1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:32,636 Speaker 1: Push it. I'm Khalil Gibran Muhammad. I'm Ben Austin. We 2 00:00:32,716 --> 00:00:37,676 Speaker 1: are two best friends, one black, one white. I'm a 3 00:00:37,796 --> 00:00:41,196 Speaker 1: historian and I'm a journalist. And this is some of 4 00:00:41,236 --> 00:00:45,316 Speaker 1: my best friends are some of my best friends are Okay, 5 00:00:45,436 --> 00:00:48,276 Speaker 1: you get it. So in this show, we wrestle with 6 00:00:48,316 --> 00:00:52,476 Speaker 1: the challenges and the absurdities of a deeply divided and 7 00:00:52,596 --> 00:00:55,156 Speaker 1: unequal country. And you know, one of the most visible 8 00:00:55,196 --> 00:00:58,756 Speaker 1: ways this inequality has manifested in society is on the 9 00:00:58,796 --> 00:01:02,596 Speaker 1: big screen. That's right, at the movies. And it's Academy 10 00:01:02,636 --> 00:01:06,196 Speaker 1: Awards season. That's right, that's right, totally, totally, and you know, 11 00:01:06,316 --> 00:01:09,596 Speaker 1: since its Oscar season, we wanted to bring out our 12 00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:14,396 Speaker 1: best friend and family Jacqueline Stewart. She's back on the show. 13 00:01:14,836 --> 00:01:18,156 Speaker 1: She's the director and President of the Academy Museum of 14 00:01:18,236 --> 00:01:21,036 Speaker 1: Motion Pictures, and we're going to check in with her 15 00:01:21,116 --> 00:01:24,436 Speaker 1: about how she understands the movie industry in her new 16 00:01:24,516 --> 00:01:28,316 Speaker 1: role and how race, identity and politics work in the 17 00:01:28,356 --> 00:01:42,796 Speaker 1: film industry. Let's do it, hey, Khalil. It's Oscar season, 18 00:01:43,796 --> 00:01:48,636 Speaker 1: the Academy Awards, the movie industry's biggest night. It's always 19 00:01:48,636 --> 00:01:52,076 Speaker 1: fraught with identity and politics and race. But it makes 20 00:01:52,116 --> 00:01:55,756 Speaker 1: me think about why movies matter and then why they 21 00:01:55,796 --> 00:01:58,396 Speaker 1: matter to me, you know, what movies are important? And 22 00:01:58,436 --> 00:02:00,636 Speaker 1: I was thinking about a movie that has been really 23 00:02:00,676 --> 00:02:03,596 Speaker 1: formative in my life, and and I've got one that's 24 00:02:03,636 --> 00:02:05,796 Speaker 1: kind of an oddball, is it? I hope it's not 25 00:02:05,876 --> 00:02:08,396 Speaker 1: at X rated. No, no, not at all, not at all. 26 00:02:08,676 --> 00:02:13,116 Speaker 1: Only this podcast is only gum. So one day, my 27 00:02:13,116 --> 00:02:16,076 Speaker 1: brother Jake and I we take the bus from South 28 00:02:16,116 --> 00:02:18,076 Speaker 1: Shore to hyde Park and we go to the Hyde 29 00:02:18,076 --> 00:02:19,996 Speaker 1: Park Theater and we pay our way to get into 30 00:02:19,996 --> 00:02:23,316 Speaker 1: a double feature and the first movie is Blazing Saddles 31 00:02:24,076 --> 00:02:27,636 Speaker 1: and Blazing Saddles. It is this mel Brooks comedy I think. 32 00:02:27,756 --> 00:02:29,876 Speaker 1: I think it's from the early nineteen seventies, so this 33 00:02:29,916 --> 00:02:31,916 Speaker 1: is the early probably the early nineteen eighties. That we 34 00:02:31,956 --> 00:02:35,836 Speaker 1: go see it, and it's a parody of a Western 35 00:02:36,356 --> 00:02:39,516 Speaker 1: it's said It's said in the West. And you know, 36 00:02:39,756 --> 00:02:41,956 Speaker 1: up to that point in our lives, I'll say my 37 00:02:42,076 --> 00:02:44,596 Speaker 1: movie going experience, up to that point in my life 38 00:02:44,836 --> 00:02:47,876 Speaker 1: was pretty much tagging along with my parents, but we 39 00:02:48,436 --> 00:02:50,476 Speaker 1: would go see the movies that they wanted to see. 40 00:02:50,836 --> 00:02:53,276 Speaker 1: So that was my experience so far. So Jake and 41 00:02:53,316 --> 00:02:56,796 Speaker 1: I sit down in this movie blazing saddles, and you know, 42 00:02:56,916 --> 00:03:01,716 Speaker 1: it is uproarious. There the humor, it's like parody. It's 43 00:03:01,716 --> 00:03:04,556 Speaker 1: like breaking the fourth wall. It is like a barrage 44 00:03:04,636 --> 00:03:08,596 Speaker 1: of jokes. They're fart jokes. There are like sight DAGs, 45 00:03:08,836 --> 00:03:12,796 Speaker 1: there are like you know, it is just like building 46 00:03:12,796 --> 00:03:16,236 Speaker 1: and building and building. And at one point like like 47 00:03:16,316 --> 00:03:20,636 Speaker 1: we are just our mouths are open, and we turned 48 00:03:20,676 --> 00:03:22,316 Speaker 1: to one. I don't even know which one of us 49 00:03:22,316 --> 00:03:23,836 Speaker 1: said it. I think we almost both said it at 50 00:03:23,876 --> 00:03:29,276 Speaker 1: the exact time, and we said, they make movies for us. Yes, well, 51 00:03:29,676 --> 00:03:32,556 Speaker 1: all right, so my turn. So I've been thinking about 52 00:03:32,556 --> 00:03:35,836 Speaker 1: this too, And of course this film, I think for 53 00:03:35,916 --> 00:03:38,956 Speaker 1: a lot of our listeners was revolutionary, and that is 54 00:03:38,996 --> 00:03:42,316 Speaker 1: Spike Lee's do the Right Thing Comes out in nineteen 55 00:03:42,356 --> 00:03:46,076 Speaker 1: eighty nine. And for me, the issues in this film 56 00:03:46,196 --> 00:03:50,196 Speaker 1: could not have been more relevant, more personal, more connected. 57 00:03:50,356 --> 00:03:53,316 Speaker 1: I at the time, across most of the nineteen eighties 58 00:03:53,356 --> 00:03:55,436 Speaker 1: was living in New York City during the summers with 59 00:03:55,476 --> 00:03:59,156 Speaker 1: my father. He lived for a time in Fort Green, Brooklyn, 60 00:03:59,236 --> 00:04:02,356 Speaker 1: where Spike Lee lived and was a visible presence on 61 00:04:02,396 --> 00:04:04,956 Speaker 1: the streets. That was like the mid nineteen eighties. So 62 00:04:04,996 --> 00:04:07,156 Speaker 1: when the film comes out in nineteen eighty nine, like, 63 00:04:07,276 --> 00:04:09,676 Speaker 1: I know the world that he's created in this film. 64 00:04:09,796 --> 00:04:12,716 Speaker 1: I have experienced it. And even though we were native Chicagoans, 65 00:04:12,756 --> 00:04:15,636 Speaker 1: I had this incredible childhood where I got to spend 66 00:04:15,636 --> 00:04:18,636 Speaker 1: all these summers in New York. And of course the 67 00:04:18,636 --> 00:04:24,156 Speaker 1: film turns on the intense race relations of nineteen eighties 68 00:04:24,236 --> 00:04:27,756 Speaker 1: New York. It culminates in a police killing and all 69 00:04:27,796 --> 00:04:30,956 Speaker 1: the racism that is seething beneath the surface with white 70 00:04:30,956 --> 00:04:34,236 Speaker 1: Ethnics and Italians in particular, and black folks and Puerto Ricans. 