenager,

249
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,199
Speaker 2: but this is not a nineteen year old just out

250
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,559
Speaker 2: of high school, first semester of college, living at home

251
00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,040
Speaker 2: with mom and dad. This is a nineteen year old

252
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,280
Speaker 2: who's a bit worldly, is living on her own, has roommates,

253
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,440
Speaker 2: she's living as an adult, so she has the right

254
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,840
Speaker 2: to do whatever she wants, so they cannot have a

255
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,840
Speaker 2: come apart at the police station just because a family

256
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,480
Speaker 2: member can't get up with their sister or their daughter. Again,

257
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,920
Speaker 2: she's an adult. But they did look into it. It

258
00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,920
Speaker 2: was when they signed a detective in I think February

259
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,520
Speaker 2: of the next year that they started really looking into

260
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,480
Speaker 2: this because by then she hadn't been seen in a

261
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,720
Speaker 2: number of months, had missed all the holidays, and now

262
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:53,840
Speaker 2: they were really getting into this. And they were able

263
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,440
Speaker 2: to identify that person who continue to call because they

264
00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,280
Speaker 2: called the number they called, you know, they got a

265
00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,760
Speaker 2: number on your eighte times on her cellphone. They called it,

266
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,600
Speaker 2: and the person that answered it Joel Hollendorffer. Yeah.

267
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,800
Speaker 1: And here's the thing. When they were able to go

268
00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,320
Speaker 1: back and track the data on the phone, they could

269
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:16,720
Speaker 1: see the actual movements of Kara on her phone, the

270
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,840
Speaker 1: actual route that she had traveled that night, which is

271
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,680
Speaker 1: pretty amazing. And keep in mind, this is back in

272
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:27,760
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, and so the technology was not necessarily at

273
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,320
Speaker 1: the level that it's at now as far as tracking data,

274
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,640
Speaker 1: but it was sufficient to the task back then. And

275
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,000
Speaker 1: what are the odds that you're going to have these

276
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,600
Speaker 1: And people laugh when I say this, these electronic breadcrumbs

277
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:45,040
Speaker 1: that lead you specifically back to a suspect in this

278
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:49,520
Speaker 1: particular case, and not only led them back to the suspect,

279
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,960
Speaker 1: but to an actual address that he had lived at

280
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:54,800
Speaker 1: for some time.

281
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,760
Speaker 2: Joe when they were looking at this, the last contact

282
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,440
Speaker 2: with Kara was at eleven fifty nine on October the ninth,

283
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,400
Speaker 2: beginning with the first minute of October ten. She's off

284
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,920
Speaker 2: the grid. I found that fascinating because oftentimes in an

285
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,280
Speaker 2: investigation might have the last time I talked to Joe,

286
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:14,680
Speaker 2: But Joe was reaching out to so and so, and

287
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,120
Speaker 2: there are plenty of other people that had contact after me.

288
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,600
Speaker 2: That's not the case here. She talked to her brother

289
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:21,960
Speaker 2: at eleven forty five, and then we know there was

290
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,360
Speaker 2: contact with Joel Hollandoffer and that was it. And so

291
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,560
Speaker 2: when they actually called it happened. On May eighth of

292
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:33,400
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, Detective Googliatta received a call from a man

293
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,480
Speaker 2: who identified himself as Joel Hollandofferdorffer. I don't know why

294
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,640
Speaker 2: I'm having trouble with that name, and I apologize, but

295
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,120
Speaker 2: it was his number that kept popping up. That's why

296
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,360
Speaker 2: they had been reaching out to him. So when Joel

297
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,560
Speaker 2: Hollendorffer called back, they wanted to talk to him find out.

298
00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,960
Speaker 2: He said, yes, I had contact with her. I was

299
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,200
Speaker 2: trying to meet up with her that night, but we

300
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,640
Speaker 2: never did. And he actually used the term. I'm not

301
00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,880
Speaker 2: familiar with terms that are used, but hollandorfirst was, and

302
00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,400
Speaker 2: he claimed that he never got up with Kara on

303
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,280
Speaker 2: the night of October the ninth, or the morning of

304
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,720
Speaker 2: October the tenth, or at any time since. He said

305
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,240
Speaker 2: he was looking for what is called a quote in call,

306
00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:15,280
Speaker 2: but Kara only did out call. In call means that

307
00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,800
Speaker 2: the client actually goes to the location of the escort.

