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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know from how Stuff Works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hey you welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark.

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Speaker 1: There's child to be Chuck Bryant. Uh and this is

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Speaker 1: stuff you should ail satan Man that would have gotten

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Speaker 1: you locked up a few years ago. Yeah, so I

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Speaker 1: want to go ahead and say that I would like

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Speaker 1: to do one on Satanism. Yeah, for sure, the religion

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Speaker 1: misunderstood may include the Church of Satan Will maybe those

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Speaker 1: are two separate things. Uh. Um. And the p MRC

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Speaker 1: is that the Tipperate Cord organiz this? Yeah, I just this.

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Speaker 1: This brought back a lot of memories because we lived

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Speaker 1: through the Satanic Bannock for sure, and I remember it

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Speaker 1: very distinctly, Like I can imagine young Baptist I was afraid.

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Speaker 1: I can imagine I was very scared. Um. I remember

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Speaker 1: like growing up thinking, you know, some of the big

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Speaker 1: kids are sacrificing things in the woods. Yeah yeah, Um,

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Speaker 1: which is I mean like that was just part of

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Speaker 1: your normal, everyday thing, like walking around thinking that was happening.

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Speaker 1: But um, it turns out in retrospect it was all

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Speaker 1: almost entirely made up. Yeah. There was also and imagine

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Speaker 1: every neighborhood or town had this with There was off

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Speaker 1: Memorial Drive that was Satan House where supposedly devil worshipers. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: did you have one in your town? Yeah? Yeah, It's

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Speaker 1: so funny to me to think about that. Now. They

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Speaker 1: were probably just nice, normal people. It's probably some old

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Speaker 1: uh shut ins, some old folks, elderly folks who just

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Speaker 1: couldn't get out of the house much, right, they murdered

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Speaker 1: anybody for years? You ever noticed you never see anyone. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like kind of dilapidated or run down

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Speaker 1: because they're old. Uh. And we want to issue a

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Speaker 1: big c o A here, parents, this is got some

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Speaker 1: pretty grizzly stuff in it. You probably don't want your

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Speaker 1: kids listening to this, even though it was all made up.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, but there's some detail in some of this

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Speaker 1: that's I found myself even going, oh, we have to

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Speaker 1: say that. Yeah, so uh yeah, just it's rated are

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Speaker 1: maybe even X for content? I'm thinking, Chuck, we should

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Speaker 1: put together the Times America Lost its mind suite include

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Speaker 1: this UM, Associative identity disorder UM, deep programming, could deep

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Speaker 1: program Salem Witchcraft trials, McCarthyism, McCarthyism, that's right. Yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna do it one of these days, will actually put

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Speaker 1: some of these suites together. Yeah, they exists her mental

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Speaker 1: sweets right. Okay, thanks man for letting off the hook. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know if you guys have picked up

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Speaker 1: on it or not, but I keep saying like they

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Speaker 1: never really existed. It wasn't actually true, It wasn't real.

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Speaker 1: This whole idea that we're talking about, from the roughly

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Speaker 1: the mid eighties till about the mid nineties, about a

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Speaker 1: ten year period, America as a whole was gripped by again,

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Speaker 1: there's no other way to put it, Satanic panic. This

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Speaker 1: idea that there were cults of Satan worshippers who were

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Speaker 1: very widespread, more than you would think, who were abducting, killing, raping,

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Speaker 1: molesting our children, mutilating animals, and who had been doing

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Speaker 1: it for a very long time. In America was just

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Speaker 1: now waking up to this reality. It's your teachers, it's

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Speaker 1: the cops, it's the mayor of your town. There's a

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Speaker 1: battle between good and evil very much going on right now.

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Speaker 1: And somehow, some way and people are still studying this. Um.

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Speaker 1: America clomped onto this idea and ran with it like

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Speaker 1: it was for real. The idea that they were satan murderous,

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Speaker 1: child molesting Satanic cults operating almost openly in the United

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Speaker 1: States was a very deep and widespread belief, not just

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Speaker 1: among religious people, although they were at the forefront of

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Speaker 1: this um, but among people who were writing academic papers

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Speaker 1: and creating television shows in the news. Um. It was

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Speaker 1: people in the courts were subscribed to this. It was

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Speaker 1: just it was a it was what's called a moral panic. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And when I was reading this, even though I lived

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Speaker 1: through it, I kept thinking, how in the world did

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Speaker 1: this happen in the nineteen eighties. Nineteen eighties, not the

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Speaker 1: sixteen forties, right, not hundreds uh. And it turns out

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of reasons why. And we gotta go

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Speaker 1: back in time a little bit to touch on the

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Speaker 1: early reasons. You gotta go back in time. So that

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Speaker 1: should be our way Back Machine theme song. That was

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Speaker 1: just two darn loud. What I was continuing with the

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Speaker 1: back of the Future references. What was too darn loud?

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Speaker 1: Remember Huey Lewis when he auditioned, he said, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: that's just right, thank you, thank you. Uh. And by

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Speaker 1: the way. This is not just in the United States.

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Speaker 1: Apparently it was in the UK, Australia, Canada, South Africa,

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Speaker 1: and South Africa still has a cult crimes division. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I believe it. So. Um Robert Lamb wrote this article

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Speaker 1: of stuff to blow your mind. Uh. And we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be drawing from other articles as well, which will name

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Speaker 1: drop along the way. I guess one from Slate that

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Speaker 1: was good. There's some name dropping. I've got one for you.

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Speaker 1: I'll hit it up later. So part of the groundwork

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Speaker 1: was laid for this in ancient history. Uh. And Robert

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Speaker 1: does a good job in pointing out that there is

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Speaker 1: long especially when it comes to Christian theology. Long been

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Speaker 1: a divide between us and them, heaven and hell, two sides,

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Speaker 1: good and evil, good and evil, light and dark. I

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Speaker 1: was going to repeat that too. What else, Uh, Yin

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Speaker 1: and Yang Ye's super Christian? No, actually that I think

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Speaker 1: Yin and Yang worked together, right, Sure, Yeah, we should

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Speaker 1: do one on Yin Yang. But a lot of people, Um,

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Speaker 1: it's not just Christians, chuck, there's humans subscribe to it

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Speaker 1: in group out group mentality. Yeah. Absolutely, Like I took

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Speaker 1: an anthropology class once and the professor was like, try

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Speaker 1: to go a day without using words like us them, We, yeah, they,

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Speaker 1: It's impossible, virtually impossible. Politics. That's just the way our

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Speaker 1: minds go. In group out group, and our group is

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Speaker 1: safe and good. Their group is potentially threatening and possibly bad.

