1 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph 2 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. There was a family party being 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: held at the Residents on No Crafts, attended by about 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: twenty five people. Through the edge of the door. He 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: was dressed in a Santa suit and brought with him 6 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: a Poe made device BIS basically consisted of two tanks, 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: one which contained either OXN CEO two and the other, 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: smaller tank appeared to contain racy turn He walked up 9 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: to the door. Once he knocked on the door, ring 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: the doorbell and gained entrance. He immediately was confronted with 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: an eight year old child who thought Santa Claus had 12 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: come to the house. Uh. He shot her once in 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: the face and then proceeded inside the residents. What is 14 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: he wearing? Okay, let me know what. The Santa Claus 15 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: suit that he was wearing dead melt onto his body. 16 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: What is it about the holidays, specifically Christmas that can 17 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: engender so much love and goodwill and then on the 18 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: other hand, at the other end of the spectrum generate 19 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: so much hate and animosity and tension. I'm talking specifically 20 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: about holidays gone bad. Let's just start with a man 21 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: a husband, a father who ends up making a home 22 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: made flame thrower, goes to the home and goes berserk. 23 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: And let me remind everybody, this guy, Bruce Pardo, as 24 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: I recall, was an aeronautical engineer. Take a listen to 25 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: this nine one one callow about your health right now? 26 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: The two houses down on the google. Okay, at your house? Now, hecause, 27 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: what do you think your name is? Bird? Sojo? Okay, 28 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: and hell I eat you guys? Who is he to you? 29 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: He was, he's play as brother and like he's they're 30 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: close to say now, okay on one second, Okay, he said, 31 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: I don't know who I know. I know man am 32 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: the county. Okay, your whole family both any fight? I know? 33 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: I know? Okay, be off there trying to get to 34 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: you guys. Okay. He came in through the entrance to 35 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: the door and there's a set of plasture and I 36 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: didn't see from when he shot. I heard the shots 37 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 1: and they were like poppings, and I wasn't sure what 38 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 1: it was. So we all and we were started panicking 39 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: and running. So we all dove under the tenue. Some 40 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: of us do with some of us, but I don't 41 00:02:55,440 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: know who My mom caused him on the map. There't there? Okay, 42 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: what is she wearing? What is she wearing? How you 43 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: changed his coat from Santa Claus? Okay, let me know. 44 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: I'm lappings. The man who dresses as Santa slaughters nine 45 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: people at a Christmas party using what else I mean, 46 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: of course, a homemade flamethrower, as they quote Christmas present 47 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: to set his house on fire. I want to go 48 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: out to John Linley, Crime Stories investigative reporter. This guy 49 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: was no idiot. I mean, he is an engineer that 50 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: creates a homemade flamethrower and then the qu de Gras 51 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: wraps it and Christmas wrap and puts a bow on 52 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: it to get it into the home. He shows up unannounced, John, 53 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: what exactly happened? Well, I'd love to begin with a 54 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: love story, and that's of Joseph and Alicia Ortega. They 55 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: had been married for fifty two years, had created a 56 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: huge family that just became bigger and bigger with each 57 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: passing year. Joe and Alicia love nothing more than each 58 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: Christmas Eve to gather their entire family with them in Covina, California, 59 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: a suburb of Los Angeles. The children and their families 60 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: would begin arriving early in the day. The celebration would 61 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 1: go well into the night, with the house packed to 62 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: the gills with relatives. Later in the evening, the adults 63 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: would play a lively game of poker while the children played. 64 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: Now keep this scene in your head. For many years 65 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: a neighbor would dress as Santa, ring the doorbell and 66 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: surprise the children with a bunch of presents. So on December, 67 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: all seemed quite normal when the doorbell rang around eleven 68 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: thirty PM and one of the younger grandchildren, an eight 69 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: year old girl, answered the door to see Santa standing there. 70 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 1: As the family was about to discover though this was 71 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: anything but a storybook visit it from St. Nick. Just 72 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: moments after the door opened, the man dressed as Santa 73 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: pulls out two handguns and immediately shoots the little girl. 74 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: He then steps over first she's the eight year old girl, yes, 75 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: right right as he enters the house. He then steps 76 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: over her enters the house, he moves back and forth 77 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: between shooting and discriminately and then shooting some family members 78 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: point blank, execution style. There are approximately twenty five or 79 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: so family members or extended or taga family and the 80 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: house that night so there was mass chaos as sisters 81 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 1: and brothers, cousins, niece's nephews run in all directions trying 82 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: to get away from the shooter. In the midst of 83 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: all this, the shooter stops. He stops firing and walks 84 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: over to this large wrapped present that he has rolled 85 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: in with him under that festive paper and the box 86 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: is as you men, and a homemade flamethrower. He begins 87 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: spraying what is discovered to be racing fuel, high octane 88 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: fuel around the house. There's a huge explosion and the 89 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: house is quickly engulfed in flames. The last of the 90 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: living family members are seen jumping out of the windows 91 