71 00:04:34,276 --> 00:04:37,356 Speaker 1: All of it's there. Also, like that movie crazy formative 72 00:04:37,396 --> 00:04:40,436 Speaker 1: for me. I went to go see it with Danielle 73 00:04:40,476 --> 00:04:43,476 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty nine, my wife. We were just starting 74 00:04:43,476 --> 00:04:45,996 Speaker 1: to date at that point. But after the film, like 75 00:04:46,036 --> 00:04:48,356 Speaker 1: this film with like you're just trying to process it. 76 00:04:48,356 --> 00:04:50,556 Speaker 1: It's beautiful, and we go to River Oaks out in 77 00:04:50,396 --> 00:04:52,236 Speaker 1: the in the southern suburbs to see it, which is 78 00:04:52,276 --> 00:04:54,076 Speaker 1: what you did back in the eighties. We go to 79 00:04:54,116 --> 00:04:57,276 Speaker 1: Bennigan's after to get a meal and I go to 80 00:04:57,316 --> 00:04:58,916 Speaker 1: the bathroom and I come back from there's a woman 81 00:04:58,996 --> 00:05:01,996 Speaker 1: talking to Danielle, a black woman, and I get back 82 00:05:01,996 --> 00:05:04,116 Speaker 1: to the table and the woman walks away and the 83 00:05:04,156 --> 00:05:06,676 Speaker 1: woman had Danielle turns to me and says, that woman 84 00:05:06,756 --> 00:05:08,436 Speaker 1: just said to me, I saw you in the theater 85 00:05:09,116 --> 00:05:11,796 Speaker 1: after seeing that movie. How could you be here with 86 00:05:11,876 --> 00:05:15,356 Speaker 1: him meeting with a white guy? And I like sat down. 87 00:05:15,396 --> 00:05:18,556 Speaker 1: I was like, was that the message of the movie. 88 00:05:18,596 --> 00:05:21,036 Speaker 1: I was like, I wasn't pissed. I was like actually 89 00:05:21,036 --> 00:05:23,876 Speaker 1: trying to still process the film, like that movie was 90 00:05:23,916 --> 00:05:26,956 Speaker 1: loaded in so many ways, Like was that really the message? 91 00:05:26,996 --> 00:05:31,196 Speaker 1: I don't think so. Yeah, yeah, man, you were diluting 92 00:05:31,276 --> 00:05:34,916 Speaker 1: our racial stock. The thing is, though, it's like many 93 00:05:35,036 --> 00:05:39,076 Speaker 1: years later, I got to meet Spike Lee at Indiana University. 94 00:05:39,356 --> 00:05:41,476 Speaker 1: I was there as faculty member, and he came to 95 00:05:41,516 --> 00:05:44,796 Speaker 1: talk about how he'd been snubbed by the Oscars so 96 00:05:44,836 --> 00:05:47,076 Speaker 1: many times in his career, and he talked about do 97 00:05:47,156 --> 00:05:49,716 Speaker 1: the right thing. He talked about Malcolm Malcolm X, it's 98 00:05:49,716 --> 00:05:52,036 Speaker 1: like a perfect movie Malcolm X. Yeah, that's right. This 99 00:05:52,036 --> 00:05:56,436 Speaker 1: guy was pissed, and I don't think I really remembered 100 00:05:56,476 --> 00:05:59,876 Speaker 1: at the time that the year that he didn't get 101 00:05:59,916 --> 00:06:03,236 Speaker 1: an Oscar for Best Picture or Best Director, which was 102 00:06:03,356 --> 00:06:08,196 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety Oscars, the film did get two nominations for 103 00:06:08,356 --> 00:06:11,916 Speaker 1: a Rich sporting Actor Danny I Yellow and Original Screenplay. 104 00:06:11,996 --> 00:06:14,076 Speaker 1: He didn't win any of them, so the film won nothing. 105 00:06:14,396 --> 00:06:17,676 Speaker 1: Guess what won that year? Guess what swept the Oscars? 106 00:06:18,716 --> 00:06:23,276 Speaker 1: Nineteen nineteen ninety not Scent of a Woman that's like 107 00:06:23,356 --> 00:06:28,796 Speaker 1: ninety two, what is it? It's driving Miss Daisy driving 108 00:06:28,836 --> 00:06:33,356 Speaker 1: Miss Daisy Man. It's like the punchline dre a joke. 109 00:06:33,596 --> 00:06:36,836 Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's so unbelievable that a film that 110 00:06:36,956 --> 00:06:39,916 Speaker 1: sort of recapitulates the you know, the old tropes of 111 00:06:39,956 --> 00:06:45,756 Speaker 1: the white savior, the black helpmate, you know, the traditional 112 00:06:45,836 --> 00:06:50,036 Speaker 1: subservience and stereotypes of black people. Um. Ironically enough, the 113 00:06:50,076 --> 00:06:53,876 Speaker 1: woman's Jewish and the main character, Morgan Friedman, who is 114 00:06:53,916 --> 00:06:56,156 Speaker 1: the chauffeur in this film, is black. So there we 115 00:06:56,236 --> 00:06:58,676 Speaker 1: go black and Jewish relations. But yeah, the movie swept 116 00:06:58,676 --> 00:07:03,916 Speaker 1: the Oscars. So that's that is both for me, a 117 00:07:04,076 --> 00:07:07,236 Speaker 1: story about like my coming of age in the movies 118 00:07:07,356 --> 00:07:09,676 Speaker 1: do the right thing, of course, Rosie Perez is no joke, 119 00:07:10,436 --> 00:07:14,236 Speaker 1: and also thinking about like this conversation today about the 120 00:07:14,276 --> 00:07:17,236 Speaker 1: Oscars being still so white, I mean, here we are, 121 00:07:17,676 --> 00:07:20,676 Speaker 1: and the way that movies matter. That both sort of 122 00:07:20,676 --> 00:07:23,076 Speaker 1: how they represent our world and how they fail to 123 00:07:23,116 --> 00:07:26,636 Speaker 1: represent and how we're sort of embroiled in that dialogue 124 00:07:26,676 --> 00:07:30,556 Speaker 1: with films. We want to see the world through them, 125 00:07:30,636 --> 00:07:33,436 Speaker 1: and we also make sense of the world. So we 126 00:07:33,476 --> 00:07:35,876 Speaker 1: are going to dive into the movies today and we 127 00:07:35,916 --> 00:07:39,116 Speaker 1: are doing it with the perfect person. All Right, we 128 00:07:39,196 --> 00:07:43,476 Speaker 1: have Jacqueline Najuma Stewart back on the show. She was 129 00:07:43,516 --> 00:07:46,236 Speaker 1: here on the in season one. She is back on 130 00:07:46,276 --> 00:07:48,796 Speaker 1: the show. She is the perfect person to talk about movies. 131 00:07:49,076 --> 00:07:52,436 Speaker 1: She is the director and president of the Academy Museum 132 00:07:52,476 --> 00:07:56,796 Speaker 1: of Motion Pictures, the movie museum in Los Angeles. Her 133 00:07:56,956 --> 00:08:00,796 Speaker 1: job is to make movies and the history of movies, 134 00:08:00,836 --> 00:08:04,236 Speaker 1: the culture of movies, make them into this giant museum, 135 00:08:04,476 --> 00:08:07,596 Speaker 1: and make sense of them, make it important to the public. Yeah, 136 00:08:07,636 --> 00:08:10,796 Speaker 1: she actually is helping to build the museum from scratch, 137 00:08:11,316 --> 00:08:14,836 Speaker 1: and in that responsibility, they have to design a program 138 00:08:14,916 --> 00:08:19,156 Speaker 1: which includes exhibition, which includes events, which includes film screenings. 139 00:08:19,596 --> 00:08:22,916 Speaker 1: And as the senior executive of this organization, she's got 140 00:08:22,956 --> 00:08:26,676 Speaker 1: a huge set of responsibilities the caretaker of the official 141 00:08:26,716 --> 00:08:29,396 Speaker 1: history of the Academy as well as how the Academy 142 00:08:29,556 --> 00:08:32,996 Speaker 1: teaches future generations about the meaning of movies. It's an 143 00:08:33,036 --> 00:08:36,956 Speaker 1: incredible job. And listen, and Jackie went to prim with 144 00:08:36,996 --> 00:08:41,716 Speaker 1: my brother high school prom. Yes, they got married, have 145 00:08:41,836 --> 00:08:46,516 Speaker 1: two children. Jackie has known me and you yeah, pretty 146 00:08:46,596 --> 00:08:49,396 Speaker 1: much since we've been kids, you know, and she is 147 00:08:49,436 --> 00:08:54,116 Speaker 1: my sister. I love her. Yeah. Just for the record, though, 148 00:08:54,116 --> 00:08:58,236 Speaker 1: this conversation happened before we knew this year's Oscars winners. 