Speaker 1: Push it. I'm Khalil Gibran Muhammad. I'm Ben Austin. We
Speaker 1: are two best friends, one black, one white. I'm a
Speaker 1: historian and I'm a journalist. And this is some of
Speaker 1: my best friends are some of my best friends are Okay,
Speaker 1: you get it. So in this show, we wrestle with
Speaker 1: the challenges and the absurdities of a deeply divided and
Speaker 1: unequal country. And you know, one of the most visible
Speaker 1: ways this inequality has manifested in society is on the
Speaker 1: big screen. That's right, at the movies. And it's Academy
Speaker 1: Awards season. That's right, that's right, totally, totally, and you know,
Speaker 1: since its Oscar season, we wanted to bring out our
Speaker 1: best friend and family Jacqueline Stewart. She's back on the show.
Speaker 1: She's the director and President of the Academy Museum of
Speaker 1: Motion Pictures, and we're going to check in with her
Speaker 1: about how she understands the movie industry in her new
Speaker 1: role and how race, identity and politics work in the
Speaker 1: film industry. Let's do it, hey, Khalil. It's Oscar season,
Speaker 1: the Academy Awards, the movie industry's biggest night. It's always
Speaker 1: fraught with identity and politics and race. But it makes
Speaker 1: me think about why movies matter and then why they
Speaker 1: matter to me, you know, what movies are important? And
Speaker 1: I was thinking about a movie that has been really
Speaker 1: formative in my life, and and I've got one that's
Speaker 1: kind of an oddball, is it? I hope it's not
Speaker 1: at X rated. No, no, not at all, not at all.
Speaker 1: Only this podcast is only gum. So one day, my
Speaker 1: brother Jake and I we take the bus from South
Speaker 1: Shore to hyde Park and we go to the Hyde
Speaker 1: Park Theater and we pay our way to get into
Speaker 1: a double feature and the first movie is Blazing Saddles
Speaker 1: and Blazing Saddles. It is this mel Brooks comedy I think.
Speaker 1: I think it's from the early nineteen seventies, so this
Speaker 1: is the early probably the early nineteen eighties. That we
Speaker 1: go see it, and it's a parody of a Western
Speaker 1: it's said It's said in the West. And you know,
Speaker 1: up to that point in our lives, I'll say my
Speaker 1: movie going experience, up to that point in my life
Speaker 1: was pretty much tagging along with my parents, but we
Speaker 1: would go see the movies that they wanted to see.
Speaker 1: So that was my experience so far. So Jake and
Speaker 1: I sit down in this movie blazing saddles, and you know,
Speaker 1: it is uproarious. There the humor, it's like parody. It's
Speaker 1: like breaking the fourth wall. It is like a barrage
Speaker 1: of jokes. They're fart jokes. There are like sight DAGs,
Speaker 1: there are like you know, it is just like building
Speaker 1: and building and building. And at one point like like
Speaker 1: we are just our mouths are open, and we turned
Speaker 1: to one. I don't even know which one of us
Speaker 1: said it. I think we almost both said it at
Speaker 1: the exact time, and we said, they make movies for us. Yes, well,
Speaker 1: all right, so my turn. So I've been thinking about
Speaker 1: this too, And of course this film, I think for
Speaker 1: a lot of our listeners was revolutionary, and that is
Speaker 1: Spike Lee's do the Right Thing Comes out in nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty nine. And for me, the issues in this film
Speaker 1: could not have been more relevant, more personal, more connected.
Speaker 1: I at the time, across most of the nineteen eighties
Speaker 1: was living in New York City during the summers with
Speaker 1: my father. He lived for a time in Fort Green, Brooklyn,
Speaker 1: where Spike Lee lived and was a visible presence on
Speaker 1: the streets. That was like the mid nineteen eighties. So
Speaker 1: when the film comes out in nineteen eighty nine, like,
Speaker 1: I know the world that he's created in this film.
Speaker 1: I have experienced it. And even though we were native Chicagoans,
Speaker 1: I had this incredible childhood where I got to spend
Speaker 1: all these summers in New York. And of course the
Speaker 1: film turns on the intense race relations of nineteen eighties
Speaker 1: New York. It culminates in a police killing and all
Speaker 1: the racism that is seething beneath the surface with white
Speaker 1: Ethnics and Italians in particular, and black folks and Puerto Ricans.
Speaker 1: All of it's there. Also, like that movie crazy formative
Speaker 1: for me. I went to go see it with Danielle
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty nine, my wife. We were just starting
Speaker 1: to date at that point. But after the film, like
Speaker 1: this film with like you're just trying to process it.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful, and we go to River Oaks out in
Speaker 1: the in the southern suburbs to see it, which is
Speaker 1: what you did back in the eighties. We go to
Speaker 1: Bennigan's after to get a meal and I go to
Speaker 1: the bathroom and I come back from there's a woman
Speaker 1: talking to Danielle, a black woman, and I get back
Speaker 1: to the table and the woman walks away and the
Speaker 1: woman had Danielle turns to me and says, that woman
Speaker 1: just said to me, I saw you in the theater
Speaker 1: after seeing that movie. How could you be here with
Speaker 1: him meeting with a white guy? And I like sat down.
Speaker 1: I was like, was that the message of the movie.
Speaker 1: I was like, I wasn't pissed. I was like actually
Speaker 1: trying to still process the film, like that movie was
Speaker 1: loaded in so many ways, Like was that really the message?
Speaker 1: I don't think so. Yeah, yeah, man, you were diluting
Speaker 1: our racial stock. The thing is, though, it's like many
Speaker 1: years later, I got to meet Spike Lee at Indiana University.
