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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Does it make anybody feel

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Speaker 1: better that Molly tibbitts murder has become a political football

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Speaker 1: with the people on the left, the people on the right.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's screaming their own opinion. Does it you think that

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Speaker 1: helps the family. This is what I know. Molly Tibbitts

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Speaker 1: was attacked while she was jogging. She threatened to call

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Speaker 1: nine one one. She was chased down, brutalized and murdered.

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Speaker 1: I want justice now. Everybody's whining. Oh, we vetted him.

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Speaker 1: He was fine. He worked with us for four years.

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Speaker 1: He was not fine, and this apparently is not the

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Speaker 1: first time he tailed a young woman as she walked

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Speaker 1: or jogged. I mean, is he Grace? This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. Take a listen to this.

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Speaker 1: After we got done interviewing Mr Rivera, he led us

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Speaker 1: to her location and that what location was near four

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Speaker 1: sixty Street or Avenue in rural how She County. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you've driven around the area and it's it's a

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Speaker 1: rural county and there are a lot of fields, a

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Speaker 1: lot of woods, a lot of ditches. We have certainly

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Speaker 1: had extensive searches throughout the county. We just didn't have

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Speaker 1: success locating her. In this particular case, she was found

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Speaker 1: in a cornfield and there were cornstalks placed over the

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Speaker 1: top of her. We are now learning new information that

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Speaker 1: Molly was killed by multiple sharp blows. Joining me Lee Egan,

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Speaker 1: Crime Online investigative reporter Chuck Roberts with crime Stories, renowned

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Speaker 1: Atlanta defense attorney, Raymond Judy Chay, Karen Smith, forensics expert

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Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Boberg, psychiatrists, Ashley Wilcott juvenile judge, and Kathleen

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Speaker 1: Murphy family lawyer. Straight out to you, Raymond Judy, Chay,

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Speaker 1: g U I D I C E. What's your best defense?

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Speaker 1: You should know you've represented killers, vehicular homicide defendants, the works.

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Speaker 1: Now what do they do? He led them to the body, Ray,

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Speaker 1: He led them to the body. Absolutely work. Now what

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do is make sure a he doesn't

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Speaker 1: do or say anything to make his case more difficult.

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Speaker 1: Anything you can't talk to what, well, that's right, meaning

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Speaker 1: talk to the what we will soon find to be

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Speaker 1: the jail house snitch who, in his own efforts to

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Speaker 1: save his life, says, oh, he was sleeping, sleep talking

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Speaker 1: and totally and confessed to the crime. So we'll see

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Speaker 1: those kind of things come up. But quite frankly, of

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Speaker 1: the defense has a very difficult problem here. They're trying

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Speaker 1: to protect this man's rights. Now we're in a gray

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Speaker 1: area of constitutional rights. But once you come into the

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Speaker 1: United States, you are protected by the Constitution, whether you're

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Speaker 1: here legally or illegally. He's going to have a team

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Speaker 1: of appointed lawyers you've already seen translators, will be a

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Speaker 1: lot of state resources applied. If I was his counsel,

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Speaker 1: I will be immediately applying for a psych evaluation. This

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Speaker 1: thing about write um you you you can go on

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Speaker 1: and it convinces a lot of juries. You have an

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Speaker 1: excellent record. But let's just talk about his few dream

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Speaker 1: state where he was following her and then suddenly he

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Speaker 1: notices he's got an earbud in his lap, and then

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Speaker 1: that makes him think, wow, here's an earbud. That must

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Speaker 1: mean the girls dead in my trunk. Because see when

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Speaker 1: I see an earbud, a single earbud, Ray Judice, you

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Speaker 1: know what I think? I think, Well, John David's done

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Speaker 1: it again. There goes another set of earbuds, bam, back

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Speaker 1: to the dollar tree. So that's what I think, but

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Speaker 1: he sees an earbud in his lap and he immediately thinks, Wow,

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Speaker 1: this must mean I've got a dead girl in my trunk. Ray. Also,

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Speaker 1: when you say he blacked out or he has a

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Speaker 1: mental issue, remember this. It is coming to light that

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Speaker 1: he registered his vehicle under a false name. Now crazy

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Speaker 1: like a fox. Ray. Well, the fact that he has

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Speaker 1: been in the United States for many years and apparently

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Speaker 1: has not committed any other crimes that is the current status.

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Speaker 1: And he has used hasn't gotten caught, right, but he

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Speaker 1: has used false I D and false alias for the

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Speaker 1: purpose of staying employed and staying in the country. Now

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Speaker 1: that's obviously illegal, but he has not been apparently used

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Speaker 1: these false ideas or aliases to commit violent crimes. In fact,

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Speaker 1: the testimony apparently from even his employer was, Hey, this

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Speaker 1: guy came to work on time every day. We've never

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Speaker 1: had a problem with him. We've never seen a change

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Speaker 1: in his attitude. So I think the defense team is

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Speaker 1: going to be looking into why, all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: he snapped or changed from a reliable, dependable employee, guy

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Speaker 1: that nobody had a problem with too all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: Who commits this type of heinous crime in the middle

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Speaker 1: of a cornfield. Well, it's somebody, you know what, right,

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Speaker 1: I've noticed this about you, and this is again not

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Speaker 1: about you, and it's not about Republicans or Democrats are

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Speaker 1: blah the blah the blah. But it's not just you.