308
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,679
Speaker 2: An out call is where the escort goes to the

309
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:26,600
Speaker 2: location of the client. So Hollendorffer used that as his

310
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:28,720
Speaker 2: I guess he thought this is his get out of

311
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:30,760
Speaker 2: jail free cards. Well, they'll believe this, and this is

312
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,840
Speaker 2: ending of the end of the story. It wasn't, because

313
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,399
Speaker 2: they now knew they had the last person with contact

314
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,720
Speaker 2: with a nineteen year old woman who was gone, and

315
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,240
Speaker 2: yet not enough information that they could put the screws

316
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,040
Speaker 2: to him. You know, I don't know how investigations truly work.

317
00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,520
Speaker 2: I'm a broadcaster, I followed these things. I reported these things,

318
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,760
Speaker 2: and Joe, as a forensic person, I'm sure you're aware

319
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,760
Speaker 2: of different techniques used by detectives to get information, but

320
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,400
Speaker 2: there is a point in time where they detective really

321
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,560
Speaker 2: can't push any harder because they don't have enough information

322
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:05,600
Speaker 2: or evidence to go on.

323
00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,600
Speaker 1: And particularly when it comes to search warrants, you're going

324
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,439
Speaker 1: to have to have something that's so compelling, So folks

325
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,520
Speaker 1: understand this. With a search warrant, it's not like you

326
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,640
Speaker 1: create the search want of your own volition as an

327
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,879
Speaker 1: investigator and you go and execute it. This thing, you

328
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,040
Speaker 1: write it up, and it has to be perfect when

329
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,040
Speaker 1: you write it up, and it has to be very specific,

330
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,000
Speaker 1: and it has to have specific data points in it.

331
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,479
Speaker 1: I'm looking for this and this at this location, and

332
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,240
Speaker 1: I'll be going into these locations at this address to

333
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,040
Speaker 1: find this information. You have to be very specific because

334
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,640
Speaker 1: if not, you think that some investigator that doesn't have

335
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,000
Speaker 1: the public's best interest at heart could just take this

336
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,800
Speaker 1: real broad spectrum view of the thing and go in

337
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,040
Speaker 1: search anywhere that they want to and use it as

338
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,600
Speaker 1: essentially a carte blanche to dig through your personal spaces.

339
00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,399
Speaker 1: And you're constitutionally protected from that. So in order to

340
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:02,919
Speaker 1: have this thing pass muster, you either have to go

341
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,119
Speaker 1: to a judge or magistrate and they have to prove it.

342
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,040
Speaker 1: They'll look at the search warrant just to see if

343
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,000
Speaker 1: it's valid, but in order to initiate that, you have

344
00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,240
Speaker 1: to have substantial information that's going to bring you back

345
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,760
Speaker 1: to a location. And that actually eventually happened because what

346
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,560
Speaker 1: did occur is that they got a search warrant for

347
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,399
Speaker 1: an address there in El Paso County, Colorado, which was

348
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,359
Speaker 1: at a ninety six sixty five Burgess Road.

349
00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:31,720
Speaker 2: Just to give you guys an idea of how they

350
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,400
Speaker 2: came up with that address. They actually used the cell

351
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,680
Speaker 2: phone data from Kara's phone and identified from eleven sixteen

352
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,920
Speaker 2: PM until the phone stopped working, whether the battery was

353
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,359
Speaker 2: taken out, it was turned off, whatever is stopped communicating

354
00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,520
Speaker 2: with the tower, and these detectives actually followed the route.

355
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:49,960
Speaker 2: You know, we mentioned that she was on the phone

356
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:51,960
Speaker 2: with her brother at eleven forty five, Well, she was

357
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 2: in transit, she was on the road at that time.

358
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,159
Speaker 2: All of these calls and texts were made while she

359
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,040
Speaker 2: was on the road. They were able to track by

360
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,159
Speaker 2: using the self tower and that data and the detectors

361
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,080
Speaker 2: drove the route that she was on that night. This

362
00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 2: is an unbelievable thing to me. But that route led

363
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,520
Speaker 2: them to turn east. The last thing turn east on

364
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:16,000
Speaker 2: Burgess Road, and that's where the address popped up of

365
00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,800
Speaker 2: nine six six 'y five Burges Road. And the big

366
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,960
Speaker 2: reveal here is Remember Joel Hollendorfer said he did not

367
00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,520
Speaker 2: meet up with her that night, But what is that

368
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,200
Speaker 2: address leading to, Joe.

369
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,000
Speaker 1: Well, it's actually leading to a family address, Dave. It's

370
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,560
Speaker 1: adjacent to the property that his parents owned. I think

371
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,480
Speaker 1: that they had bought this property back in nineteen eighty five.