Speaker 1: I was there as faculty member, and he came to
Speaker 1: talk about how he'd been snubbed by the Oscars so
Speaker 1: many times in his career, and he talked about do
Speaker 1: the right thing. He talked about Malcolm Malcolm X, it's
Speaker 1: like a perfect movie Malcolm X. Yeah, that's right. This
Speaker 1: guy was pissed, and I don't think I really remembered
Speaker 1: at the time that the year that he didn't get
Speaker 1: an Oscar for Best Picture or Best Director, which was
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety Oscars, the film did get two nominations for
Speaker 1: a Rich sporting Actor Danny I Yellow and Original Screenplay.
Speaker 1: He didn't win any of them, so the film won nothing.
Speaker 1: Guess what won that year? Guess what swept the Oscars?
Speaker 1: Nineteen nineteen ninety not Scent of a Woman that's like
Speaker 1: ninety two, what is it? It's driving Miss Daisy driving
Speaker 1: Miss Daisy Man. It's like the punchline dre a joke.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's so unbelievable that a film that
Speaker 1: sort of recapitulates the you know, the old tropes of
Speaker 1: the white savior, the black helpmate, you know, the traditional
Speaker 1: subservience and stereotypes of black people. Um. Ironically enough, the
Speaker 1: woman's Jewish and the main character, Morgan Friedman, who is
Speaker 1: the chauffeur in this film, is black. So there we
Speaker 1: go black and Jewish relations. But yeah, the movie swept
Speaker 1: the Oscars. So that's that is both for me, a
Speaker 1: story about like my coming of age in the movies
Speaker 1: do the right thing, of course, Rosie Perez is no joke,
Speaker 1: and also thinking about like this conversation today about the
Speaker 1: Oscars being still so white, I mean, here we are,
Speaker 1: and the way that movies matter. That both sort of
Speaker 1: how they represent our world and how they fail to
Speaker 1: represent and how we're sort of embroiled in that dialogue
Speaker 1: with films. We want to see the world through them,
Speaker 1: and we also make sense of the world. So we
Speaker 1: are going to dive into the movies today and we
Speaker 1: are doing it with the perfect person. All Right, we
Speaker 1: have Jacqueline Najuma Stewart back on the show. She was
Speaker 1: here on the in season one. She is back on
Speaker 1: the show. She is the perfect person to talk about movies.
Speaker 1: She is the director and president of the Academy Museum
Speaker 1: of Motion Pictures, the movie museum in Los Angeles. Her
Speaker 1: job is to make movies and the history of movies,
Speaker 1: the culture of movies, make them into this giant museum,
Speaker 1: and make sense of them, make it important to the public. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she actually is helping to build the museum from scratch,
Speaker 1: and in that responsibility, they have to design a program
Speaker 1: which includes exhibition, which includes events, which includes film screenings.
Speaker 1: And as the senior executive of this organization, she's got
Speaker 1: a huge set of responsibilities the caretaker of the official
Speaker 1: history of the Academy as well as how the Academy
Speaker 1: teaches future generations about the meaning of movies. It's an
Speaker 1: incredible job. And listen, and Jackie went to prim with
Speaker 1: my brother high school prom. Yes, they got married, have
Speaker 1: two children. Jackie has known me and you yeah, pretty
Speaker 1: much since we've been kids, you know, and she is
Speaker 1: my sister. I love her. Yeah. Just for the record, though,
Speaker 1: this conversation happened before we knew this year's Oscars winners.
Speaker 1: So we're excited about talking about the museum and learning
Speaker 1: a lot more about the role of the Oscars itself
Speaker 1: in shaping American culture. Yeah, yeah, so obvious. See, you know,
Speaker 1: this conversation about Oscar so white and Oscar's still being
Speaker 1: so white and wrestling with sort of race and culture
Speaker 1: and American identity as part of films. That's what we're
Speaker 1: gonna unpack with her. That's right, let's do it. Let's
Speaker 1: go roll the tape, turn off the lights, hand me
Speaker 1: the popcorn. Let's go. So Jackie, we get to say
Speaker 1: something to you that we've not said to any guest yet,
Speaker 1: which is welcome back. Yes, some of my best friends
Speaker 1: are welcome. That isn't hot. Yes, thank you for having
Speaker 1: me back. Yes, for those who didn't have the pleasure
Speaker 1: of hearing Jackie last season, doctor Jacqueline Stewart was our
Speaker 1: guest to help us unpack the meaning of interracial buddy films,
Speaker 1: the long genre, the nuances, the lack of women in
Speaker 1: these films. It was our first episode when some of
Speaker 1: our best friends launched that conversation that we subsequently have
Speaker 1: with Jackie. So thank you so much for coming back on. Man,
Speaker 1: it's my pleasure, man, the first episode. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: that's incredible. We're family here in a way that that
Speaker 1: people don't necessarily don't. Your aunt and my mom grew
Speaker 1: up together. I mean, like bff's for real, when I
Speaker 1: was like a newborn. Yeah, and you you know, we
Speaker 1: we've all been connected since uh, you know, since Khalil
Speaker 1: and I I'd say probably ninth grade. You've known us,
Speaker 1: your were we go way back. It's pretty amazing when
Speaker 1: you actually count up the years. You know, we're getting old,
Speaker 1: we're getting older and wiser. I feel like we have
Speaker 1: really champion each other and all the work that we do.
Speaker 1: I definitely feel like my family is the baseline for
Speaker 1: everything that I've been able to accomplish, and you too
Speaker 1: are a big part of that. I love that. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: needless to say, we're proud of you, and uh, you
Speaker 1: know been and I talked a lot about Chicago being
Speaker 1: home base, right, and of course you share that. But
Speaker 1: I went east, Jackie, and you went west. So you're
Speaker 1: now in in the movie making capital of the world.