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Speaker 1: Why is it the defense attorney's always end up in

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Speaker 1: court and go He had a job, Okay, Ted Bundy

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Speaker 1: had a job too. All right, I'm not impressed. I

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Speaker 1: want to go with this. Let me ask you this,

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Speaker 1: Chuck Roberts joining me crime stories investigating reporter, isn't true

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Speaker 1: that this illegal immigrant now charged with murdering chasing her

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Speaker 1: down as she ran, threatening to call nine one one.

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Speaker 1: She never got that call off? Is it true that

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Speaker 1: he allegedly tailed another girl in his car a very chilling,

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Speaker 1: very chilling echo of what happened with Molly? Is this true,

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Speaker 1: Chuck Roberts, It is a It is a rumor, not

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Speaker 1: verified being any law enforcement official I'm aware of. But

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Speaker 1: he did say he had seen Molly Tibbots before he

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Speaker 1: had noticed her, and for some reason that night he

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Speaker 1: went up and down the road. He's He's shown on

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Speaker 1: a surveillance video in the black or dark colored Malibu

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Speaker 1: driving up and down the road after that video shows

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Speaker 1: Molly Tibbots running near her hometown, in her hometown of Brooklyn, Iowa. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, Chuck Roberts, I appreciate you going by the book,

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Speaker 1: but I don't need a cop to interpret what another

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Speaker 1: girl tells her sister that the same guy leaves her

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Speaker 1: in fear for her life after he tailed her in

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Speaker 1: his car trying to quote flirt with her. That was

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Speaker 1: a seventeen year old girl walking through Brooklyn, Iowa, the

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Speaker 1: very same rural town where he would later be charged

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Speaker 1: of chasing down Molly in the very same way. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In fact, the sister has given a very open interview

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Speaker 1: about how he followed her, allegedly flirting with her from

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Speaker 1: inside the car, telling her she's pretty driving around behind

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Speaker 1: her she's walking the streets of Brooklyn. You know what

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Speaker 1: that sounds like to me? To Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina

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Speaker 1: family lawyer, what we call a similar transaction. He is

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Speaker 1: a predator. They have people missing in Iowa. I if

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Speaker 1: I was investigating this case, would want to know where

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Speaker 1: has she been and what else has he done? This

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Speaker 1: was not his first time. This is Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to the Judge Diane Crook Johnson in court. Mr Rivera,

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Speaker 1: I now need to review with you the maximum penalties

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Speaker 1: for your charge. If found guilty of the charge of

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Speaker 1: murder in the first degree, the maximum penalty will be imposed.

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Speaker 1: The maximum penalty is life in prison without the possibility

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Speaker 1: of parole. This sentence cannot be deferred or suspended. The

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Speaker 1: defendant will be required to provide a DNA sample and

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Speaker 1: may be required to register with the Sex Offender Registry

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Speaker 1: and if not a U. S citizen, a plea of

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Speaker 1: guilty can result in additional immigration consequences up to and

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Speaker 1: including deportation. The Immigration Detainer Notice of Action requires that

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Speaker 1: at the completion of this criminal matter, you be transferred

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Speaker 1: to the Department of Homeland Security to keep complete processing

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Speaker 1: an assessment of your citizenship. Christian Bahina Rivera who resides

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Speaker 1: in rural Paosche County and he has been charged with

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Speaker 1: murder in the first degree and first degree murder carries

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Speaker 1: a penalty of life without the possibility of parole. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's true. In Iowa, there is no death penalty. You

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Speaker 1: can chase down as many young women on the side

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Speaker 1: of the street and murder them and leave them face

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Speaker 1: up in the cornfield as you want to, and you

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Speaker 1: will still end up with life behind bars, with us

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Speaker 1: the taxpayer paying for three hots and a cot to

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Speaker 1: Lea Egan Crime online dot com investigative reporter. What more

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Speaker 1: do we know at this juncture? The suspect will probably

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Speaker 1: remain behind bars. The judge increased his bond to a

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Speaker 1: five million cash only bond. She denied his attorney's request

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Speaker 1: to prohibit media, so, as far as we know, will

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Speaker 1: be able to continue to see what goes on as program.

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Speaker 1: Very very interesting. Uh, the defense attorney insisting that the

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Speaker 1: media be excluded from court. Guys, listen, we're asking this

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Speaker 1: court two exclude the media from these proceedings because it

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Speaker 1: could be just one nod of the head, one glance,

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Speaker 1: one slide of hand that will be partially taken out

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Speaker 1: of context and present an over and over which would

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Speaker 1: be highly prejudicial to the dependent. So I urged the

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Speaker 1: court to exclude the media from these proceedings. Renowned Atlanta

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Speaker 1: Defense turning Raymond Dutch joining me at right. Typically the

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Speaker 1: defense that wants the media in the courtroom. Why suddenly

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Speaker 1: now no media? Well, let me say that I thought

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Speaker 1: defense counsel's request was a little bit sloppy. I think

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Speaker 1: he would have had a better approach if you had said, judge,

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Speaker 1: we're not going to eliminate the media, but let's keep

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Speaker 1: it a fixed camera. Uh no, no focus or zooming

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Speaker 1: in on my client for facial expressions. I think he

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Speaker 1: would have had a much better and he would have

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Speaker 1: laid a better grounds for an eventual appeal had he

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Speaker 1: just not put a total gag order. Requested total gag order.