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: to escape the blaze. Guys, Amazingly, this this flamethrower is 92 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: actually full of high octane car racing fuel and it's 93 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: spewed around the home to catch the home on fire. 94 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: Okay with me, our special guest Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator, 95 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCullum, cold case investigator and the director of the 96 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: Cold Case Institute, Crime Stories reporter John Limley, and joining 97 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: us today. Dr Carol Lieberman, psychiatrist, radio and TV talk 98 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: show personality, bestselling author. She's a keynote speaker and expert 99 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: witness on many subjects. Dr Carol Lieberman, it is just 100 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: such a thrill to have you with us. Before I 101 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: go any further with the flamethrower, can I ask you something, 102 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: Dr Lieberman, no offense, John Allen and Joe Scott? What 103 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: is wrong with men? Really? I mean, the thought of 104 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: going and creating a homemade flamethrower and wrapping it in 105 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: Christmas wrap in a bow. I just that would never 106 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: have dawned on me. I mean, I guess moms are 107 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: too busy raising children and running around town as a 108 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: chauffeur and working. Right, who has time to make a flamethrower? 109 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: That's right? Well, you know it's actually a metaphor for 110 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: just how much rage Bruce pardo Head towards his wife. 111 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: They had just divorced a week before, and um, you know, 112 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: which is so typical in all of these holiday killings. Uh, 113 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: there is so much rage, so much family resentment that um, 114 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,559 Speaker 1: you know this is this was his way of really 115 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: showing her just just how burned up he was. I mean, 116 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: but to go to so much effort to create a 117 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: homemade flame thrower, I don't even know what that would 118 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: look like I'm imagining, imagining some sort of scepteral looking thing. 119 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: I don't even know what that would be. Well, I'm 120 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: not really sure either exactly what it would look like. 121 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: But um, you know this, he was so angry. You 122 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: know that you mentioned that she had children. During their divorce, 123 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: the judge decided that he was going to pay for 124 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 1: her children and also pay her somebody as well. And 125 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: this was when he finally decided that he was resentful 126 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: towards her during the marriage for having to pay for 127 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: her children. And then when they got divorced and the 128 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: judge said that he still had to pay for them, 129 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 1: that was too much. Bruce Pardo actually suffered third degree 130 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: burns on both arms and it appears as Santa Claus 131 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: suit he was wearing melted onto his body. The dichotomy 132 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 1: of coming as Father Christmas, Santa he is nothing but 133 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: loving and full of good, cheer and merriment. The dichotomy 134 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: doctor Carol Lieberman of him dressing as Santa with murder 135 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,719 Speaker 1: on his mind? What does that mean? Where does from? 136 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: Where does that spring? That is a particular betrayal. Um, 137 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: you know, it's like clowns who kill we society of 138 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:52,719 Speaker 1: society love Santa, love clowns. Most people love clowns and 139 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: um so for so for someone dressed in a suit 140 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: like in a Santa suit, it isn't especially I mean, yes, 141 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: he was doing it so that he could get into 142 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 1: the house and so on, but also I think there 143 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: was a metaphor um he was trying to say that 144 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 1: he didn't want to be Santa perpetually for her and 145 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: her children. He didn't want to keep playing Santa in 146 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: the sense of keep supporting them. You know what's interesting 147 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: about this is John Lemway. Isn't it true that he 148 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: had no criminal record whatsoever before this? That is indeed 149 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 1: the case, which just made it all the more uh 150 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 1: impossible for them to figure out exactly what was going on. 151 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 1: Police speculate that the motive of the attack, as we've hinted, 152 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 1: was related to not only the divorce, but a spade 153 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: of problems that Bruce Pardot had encountered over the months prior. 154 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: As we've said, his wife of one year, Sylvia, had 155 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: settled for divorce just one week before this incident. Bruce 156 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: had been fired from his job as an electrical engineer 157 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,439 Speaker 1: just in July as well. The couple had wed, but 158 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: soon grew apart. After their marriage, Mr Pardeau refused to 159 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: open a joint account with his wife. He also expected 160 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: his wife to take care of their three children with 161 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 1: her own finances. Weren't they his biological children or now? Yes, However, 162 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:23,959 Speaker 1: there was another child that they discover exists through a 163 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:29,079 Speaker 1: woman uh that he was with before. And this is 164 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: an interesting uh scenario here. Apparently this child that he 165 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: had with this woman earlier in his life. Uh, he 166 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: had been at home alone with the child. The child 167 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: had gotten out of its crib, uh, entered the swimming 168 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: pool and almost died, did not, but was really left 169 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: in a vegetative state. Oh my goodness. So I want 170 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: you to hear what the police chief there in Covina 171 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: has to say. Again. This happened about pm on Christmas Eve. 172 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: There was a family party being held at the residents 173 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: on No Crest, attended by about twenty five people. It 174 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: appears that Mr Pardod drove to the location and parked 175 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: his car in the driveway one house east. At the party, 176 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: he was dressed in a Santa suit and brought with 177 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,719 Speaker 1: him a homemade device which will release pictures of that 178 