Speaker 1: You are in Los Angeles, California, and we were excited
Speaker 1: last year about your big promotion. You were then the
Speaker 1: chief artistic and Programming Officer at the Academy Museum of
Speaker 1: Motion Pictures and drumroll please, la da da da. Now
Speaker 1: you are the president of the Academy Museum of Motion Pictures.
Speaker 1: That is awesome, It's amazing. It's amazing to me q
Speaker 1: Q moving on, yes, yes, and and and of course
Speaker 1: along the way, just as a testament to your brilliance,
Speaker 1: you just you know, snatched a little your own little
Speaker 1: Oscars for Academia, a MacArthur Genius Award in the meantime.
Speaker 1: So we are really proud of you. So we wanted
Speaker 1: to get this conversation started because it is Oscar season.
Speaker 1: It is that time of year when the biggest night
Speaker 1: in Hollywood occurs, and we wanted to learn a little
Speaker 1: bit more about what exactly does the president of the
Speaker 1: Academy Museum of Motion Pictures do great question. So the
Speaker 1: Academy Museum opened in September of twenty twenty one. So
Speaker 1: we're still kind of like a toddler almost almost in
Speaker 1: our infancy. And just to give some background, so the
Speaker 1: Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences was founded in
Speaker 1: the late nineteen twenties, and even back then the founders
Speaker 1: were like, part of what we should have in terms
Speaker 1: of amplifying the arts of moviemaking is we should have
Speaker 1: a museum. So it's been an idea that the Academy
Speaker 1: has had for almost a hundred years, and then over
Speaker 1: the generations there were various attempts to try to bring
Speaker 1: it to reality. But really this project in the form
Speaker 1: that it takes now, this campus that we have on
Speaker 1: Fairfax and willshare in Los Angeles, is about ten years
Speaker 1: in the making. And Jackie, I visited the museum. You
Speaker 1: gave me a partial tour, and then I walked around
Speaker 1: with my son Jonah, and it's it succeeds in so
Speaker 1: many different ways. I mean, I think about movies being
Speaker 1: part of our culture and you know, and that were
Speaker 1: we were fans of them, and so there's like this
Speaker 1: kind of museum of just fandom. And then there's also
Speaker 1: this museums are part of our history, you know, the
Speaker 1: happiness certain moments, and they're also conveying history, and you're
Speaker 1: telling both the history of museum of movies and the
Speaker 1: history that they're encased in. I was so moved by
Speaker 1: just seeing like framed screens and inside of them different
Speaker 1: movies going on, different and in the way I would
Speaker 1: be in an art museum, and to see that, to
Speaker 1: see this beauty, um it's powerful in all those different ways.
Speaker 1: It felt like there was something for everybody. I'm saying that,
Speaker 1: like everyone should go because it's you're definitely going to
Speaker 1: connect with us. That means a lot. I mean that's
Speaker 1: our goal. That's really the goal that we have. You know,
Speaker 1: there are ways that our memories are activated by the
Speaker 1: movies that we love, our moviegoing experiences. I mean, I've
Speaker 1: heard you and Jake, your brother talk lots of times
Speaker 1: about memorable moviegoing experiences with the theater. Moments were like
Speaker 1: in films that maybe you shouldn't have seen at a
Speaker 1: younger age, which you saw them anyway, Like they're just
Speaker 1: there's an emotional connection that people have to movie going,
Speaker 1: So we want to harness that and honor that and
Speaker 1: always use that as an opportunity to get people to
Speaker 1: ask deeper questions and broader questions. So that gives me
Speaker 1: I have a deeper question to ask you, and it's
Speaker 1: actually it's actually something I don't think I've ever asked
Speaker 1: you or I don't know, and that you're so smart.
Speaker 1: You're like one of the smartest people I know. And
Speaker 1: you could have studied black culture and identity in so
Speaker 1: many different ways, and you chose to do it through
Speaker 1: the movies academically as a curator in all sorts of ways.
Speaker 1: Why why movies? Like what do you love about movies?
Speaker 1: Was there a moment for you where you like you
Speaker 1: fell in love with movies and this is it? Well,
Speaker 1: there's like two reasons, I guess one. Yes, absolutely, there's
Speaker 1: a kind of childhood connection. And the story I tell
Speaker 1: is that I have three aunts. My mother and sisters
Speaker 1: were twenty years older than she is, so they were
Speaker 1: born in the nineteen twenties, and I was very close
Speaker 1: to my aunt Constance, Zenobia Lee, my aunt Connie, my auntie,
Speaker 1: and she was a night owl. I love that term.
Speaker 1: So we were night owls. So my sister and my grandmother,
Speaker 1: they go to bed after Johnny Carson went off, but
Speaker 1: we would stay up and we would watch these movies
Speaker 1: that she remembered going to see in the movie theaters,
Speaker 1: movies from the thirties and forties, and she knew everything
Speaker 1: about these old movie stars. And of course these films
Speaker 1: had commercial breaks, so we go downstairs and get a
Speaker 1: snack and talk about them. So it was really like
Speaker 1: this super intimate experience of talking with someone who just
Speaker 1: loved and supported me so much, and I adored her,
Speaker 1: and we would just be up all night watching these movies.
Speaker 1: So when I would get to college and people didn't
Speaker 1: want to watch black and white movies because they're in
Speaker 1: black and white, what is the issue there? Um? And uh,
Speaker 1: she just made me really interested in I guess that's
Speaker 1: another thing too. As a black woman, questions come up
Speaker 1: all the time about how can you watch movies that
Speaker 1: have these racist things in them? Obviously these films I mean,
Speaker 1: like like the depictions of black women as mammy figures.