149 00:08:58,836 --> 00:09:02,596 Speaker 1: So we're excited about talking about the museum and learning 150 00:09:02,636 --> 00:09:05,636 Speaker 1: a lot more about the role of the Oscars itself 151 00:09:05,836 --> 00:09:10,116 Speaker 1: in shaping American culture. Yeah, yeah, so obvious. See, you know, 152 00:09:10,156 --> 00:09:13,876 Speaker 1: this conversation about Oscar so white and Oscar's still being 153 00:09:13,916 --> 00:09:17,956 Speaker 1: so white and wrestling with sort of race and culture 154 00:09:18,396 --> 00:09:21,516 Speaker 1: and American identity as part of films. That's what we're 155 00:09:21,556 --> 00:09:24,676 Speaker 1: gonna unpack with her. That's right, let's do it. Let's 156 00:09:24,676 --> 00:09:27,476 Speaker 1: go roll the tape, turn off the lights, hand me 157 00:09:27,476 --> 00:09:35,276 Speaker 1: the popcorn. Let's go. So Jackie, we get to say 158 00:09:35,356 --> 00:09:38,356 Speaker 1: something to you that we've not said to any guest yet, 159 00:09:38,756 --> 00:09:42,436 Speaker 1: which is welcome back. Yes, some of my best friends 160 00:09:42,436 --> 00:09:47,876 Speaker 1: are welcome. That isn't hot. Yes, thank you for having 161 00:09:47,876 --> 00:09:51,396 Speaker 1: me back. Yes, for those who didn't have the pleasure 162 00:09:51,436 --> 00:09:56,196 Speaker 1: of hearing Jackie last season, doctor Jacqueline Stewart was our 163 00:09:56,236 --> 00:10:00,156 Speaker 1: guest to help us unpack the meaning of interracial buddy films, 164 00:10:00,196 --> 00:10:04,396 Speaker 1: the long genre, the nuances, the lack of women in 165 00:10:04,436 --> 00:10:07,436 Speaker 1: these films. It was our first episode when some of 166 00:10:07,436 --> 00:10:11,076 Speaker 1: our best friends launched that conversation that we subsequently have 167 00:10:11,196 --> 00:10:13,716 Speaker 1: with Jackie. So thank you so much for coming back on. Man, 168 00:10:13,756 --> 00:10:16,636 Speaker 1: it's my pleasure, man, the first episode. I mean, that's 169 00:10:16,716 --> 00:10:19,636 Speaker 1: that's incredible. We're family here in a way that that 170 00:10:19,716 --> 00:10:23,756 Speaker 1: people don't necessarily don't. Your aunt and my mom grew 171 00:10:23,836 --> 00:10:27,516 Speaker 1: up together. I mean, like bff's for real, when I 172 00:10:27,596 --> 00:10:30,556 Speaker 1: was like a newborn. Yeah, and you you know, we 173 00:10:30,716 --> 00:10:33,476 Speaker 1: we've all been connected since uh, you know, since Khalil 174 00:10:33,476 --> 00:10:35,796 Speaker 1: and I I'd say probably ninth grade. You've known us, 175 00:10:35,836 --> 00:10:38,276 Speaker 1: your were we go way back. It's pretty amazing when 176 00:10:38,316 --> 00:10:41,556 Speaker 1: you actually count up the years. You know, we're getting old, 177 00:10:41,916 --> 00:10:45,996 Speaker 1: we're getting older and wiser. I feel like we have 178 00:10:46,156 --> 00:10:49,236 Speaker 1: really champion each other and all the work that we do. 179 00:10:49,996 --> 00:10:52,836 Speaker 1: I definitely feel like my family is the baseline for 180 00:10:52,876 --> 00:10:55,516 Speaker 1: everything that I've been able to accomplish, and you too 181 00:10:55,516 --> 00:10:59,556 Speaker 1: are a big part of that. I love that. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, Well, 182 00:10:59,596 --> 00:11:02,236 Speaker 1: needless to say, we're proud of you, and uh, you 183 00:11:02,276 --> 00:11:04,116 Speaker 1: know been and I talked a lot about Chicago being 184 00:11:04,356 --> 00:11:07,836 Speaker 1: home base, right, and of course you share that. But 185 00:11:08,156 --> 00:11:12,556 Speaker 1: I went east, Jackie, and you went west. So you're 186 00:11:12,636 --> 00:11:16,716 Speaker 1: now in in the movie making capital of the world. 187 00:11:17,316 --> 00:11:22,036 Speaker 1: You are in Los Angeles, California, and we were excited 188 00:11:22,116 --> 00:11:25,236 Speaker 1: last year about your big promotion. You were then the 189 00:11:25,356 --> 00:11:29,476 Speaker 1: chief artistic and Programming Officer at the Academy Museum of 190 00:11:29,556 --> 00:11:33,916 Speaker 1: Motion Pictures and drumroll please, la da da da. Now 191 00:11:34,116 --> 00:11:37,556 Speaker 1: you are the president of the Academy Museum of Motion Pictures. 192 00:11:38,116 --> 00:11:41,996 Speaker 1: That is awesome, It's amazing. It's amazing to me q 193 00:11:42,716 --> 00:11:48,436 Speaker 1: Q moving on, yes, yes, and and and of course 194 00:11:48,996 --> 00:11:51,836 Speaker 1: along the way, just as a testament to your brilliance, 195 00:11:51,876 --> 00:11:54,316 Speaker 1: you just you know, snatched a little your own little 196 00:11:54,596 --> 00:11:58,956 Speaker 1: Oscars for Academia, a MacArthur Genius Award in the meantime. 197 00:11:59,076 --> 00:12:02,396 Speaker 1: So we are really proud of you. So we wanted 198 00:12:02,396 --> 00:12:05,436 Speaker 1: to get this conversation started because it is Oscar season. 199 00:12:05,636 --> 00:12:08,596 Speaker 1: It is that time of year when the biggest night 200 00:12:08,756 --> 00:12:12,636 Speaker 1: in Hollywood occurs, and we wanted to learn a little 201 00:12:12,676 --> 00:12:15,716 Speaker 1: bit more about what exactly does the president of the 202 00:12:15,796 --> 00:12:20,396 Speaker 1: Academy Museum of Motion Pictures do great question. So the 203 00:12:20,436 --> 00:12:24,196 Speaker 1: Academy Museum opened in September of twenty twenty one. So 204 00:12:24,236 --> 00:12:28,676 Speaker 1: we're still kind of like a toddler almost almost in 205 00:12:28,716 --> 00:12:33,316 Speaker 1: our infancy. And just to give some background, so the 206 00:12:33,356 --> 00:12:36,316 Speaker 1: Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences was founded in 207 00:12:36,316 --> 00:12:39,836 Speaker 1: the late nineteen twenties, and even back then the founders 208 00:12:39,836 --> 00:12:42,356 Speaker 1: were like, part of what we should have in terms 209 00:12:42,396 --> 00:12:46,196 Speaker 1: of amplifying the arts of moviemaking is we should have 210 00:12:46,276 --> 00:12:49,236 Speaker 1: a museum. So it's been an idea that the Academy 211 00:12:49,316 --> 00:12:54,156 Speaker 1: has had for almost a hundred years, and then over 212 00:12:54,196 --> 00:12:57,196 Speaker 1: the generations there were various attempts to try to bring 213 00:12:57,236 --> 00:13:00,356 Speaker 1: it to reality. But really this project in the form 214 00:13:00,436 --> 00:13:02,476 Speaker 1: that it takes now, this campus that we have on 215 00:13:02,676 --> 00:13:07,556 Speaker 1: Fairfax and willshare in Los Angeles, is about ten years 216 00:13:07,676 --> 00:13:10,956 Speaker 1: in the making. And Jackie, I visited the museum. You 217 