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Speaker 1: On January twenty fourth, two thousand and four, James J.

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Speaker 1: Davis went to a big party at the Brooklyn Masonic

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Speaker 1: Temple to celebrate his little brother, Daniel's birthday. James's knight

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Speaker 1: was cut short when he drank too much and vomited

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Speaker 1: several times. Daniel put him in a cab to meet

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Speaker 1: with his girlfriend, Caneen Johnson. Two hours later, a big

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Speaker 1: fight broke out in the club, resulting in their friend

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Speaker 1: Jamel Black, being stabbed and another man, Blake Harper, being

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Speaker 1: shot and killed. Police would interview people at the scene

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Speaker 1: to get a description of the shooter, a light skinned

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Speaker 1: black man with braids, but James didn't have braids at

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Speaker 1: the time. He had short hair with waves. Police then

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Speaker 1: called stabbing victim Jammel Black's home and spoke to his sister,

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Speaker 1: who happened to be James's spurned ex, Tina Black, who

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Speaker 1: casually named James as the shooter, even though she had

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Speaker 1: never even been at the party in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Police found Jamel at the hospital, who told them the

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Speaker 1: identity of the real shooter Tay Hall, So was it

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Speaker 1: Tay or Ja. Two weeks later, Jose Machakote, who was

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Speaker 1: at the club that night would enter the precinct and

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Speaker 1: second tin of Black's identification. About six weeks after that,

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Speaker 1: James found himself the target of an interrogation, a sham lineup,

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Speaker 1: and a murder charge. Only after his case was picked

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Speaker 1: up by the Legal Aid Society was it revealed that

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Speaker 1: Jose Machakote was actually one of the most dangerous drug

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Speaker 1: dealers in Brooklyn and the subject of a joint FBI

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Speaker 1: NYPD investigation. Magic Kote was murdered five months after his

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Speaker 1: false testimony that sent James to prison for the rest

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Speaker 1: of his life. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. That's me.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, and today you're going to hear a

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Speaker 1: story that when they write the History of Wrongful Convictions

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Speaker 1: they could put this on the cover because this story

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Speaker 1: is so outrageous that well, you're just going to have

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Speaker 1: to hear it for yourself.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is a prepaid correct call from sure an

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Speaker 2: inmate ed New York State Department of Corrections and Community Supervision.

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Speaker 2: This called the subject of recording and monitoring.

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Speaker 3: To accept charges, Press one to refuse charges, Press two

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Speaker 3: if you would like thank you for using securists. You

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Speaker 3: may start the conversation now.

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Speaker 1: On the phone from prison where he's been for almost

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Speaker 1: twenty years, we have James J. Davis. Hello, Jay, thanks

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Speaker 1: for calling in and I hope that we'll be able

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Speaker 1: to make a difference. And with us today we have

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Felber, who is the supervising attorney in the Wrongful

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Speaker 1: Conviction Unit of the Legal Aid Society.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for having us.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to the beginning. James, you had a

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Speaker 1: rough childhood growing up in Brownsville and Brooklyn, right, yeah, very.

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Speaker 5: My movel and my favel. Really in my life it

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Speaker 5: was more my grandmother. School was good up until maybe

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Speaker 5: in fifth sixth grade, where where you start noticing that

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Speaker 5: your close ain't the same as everybody else's and people

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Speaker 5: pick on you and stuff like that. My father died

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Speaker 5: when I was in fourth grade. Roughly two years later.

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Speaker 5: My mother passed away. The year before that, my brother

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Speaker 5: father passed away, so both of us had no parent

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Speaker 5: by the time I reached sixth grade.

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Speaker 1: Did you feel like a certain amount of responsibility, you know,

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Speaker 1: as an older sibling at that point, I think.

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Speaker 5: I had all of the responsibility I had to watch

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Speaker 5: after my little brothers. I had to keep people from

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Speaker 5: picking on him outside, as well as keep people from

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Speaker 5: picking on me and bullying me. So that's when the

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Speaker 5: fights started happening. I started getting into a lot of trouble. No,

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Speaker 5: everybody has your mother joke.

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Speaker 1: I've got to imagine that they stung you know a

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Speaker 1: lot more with all you've been through already. So now

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Speaker 1: you're staying at Grandma's looking out for your younger brother.

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Speaker 1: But who's looking out for you?

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Speaker 5: By the time I was fourteen, I was getting beat

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Speaker 5: a lot. I had a cousin who was supposed to

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Speaker 5: be disciplining me for getting in trouble in school and

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Speaker 5: in the neighborhood, and it was kind of obsessive. So

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Speaker 5: what ended up happening. I started running to the streets

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Speaker 5: as much as I could, for as long as I could.

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Speaker 5: I was doing a lot of stupid stuff. I was young,

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Speaker 5: robbing people. I was selling weed or whatever the old,

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Speaker 5: the older guys on the corner might be able to supply.

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Speaker 1: And that's when you ended up in juvie.

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Speaker 5: Yes, when I make it the juvie. I'm going to

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Speaker 5: school and I met this teacher, a guy named mister Bliss,

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Speaker 5: very very very smart guy, like he knew something about

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Speaker 5: anything or whatever you wanted to act. I liked that

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Speaker 5: he had that much knowledge, and I confided in him

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Speaker 5: about schooling, and he convinced me to take my GB

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Speaker 5: and I ended up passing. At that pass. He was like,

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Speaker 5: you can go to community college and get going to

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Speaker 5: high school now for re education. I was taking like

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Speaker 5: biology and global history or economics classes and it was

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Speaker 5: giving me credit for as somebody had come and check

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Speaker 5: my work.

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Speaker 1: So I understand you were accepted the CAPE for your

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Speaker 1: community college in North Carolina, near where your aunt lived,

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Speaker 1: no small feat considering your record, but your probation officer

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Speaker 1: wouldn't transfer your supervision out of state, so you were

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Speaker 1: trying to get yourself into some computer science classes locally.

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Speaker 5: Around that time, I found out that my brother was

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Speaker 5: into the streets, and that's pretty much where I got

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Speaker 5: back involved in the streets, selling weed and being there

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Speaker 5: for this case.

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth, take us back to January twenty fourth, two thousand

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Speaker 1: and four. What happened that faithful night?

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Speaker 6: Okay, So January twenty fourth was his brother, Daniel's birthday,

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Speaker 6: and Daniel wanted to go to a party that was

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Speaker 6: being held at a Masonic temple lodge where they hosted events.

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Speaker 6: It was a party for people with January birthdays.

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Speaker 5: Well, my brother birthday was coming up. It was more

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Speaker 5: whatever you want to do, I'm going to participate. Bo

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Speaker 5: is an older guy from the neighborhood that he's like

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Speaker 5: a well like guy. He does parties. He knew my

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Speaker 5: brother as well. Two of them was promoting the party

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Speaker 5: po and another guy, I don't know which one of

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Speaker 5: them my brother. He been talking about his birthday for

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Speaker 5: a long time, so they put him on a flyer.

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Speaker 6: I guess Jay was not really a party goer. He

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Speaker 6: was a quiet guy. I think he'd tell you himself

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Speaker 6: he'd rather stay home with friends smoke weed. But he

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Speaker 6: loved his brother. He was fiercely protective, so he decided

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Speaker 6: to go with them as well.

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Speaker 5: Well my brother birthday. My plan was the like, we

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Speaker 5: just gonna chill, maybe call up some girls to come

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Speaker 5: hang out at the projects with us, someone making drink

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Speaker 5: for free, and hang out. He was been doing going

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Speaker 5: to the party because his name was on a flyer.

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Speaker 5: So it comes to be almost twelve o'clock and I

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Speaker 5: wanted to surprise my brother. So I walked to the

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Speaker 5: liquor store before it closed to get a bottle on

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Speaker 5: the weet and a bottle of Hennessy. And when I

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Speaker 5: got back, my brother was like, oh, I forgot the party.

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Speaker 6: And Jay was not a big drinker, so by the

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Speaker 6: time he got to the party, he had had a

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Speaker 6: few already, and then he persuaded the bouncer to let

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Speaker 6: him or one of the hosts who let him combine

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Speaker 6: the two drinks he was drinking, which were hennessy and champagne,

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Speaker 6: kind of a disgusting combination. He threw them to you know,

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Speaker 6: we put them together. He went into the party, and

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Speaker 6: he proceeded to have a few more drinks in the

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Speaker 6: bathroom because they told him, okay, you can have your

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Speaker 6: own drink, but you have to put some shade on it.