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Speaker 1: But the normal limitation here in Georgia we have, it's

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Speaker 1: called the rule twenty two. The media has to apply

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Speaker 1: to have the camera, and journalists print journalist are of

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Speaker 1: course allowed in any open courtroom. But that camera is

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Speaker 1: a fixed camera. It won't pick up the jurors, it

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Speaker 1: won't focus on the defendants movements. It just cans the

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Speaker 1: entire courtroom. I think that would have been a better

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Speaker 1: and smarter request that may have had a chance of

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Speaker 1: being granted. We are taking your calls nine zero nine

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Speaker 1: four nine crime nine zero nine four nine two seven

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Speaker 1: four six three to Actually Wilcott, juvenile judge and founder

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Speaker 1: of child crime watch dot com. You know, I don't

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Speaker 1: know how this guy did it. Going under the radar

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Speaker 1: having a job as an illegal immigrant for four years,

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Speaker 1: how he got a social Security number and so forth

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Speaker 1: used a fake name regarding his car. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but it's really hard, Ashley. You and I have girls

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Speaker 1: that are about ten years old. Know. I don't let

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Speaker 1: him out of my sight right now, but I can't

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Speaker 1: control when she goes jogging or walking when she's in college.

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Speaker 1: But long story short, this is my Lucy, this is

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Speaker 1: your Katie in just nine years, and it's hard for

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Speaker 1: me to focus on a camera in the courtroom and

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Speaker 1: the defense claiming he had a mental block. Molly was

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Speaker 1: brutally murdered. This is what we know right now. FBI

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Speaker 1: K nine units hunting for the weapon, the murder weapon

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Speaker 1: used in Molly's murder, as an autopsy revealed, the twenty

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Speaker 1: year old IWA student was stabbed dead with quote multiple

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Speaker 1: sharp force blows and she was left face up in

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Speaker 1: a corn field after he scattered a few corn leaves over.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have been in a

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Speaker 1: corn field, but that is not where I want to

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Speaker 1: die and be left. In fact, they had to clear

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Speaker 1: the airspace so chopper wouldn't fly over to see her

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Speaker 1: body or the recovery of her remains. Ashley, Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: makes you want to throw up. Because the other thing

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Speaker 1: to keep in mind, it was a small community, they

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Speaker 1: knew each other, it was safe. Why do people live

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Speaker 1: there in part, and why do they enjoy the lifestyle

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Speaker 1: there in Iowa and that small community because they feel

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Speaker 1: safe and they trust the people there, and they trust

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Speaker 1: that they can go for a run. And and to

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Speaker 1: think that you have a grown daughter who's making adult decisions,

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Speaker 1: who simply goes out to get exercise and this is

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Speaker 1: what happens is unthinkable. One other thing I do want

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Speaker 1: to add, it is very, very common that individuals who

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Speaker 1: are here illegal, illegally do get fake names such security cards.

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Speaker 1: It's very it's the norm because they didn't want to

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Speaker 1: get employed. So that part doesn't surprise me at all

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Speaker 1: in terms of his getting those things. The rest of

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Speaker 1: it's awful. Apparently though they checked it out with the

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Speaker 1: Social Security Administration. Listen to this first. When anyone applies

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Speaker 1: for job at Erabe Farms, they must provide required government identification.

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Speaker 1: In this case, the individual did provide a state issued

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Speaker 1: photo ID and a Social Security card. These items are

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Speaker 1: required for us to complete an E nine which is

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Speaker 1: a federal document. Our practice is to take a second

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Speaker 1: enhanced step to verify the applicants identification. We screen every

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Speaker 1: applicant through the Social Security Administration Social Security Number Verification Service.

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Speaker 1: Two forms of identification is the standard by which employers

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Speaker 1: often validate someone's employment eligibility. In addition, we ran that

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Speaker 1: information through the verification service and the information came back verified.

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Speaker 1: Any idgit or his brother can make a fake driver's license,

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Speaker 1: or a fake idea, even a fake college idea state license.

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Speaker 1: But how do you verify it through the Social Security Administration?

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Speaker 1: You give them the number, I mean, how do they

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Speaker 1: do it? To Kathleen Murphy, how do you go about

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Speaker 1: getting the Social Security Administration to say, yeah, that's him.

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Speaker 1: There's the underbelly that we just don't really know about

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Speaker 1: where he can go and get this information. Nancy, you

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Speaker 1: need to know something. I am leaving today to take

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Speaker 1: my eighteen year old daughter to college for her first

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Speaker 1: day at college on Monday, and fifty miles away. And

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Speaker 1: Molly did everything right. She was in the light of day,

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Speaker 1: she was jogging in her neighborhood. She was in a

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Speaker 1: small town. What is the mother to do? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't. I am so afraid right now for our

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Speaker 1: daughters out there. And I don't believe this guy did

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Speaker 1: this with Molly. That's his first crime, do you. I

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Speaker 1: absolutely do not, And that is why I'm bringing in

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Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrist Dr Daniel Bouber. Dr Bouber, you don't just

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Speaker 1: jump to chasing a woman, Danny, she's running from you.