00:13:11,076 --> 00:13:13,116 Speaker 1: gave me a partial tour, and then I walked around 218 00:13:13,196 --> 00:13:17,196 Speaker 1: with my son Jonah, and it's it succeeds in so 219 00:13:17,236 --> 00:13:19,996 Speaker 1: many different ways. I mean, I think about movies being 220 00:13:20,076 --> 00:13:22,516 Speaker 1: part of our culture and you know, and that were 221 00:13:22,836 --> 00:13:25,116 Speaker 1: we were fans of them, and so there's like this 222 00:13:25,196 --> 00:13:28,156 Speaker 1: kind of museum of just fandom. And then there's also 223 00:13:28,236 --> 00:13:30,236 Speaker 1: this museums are part of our history, you know, the 224 00:13:30,316 --> 00:13:32,916 Speaker 1: happiness certain moments, and they're also conveying history, and you're 225 00:13:32,956 --> 00:13:35,956 Speaker 1: telling both the history of museum of movies and the 226 00:13:36,036 --> 00:13:39,156 Speaker 1: history that they're encased in. I was so moved by 227 00:13:39,236 --> 00:13:44,236 Speaker 1: just seeing like framed screens and inside of them different 228 00:13:44,236 --> 00:13:46,556 Speaker 1: movies going on, different and in the way I would 229 00:13:46,596 --> 00:13:48,836 Speaker 1: be in an art museum, and to see that, to 230 00:13:48,876 --> 00:13:51,876 Speaker 1: see this beauty, um it's powerful in all those different ways. 231 00:13:51,876 --> 00:13:54,836 Speaker 1: It felt like there was something for everybody. I'm saying that, 232 00:13:55,036 --> 00:13:58,796 Speaker 1: like everyone should go because it's you're definitely going to 233 00:13:58,836 --> 00:14:01,196 Speaker 1: connect with us. That means a lot. I mean that's 234 00:14:01,236 --> 00:14:04,356 Speaker 1: our goal. That's really the goal that we have. You know, 235 00:14:04,516 --> 00:14:09,156 Speaker 1: there are ways that our memories are activated by the 236 00:14:09,196 --> 00:14:11,996 Speaker 1: movies that we love, our moviegoing experiences. I mean, I've 237 00:14:12,036 --> 00:14:14,556 Speaker 1: heard you and Jake, your brother talk lots of times 238 00:14:14,596 --> 00:14:19,036 Speaker 1: about memorable moviegoing experiences with the theater. Moments were like 239 00:14:19,236 --> 00:14:21,476 Speaker 1: in films that maybe you shouldn't have seen at a 240 00:14:21,516 --> 00:14:23,756 Speaker 1: younger age, which you saw them anyway, Like they're just 241 00:14:24,196 --> 00:14:26,676 Speaker 1: there's an emotional connection that people have to movie going, 242 00:14:26,796 --> 00:14:31,076 Speaker 1: So we want to harness that and honor that and 243 00:14:31,276 --> 00:14:33,756 Speaker 1: always use that as an opportunity to get people to 244 00:14:33,796 --> 00:14:39,236 Speaker 1: ask deeper questions and broader questions. So that gives me 245 00:14:39,396 --> 00:14:41,436 Speaker 1: I have a deeper question to ask you, and it's 246 00:14:41,436 --> 00:14:43,796 Speaker 1: actually it's actually something I don't think I've ever asked 247 00:14:43,796 --> 00:14:47,756 Speaker 1: you or I don't know, and that you're so smart. 248 00:14:48,156 --> 00:14:50,276 Speaker 1: You're like one of the smartest people I know. And 249 00:14:50,796 --> 00:14:54,076 Speaker 1: you could have studied black culture and identity in so 250 00:14:54,116 --> 00:14:57,316 Speaker 1: many different ways, and you chose to do it through 251 00:14:57,356 --> 00:15:00,996 Speaker 1: the movies academically as a curator in all sorts of ways. 252 00:15:01,676 --> 00:15:04,796 Speaker 1: Why why movies? Like what do you love about movies? 253 00:15:05,116 --> 00:15:07,316 Speaker 1: Was there a moment for you where you like you 254 00:15:07,356 --> 00:15:09,436 Speaker 1: fell in love with movies and this is it? Well, 255 00:15:09,436 --> 00:15:12,796 Speaker 1: there's like two reasons, I guess one. Yes, absolutely, there's 256 00:15:12,836 --> 00:15:16,476 Speaker 1: a kind of childhood connection. And the story I tell 257 00:15:17,076 --> 00:15:21,116 Speaker 1: is that I have three aunts. My mother and sisters 258 00:15:21,116 --> 00:15:24,196 Speaker 1: were twenty years older than she is, so they were 259 00:15:24,236 --> 00:15:27,196 Speaker 1: born in the nineteen twenties, and I was very close 260 00:15:27,236 --> 00:15:31,356 Speaker 1: to my aunt Constance, Zenobia Lee, my aunt Connie, my auntie, 261 00:15:31,436 --> 00:15:35,276 Speaker 1: and she was a night owl. I love that term. 262 00:15:35,316 --> 00:15:38,276 Speaker 1: So we were night owls. So my sister and my grandmother, 263 00:15:38,396 --> 00:15:40,516 Speaker 1: they go to bed after Johnny Carson went off, but 264 00:15:40,676 --> 00:15:44,076 Speaker 1: we would stay up and we would watch these movies 265 00:15:44,676 --> 00:15:47,436 Speaker 1: that she remembered going to see in the movie theaters, 266 00:15:47,516 --> 00:15:50,956 Speaker 1: movies from the thirties and forties, and she knew everything 267 00:15:50,996 --> 00:15:54,236 Speaker 1: about these old movie stars. And of course these films 268 00:15:54,276 --> 00:15:56,636 Speaker 1: had commercial breaks, so we go downstairs and get a 269 00:15:56,636 --> 00:15:58,996 Speaker 1: snack and talk about them. So it was really like 270 00:15:59,116 --> 00:16:04,276 Speaker 1: this super intimate experience of talking with someone who just 271 00:16:04,396 --> 00:16:06,796 Speaker 1: loved and supported me so much, and I adored her, 272 00:16:07,116 --> 00:16:09,676 Speaker 1: and we would just be up all night watching these movies. 273 00:16:09,996 --> 00:16:13,036 Speaker 1: So when I would get to college and people didn't 274 00:16:13,036 --> 00:16:15,676 Speaker 1: want to watch black and white movies because they're in 275 00:16:15,676 --> 00:16:20,876 Speaker 1: black and white, what is the issue there? Um? And uh, 276 00:16:21,236 --> 00:16:24,436 Speaker 1: she just made me really interested in I guess that's 277 00:16:24,476 --> 00:16:27,356 Speaker 1: another thing too. As a black woman, questions come up 278 00:16:27,356 --> 00:16:28,876 Speaker 1: all the time about how can you watch movies that 279 00:16:28,956 --> 00:16:32,436 Speaker 1: have these racist things in them? Obviously these films I mean, 280 00:16:32,516 --> 00:16:36,316 Speaker 1: like like the depictions of black women as mammy figures. 