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Speaker 1: We don't know, absolutely So throughout history this has come

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Speaker 1: up again and again and again, and innocent people have

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Speaker 1: been persecuted for doing nothing at all. One good example

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Speaker 1: are the Jewish people. Um Christians accused Jews in fourteen

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Speaker 1: seventy five of using blood for kidnapped Christians children and rituals,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty ironic because the Romans just a few

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Speaker 1: hundred years before had accused the Christians of bathing and

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Speaker 1: dining and feasting on baby's blood. Us and them once

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Speaker 1: again baby's blood to go to thing for vilifying an

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Speaker 1: out group. Oh yeah, but you'll see baby's blood in

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Speaker 1: a lot of these cases, because that's I guess, the

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Speaker 1: hardest blood to get ahold of. It's expensive blood in

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Speaker 1: the most grizzly witchcraft. Everyone. Of course we did, we

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Speaker 1: do one on the Salem witch trials or just McCarthy ism,

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Speaker 1: we did one, I believe. Yeah, Well, let's say we

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Speaker 1: have and if we haven't we will like remember on

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Speaker 1: like them being high on air. Goot, yeah, we did

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Speaker 1: something like that. Okay, alright, So fifteenth century you had

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Speaker 1: witchcraft persecutions all over Europe, innocent women being h killed, drowned, burned,

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Speaker 1: you name it. Um. And of course not ad us

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Speaker 1: was true in all cases. Uh. When it comes to art,

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Speaker 1: they laid the groundwork, and the nineteenth century, the French

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Speaker 1: Romantic artist loved painting stuff about Satan and witchcraft and h.

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Speaker 1: By the nineteen twenties and the West, we had a

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Speaker 1: pretty firm established groundwork for believing and things like demons

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Speaker 1: and Satan and a fiery hell. Uh and people who

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Speaker 1: who worshiped this Satan. Yeah, and uh, this the weird

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Speaker 1: thing is, Chuck, is there's this still to this day,

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Speaker 1: there's this idea that at some point back in antiquity

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Speaker 1: at least, there were devil worshipers who like killed for Satan.

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Speaker 1: And all of this was born out of whole cloth,

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Speaker 1: fabricated from people who were doing the religious persecution along

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Speaker 1: the way and the people who are being tortured to

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Speaker 1: confess into this kind of stuff. It was all just fabricated.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that it was old the fact that

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Speaker 1: it was sensational, and the fact that it had been

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Speaker 1: repeated so many times it gained traction to become this,

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Speaker 1: to gain this idea that it is historical fact. At

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Speaker 1: some point people just take it as fact. But it's

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Speaker 1: not true. No, it's not true. It's never never been

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Speaker 1: satanic Satanic death cults in the United States or anywhere else. Right,

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Speaker 1: these people have never existed. Now that is not to

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Speaker 1: say that people haven't killed in the name of Satan

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Speaker 1: or anything like that, but there's never been any kind

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Speaker 1: of Satanic death cult ever in the history of the

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Speaker 1: world as far as we can ever tell. It's all

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Speaker 1: made up right, And we want to go further by

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Speaker 1: saying that these people who have killed in the name

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Speaker 1: of Satan are actually an example of life imitating art.

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Speaker 1: They're inspired by the the fictitious myth because they're gullible

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Speaker 1: and buy into it just as much as the people

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Speaker 1: who think that this stuff is out there too, Like

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Speaker 1: Richard Ramirez, Sure, and he was driven by eton or

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Speaker 1: something like that. There was a girl in the eighties

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Speaker 1: in Georgia who supposedly killed a friend um and then

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Speaker 1: performed a Satanic Ritchell It's like this stuff did happen,

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Speaker 1: but it happened as a result of the hysteria. It

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Speaker 1: is a positive feedback, absolutely. Uh So now we're in

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Speaker 1: the twentieth century and the roots of Satanic panic can

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Speaker 1: be found all throughout the entertainment industry. Books. There was

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Speaker 1: one in ninety seven by Herbert Gorman called The Place

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Speaker 1: called Dagon, which was very influential and radical at the time. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Complete fiction, of course, but that doesn't, um, doesn't stop

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Speaker 1: it from establishing firmer roots that this could be a thing. Right,

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Speaker 1: that's something that kind of keeps coming up again and again. Um.

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Speaker 1: A movie or a work of fiction will establish some storyline,

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Speaker 1: and then somebody will have read it and told a

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Speaker 1: friend about it or something like that, and then it

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Speaker 1: becomes a game of telephone along the way, somebody stops

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Speaker 1: saying I read in this work of fiction, right, or

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Speaker 1: I saw in this movie this happened. Instead it becomes

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Speaker 1: this happened to a friend of mine's sister. Yeah, which

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Speaker 1: we'll get to. Urban legend is one theory, of course. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and I know we did a podcast on that. Uh.

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Speaker 1: A couple of movies came out, one horror film called

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Speaker 1: The Devil rides out with the great Christopher Lee because

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Speaker 1: he was in every weird movie. He was great man,

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Speaker 1: he was the tall man and phantasm right, No, who's

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Speaker 1: that then? Chris really was? Was he? Oh no, that's

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Speaker 1: Angus somebody. You're right. Christopher Lee was the guy from

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Speaker 1: like the Wicker Man, and I mean dozens and dozens

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Speaker 1: of horror movies played Dracula a lot. Rosemary's Baby also

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Speaker 1: came out that year, which was way more mainstream, big

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Speaker 1: big hit movie. Uh yeah, really good. Still very creepy

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Speaker 1: movie with Mia Pharaoh and Cassavettis and Charles CrowdIn. Weirdly,

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Speaker 1: I guess it's not weird, but I just associate him

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Speaker 1: with comedy. Yeah, but he always plays a straight man,

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Speaker 1: so he could go back and forth. Yeah, he could

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Speaker 1: could straddle worlds. So those movies were were huge as

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Speaker 1: far as planning, and you know, of course other things

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Speaker 1: like The Omen and The Exorcist, and it was just

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Speaker 1: it was just a big time for talking about Satan

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Speaker 1: and movies. Yeah, it's very popular. And what's interesting is

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Speaker 1: you can trace it back to and initially that um

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Speaker 1: book the Place called Dagon, which inspired HP Lovecraft. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that started at all basically uh music of course, which

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Speaker 1: if we ever do one on the PMRC will get

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Speaker 1: to that and backmasking more heavily. But uh, Satanic imagery

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Speaker 1: and everything from like Iron Maiden to King Diamond and

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Speaker 1: remember they got hauled in the court for back masking

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Speaker 1: man people I know. And h then you have some

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Speaker 1: real life things, real life occult like Alistair Crowley and

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Speaker 1: Anton LaVey, who really didn't help quell satanic panic fierce

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Speaker 1: if anything, that helps set the stage now, dressing up

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Speaker 1: like with candles and and being naked with like cloaks

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Speaker 1: and pentagrams isn't gonna make people feel any better, but

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Speaker 1: that's what they're doing. And if you will, like I said,

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Speaker 1: we'll do on on Satanism. If you look at Satanism,

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Speaker 1: it's it's not let's sacrifice animals and throw blood on

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Speaker 1: each other. It's more like, hey, we're on this earth

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Speaker 1: for a short time, let's party and just live for ourselves.

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Speaker 1: It's more about hedonism and being atheist than some weird

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Speaker 1: dark occult. Alistair Crowley was darker and more cult sure,

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Speaker 1: and Anton LaVey definitely dressed his brand of Satanism up

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Speaker 1: in that kind of like dark theatrics. But the really

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Speaker 1: ironic thing about both of those guys occult stuff is that,

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Speaker 1: again it was life imitating art or life imitating fiction.