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Speaker 1: Kill her, probably rape her, kill her and leave her

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Speaker 1: in Cornfield and then stay under the radar for a

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Speaker 1: period of time. I'm telling you, Bober, this is not

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Speaker 1: his first crime. No, I totally agree, New Nancy. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is a guy who was probably profiling young women

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Speaker 1: for a while, who's probably casting different places. Um, I

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Speaker 1: don't believe this is his first crime. He is probably

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Speaker 1: the first time that he got caught in any significant manner. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure that he was very aware that he

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Speaker 1: needed to fly below the radar. But everything about his

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Speaker 1: behavior to me says that he'd done this before. Straight

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Speaker 1: back out to Raymond Judo, Cha about the faking the

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Speaker 1: social Security number and faking the idea. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: a whole body of law immigration specialists that deal with immigrants,

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Speaker 1: illegal immigrants getting quote papers How does it happen? How's

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Speaker 1: this guy there in a town of people and nobody

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Speaker 1: knows he's an illegal immigrant just following women down the

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Speaker 1: street in the car. There's something out there that's called

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Speaker 1: the dark net, and it's the alternative internet that criminals

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Speaker 1: know about. The Russians know about the Chinese people that

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Speaker 1: sneak into your for the Chinese military that are trying

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Speaker 1: to steal American idea ease and social security numbers. There.

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Speaker 1: Whenever you hear on the news that a bank or

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Speaker 1: or a hospital has been their database has been attacked,

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Speaker 1: it's by the criminal elements, the worldwide criminal right. I

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Speaker 1: hear you, and I know you're right. But this ain't

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Speaker 1: James on here. Okay, this is Christian Rivera. Well. He

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Speaker 1: figured out how to get into this country, leader, he

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Speaker 1: figured out how to get a job, He figured how

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Speaker 1: to stay here a long time. He might be smarter

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Speaker 1: than most people think. You can buy social security numbers,

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Speaker 1: you can buy identification. It's out there. The criminal element

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Speaker 1: is way ahead. Uh. I don't say way ahead of

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Speaker 1: law enforcement, but law enforcement is struggling to keep up,

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Speaker 1: including the Social Security administration. So this doesn't surprise me

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Speaker 1: at all. Let me tell you something. Rate you to tell.

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Speaker 1: All you gotta do is go on and Google. Can

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Speaker 1: you fake a Social Security number? Because check it out,

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Speaker 1: it pops up quote. We've put together a few tools

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Speaker 1: to help you generate and validate US social Security numbers.

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Speaker 1: If you have questions, comment, suggestion, contact us. This page

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Speaker 1: will tell you if a social Security number follows the

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Speaker 1: Social Security Administration's numbering plan. They tell you how to

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Speaker 1: do it. Well, that's all, well and good listen to this.

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Speaker 1: It seemed that he followed her, and it seemed to

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Speaker 1: be drawn to her on that particular day, and for

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Speaker 1: whatever reason, he chose to abduct her. So we saw

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Speaker 1: Molly running, and we also saw this black vehicle. It's

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Speaker 1: a black Malibu Chevy Malibu, and so there's some certain

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Speaker 1: features and some distinct features I guess I would say

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Speaker 1: to the vehicle, and that's why we're able to eventually

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Speaker 1: located outside of town. We again had some rather distinct

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Speaker 1: features to the vehicle that allowed us to basically searched

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Speaker 1: the area for it. And it just happened that we

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Speaker 1: were able to locate the vehicle and then subsequently identify

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Speaker 1: Mr Rivera driving the vehicle and that's ultimately what let

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Speaker 1: us to do. You are hearing the special agent speaking

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Speaker 1: out Rick Ron about how Rivera was caught. We are

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Speaker 1: talking about the day of a gorgeous college student just

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Speaker 1: twenty years old. It's almost too much for me to

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Speaker 1: take in Ashley, when you let yourself think about what

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Speaker 1: Molly went through, think about jogging, think about noticing this

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Speaker 1: Chevy Malibu passing her, then turning around and coming back

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Speaker 1: and passing her and coming back, and she's, you know,

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Speaker 1: over a mile away from home, and she starts running

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Speaker 1: faster and faster. She says, I'm gonna call nine one,

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Speaker 1: and then she turns out he's beside her. He's running

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Speaker 1: beside her. Then he's behind her, and she tries to

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Speaker 1: call ninman one and she runs and then she feels

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Speaker 1: him tackle her, and she ends up after god only

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Speaker 1: knows what dead, staring into the sky in a cornfield.

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Speaker 1: That's the reality. And when they they state that clothes

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Speaker 1: were recovered, it seems to suggest a clothes, her clothing

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Speaker 1: was in a different place than her boy me. And

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Speaker 1: that's what her family is living with right now. Wow,

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Speaker 1: politicians use Molly's murder to their own benefit. If you

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Speaker 1: think about what happened to this girl. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how you you cannot break down in tears now, It's

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Speaker 1: it's terrifying. And to make matters even worse and harder,

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Speaker 1: I know, I and along with the family members, I

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Speaker 1: really believed in my heart and hoped this was a

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Speaker 1: case of she's gone somewhere to get away. And so

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Speaker 1: it's even harder because there was so much hope and

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Speaker 1: the father even stated he believed that she was being

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Speaker 1: held somewhere and that she was safe, and so it

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Speaker 1: adds that much more heartache, heart break, and I think

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Speaker 1: everyone has to remember it's not just another story if

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Speaker 1: somebody got murdered, it's another wake up called to really empathize,

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Speaker 1: sympathize with this family and say, oh my god, this

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Speaker 1: is a horrible thing that's happened to her. To Karen Smith,

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Speaker 1: forensics expert joining us at a renowned forensics expert, Karen,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about how it disturbs me so much. But

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Speaker 1: what about the people that have to recover the body

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Speaker 1: and process the same. Uh. First of all, scientifically, Karen,

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Speaker 1: how will they recover the body? What is critical to

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Speaker 1: the recovery of the body the area around the body,

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Speaker 1: the path leading up to the body, his vehicle. Just

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to determine the primary, secondary tertiary crime, saying

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Speaker 1: his home, his apartment. What are we looking for his

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Speaker 1: dirty clothes? Yes, everything. At this point, when you recover

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Speaker 1: a clandestine I'll call it a clandestine grave. At this point,

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Speaker 1: she was covered with leaves. You have to look for

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Speaker 1: everything it could between the body. You have you know

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Speaker 1: her under her fingernails, You've got DNA swabs, you have

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Speaker 1: the cause of death, sharp bours. His car is key.