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Speaker 5: Before you know it. I was trying to rush my

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Speaker 5: drinks so that we can actually get out of the bathroom.

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Speaker 5: I wanted to see what the party was really like.

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Speaker 5: Plus my brother, you know, smoke, so he's out on

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Speaker 5: the dance floor most of the time. Anyway, I'm like,

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Speaker 5: I want to get out there and actually enjoy some

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Speaker 5: of his birthday with him, and the mixture didn't agree

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Speaker 5: with me. The hennessy and the moat turned my stomach over.

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Speaker 5: That was the start of the end of the night.

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Speaker 5: I threw up maybe once or twice in the bathroom,

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Speaker 5: and before I know it, through the laughing, I hear

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Speaker 5: my brother pretty much like, come on, man, now, I

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Speaker 5: got to take you back home.

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Speaker 4: We just got here.

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Speaker 5: We ain't even fully been in the club long enough

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Speaker 5: full negotiation. I just told him I just woke me outside,

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Speaker 5: I catch a cab and I go to my girlfriend house.

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Speaker 4: So they went outside.

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Speaker 6: They got a cab and James called his girlfriend, Caneen Johnson,

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Speaker 6: and took the cab to her place and she met

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Speaker 6: him outside. Her mother didn't like James, so they would

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Speaker 6: stay with her aunt.

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Speaker 5: I got there at two forty five, maybe three. So

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Speaker 5: when I got there, she's sitting on the steps already,

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Speaker 5: I step out there cav th got threw up in

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Speaker 5: between cars before I even touched this side. Well, she

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Speaker 5: came running down the steps, rubbed my back, I think,

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Speaker 5: and walked to our house, stop at the store and

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Speaker 5: went into our house. And that was this. I think

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Speaker 5: she even had a couple of jokes and I, hey, y'all,

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Speaker 5: go again.

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Speaker 6: So he was long gone Before anything happened. At the party,

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Speaker 6: which was around four in the morning, a fight broke

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Speaker 6: out and somebody was seriously stabbed. We now know that

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Speaker 6: was Jamel Black, and Blake Harper was shot and killed.

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Speaker 6: A couple other people were shot, but not seriously, but

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Speaker 6: James had already left the party hours earlier.

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Speaker 1: So you wake up the next morning at your girlfriend

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Speaker 1: Kneen's her aunt's house, really, and one of the guys

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Speaker 1: you were with, Jamel Black, had been stabbed the night before.

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Speaker 1: How did you hear that news?

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Speaker 5: Well, both of us up. The news is on. It's

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Speaker 5: about the Masonic temple. Immediately I called my house on

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Speaker 5: the landline, and first thing I asked, is my brother there.

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Speaker 5: My grandmother like, yeah, he came in last night. He's

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Speaker 5: in the room sleep. You know, they had a fight, right,

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Speaker 5: And I asked for my aunt because my auntor probably

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Speaker 5: no more than my grandmother would and my aunt is like, yeah,

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Speaker 5: Jameel got stabbed and this guy got stabbed and somebody

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Speaker 5: got killed. But nobody knew who the guy was that

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Speaker 5: got killed. So I'm like, I'm coming over there.

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Speaker 1: I got there.

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Speaker 5: My brother pretty much told me I wasn't really involved

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Speaker 5: in it, but it was crazy in it and a

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Speaker 5: fight broke out, people shooting, girls screaming and everybody running.

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Speaker 1: Police had responded to the scene and they interviewed a

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Speaker 1: number of people at the club, and no one that

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Speaker 1: they interviewed knew the identity of the shooter. But he

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Speaker 1: was described as a young, light skinned blackmail with braids

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Speaker 1: on the back of his head. Now, James, is that

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Speaker 1: an accurate description of you at that time?

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Speaker 5: No, I actually didn't have braids at the time. I

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Speaker 5: had a low sea like waves.

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Speaker 1: So police have already interviewed witnesses at the scene the

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Speaker 1: night before. You're a friend who has stabbed Jamel Black.

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Speaker 1: They call his house, but they get his sister on

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Speaker 1: the phone in stat Now, James, you have a storied

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Speaker 1: past with this young woman.

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Speaker 5: Correct, seeing a black like the first girlfriend I ever had.

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Speaker 5: We've never done anything together, but we've been like close

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Speaker 5: friends ever since, being boyfriend and girlfriend at like eight

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Speaker 5: or nine years old. And when I went to Juvie,

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Speaker 5: me and her made contact again somehow, and we was

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Speaker 5: talking about pretty much moving in with each other when

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Speaker 5: I came home. But when I came home from Juvie.

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Speaker 5: It was like, I don't know. She gave me like

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Speaker 5: the code showed up. I did three and a half

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Speaker 5: years almost, I'm coming home to a girlfriend thinking that

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Speaker 5: you know, sex is like right there on the list

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Speaker 5: one of the first things at the seeing each other's

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Speaker 5: family and kicking it for a little bit, and herme

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Speaker 5: on it was like, nah, I'm not trying to do that.

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Speaker 5: So I was like, not really to be pressure in

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Speaker 5: peer pressure in anything. But this is stuff that we've

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Speaker 5: been speaking about for like over a year. Ready after

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Speaker 5: that day, we never spoke as girlfriend and boyfriend again,

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Speaker 5: but we see each ever in passing and we always

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Speaker 5: remain called you, but we never spoke on a relationship

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Speaker 5: or any of that stuff ever again.

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Speaker 6: What we learned was that Tina Black still harbored a

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Speaker 6: flame for him and was hugely jealous when she found

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Speaker 6: out that he had a new girlfriend, and out of spite,

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Speaker 6: she told the police that James did the shooting, even

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Speaker 6: though you can tell by the only police record on

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Speaker 6: her she wasn't at the party that night. She was

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Speaker 6: very sick with juvenile diabetes, too sick to go to

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Speaker 6: a party. The police should have known that she wasn't

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Speaker 6: at the party, and yet they just focused on him.

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Speaker 6: The second page of the detective notebook says Purp James

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Speaker 6: Davis Jay, So it's just tunnel vision from then on out.

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Speaker 1: Right, So people that were there couldn't identify the suspect.

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Speaker 1: The woman who wasn't there does identify a suspect. And

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Speaker 1: of course we know that Tina later on confessed to

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Speaker 1: her mother and to others as she had lied to

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Speaker 1: the police. It just seems like so many different things

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Speaker 1: went wrong that didn't need to right, and this now

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Speaker 1: we're up to the part with the detectives went to

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Speaker 1: the hospital, right, and the interviewed Jammel Black. So can

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Speaker 1: you talk about that a little bit?

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Speaker 4: Sure?

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Speaker 6: So the detectives actually went to the hospital the day

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Speaker 6: of the incident and they were told he was just

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Speaker 6: coming out of surgery.

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Speaker 4: He was too out of it.

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Speaker 6: The doctors wouldn't let him interview. Jamel Jamelle testified out

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Speaker 6: our hearing and he told the court that what happened

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Speaker 6: was those detectives came back later and they wanted to

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Speaker 6: know what happened, and at first he wasn't really engaging

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Speaker 6: with them, but then they made it seem like they

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Speaker 6: thought he was the shooter, which makes sense because if

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Speaker 6: there's a brawl and one person gets shot and the

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Speaker 6: other person get stabbed, you kind of think that they're

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Speaker 6: they're somehow related.

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Speaker 4: So because of that, Jammel told them what.

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Speaker 6: Happened, which was he had been stabbed by the guy

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Speaker 6: who was subsequently killed, and this guy named Tay Hall

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Speaker 6: was helping him out of the party when he says,

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Speaker 6: oh shit, pushes Jammel to the ground, and you hear

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Speaker 6: shots fired. Jammel looks up and he sees Tay putting

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Speaker 6: a gun back in his pocket and saying, I got

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Speaker 6: to get out of here. The police are coming. But

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Speaker 6: there was no written report about that conversation and it

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Speaker 6: never came out. At the hearing, the judge said, Oh,

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Speaker 6: it's just not credible that they wouldn't have a report

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Speaker 6: about it. Well, it's also not credible that you wouldn't

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Speaker 6: interview the person who was stabbed, because they would most

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Speaker 6: likely have the most relevant information.

