WEBVTT - Why Independent Journalism May Save Democracy | A Conversation with Judd Legum 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:04.000 Welcome everybody to this warning. Addition, we're thrilled to be 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:09.200 able to bring you jud Legum. Jud is an extraordinary journalist, 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:15.400 one of the leaders of this new era of independent journalism, 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:19.240 of people that can't be bought off, can't be made 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:23.279 to bend the knee, can't be made to capitulate, and 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:29.760 fundamentally are on your side if you're an ordinary person 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:35.240 out there trying to understand what's going on. I have 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:40.480 a political perspective that one of the issues of our 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:44.519 time that must be dealt with very squarely is the 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:51.920 accumulation of power, government power, police power, tech company power, 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:58.840 pharmaceutical company power, the power of monopolists, the power of 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:06.360 conglomerate that have stifled competition, that have become intrusive of privacy, 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:15.000 have become arrogant, have become officious. Extraordinary moment that marks 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:18.000 the end of an era, the beginning of a new one. 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:22.880 At Trump's inaugural where he is sitting there seating the 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:27.520 American oligarchs for the world to see, even in front 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:35.200 of his cabinet. The indiscriminate, thoughtless damage done to public 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:41.280 institutions without debate by the world's richest man, Elon musk 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:48.240 the disintegration of that relationship. Jud Legum covers all of 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:56.200 it and goes in depth, substantively reports facts that are 0:01:56.320 --> 0:02:03.240 necessary for citizens to have. In a free society, where 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:10.480 there's no accountability, there can't be any oversight of government. 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.360 And in this country, government is of the people, by 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:20.079 the people, for the people, by design, and so we 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:24.280 see a lot of testing, a lot of probing, a 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:28.120 lot of assertion, and a lot of crumbling of institutions. 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:32.760 And with jud Legum you have somebody who can help 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:37.160 explain it. If you do not subscribe to popular information, 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:40.040 I really urge you to do so. This is something 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:45.400 that I read very very very early in my reading 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:51.880 cycle of the day. It's something that I put in 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:57.639 the first rank of credibility. I know when jud Legum 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:01.440 says that this is the story of what has happened here. 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.200 If this is asserted in a jud Legum story as 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:11.400 a fact, it's a fact. And so we have spaces 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:15.400 in this country where you can be informed, where you 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:19.240 can find out what's happening, but it's on you to 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:23.000 go find it, and so to be better informed, I 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:27.040 really urge you to go to popular information and arm 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:34.960 yourself with information and popular information. I imagine jud had a 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:39.680 very specific meaning when you when you named it, Can 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:42.120 you take us inside that how it came to be 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:46.119 and as you were sitting there in that moment that hey, 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:49.000 I'm gonna I'm gonna do this, how this gets started 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:50.640 and how the name come to be. 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:58.280 Well, you know, there's a there's a a famous quote 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:06.200 that a democracy, you know, without popular information or the 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:10.800 means for acquiring it, is a prologue to a farce 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:13.840 or a tragedy. H And that was by James Badison, 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:20.200 and the idea being that democracy itself, the whole premise 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:24.799 of it is focused on people having an accurate understanding 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:28.320 of the world so they can make decisions the whole 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:29.159 massive people. 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:30.080 Uh. 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:36.599 And I think that that's something that's really under attack. 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:37.200 Obviously. 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:41.920 You have an administration now that is basing a lot 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:48.200 of its efforts on inculcating people with ideas that that 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:49.960 are are grounded in reality. 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:54.239 So that's you know, that's really what what I'm trying 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:54.680 to do. 