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Speaker 1: That's going to do the direct linkage between Rivera and

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Speaker 1: Molly Tibbots. The blood in the trunk, he can scrub

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Speaker 1: it clean all he wants, it'll still be there. We

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00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,119
Speaker 1: have chemical processes that can reveal that whether or not

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Speaker 1: he did. Uh. So that's a direct link. The way

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Speaker 1: that they found him was phenomenal police work as far

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Speaker 1: as I'm concerned. And now they just have to tie

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Speaker 1: up these loose ends and directly connect Rivera with Molly

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Speaker 1: Tibbots and that'll be the end of that. This is

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Speaker 1: what I see they should be doing right now. Number One,

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Speaker 1: they should be making, if it exists, casts of any

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Speaker 1: tire tracks. Let me tell you this is not open

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Speaker 1: shut case by any stretch of the imagination. Anything and

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Speaker 1: everything can go wrong at trial, evidence suppressed. Uh A

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Speaker 1: bad you are. I don't know, but this is what

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Speaker 1: I think they need to be doing. Making a cast

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Speaker 1: of any tire marks or footprint marks. Footprint marks must

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Speaker 1: be matched back to his shoes found his home, tire

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00:22:55,400 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: marks back to his Chevy Malibu. The security surveillance how

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00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 1: has to be verified and maintained. You've got to have

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Speaker 1: a chain of custody in order for it to get

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Speaker 1: into court properly. His car, his Chevy Malibu, his trunk

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Speaker 1: has to be processed with a fine tooth comb, looking

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Speaker 1: for fibers from her shorts or her shirt, looking for

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Speaker 1: her hair, looking for touch DNA, looking for blood, looking

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Speaker 1: for her fingerprints. The scene inside the car could be

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Speaker 1: the murder scene. You have to go to his apartment,

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Speaker 1: looking his dirty clothes, find out if there is sperm

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Speaker 1: or jaculate, find out if there's any of her fibers

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Speaker 1: on his clothes, even his shower. It may be too late,

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Speaker 1: but to look for blood. What's the murder weapon? And

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Speaker 1: of course all important in the processing of the body.

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Speaker 1: The fingernails the hands, the mouth, the neck, the genitalia.

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Speaker 1: Everything about Molly must be processed, including that shallow grave

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Speaker 1: where we think she may have been laying, if not

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Speaker 1: all around to the area. Did he drop a cigarette,

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Speaker 1: did something come out of his pocket? Anything, and everything

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Speaker 1: has to be very carefully examined when her when her

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Speaker 1: body's taking her hands have to be bagged so nothing

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Speaker 1: can contaminate her fingernails. And that is just the beginning,

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Speaker 1: because the defense is going to fight tooth and nail. Listen,

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Speaker 1: in this particular case, the coverage that's out there is

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Speaker 1: leaning all one way, and in fact, the government has

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Speaker 1: weighed in at the highest levels of a pre disposition

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Speaker 1: that this young man Christian is guilty, but in our

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Speaker 1: system of justice, is entitled to that presumption of innocence

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Speaker 1: until some evidence is presented. At this time, there's been

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Speaker 1: no evidence presented, your honor, and so we're urging the

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Speaker 1: court to prevent the cameras from coming in here which

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Speaker 1: possibly control some sort of bias or prejudice, and get

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Speaker 1: it into this political controversy a portraying Christian that's something

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Speaker 1: that he isn't. In some ways, I view this as

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00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 1: a political payback for what's swirling around in terms of

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Speaker 1: the media, and the media is feeding into it. They

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Speaker 1: have not made efforts, as far as I can see,

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Speaker 1: to give justice or any type of leaning towards this

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Speaker 1: presumption of innocence not getting what he needs, Raymond Judaica,

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Speaker 1: you're the veteran defense attorney. He's got this lawyer for

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Speaker 1: free representing him. The state's gonna have to pay for

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Speaker 1: all of his experts, all of his legal fees, which

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Speaker 1: will probably be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

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Speaker 1: And if he's talking about illegal immigrants not getting a

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Speaker 1: fair shake, just remember this is being compared to the

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Speaker 1: guy that murdered Kate stein Ley, the illegal immigrant who

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Speaker 1: shot her dead as she walked along with her father

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Speaker 1: at San Francisco. Pierre Jose z Garcia zarat uh. Hello,

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00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: he was acquitted, ray So what is his defense attorney

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Speaker 1: talking about. He's already laying some themes for his opening statement.

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Speaker 1: He is personalizing the defendant by using his first name, Christian.

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Speaker 1: He is making sure the words presumption of innocence, burden

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Speaker 1: of proof beyond a reasonable doubt by the state. He's

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Speaker 1: already laying out a map for the for the only

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Speaker 1: defense he has most likely, and when you went through

429
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: the checklist of evidence, that checklist that you you very

430
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: well went over, and there's probably more things. Tire tracks

431
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,360
Speaker 1: in the farm, in the field from the car, footprints,

432
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: if this is soil, his feet, the defendants feet would

433
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: have left footprints. But equally so for the defense. Let's

434
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 1: say there are other footprints. Let's say the shoe print

435
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: doesn't match my clients shoe, and this is a horrific

436
00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 1: I hate to say this, but I must a defense lawyer.