281 00:16:36,356 --> 00:16:40,756 Speaker 1: That's right, black and shoes shine if they're in the 282 00:16:40,796 --> 00:16:43,916 Speaker 1: movie at all, you know, yes, Um, where do you 283 00:16:43,956 --> 00:16:45,916 Speaker 1: find those points of pleasure in films? That are not 284 00:16:45,996 --> 00:16:50,956 Speaker 1: made for you, and in some cases are made against you. Um. 285 00:16:51,716 --> 00:16:53,436 Speaker 1: So I think at a very early age I had 286 00:16:53,436 --> 00:16:59,436 Speaker 1: a strong understanding, firsthand experience that people who have been 287 00:16:59,476 --> 00:17:04,916 Speaker 1: marginalized still find these points of pleasure, and sometimes that 288 00:17:04,956 --> 00:17:07,996 Speaker 1: pleasure is through critique, because when you would get some 289 00:17:08,156 --> 00:17:12,356 Speaker 1: you know, silly Maid or whatever. Butterfly McQueen, there's this 290 00:17:12,436 --> 00:17:16,036 Speaker 1: moment in Milder Piers Butterfly McQueen picks up the phone 291 00:17:16,036 --> 00:17:18,236 Speaker 1: and she can't figure out how to us. It's like 292 00:17:18,276 --> 00:17:24,756 Speaker 1: hello the obviously for white people. That's like a dumb 293 00:17:25,316 --> 00:17:29,716 Speaker 1: Negro made for us. He's playing on the idea that 294 00:17:29,876 --> 00:17:32,276 Speaker 1: this woman wouldn't know how to use the phone. So 295 00:17:32,636 --> 00:17:37,116 Speaker 1: it was really instructive to me to be able to 296 00:17:37,116 --> 00:17:44,756 Speaker 1: appreciate good acting, amazing cinematography, compelling stories, and to think 297 00:17:44,756 --> 00:17:47,076 Speaker 1: about through her, like how could she still love these 298 00:17:47,116 --> 00:17:49,396 Speaker 1: movies even when they have these moments that are obvious 299 00:17:49,436 --> 00:17:52,836 Speaker 1: to us really problematic, So that I didn't realize that 300 00:17:52,956 --> 00:17:55,876 Speaker 1: was working in my subconscious for such a long time. 301 00:17:56,116 --> 00:17:58,956 Speaker 1: And when I went to college, I was an English 302 00:17:58,956 --> 00:18:03,836 Speaker 1: major and Spike Lee kind of burst onto the scene 303 00:18:04,236 --> 00:18:08,556 Speaker 1: and everybody's talking about his films and I'm looking at 304 00:18:08,556 --> 00:18:10,276 Speaker 1: She's Got to Have It, I'm looking at School Days, 305 00:18:10,316 --> 00:18:13,756 Speaker 1: and I'm just amazed by these films. They're just stylistically 306 00:18:13,796 --> 00:18:17,836 Speaker 1: so interesting, and he's a voice that's so unique. But 307 00:18:17,956 --> 00:18:20,516 Speaker 1: the representations of women in his films, I was like, 308 00:18:20,556 --> 00:18:23,436 Speaker 1: what is going on here? And there was this kind of, 309 00:18:23,596 --> 00:18:28,156 Speaker 1: you know, contradiction that so many women of color have 310 00:18:28,276 --> 00:18:31,516 Speaker 1: to negotiate. How do you support one thing that is 311 00:18:31,556 --> 00:18:37,396 Speaker 1: so meaningful, potentially even progressive on a racial level, but 312 00:18:37,436 --> 00:18:42,316 Speaker 1: then raises so many problems questions when it comes to 313 00:18:42,396 --> 00:18:44,916 Speaker 1: gender and sexuality. And I end up writing my BA 314 00:18:44,956 --> 00:18:49,436 Speaker 1: thesis on Spike Lee's films, and I, you know, in 315 00:18:49,476 --> 00:18:52,836 Speaker 1: so many ways, I'm still doing that, Like you're still 316 00:18:52,876 --> 00:18:56,876 Speaker 1: doing that well. I firmly believe that we have to 317 00:18:56,916 --> 00:19:00,196 Speaker 1: see these films. I don't believe in censoring films that 318 00:19:00,236 --> 00:19:02,356 Speaker 1: have these problematic elements. I think we have to look 319 00:19:02,396 --> 00:19:04,476 Speaker 1: at them and talk through them. And that's what I've 320 00:19:04,476 --> 00:19:07,916 Speaker 1: been kind of training myself to do and hopefully educating 321 00:19:07,916 --> 00:19:11,556 Speaker 1: others on how to do as well. I love that, Jackie. 322 00:19:11,556 --> 00:19:13,356 Speaker 1: We are going to take a short break and we'll 323 00:19:13,396 --> 00:19:25,596 Speaker 1: be right back. All right, Welcome back to some of 324 00:19:25,596 --> 00:19:28,476 Speaker 1: my best friends are. We are going to talk about 325 00:19:28,516 --> 00:19:33,156 Speaker 1: the Oscars now, and this is the biggest night in Hollywood. 326 00:19:33,676 --> 00:19:36,796 Speaker 1: We want to talk a bit about how the Oscars 327 00:19:36,876 --> 00:19:41,236 Speaker 1: each year sort of shine a light on where the 328 00:19:41,316 --> 00:19:45,036 Speaker 1: country is and it's long and tortured journey towards racial 329 00:19:45,156 --> 00:19:49,636 Speaker 1: progress to racial justice, and of course of the past 330 00:19:49,676 --> 00:19:53,636 Speaker 1: several years, there's been a lot of ferment around representation 331 00:19:53,716 --> 00:19:56,636 Speaker 1: at the Oscars. So I just want to hear your 332 00:19:56,716 --> 00:20:00,236 Speaker 1: thoughts about where the Oscars are at this moment, what 333 00:20:00,356 --> 00:20:02,356 Speaker 1: it's like to be a custodian of the history of 334 00:20:02,356 --> 00:20:05,596 Speaker 1: the Oscars and in this new role. Yeah, you know, 335 00:20:05,676 --> 00:20:09,276 Speaker 1: we have an Academy Awards History gallery at the museum 336 00:20:09,276 --> 00:20:11,996 Speaker 1: and it's actually something that folks can look at online 337 00:20:12,036 --> 00:20:15,396 Speaker 1: as well, kind of scroll through and see these landmark 338 00:20:15,596 --> 00:20:20,396 Speaker 1: wins and nominations and how the categories have changed over time. 339 00:20:21,156 --> 00:20:25,116 Speaker 1: And from what I have been seeing, it's like because 340 00:20:25,116 --> 00:20:29,076 Speaker 1: of the Oscar So White Movement protests that happened, there 341 00:20:29,196 --> 00:20:32,556 Speaker 1: was a real effort on the part of Academy members 342 00:20:32,596 --> 00:20:38,716 Speaker 1: Academy leadership to craft a response, and so the development 343 00:20:38,796 --> 00:20:46,716 Speaker 1: of criteria for really pushing studios to diversify their crews 344 00:20:46,756 --> 00:20:50,676 Speaker 1: and their casts, a lot of what happens behind the 345 00:20:50,676 --> 00:20:54,476 Speaker 1: scene exactly. Yeah, yeah, I mean you know this well, 346 00:20:54,516 --> 00:21:00,396 Speaker 1: but sometimes it bears repeating that you can't resolve centuries 347 00:21:00,436 --> 00:21:04,236 Speaker 1: old problems in two or three years. You have to 348 00:21:04,316 --> 00:21:06,956 Speaker 1: create with a d d I initiative that you stand 349 00:21:07,036 --> 00:21:10,636 Speaker 1: up and just figures, let's see the results, that's right, 350 00:21:10,756 --> 00:21:13,636 Speaker 1: and just you know, put somebody in charge who seems 351 00:21:13,636 --> 00:21:16,996 Speaker 1: to visibly reflect diversity, and that solves a problem. What 352 00:21:17,116 --> 00:21:20,516 Speaker 1: you have to do is you have to build sustain 353 00:21:20,836 --> 00:21:24,876 Speaker 1: sustainable initiatives that are looking ten, twenty thirty years ahead. 354 00:21:25,556 --> 00:21:29,156 Speaker 1: And so the Academy Goal Program, I think is in 355 00:21:29,196 --> 00:21:31,996 Speaker 1: many ways planting those seeds by placing young people in 356 00:21:32,036 --> 00:21:37,996 Speaker 1: positions where they can grow and where the Academy is 357 00:21:38,036 --> 00:21:41,956 Speaker 1: calling the industry to be accountable for that growth. So 358 00:21:42,076 --> 00:21:46,036 Speaker 1: that to me is really a strong indication of things 359 00:21:46,036 --> 00:21:48,436 Speaker 1: that are happening now that we may not see like 360 00:21:48,476 --> 00:21:51,956 Speaker 1: immediate results from. But that's not what we want anyway. 