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Speaker 1: So let's fast forward then to a couple of months

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Speaker 1: after the shooting, right, and that's when the warrant squad came.

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Speaker 1: They were actually looking for your younger brother. When they

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Speaker 1: arrested you, and you weren't even aware that they were

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Speaker 1: looking for you because you knew that you didn't have

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Speaker 1: anything to do with this and there was no reason

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Speaker 1: to suspect you of anything other than being drunk and

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Speaker 1: throwing up on the sidewalk. And they arrested you. It

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Speaker 1: brought you to the precincts and interrogated you for hours

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Speaker 1: and hours. Maybe they thought you were going to confess

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Speaker 1: or something like, maybe even a false confession, but you

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Speaker 1: never did. No.

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Speaker 5: They took me from my house and under the guys

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Speaker 5: that I had a warrant, which I did. I did

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Speaker 5: have a warrant for disorderly conduct and do community service.

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Speaker 5: But they never took me to the court building. They

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Speaker 5: took me down to like homicide headquarters where I'm at

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Speaker 5: Detective Hutchinson for the first time before they took me

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Speaker 5: to the precinct. At the precinct, they pretty much was

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Speaker 5: asking me, do I know Jamail Black? And do I

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Speaker 5: know what happened to Jamail Black? So I explained to

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Speaker 5: them the same thing that I just was telling you

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Speaker 5: about getting drunk and leaving a party, and that seemed

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Speaker 5: the right. They left. Then they came back and they

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Speaker 5: were still asking me about the party and where I

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Speaker 5: was at. So I gave him more detail of who

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Speaker 5: I went with, who actually walked me to the door, whatever,

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Speaker 5: where I went after I left the party, and they

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Speaker 5: left again. But this time I'm feeling funny. I'm like,

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Speaker 5: I ain't keep asking me where was I at the

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Speaker 5: next time he came in, I think he started asking

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Speaker 5: about the shooting. Do you know the guy that got killed?

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Speaker 5: I'm like, I don't know the guy that got killed,

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Speaker 5: but I know one of the guys that got shot

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Speaker 5: because I went to school with him as well. But

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Speaker 5: I don't know the guy that got killed. And from there,

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Speaker 5: I don't remember exactly the rest of the questions, but

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Speaker 5: it was pretty much all about the shooting there. So

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Speaker 5: I'm like, when am I going to court? I'm supposed

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Speaker 5: to be going to court. They're like, no, what we're

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Speaker 5: going to do is we're gonna put you in the lineup.

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Speaker 5: I'm like, a lineup. I need a lawyer. It's like,

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Speaker 5: do you have a lawyer. I'm like, no, I don't

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Speaker 5: have a lawyer, but I have a lawyer in my

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Speaker 5: family who can come and represent me. And he asked

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Speaker 5: me for his name and phone them I'm like, I

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Speaker 5: don't have a phone number for him, but he should

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Speaker 5: be listed. My uncle, Robert Davis, is a lawyer. I

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Speaker 5: want somebody present. But he tells me if I don't

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Speaker 5: have a number for him, then he can't call them.

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Speaker 5: And they just took me back to the room and

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Speaker 5: left me in the room. And from there it went

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Speaker 5: to the lineup and it came back with four guys.

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Speaker 5: Three of them is dark skinned, two of them have

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Speaker 5: he set this can't be the people that they're going

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Speaker 5: to put in the lineup with me. Nobody looks like me,

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Speaker 5: nobody favors me in no way, shape or form. But

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Speaker 5: I'm like, this can't be. And he bring two more

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Speaker 5: guys in, like Indian looking guys. I'm like, nah, this

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Speaker 5: is this is a fix.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about this lineup

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Speaker 1: and how things went so wrong?

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Speaker 6: As he says in his own statement, this is not

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Speaker 6: a fair lineup. So the lineup in itself was already suggestive.

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Speaker 6: But there were three people who viewed the lineup. One

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Speaker 6: of them was Jose Macha Cody. He was the first

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Speaker 6: witness that they brought into view a photo spread about

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Speaker 6: six weeks earlier, and it was unclear why he was called.

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Speaker 6: He was the brother in law of the man who died,

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Speaker 6: but he was not one of the people that had

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Speaker 6: been originally interviewed. It's pretty common knowledge that when you've

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Speaker 6: picked someone out of a photograph, you pick them again

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Speaker 6: in the lineup because you recognize them as the person.

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Speaker 6: But the lineup happened six weeks later. At the lineup,

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Speaker 6: the two other witnesses, Harold Poe and Sean Belton, they

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Speaker 6: were brought there by the mother of the deceased, and

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Speaker 6: according to their testimony, she called them and said, they

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Speaker 6: have the guy they think who did it at the

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Speaker 6: precinct and they want you to just come to see

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Speaker 6: if you can identify him, or something to that effect.

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Speaker 6: That's already contaminating the lineup because there's a pressure put

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Speaker 6: on them that this is the person they have, the person,

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Speaker 6: they feel compelled to sit pick one person, especially especially

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Speaker 6: when the mother of the deceased has chauffeur driven you

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Speaker 6: to the precincts. So they picked James, but one of

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Speaker 6: them said, always from the beginning, we resembles him, except

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Speaker 6: for the braids, because when James got arrested, his hair

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Speaker 6: was short, and the other guy, Sean Belton. Now, originally

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Speaker 6: he had said I didn't see anything when the police

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Speaker 6: spoke to him. Now he said, oh, I just said

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Speaker 6: that because I was afraid. But the description he gave

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Speaker 6: before he viewed him was someone wearing a Scully cap

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Speaker 6: and that's nowhere in any description. And also five ten

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Speaker 6: and James was like five seven, so he didn't even

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Speaker 6: describe someone that looked like James.

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Speaker 4: So that's how they picked him.

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Speaker 6: There was a fourth person at the lineup who did

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Speaker 6: not testify at the trial or the hearings, and what

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Speaker 6: Detective Hutchinson said about him wash we picked him out.

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Speaker 6: He just wouldn't sign the sheets, saying he had again

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Speaker 6: you know some things, just your alarm goes off. That

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Speaker 6: smells fishy. So we caught up with him. He did

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Speaker 6: not want to be involved. He made that one hundred

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Speaker 6: and fifty percent clear. But what he told us was no,

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Speaker 6: I never said that was the guy. That's why I

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Speaker 6: wouldn't sign. And what I said to them was, if

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Speaker 6: you say that's the guy, that's the guy. So to me,

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Speaker 6: that says they were prompted to pick James, and I

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Speaker 6: should just add that. Sean Belton at the second trial

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Speaker 6: recanted again and said I just glanced at him. He

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Speaker 6: gave four separate statements, so that was him, and the

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Speaker 6: other guy always only said he resembled him. So essentially,

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Speaker 6: it really came down to host him Macha Cody.

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Speaker 5: When you think about the convenience of Tina Black Jr.

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Speaker 5: Giving my name to the detective, and then a week later,

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Speaker 5: Jose Machakodi, the drug building, violent robber who's a humble

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Speaker 5: bobber now just happens to walk into the precint though

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Speaker 5: he didn't stay at the crime scene when everything happened,

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Speaker 5: he fled the crime scene. He walks into the precinct

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Speaker 5: and he picks my picture. He's the only one that

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Speaker 5: goes to the precinct and it just so happens that

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Speaker 5: he's known in this neighborhood. To me, the whole case

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Speaker 5: is weird from beginning to end. I think that this

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Speaker 5: was a misunderstanding. Then maybe from speaking to Jamail Black

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Speaker 5: and him telling them the story he told them about

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Speaker 5: pay then them acts and his system about kay Is

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Speaker 5: she telling them Jane and they just went from there

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Speaker 5: with the easiest thing that they could do to close

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Speaker 5: the case. And it just so happened to be that

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Speaker 5: I was convenience for them.