Speaker 1: That's right, black and shoes shine if they're in the
Speaker 1: movie at all, you know, yes, Um, where do you
Speaker 1: find those points of pleasure in films? That are not
Speaker 1: made for you, and in some cases are made against you. Um.
Speaker 1: So I think at a very early age I had
Speaker 1: a strong understanding, firsthand experience that people who have been
Speaker 1: marginalized still find these points of pleasure, and sometimes that
Speaker 1: pleasure is through critique, because when you would get some
Speaker 1: you know, silly Maid or whatever. Butterfly McQueen, there's this
Speaker 1: moment in Milder Piers Butterfly McQueen picks up the phone
Speaker 1: and she can't figure out how to us. It's like
Speaker 1: hello the obviously for white people. That's like a dumb
Speaker 1: Negro made for us. He's playing on the idea that
Speaker 1: this woman wouldn't know how to use the phone. So
Speaker 1: it was really instructive to me to be able to
Speaker 1: appreciate good acting, amazing cinematography, compelling stories, and to think
Speaker 1: about through her, like how could she still love these
Speaker 1: movies even when they have these moments that are obvious
Speaker 1: to us really problematic, So that I didn't realize that
Speaker 1: was working in my subconscious for such a long time.
Speaker 1: And when I went to college, I was an English
Speaker 1: major and Spike Lee kind of burst onto the scene
Speaker 1: and everybody's talking about his films and I'm looking at
Speaker 1: She's Got to Have It, I'm looking at School Days,
Speaker 1: and I'm just amazed by these films. They're just stylistically
Speaker 1: so interesting, and he's a voice that's so unique. But
Speaker 1: the representations of women in his films, I was like,
Speaker 1: what is going on here? And there was this kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, contradiction that so many women of color have
Speaker 1: to negotiate. How do you support one thing that is
Speaker 1: so meaningful, potentially even progressive on a racial level, but
Speaker 1: then raises so many problems questions when it comes to
Speaker 1: gender and sexuality. And I end up writing my BA
Speaker 1: thesis on Spike Lee's films, and I, you know, in
Speaker 1: so many ways, I'm still doing that, Like you're still
Speaker 1: doing that well. I firmly believe that we have to
Speaker 1: see these films. I don't believe in censoring films that
Speaker 1: have these problematic elements. I think we have to look
Speaker 1: at them and talk through them. And that's what I've
Speaker 1: been kind of training myself to do and hopefully educating
Speaker 1: others on how to do as well. I love that, Jackie.
Speaker 1: We are going to take a short break and we'll
Speaker 1: be right back. All right, Welcome back to some of
Speaker 1: my best friends are. We are going to talk about
Speaker 1: the Oscars now, and this is the biggest night in Hollywood.
Speaker 1: We want to talk a bit about how the Oscars
Speaker 1: each year sort of shine a light on where the
Speaker 1: country is and it's long and tortured journey towards racial
Speaker 1: progress to racial justice, and of course of the past
Speaker 1: several years, there's been a lot of ferment around representation
Speaker 1: at the Oscars. So I just want to hear your
Speaker 1: thoughts about where the Oscars are at this moment, what
Speaker 1: it's like to be a custodian of the history of
Speaker 1: the Oscars and in this new role. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: we have an Academy Awards History gallery at the museum
Speaker 1: and it's actually something that folks can look at online
Speaker 1: as well, kind of scroll through and see these landmark
Speaker 1: wins and nominations and how the categories have changed over time.
Speaker 1: And from what I have been seeing, it's like because
Speaker 1: of the Oscar So White Movement protests that happened, there
Speaker 1: was a real effort on the part of Academy members
Speaker 1: Academy leadership to craft a response, and so the development
Speaker 1: of criteria for really pushing studios to diversify their crews
Speaker 1: and their casts, a lot of what happens behind the
Speaker 1: scene exactly. Yeah, yeah, I mean you know this well,
Speaker 1: but sometimes it bears repeating that you can't resolve centuries
Speaker 1: old problems in two or three years. You have to
Speaker 1: create with a d d I initiative that you stand
Speaker 1: up and just figures, let's see the results, that's right,
Speaker 1: and just you know, put somebody in charge who seems
Speaker 1: to visibly reflect diversity, and that solves a problem. What
Speaker 1: you have to do is you have to build sustain
Speaker 1: sustainable initiatives that are looking ten, twenty thirty years ahead.
Speaker 1: And so the Academy Goal Program, I think is in
Speaker 1: many ways planting those seeds by placing young people in
Speaker 1: positions where they can grow and where the Academy is
Speaker 1: calling the industry to be accountable for that growth. So
Speaker 1: that to me is really a strong indication of things
Speaker 1: that are happening now that we may not see like
Speaker 1: immediate results from. But that's not what we want anyway.
Speaker 1: I would say, it's about a much longer term set
Speaker 1: of solutions that we need to build. So you know,
Speaker 1: when we look across for example, the history of black
Speaker 1: filmmaking and kind of you see these ebbs and flows
Speaker 1: right in the nineteen seventies and lots happening. The eighties
Speaker 1: kind of a dip, and then the nineties a lot
Speaker 1: of black independent filmmaking and a dip and so on.