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Speaker 1: Their ideas of the black mask or the witches Sabbath

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Speaker 1: or wearing pentagrams, all that stuff came out of those

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Speaker 1: witch persecutions from before war. They were fabricated from whole cloth.

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Speaker 1: So these guys were tapping into what was already part

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Speaker 1: of the popular culture in the in the way of

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Speaker 1: what people thought of Satanism and Satanic rituals, and we're

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Speaker 1: just basically playing it up to the It was very

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Speaker 1: much so. But two people who are scared to death

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Speaker 1: of the idea that Satan is real and his worshippers

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Speaker 1: are here on earth and are ready to kill you.

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Speaker 1: Those guys scared those people and just proved that this

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Speaker 1: is very real. See look at those two Anton LaVey

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Speaker 1: Alistair Crowley proved that they are Satanic cults exactly. And

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Speaker 1: who knows what's going on behind that big, huge iron

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Speaker 1: wooden door. All right, well, let's take a break here

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna come back and talk a little bit about, uh,

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Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies um Stranger Danger panic, which factors in

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Speaker 1: all Right, it's the nineteen seventies and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: all you can hear about on the news is our

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Speaker 1: stories about child pornography, rings, murders, child murderers, kidnappings, uh,

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Speaker 1: crimes involving children in general, and not just that. Chuck. Like,

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Speaker 1: at that time, America was really waking up to the

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Speaker 1: um to just how widespread child abuse was the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 1: which is great, Yeah, it really was, because apparently it

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Speaker 1: took just a couple of doctors to really stand up

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Speaker 1: and be like, I'm not looking the other way again

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Speaker 1: on these unexplained breaks to a child's arm. Um, it's

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Speaker 1: the it's the parents. You're you're breaking your kid's arms.

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Speaker 1: It's abuse. That's wrong. Stop doing that. And as a result,

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Speaker 1: the government stood up and was like, Okay, we need

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Speaker 1: some laws here. One of the things that they enacted

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Speaker 1: were mandatory reporting laws. If you're a doctor and you

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Speaker 1: notice signs of child abuse, you have to report it.

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Speaker 1: And as a result, in ninety four, child abuse cases

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Speaker 1: went from sixty thousand nationwide to the year two thousand

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Speaker 1: there were three million reported, right, and it was because

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Speaker 1: of public education, a lot more visibility um, and then

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Speaker 1: mandatory reporting laws. But it had this cumulative effect of saying, America,

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Speaker 1: your children are being they're in danger and you need

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Speaker 1: to do something about it. And this child protection movement

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Speaker 1: grew out of it. Yeah. I also get the sense

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Speaker 1: that pre the late seventies, I think the media that

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Speaker 1: was unsavory to report on this kind of stuff, like

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Speaker 1: that's that's that family's business. Yeah, and just period it's like,

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Speaker 1: no one wants to hear about this stuff. It's awful. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And somehow it got transferred to probably to drive ratings,

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Speaker 1: like this is sensational, is what it is. Yeah, anytime

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Speaker 1: America is scared, all you have to do is poke

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Speaker 1: and product and you will get people to watch your

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Speaker 1: TV show. And it's done very frequently. It's sad and despicable,

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Speaker 1: but it happens a lot. It still does. There's another

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Speaker 1: aspect to this too, Chuck Um with the with the

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Speaker 1: child protection idea. Um. This is also a time. The

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Speaker 1: seventies especially, is when it when women started to go

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Speaker 1: back to work after they had kids. Before they may

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Speaker 1: work and then they would have kids and that was

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Speaker 1: it for their professional career. They would just stay home.

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Speaker 1: They were moms. For the rest of their time, if

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Speaker 1: they ever worked at all. Originally right now, in the

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Speaker 1: seventies and the eighties, women were having kids, going back

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Speaker 1: to work, and as a result, they were having to

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Speaker 1: leave their kids in more and more daycare workers care,

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Speaker 1: and so this idea that their children were being abused

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Speaker 1: or potentially abused really resonated with families where their kids

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Speaker 1: were in daycare and weren't like constantly under their supervision

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Speaker 1: all the time. How well do you know the people

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Speaker 1: watching your kids? How much do you trust them? Are

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Speaker 1: they Satanists? And this this fear took root because of

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Speaker 1: the um collective anxiety at the time with more and

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Speaker 1: more families putting their kids in daycare, right or they're

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Speaker 1: just latchkey kids a little older who I remember during

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Speaker 1: the Atlanta child murders, do you know where your children are?

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Speaker 1: Where your children are? It was just a time of

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Speaker 1: in a good way, people were more aware of than

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Speaker 1: ever of potential dangers for their children. So it's not

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Speaker 1: like it was all bad, but when it goes into

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Speaker 1: panic and well, we'll just see what happened. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: went from zero to just a couple of seconds. So

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Speaker 1: what happened was during the Satanic panic U. Largely it

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Speaker 1: is based around um court cases where largely daycare centers

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Speaker 1: and people who cared for children were now being accused

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Speaker 1: of some of the craziest things you could ever imagine

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Speaker 1: in your entire life. And like you said, one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons this was fueled was very much because parents

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Speaker 1: could relate to it. Uh. I mean, should we go

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Speaker 1: ahead and talk about a couple of these cases. Yeah, Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, the whole thing sounds crazy and weird and everything,

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Speaker 1: but just innocuous, I guess until you come across the

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Speaker 1: court cases and then you're like, oh, real people lost

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Speaker 1: decades of their lives because of this because gulibal people

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Speaker 1: were in position of power and lock them up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all right, let's talk about the killers. What was the

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Speaker 1: actual This is one in Texas. Yeah, in Austin and Austin, Texas. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Frances and Dan Keller ran a daycare center out of

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Speaker 1: their home and were accused of the following things, among others,

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Speaker 1: drowning and dismembering babies in front of other children, killing animals,

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Speaker 1: dogs and cats in front of children, and baby tigers,

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Speaker 1: baby tigers, that's right, Uh, taking the kids to Mexico

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Speaker 1: to be abused sexually by Mexican army soldiers and then

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Speaker 1: brought back in time for their parents to pick them up.

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Speaker 1: That's right, Uh, dressing his pumpkins and shooting children in

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Speaker 1: the arms and legs, putting children into a pool with sharks,

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Speaker 1: that eight babies, putting blood in their coool aid, forcing

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Speaker 1: children to carry the bones of of bodies that they

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Speaker 1: had dug up. And this is just a few And

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Speaker 1: I'm getting most of this from this great Slate article

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Speaker 1: The Real Victims of Satanic Ritual Abuse s r A

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Speaker 1: by Linda Rodriguez McRobie. So the colors were accused of

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Speaker 1: all this stuff. Um, and here's generally what happens. Robert

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Speaker 1: points out. A lot of times it starts with one, um,

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Speaker 1: perhaps credible case of child abuse, sexual or otherwise, and

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Speaker 1: then that's snowballs. They tell the parents, maybe this is

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Speaker 1: going on. So they tell the parents, uh, hey, that

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Speaker 1: your child may being may be abused. The parents start looking,

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Speaker 1: They start talking to other parents in that same daycare center.