372
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,399
Speaker 1: Here's the really curious thing. There was evidence at that

373
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:50,240
Speaker 1: location that burials had taken place, in the sense that

374
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,360
Speaker 1: there were multiple but it wasn't the burials of human beings.

375
00:20:54,680 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 1: It was actually the burials of horses. We spoke about

376
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,359
Speaker 1: Hollandorfer's father just a few moments ago, but his mother

377
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 1: is also going to come into play in the story, Dave.

378
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 1: Her name was Betty, and Betty still resided on this property.

379
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:35,119
Speaker 1: Joel Hollandorfer's father had actually passed in twenty fourteen, and

380
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 1: that plays into the story from a timeline. We talked

381
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 1: about the grieving dad and how we know that he

382
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 1: has information that, according to the perpetrator in this case,

383
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 1: he confessed this horrible deed to his parents. And can

384
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,720
Speaker 1: you imagine being the mother and then all of a sudden,

385
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,679
Speaker 1: you're swarmed by law enforcement officials that are not just

386
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 1: showing up armed with a warrant, but they're showing up

387
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:07,919
Speaker 1: with cadaver dogs. They're showing up with ground penetrating radar

388
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,159
Speaker 1: in order to go over your property, and they're asking

389
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,159
Speaker 1: you very specific questions about any kind of burials that

390
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 1: are on that property. You know what has occurred out

391
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,440
Speaker 1: there over the years. And Betty, the mother, had revealed

392
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 1: that they had had several family pets, including horses, that

393
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 1: had died and were buried in locations, and in this

394
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,920
Speaker 1: particular case, Joel actually had knowledge of where these burials

395
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 1: had taken place. Unfortunately, you know, the twenty fourteen search

396
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,400
Speaker 1: of this location really turned up nothing. Dave. If you've

397
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 1: got a vast area where you have a large area

398
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 1: where you might have burials, either you have cadaver dogs

399
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 1: who were out there that did not hit on a

400
00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:00,160
Speaker 1: scent in particular, at that moment in time, because maybe

401
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 1: it was too far in the distant past, or maybe

402
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 1: something some element to this that had created a barrier

403
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 1: between the dog's ability to hit on a specific area,

404
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: or they weren't maybe searching as thorough as they should.

405
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 1: You think about this ground penetrating radar that a lot

406
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 1: of people talk about, which is essentially feeding an image

407
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 1: back up to you as you go over it, and

408
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 1: it's a very tedious job in order to use one

409
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,679
Speaker 1: of these things. Just imagine something that looks like a

410
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 1: gigantic lawnmower with a big base on it, and you

411
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 1: have to go very very slowly. It's not like it's

412
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 1: going to go ding ding ding. You've hit a body.

413
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,360
Speaker 1: You have to go over it piece by piece and

414
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 1: then go back and analyze the imagery. If not, you

415
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 1: might as well just go out with a shovel and

416
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: just dig randomly. You have to have specific evidence, and

417
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 1: you have to have somebody that can actually interpret what

418
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: they're seeing. Because I've looked at these the readouts that

419
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 1: come from certainly in earlier generations of ground penetrating, I

420
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: couldn't make heads or tails out of it.

421
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 2: David.

422
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,479
Speaker 1: It's like it might as well be ancient Greek when

423
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: you're looking at this, but for the trained eye, you

424
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 1: can pick up on the little subtleties that are hiding

425
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:14,360
Speaker 1: just beneath the surface.

426
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 2: Now to back up a little bit here, we mentioned

427
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 2: Joel Hollendorfer telling his feeling like he caused his father's

428
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 2: heart attack. It was a very sudden and big heart attack.

429
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 2: And ultimately what we're going to get to here is

430
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 2: that Joel Hollendorfer could not keep to himself what he did.

431
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 2: He took it upon himself to unburden himself to his

432
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 2: mother and father. At which this is a whole new plan.

433
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 2: We need to bring in Nancy Grace to deal with

434
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 2: what's next, because I wonder about the responsibility when somebody

435
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 2: finds out information that is really important and they don't

436
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 2: share it with law enforcement. Because what we are led

437
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 2: to believe here is that Joel Hollendorfer told his mother

438
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 2: and father that he killed a woman, a young woman,

439
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 2: that he killed her. Then we're also led to believe

440
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 2: by his ex wife Christina that the day after his

441
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 2: father's funeral, Joel calls her and says, go for a

442
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 2: ride with me in my new truck. And during that ride,

443
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: he tells his ex wife, Christina. They had an on again,

444
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 2: off again relationship that went on for years, but he

445
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 2: tells her he feels like he's responsible for his father's death,

446
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 2: and then he tells her what he did to Karen

447
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 2: Nichols and Joel, I just want to know, Joe, what

448
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 2: do you do with that information? Is so many years later,

449
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 2: they've already searched the property. Who is responsible to her?