361 00:21:52,116 --> 00:21:55,276 Speaker 1: I would say, it's about a much longer term set 362 00:21:55,316 --> 00:21:59,196 Speaker 1: of solutions that we need to build. So you know, 363 00:21:59,396 --> 00:22:01,836 Speaker 1: when we look across for example, the history of black 364 00:22:01,836 --> 00:22:03,956 Speaker 1: filmmaking and kind of you see these ebbs and flows 365 00:22:04,036 --> 00:22:06,276 Speaker 1: right in the nineteen seventies and lots happening. The eighties 366 00:22:06,356 --> 00:22:07,956 Speaker 1: kind of a dip, and then the nineties a lot 367 00:22:07,956 --> 00:22:10,436 Speaker 1: of black independent filmmaking and a dip and so on. 368 00:22:10,996 --> 00:22:12,916 Speaker 1: But over the past few years, if you think about 369 00:22:12,956 --> 00:22:18,116 Speaker 1: just the breadth and the ambition, and I mean that 370 00:22:18,196 --> 00:22:22,356 Speaker 1: in terms of like um production values and costs, the 371 00:22:22,396 --> 00:22:24,916 Speaker 1: fact that Ryan Coogler has the career that he has 372 00:22:25,076 --> 00:22:28,236 Speaker 1: right now and right this is the director behind the 373 00:22:28,396 --> 00:22:31,796 Speaker 1: Black Panther Marvel series that's right, Yes, and Creed and 374 00:22:31,916 --> 00:22:36,956 Speaker 1: Creed and Creed Yes, which is amazing, reboot the Rocky series. Yes, 375 00:22:37,316 --> 00:22:42,116 Speaker 1: Sasha Penn one of the writers. Yeah, looking at the 376 00:22:42,156 --> 00:22:45,236 Speaker 1: things that Aba DuVernay is doing m and she is 377 00:22:45,236 --> 00:22:48,556 Speaker 1: a governor of the of the Academy. The point I'm 378 00:22:48,596 --> 00:22:52,396 Speaker 1: trying to make is just that I think that the 379 00:22:52,556 --> 00:22:54,356 Speaker 1: key right now is to ensure that the people who 380 00:22:54,356 --> 00:22:56,996 Speaker 1: are in place and getting into higher and higher places 381 00:22:57,036 --> 00:23:01,756 Speaker 1: in the industry, their voices are really being heard in 382 00:23:01,796 --> 00:23:05,316 Speaker 1: a way that I don't think was happening before. And 383 00:23:05,356 --> 00:23:07,036 Speaker 1: I think we're just going to see the fruits of 384 00:23:07,036 --> 00:23:10,236 Speaker 1: that in the next few years. Jack, I want to 385 00:23:10,276 --> 00:23:11,956 Speaker 1: I want to pick up something that you said at 386 00:23:11,956 --> 00:23:13,836 Speaker 1: the start of that of that you actually have an 387 00:23:13,876 --> 00:23:18,236 Speaker 1: exhibit about the Academy Awards, and I'm interested in that. 388 00:23:18,276 --> 00:23:20,316 Speaker 1: I've been to that room of sort of seeing this, 389 00:23:20,356 --> 00:23:23,116 Speaker 1: and I'm curious of you thinking about your job of 390 00:23:23,236 --> 00:23:26,676 Speaker 1: preserving that history of the Academy and the actual award 391 00:23:26,756 --> 00:23:32,156 Speaker 1: show and turning that spectacle of that event into a 392 00:23:32,236 --> 00:23:35,436 Speaker 1: museum exhibit. Yes, like and like, what is it? What 393 00:23:35,636 --> 00:23:38,516 Speaker 1: is it You're you're even trying to do sort of 394 00:23:38,516 --> 00:23:41,956 Speaker 1: in this conversation around diversity and representation and Oscar still 395 00:23:41,956 --> 00:23:44,636 Speaker 1: so white and like, you know, to sort of weave 396 00:23:44,716 --> 00:23:47,276 Speaker 1: that into this this h this is It's a great question. 397 00:23:47,316 --> 00:23:49,636 Speaker 1: And Doris, who leads a curatorial team that has really 398 00:23:49,676 --> 00:23:53,836 Speaker 1: worked on the structure of that exhibition, she drew on 399 00:23:54,916 --> 00:23:57,436 Speaker 1: the things that are really the major touch points. So 400 00:23:57,676 --> 00:23:59,636 Speaker 1: when you think about the Academy Awards, you think about 401 00:23:59,636 --> 00:24:02,916 Speaker 1: the speeches. In fact, I think if we ever fantasize 402 00:24:02,956 --> 00:24:06,556 Speaker 1: about giving a speech, it's like the Academy Awards moment 403 00:24:06,716 --> 00:24:09,716 Speaker 1: is what we all kind of like. I'd like, you 404 00:24:09,716 --> 00:24:13,036 Speaker 1: know that that's the ultimate stage for giving a speech 405 00:24:13,036 --> 00:24:15,356 Speaker 1: of thanking the people you love, of getting like this 406 00:24:15,476 --> 00:24:19,956 Speaker 1: major global recognition. So the gallery has a sort of 407 00:24:19,996 --> 00:24:23,156 Speaker 1: cycling array of speeches, and we see the video of 408 00:24:23,196 --> 00:24:27,556 Speaker 1: the speeches from Hattie McDaniel in nineteen forty to Ruth 409 00:24:27,596 --> 00:24:30,796 Speaker 1: Carter winning for costume design for Black Panther, and you know, 410 00:24:30,916 --> 00:24:34,276 Speaker 1: so we keep that up to date. Two because and 411 00:24:34,476 --> 00:24:37,436 Speaker 1: I have heard this literally from people who have won, 412 00:24:37,556 --> 00:24:41,396 Speaker 1: like Hilder Gonadottier, who was the first. She won for 413 00:24:41,796 --> 00:24:44,796 Speaker 1: composing for Joker, and she said that she heard from 414 00:24:44,836 --> 00:24:49,636 Speaker 1: young women that seeing her speech inspired them to think 415 00:24:49,636 --> 00:24:51,876 Speaker 1: that they could do work for film, like from major 416 00:24:51,956 --> 00:24:54,316 Speaker 1: motion things. So it's actually really a big deal in 417 00:24:54,396 --> 00:24:56,676 Speaker 1: terms of representation of seeing somebody up there on the 418 00:24:56,676 --> 00:24:59,396 Speaker 1: Oscars night. It's not it's alive in terms of that 419 00:24:59,476 --> 00:25:02,956 Speaker 1: sort of representation. Yeah, it's that validation. Yeah. Yeah. And 420 00:25:03,276 --> 00:25:04,836 Speaker 1: just to pick up this point I was thinking as 421 00:25:04,876 --> 00:25:08,716 Speaker 1: you were describing it, it's also a can to a 422 00:25:08,756 --> 00:25:13,196 Speaker 1: political speech, not just the politics that are on view, 423 00:25:13,356 --> 00:25:17,556 Speaker 1: in terms of how culture often is the sort of 424 00:25:17,596 --> 00:25:21,276 Speaker 1: lifeblood of our politics, yes, but also in the way 425 00:25:21,276 --> 00:25:23,996 Speaker 1: that so many of these speeches are in a formal 426 00:25:24,036 --> 00:25:29,036 Speaker 1: sense political. That's right, that the occasion for acknowledging whatever 427 00:25:29,076 --> 00:25:32,436 Speaker 1: this film subject matter is, or the individual who's being 428 00:25:32,436 --> 00:25:35,996 Speaker 1: honored for it, if it is a trailblazing role or 429 00:25:36,076 --> 00:25:40,916 Speaker 1: trailblazing individual, often tells us something about the country or 430 00:25:40,916 --> 00:25:42,956 Speaker 1: where the country is in its history at that moment. 431 00:25:43,036 --> 00:25:46,876 Speaker 1: Absolutely true. Yes, I'm thinking about one of pretty recent 432 00:25:46,916 --> 00:25:49,156 Speaker 1: speech by me and Neil, who was part of the 433 00:25:49,196 --> 00:25:52,036 Speaker 1: hair and makeup team that won for Male Rainey's Black 434 00:25:52,036 --> 00:25:57,036 Speaker 1: Bottom and starry Viola Davis starrying the amazing Viola Davis. 