Speaker 1: But over the past few years, if you think about
Speaker 1: just the breadth and the ambition, and I mean that
Speaker 1: in terms of like um production values and costs, the
Speaker 1: fact that Ryan Coogler has the career that he has
Speaker 1: right now and right this is the director behind the
Speaker 1: Black Panther Marvel series that's right, Yes, and Creed and
Speaker 1: Creed and Creed Yes, which is amazing, reboot the Rocky series. Yes,
Speaker 1: Sasha Penn one of the writers. Yeah, looking at the
Speaker 1: things that Aba DuVernay is doing m and she is
Speaker 1: a governor of the of the Academy. The point I'm
Speaker 1: trying to make is just that I think that the
Speaker 1: key right now is to ensure that the people who
Speaker 1: are in place and getting into higher and higher places
Speaker 1: in the industry, their voices are really being heard in
Speaker 1: a way that I don't think was happening before. And
Speaker 1: I think we're just going to see the fruits of
Speaker 1: that in the next few years. Jack, I want to
Speaker 1: I want to pick up something that you said at
Speaker 1: the start of that of that you actually have an
Speaker 1: exhibit about the Academy Awards, and I'm interested in that.
Speaker 1: I've been to that room of sort of seeing this,
Speaker 1: and I'm curious of you thinking about your job of
Speaker 1: preserving that history of the Academy and the actual award
Speaker 1: show and turning that spectacle of that event into a
Speaker 1: museum exhibit. Yes, like and like, what is it? What
Speaker 1: is it You're you're even trying to do sort of
Speaker 1: in this conversation around diversity and representation and Oscar still
Speaker 1: so white and like, you know, to sort of weave
Speaker 1: that into this this h this is It's a great question.
Speaker 1: And Doris, who leads a curatorial team that has really
Speaker 1: worked on the structure of that exhibition, she drew on
Speaker 1: the things that are really the major touch points. So
Speaker 1: when you think about the Academy Awards, you think about
Speaker 1: the speeches. In fact, I think if we ever fantasize
Speaker 1: about giving a speech, it's like the Academy Awards moment
Speaker 1: is what we all kind of like. I'd like, you
Speaker 1: know that that's the ultimate stage for giving a speech
Speaker 1: of thanking the people you love, of getting like this
Speaker 1: major global recognition. So the gallery has a sort of
Speaker 1: cycling array of speeches, and we see the video of
Speaker 1: the speeches from Hattie McDaniel in nineteen forty to Ruth
Speaker 1: Carter winning for costume design for Black Panther, and you know,
Speaker 1: so we keep that up to date. Two because and
Speaker 1: I have heard this literally from people who have won,
Speaker 1: like Hilder Gonadottier, who was the first. She won for
Speaker 1: composing for Joker, and she said that she heard from
Speaker 1: young women that seeing her speech inspired them to think
Speaker 1: that they could do work for film, like from major
Speaker 1: motion things. So it's actually really a big deal in
Speaker 1: terms of representation of seeing somebody up there on the
Speaker 1: Oscars night. It's not it's alive in terms of that
Speaker 1: sort of representation. Yeah, it's that validation. Yeah. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: just to pick up this point I was thinking as
Speaker 1: you were describing it, it's also a can to a
Speaker 1: political speech, not just the politics that are on view,
Speaker 1: in terms of how culture often is the sort of
Speaker 1: lifeblood of our politics, yes, but also in the way
Speaker 1: that so many of these speeches are in a formal
Speaker 1: sense political. That's right, that the occasion for acknowledging whatever
Speaker 1: this film subject matter is, or the individual who's being
Speaker 1: honored for it, if it is a trailblazing role or
Speaker 1: trailblazing individual, often tells us something about the country or
Speaker 1: where the country is in its history at that moment.
Speaker 1: Absolutely true. Yes, I'm thinking about one of pretty recent
Speaker 1: speech by me and Neil, who was part of the
Speaker 1: hair and makeup team that won for Male Rainey's Black
Speaker 1: Bottom and starry Viola Davis starrying the amazing Viola Davis.
Speaker 1: So Mia gets up and she gave, as we have
Speaker 1: in our gallery, this brilliant speech, tracing the history of
Speaker 1: her parents, the sacrifices they had made for her to
Speaker 1: be where she is, and then she says, you know
Speaker 1: there's going to be a time when a win like this,
Speaker 1: this was the first, you know, black person to win
Speaker 1: this award, that this will just be normal, Like can't
Speaker 1: we imagine a moment when this it won't be a
Speaker 1: big deal, That this is a first and our gallery
Speaker 1: is so full of these firsts. And the goal is, though,
Speaker 1: as she puts it so beautifully, to get to a
Speaker 1: place where this is not the anomaly. So the symbolic
Speaker 1: meaning even for the voters and for the public to
Speaker 1: recognize talent in all of his forms and to then
Speaker 1: provide more opportunities for people, you know, is deeply meaningful
Speaker 1: and the Oscars is an incredible stage for that too. Jack,
Speaker 1: I want to I want to ask you about another
Speaker 1: person that's in that exhibit, Sash and Little Tether. She
Speaker 1: rejects the award, and you've told me about this very
Speaker 1: regretfully cannot accept this very generous award, and the reasons
Speaker 1: for this being are the treatment of American Indians today
Speaker 1: by the film industry. Excuse me. You know, we see
Speaker 1: this amazing moment. There's like tumult going on in the
Speaker 1: academy and the audience they don't know what's going on
Speaker 1: because somebody has walked up there who's not They didn't know.
Speaker 1: You told me that John Wayne is backstage and like
Speaker 1: he literally has to be held back from like that
Speaker 1: he's going to attack her story, that story. Yeah, this
Speaker 1: is to get back to what you were saying before, Khalil,
Speaker 1: this is understood to be the first political speech given
Speaker 1: on the Oscar stage because she was wondering and um,
Speaker 1: you know, so it gets to these questions of is
Speaker 1: this a place for politics? It's already a place for politics. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, could we follow up on that really quickly?
Speaker 1: I mean, given that it was a political speech and
Speaker 1: for you, as the custodian of the history of the oscars,
Speaker 1: are saying, it's really the first one acknowledges a political speech.