437
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: Let's say there is DNA from other people on or

438
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: about the body of the decedent. That's that's hard to say,

439
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 1: but it must be said. That might expand the list

440
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 1: of potential defendants or suspects. So as a defense lawyer,

441
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 1: I also want a thorough and clean, meaning a good

442
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: chain of custody, the proper experts to test the DNA.

443
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: As you know, the judge ordered a DNA test. But

444
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 1: as you said, there will be a search warrant and

445
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 1: a search conductive of his belongings, his his hair brush,

446
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: his towel, things like that in his room or his

447
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: house that will look to match DNA to the scene,

448
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 1: to the car and to the decedent's body because I

449
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 1: don't know where she is. I don't know if she's saying,

450
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: we're just hoping for her safe return. That was Molly's mother,

451
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 1: Laura Calderwood, as she was hoping against hope that her

452
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: daughter would be brought home alive. Joining me now, Chuck Roberts,

453
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter, Chuck, what is happening now? Well,

454
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: the family obviously has the unbelievable task of arranging services

455
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: and and it will be sometime obviously before the body

456
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: is released. The autopsy was on Wednesday. Right now, they're

457
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: sort of pushing back against those who claimed that a

458
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: failure of immigration was responsible. Um Molly's and Billy Joe

459
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: Collerwood said, remember evil comes in every color. She wrote

460
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: that on her Facebook page, and Molly's cousin writes also

461
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: on a Facebook page. Please don't compound the atrocity of

462
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: what happened to her by adding racism and hate to

463
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: the equation. Do not turn hashtag Molly's movement into something ugly.

464
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: And there's also you know, interesting comments from the owner

465
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: of Yarrabee's Farms where uh Rivera worked and lived. He

466
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: lived in a trailer on the property only two miles

467
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: where Molly lived. Uh. They apparently never checked his image,

468
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: Gracian status, and his eligibility as you pointed out earlier,

469
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: they only went through a social security verification that there

470
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: was that name attached to that number, and they may

471
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: want to go back and talk to his old girlfriend

472
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: who provided that fake social Security card. As the investigation continues,

473
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: investigators say Molly's alleged killer stalked her, approached her, ran

474
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: behind her, ran beside her, then claimed he blacked out

475
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: and can't remember anything, but he remembered enough to lead

476
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: police to her dead body in the middle of a cornfield.

477
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: To Lee Egan, investigative reporter Crime online dot com, Lee

478
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: regarding the investigation, what more do we know and what

479
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: is happening now? The suspects next court date will be

480
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: on August thirty one. In the meantime, investigators are continuing

481
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: to build the case that and center not really saying

482
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: too much, but he's the only suspect, so they're building

483
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: everything they can around him at this point and be

484
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: pretty much a way to get see what happens next

485
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: to Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge, founder of Child Crime Watch

486
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 1: dot com She's right. They are closetute away somewhere right now,

487
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcott building his defense as Molly's family prepares for

488
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,719
Speaker 1: a funeral, they probably haven't even processed the fact that

489
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: she's actually dead, right, absolutely. And the other thing I

490
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: want to say about him though, is it's important that

491
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: they get his DNA. I'm glad the order was issued

492
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: because they also need to run it through the database

493
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: to see if that matches any other crimes that are

494
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: outstanding right now, because that could lead to similar transactions,

495
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: which could be key, and going against the offense is

496
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: the prosecution in this case. The other thing I wanted

497
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: to say, Nancy, what I have the opportunity is I

498
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: am not blaming anyone in the community, but I am

499
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: suggesting the sister said that this same person had been

500
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: in a car making are uncomfortable and making comments and

501
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: flirting with her. I don't know whether or not she

502
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: reported it at the time, but it's just a reminder

503
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: to all of us. Even if we think something makes

504
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: us uncomfortable, but what we can walk away and it

505
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: goes away. We have got to learn to to report

506
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: these kinds of things that make us feel that way.

507
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: Because you just never know what that person might be

508
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: capable of. And I know we have surveillance video footage,

509
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: but that footage was not able to capture the vehicle's

510
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: license plates. Now police are saying there were quote unusual

511
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: markings on the car that helped investigators track it down.

512
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 1: And it's actually quite a science, uh too. You've got

513
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: investigators that do nothing but this. Very often you will find,

514
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: especially in large urban areas, a whole division and investigators

515
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: detectives that deal with, for instance, stolen cars. They can

516
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: tell you, they can take one look at a car

517
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 1: and tell you pretty much the make, the model, and

518
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: very very often they are based on the tail lights,

519
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: the grill, subtle changes in the car. That's how it

520
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: goes down there. There's a part and you're gonna remember this,

521
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, And um, it's funny in aristoats and there

522
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: are two dogs, their tracker dogs, and one can hold

523
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: up his ear and he can tell you what kind

524
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: of car it is, what's wrong with the back tire,

525
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: and how many how many creatures are in it, and

526
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: how fast it's coming and how far away it is.

527
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: That's a funny anecdote. But in this case. They looked

528
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: at that Chevy Malibu. They didn't have a license plate,

529
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: but they could determine the make and the model. Then

530
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: they figured out in that population of two thousand, who

531
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: was driving a Chevy Malibu. Then they said it had

532
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: unusual markings on it and that is how they found him.