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: later for the press. Device basically consisted of two tanks, 179 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 1: one which contained either auction or CEO two and the 180 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: other smaller tank appeared to contain racing fuel. Um he 181 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: had was a homemade device that was basically built where 182 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 1: once he mixed those two items, it would turn into 183 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: a vapor or atomize, and he was able to deliver 184 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 1: that inside the residents. He walked up to the door. 185 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: Once he knocked on the door, rang the doorbell, and 186 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 1: gained entrance. He immediately was confronted with an eight year 187 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: old child who thought Santa Claus had come to the house. Uh. 188 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 1: He shotter once in the face and then proceeded inside 189 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: the residence. Mr Pardo was armed with four handguns when 190 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: he went into the residents. All four handguns have been 191 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: recovered and the best of our belief, as of right now, 192 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: all guns were empty. As he went into the house, 193 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 1: he began shooting at the partygoers, again indiscriminately. It appears 194 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,719 Speaker 1: that he did have some intended targets, those being the 195 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: family members uh an immediate family of his ex wife. 196 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,239 Speaker 1: Once the shooting stopped, it appeared that he then retrieved 197 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:36,599 Speaker 1: the the homemade device, activated that and went through the 198 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: house basically delivering that and releasing a gas vapor inside 199 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: the house. There's no indication that he ignited the vapor, 200 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: but the vapor was able to be ignited either by 201 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: a pilot light or if there was a candle inside 202 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: the house, because obviously there was an explosion that occurred 203 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: inside the house. Mr Pardo was severely injured during that explosion. 204 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: He suffered third degree burns on both arms. It also 205 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 1: appears that the Santa Claus suit that he was wearing 206 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: dead melt onto his body. Imagine this same party goers 207 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: running to neighbors homes to call police. One woman broke 208 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: her ankle leaping to safety from one of the home's 209 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: bedroom windows. A boy flees the home screaming into the street. 210 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: They're shooting my family. They're shooting my family, as the 211 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: home goes up in flames. It just I don't understand 212 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: why something about the holidays set off so much hatred. 213 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: Joe's got, Morgan, How can you process a scene like that? 214 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: It's a nightmare, Nancy, because this is what we refer 215 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: to as a stratified scene, which means you've got layer. 216 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: If you'll imagine a big layer cake, you've got layer 217 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: upon layer upon evidence. Not only do you have things 218 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: like you know, this guy when he walked in was 219 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: firing a nine millimeter pistol. Uh. There were a couple 220 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: of weapons involved, So the UM, the nature of these 221 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: rounds there is going to be very unique to each weapon. Uh. 222 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: You've got people that are trampling over one another. And 223 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: then when you put it on top of everything, the 224 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: explosion that took place as a result of as high 225 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: octane fuel that ignited. UM, it's it's mass chaos uh 226 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: in this environment. And for an investigator, when you walk 227 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: onto a scene like this, it gives you pause. Your 228 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: mind begins to swirl. So when you're handling something like this, 229 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: you have to be very methodical, take very careful steps 230 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: one by one, and work your way through it very 231 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: very slowly. I mean, police find the body's badly burned 232 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: of eight victims who were just gathered at a family 233 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: gathering for Christmas. As they entered the ruins after this 234 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: fire was finally put out, officers met with a scene 235 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: that was indescribable, said police Chief Kim ray Any. The 236 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: ninth body wasn't even discovered until the next day. Nancy, 237 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: if I could, if I can interject one more thing 238 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: about the nature of this fire. You know, when most 239 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: people people into vernacular, they'll say things like, well, they 240 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: burned to death. Most people don't burn to death in fires. 241 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: Most people die of smoke inhilation, as we all well know. However, 242 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: in this particular case, when you've got high octane fuel 243 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: in a very closed environment, what will happen is the 244 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: people that are alive, that have not succumbed to gunshot 245 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: wounds will inhalate what's for two, a superheated gas. And 246 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: so this is very horrible that the the interlining of 247 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: the throat and the lungs will just automatically just kind 248 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: of singe. It's a very very painful way to die. 249 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: So not only are you inhalating the debris that's being consumed, 250 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: you're also inhilating the superheated gas, which in and of 251 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: itself is a whole different layer of terror on top 252 00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: of all the rest of it. You know, what's so 253 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: is another disturbing layer. To doctor Carroll Lieberman for those 254 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: of you just joining us, a rampage goes down just 255 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 1: before Christmas. Uh, my whole family is wiped out. More 256 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: than the family. People were quoted as saying doctor Carroll 257 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: Lieberman that this this guy Pardon was quote the nicest 258 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: guy you can imagine, always a pleasure to talk to, 259 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: always a big smile, Always work the as usher every 260 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: Sunday evening for the past six years, working the five 261 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: thirty mass, the children's mass. How can someone so loving 262 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 1: and so generous and kind suddenly turn into a mass murderer. Yes, 263 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: you know we often hear that with when someone's um, 264 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: when there's some big crime in the neighbors all