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Speaker 1: This episode is sponsored by AIG, a leading global insurance company,

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Speaker 1: and Paul Weiss Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison, a leading international

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Speaker 1: law firm. The AIG pro Bono Program provides free legal

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Speaker 1: services and other support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals

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Speaker 1: most in need, and recently they announced that working to

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Speaker 1: reform the criminal justice system will become a key pillar

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Speaker 1: of the program's mission. Paul Weiss has long had an

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Speaker 1: unwavering commitment to providing impact, actual pro bon or legal

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Speaker 1: assistance to the most vulnerable members of our society and

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Speaker 1: in support of the public interest, including extensive work in

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Speaker 1: the criminal justice area.

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Speaker 5: After the lineup, they told me I was being charge

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Speaker 5: with murder, and he offered me a deal pretty much detaching,

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Speaker 5: Hunchinson asked me to tell him that I did it,

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Speaker 5: because he already heard about the story of what happened.

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Speaker 5: Somebody told him that two groups of guys was fighting

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Speaker 5: and the guy in one of the groups had a knife,

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Speaker 5: and the guy and the other group had a gun,

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Speaker 5: and he shot the guy with the knife to defend himself. Like,

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Speaker 5: if you tell me that, then I can help you.

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Speaker 5: If I speak to the DA, I'm like, what the

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Speaker 5: hell kind of shit is that? Why the fuck would

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Speaker 5: I tell you I did something that I'm telling you

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Speaker 5: I wasn't even aware of. I wasn't there for it.

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Speaker 5: And he's like, you know, if I was you, I

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Speaker 5: would have did the same thing. If it was me

435
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 5: a guy comes at me with a knife and I

436
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,400
Speaker 5: got a gun, I would show you ain't doing that wrong.

437
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 5: I was like, well, do you want me to admit

438
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 5: this something I didn't do that's wrong right there? And

439
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 5: told them if you would have told me that this

440
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 5: was this was about from the beginning, I probably would

441
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 5: have never spoke to you. I wouldn't have tried to

442
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 5: help you.

443
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 1: But here it is.

444
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 5: I tried to help you, and I turned out to

445
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 5: be the one going to jail.

446
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 1: Pretty much.

447
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 5: A fingerprinted me and put me in a holding cell

448
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 5: for the rest of the night.

449
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: So now things go from bad to worse right the trial.

450
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,119
Speaker 1: There's a number of problems at both trials, although the

451
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: first trial amazingly ended up. And you know it hurts

452
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 1: me to say this, and I know you must have

453
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,159
Speaker 1: had a lot of sleepless nights over this, James, but

454
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 1: the first trial. In spite of the fact that you

455
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 1: had substandard defense, you still ended up with an eleven

456
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 1: to one hung jury in favor of a quittal. I

457
00:23:55,560 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: rarely hear that, So talk about the trial from your perspective, James.

458
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 5: So his trial is going on. I'm reading the paperwork

459
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 5: that they gave me the day before my trial actually started.

460
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 5: I'm still going through paperwork, and I'm noticing that, you know,

461
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 5: they black out the name, so you don't know who's who.

462
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 5: But I'm listening to the stories and now it's making

463
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 5: sense with the DD fives from the police station, because

464
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 5: now I'm seeing, Oh, this is the guy that said

465
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 5: he never seen nothing at the crime scene. That changed

466
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 5: his story the other two times to this story now,

467
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 5: which happened to be Sean Belton. His first statement to

468
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 5: the police at the crime scene was, I never seen

469
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 5: what happened. I was talking to two girls and shots

470
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 5: went off and I ducked for cover to protect myself.

471
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 5: I never seen anything, havel poll throughout the whole thing,

472
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 5: he never identified me from the precinct to trial. He

473
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 5: only told the officers that it was two guys that

474
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 5: looked like each other that had the fight in the

475
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 5: shooting and everything, and he only referred to me as

476
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 5: looking similar to one of the guys in that trial.

477
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 5: He said, I resemble a guy that he's seen at

478
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 5: the preaching. He never picked me out and said definitively

479
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 5: that's him right there that I've seen doing the shooting.

480
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 5: Like you have this one guy, Jose Machakodi, who's laming

481
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 5: the cause of his murder on his brother in law. Well,

482
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 5: the two prosecutors witnesses beside him are saying that he

483
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 5: started the whole fight. You have a conflict between your

484
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 5: own witnesses where they're pointing the finger at this guy

485
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 5: saying that he did X, Y and Z that caused

486
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 5: us to come over and be of assistance to him.

487
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 5: But this is your main witness, Jose Machakodi, and he's

488
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 5: saying that I had nothing to do with it. I'm

489
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 5: a humble barber. I never committed a crime again after

490
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 5: I was locked up all of those years ago.

491
00:25:58,880 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: But here it is.

492
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 5: You got two witnesses that you put in on a stand.

493
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 5: You want us to believe that they identified me, but

494
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 5: you don't want us to believe that they're seeing that

495
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 5: this guy's lying and he started to fight that led

496
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 5: to this shooting and stabbing.

497
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: Did you think you were going to be exonerated as

498
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: you should have been?

499
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 5: I thought that I would be at the first trial

500
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 5: because the jury that we had, they was asking questions

501
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 5: that were relevant, that should have stood out to the

502
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 5: police officers that did the investigation, to the DA's office

503
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 5: that got their paperwork from the police officers, And though

504
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 5: my lawyer didn't put on the best case, the jurors

505
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 5: used their comments.

506
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 6: Sense Kenein Johnson, his girlfriend did testify at the first trial.

507
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 6: I think that in part was part of what led

508
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 6: to the eleven to one Aquila that she was a

509
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 6: very persuasive witness, because she was very persuasive at the

510
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 6: hearing as well.

511
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 5: She's explaining to them how I came to the house

512
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 5: us staying over at her aunt's place. She explained pretty

513
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 5: much why her mother didn't like me as much or

514
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 5: why we didn't stay at her mother's house and some others.

515
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 5: Was like a COO or x CEO at the time,

516
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 5: so it was like kind of a conflict or interest.

517
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 5: This guy that's selling weed and always smoking with no job.

518
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 5: I guess she didn't think I was good enough for

519
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 5: her daughter.

520
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 1: The first trial ended up with an eleven to one

521
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 1: hung fury in favor of a quittle.

522
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 5: Even the judge said it something must be wrong if

523
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 5: eleven of your PIDs the things one way and you

524
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 5: go against that. But at the second trial, the DA

525
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 5: is saying that I in one of the witnesses, Havel Poe,

526
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 5: didn't really change his testimony. We had his testimony read

527
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 5: into the record because throughout the whole thing he never

528
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 5: identified me. He only referred to me as looking similar

529
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 5: to one of the guys Sean Belton recants. But it's

530
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 5: I can't really consider every canton because he went back

531
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 5: to the initial statement that he never seen anything. The

532
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 5: other person that they say picked me out of a

533
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 5: photo overrate, he never signed on none of the pitches.

534
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 5: But the detective is saying I made a monk next

535
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 5: to the pitcher that he picked out because he wouldn't

536
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 5: sign it. It's like that don't even make sense. The

537
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 5: only only witness that they had was jose Manchakoti that

538
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 5: actually positively picked me out of a lineup.

539
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: And we find out later that the state's sole remaining witness,

540
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: jose Machakot. The testimony on which the whole case rested,

541
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,479
Speaker 1: was not the humble barber that the state made him

542
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: out to be, but actually a full time drug dealer,

543
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: right prone to violence and under a joint investigation by

544
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: the FBI and NYPD. And all you needed was your

545
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: star witness Kenean Johnson to show up and counter Machakot,

546
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: just like she did it the first trial.

547
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 5: But at the second trial, I'm not with my girlfriend anymore,

548
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 5: so our contact is kind of really touching goal where

549
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 5: she knowed I'm only calling to notify her court dates

550
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 5: and what's going on with my life, which she's trying

551
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 5: to avoid. I guess I don't know. But in Keneine Johnson,

552
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 5: the day before she was supposed to come in or

553
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 5: two days before, we spoke, and then I didn't hear

554
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 5: nothing from her. My lawyer said he spoke to her

555
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 5: and she was supposed to be coming in, and then

556
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 5: she didn't show up, but she was still being nice

557
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 5: to him on the phone. He called her again and

558
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 5: then she cursed him out. She told him that he

559
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 5: sent police to her house that like one in the morning.