533
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: This is going to be attacked in court, Kathleen. If

534
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: they can do it, the defense will get that video

535
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: thrown out. They won't you throw now, They will not

536
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: get that video through Now. This guy is obviously done

537
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: this before, and I would suggest, Nancy that there are

538
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: videos if they are able to go back and see

539
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: what he did to the sister of that young woman

540
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: that came back in. Is there other evidence and at

541
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: the minute, there's another connection, there's another connection, Kathleen to

542
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: Karen Smith, you're the forensics expert. Isn't it true that Rivera,

543
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: the perp, the alleged perp girlfriend is Facebook friends with

544
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: Molly and her brother. There's the connection right there. Yeah,

545
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: that It sounds to me like there's two degrees of

546
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: separation there. So obviously to me, it sounds like he

547
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: knew at least who she was, if not being just

548
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: an acquaintance. Of so that social media account and his

549
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: digital footprint are going to come into a huge part

550
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: of this trial. It's gonna be interesting to see what

551
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: they can dig up on. And we are learning at

552
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: this hour FBI canine units hunting for the weapon used

553
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: to murder Molly Tibbitts, as the autopsy revealing she was

554
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: stabbed dead with multiple sharp force blows, multiple sharp force blows.

555
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: And we are quoting from law enforcement and authorities, FBI

556
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: K nine units at this hour hunting for the weapon

557
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: used in Molly Tibbitts murder, her autopsy revealing she was

558
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: quote stabbed to death with multiple sharp force blows. Now,

559
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: what that says to me right off the bat is

560
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 1: the word multiple. We all know that premeditation under the

561
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: law takes the twinkling of an eye a moment. The

562
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 1: time it takes for you to pull the trigger is

563
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: time enough under the law to form premeditation. It does

564
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: not a choir, a long drawn out plan, such a

565
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: poisoning someone over a period of months or hiring a

566
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 1: hit manner lying in wait. It can happen just like that, Bam, premeditation.

567
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: The point multiple sharp force blows that shows a it

568
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: was not an accident such as she fell on a

569
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: rock and and hit her head. Multiple means many and

570
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: many means. There's time in between each blow to form

571
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: intent that is murder. One joining me right now, Dr

572
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: Chloe Carmichael, New York psychologist and founder a Transformation Products

573
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 1: dot Com. Also with me, Joseph Scott Morgan, as you know,

574
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 1: death investigator, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University and author of

575
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet. I want to talk about what

576
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: we're learning from the autopsy way in analyze Joe scot

577
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: Okay Nancy. When she was found, she was found in

578
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: what would be considered to an advanced moderate state of

579
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: decomposition in this corn field, if you'll recall covered with stocks. Now,

580
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 1: this is a particularly difficult case in the sense that

581
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: her body has begun to break down. And what a

582
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 1: lot of people don't know is that in cases like this,

583
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: one of the things that we'll do in the mortgage

584
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: that we will take the body, lay it out, and

585
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: we will do full body length X rays. Now, this

586
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: is key because we're talking about sharp force injuries. That's

587
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,399
Speaker 1: what they've identified as the primary cause of death here.

588
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 1: Sharp force injuries he's essentially driving this metal object into

589
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: her body, and every time that he does this, there

590
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: is a potential that this break, that this blade is

591
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: actually fracturing. So one of the things they're gonna be

592
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: looking for our little metallic uh, metallic bodies that are

593
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: throughout the body over the area where these wounds took place.

594
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: A good A good thing about this is that her

595
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: body is so decomposed, they're not Some of the stuff

596
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: will not be allowed in court. But what's very powerful

597
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: is that these X rays will be shown in court.

598
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: And you're telling me Joseph's got Morgan in the X

599
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 1: rays will reveal metallic fragments. Now, are metallic fragments typically

600
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 1: um left behind when a sharp force blow occurs that

601
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: must be naked to the uh, invisible to the naked eye.

602
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 1: Because I've never seen them and a knife wound. So

603
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: you're telling me this is normal, it is. It occurs

604
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: with great frequency in in my in my sphere, at least,

605
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: I've seen them over and over again, and you have

606
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: to be careful to look for them. But they are

607
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 1: actually there. And this is another important piece here. If

608
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: that blade is fractured in any way whatsoever, and they

609
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: can't find them, and they've eventually find the blade. This

610
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: is gonna be a tie back because metallurgical analysis will

611
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: tie that fragment back to the blade itself and it

612
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: will be there and they and that's another piece of

613
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: linkage as the lawyers put this case together. Well, we

614
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: also know that the FBI Evidence Response Team swoops in

615
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: just moments after the autopsy revealed Molly killed by multiple

616
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: sharp force injuries to look for the murder weapon. You know,

617
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 1: I think it takes a particular type of killer to

618
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: kill with a knife. But hold on, before I go

619
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 1: to Dr Chloe, are we sure that the murder weapon

620
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 1: is a knife? When they say multiple sharp force injuries?

621
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 1: Could that be from a rock? Could it be from

622
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: another object? Are you convinced it's a knife? Joseph Scott

623
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: Morgan Not necessarily, Nancy, because there their hedge and their

624
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: bets here. When they say multiple sharp force injuries, what

625
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 1: they are saying is that it was sharp enough to

626
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 1: penetrate the body. Mull Ti times. Now, obviously logic would

627
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: Dick penetrade the body. Why do you say penetrate the body? Well,

628
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: because these are are sharp. Now, whether it's a slicing injury, say,

629
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: for instance, it's an incised wound, which you know you've

630
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: heard the old term dying by a thousand, by a

631
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:21,479
Speaker 1: thousand cuts. You can't slice the body as opposed to penetrating, say,

632
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: for instance, the chest wall where it's driven into the body.