say, oh, 265 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: he was such a nice guy. I know. Um, well, 266 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: you know there's no relationship though that is as intimate 267 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: as he would have had with his wife. And this spurning, 268 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: you know, her moving out with the kids, and um, 269 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: the disappointment of the relationship ending the way it did 270 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: and so on. Um, that brings up a lot of rage. 271 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 1: And connected with the holidays, I mean, you know when 272 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,479 Speaker 1: our reaction to the holidays, I mean, of course you've 273 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 1: heard of holiday blues and so on. You know, how 274 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: we relate to the holidays has to do so much 275 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: with how we were as children, what happened during the 276 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: holidays when we were children, and we bring that the 277 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: sense of whether we were whether we felt deprived during 278 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: the holidays, excluded like he was excluded from this party. Um, 279 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: there are different things the hot buttons that get triggered, 280 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: particularly during the holidays. I want to pause as we 281 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 1: examine what about Christmas uh and the holidays brings out 282 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,719 Speaker 1: the worst in some people. I want to thank our partner. 283 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: It's link A k C. Now, if you're like me, 284 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: you don't leave your dog out of all the fun. 285 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: Oh yes, he totally has a stocking. And so does 286 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: that horrible little cat that keeps climbing up the Christmas tree. Well. 287 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 1: This year's must have a gift for dogs and their 288 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: owners is the link A k C Smart collar. It's 289 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 1: backed by the American Kennel Club. The link A k 290 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: C collar is a GPS locator, a fitness activity tracker 291 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: for a dog, yes, for a dog, all control through 292 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: a smartphone app. It even has an L E D 293 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 1: light and temperature sensor. Now this is the part I 294 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: like the GPS locator. Forget about the locator I want 295 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: to put on my husband. This is from my dog. 296 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: I'm much more concerned about where he is. I need 297 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: to know where fat Boy is. Did he get out 298 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 1: of the yard? Is he running down the street? Did 299 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: your dog walker take him where he's supposed to? You 300 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: can see exactly where your dog is right on the app. 301 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: It's total peace of mind. My favorite part that I 302 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: like to talk about is the wellness tracker. Doesn't matter 303 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: how old or fat your dog is, whether it's a 304 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: pure breed or a little mutt like mine. Link a 305 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: k C shows the exact amount of activity every dog needs. Again, 306 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: forget that fit bit from my husband, I'm worried about 307 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: fat boy getting exercise. It's easy to set up, there's 308 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 1: a size for every dog, and it's super comfy and 309 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: very attractive. You should see how cute fat Boy looks 310 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 1: in his a k C collar. As a matter of fact, 311 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: go to our Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter to see the 312 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 1: pictures we posted a fat Boy now. The name they 313 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: gave him at the pound was Nitro, But because he 314 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: fell asleep in a bag of food one night and 315 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 1: his stomach was actually so big it kind of hung 316 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 1: over to one side, That's how he got renamed fat Boy. 317 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: Keep your dog safe, happy and healthy. Try and leave 318 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: a k C risk free ninety days. 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At a time when we celebrate everything good 328 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: in the world, how that could somehow be twisted and 329 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: contorted into something so evil. We now travel to Fort 330 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: Lauderdale where a guy, a dad Paul Mary, has dinner. Oh, 331 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 1: a wonderful holiday dinner, sing songs around the piano, Christmas 332 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: songs and then suddenly oh and hymns out of the 333 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: church hymnal and then suddenly unloads. It all ends in 334 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: a massacre where he executes an entire family. John Lemley 335 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: another holiday, a festive, peaceful, loving get together a family 336 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 1: and friends goes completely arrived. What happened? There were no arguments, warnings, 337 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:41,360 Speaker 1: or even red flags before he started the rampage uh marriage, 338 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: shot his seventy nine year old aunt to death, killed 339 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: his twin sisters, one of whom was pregnant. Um, it's 340 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: not eight months pregnant exactly, just you know, a month 341 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: or so away from delivering. It's not clear exactly who 342 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: was shot when, but the blood bath could have been 343 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:07,959 Speaker 1: much worse with sixteen family members present. Uh. Marriage ut 344 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: five at the time also pointed the gun at his uncle, 345 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 1: but it twice would not fire. At one point, Uh, 346 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: he turned and started to walk away and said, I 347 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: have been waiting for twenty years to do this. Oh, 348 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: my stars, waiting for twenty years to do this. You 349 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: know to Dr Carroll Lieberman, psychiatrists, radio and TV talk 350 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: show host, personality, a best selling author, speaker. You know, 351 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: Dr Carroll Lieberman, you have seen so much. Uh as 352 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: an expert, I still don't understand how Holidays, when we're 353 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: celebrating everything good in the world, as the Prince of 354 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: peace comes to our world, how it could all be 355 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: so twisted and horrible. And I guess my specific question 356 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,719 Speaker 1: right now is no warning flags, no mental illness history, 357 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: no episodes of uncontrolled anger. Nothing. Well, actually, um, he did. 358 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: He was going to his attorneys were going to try 359 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: to do an insanity defense. Um, and that's how he 360 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: got to strike a plea. Well, and then there's a 361 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: story about how he went to see a doctor, although 362 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: it's not clear what doctor he you know, whether it 363 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 1: was a psychiatrist. Um, but the idea that he said, 364 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: he's been waiting twenty years to do this. So he's 365 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: thirty five years old. That means when he was fifth. 