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Speaker 1: They start looking, they start asking their kids, and at

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Speaker 1: all snowballs into these little preschoolers basically making stuff up.

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Speaker 1: And not only that, it's like, yeah, yeah, I've heard

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Speaker 1: about that. That's just abused, Like it's some Satanists that

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Speaker 1: are like molesting children and murdering them. And the parents

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Speaker 1: are like what or that plays into something they'd already

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Speaker 1: heard on on TV, which we'll talk about the media's

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Speaker 1: role in this. UM. And like you said, it's snowballs

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Speaker 1: and snowballs and all of a sudden, UM, once concerned

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Speaker 1: parents get involved, UM and start talking to one another

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Speaker 1: panicked concerned parents, UM, then people can end up falsely

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Speaker 1: accused of some pretty horrendous stuff. People stopped thinking critically,

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Speaker 1: and UM, you've got problems if you're on the receiving

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Speaker 1: end of finger being pointed at you. Well, yeah, because

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Speaker 1: if you're a parent and your child goes through this

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Speaker 1: daycare center, another parent and the cops come and say, hey,

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Speaker 1: this parents kid was sexually abused. What parents gonna be like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it's fine, you're fine, quick complaining, I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to check out my kids take a salt tablet Um.

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Speaker 1: So so with with with the McMartin case, which happened

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Speaker 1: in UM southern California. Yeah, And and actually UM ended

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Speaker 1: up helping turn the tide against this but the McMartin

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Speaker 1: case and then the Keller case in Texas, both of

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Speaker 1: those were bolstered actually by bad medical testimony by inexperienced

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Speaker 1: doctors who didn't know what they were looking at, who,

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Speaker 1: in their defense, a little bit um was the at

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Speaker 1: the time, no one knew. No one was looking at

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Speaker 1: little kids like three year olds vaginas in describing what

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Speaker 1: normal ones looked like. So since you didn't know what

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Speaker 1: to look for, but I thought you were looking for

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Speaker 1: evidence of sexual abuse, anything could conceivably look like evidence

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Speaker 1: of say, um, vaginal trauma, so thing like that. And

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Speaker 1: in the case of the Kellers, in particular, UM, the

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Speaker 1: little girl who was basically, I guess, um accuser zero

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Speaker 1: of this um it was, was examined and found that

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Speaker 1: um her vagina showed some evidence of trauma. Later on,

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Speaker 1: the doctor, after gaining decades of experience, saw that, no,

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Speaker 1: that was totally normal what I saw and is not

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Speaker 1: the it's I basically gave false testimony unwittingly, and I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: And that was a huge thing because these people were

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Speaker 1: locked away because of medical testimony. And again the case

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Speaker 1: against the mcmartin's was also bolstered by bad medical advice

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Speaker 1: as well or bad medical testimony. Yeah. So with the

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Speaker 1: killer case, Uh, the patient or not patient victim zero

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Speaker 1: Christie Cheviers Chevier. I don't know how you would say.

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Speaker 1: She was three years old, didn't go to the daycare

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Speaker 1: center much. Uh, and told her mom that dan Keller

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Speaker 1: had spanked her. That's what started this whole thing. So

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the mom says, uh, and here's

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Speaker 1: a key fact, you're the mom goes to her therapist. Uh. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Donna David Campbell, who the little girl was seeing because

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Speaker 1: she had been acting out. She's like a central figure

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Speaker 1: in this whole thing. Who who the doctor? Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: they go to her and say, listen, something's going on here.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk to her about it? And all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, uh, Donna Campbell, Donna David Campbell starts coaxing

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Speaker 1: out all these really bizarre allegations about what's going on there. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They made us take off our clothes and had a

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Speaker 1: parrot peck us on the pepe That was the one

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Speaker 1: that was the earliest accusation that that formed the foundation

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Speaker 1: of this whole case, the basis of the snowball. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so this is this is this is what begins the snowball.

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Speaker 1: This is when the mom goes to the other parents,

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Speaker 1: like you hear, what's going on here, look at what's

401
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,719
Speaker 1: happened to my daughter? And what's really happening here is

402
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 1: something called uh. It was part of the recovered therapy,

403
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Speaker 1: recovered memory therapy movement, which was very big at the

404
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Speaker 1: time in psychology. Basically the idea that we have these

405
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: repressed memories, um, that of abuse. Many people do that

406
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Speaker 1: they have no idea of, and it's up to the

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Speaker 1: therapist to bring these out of us. Yeah, that's almost

408
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: like a separate, intertwined thread to this whole Satanic panic thing.

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Speaker 1: The Satanic ritual abuse is the recovered memory therapy movement,

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Speaker 1: right and um, So the Satanic panic can actually trace

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Speaker 1: its roots directly to a book from nineteen seventy two

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Speaker 1: by a guy named Mike warren Key. He was a

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Speaker 1: Christian stand up comedian. He also was totally full of it.

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Speaker 1: He wrote a book called The Satan Seller where he

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Speaker 1: talked about his life as a former Satanic cult priest,

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Speaker 1: I believe, and drug dealer, and he was eventually exposed

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Speaker 1: far too late by the Christian magazine Cornerstone as almost

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Speaker 1: entirely fraudulent and made up in just a liar, but

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Speaker 1: his book just sold like wildfire through the Christian fundamentalist

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Speaker 1: community and basically really established the groundwork for the idea

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Speaker 1: that they were Satanic cults operating in the United States.

422
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: Right for for the thread of the Recovered memory Um

423
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: movement that formed part of the Satanic Panic, you can

424
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: trace that back to a book from nineteen eighty called

425
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: I Think Michelle Remembers, Yeah, nineteen eighty And this was,

426
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 1: by the way, I was on the cover of a

427
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 1: Christian magazine in the nineteen eighties, Cornerstone magazine. I thought

428
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: it was, but it wasn't Guide Posts. I've heard of that.

429
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 1: That's a that's a big time Christian magazine. Man, that's

430
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,479
Speaker 1: a coverboy one, what nice? What were you doing on

431
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: the cover? I was. I was at a church camp

432
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: one summer and that was just like it was like

433
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: a four panel cover of just kids having fun at

434
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: church camp, and I was one of them. The May

435
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: eighty two issue. Man, I hope, I wish I could

436
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: track that thing down. That'd be great. You If anyone

437
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: out there has the issue of Chuck on the cover

438
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 1: of guide Post magazine, from do you remember the year, Uh,

439
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,719
Speaker 1: it would have been um, probably between nineteen and nineteen

440
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: eight seven. Okay, we need that everyone. I wanted to

441
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: post that that cover. That would be awesome. So this book,

442
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: Michelle remembers, it was a It was just like dropping

443
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: a bomb in the midst of this everybody. So everyone

444
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: was transitioning from who can we start pointing at and

445
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 1: persecuting now that we've decided the colts are okay and

446
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: we're gonna stop deprogramming them, who can we do? What

447
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 1: can we do next? And this book comes in the

448
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: midst of that in nineteen eighty and it's a book

449
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: about a woman named Michelle and her therapist Lawrence passed her. Yeah,

450
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: he wrote it, and he he was He helped her

451
00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: uncover repressed memories of being ritually satanically abused or satanic

452
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 1: ritually abused in the nineteen fifties in Vancouver. Yeah, he