Speaker 1: What exactly was the story with Marlon Brando's own winning
Speaker 1: role for The Godfather, which of course is one of
Speaker 1: the most iconic canonical films ever made in Hollywood? Uh?
Speaker 1: And Sachin Little Feather like, how did how did that
Speaker 1: actually come together in terms of him not showing up
Speaker 1: in her being there in his place, right right? Well,
Speaker 1: I can't not refer to our own Academy Museum podcast
Speaker 1: episode on a Time, Okay, yes, to summarize it. Marlon
Speaker 1: Brando and we had his daughter, Rebecca Brando here for
Speaker 1: a program just for our own team because we wanted
Speaker 1: to learn more about this background in history and educate ourselves.
Speaker 1: But she talked about how passionate he was with regard
Speaker 1: to UM, indigenous rights and Native American issues, and that
Speaker 1: he was really undergoing a long process himself of learning
Speaker 1: that he had a whole library of books about Native
Speaker 1: American culture UM and his he was getting woke. He was,
Speaker 1: he was getting woke. I mean, you know, he was.
Speaker 1: She was really reiterating to us that he was walking
Speaker 1: the walk as far as he could. But he also
Speaker 1: recognized that he should not be the one to speak
Speaker 1: on behalf of Native American issues on that stage, so
Speaker 1: he reached out to her. So he had planned to
Speaker 1: given the film, even though the film has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with Native people, it was it was such a
Speaker 1: burning issue for him at that moment, and the American
Speaker 1: Indian Movement and the second Wounded Knee confrontation between the
Speaker 1: federal government and Native populations was in the news and
Speaker 1: a big deal, and and Marlon Brando's like, look, you
Speaker 1: know this. It was his version of taking a knee
Speaker 1: in the Colin Kaepernick sense of it. It's like, I
Speaker 1: am not going to participate in this, this charade of
Speaker 1: a country that has consistently done what it's done to
Speaker 1: the Native people. Yeah, okay, I understand. I think we're
Speaker 1: going to get you up on the stage. Who do
Speaker 1: you want to replace? Who do you want to go
Speaker 1: up in there? And so I'm gonna go backstage and
Speaker 1: take care of John Wayne. That's what that's gonna be
Speaker 1: my job. Listen, Jackie, this is yes great. I just
Speaker 1: gonna say it really did call attention to what was
Speaker 1: happening at Wounded Knee at a moment when the press
Speaker 1: was not paying attention to it, and so it was
Speaker 1: had material impact on that movement. Yeah. Well, it turns
Speaker 1: out there's so much more going on at the movies
Speaker 1: than than any of us ever imagined. We're gonna take
Speaker 1: another break, and when we come back, we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about another history making moment in Oscar's history. We'll
Speaker 1: be right back. We are back. Some of my best
Speaker 1: friends are with truly one of our best friends in
Speaker 1: the world and family, Unklin Najuma Stewart, Jackie Stewart. So, Jackie,
Speaker 1: you were at the Academy Awards last year with my
Speaker 1: wife Dan Yelle. You guys looked amazing. You were so beautiful.
Speaker 1: It was incredible. Nicole Kid make him up to us
Speaker 1: and told us how good we looked. I'm just I'm
Speaker 1: just saying, we'll listen. I just have to cut in
Speaker 1: here for a second. So, since I'm not married to
Speaker 1: either one of you, I just want a little word
Speaker 1: picture of what you were wearing that night. How about that? Oh,
Speaker 1: let's see. I had kind of kind of an indigo
Speaker 1: gown that had this fabulous cape with it and it
Speaker 1: was pretty extravagant. And Danielle had on this really beautiful,
Speaker 1: kind of structured U pink just gorgeous, gorgeous gown that
Speaker 1: was it asymmetrical structure, you know, like one shoulder four
Speaker 1: feet high, not four feet But she was making a statement.
Speaker 1: She makes a statement in anything, but yes, that nice.
Speaker 1: She was pretty really really on point. All right, all right,
Speaker 1: all right, Jackie. So you guys are sitting in the audience, okay, yes,
Speaker 1: and listen. You know it happens. Will Smith just in
Speaker 1: the middle of the ceremony walks up on stage and
Speaker 1: slaps the mess out of Chris Rock. We all saw
Speaker 1: it was crazy because time to process that we're watching
Speaker 1: on TV. We can look up things on the internet.
Speaker 1: What was it like just being there? Like, what were
Speaker 1: your immediate reactions? So it seemed like a joke. You know,
Speaker 1: it was so loud, maybe because of where you could
Speaker 1: actually hear it. You could you could hear the Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was so loud that I thought that was like
Speaker 1: a sound effect. But then it became clear that it
Speaker 1: was something that really happened. It was jarring. I would
Speaker 1: say it was jarring to everybody in the room. Listen.