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:56.440 Uh, you know, and I'm not going to get to 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:00.559 everything I do four for newsletters a week, but trying 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:04.360 to pick out the things that are the most important 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.120 or that not necessarily even the most important, but the 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:11.360 things that I feel like are not getting adequate coverage 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:16.560 elsewhere where I can provide some added value and bringing 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:20.320 that to as many people as possible. So it's not designed, 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:24.080 I think when I was conceiving of the name, it's 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:29.239 there's a lot of political newsletters that are really geared 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:34.040 towards sort of an insidery audience, people who are working 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:39.560 in politics, the lobbyists, the staffers, all of those folks, 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:41.960 and obviously you know there's nothing that they're free to 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:44.480 read this newsletter as well. 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:47.840 But my goal really is to have. 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:52.039 Is to have this appeal to a broad audience, because 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:56.919 that's where I think is really the important work to 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:00.680 be done, and really underserved group of people. 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:07.440 So you have this incredible body of work, and it's 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:11.360 so in depth. Can you just take us inside. How 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:15.640 you approach the week, how do you settle on this 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:18.919 is what I'm going to cover this week? How much 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:24.200 time goes into each story? How many stories are you 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:29.600 developing at any one time, and what's the total footprint 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:34.840 of popular information? I mean, your output to me is 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:39.240 something that, Wow, he must have a giant newsroom behind 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:43.600 him and I suspect the actuality. You don't, but I 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:51.240 just you're very prolific, and you talk about necessary stories 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:57.320 across this broad front and I find them just universally interesting, 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:02.520 but they take us inside that story reselection process that hey, 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:04.840 I'm gonna like, this is something I got to get 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:08.320 on and I'm gonna go deep on this and then 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:11.560 not not the not the names of course of sources, 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.240 but how do you how do you get into some 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:19.440 of this stuff as deeply as you do while publishing 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:21.200 as frequently as you do. 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:26.240 Well thanks for that question, Steve. I think the way 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:30.320 that it really works is that I'm working usually on 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:33.800 at least two tracks, most of the time three or four, 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:34.960 so I try. 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:38.240 I usually always have a few stories, and these are 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:40.840 stories that I can be working on for for weeks, 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:41.480 for months. 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:44.840 You know, I'm working on a story. I'll just kind 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:46.040 of give a little teaser forks. 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:47.520 I think I'm finally gonna be ready to put it 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:52.360 out next week on a member of Congress who just resigned, 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:57.800 and I had some video of him appearing side by 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.480 side with a lobbyist and sort of trying to understand 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:03.000 what it was he was doing and what the implications 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.680 of all that were and contacting people. And I've been 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:09.360 working on that for a few weeks now, you know, 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:12.760 making sure that I understood the got the story right. 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:16.560 At the same time, I published four times a week 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:20.000 at six thirty in the morning Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:26.200 and so I'm always I always hit that that those times, 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:30.280 and so as I'm working on those stories, I'm slotting 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:34.640 them into some of those these longer term, you know stories, 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:36.319 and some of them are these ones where I get 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:40.080 a tip or a piece of information through people that 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:42.920 I know, and but I also put my signal number 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:47.720 out there or my signal username now out there so 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:48.520 that people. 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:50.320 Can contact me. That was what was going on. 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.920 Of course, a lot in the beginning of this administration, 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:55.920 so many people in the federal government just desperate to 0:08:57.120 --> 0:08:58.360 tell people what's going on? 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:02.600 Is that chilled? Has that changed? 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:04.079 It has? 