453
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: actually ended up marrying her, and he coined the term

454
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: ritual abuse. That lies directly at his feet. And Uh,

455
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: this thing had a lot of attraction. I mean, this

456
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: lady was on Oprah, she did the talk show circuit

457
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: for years. The guy was used as as an expert

458
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: witness in court cases like he he founded a whole

459
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: movement in psychology. It was completely debunked. Yeah, and the

460
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 1: whole idea is it's based on this premise that if

461
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: you undergo a traumatic experience, your mind is going to

462
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: try to repress that memory, but it's gonna have all

463
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: sorts of horrible effects in your life. You're gonna be

464
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: an alcoholic and a drug addict and maybe a child

465
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: abuser and you won't know why, but it's because you

466
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: were abused as a child, probably by Satanists, and you

467
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: covered it up, and you need to go to therapy

468
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: to have it unlocked. And a lot of people went

469
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: to therapy and had these memories unlocked, which only proved

470
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: Pastor's point even further. The problem is is if when

471
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: they were re examined, they were pseudo memories. Through the

472
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: power of suggestion and over zealous UM therapists, a lot

473
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: of people form memories of stuff that never happened. Yeah,

474
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: the problem is recovered memory therapy. There's little to no

475
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: scientific evidence that it's a thing at all that people

476
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: unconsciously repressed these memories UM. The Royal College of Psychiatrists

477
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: in Britain Uh. They have officially banned its members from

478
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: using it altogether. The British Psychological Society says you can

479
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,959
Speaker 1: use it, but you can't draw any premature conclusions. You

480
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: have to have evidence, not just well this is what

481
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: they said in therapy, right, So that's a repressed memory

482
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: that came to the surface. Right. And the A M A.

483
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, the A p A and the United States, Uh,

484
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: their official stance was issued nineteen eighty I'm sorry. N Uh.

485
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: There's a consensus among memory researches and clinicians that most

486
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: people who are sexually abused as children remember all or

487
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: part of what happened to them, although they may not

488
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: fully understand or disclose it. So a competent psychotherapist is

489
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: um likely to acknowledge that current knowledge does not allow

490
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: the definite conclusion without corroborating evidence. So again, the general

491
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: consensus is that people don't completely unconsciously forget everything that happened.

492
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: It's virtually impossible. Um. And so this idea that during therapy,

493
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: while you're coaxing these memories out, you're actually forming pseudotherapy

494
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: is backed up by a lot of follow up research.

495
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: Memory pseudo memory, sorry, um is backed up by research.

496
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: There's a researcher, famous memory researcher named Elizabeth Loftus. She

497
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: found that participants of this study came to believe that

498
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: they had done something they hadn't when confronted with witnesses

499
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: who said that they had done it. That's the real

500
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: danger in all this sure is that these memories become

501
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: just as valid as real memories and do damage because

502
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: they aren't real. And there's actually a real life case

503
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: that came out of all this who this one was crazy?

504
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: Paul Ingram. Paul Ingram was a sheriff's deputy UM, and

505
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: he was accused by his young daughter of Satanic ritually

506
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: abusing her, and that he was a member of a

507
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: Satanic cult and that um, she had been raped by

508
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: this cult six to eight hundred times. Um, they had

509
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: been involved in the murder of twenty five babies at least.

510
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: And paul Ingram said, I don't remember any of this,

511
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: but um, you must be right, So I am going

512
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: to confess. He was a preacher. Yeah, he was a

513
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: fundamentalist um Christian. So he was very much primed to

514
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: believe that there is um a very a very real

515
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: Satan roaming the earth. And if his daughter is telling

516
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,239
Speaker 1: him that he did this, why what what reason does

517
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: she have to lie? So he actually, I mean, he

518
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: bought into it and and took the rap for this

519
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: even though it never happened. No one ever showed that

520
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: any of this stuff happened. He served his full prisons

521
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: and of twenty years years and maybe didn't even do

522
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: it anything. Yeah, but he himself said, well, I don't know,

523
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: maybe I did, and I think he fully bought into

524
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: it over time. Such a weird reversal in that case,

525
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: you know, Um, should we take another break? Maybe? So,

526
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: all right, we'll take another break here and talk about

527
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: the media and then some other theories in cases in

528
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: satanic panic. All right, If you were alive during the

529
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,719
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties and early nineties, which I was, then, you

530
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: remember Oprah, Haraldo, Sally Jesse, Raphael you name it, every

531
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: single talk show Dona Hue doing lots and lots of

532
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: shows on satanic death cults. It this two PM on

533
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: a Wednesday afternoon, and you want to figure out how

534
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: to get America to turn their TV to your station,

535
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 1: you would have a choice of different shows to watch,

536
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: probably total yeah, on the same day, right, Um, and yeah,

537
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: everybody did Satanists and Haralda was the king of this.

538
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: He actually had a two hour primetime special in called

539
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: Exposing Satan's Underground and it is on YouTube and I

540
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: think about tim parts. I watched one of them where

541
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: he had Assie on and Ozzie's like, uh, Ozzie looks

542
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: like a pre Golden Girls Dorothy is. The way he's

543
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: dressed and done up. It's awesome. But he's like, I

544
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: don't mean freak anybody out with the music. Um, and

545
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: he doesn't know what to make of this, but it's like, Ozzie,

546
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: just sit there, we'll get back to you. Like, but

547
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: there's this classic line in this, right, Haralda goes they're

548
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: talking about a murder that was carried out by this boy,

549
00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: and um, Haraldo says to this copy goes to detective,

550
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: you're a cop, not a theologian, but let me ask you,

551
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: was this point possessed? Dead serious? And the cop is like,

552
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: I he had just a little bits like I think

553
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: that's a state of mind. But yeah, and in that sense, yes,

554
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: I think he was. Haralda doesn't give what he's looking

555
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: for out of the guy, so he goes to an

556
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: actual theologian, a priest. He goes, uh, you know you're

557
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: you're you're charged with um investigating these cases for the

558
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: Catholic Church. Do you think that this is a case

559
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: of possession? He's like absolutely, And Harrold was like, yes,

560
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: that's what I was looking for. But that's the level

561
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: of journalism that people were tuning into on like NBC

562
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: at eight o'clock for two hours in like the highest

563
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: rated two hour TV documentary ever, and a third or

564
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: a half of America is like, what idiot believes this

565
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: is the most entertaining thing I've ever seen. The other

566
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 1: half is scared to death and thinks that all of

567
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: this is totally real. You know, it's easy to laugh

568
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: about now, but shame on all of them. Well, Haraldo

569
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: came out and said, I want to apologize for that

570
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 1: bit of journalism. That was really bad, and I'm sorry

571
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: for it. But I mean that's how he made his

572
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: name with stuff like that. Well, he was caught up

573
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: in the moral panic. Everyone was doing it. There was

574
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: a book in night children's picture book UM called Don't

575
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: Make Me Go Back, Mommy Colin, a child's book about

576
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 1: satanic ritual abuse to read to your children or if

577
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: you were a therapist, to use in therapy. You know that. Well,

578
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: they also had in many of the court cases little

579
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: little anatomically correct rag dolls that they would use in