Speaker 1: I just I used to run a museum, the Schoenberg Center,
Speaker 1: as you well know. So if I were the curator
Speaker 1: of the film department at Schomberg, and certainly as director Schoenberg,
Speaker 1: we would be having a meeting saying, how does this
Speaker 1: come into our archives? It is it? Just? You know,
Speaker 1: obviously the filming of the oscars itself is already going
Speaker 1: to be collected and preserve, that's obvious. But do you
Speaker 1: track the news cycle in order to be able to
Speaker 1: help or research or make sense of this, Because when
Speaker 1: we are caretakers of institutions like this, we have to
Speaker 1: think for people who will never even know this happened
Speaker 1: a hundred years from now, um, and for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: a researcher may actually want to know the backstory. How
Speaker 1: do you think today and how are you curators thinking
Speaker 1: today about how to make meaning of it for the future,
Speaker 1: because that's what that's what our jobs are in these
Speaker 1: in these curatorial archival roles. No, that's right, I mean
Speaker 1: that was one of the very first things I was
Speaker 1: thinking of, sitting in that balcony was because we were all,
Speaker 1: I'm there, the team is watching also, and we're thinking
Speaker 1: about what that panel for twenty two Oscars that we're
Speaker 1: going to put in the gallery, like, you know, we're
Speaker 1: hoping within a month of the show. Yeah, what are
Speaker 1: the significant moments that we're going to highlight there? It's
Speaker 1: a pretty significant moment. What we did was not track
Speaker 1: the news cycle, but we were waiting for the Academy's
Speaker 1: response because there was a period of time in which
Speaker 1: the governors were meeting and there was a lot of
Speaker 1: conversation among the membership about are there going to be consequences?
Speaker 1: If so, what are those consequences going to be? And
Speaker 1: that's what we ended up writing up in our you know,
Speaker 1: we talk about all the other amazing things that happened
Speaker 1: that night, like Ariana Debout was becoming the first Afro
Speaker 1: Latina to win an Academy award, and Troy Coster being
Speaker 1: the first deaf actor to win an award. There were
Speaker 1: so many other things that were significant, and the model
Speaker 1: for our gallery is, you know, it's a list a
Speaker 1: variety of things to try to give a sense of
Speaker 1: what the important moments are, but also things that signal
Speaker 1: cultural shifts or shifts in um sort of Academy approaches
Speaker 1: to awards and so on. But we had to write
Speaker 1: up this, this thing happened, this is how the Academy responded.
Speaker 1: So that's one place where we're where we're documenting this
Speaker 1: but also putting in that's the sort that's the shortest,
Speaker 1: most immediate response and like you know, longer museum making,
Speaker 1: like is this something that will go into an exhibit
Speaker 1: to imagine that happening for sure? You know, we this
Speaker 1: is the ninety fifth Oscars, so already we're thinking about
Speaker 1: the one hundredth. We have five years to think about
Speaker 1: ways that we're gonna narrate here the full century arc
Speaker 1: of the Academy and this, you know, this ceremony and
Speaker 1: this kind of industry self recognition that is the Academy Awards.
Speaker 1: And you know, this is definitely something it's not just
Speaker 1: a matter of like highlights lowlights. It's not that it
Speaker 1: has to do with the way that our understanding of
Speaker 1: stardom has evolved over time. It has to do also
Speaker 1: with the way that we're going to think about the
Speaker 1: racial politics of the Oscars. I mean, this is obviously
Speaker 1: one of the things that was so jarring for me
Speaker 1: and I think for a lot of other black folks watching.
Speaker 1: It's like, this is a story about two black men
Speaker 1: happening on this international stage, right, And then to think
Speaker 1: too about what I think all institutions need to think about,
Speaker 1: just like codes of conduct and expectations around behavior and um,
Speaker 1: and what are the kinds of ways that we want
Speaker 1: to create cultures where people feel safe and welcome it. Like,
Speaker 1: there's so many things we need to figure out overall
Speaker 1: among those lines that that became a signal moment for Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I imagine there'll be some art or something
Speaker 1: made of it too. I mean it was so such
Speaker 1: a roor shock of what you said of like how
Speaker 1: we conceive of race and gender politics and our culture.
Speaker 1: Like it was so loaded in very uncomfortable ways, but
Speaker 1: then also in ways that we can unpack. And you know,
Speaker 1: for for the actor, the star Will Smith, who is
Speaker 1: at the center of it and sort of you know,
Speaker 1: broke protocol in all these ways. Um. He then it's crazy.
Speaker 1: He goes on to win the Oscar of course moments later,
Speaker 1: and that's to get a speech. It's just wild and
Speaker 1: he's been sort of I mean he's not. He's been
Speaker 1: banned I think from the Oscars for a long decision
Speaker 1: was that for ten years he would not participate in
Speaker 1: any Academy activities. But that doesn't mean that he couldn't
Speaker 1: be nominated. I mean, his his colleagues may feel that
Speaker 1: he turns in a performance that is, you know, worthy
Speaker 1: of nomination. I'm glad you. I'm glad you corrected that.
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure about that. Khalil actually recently met up
Speaker 1: with him because Kalil was on the Red Table, the
Speaker 1: show that Will Smith and his family put together, because
Speaker 1: Will Smith had this new movie and and he invited
Speaker 1: Khalil out to talk about the history. Khalil, did it
Speaker 1: feel like a kind of miaculpla tour? Did it feel
Speaker 1: like he was still responding to that moment? Oh? Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean there's no question. This film that Will Smith
Speaker 1: makes is called Emancipation. It's set in the Civil War
Speaker 1: context about a man who escapes from slavery and joins
Speaker 1: the Union army and fights for freedom. It's a really
Speaker 1: important moment because this man becomes the most photographed formerly
Speaker 1: enslaved person and helps just to win the tide for
Speaker 1: the Union in terms of the war itself. And I
Speaker 1: have to say for me personally, being invited onto the
Speaker 1: Red Table to have this conversation, which was mostly about
Speaker 1: my expertise as a historian, did create a choice, right.