450
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 2: Am I supposed to? I would think you would tell somebody, right.

451
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, you would think so. And for years they were

452
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 1: trying to suss all of the South. They had a

453
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 1: lot of information that they were trying to make heads

454
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 1: or tails of, and the ex wife, whose first name

455
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 1: is Christina, she winds up being found in Virginia all

456
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: the way in twenty twenty two. Now she's kept this

457
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: information locked away for all of these years, and we've

458
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: got this family that is really wanting to know what

459
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: happened to their daughter, their sister, their friend, Karen Nichols,

460
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: And it's buttoned up. What the ex wife Christina revealed

461
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 1: is on that ride in his new truck, he confesses

462
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: to her that he had gone and picked Kara up

463
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 1: in her vehicle they were seated, and he had an

464
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 1: awareness that Kara had a heroin addiction problem. And one

465
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: thing led to another inside of that vehicle, and he

466
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: admitted to choking the life out of her. He throttled

467
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: her there in the car and brought about her death.

468
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: And he admitted at that point in time that after

469
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: he had done that, he needed to do something with

470
00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 1: her remains. And so he takes her remains to his parents'

471
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: property and buries them on the property. And so she's

472
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: kept us tucked away that she has knowledge of this,

473
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: And you begin to think about this from the perspective of, well, yeah,

474
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 1: he may have admitted it to you back then, and

475
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: you thought that he was unburdening himself. But then you

476
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: think about, well, if he's capable of throddling a young girl,

477
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: and she's this tiny little thing that he's picked up,

478
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 1: he found her actually in an ad that she was

479
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: new in town, she's young, she's actually posted a picture

480
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: of herself in lingerie. Are there any others? And so

481
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: does the burden, I think then fall onto the shoulders

482
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,959
Speaker 1: of those that have this knowledge, as he perpetrated anything

483
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: else like this, So that would be something that a

484
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: prosecutor would have to answer, but I do know this.

485
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: He stated that he had disposed of her body. He

486
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: placed her body into a black bag and covered the

487
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: body with lime, which seems counterintuitive because the purpose of

488
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: placing lime on a body is to speed the decompositional process.

489
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 1: And here's the thing. When they went to talk to

490
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: the mother again at the conclusion of this, the mother said, well,

491
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: my favorite horse, we buried her in this particular location.

492
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: You might want to try there. And they went back

493
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 1: and took aerial photographs of the location, this time in

494
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two and kind of mapped out the area

495
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: very specifically so the mother could direct them to that

496
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: location and looking at the map specifically identifying it. And

497
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: part of this is crime scene documentation. If and when

498
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: a case goes to trial, you want to be able

499
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: to go back from a macro sense give the jury

500
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: and the people of the court an idea as to

501
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: the position of evidence. And what better way than if

502
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: you're doing like an aerial shot of a where you

503
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: can point out, okay, well here's the house, here's the barn,

504
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: here are the fences, this is the corral, and this

505
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: is where we bury all of the animals, and then

506
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: that's from a macro of a broad sense, and then

507
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: you begin to kind of we do crime scene photography

508
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: the same way we take from a great distance in

509
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: mid range, and then of course we do microphotography where

510
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,479
Speaker 1: we're kind of tightening up our field of view, and

511
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: this way this is documented all the way along. And

512
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: so they took that data and actually excavated that area

513
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: and they actually found Karras remains there.

514
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,479
Speaker 2: Dave, let me go back to the bag with the

515
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: body and line. I thought line was used as a

516
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 2: way to keep the odor decomposition down, but it actually

517
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 2: is to speed up the process. Does it do that?

518
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it actually does both. It will knock down, allegedly

519
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: knock down the smell to a certain degree. You can

520
00:29:54,920 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 1: never completely diminish the smell. But also it speeds the

521
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: process of decomposition, particularly if the soil, the elements in

522
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,719
Speaker 1: the soil are not conducive to this kind of aerobic

523
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: environment that you need in order to speed along the

524
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: process of decomposition. It enables the otherwise incompatible area that

525
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: the body. Because you don't know, I mean, killers are

526
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: not going out and doing chemical studies of soil where

527
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: they're bearing bodies. Lime has long been known to speed

528
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: up the process. And so what other reason, unless you're

529
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: in farming or gardening are you going to purchase lime?