560
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 5: But we learned that day in the courtroom that it

561
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 5: wasn't actually my lawyer that sent the police, that it

562
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 5: was the district attorney who subpoenaed her, even though in

563
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 5: court she said, I never planned on calling this girl

564
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 5: as a witness because I don't know what she's gonna say,

565
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 5: even though she heard what my witness said at the

566
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 5: first trial. It was well known at my case that

567
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 5: her mother didn't like me. But they stills the peene

568
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 5: at her and send police to her house at like

569
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 5: one in the morning while her mother's house, which actually

570
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 5: infuriated her mother and caused her mother to kick her out.

571
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,239
Speaker 5: That right there pretty much stilled the deal as far

572
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 5: as her coming to court. And at that point I

573
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 5: was asking, like, put me on the stand. If she's

574
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 5: not going to come in, I'm the only thing we

575
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 5: got left. You ain't do nothing else with nobody else,

576
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 5: So put me understand like they're gonna eat you alive,

577
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 5: which your prior history and stuff. They eat you alive,

578
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 5: and the jury see that, and they're going to find

579
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 5: you guilty. That's the last thing I wanted. So I'm

580
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 5: no lawyer. Let him guide me and tell me guilty.

581
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: Anyone who's listening is probably wondering right now, well, if

582
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: I was representing him back then I would have checked

583
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: to cell phone records, or I would have checked the

584
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: cab records. You could have gotten a hold of the

585
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: cab company and see if anybody because you took a

586
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: cab right, and none of that stuff was done right.

587
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 5: The weird thing is, out of all of the easy

588
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 5: stuff that we think of that could have been done,

589
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 5: my attorney at the time hired a chiropractor or child

590
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 5: doctor to do medical examine or work. And I've never

591
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 5: even seen the medical examine of work or any paperwork

592
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 5: that he had done. But he didn't go and check

593
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 5: a cab. He didn't go and speak to none of

594
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 5: these witnesses that's in the DD files from the police reports.

595
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 5: But you found adopted the player as a medical examiner

596
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 5: from your office building. It's sad to say, but if

597
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,479
Speaker 5: you don't have money to actually pay for a lawyer,

598
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 5: then the justice system doesn't really work for you. It's

599
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 5: rare that it does. You really come across lawyers like

600
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 5: Susan and Liz or people like you that actually go

601
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 5: out of their way to help somebody out to show

602
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 5: that they're innocent. And I appreciate every bit of it. Look,

603
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 5: the officer is telling me that I have to get

604
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 5: off the phone. He's pressing down because of the timeframe.

605
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 5: I guess because we was really only supposed to get

606
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 5: like that by our phone calls. No problem, it's gonna

607
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 5: do it around a couple of guys that that are

608
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 5: friendly here and know my situation that wanted to make

609
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 5: sure that everything was all right. But we'll back either

610
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 5: today or tomorrow or whenever.

611
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 4: I can.

612
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 5: Thank you again, Thank you again. I appreciate y'all, and

613
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 5: I hope you will have a nice day. I will

614
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 5: speak to you soon.

615
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll be back in Tye for sure.

616
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 4: All right, La hi Jay.

617
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: What an unbelievably calm and gentle spirit he's got. It's here.

618
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: He is in this chaotic situation in an actual security

619
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: prison in the time of COVID, with people whose phone

620
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: time he's sort of you know, borrowing or whatever, and

621
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: guards who are going hey, you know, and yet he

622
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: is so focused, which makes me even more sad thinking

623
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: about the lost potential that that simple act of kindness

624
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 1: from that parole officer twenty something years ago could have

625
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: just avoided this whole thing. And God knows what he'd

626
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: be doing with his life now. Contributing to society and

627
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: probably building a family and everything else. So meanwhile the

628
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: story goes on. Mister Machacote was murdered by a drug

629
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: dealer five months after James's second trial, Yes, after he

630
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: was trying to rob the drug dealer for the second

631
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: time in a month. So yeah, he was tortured and killed.

632
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: And I mean, this is some Quentin Tarantino stuff now,

633
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,479
Speaker 1: but this is the guy that the authorities were painting

634
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: to be a wonderful citizen who was bravely coming forward

635
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: and now he's a simple barber and blah blah blah.

636
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: So that's all out the window. But there was also

637
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: Brady violations in this case, right, so can you talk?

638
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: Can you speak to that?

639
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 6: So we learned this the hearing was going on, the

640
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 6: actual innocence hearing that we litigated last summer and we're

641
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 6: appealing now. It was actual innocence and ineffective assistance of counsel.

642
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 6: That's when we finally got eight witnesses in to talk

643
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 6: and support James's story of innocence. So during our hearing,

644
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,439
Speaker 6: I reached out to the assistant US attorney Because people

645
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 6: were prosecuted federally for killing Machakodi and through it I

646
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 6: met the FBI agent who told me that at the

647
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 6: time of the trial, Jose Machakoti was under their investigation.

648
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 6: It was a joint NYPD FBI investigation into drug dealing,

649
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 6: major drug dealing in Brownsville and lo and Behold. In

650
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 6: the spring, which was when the second trial was happening,

651
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 6: a confidential informant was buying huge quantities of heroin and

652
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 6: cocaine from Matchakodi. Now we don't know if the assistant

653
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 6: district attorney knew that, but it's hard to believe that

654
00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 6: the detective who used to be a narcotics detective Brownsville

655
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 6: did not know that this man was a one of

656
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 6: the major most violent drug dealers in Brooklyn and be

657
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 6: under you know, investigation by the FBI.

658
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 4: So that was never disclosed.

659
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 1: No, that would have been an inconvenient fact to bring

660
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: up as they were trying to present him as the

661
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: perfect witness.

662
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 4: Right, So he was so brave.

663
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, So there's the Brady violation because this wouldn't be

664
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: complete without that, right, right.

665
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 6: So they have an obligation to turn over this information

666
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 6: that they knew about, and that's what we believe happened here,

667
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 6: and yes, it does seem like that happens all the time.

668
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,760
Speaker 4: And what was in it for Matchic Cody.

669
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 6: You know, I don't want to go down to deep

670
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 6: a rabbit hole of conspiracy theories, but he was on

671
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 6: parole the night of this murder. He had violated parole

672
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 6: by being out past his curfew. And the fight that

673
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 6: Jay was referring to a lot of the police reports

674
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 6: say a Spanish guy wearing a fur coat grabbed a

675
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 6: bottle within a fight on the floor. That was Machic Cody,

676
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 6: So that was also a violation of paroles. So I

677
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 6: don't know whether they threatened him with having him locked up,

678
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 6: whether there was something corrupt going on. You know, it

679
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 6: was the seventy fifth Precinct, which is notorious. It has

680
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 6: had some problems with corruption over the years. I don't

681
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 6: know what happened, even the FBI agent, although he said,

682
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 6: you know, he was on a bad guy list. That's

683
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 6: how he referred to matcha coody, which is a computer

684
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 6: database that you're supposed to check for any witness And

685
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 6: in fact, the day they interviewed the witnesses at the club,

686
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 6: they did HIDA checks on those witnesses, but there's no

687
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 6: hi to check in the paperwork for MATCHA Cody. So

688
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 6: there's just something fishy about Matchacode and why they're so

689
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 6: protective of him. And all we do know is that

690
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 6: when the prosecutor got up in summation and said, he's

691
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 6: such a credible witness, and you know, he's credible because

692
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 6: he was so honest about his past and now he's

693
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 6: a barber. Well, he might have been honest about his past,

694
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 6: but he wasn't really honest about his present. So you know,

695
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 6: in addition to the problems with you know, ide evidence,

696
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 6: in a situation like that, you also have this unsavory

697
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 6: character pretending to be someone that he's not.

698
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: Wow, it's exhausted. This one's actually.

699
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 4: Tell me about it. I'm still writing the brief for the.

700
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: Appeal, so none of that's disclosed to the defense of

701
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: James's second trial, right, and we know about the whole

702
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: Matchakuote thing. Of course, it's almost like an exclamation point

703
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 1: on the whole thing that he ends up. I mean,

704
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,399
Speaker 1: I'm sorry the guy got murdered, but such a short

705
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:42,280
Speaker 1: time after this, as if to really just drive this home,

706
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: you know, he ends up in like a scene from

707
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: Reservoir Dogs being tortured to death by a guy who

708
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: he was trying to rob for a second time, a

709
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: drug dealer.