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:06.240 And I think the reason why is I had a 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:10.640 lot of people in different agencies, you know, and I 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:13.840 produced a lot of reporting on the Social Security a 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.960 lot on omp different places where I had people who 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:22.720 were on the inside, and anytime something that they thought 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.680 was significant happit, they were reaching out to me. Most 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.839 of those people have now left. The people that I 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:31.319 was talking to, at least most of them have now left, 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:33.040 And I think the ones that are. 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:36.880 Still there, there's been a real. 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:43.960 Crackdown and people are much more hesitant to talk. And 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:47.800 I think my guess is that there's a lot more 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:54.120 surveillance going on. There's a lot more aggressive rooting out 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:57.280 of anyone who was trying to get information out there. 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:00.720 It still occurs, but it's nowhere ne the level that 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:02.560 it was. I think also part of it is sort 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:09.160 of this natural kind of I think the things that 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:11.839 were happening initially were such a shock. Maybe people aren't 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.440 even reaching out as much because what's going on doesn't 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:15.880 even shock them as much anymore. 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:17.920 But but yeah. 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:21.760 I have that and then and then you know, so 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:25.439 so some of these stories are are are days or weeks, 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:27.400 you know, and some of them are from tips. Some 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:30.520 of them are you know, research projects that I'm looking 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:34.240 at data or you know, there's filings coming out I'm understanding, 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:36.360 Like when the you know, the end of this month, 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:40.080 we've got a big filings, we'll understand and they'll finally 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:43.880 be disclosed. Who's contributed to all of the super PACs, 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:47.559 the main Senate super packs, the House super PACs. That'll 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:51.640 be pretty interesting to see what happens. But then other 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:53.640 times I don't have one of those ladies, so I'm 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:57.400 gonna go and find something that I can turn around 0:10:57.440 --> 0:10:59.600 in six or seven hours. 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.720 I do have two full time staff people. 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:04.240 Who helped me out, so we can get you know, 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:06.720 between the three of us, we can get pretty in 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.640 depth in you know, six or seven hours, and and 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:13.640 and try to find something something new, talk to some folks, 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:17.920 look at some primary source information, and we'll get something 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:22.160 out the next day. So so that's that's the that's 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.760 those are sort of the two ways in which it occurs, 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:27.320 and they're all kind of all going on at once. Uh, 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:28.640 And it can be a bit of a challenge, but 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:30.600 it's something I really enjoyed doing, so it's I don't 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:33.280 I don't consider it a burden. It's just that's kind 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.040 of you know, my my way of life. And then 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:39.680 you get something out and you're thinking about the next idea. 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:44.200 How do you know when something's hit? What? What what 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:49.040 do you what do you measure success as right? You know, 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:53.319 at some level you've made the commitment to report it 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:57.000 you've done it with integrity, You've put it out there, 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:00.000 so there's pride in the work. But how do you 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:05.720 know when this is a piece of information that's really 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:12.200 landed with the with the public. And how often are 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:18.959 you seeing your original reporting then picked up in other 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:25.640 places and carried forward? And is their crossover of popular 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:32.239 information reporting into that corporate media space where they're sourcing 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:40.679 popular information right as the credible, independent investigative news agency 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.120 who has brought to light something that was not in 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.760 the public sphere prior. 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:50.160 Yeah, that certainly does happen, and we try to put 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:55.000 all the information into each newsletter so that people can 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:57.400 feel confident of that. So when we're gonna if we 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:01.120 are going to report on a me that was produced 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.240 by the Social Security Agency, you know, a big one 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:07.800 that we put out was one where they were describing 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:12.160 the impacts of scaling back and really eliminating phone service 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.760 for a huge swath of beneficiaries, and it was really 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.800 described as potentially catastrophic. This was in an internal memo 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:23.200 that was widely picked up by a lot of media outlets. 