366 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: Since the time he was fifteen, he has had all 367 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: this resentment jealousy of his twin sisters who were younger, 368 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: so they replaced him in the family. You know, the 369 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: typical sibling rivalry. Well it's not so typical when he 370 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: shoots them all, but um, but he was jealous of 371 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,880 Speaker 1: them and he one of the people that he killed 372 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: was the six year old little girl who was performing. 373 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: She was singing. She was supposed to be in the Nutcracker, 374 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: and so she performed in front of all the relatives. 375 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: So what it had to do with is how he 376 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: was not getting enough attention. He was feeling like the 377 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: family wasn't paying enough attention to him, and since he 378 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: was fifteen, he felt that way. And hey, he had 379 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: this resentment stored up for twenty years and finally, um, 380 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: you know, he let loose and he went to this 381 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: There were there were some warning signs in the sense 382 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,719 Speaker 1: that his sister and he had his sister took out 383 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: a restraining order but then dropped that. So you know, 384 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: this is such a good example of a family not 385 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: paying enough attention. Well, like he was complaining about not 386 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: paying enough attention to the psychological issues that were plaguing 387 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: him up until this moment in time. There was no 388 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: indication he had any mental illness there. He has not 389 00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: been treated nothing. He had had disagreements with one relative 390 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: and they took out a t r O and then 391 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: dropped it almost immediately. What's so shocking to me, the fact, 392 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic Expert, Professor Forensics at Jacksonville State University, 393 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: is that these victims were totally taken by surprise. I 394 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: mean they were literally standing around the piano. One of 395 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: the daughters. They just had this huge dinner holiday dinner, 396 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 1: and they were all around. They were looking at note cards. 397 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: His daughter, Michela, had written about how thankful she was 398 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: for her family and strung them on a clothes line, 399 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,239 Speaker 1: and she suddenly started singing. It was kind of an 400 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: impromptu dress rehearsal. She was performing the Nutcracker. The very 401 00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: next day she was daughter Michela, And in the middle 402 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: of all this marriage shows up and of course they 403 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: let him in and he has the dinner. He's standing 404 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: around the piano. Everything seems to be fine, and then 405 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: out of the blue, he pulls out a gun and 406 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:24,959 Speaker 1: methodically targets victims, shooting his twin sisters, Carla, a real 407 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: estate agent, and Lisa, who was eight months pregnant. Like 408 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: the daughter Michela. Both of them loved to sing. They 409 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: did this every year at Christmas and Thanksgiving. He shoots 410 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 1: his aunt Raymonde, his brother in law Patrick, another man 411 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: who happened to be there, Clifford. That wasn't all. That 412 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: wasn't all. He goes into a baby's room. He sees 413 00:27:54,720 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: her there and murders her. Beside the baby's bed was 414 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: a little novel that she had been writing about a squirrel, 415 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: where of course the squirrel can talk and sing, and 416 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: she was actually writing a book. She would have turned 417 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: seven a few days later. Joe Scott, how do you 418 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: process a scene like that? It's hard to get past it, Nancy, 419 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: because as as a as an investigator, you want to 420 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: look at the physical evidence and assess what you see 421 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: before you relative to the scientific value. But one of 422 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: the problems that you encounter is that when you do this, 423 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna wax philosophical for a moment, is that 424 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: you drag your own humanity in there with you. And 425 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: sometimes it's very, very difficult to view these things and 426 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: not be put off emotionally by what you're seeing. And 427 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: it's a surreal event many times because and I like 428 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: in this when I'm teaching my classes, I tell I 429 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: tell my my students many times, listen, you're there to 430 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: view the abnormal in the context of the normal. And 431 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: what what's more kind? What's more normal? Well, what's more peaceful? 432 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: A better word than to have family all gathered around 433 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: during the holiday season. You're singing around the piano, people 434 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: are celebrating live, it's joyful, it's festive, and then all 435 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: of a sudden, carnage visits. It's it's pure hell on earth. 436 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: And you're having to contextualize all this stuff as an 437 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: investigator and process it and try to figure out what 438 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: happened to these individuals. And then you begin to kind 439 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: of interweave their stories about how much they suffered in 440 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: these events. And it's very very hard and and a 441 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: lot of people, you know, they sit back and they 442 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: look at investigators and police officers to say, I don't 443 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: understand why you're jaded. I don't understand why you had 444 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: this twisted view of the world. And it is because 445 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: of the fact that we always see in three D 446 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: living color before us that the abnormal in the context 447 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: of the normal. Well, I don't know so much that 448 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: it's jaded. Is that you at some point it's to 449 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: get through it. You have two numb yourself or you 450 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: just can't keep going. I mean when I read, when 451 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: I've studied this case for this moment, I mean, there's 452 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: this six year old little girl who the dad says, 453 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: she's quote just our life. I don't know how we're 454 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,719 Speaker 1: ever going to recover. And you you look at them, 455 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: there's an eight months pregnant mom. I mean, I remember 456 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: at when I was six months. You know, I gave 457 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: birth so prematurely. I never made it to eight months, 458 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: but I could hardly walk just it was so difficult. 