710
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 6: I mean, nice witness, right, And the first time he

711
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 6: entered at gunpoint and tied them up and robbed them.

712
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 4: So it wasn't his first rodeo, no, And.

713
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: It sounds like they turned the tables on him. And

714
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: then he, yes, he met his demise and took this

715
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 1: false testimony he presented to the grave with him.

716
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 4: Yes, Now you know, we.

717
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 1: Get to the post conviction investigation and of course you

718
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 1: had a meeting with the conviction Review Unit in Brooklyn

719
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 1: and this would seem to be one little ray of light.

720
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: So where do we stand with that?

721
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 6: So that was actually before I became involved in the case.

722
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,919
Speaker 6: Susan Epstein, who did the appeal and did a phenomenal investigation,

723
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 6: brought the witnesses to the conviction review unit.

724
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 4: They had the case incredibly for five years.

725
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 6: It's not exactly clear what happened, but one refrain that

726
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 6: is throughout the transcripts of those interviews is why didn't

727
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 6: you come forward sooner? The assistant district attorney assigned to

728
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 6: this case just seemed very suspicious from the beginning, and

729
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 6: she gave some of them a really hard timing. But

730
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 6: she got a lot of this information. I mean, she

731
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 6: went to prisons and she spoke to Jamel Black, who's

732
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 6: currently incarcerated, and he told her.

733
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:19,720
Speaker 4: That it was Tay who did the shooting.

734
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 6: And she also fixated on some inconsistencies that I think

735
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 6: are not material. The story that was told was coherent.

736
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 6: Each witness corroborated one another. The vast majority of the

737
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 6: witnesses told them that Jay's hair was short. He cut

738
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 6: his hair because he had some kind of skin condition.

739
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 6: So just like you'd remember a party because you were

740
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,959
Speaker 6: throwing up all night, you'd remember that someone had short

741
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 6: hair because they thought.

742
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:44,720
Speaker 4: It was ringworm.

743
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 6: It's not entirely clear that's what it was, but it

744
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 6: was some skin condition that they remembered and his hair

745
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 6: was short. But they handle this information and honestly, I

746
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 6: don't know why they dragged their feet and they never

747
00:39:57,680 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 6: came right out and said we don't believe you, we

748
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 6: think s guilty. Even after we brought the motion and

749
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 6: started the hearing, they said to the press, you know,

750
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 6: we're still looking into it, or something to that effect.

751
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 4: But for some reason, they just were unpersuaded.

752
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: That's weird. I mean, look, there's even inside of a

753
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 1: convictor of you unit like Brooklyn, where we'd like to

754
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: think that everybody is on top of their game. I

755
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: don't know, I can't really explain. You have these witnesses

756
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 1: who are actually bravely coming forward now, right, and there's

757
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: lots of them, right. It's not like this is one person.

758
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: These are people who are, you know, members of the community,

759
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: who are not kids anymore either. And I think it's

760
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,479
Speaker 1: also worthwhile to mention why James's brother Daniel and Tina

761
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: Black were unavailable to testify. Tina, a young woman who

762
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: named James in the first place, is sadly no longer

763
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: with us. In twenty thirteen, she died of complications related

764
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: to the very diabetes that had kept her from the

765
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: party that faithful night all the way back in two

766
00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 1: thousand and four. And sadly, Daniel, James's younger brother, who

767
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 1: put him in the cab that night, tragically was murdered

768
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: in twenty twelve. So now the Brooklyn cru hasn't come

769
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: to a decision, and they still could do something about

770
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 1: it if they so choose, But you and Susan Epstein

771
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,479
Speaker 1: weren't going to wait around for that, and that brings

772
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: us to the hearing we've been referring to this entire time.

773
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: You and Susan filed a four to forty motion, which

774
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: is New York legal leese, for a motion to set

775
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: aside the judgment that was in September twenty eighteen, and

776
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 1: you argued for James's actual innocence as well as ineffective

777
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 1: assistant of counsel and newly discovered evidence at this hearing

778
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: back in June of twenty nineteen.

779
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 6: Yes, we were pretty optimistic going into it. So we

780
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 6: had eight witnesses, including James. James went first, as you

781
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 6: saw these very intelligent, humble, low keyed and I think

782
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 6: he makes a good impression, and he went first. And

783
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 6: also so they couldn't say, oh, of course he said this.

784
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 6: He sat through the whole hearing and listened to what

785
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 6: everyone else said. So he told the story that you

786
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 6: heard about leaving because he was intoxicated. And then Jamel

787
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 6: Black came in. And one thing about Jamel Black that

788
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,760
Speaker 6: was really, I think very persuasive. He had initially refused

789
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 6: to cooperate and sent a letter to Susan saying he

790
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 6: ruined my life because James had slept with his girlfriend

791
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 6: when he was locked up at Riker's and he held

792
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 6: a grudge and he even told me when we were

793
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 6: preparing to testify, because he has a bad quality I have.

794
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 6: I get it from my father. I can really hold

795
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 6: a grudge. But he came in and he told the

796
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 6: whole story. First of all, he helped walk James out

797
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 6: to the car, but then they started to get into

798
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 6: a fight about this girlfriend again and he went inside

799
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 6: and he met up with Tay, the shooter. So he

800
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 6: told the whole story about how he got stabbed because

801
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 6: his younger brother was involved in the fight and he

802
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,879
Speaker 6: went over and he heard this guy say, you thought

803
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 6: this was over. He turned around he was step. So

804
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 6: he goes through the whole incident of how the stabbing happened,

805
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 6: and how the shooting happened, and how it was Tay,

806
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 6: and then how he told this to the police. We

807
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 6: also had the woman who cut his hair, who although

808
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 6: she didn't remember exactly when she cut it, she did

809
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:08,800
Speaker 6: remember that she told him it was breaking off and

810
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 6: that he had to cut it, and that the last

811
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 6: time she saw him his hair was short, and you

812
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 6: had Corey Hines, who was at the party in the bathroom,

813
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 6: laughing at him as he was throwing up. Sadly, his

814
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 6: brother had signed an affid David saying I put him

815
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 6: in a cab and send him to his girlfriend's house.

816
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 6: He was murdered in twenty twelve, so we didn't have

817
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 6: him as a witness. We had his affidavit and we

818
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 6: believed the judge should have allowed that into evidence, and

819
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 6: he didn't. And we had Caneine Johnson, the girlfriend who

820
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 6: didn't show up at the second trial. We actually had

821
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 6: to do what's called a material witness order to have

822
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 6: her arrested to bring her in, which I really didn't

823
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:51,800
Speaker 6: want to do. But she came in, even though she

824
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 6: was mad at me about that. She got on the stand.

825
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 6: So when that happens, they assigned an attorney to you,

826
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 6: and the attorney came in and said to the judge,

827
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 6: she's willing to testify, but she's terrified of the family.

828
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 6: And what came out on the witness stand is that

829
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 6: after she testified at the first trial, friends and family

830
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 6: of the deceased followed her not just out of the courtroom,

831
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 6: but out of the courthouse, calling her names, threatening her

832
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 6: if we're going to find out where.

833
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 4: You live, if we see you on the street.

834
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 6: And it was so bad that James's attorney put her

835
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 6: in a cab because he was afraid of her having

836
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 6: to take public transportation home.

837
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 4: So here she is.

838
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 6: She hasn't seen James since the first trial. And she

839
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 6: gets on and she essentially says exactly what she testified

840
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 6: to years before that she met him at her mother's house.

841
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,320
Speaker 6: He got out of the car. He was staggering, like

842
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 6: stupid drunkuse kind of how she put it, and threw up,

843
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 6: and she got him a ginger ale out of bodega

844
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 6: and they walked to his hands. So she told that

845
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 6: entire story. The two new witnesses that I found also

846
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 6: particularly compelling. One was in the statement by James. He

847
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 6: refers to Bo. His real name is Ernest. Ernest was

848
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 6: one of the promoters, and we found him. He was

849
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 6: willing to testify, and like a few days before he testified,

850
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 6: we asked him, well, how is it that you remember

851
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 6: that he was there? And he said, because we used

852
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 6: to have a competition about who had the better waves

853
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 6: in our hair. So I remember when he came in

854
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 6: and I was joking about whose waves were better, So

855
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 6: I'm prompted. He basically said he had short hair at

856
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 6: the time, so he said that on the witness stand.