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:29.239 I think that ultimately what I'm looking for is impact. 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:31.840 You know, I don't think this is just a. 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:38.040 Process where you're just you know, entertaining people or tried to, 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:40.920 you know, just find something that people enjoy reading. I 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.600 hope people do enjoy reading it. I hope people feel 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:45.800 like they're getting something out of it. But at the 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:49.400 end of the day, I want the work to have 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:53.600 an impact on the world. So a story that we 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:59.680 worked on earlier this year regarding the big fight about 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:04.880 the Supreme Court race in North Carolina, which was the 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.720 very last race of twenty twenty four to be decided. 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:12.760 The Republican candidate was trying to. 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.800 Throw out tens of thousands of ballots and actually convinced 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.520 the same Supreme Court of North Carolina that he was 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.400 ready for to throw out a bunch of ballots on 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:29.800 the grounds that they had never lived in North Carolina. 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.600 We actually found and even with a local partner that 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:37.640 we teamed up with, talked to many of these folks 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:39.920 and found that they had in fact lived in North Carolina, 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:43.200 some of them had never lived anywhere else. And it 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:45.640 was just, you know, as often these things are, a 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:51.440 data air that was then cited in both state and 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.840 federal court and ultimately in the decisions that you know, 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.760 settled that election. So that's not going to happen all 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.040 the time. But for me, that says, Okay, we dug 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:04.320 into it. We worked hard on this story, we got 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:08.320 out and substantiated the facts, and now it's had an impact. 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:11.240 Other things are going to have an impact over time. 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.040 You know, I think that that's it's not going to 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.720 be you put the story out, it appears in this lawsuit, 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:18.960 and then the lawsuit goes one way. It's going to 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:25.840 be something that occurs over months and years and hopefully 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:28.840 you help shape people's understanding of an important issue. 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:35.200 How do you approach this ice issue. I'll give you 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:41.800 a political analysis of this, which is that this perversely 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:50.720 named propagandist propaganda like named bill the big beautiful Bill, 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:57.200 so big, so incomprehensible, and there's so many things in 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:02.120 it that will harm p bull do real damage. We 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:08.640 could talk about it for many, many hours. There's one 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:14.640 big thing that didn't get through the bill, which as 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:18.280 a political learning is important, and that was the public 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:23.480 land sell off that Mike Lee tried to orchestrate, which 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:30.800 was an act of profound you know, Taylor Sheridan could 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:36.240 write thirty thirty series about the corruption in that public 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:40.440 land spin off. But what the what the bill will 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:48.840 be Berkeley, is that this created a national secret police 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:53.000 force that, if it was a military, would be the 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:58.680 fifteenth ranked military force in the world is which is 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:04.440 a very potent military And they got it through without 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:09.040 a lot of debate. And now all of a sudden, 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:13.879 and it struck me that there was an ICE official, 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:19.800 a sector chief, leaning against a armored vehicle and he said, 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.800 he doesn't work for Karen Bass, and the federal government 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:28.000 will do whatever it wants in Los Angeles. And you know, 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.200 I wish somebody to ask him a follow up question 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.040 because I wonder who it is that he believes that 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:35.800 he works for. Right if it would have been Tom 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:39.600 Homan or Christy nom or Donald Trump, I suspect his 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.000 answer would not have been, what I work for the people, 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:44.760 And of course he does. He works for us. So 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.800 you look at this guy, the sector chief, and he's 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:52.600 got his long rifle, he's got a ar it's got 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:57.960 a ammunition kit, you know, on the on the back 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.640 of it. You know, the whole the whole militarized picture. 