459 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: And here's this mom eight months pregnant, dead, her twin 460 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: sister dead. And then to even suggest John Limley Crime 461 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter that he was insane, it doesn't work 462 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: because he has the wherewithal to then hop in his 463 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: car and go on the run. He goes straight out 464 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: after gunning down a whole family, he jumps into his 465 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: royal blue Toyota camera and heads off. In fact, the 466 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: police immediately alert Michigan authorities because they think he was 467 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: headed there. I mean, he knew exactly what he was doing. 468 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: Because he goes on the run. There had to be 469 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: a plan in place after the mass murder. Marriage was, 470 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: as you say, on the lamb for weeks until the 471 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: tip was called in. After an episode of America's Most 472 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: Wanted highlighted uh, this murder case and another thing again 473 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: to Carol Lieberman, Doctor Carol Lieberman and Joseph S got 474 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: more good also with me, John Limley. This was a 475 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: picture perfect place. This is in Jupiter, Florida, where Tiger 476 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: Woods and all those millionaires lived. It was a beautiful 477 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: home in a beautiful subdivision where there's no crime at all. 478 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: Take a listen to this. The trauma that is inexpensible. 479 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: One of my rerests just for not to go to trial. 480 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: He said, we'll never really hear before that. We endured 481 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: that night. It's still and that was still in with today. 482 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: But well that's fine. Glass battery everywhere, bodies fall into 483 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: the ground and the screams for him to please stop. 484 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: People running for their lives. And now listen to baby 485 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: Michael's dad and so much pain on the courthouse steps. 486 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: I feel like I filled my daughter again. You know, 487 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: I couldn't save her that night, and now today I 488 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: couldn't kill the defendant. The one thing that really upsets 489 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: me in this case is we have a good case. 490 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: We just don't have a good state attorney we have. 491 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: You know, if my pregnant wife as the strength to 492 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: prosecute a death penalty case, why doesn't he? As we 493 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: examine what it is about the Christmas holiday, where so 494 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: much of the world is celebrating what is good in 495 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: the world, What is joyful, what is peaceful, what is loving? 496 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: How does that get contorted in some people's minds and 497 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: end up in horrific acts. I want to thank our 498 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: partners who are making our program here on serious sex 499 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: and two possible. You know, everybody and their mother are 500 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: talking about quote super foods. What is a super food? 501 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: Every time I I look online, there's a new super food. 502 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: It's keen law. It's a blueberry. It's a sudden choke. 503 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: I don't even they don't know what's next. But I 504 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: can tell you this. Super foods are nutritionally It's foods 505 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: that are extremely beneficial, especially beneficial to your health. Now 506 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: I do know this. Beats. 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You don't have to worry about 546 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: replacing a temporary crown you've got in December with a 547 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: permanent one in January US. You're in the new year 548 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: with a smile. Learn about Sarah. Book your appointment by 549 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: visiting one eight hundred dentist dot com slash Sarah one 550 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: eight hundred dentist dot com slash C E R E C. 551 00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: What is it about the holidays, specifically Christmas holidays, um 552 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: the whole season starting at Thanksgiving that brings out seemingly 553 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: the very worst in human nature? With me Joseph S. 554 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 1: Gott Morgan forensics expert, John Limley, Crime stories investigative reporter 555 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: and Dr Carol Lieberman psychiatrist, radio TV talk show host, 556 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: personality and best selling author Dr Carroll What is it 557 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: I mean at this time is that looking around at 558 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: other people that are seemingly so happy and loving the holiday, 559 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 1: and then you feel like you're not so happy? Does 560 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: that bring out that much angst and anger and hatred. Yes, 561 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: that's a very big part of it. Uh. You know, 562 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: there are some patterns that are fit through all of 563 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: these different cases that we're talking about. One is the 564 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,359 Speaker 1: idea of money or gifts, and you know, the sense 565 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: of deprivation that these people feel at this particular holiday 566 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: and have felt in previous holidays, and the resentment builds up. 567 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: Then also family feeling like they are abandoned either physically 568 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 1: or emotionally by their family, you know, the wife leave, um, 569 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: or the parents leave or planning on leaving. Um. And 570 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: jealousy amongst the family, jealous of children, jealous of of 571 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: siblings and so on. And the holidays and this you know, 572 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 1: the side with the fact that we don't all look 573 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: like Hallmark cards. You know, nobody's family, nobody's family really 574 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,479 Speaker 1: looks like the picture of a family on a Hallmark card. 575 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 1: And for people who have deep resentments and something's recent 576 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,240 Speaker 1: to trigger it, like a divorce or parents stopping paying 577 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: their their more money, giving them money and so on. Um, 578 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: these are the things that then trigger it and bring 579 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 1: out the violence. Well. You know what's interesting also, and 580 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 1: Joe's cart you have a family, um, most all of us. 581 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: Do you know the other day, what was I first 582 00:38:55,120 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 1: thing at David about I can't even remember. And Lucy 583 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,479 Speaker 1: looked up at me and she actually had tears around. 