Speaker 1: It created a moment where not unlike you as a
Speaker 1: caretaker of this institution, your institutional im premature matters in
Speaker 1: a moment of controversy, my personal credibility in choosing to
Speaker 1: be in his space to essentially to help in a
Speaker 1: kind of diplomatic way, say, you know, it's okay to
Speaker 1: watch this guy's film like it's complicated, but you know
Speaker 1: not that this has deadly squad to do with the oscars,
Speaker 1: but it does have to do with the choices we
Speaker 1: all make, right, And the choice I made at that
Speaker 1: point was that it was okay to let this film
Speaker 1: breathe and to essentially welcome Will back to the public
Speaker 1: space for whatever it's worth. Well, but it was also
Speaker 1: an opportunity for you to share your expertise, right, Like
Speaker 1: there are certain there are these moments when it's not
Speaker 1: only a personal decision you're making or a career decision
Speaker 1: that you're making, although people may try to cast it
Speaker 1: that way at the moment how could you do that?
Speaker 1: Do that? But it's also we have to make these
Speaker 1: kind of measured decisions about I try to look at
Speaker 1: the bigger picture, like what is the bigger the bigger picture, right,
Speaker 1: I'm sure I had many colleagues who are like, why
Speaker 1: are you academy because people have such like polarizing associations
Speaker 1: with the academy. I really looked at the bigger picture.
Speaker 1: If this is an opportunity to share my expertise, not
Speaker 1: just like in terms of public interaction, but with a
Speaker 1: whole group of professionals who are going to be creating
Speaker 1: these moments of film, exhibition and history writing. I just
Speaker 1: couldn't pass up the opportunity to do that. And you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: you mean you mean just in this job that you're
Speaker 1: in now, that's right, that's right. So the media cycle
Speaker 1: of crazy things that happened just never never ends. And
Speaker 1: I feel that we need to have people who are
Speaker 1: and I hope that I am like an ethical person,
Speaker 1: a reasonable person, a smart person, just in the rooms
Speaker 1: when conversations and decisions are being made about what these
Speaker 1: things mean, what they can mean in the future. And
Speaker 1: that means you know that you sometimes interact with people
Speaker 1: that you wouldn't have interacted with by choice before. But
Speaker 1: but it's essential if we're going to move any of
Speaker 1: this stuff forward. Yeah, well, for what is worth. Will
Speaker 1: is a nice guy and so we're his kids, So
Speaker 1: for what it's worth. And you also get to interact
Speaker 1: with people that you admire and that you've sort of
Speaker 1: seen from afar and you know this is that must
Speaker 1: also be amazing incredible, It really is. Yeah, No, it's true.
Speaker 1: We have so many amazing supporters and there are also
Speaker 1: so many just incredible black movie professionals who have welcomed
Speaker 1: me with open arms to the museum and offered their support. Um,
Speaker 1: it's been deeply meaningful. Yeah, well that's beautiful. Thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you. Keep on doing the
Speaker 1: great work. Uh. You know, we are your your biggest fans.
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of the two of you and this
Speaker 1: space that you've created for you know, these conversations. It
Speaker 1: means a lot to me to be your first repeat guest.
Speaker 1: And yeah, Oscar for best Museum President, everyd goes to
Speaker 1: Jackie Stewart. Thank you so much, Jackie for going on
Speaker 1: you love you both, love you too, love you too.
Speaker 1: So Khalil at the Academy Museum. One of the exhibits
Speaker 1: they have is you go into a booth and there's
Speaker 1: a screen that films you as you accept the oscar,
Speaker 1: actually hold up an oscar and you know, you give.
Speaker 1: It doesn't actually record your words, but you know you
Speaker 1: you say them and you put up your hands. It's
Speaker 1: really awesome. I mean, you you you imagine what you
Speaker 1: would say in that moment, and what's the film that
Speaker 1: you imagined having made when you did that while you
Speaker 1: were there? Come on, it's a screen adaptation. As some
Speaker 1: of my best friends are, Oh, of course, what was
Speaker 1: I thinking? Because I well, I was I got writer
Speaker 1: actor for playing both roles, you know, like I did
Speaker 1: like the face off thing where I had to play
Speaker 1: both of us. Yeah, and it was like soul man too,
Speaker 1: You're silly, You're silly. You know. One of the things
Speaker 1: that just jumped out at me in this conversation was
Speaker 1: that moment of John Wayne backstage and I the moment
Speaker 1: you told that story and about Sashen Little Feather and
Speaker 1: John Wayne wanting to literally come out and attack her.
Speaker 1: It really was like, it's like him imagining you know,
Speaker 1: he's this Western star and really imagining this like cowboys
Speaker 1: and Indians fight in of American history. It turns out,
Speaker 1: I think you know this, that there's even more to
Speaker 1: Sashin Little Feathers story that upon her deaths her sister
Speaker 1: came out and said that she was not Native, that
Speaker 1: sash Little Feather was not Native, even though sort of
Speaker 1: her activism throughout her life was on behalf of Native people. Wow,
Speaker 1: it's like Rachel dolasal man Or or or or going
Speaker 1: or going back to soul Man again, back out back
Speaker 1: where it's all it's all circular, kid, It's all what
Speaker 1: a crazy revent you we live in? All right? I'll
Speaker 1: see you in the movies. I'll see you there, Love you,
Speaker 1: Love you. Some of My Best Friends Are is a
Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted
Speaker 1: by me Khalil Jibron Muhammad and my best friend Ben Austin.
Speaker 1: This show is produced by Lucy Sullivan. It's edited by
Speaker 1: Sarah Knicks with help from Keishell Williams. Our engineer is
Speaker 1: Amanda Kawan, and our managing producer is Constanza Gallardo. At Pushkin.
Speaker 1: Thanks to Leita Mulad, Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori,
Speaker 1: John Schnars, Gretta Kone, and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song,
Speaker 1: Little Lily, is by fellow Chicagoan the Brilliant Avery R. Young,
Speaker 1: from his album Tubman. You definitely want to check out
Speaker 1: his music at his website Avery R. Young dot com.
Speaker 1: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin Pods,
Speaker 1: and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin
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