530
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,479
Speaker 2: I will tell you when I had to buy some

531
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: lime for stuff in the yard, I actually thought, oh,

532
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 2: my goodness, they're going to watch me where I go.

533
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 2: I mean, all I'm thinking is goodfellas.

534
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, I think a lot of people get

535
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: they're informed by what they see in the movies and

536
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. That would have been just no

537
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: pun intended and an ingredient to this mix that he's doing.

538
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 2: But what about Okay, when you've got the body. Now

539
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 2: we know that the body is buried in a bag,

540
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 2: but it's placed in this same grave three feet down

541
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 2: where Betty's favorite horse was buried. Do we not have

542
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 2: a commingling of body parts? We're talking years here.

543
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: Listen to you comingling. I hear you man, very good. Yeah.

544
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: Actually we've talked about commingling. And here's the thing, and

545
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: you mentioned this is more like a it's not a

546
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: surface deposition. We've talked about that on body bags, where

547
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: you just kind of have the body laying on top

548
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: of the ground. There's been an effort made to dig

549
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: down at least three three feet. That's what the crime

550
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: scene revealed at the time. Here's the reality of this.

551
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: You would probably not have commingling at this point in

552
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: time because I don't know if you've ever been on

553
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: a farm. When a large animal is buried, it's an undertaking.

554
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: My grandpa raised horses, and so one of the things

555
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: that would happen would be you would bring in like

556
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: a back ho all right, to dig a grave in

557
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: order to place the animal in. And it has to

558
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: be it's not like digging a human grave. It has

559
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: to be sufficient to the task. The space has to be.

560
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: So once you get that element down into the ground

561
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: that you're trying to bury, you're going to go back

562
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: and backfill that area. Well, it's certainly going to be

563
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: deeper than just merely three feet deep. You're going to

564
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: have to go deep to get the entire corpse of

565
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: a horse down that low. So let's just say that

566
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: they go down seven or eight feet with a backo

567
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: and with a horse, unlike a human, you have to

568
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,239
Speaker 1: Human graves are relatively narrow compared to what you have

569
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: to do with a large animal. So it's going to

570
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: be broad and deep. So you're trenching out this area,

571
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: digging it down, and then they're going to go back

572
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: and they're going to backfill it, probably pack the soil

573
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: on top of it, maybe put other items on top

574
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: of it, and then go back and continue to kind

575
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: of layer this dirt on top. Now, after a period

576
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: of time, this will begin to settle. That's why when

577
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: people see graves, they commonly in the media, they're portrayed

578
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: as like these kind of mounded areas in the earth.

579
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: That gives you an indication if you're watching a movie,

580
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: there's a grave there. Graves many times actually appear as

581
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: depressed areas. You can go to graveyards, old graveyards where

582
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: when you're walking through the graveyard you'll see that there

583
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: are depressions in the ground. More than likely in an

584
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: old graveyard or cemetery, you will see these kind of

585
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: depressed areas. Well. That's a collapsing grave that's there that

586
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 1: you're walking adjacent to, because over a period of time,

587
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: soil has begun to settle at this level of stratification,

588
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: and over this period of time, particularly considering that it

589
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: was kind of a superficial dig on his part. Three

590
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: feet down, keep in mind, and the remains are contained

591
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: in a bag. That's one of the reasons I don't

592
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: understand why you would use line, because you've already created

593
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,719
Speaker 1: a barrier in order to prevent the line from working.

594
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: But you're not going to find this kind of commingling

595
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: of the remains where the remains are falling apart, they're

596
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: going down, and you have this thing that's called turbation

597
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: in the soil and people you don't really realize what's

598
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: going on. But the earth is always moving, okay, and

599
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: it's kind of a slow move, a slow roll. The

600
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: earth actually kind of stirs itself up, and over a

601
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: long period of time you'll see that comingling begin to

602
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: take place. There hasn't been sufficient amount of time. So

603
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: considering that he contained the body, he put it at

604
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 1: a different strata, contained it or cocooned it in this

605
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 1: plastic bag, is going to protect the remains. The bags

606
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,399
Speaker 1: would not have been I would think, intact, even though

607
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 1: there plastic tends to be in the modern age a

608
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: bit more biodegradable than it used to be, so it

609
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 1: would be in tatters more than likely.

610
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 2: We are talking about ten years in the ground.