584 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: She said, Mommy, please don't leave, don't leave us, don't 585 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:14,319 Speaker 1: get a divorce. And I looked her. I said, Lucy, sweetheart, 586 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: nobody is leaving anywhere. Number one, I'm in my pajamas. Uh. 587 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,399 Speaker 1: And number two, of course I'm not leaving. I would 588 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: never ever have I ever left you. And of course 589 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: I'm not leaving your dad. Although he's totally socially awkward, 590 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 1: I do fuss at him, but honey, I would never 591 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: ever leave your dad. I love your dad. And I 592 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 1: guess somebody at school has the parents that are divorced 593 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: and she hears about that. And my point is, sometimes 594 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 1: our fears get magnified, not just her, but our fears 595 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: become magnified, our you know, feelings are magnified sometimes. And 596 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 1: I'm wondering what it is about everyone being together. It 597 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,320 Speaker 1: just seems to boil over one cross word, you know, 598 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 1: oversetting the table, and suddenly somebody pulls out an A 599 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 1: K forty seven. I I don't understand it, but I'm 600 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: thinking about right now. A guy, a twenty eight year 601 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,800 Speaker 1: old guy who has everything in the world to be 602 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:27,360 Speaker 1: thankful for. Its name is Joel Michael Guy Jr. And 603 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: his parents Joel Uncle, Guy Senior and mom Lisa um 604 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: have been supporting him his whole life. He's been in school, 605 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: I think now for ten years. I'm talking about college. College. Okay, 606 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: he's a Now, I can't say it right now, Mackie. 607 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,879 Speaker 1: I know you're listening. You're in school, in college going 608 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,720 Speaker 1: on ten years, okay. But mother and daddy were not fitting, 609 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: you know, footing the entire bill because my brother would 610 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: work jop out college, then go back, and then go 611 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 1: back and forth. Finally, my mom, you know, tied him 612 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: down and said, listen, you're gonna have what your father 613 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: and I never had. Come hell or high water. Now 614 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,360 Speaker 1: you drop this job that means nothing, and you finish. 615 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: And he did. This guy on the other hand, Oh 616 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 1: and by the way, it went on to be the 617 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 1: one who is so successful and live on the golf course. 618 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 1: By the way, my brother who would actually hide his 619 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: grades from school. My sister would make all a's and 620 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: would be waiting on her grades to come in the mail. 621 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,320 Speaker 1: He would make all f's and hide his and my 622 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 1: sister's grades so my parents would not know the greatest 623 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: sat up. And you know my sister, the brilliant one 624 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,320 Speaker 1: who was the college professor, you know, raising her children 625 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: at my brother or who was the master getting fs 626 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 1: as the one living on the golf course. Can somebody 627 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: explain the justice in this thing? But back to this guy, 628 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 1: he was not working, living off his parents. He's been 629 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: in college now ten years. I'm proud to say my 630 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 1: brother did it in seven. And he comes home and 631 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 1: asks for more money. The parents are trying to retire 632 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,919 Speaker 1: and they have to break it to him over holiday meal. Son, 633 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: you're gonna have to make it on. You're gonna have 634 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 1: to get a job. Son. Finally, you've been in school 635 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,719 Speaker 1: ten years to get a four year degree. It's over. 636 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:41,719 Speaker 1: We're selling the house, we're retiring, we're not gonna work anymore. 637 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 1: And what does he do? John Limley, I just hate 638 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,040 Speaker 1: the ending of this story. What happens John? The family 639 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: is gathering for a holiday feast at this beautiful, tiny, 640 00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,400 Speaker 1: little two story home that's on a quarter lot in 641 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: the Golden Lane neighborhood of Uxville, Tennessee. Now it was 642 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,759 Speaker 1: already to be the family's last holiday together in that 643 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,280 Speaker 1: particular house. Did I'm backing up? Did you say tiny? 644 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: Because I'm looking at it and it's a mansion. I'm 645 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: looking right at it. Did I hear you say tiny? Okay? 646 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 1: Maybe I should No, no, no, no, no, just go ahead. 647 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 1: I mean this place is it looks like maybe the 648 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:28,279 Speaker 1: Italian kind of like stucco Jackie saction is exactly where it's. 649 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it's gorgeous. Okay, not that that means the 650 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: crime can't happen, but what it does mean is it's 651 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: probably a very low crime area. Okay, Sorry, I just 652 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: had to make sure you knew this was not a 653 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,840 Speaker 1: tiny home because I've been watching too much h G 654 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,160 Speaker 1: t V and they do all the specials on the 655 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 1: tiny homes people put on the car and drive around 656 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 1: the country with them. Is it's not one of them? 657 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 1: All right? Go ahead? Now, this was already to be 658 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: the family's last holiday together in that house, because in 659 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,839 Speaker 1: two weeks Joel Dive Sr. And his wife Lisa would 660 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 1: going to move into his late mother's mountain house about 661 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: ninety miles away. Family members were already talking about getting 662 