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.440 And it makes you think, well, you know, who's the 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:10.920 enemy here. And so I'm fifty four and I've worked 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.560 in a White House, I've worked in the Congress, I've 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:17.600 worked for the governor of California. I've worked at politics 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:21.480 all around the world at every level, and there's never 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:28.240 been an official with the title sector chief that's mattered 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:32.119 in the a life of an American citizen. I wonder, 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:36.040 all of a sudden, how many powerful sector chiefs who 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:40.360 command armies we're going to have in the United States 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:47.359 posing on armored vehicles, announcing that the official who got 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.399 millions of votes in the second largest city in the 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:56.919 country and the fourth largest in North America doesn't matter, 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:01.399 and their officiousness and their arrogant So I think that 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:06.360 that story right in the in the change to society, 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:11.119 it will break and the chaos it's in an unleash. 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:15.479 How how do you intend to cover this? Right do 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:20.359 you have? Do you think is ice penetratable? Right? The 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:24.280 National Guard soldiers that are that are cooped up in 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:30.560 this coast playing performance, Like, how do you conceptualize the 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:35.320 the coverage of a story that at some level, if 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:40.840 we were sitting around talking about this five years ago, 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:43.560 six years ago, seven years ago, this would be a 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:44.680 crazy conversation. 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:49.480 Yeah, I mean, I think that looking at the bill, 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:54.520 the bill that passed, it did not pass because the 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.480 components of it were popular, or that the whole thing 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:00.439 put together was popular. It passed because they had the 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.320 power to pass it, and that's what they did. And 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:07.040 so I think that what happens next is going to 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:12.480 depend on people's understanding of how this plays out, how 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:16.000 it impacts society. I agree that this ICE issue, and 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:20.000 really the unfathomable amount of money that was given to 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.240 IC not just oh well, let's double their assets. So 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:27.440 this is twelve thirteen times. You know, they're what they 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.320 had to work with before in a lot of these categories. 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:32.040 So how do we. 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:37.439 Allow people to begin to understand how these resources are 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:41.080 being used. I don't think people want a secret police 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:45.719 that's roaming the country snatching up their neighbors. You know, 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:50.359 the reason why Trump was successful kind of demagoguing on 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:52.480 this is because he painted the idea that he was 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:55.359 going to be rounding up these horrible criminals. I think 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.959 they've already run out of folks to target. They're ripping 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:02.720 people out of these muties who've been there for decades. 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:03.399 No criminal history. 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:07.560 So for me, I'm thinking about, well, how can I 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:10.640 get into the source actually looking at this today. One 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:13.320 of the things I want to do, and I think 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:14.680 I'm going to have I think it's going to be 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:16.880 not too long, but probably a couple of months before 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:23.239 this happen, is every contract that ICE is going to 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:26.439 sign to spend this money, because they're not actually going 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:29.000 to be able to spend it internally themselves. They're going 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:32.360 to have to just outsource a lot of this because 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:34.840 they don't have the capacity to spend this much money. 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:41.679 Is public information that's listed on the government contracting database, 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:46.480 and so that's I think a pressure point because there's 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:48.240 going to be a lot of people, I think quite quick. 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:49.840 I mean there's a lot of people already who are 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:53.280 very upset. You know, Joe Rogan is very upset because 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:56.080 he didn't think there was any possibility to predict this. 0:21:56.840 --> 0:21:58.960 But many people are very upset. 