580
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: court like you know, show me where you were touched

581
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: and things like this, which I'm sure that has valid

582
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: use as well, and you know, like sex abuse cases

583
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: for sure, but you're like completely poopooing that you have to, um,

584
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: you have to use that. I would imagine you you're

585
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: training in how to do that correctly without inadvertently or

586
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: advertently leading the child on into creating some sort of

587
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: pseudo memory. It should be extensive, I would guess, you know,

588
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, So the media was definitely complicit in

589
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: all this, really saw that there's a lot of ratings

590
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: to be had and just fanning the flames of the

591
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: satanic panic. And I think a lot of people bought

592
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: into it as well. Um And then so too were

593
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: things like the um the field of psychiatry and psychology

594
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 1: very much complicit in this by allowing repressed memory therapy

595
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: to really spread as much as it did without any

596
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 1: kind of real, um verified research into whether it was

597
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,479
Speaker 1: real or not. And to defend them a little bit

598
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: Robert also makes it points they're probably well meaning, probably

599
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,280
Speaker 1: thinking they were doing this great work like helping these kids,

600
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: but like with no scientific basis whatsoever, and lacking a

601
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 1: lot of critical thinking too. And they dressed as pumpkins

602
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: and shot the kids in the arms and the legs.

603
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: Where are the bullet wounds? How exactly did they get

604
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: the kids to Mexico and then back to Austin in

605
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 1: the average daycare day? You know, secret tunnels? That was

606
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: an explanation. There was a lot there. There wasn't enough

607
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: critical thinking. So you can definitely take UM the media, psychology,

608
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: psychiatry UM and a lot of UM law enforcement investigators

609
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,720
Speaker 1: to task for this. But really there were a lot

610
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,280
Speaker 1: of hucksters and fraudsters making a lot of money as

611
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 1: UM satanic experts at the time. Both is like legal

612
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: UM legal UH representatives, UM expert witness expert witnesses UM

613
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: going on shows like Heraldo and Sally Jesse, Raphael UH

614
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: and those people are really should bear the brunt of

615
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: this because they were just lying, lying, lying, lying their

616
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: faces off UM and and scaring people to death and

617
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: making a lot of money out of it. Uh. So

618
00:37:58,040 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: he said it was widespread. There was a Red Bull

619
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: magazine survey in and this is at the end of

620
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 1: the whole thing, Yeah true, UM that found that seventy

621
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: percent of Americans believed UH in satanic ritual abuse. UH.

622
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 1: And in ninete, this is the really scary one, a

623
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: survey by the American Bar Association Center on Children and

624
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 1: the Law found that twenty six a quarter more than

625
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: a quarter of prosecutors said they handled at least one

626
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: case involving ritual satanic ritual abuse during that time period.

627
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: So UM. Within that time too, there was a very

628
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: famous case in in West Memphis, Arkansas, the West Memphis

629
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,320
Speaker 1: three UM, who were very famously exonerated thanks to crack

630
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: documentary filmmaking UM on HBO's half. As a matter of fact,

631
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: HBO really led the vanguard against this whole satanic panic. UM.

632
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 1: They released in UH documentary I think it was a

633
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: biopic on the McMartin try. It wasn't a documentary. I

634
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: think it was like dramatized And that really started to

635
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: change the tide of how academics, intellectuals, and in the

636
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 1: media itself saw satanic ritual abuse started to expose it

637
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: as this is not real. Yeah, and this is after

638
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 1: the McMartin trial had been the longest and most expensive

639
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: trial in the history of the United States. That's right,

640
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: fifteen sixteen million dollars spent for with zero can convictions

641
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 1: because it didn't happen. UM, And that case actually was

642
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: UM started with a woman who believed her child had

643
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 1: been sexually abused, and the woman actually sadly went on

644
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,399
Speaker 1: to die from alcohol poisoning a couple of years later.

645
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: In was schizophrenic. She was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic

646
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: in that time. And yet nobody stopped and said, oh, well,

647
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: wait a minute, she was the center of the accusers

648
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 1: of all this should be take another look at all this.

649
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: It was like, no, let's spend fifteen million dollars a

650
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 1: taxpayer money trying to prosecute these people and get zero

651
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 1: convictions out of it. Um. The West Memphis three were

652
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 1: successfully prosecuted in Arkansas, I mean railroaded. There is no

653
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 1: other way to to put this, thanks to something like

654
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: a false confession by Jesse ms Kelly, UM, which is

655
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: mind blowing until you should go listen to our episode

656
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: on false confessions, which I believe you did that one right. Uh,

657
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: either that or it was a part of another one.

658
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 1: But yeah, we covered that topic for sure. Um. And

659
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: and all of that was based on the satanic panic

660
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,720
Speaker 1: thing as well. Um, but you go, you should definitely

661
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: watch those again HBO documentaries Paradise Lost one, two, and three. Yeah,

662
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: and they they made the original and Paradise Lost the

663
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: Child murders of Robin Hood Hills. And I think they

664
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: thought it was the same guy. Did you see Brothers

665
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: Keeper the other documentary, Uh, yeah, about the older love

666
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:49,959
Speaker 1: that one man, that's the same guy that Brothers Keepers

667
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: will put him on the map. So I think he

668
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: thought that Paradise Lost One was just the documentary. And

669
00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: to his credit Joe Biden Burlinger, sure, I think he uh,

670
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: he really championed this case and followed it to its

671
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: conclusion over the course of two more documentaries over the years. Yeah,

672
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 1: And from what I understand, he changed his mind about

673
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: the content or the crime mid stream. Like I think,

674
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: didn't he go there thinking he was just covering the crime,

675
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: And then when I actually saw what was going on,

676
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: I was like, WHOA, Yeah, I think I think he was.

677
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 1: I mean because of him, they were exonerated ultimately. Yeah,

678
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 1: Like he got three people out of prison. One off

679
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 1: death row. Um, Yeah, hats off. But again, this is

680
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: part of the satanic panic scare. Um and that not

681
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: that one that kind of came at the end of it.

682
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:43,280
Speaker 1: But the McMartin movie on HBO started to change the tide,

683
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 1: and so too to the exoneration of a woman named

684
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: um Margaret Kelly Michaels in New Jersey. Um In. She

685
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: was let out of prison after it was revealed how

686
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: coercive the questioning was Um of the children who ended

687
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 1: up accusing her of this and was true in every case,

688
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: it seems like it was. It shed a lot of

689
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,919
Speaker 1: light onto this and people started going like whoa, whoa, whoa, Wait,

690
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: this is coercive. H Let's look at these other cases.

691
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: And you go back and look at the transcripts and see, like, Okay,

692
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: these people were basically telling the kids what they wanted

693
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: to hear. They were using approval whenever the kids said

694
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,399
Speaker 1: something that that pointed the finger. They're using disapproval when

695
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: the kids refused to talk or whatever or implicate anyone. Um.