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:13,719 Speaker 1: together there for a Christmas reunion. The guys said their 663 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: goodviceed first to their three daughters, who all live in Tennessee, 664 00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 1: and plan to send off their son, Joel Michael Guy Jr. 665 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 1: As we mentioned, he'd been living in Baton Rouge for 666 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,399 Speaker 1: nearly a decade and his parents were financially supporting him. 667 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 1: Authorities say they had planned to tell him that they 668 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:37,480 Speaker 1: were indeed cutting him off. It's still unclear exactly what 669 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,320 Speaker 1: happened next, whether the guys ever had a chance to 670 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 1: even deliver their message. What authorities do know is that 671 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,879 Speaker 1: the twenty eight year old state in Tennessee another three 672 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:52,080 Speaker 1: days longer than he had planned, and by that Sunday afternoon, 673 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,799 Speaker 1: his parents home had been turned into what police say 674 00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:00,920 Speaker 1: was a horrific and very gruesome crime scene. During a 675 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:06,799 Speaker 1: welfare check that following Monday, after Lisa, guys employer, told 676 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,799 Speaker 1: police that she did not show up for work, authorities 677 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 1: entered the home and discovered a barking dog that was 678 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,720 Speaker 1: locked in an upstairs room and the remains of Joel Sr. 679 00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 1: And Lisa scattered throughout the house, their dismembered body parts 680 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:29,239 Speaker 1: resting in a homemade acidic solution concocted uh He was 681 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,399 Speaker 1: trying to erase all evidence that the crimes even took 682 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: place there. Well, wait a minute, Joe Scott Morgan Joseph 683 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:41,320 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, forensics expert, Professor Forensics at Jacksonville State University. 684 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: What about this acidic solution? Drums of it in this 685 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,880 Speaker 1: beautiful home. It's a Jackie's waving a note at me 686 00:45:55,120 --> 00:46:00,360 Speaker 1: that it's a really expensive area in Knoxville. But you 687 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: go in the front door, the crystal doors are surrounded 688 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 1: by glass of this mansion and you find drums of 689 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:17,000 Speaker 1: acidic solution. Joe Scott. Yeah, words like torture, stab, wounds, 690 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 1: and dismemberment are also used. Uh in this tail and 691 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:28,200 Speaker 1: uh he he was with his parents for an extended 692 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,920 Speaker 1: period of time, which is why the police believe that 693 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,400 Speaker 1: prior to them dying. Um, he very well may have 694 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:39,279 Speaker 1: tortured them. A lot of anger involved with this. And 695 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:45,400 Speaker 1: you know, after after this feat of killing, these intimates 696 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 1: these people, and that's the way we commonly refer to 697 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,920 Speaker 1: them if you're in an intimate relationship, not referring to 698 00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,640 Speaker 1: a sexual relationship, but just you know, a familial relationship, 699 00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:00,760 Speaker 1: very close pearing and child after you go through killing 700 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,719 Speaker 1: them up close and personal with an edged weapon. Then 701 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,480 Speaker 1: before you even get to the acid, you have to 702 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 1: dismember the bodies. And this is no easy feat, particularly 703 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,360 Speaker 1: if you've never done it before. I've worked in the 704 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,120 Speaker 1: morgue for many, many years, and I'll just leave it 705 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:21,360 Speaker 1: at that. I know what it takes. And for someone 706 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:26,400 Speaker 1: in this fancy home, uh, that has limited knowledge and 707 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 1: I would think limited specialty tools in order to facilitate this, Uh, 708 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 1: it would be very difficult. Also if you don't use 709 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:38,320 Speaker 1: the right combination of you know, what they're referring to 710 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,640 Speaker 1: is not necessarily a pure asset solution, but something that 711 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,880 Speaker 1: was kind of concocted. Always that makes me raised an eyebrow. 712 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:51,000 Speaker 1: It's not gonna work very effectively. And from what I understand, Uh, 713 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:56,160 Speaker 1: he essentially left the scene and returned back uh to 714 00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:01,040 Speaker 1: Button Rouge and uh you know where later, as John 715 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,879 Speaker 1: had pointed out, you know, the police entered this house 716 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,960 Speaker 1: of horrors, and I can't I can't imagine what it 717 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,719 Speaker 1: would be like to be a young uniformed officer, which 718 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,719 Speaker 1: more than likely it was that entered this home just 719 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 1: to conduct a welfare check. And this is something that's 720 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,640 Speaker 1: done on a regular basis and you walk in. This 721 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,399 Speaker 1: is the last thing you're expecting to see too. Dr 722 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 1: Carroll Lieberman, psychiatrist, radio TV talk show host, best selling author. 723 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:31,400 Speaker 1: Dr Carroll please give us some guidance. Well, this story 724 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:37,440 Speaker 1: has again some of these same elements of these holiday massacres, 725 00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 1: um money. You know, he was going to be cut off. 726 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,000 Speaker 1: It's so interesting because there are even some reports that 727 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:47,080 Speaker 1: maybe he wasn't even enrolled in college at least not 728 00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,160 Speaker 1: for the whole ten years. Uh. He supposedly wanted to 729 00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,239 Speaker 1: be a plastic surgeon, which I guess could explain. I 730 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:57,600 Speaker 1: could explain the dismemberment right he was practicing. And then um, 731 00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,840 Speaker 1: the idea that his parents were going to be selling 732 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,800 Speaker 1: at home, perhaps his childhood home or at least perhaps 733 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: to something that represented status and and moving away abandonment, 734 00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:14,239 Speaker 1: So money, deprivation, abandonment. Um. You know, all the ingredients 735 00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:18,520 Speaker 1: were there for him to finally express his rage. As 736 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:24,680 Speaker 1: we head into the beautiful Christmas season, I want to 737 00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,360 Speaker 1: look around and see what is good in the world, 738 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:36,160 Speaker 1: what is joyful? What is peaceful? As we welcome the 739 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:42,920 Speaker 1: Prince of Peace yet again Nancy Greg's grind story signing 740 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:44,200 Speaker 1: him good