611
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so over that period of time there is

612
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: a resiliency to plastic, and people will go on and

613
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: on about that, but it does, particularly these kind of

614
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: thin plastic bags like this, they will begin to kind

615
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: of shred over a period of time. Remember, plastic bags

616
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: that you put garbage in are meant to go to

617
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: a landfill, and so they have to have some level

618
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 1: of biodegredibility to them. It's not like you're taking some

619
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: kind of heavy industrial plastic like I don't know, we

620
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 1: used to call it VisQueen like plastic sheeting you wou'd

621
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: use on a built site, or even a plastic body

622
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: bag for instance, that is going to endure for years

623
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: and years. This kind of plastic is going to be

624
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,720
Speaker 1: not as robust, say, for instance. And so you would

625
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,439
Speaker 1: have the remains contained in a specific area. And there

626
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: they found Caara, though she was her remains were literally

627
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: lying atop the buried remains of Betty's horse that she loved,

628
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: and the sun knew where that location was, and he

629
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,760
Speaker 1: chose that area to deposit this young woman's body.

630
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 2: Dave Joe, could you at this laid day, ten years

631
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 2: in the ground, could you forensically verify his story claiming

632
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 2: that he strangled her in the car.

633
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: No, I think that it would be markedly difficult because

634
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 1: with strangulation, if that's what he said, and it is

635
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: what he is saying, and it is what he said,

636
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: in order to appreciate strangulation, you're going to need soft tissue,

637
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: and bone trauma is not always going to be there.

638
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: People think about they associate strangulation with breaking someone's neck,

639
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: and those are two different things completely. Just because someone

640
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: is strangled doesn't mean that they're necessarily going to have

641
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: neck trauma. And I know I can hear it right now.

642
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: There are people saying, well, what about the hyoid?

643
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 2: I was saying that in my head, Joe, I really was,

644
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I know he's going to get to it,

645
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 2: but yeah, what about it? We've all heard about it.

646
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: Well, yeah you have. But just because you know the

647
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: hyoid is so high up in the neck, there is

648
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: no proof that every single time someone is strangled that

649
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: the hyoid is going to be fractured. As a matter

650
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: of fact, on the contrary, I think that it would

651
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: happen more infrequently, and it all depends on where the

652
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: hands are positioned. So if an individual strangles someone say,

653
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: at the level of the male's Adams apple. If people

654
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: will kind of appreciate that, you're not really approximating the

655
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: hyoid to get up to that bony structure that's way up.

656
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: You know, it anchors the tongue, So that's how high

657
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: you get it. That's why many times when they used

658
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: to do judicial hangings, for instance, not only would they

659
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: snap the neck and which is a completely different, interesting

660
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: kind of history about hangings. They're looking to break the

661
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: neck in that particular case, but many times, because the

662
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: noose was positioned so high, you would have a fractured hyoid,

663
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 1: and those could be actually appreciated at autopsy. But just

664
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 1: because somebody puts their hands on somebody's neck and chokes

665
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: the life out of them doesn't necessarily mean that you're

666
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,399
Speaker 1: going to see a fractured bone in the neck.

667
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 2: So ultimately, ten years after the fact, you've or take

668
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,439
Speaker 2: the body of Karen Nichols was found three feet deep

669
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 2: with a horse body, and I'm assuming the horse was

670
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 2: just buried in the dirt. I don't know. We know

671
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 2: they did Kara in the black bag, but it was

672
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: tatter because they saw her hand as the first thing

673
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 2: they saw with the black bag on the property owned

674
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 2: by his parents. But it was many years after at

675
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 2: least three people had heard the story that Joel Hollandorffer

676
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 2: told them that he strangled this girl to death and

677
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 2: buried her body on his parents' farm.

678
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and here's the thing. Joel Hollandorfer was actually tried

679
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: and convicted in the homicide of Kiara. But here's the thing.

680
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 1: So much time had a lapsed day that initially they

681
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: had charged him with second degree murder, that charge was

682
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: reduced to manslaughter in tampering with evidence. And the terrifying

683
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 1: thing about this is that he was given twenty four years,

684
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: which he's currently serving in the penitentiary in Colorado. But

685
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: he still has a shot. He's forty seven years old

686
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:01,760
Speaker 1: day when he went inside. He still got a shot

687
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 1: to get out and still have some life to live

688
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: after that period of time. But Karen Nichols, she's gone,

689
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:16,760
Speaker 1: but finally her family can properly grieve her. I'm Joseph

690
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body backs