696
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: And if you go back and really listen to what

697
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: the kids are saying, a lot of the times they're like, no,

698
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: nothing happened. Well, and then they would follow that with

699
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: are you sure this didn't happen? Are you sure this

700
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 1: didn't happen. You're not supposed to do that, and you're

701
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 1: certainly not supposed to put people in prison for half

702
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: of their lives. Well, and you're especially not supposed to

703
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 1: do that to a kid who's highly suggestible and wants

704
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: to please, because most kids want to please. And when

705
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: you look at some of these allegations, it sounds like

706
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 1: if you asked the three year old to make up

707
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: what they think ritual abuse would be, Here's here's what

708
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: a kid would say. Yeah, they locked us in a

709
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: closet with spiders and snakes. Yeah, they put us in

710
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: a pool with sharks that ate babies, and they fed

711
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: us baby parts. So UM, the real death knell of

712
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: the Satanic ritual abuse scare came in UM with the

713
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 1: Meta survey for UM, the National Center and Child abusea

714
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: Neglect and this study it contacted UM prosecutors, regular lawyers,

715
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 1: social workers, psychologists, I think that was it. Thousands and

716
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: tens of thousands of them across the country. Ended up

717
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 1: whittling it down to a sizeable sample and found UM

718
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: all sorts of things. Specifically, what they found is there

719
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: was no evidence whatsoever of any Satanic cults operating anywhere

720
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: in the US, or a single crime carried out by

721
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: a Satanic cult. They said that they found a couple

722
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: of um crimes that were carried up by people allegedly

723
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: in the name of Satan, but that these were most

724
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: likely inspired by the Satanic panic itself, and that's what. Yeah,

725
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 1: that's what That's what I'm saying, UM. But they had

726
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: had it was in a Satanic cult by any means. UM.

727
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: They also found in this study that children UM of

728
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: the ages that that where they would go to daycare

729
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: weren't capable of forming the type of accusations against Satanic

730
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: ritual abuse UM that people have been convicted of. That

731
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: clearly the adults were the ones who were channeling themselves

732
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: through their children to accuse these people. The kids were

733
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: saying things like they locked us in a closet with

734
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 1: spiders and snakes. They weren't saying like they carved open

735
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: a baby and um sexually abused it and then we

736
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 1: all drank its blood while everyone's wearing black ropes. They're

737
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 1: they're not sophisticated enough to think that kind of thing.

738
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 1: So the study also proved that too. And then ironically,

739
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 1: the same survey found plenty of evidence religious based crimes,

740
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 1: including murders, carried out things like exorcisms that went too far,

741
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,439
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. They're like, that actually is real,

742
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 1: And ironically, we have a lot of laws protecting people

743
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: who do that, but we have laws that step up

744
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: the punishment for satanic abuse even though that doesn't exist.

745
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 1: And that one really changed the tide of how people

746
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: saw the satanic panic. Well yeah, and then experts later

747
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: came out and said as far as the uh, physical abuse,

748
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 1: and the doctors who testified at trial, like the type

749
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 1: of physical abuse these kids were enduring. They were like

750
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: a layman could look at a child and and say, wow,

751
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: what happened to this kid? But you will obviously never

752
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,840
Speaker 1: be able to reproduce because you're totally mangled. Not this

753
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: like ambiguous like, well, yeah, I think that seems like

754
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: they had some marks where they could have been, you know,

755
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: molested or something like. It would have been so obvious

756
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: because these allegations were so far out there. And of

757
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: course years later they say this. At the time, everyone

758
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 1: was drinking the flavor aid you know, nice the blood

759
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,879
Speaker 1: drenched flavor aid and insult to injury that same media.

760
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, the hot story became the outrage

761
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: that was Satanic panic, and what a bunch of crap

762
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: that it was. So now let's cover that story in full,

763
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 1: even though he had a lot to do with it. Yeah, um, so, Chuck,

764
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: why did people drink the flavor aid? Like? What was

765
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: the immediate reason for the Satanic panic? Well, you found

766
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: this great article, which one I found a lot of

767
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 1: great articles, the three uh satanic ritual abuse as Oh yeah,

768
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 1: this sociological article. Yeah, that was good. Um. They have

769
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:54,760
Speaker 1: a few reasons um as subversion ideology, as rumor panic,

770
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 1: and as contemporary legend. And the subversion ideology I thought

771
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 1: was super into thing. I didn't even know what that was.

772
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: I hadn't heard of it before you. They define it

773
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: as a culturally constructed myth that gives shape informed the

774
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: feelings of anxiety and uncertainty about the future that our

775
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: experienced between periods of rapid, unpredictable social change. Right, So,

776
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: so we're anxious. We're not even necessarily conscious of our anxiety,

777
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: but we just we don't feel quite right that everything's changing.

778
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: We don't know what's going on, so what's yeah, what what?

779
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 1: What exactly is making us nervous? Oh? How about that

780
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: group over there, Satanists. Before it was Jews, and before

781
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 1: that it was Christians. Now it puts a face to

782
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: this underlying sense of dread we feel because the times

783
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: are a changeing exactly, and it gives us a um

784
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: an outlet at the expense of other people. But that's

785
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: the with the subversion ideology. The hallmark characteristic of it

786
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 1: is that that that other group takes everything we hold

787
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: dear and values the opposite of it. So Satanists they

788
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: use upside down crosses and evil is what's really good?

789
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,280
Speaker 1: And um it was. It's a classic example of subvers

790
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,919
Speaker 1: subversion ideology. Well, and one thing I thought was really

791
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 1: interesting in here is um they contend And I'm sure

792
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 1: it's true that subversion ideology actually ends up having a

793
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: stabilizing effect because people didn't go, oh, okay, well, that's

794
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 1: why I'm so upset and worried and anxious is because

795
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 1: of the Satanists, not what's really going on, which is

796
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 1: the end of the millennium apparently. Yeah whatever, That was

797
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: another explanation I ran across is that it was millennial anxiety. Um.

798
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: There is also know that another one you said, moral

799
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: or rumor panic um, which we touched on before. But

800
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: basically that is this idea that, um, it's just buying

801
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 1: into a rumor and like really really buying into it.

802
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: And the way you buy into it is because all

803
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: of a sudden, um, professional psychiatrists and psychologists and law

804
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: enforcement people and people in the newspaper are talking about

805
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: this stuff like it's fact. And with that, because we

806
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: trust these people as being smart, intelligent people, it becomes

807
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 1: fact in the eyes and the minds of just normal people,

808
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: and that gives it veracity in and of itself. Once

809
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: people start believing something as fact without any proof, you

810
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 1: are rumor panic has just set in well, and ironically

811
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: to them, it seems like the more out there the

812
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 1: panic is, the more readily it's believed, because that the

813
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 1: old like who would make something like that up right,

814
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 1: a three year old might being coaxed by police and

815
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 1: her parents and her shrink. And then the last one

816
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 1: is an urban legend, which we talked about before, but

817
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,399
Speaker 1: this sociological article pointed something out that I hadn't thought

818
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: of that Um, urban legends deal in metaphors, even though

819
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: we don't think of them as metaphors. So in this case,

820
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 1: the children that were being abused by Satanists were a

821
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 1: metaphor for our future, and children are a future. Just

822
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: go ask Whitney Houston, can't it's true, um. And then

823
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 1: as people start to buy into it, it becomes a

824
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 1: rumor panic, and you can dress it up with some

825
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 1: version ideology. So in the end, the mcmartin's, I don't

826
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 1: think they ever well, I think they need I think

827
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,839
Speaker 1: they were in jail here and there while the trial

828
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: was going on. Yeah, but they were never prosecuted, but

829
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 1: never successfully prosecuted. The Kellers were eventually exonerated, but they

830
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,240
Speaker 1: spent twenty one years in prison. Their life was ruined,

831
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: twenty one years in prison each based on these false

832
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: I have to say, if you want to read one

833
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: of the better articles I've ever read, it's called The

834
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 1: Innocent and the Damned. It's from Texas Monthly. He was

835
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: written in while this Satanic panic is going on, But

836
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: somehow Texas Monthly took a critical eye to this stuff.