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:00.240 And and. 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:06.720 I think that allowing people to understand, well, what corporations 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:11.080 are going to be complicit in this, who are going 0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:13.639 to be grabbing for this, you know, a piece of this, 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:18.000 these billions of dollars, that's something where I think I'm 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:20.720 going to add value because I don't think a lot 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:24.120 of other folks are going to be looking at that closely. 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:31.000 It is the private prison industry and area that is 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:36.760 of interest specifically to you or that you think about 0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:40.840 as as top of mind as you follow the money 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:42.679 on this. Yeah. 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:50.639 In fact, we just did a story last week. This 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:52.840 was while all this other stuff was happening, you know, 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:56.119 the bill was passing all of that, there was a 0:22:56.359 --> 0:23:01.520 very quiet story that the f CC had reversed a 0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:05.640 rule it was put in place last year that would 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:13.800 prevent companies from charging incarcerated people these outrageous fees for 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:17.520 phone calls, you know, something like twelve dollars for a 0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:20.760 fifteen minute phone call and a lot of these facilities 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:26.159 and there's really no reason. And so the question is, well, 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:30.720 why are they doing this? Because the companies that sell 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:33.879 these telecommunication service of prisons, it's not really at and T, 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:37.479 it's relatively small companies. They don't really even get a 0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:41.479 lot of money to candidate, So why are they doing this? 0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:44.639 Looking into it, the reason why these fees are so 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:51.000 high is because the people who operate the prisons, including Geogroup, 0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:55.840 cour Civic, the big private companies, they get a kickback, 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:59.200 sometimes as much as fifty percent of all of the 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:03.159 revenue that these companies bring in and they get it 0:24:03.240 --> 0:24:06.600 sent back to them as part of the contracts they sign. 0:24:07.359 --> 0:24:10.760 So we now have that industry, which as you know, 0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:14.760 is one of the top industries as far as you know, 0:24:14.840 --> 0:24:18.240 donating money to the Trump super packs, donating money to 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:21.800 the inauguration. Just really one of the industries that's gone 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:26.560 all that really went all in on Trump. And now 0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:29.720 you have the FCC for really no reason. Actually the 0:24:29.840 --> 0:24:34.439 chairman of the FCC, Brendan Carr, who's very conservative, voted 0:24:34.520 --> 0:24:38.520 for this rule last year because no one's really for this, 0:24:38.640 --> 0:24:41.919 even if you you know, I don't think anyone is 0:24:42.119 --> 0:24:44.440 pro criminal, but nobody thinks they should have to pay 0:24:44.680 --> 0:24:48.120 fifteen dollars to talk to their daughter or their mother 0:24:48.359 --> 0:24:50.720 for a few minutes when they have the opportunity to. 0:24:52.320 --> 0:24:53.040 Voted for it. 0:24:53.160 --> 0:24:55.880 Now it's been a sudden reversal, and I think it's 0:24:55.880 --> 0:24:59.600 that influence of the private prison industry, and so yes, 0:24:59.680 --> 0:25:04.560 I think they're highly influential. I think there's very little 0:25:04.960 --> 0:25:10.560 accountability for how they operate, and it's something that I'm 0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:13.560 going to have a, you know, a very close eye on. 0:25:13.640 --> 0:25:15.639 I think they're probably going to be one of the 0:25:15.680 --> 0:25:19.159 primary beneficiaries of all of this, all this money. 0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:25.720 When when you think about I had, I had this. 0:25:26.119 --> 0:25:30.000 I had an experience that was among the most astonishing 0:25:30.119 --> 0:25:33.760 of my life in this conversation, but it was at Auschwitz. 0:25:34.119 --> 0:25:37.880 And you know, the first time I went to Auschwitz, 0:25:38.080 --> 0:25:41.480 it was it was part of the US delegation for 0:25:41.560 --> 0:25:46.720 the sixtieth anniversary of the of the liberation and Eli 0:25:46.840 --> 0:25:49.960 Bezel was on that trip and I spent a fair 0:25:50.000 --> 0:25:52.639 amount of time with him, which was which was an 0:25:52.720 --> 0:25:59.479 extraordinary experience. And then I went back last last March 0:25:59.520 --> 0:26:03.480 and I went on a tour with the head guide. 0:26:04.200 --> 0:26:08.520 His name is Paul Powell, and he was a journalist 0:26:08.640 --> 0:26:14.679 who left a radio news job to become teacher educator 0:26:14.760 --> 0:26:18.400 guide there and he took Elon Musk around and I 0:26:18.480 --> 0:26:21.439 asked him, I said, well, he didn't make an impression 0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:25.040 at all, and he said, I'm afraid not. And that 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:28.720 was early in the day out on this tour. And so, 0:26:29.440 --> 0:26:31.680 you know, hat a couple of takeaways from the from 0:26:31.680 --> 0:26:38.240 the experience. But you know, one of them is is 0:26:38.320 --> 0:26:43.720 that as you comprehend the place, it was that even 0:26:43.760 --> 0:26:50.120 the people like el like Elise who survived Auschwitz really 0:26:50.160 --> 0:26:54.640 didn't fully experience Auschwitz, in that the only people who 0:26:54.680 --> 0:26:58.399 did were the ones who walked down the steps into 0:26:58.440 --> 0:27:02.880 the showers, into the gas sin, into the ovens. Right, 0:27:03.000 --> 0:27:08.440 and there was no surviving that, right. Nobody came back 0:27:08.480 --> 0:27:11.919