857
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 6: And he also said somebody had thrown up by the bar,

858
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 6: and he asked the bouncer what happened here and he said, oh,

859
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 6: you know those two brothers. One of them was drunk

860
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 6: and I told them they had to leave. So that

861
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 6: was information we didn't even know about. And then lastly,

862
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 6: and maybe the most emotionally compelling witness was Tina Black Senior,

863
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 6: the mother. So she came in, you know, with the cane.

864
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 6: She's like crippled by arthritis. She basically was racked with

865
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 6: guilt that she knew her daughter. Her daughter eventually confessed

866
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 6: to her, and she went through all this stuff about

867
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 6: they got a call one day from Rikers and her

868
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 6: kids were there and she said, who's that Riker's and

869
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 6: they said James And she said, why is James at

870
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 6: Riker's And one of the sons said, ash your dumbass daughter.

871
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 6: So like she remembered little details like that, and then

872
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 6: bit by bit, her daughter revealed to her that she

873
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 6: had set James up and that he was never coming home,

874
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 6: and that she was still in love with him. So

875
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 6: that was extremely compelling testimony. So that was essentially our case.

876
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 6: It was like so many people who you know, added

877
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 6: little bits and pieces to the story and created this

878
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 6: really cohesive story about what really happened there that nobody

879
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:32,879
Speaker 6: bothered to investigate.

880
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 1: Then there's another sort of what could be seen as

881
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: a devastating blow that took place on January twenty four,

882
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: twenty twenty sixteen years to the day after Blake Harper

883
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:48,240
Speaker 1: was tragically murdered. The judge denied James Davis's wrongful conviction

884
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: motion in its entirety. I remember reading that the first time.

885
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: We were going, oh god.

886
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 6: Right, we were stunned. So he yeah, he ruled against

887
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 6: us on everything. By the end of the hearing, we

888
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,760
Speaker 6: had three points. One was that we had proved James

889
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 6: was actually innocent by clearing convincing evidence. That's the standard.

890
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 6: That his lawyer was ineffective by not doing a proper investigation.

891
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 6: He didn't even hire an investigator. That's what James was

892
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 6: referring to when he said he hired a doctor. He

893
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 6: hired a doctor who appeared to have been his brother

894
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 6: to review the medical records, so he knew what he

895
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 6: had to do to get paid to hire someone. So

896
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 6: we had an ineffective assistance of counsel point and then

897
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 6: we asked the judge to reopen the hearings so that

898
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,439
Speaker 6: we could call this FBI agent, so that we could

899
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 6: show that they would have known about this evidence that

900
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 6: Matchic Cody was not just a humble barber, but he

901
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 6: was a major drug dealer in Brooklyn. And the judge

902
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 6: refused to reopen the hearing. Originally said alzheimus a poena

903
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 6: for an FBI agent because you have to see poena them,

904
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 6: then changed his mind on that, said you didn't prove it,

905
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 6: but he didn't give us a chance to completely prove it,

906
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 6: and so he denied every aspect of a hearing. And

907
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 6: now there's really literally one stop left on this. You

908
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 6: don't get to appeal these to call them for forty

909
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 6: hearings in New York. You don't get to appeal a

910
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:10,399
Speaker 6: for forty as.

911
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 4: A matter of right.

912
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,320
Speaker 6: You have to ask permission. He's called seeking leave to appeal,

913
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 6: and we did get permission to appeal. So we are

914
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 6: in the process of writing a brief and this is

915
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 6: the last stop. We are going to the second apartment

916
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 6: at Pellet Division and asking them first and foremost to

917
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 6: find him innocent and dismiss these charges.

918
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: Do you know when that hearing is going to be.

919
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 6: We're shooting for September, hoping to get the brief filed

920
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 6: in time for September. If it's not September, it will

921
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 6: be October.

922
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 1: There is a petition and we're going to link to

923
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: it in the episode description. So for anyone who feels

924
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: outraged as I do and wants to help James, go

925
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: to our episode description and there'll be links to take

926
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 1: you to action steps that you can take.

927
00:48:57,719 --> 00:48:57,959
Speaker 4: Hello.

928
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 3: This is a prepaid collects call from an inmate at

929
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 3: New York State Department of Corrections and Community Supervision. This

930
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 3: call is subject to recording and monitoring. To accept charges,

931
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 3: press one to refuse charges, press thank you for using securists.

932
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 3: You may start the conversation now.

933
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: Hello, Oh James, glad you're back. Elizabeth and I spoke

934
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 1: a bit about your post conviction litigation and where you're

935
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: at now legally speaking.

936
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 5: I didn't know the justice system actually takes this long,

937
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 5: but I thought, maybe you know, two years. I'll be

938
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 5: back home, They'll fix this whole thing, and I'll be home.

939
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 5: Two years turned into seventeen and I'm still fighting and

940
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 5: trying to convince them that they actually locked up the

941
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 5: wrong person.

942
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 1: And then, to compound this tragedy again, the little brother

943
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 1: that you felt so responsible for was murdered in twenty twelve.

944
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't possibly begin to imagine your pain,

945
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 1: but your grandmother's still here.

946
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 5: My brother and my grandmother is like my oldest friends

947
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 5: in the world. My grandmother been there for as long

948
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 5: as I knew. I know she know my pain because

949
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 5: she lost some mother and she lost her daughter the

950
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 5: same way I did. Well, not the daughter, but my

951
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 5: mother the same way she lost some mother. And my

952
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 5: brother was there with me through everything. So it was

953
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 5: like I lost out on with little I was able

954
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 5: to spend his life with him in seventeen years. In

955
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 5: my grandmother's life, she just turned eighty June nineteenth, like

956
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 5: she was sixty three. I dismissed all of these birthdays

957
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 5: and times to spend with her where I would have

958
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 5: been an adult, where I could actually because I just

959
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 5: I think that was my first Christmas ever, actually really

960
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 5: buying my grandmother my own gift, and she was so

961
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 5: happy for that. Then here for every year, since it's

962
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 5: something I didn't even do it, I prayed for her

963
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,399
Speaker 5: every night. He had to be strong for me. That's

964
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,280
Speaker 5: one of the reasons that I lived. For my grandmother,

965
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 5: by the grace of God, she just turned eighties you

966
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 5: on nineteen. My mother was murdered two weeks or yeah,

967
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 5: a week and some change at the Mother's Day, which

968
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 5: was hard for my grandmother, and then my brother on

969
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 5: Father's Day right before her birthday. So it's like I've

970
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 5: had a real, real rough journey. Her journey is just

971
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 5: as rough. So this is why that's like my closest

972
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 5: friend right there outside of my brother that passed away.

973
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 5: The same beatings I got. He got the same little

974
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 5: budget clothes or whatever you want to.

975
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:38,399
Speaker 1: Call him I got.

976
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 5: He got. He's in in the neighborhood, in the house

977
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 5: over not having our parents or my mother being the crackhead.

978
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 5: He got the same thing. We endured everything together. So

979
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 5: it was like, it's the only person that really really

980
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 5: know my struggle. So to lose him wild hair right.

981
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 6: Oh.

982
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't imagine your story. Your life has exhausted,

983
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 1: has taken so much out of me, and I've only

984
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 1: listened to it. I can't imagine having lived it. We

985
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:13,919
Speaker 1: need to do everything we can to bring you home, James,

986
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 1: I want to thank you. I mean, we have, as

987
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 1: our regular listeners know, at the end of each episode,

988
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: we have our featured segment, which I call closing Arguments,

989
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: and this is where I first of all, thank you,

990
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,320
Speaker 1: and then I just kick back in my chair and

991
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: turn my microphone off and leave my headphones on and

992
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,399
Speaker 1: turn it over to you for whatever else you think

993
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 1: needs to be said. So now Liz, over to you

994
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 1: for closing arguments.