633
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: But you're talking about a multiple frenzied event. Here is

634
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: what it sounds like to me. I've got another thought

635
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: for you, Joseph Scott morgan Um. When they're saying multiple

636
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: sharp force injuries, sharp force blows that could be hit

637
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: in the head with a rock or or could it No,

638
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: because when they say because if it was hit in

639
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 1: the head with the rock, they would frame that by

640
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 1: using blunt sharp Now, what you will see many times

641
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: with with these sharp force injuries, you'll see bruising that's

642
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 1: left by what we refer to as the hilt mark.

643
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: If he buries this knife into her so deep the

644
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 1: hilt or that that break that's on the that's on

645
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: the handle can actually leave a bruised area on the body.

646
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: And this is gonna be key, Nancy. Did he do

647
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 1: this in the field or did he actually do this

648
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: in that car? That is a mobile rolling crime scene day.

649
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: It is a necessity that that vehicle is locked down,

650
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: because if she has been stabbed multiple times, Nancy, that

651
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: that environment within that car will just be just be

652
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: effuse with with with blood evidence. You know. Another issue,

653
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: another issue here. I want to be very clear and

654
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: I'll let you explain it. Technically, what is a sharp

655
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 1: force blow? And they are very clearly stating stabbed to death.

656
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: So to me that rules out of rock or another

657
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: blunt object. But what's important to me about the fact

658
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: that it most likely is a knife is that he

659
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: came into it with a weapon. It's not as if

660
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:09,320
Speaker 1: he just lost his temper and grabbed a rock and

661
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: hit her in the head. He came with a weapon. Yeah,

662
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: he he came prepared. And again this goes to this

663
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: idea of a premeditative or prepared event. As you stated earlier,

664
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 1: he had time to form intent. You know, if he

665
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: is stopping her along the road, he sees something that

666
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: he is uh, you know that he's he's driven towards

667
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: in her, in her Uh. He shows up, he knows

668
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: that he's going to overpower her. How do you, okay,

669
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: how do you get her into that car? That's the

670
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: thing that's always bugged me about this, Nancy, how do

671
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 1: you subdue her to the point where you get her

672
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: in the car? You know, he dismounted the car, got out,

673
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: And what he is saying about his own admission and

674
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: this the statement that he gave them is that he

675
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 1: walked alongside her talking to her. Well, she's he even says,

676
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: she stated that she was going to call the police. Well,

677
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: how do you compel her to get into the vehicle

678
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 1: with you? Well, the only thing I can think is

679
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: that he had some kind of weapon with him that's

680
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: driving her back towards this vehicle. Get in the car

681
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: with me right now. And again, we don't know what

682
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: really happened after that because he quote unquote blocked his memory.

683
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: Where in the hell that means? And you know what

684
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 1: happened in that interroom? Are we talking about sexual assault

685
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,919
Speaker 1: in that vehicle? Did he drive her somewhere else? Hold

686
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: on just a moment, I know Dr Chloe wants saying.

687
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 1: Dr Chloe, New York psychologist, founder of Transformation Products dot

688
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: com dot com dotr Chloe weigh in, Well, Nancy, I

689
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 1: actually really agree with what Jeff Scott was just getting

690
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 1: at there, which is it's quite a curious statement on

691
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 1: his part, that he quote blocked his memory Um at

692
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: that particular time. You know whether he's unable or unwilling

693
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,760
Speaker 1: to recall that, or whether he has any other history

694
00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: of his memory just suddenly lapsing. Um. It's seems really

695
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 1: implausible to me. Um. And obviously then he covered her

696
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 1: body afterwards, so he was actually I think it sounds

697
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 1: like quite cognizant of what he was doing. So it

698
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: almost feels to me as if saying that he blocked

699
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: his memory is some kind of a juvenile attempt to

700
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: avoid taking responsibility for what he did. You are listening

701
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: to crime stories with Nancy Grace. We are also learning

702
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 1: right now that police have descend it on the home

703
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 1: where Christian Rivera lives, just four miles from where Molly

704
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 1: was kidnapped, The place strown with beer cans and garbage.

705
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: This is what we know at this hour, as we

706
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: wait for justice to unfold. Right now, Molly's family and

707
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 1: her longtime sweetheart are planning a funeral. And I can

708
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: tell you I'm member of my fiance's funeral. Hardly at all,

709
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: Hardly at all. It was like a haze, like I

710
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: was seeing it through like this, Um, reddish yellow burning

711
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: haze like a filter, the little bits of it that

712
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: I remember. So right now, all I believe that we

713
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 1: can do to help Molly is to pray her for

714
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: her family and that justice unfolds. Listen to this. Every day,

715
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: I feel Molly's presence with me, Um. You know, sometimes

716
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: I just feel her sitting on my shoulder. And Molly

717
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: was an incredibly strong young woman. And I don't know

718
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: that I have the strengthen me, but Molly's lending me

719
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: her strength every day, every night. And yes I have

720
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: my moments of complete mouthdowns, but it is through this

721
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: strength that is somehow, and I don't know how being

722
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,359
Speaker 1: bestowed upon me that I am able to get through

723
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: every morning, every noon, every night. That is Molly's mother, Laura.

724
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,439
Speaker 1: May she have some peace in the days that come.

725
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace's Crime Story, signing off goodbye friend,