837
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 1: Really good article. I thought this was so fascinating because

838
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 1: as crazy as it seems now. And like I was

839
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 1: saying at the very beginning, like how in the world

840
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties did we buy into this like

841
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 1: it was Salem, Massachusetts. Uh, when you look at the

842
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: reasons behind it, it was like the perfect storm coalescing. Uh,

843
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 1: it sort of makes perfect sense when you look at

844
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: everything behind it. It does, but doesn't it Also, like,

845
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: even even even if you take into account that you're

846
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 1: using hindsight and that the perspective that's afforded by that,

847
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 1: the gullibility that's it that is involved in a moral

848
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 1: panic is it's just it's saddening that Edward Burns would

849
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 1: have been all over this. Oh yeah, well he fomented

850
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 1: those kind of things. Um, yeah, yeah, it's sad. Also,

851
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 1: if you want some yucks, go look up law Enforcement

852
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 1: Guide to Satanic Coults on YouTube hit the video series.

853
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: Yeah so weird. I'm glad to know that you had

854
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 1: a Satan house in your neighborhood too. I think everybody

855
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: did or rumors that, like somebody found a cat with

856
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: its head cut off in a panagram and he's like,

857
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 1: oh that happened because I'm ten, Which is okay if

858
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 1: you're ten, But if you're fifty, it's not okay, especially

859
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,359
Speaker 1: if you're the local prosecutor. Uh. And it also one

860
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: last thing, Chuck, it makes you wonder what moral panics

861
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: are we working on right now? What's this ancient history?

862
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:02,800
Speaker 1: You know? Uh? If you want to know more about

863
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 1: moral panics and specifically the Satanic panic, you can type

864
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,359
Speaker 1: those words into the search part how stuff works dot com.

865
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: Since I said search parts time for listener mail. Here's

866
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 1: what I predict because that some people are going to

867
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: write in and say, dudes, we're in the middle of

868
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 1: another moral panic right now and it is blank vocal fry.

869
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: Perhaps some lady called me the fry master and the

870
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: emailed you see that. No, I didn't. She was like,

871
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: Chuck always uses vocal fry. And then when I listened

872
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,720
Speaker 1: to my voice, I'm like, I totally do, but totally

873
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: I've noticed it a lot more since we um uh

874
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: said that episode. Yeah, yeah, whatever, I'm being me. Yeah, man,

875
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: you should. I'm a trend center. I'm gonna call this.

876
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 1: Um oh, guys sitting straight on these grocery store donations. Okay,

877
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 1: hey guys, a long time listener, love you guys. Never thought, uh,

878
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 1: this would be the reason I have to each out

879
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 1: to you at the end of the podcast on Tuesday. Um,

880
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 1: he said, I don't know which podcast it was. At

881
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,280
Speaker 1: the end of the recent podcast, actually had to stop

882
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 1: and say no because my friends Josh and Chuck didn't

883
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 1: just do that and told people not to donate a

884
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,759
Speaker 1: dollar to buy the little hot air balloons at the

885
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 1: grocery store because the company then uses those donations to

886
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 1: get text credit. This is absolutely not true. That is

887
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,280
Speaker 1: not true what I said. He says, I have actually

888
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 1: been working with Children's Miracle Network hospitals in Connecticut for

889
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,479
Speaker 1: about twenty years. And by the way, when I said

890
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,359
Speaker 1: the balloons, I forgot that was Children's Miracle Networks specifically.

891
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: I used to do a lot of work with them

892
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 1: in l A on video shoots. No, of course not.

893
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 1: It's They're amazing. You're like, it's the shamrocks. I have

894
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 1: a problem. I know. I just felt terrible after that,

895
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 1: so um. He says. Our corporate partners do not get

896
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 1: text credits for donations made by their customers. In fact,

897
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 1: many of our corporate partners ring these donations through their registers,

898
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 1: so the donation shows on the customer's receipt. Allowing it

899
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 1: them to use that for their taxes. What a quick

900
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 1: fun fact about the Miracle Balloon UM that I reference

901
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 1: is that the first one ever sold the entire world

902
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 1: was that a small diner in downtown Middletown, Connecticut to

903
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 1: Roy Come in nineteen six. I thought he's gonna say

904
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 1: like nineteen not four. Uh. Soon after that, UM, the

905
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 1: Miracle Balloon became a multinational program that raises money for

906
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 1: more than one seventy local children's hospitals across the US

907
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 1: in Canada, and its creator became very, very rich. As

908
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 1: I mentioned, I've been doing this job for about twenty years,

909
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: and I have to tell uh that I always say

910
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 1: I have the best job in the world. I get

911
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 1: to work with amazing people like my co workers and

912
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 1: all of our partners, and I get to work for

913
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 1: the most inspiring people, our patient families. Please help me

914
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,959
Speaker 1: get this corrected. The stuff you should know, legion, don't worry,

915
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 1: as I love you guys. That is from Scott uh

916
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:01,919
Speaker 1: organ Eck, the director of Children's Racle Network Hospitals. While

917
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 1: from the Horse's Mouth or a director, Yeah, so I

918
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 1: don't We're gonna have to look into this a little Further,

919
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 1: I think we got other people that said that's not true,

920
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,240
Speaker 1: and other people said it is true for Children's Miracle Network.

921
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,239
Speaker 1: I'm sure he knows what he's talking about, but there

922
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: are all kinds of things that done it too. And

923
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 1: it's also probably not a liar. I don't know. He

924
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 1: seems like a regular guy, not a Satanic, which a

925
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 1: will be user. No, not at all in any way,

926
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:30,759
Speaker 1: so we'll we'll look into it. It certainly did not

927
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,319
Speaker 1: mean to disparage the No. I didn't in there, and

928
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 1: I mean, if that's the way it works, I retract that,

929
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:37,919
Speaker 1: but I need to look into it a little more first,

930
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: all right, the jury's out. Um, thank you very much.

931
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 1: Was his name, David. David, You're awesome. Thank you for

932
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: the work you're doing too. If you want to get

933
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: in touch with us to set us straight, we love that.

934
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 1: You can tweet to us at s Y s K podcast.

935
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: You can join us on Facebook dot com, slash Stuff

936
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 1: you Should Know. You can send us an email to

937
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,280
Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast to house Stuff Works dot com, and as always,

938
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 1: join us at our home on the web, Stuff you

939
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 1: Should Know dot com for more on this and thousands

940
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: of other topics. VI is it, how stuff works, dot

941
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 1: com h