995
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,359
Speaker 6: All right, Well, first of all, thank you so much

996
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 6: for taking the time to listen and to speak to

997
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,240
Speaker 6: James and to get to know what a good person

998
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 6: he is, what a smart, humble, kind person he is,

999
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 6: and for giving us this chance to tell a story

1000
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 6: to as many people as possible. There was from the

1001
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,320
Speaker 6: day he was arrested, I'm going to get emotional me

1002
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 6: clear and convincing evidence of his innocence. Not just clear

1003
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 6: and convincing, compelling evidence of his innocence, And he told

1004
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 6: everyone what they needed to do to learn that he

1005
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 6: was innocent. From the beginning, he told detective Hutchinson go

1006
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,320
Speaker 6: speak to He listed about six names, and you know,

1007
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 6: from those six names there would have been twenty five

1008
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 6: thirty other people because this was a huge party and

1009
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 6: a lot of people knew him. But whether it was

1010
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 6: tunnel vision, a lack of respect or indifference, Detective Hutchinson

1011
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 6: did nothing to investigate. The prosecutor did nothing to investigate,

1012
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 6: and the person who, under the law, has the obligation

1013
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 6: to investigate, did not do so. He kept telling James, well,

1014
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 6: it's their burden, it's not our burden. But this is

1015
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 6: a twenty one year old facing murder charges, facing life

1016
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,720
Speaker 6: in prison, which he's now serving a life in prison sentence.

1017
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 6: Seems to me, you have both a legal and a

1018
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 6: moral obligation to do everything you can to prove his innocence,

1019
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 6: to prove he's not guilty. That's the standard at a

1020
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 6: trial when you have so much evidence, it's almost obscene

1021
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 6: to turn your back to it. And yet that's what

1022
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:18,399
Speaker 6: happened at this trial. And yet fifteen years afterward, these

1023
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 6: people came forward and you know, they may know each

1024
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 6: other from the community, but somewhere in their thirties, some

1025
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 6: were in their forties, some were in their fifties. They

1026
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,240
Speaker 6: weren't all hanging out together conspiring to tell a story

1027
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 6: to help James. They told different pieces, and what they

1028
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 6: didn't remember they said they didn't remember, but each and

1029
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 6: every one of them painted a very vivid picture of

1030
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 6: a young man who loved his brother very much, who

1031
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 6: went to the party because he wanted to celebrate with

1032
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 6: his brother, who got stumbled down, throwing up, drunk, left

1033
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 6: the party kind of out of it, met his girlfriend,

1034
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 6: spent the night at her aunt's house, and wasn't even

1035
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 6: there when the shooting happened. And yet, incredibly, once again,

1036
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 6: the judge chose not to listen to James. In fact,

1037
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 6: in his decision he said, well, you can't listen to

1038
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:08,800
Speaker 6: anything he said because he's the defendant here, he's convicted,

1039
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 6: and of course he has an overwhelming interest in the outcome,

1040
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:16,240
Speaker 6: which is not the law. So he just disregarded everything

1041
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 6: James said, despite the fact that most of it was

1042
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:24,759
Speaker 6: corroborated and substantiated by the other witnesses. He also said,

1043
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 6: you had to have direct evidence. There was no direct

1044
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 6: evidence that James went to his girlfriend's house that night. Well,

1045
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 6: there was a huge amount of circumstantial evidence. They walked

1046
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 6: him to the car, so they didn't see the cab leave.

1047
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 6: I mean, circumstantial evidence is extremely compelling and used all

1048
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 6: the time in court. So he discounted circumstantial evidence. And

1049
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 6: he also wouldn't let us bring in Daniel's AffA David,

1050
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 6: even though again this federal law says, when you're talking

1051
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 6: about actual innocence, you're allowed to bring in everything, even

1052
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 6: if it wouldn't come in ordinarily at a trial. So

1053
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 6: Daniel is dead, he was murdered, but we have his Affidavid.

1054
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:03,919
Speaker 4: And guess what it says.

1055
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 6: I put him in a cab and it went to

1056
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 6: Caneen's house. So we did have that piece, but we

1057
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 6: weren't allowed to put it in. So once again justice

1058
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 6: was denied for James. And I think we've already been

1059
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 6: through just the shaky, questionable evidence that was the prosecution.

1060
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 6: This is the last chance. There's nothing after the second

1061
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 6: Department of Pellet Division. And I just hope people hear

1062
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 6: this and they're rightfully outraged and they demand justice for

1063
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 6: James because he really is innocent and he deserves to

1064
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 6: go home.

1065
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,760
Speaker 1: That was well said, Thank you, that beautiful closing argument. Actually,

1066
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,800
Speaker 1: and I've heard a lot of them, and now James,

1067
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 1: over to you for closing arguments. You are an incredible person.

1068
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 1: Your spirit comes through even over the phone, even in

1069
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: the most stressful situation. You are just an inspiring guy.

1070
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: What can I say? And so we're going to keep

1071
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:03,800
Speaker 1: fighting for you out here, and I thank you for

1072
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,400
Speaker 1: being on the show and shining a light on this

1073
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 1: awful injustice. And now it's turn it over to you

1074
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 1: for closing arguments.

1075
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 5: I want to say thank you to you again. Thank

1076
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 5: you to Elizabeth Felber, Susan Epstein, the whole Legal Aid Society,

1077
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 5: everybody's that's been helping me with my case. Without them,

1078
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 5: I probably would have gave up this fight. They kept

1079
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:28,360
Speaker 5: me strong and kept me motivated. With all of the

1080
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 5: stuff that's going on in the world today, is so

1081
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 5: much on my mind. I think that our justice system

1082
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 5: really needs to be looked at on the outside and

1083
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 5: on the inside. The treatment is really really no different,

1084
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 5: and it's going all the way. Starts at law enforcement

1085
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 5: with the investigations and the things that they may do.

1086
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 5: If they make one bad mistake, it may change somebody's

1087
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 5: life forever. And they're human like everybody else. Everybody's entitled

1088
00:57:56,360 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 5: to make mistakes. But when you don't try to makes

1089
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 5: your mistakes, you just lie about them or cover them up,

1090
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 5: you only make things worse for people that should actually

1091
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 5: have a fair shot. You're stealing people lives away from people.

1092
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 5: People families actually still love them and care about them,

1093
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 5: and they're suffering. Just as much more effort should be

1094
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 5: done on getting things right, opposed to just worrying about

1095
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 5: convictions and putting people away. Sometimes, because in our hate

1096
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 5: we make poor judgment decisions, we send people away that

1097
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 5: shouldn't be locked up. People do deserve to have a

1098
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 5: fair shot. That whether it be trial, grand jury hearings,

1099
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 5: or even the benefit of the doubt when the officer

1100
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 5: comes and the rescue. It's no different on the inside.

1101
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 5: Not everybody in here deserves to be treated so harshly.

1102
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 5: When you're already sentenced for a crime, you've already been punished.

1103
00:58:56,840 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 5: You don't come to prison to be on the shmall

1104
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 5: or torture. You come to correct whatever bad behavior you

1105
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 5: was doing. You do your time that they gave you,

1106
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 5: because that's what they say, if you did the crime,

1107
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 5: through the time. But I'm not supposed to be tortured

1108
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 5: and abused what about the people that actually didn't do

1109
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:22,320
Speaker 5: the crime. That's just like a casualty of war. Therefore,

1110
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 5: let him get tortured and beaten and everything too. It

1111
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 5: don't seem like fear and impart your trials are what

1112
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:35,439
Speaker 5: actually takes place. They label you and then they send

1113
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 5: you away, and then they make it hard view to

1114
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 5: prove your innocence to get back out. Even when you

1115
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 5: do prove it, it's still hard for them to let

1116
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 5: you go. They're saying, well, it sounds like he's telling

1117
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:49,959
Speaker 5: the truth, and it's the same thing. And we learned

1118
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 5: that these other guys were liars and all of these

1119
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 5: other things. But I don't know, maybe he's still guilty.

1120
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 5: Let's just keep him in there and double trouble, quadruple

1121
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 5: check and let him waste some more of his life away,

1122
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 5: even though he might be totally innocent, and it seems

1123
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 5: like he is from what we've been looking at, but

1124
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:12,760
Speaker 5: not one hundred percent sure. He didn't prove it to

1125
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 5: me one hundred percent. Like that's that's crazy, that's insane,

1126
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 5: that what a human life is worth.

1127
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you

1128
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud

1129
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll

1130
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

1131
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

1132
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd

1133
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

1134
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three times OSCAR

1135
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

1136
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

1137
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

1138
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:15,240
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one