435 00:25:57,036 --> 00:25:59,836 Speaker 1: So Mia gets up and she gave, as we have 436 00:25:59,876 --> 00:26:04,076 Speaker 1: in our gallery, this brilliant speech, tracing the history of 437 00:26:04,116 --> 00:26:07,956 Speaker 1: her parents, the sacrifices they had made for her to 438 00:26:08,036 --> 00:26:10,396 Speaker 1: be where she is, and then she says, you know 439 00:26:10,476 --> 00:26:13,316 Speaker 1: there's going to be a time when a win like this, 440 00:26:13,516 --> 00:26:16,236 Speaker 1: this was the first, you know, black person to win 441 00:26:16,276 --> 00:26:18,756 Speaker 1: this award, that this will just be normal, Like can't 442 00:26:18,796 --> 00:26:20,636 Speaker 1: we imagine a moment when this it won't be a 443 00:26:20,636 --> 00:26:24,196 Speaker 1: big deal, That this is a first and our gallery 444 00:26:24,236 --> 00:26:29,196 Speaker 1: is so full of these firsts. And the goal is, though, 445 00:26:29,236 --> 00:26:31,676 Speaker 1: as she puts it so beautifully, to get to a 446 00:26:31,676 --> 00:26:34,876 Speaker 1: place where this is not the anomaly. So the symbolic 447 00:26:34,956 --> 00:26:38,396 Speaker 1: meaning even for the voters and for the public to 448 00:26:38,636 --> 00:26:42,396 Speaker 1: recognize talent in all of his forms and to then 449 00:26:42,436 --> 00:26:47,556 Speaker 1: provide more opportunities for people, you know, is deeply meaningful 450 00:26:47,676 --> 00:26:51,316 Speaker 1: and the Oscars is an incredible stage for that too. Jack, 451 00:26:51,556 --> 00:26:53,316 Speaker 1: I want to I want to ask you about another 452 00:26:53,356 --> 00:26:55,996 Speaker 1: person that's in that exhibit, Sash and Little Tether. She 453 00:26:56,076 --> 00:27:01,076 Speaker 1: rejects the award, and you've told me about this very 454 00:27:01,116 --> 00:27:07,876 Speaker 1: regretfully cannot accept this very generous award, and the reasons 455 00:27:07,956 --> 00:27:12,676 Speaker 1: for this being are the treatment of American Indians today 456 00:27:12,996 --> 00:27:21,956 Speaker 1: by the film industry. Excuse me. You know, we see 457 00:27:21,996 --> 00:27:25,316 Speaker 1: this amazing moment. There's like tumult going on in the 458 00:27:25,436 --> 00:27:27,476 Speaker 1: academy and the audience they don't know what's going on 459 00:27:27,516 --> 00:27:29,876 Speaker 1: because somebody has walked up there who's not They didn't know. 460 00:27:30,276 --> 00:27:33,156 Speaker 1: You told me that John Wayne is backstage and like 461 00:27:33,236 --> 00:27:35,556 Speaker 1: he literally has to be held back from like that 462 00:27:35,636 --> 00:27:38,356 Speaker 1: he's going to attack her story, that story. Yeah, this 463 00:27:38,476 --> 00:27:40,436 Speaker 1: is to get back to what you were saying before, Khalil, 464 00:27:40,636 --> 00:27:43,156 Speaker 1: this is understood to be the first political speech given 465 00:27:43,636 --> 00:27:47,996 Speaker 1: on the Oscar stage because she was wondering and um, 466 00:27:48,916 --> 00:27:51,196 Speaker 1: you know, so it gets to these questions of is 467 00:27:51,276 --> 00:27:56,436 Speaker 1: this a place for politics? It's already a place for politics. Yeah, yeah, 468 00:27:56,476 --> 00:27:58,276 Speaker 1: I mean, could we follow up on that really quickly? 469 00:27:58,316 --> 00:28:00,756 Speaker 1: I mean, given that it was a political speech and 470 00:28:00,956 --> 00:28:04,276 Speaker 1: for you, as the custodian of the history of the oscars, 471 00:28:04,276 --> 00:28:07,156 Speaker 1: are saying, it's really the first one acknowledges a political speech. 472 00:28:07,836 --> 00:28:12,356 Speaker 1: What exactly was the story with Marlon Brando's own winning 473 00:28:12,436 --> 00:28:14,796 Speaker 1: role for The Godfather, which of course is one of 474 00:28:14,836 --> 00:28:19,396 Speaker 1: the most iconic canonical films ever made in Hollywood? Uh? 475 00:28:19,476 --> 00:28:22,196 Speaker 1: And Sachin Little Feather like, how did how did that 476 00:28:22,436 --> 00:28:25,396 Speaker 1: actually come together in terms of him not showing up 477 00:28:25,396 --> 00:28:28,436 Speaker 1: in her being there in his place, right right? Well, 478 00:28:28,516 --> 00:28:32,476 Speaker 1: I can't not refer to our own Academy Museum podcast 479 00:28:32,636 --> 00:28:39,756 Speaker 1: episode on a Time, Okay, yes, to summarize it. Marlon 480 00:28:39,796 --> 00:28:42,636 Speaker 1: Brando and we had his daughter, Rebecca Brando here for 481 00:28:42,836 --> 00:28:45,236 Speaker 1: a program just for our own team because we wanted 482 00:28:45,276 --> 00:28:48,836 Speaker 1: to learn more about this background in history and educate ourselves. 483 00:28:49,236 --> 00:28:53,836 Speaker 1: But she talked about how passionate he was with regard 484 00:28:53,876 --> 00:28:58,596 Speaker 1: to UM, indigenous rights and Native American issues, and that 485 00:28:58,676 --> 00:29:03,436 Speaker 1: he was really undergoing a long process himself of learning 486 00:29:03,516 --> 00:29:06,356 Speaker 1: that he had a whole library of books about Native 487 00:29:06,356 --> 00:29:10,716 Speaker 1: American culture UM and his he was getting woke. He was, 488 00:29:10,796 --> 00:29:13,516 Speaker 1: he was getting woke. I mean, you know, he was. 489 00:29:14,676 --> 00:29:18,236 Speaker 1: She was really reiterating to us that he was walking 490 00:29:18,276 --> 00:29:21,436 Speaker 1: the walk as far as he could. But he also 491 00:29:21,556 --> 00:29:24,516 Speaker 1: recognized that he should not be the one to speak 492 00:29:24,636 --> 00:29:28,116 Speaker 1: on behalf of Native American issues on that stage, so 493 00:29:28,356 --> 00:29:30,236 Speaker 1: he reached out to her. So he had planned to 494 00:29:30,316 --> 00:29:31,996 Speaker 1: given the film, even though the film has nothing to 495 00:29:32,036 --> 00:29:33,916 Speaker 1: do with Native people, it was it was such a 496 00:29:33,956 --> 00:29:36,796 Speaker 1: burning issue for him at that moment, and the American 497 00:29:36,836 --> 00:29:41,556 Speaker 1: Indian Movement and the second Wounded Knee confrontation between the 498 00:29:41,556 --> 00:29:45,596 Speaker 1: federal government and Native populations was in the news and 499 00:29:45,676 --> 00:29:48,156 Speaker 1: a big deal, and and Marlon Brando's like, look, you 500 00:29:48,196 --> 00:29:50,516 Speaker 1: know this. It was his version of taking a knee 501 00:29:50,516 --> 00:29:52,836 Speaker 1: in the Colin Kaepernick sense of it. It's like, I 502 00:29:52,876 --> 00:29:55,916 Speaker 1: am not going to participate in this, this charade of 503 00:29:55,796 --> 00:30:00,036 Speaker 1: a country that has consistently done what it's done to 504 00:30:00,196 --> 00:30:02,796 Speaker 1: the Native people. Yeah, okay, I understand. I think we're 505 00:30:02,836 --> 00:30:06,876 Speaker 1: going to get you up on the stage. Who do 506 00:30:06,916 --> 00:30:08,716 Speaker 1: you want to replace? Who do you want to go 507 00:30:08,836 --> 00:30:10,836 Speaker 1: up in there? And so I'm gonna go backstage and 508 00:30:10,876 --> 00:30:12,756 Speaker 1: take care of John Wayne. That's what that's gonna be 509 00:30:12,836 --> 00:30:16,316 Speaker 1: my job. Listen, Jackie, this is yes great. I just 510 00:30:16,316 --> 00:30:17,916 Speaker 1: gonna say it really did call attention to what was 511 00:30:17,916 --> 00:30:20,116 Speaker 1: happening at Wounded Knee at a moment when the press 512 00:30:20,156 --> 00:30:22,156 Speaker 1: was not paying attention to it, and so it was 513 00:30:22,716 --> 00:30:27,676 Speaker 1: had material impact on that movement. Yeah. Well, it turns 514 00:30:27,676 --> 00:30:29,796 Speaker 1: out there's so much more going on at the movies 515 00:30:29,836 --> 00:30:32,636 Speaker 1: than than any of us ever imagined. We're gonna take 516 00:30:33,356 --> 00:30:35,716 Speaker 1: another break, and when we come back, we're going to 517 00:30:35,796 --> 00:30:39,836 Speaker 1: talk about another history making moment in Oscar's history. We'll 518 00:30:39,876 --> 00:30:53,436 Speaker 1: be right back. We are back. Some of my best 519 00:30:53,436 --> 00:30:55,756 Speaker 1: friends are with truly one of our best friends in 520 00:30:55,756 --> 00:31:01,356 Speaker 1: the world and family, Unklin Najuma Stewart, Jackie Stewart. So, Jackie, 521 00:31:02,236 --> 00:31:04,756 Speaker 1: you were at the Academy Awards last year with my 522 00:31:04,796 --> 00:31:08,396 Speaker 1: wife Dan Yelle. You guys looked amazing. You were so beautiful. 523 00:31:08,596 --> 00:31:11,276 Speaker 1: It was incredible. Nicole Kid make him up to us 524 00:31:11,276 --> 00:31:12,876 Speaker 1: and told us how good we looked. I'm just I'm 525 00:31:12,876 --> 00:31:15,636 Speaker 1: just saying, we'll listen. I just have to cut in 526 00:31:15,676 --> 00:31:17,836 Speaker 1: here for a second. So, since I'm not married to 527 00:31:17,876 --> 00:31:19,716 Speaker 1: either one of you, I just want a little word 528 00:31:19,836 --> 00:31:23,396 Speaker 1: picture of what you were wearing that night. How about that? Oh, 529 00:31:23,476 --> 00:31:25,716 Speaker 1: let's see. I had kind of kind of an indigo 530 00:31:25,916 --> 00:31:28,956 Speaker 1: gown that had this fabulous cape with it and it 531 00:31:29,036 --> 00:31:33,636 Speaker 1: was pretty extravagant. And Danielle had on this really beautiful, 532 00:31:33,796 --> 00:31:39,236 Speaker 1: kind of structured U pink just gorgeous, gorgeous gown that 533 00:31:39,756 --> 00:31:43,036 Speaker 1: was it asymmetrical structure, you know, like one shoulder four 534 00:31:43,036 --> 00:31:48,196 Speaker 1: feet high, not four feet But she was making a statement. 535 00:31:48,276 --> 00:31:51,116 Speaker 1: She makes a statement in anything, but yes, that nice. 536 00:31:51,356 --> 00:31:54,276 Speaker 1: She was pretty really really on point. All right, all right, 537 00:31:54,836 --> 00:31:58,116 Speaker 1: all right, Jackie. So you guys are sitting in the audience, okay, yes, 538 00:31:58,436 --> 00:32:02,076 Speaker 1: and listen. You know it happens. Will Smith just in 539 00:32:02,116 --> 00:32:05,396 Speaker 1: the middle of the ceremony walks up on stage and 540 00:32:05,436 --> 00:32:08,116 Speaker 1: slaps the mess out of Chris Rock. We all saw 541 00:32:08,236 --> 00:32:10,636 Speaker 1: it was crazy because time to process that we're watching 542 00:32:10,636 --> 00:32:12,796 Speaker 1: on TV. We can look up things on the internet. 543 00:32:13,196 --> 00:32:15,396 Speaker 1: What was it like just being there? Like, what were 544 00:32:15,436 --> 00:32:18,916 Speaker 1: your immediate reactions? So it seemed like a joke. You know, 545 00:32:18,956 --> 00:32:21,996 Speaker 1: it was so loud, maybe because of where you could 546 00:32:22,036 --> 00:32:24,316 Speaker 1: actually hear it. You could you could hear the Yeah, 547 00:32:24,316 --> 00:32:25,956 Speaker 1: it was so loud that I thought that was like 548 00:32:25,996 --> 00:32:29,196 Speaker 1: a sound effect. But then it became clear that it 549 00:32:29,276 --> 00:32:31,476 Speaker 1: was something that really happened. It was jarring. I would 550 00:32:31,476 --> 00:32:35,196 Speaker 1: say it was jarring to everybody in the room. Listen. 551 00:32:35,276 --> 00:32:38,316 Speaker 1: I just I used to run a museum, the Schoenberg Center, 552 00:32:38,476 --> 00:32:42,996 Speaker 1: as you well know. So if I were the curator 553 00:32:43,716 --> 00:32:46,876 Speaker 1: of the film department at Schomberg, and certainly as director Schoenberg, 554 00:32:46,956 --> 00:32:49,676 Speaker 1: we would be having a meeting saying, how does this 555 00:32:49,996 --> 00:32:54,756 Speaker 1: come into our archives? It is it? Just? You know, 556 00:32:54,796 --> 00:32:58,556 Speaker 1: obviously the filming of the oscars itself is already going 557 00:32:58,636 --> 00:33:03,236 Speaker 1: to be collected and preserve, that's obvious. But do you 558 00:33:03,476 --> 00:33:06,716 Speaker 1: track the news cycle in order to be able to 559 00:33:06,756 --> 00:33:09,636 Speaker 1: help or research or make sense of this, Because when 560 00:33:09,636 --> 00:33:13,036 Speaker 1: we are caretakers of institutions like this, we have to 561 00:33:13,076 --> 00:33:16,716 Speaker 1: think for people who will never even know this happened 562 00:33:16,916 --> 00:33:20,516 Speaker 1: a hundred years from now, um, and for whatever reason, 563 00:33:20,556 --> 00:33:24,116 Speaker 1: a researcher may actually want to know the backstory. How 564 00:33:24,156 --> 00:33:26,956 Speaker 1: do you think today and how are you curators thinking 565 00:33:26,996 --> 00:33:30,196 Speaker 1: today about how to make meaning of it for the future, 566 00:33:30,236 --> 00:33:32,236 Speaker 1: because that's what that's what our jobs are in these 567 00:33:32,276 --> 00:33:37,436 Speaker 1: in these curatorial archival roles. No, that's right, I mean 568 00:33:37,476 --> 00:33:38,916 Speaker 1: that was one of the very first things I was 569 00:33:38,956 --> 00:33:43,076 Speaker 1: thinking of, sitting in that balcony was because we were all, 570 00:33:43,196 --> 00:33:46,196 Speaker 1: I'm there, the team is watching also, and we're thinking 571 00:33:46,236 --> 00:33:51,356 Speaker 1: about what that panel for twenty two Oscars that we're 572 00:33:51,356 --> 00:33:53,636 Speaker 1: going to put in the gallery, like, you know, we're 573 00:33:53,636 --> 00:33:56,836 Speaker 1: hoping within a month of the show. Yeah, what are 574 00:33:56,916 --> 00:34:00,396 Speaker 1: the significant moments that we're going to highlight there? It's 575 00:34:00,436 --> 00:34:03,636 Speaker 1: a pretty significant moment. What we did was not track 576 00:34:03,716 --> 00:34:07,196 Speaker 1: the news cycle, but we were waiting for the Academy's 577 00:34:07,276 --> 00:34:09,996 Speaker 1: response because there was a period of time in which 578 00:34:10,036 --> 00:34:11,756 Speaker 1: the governors were meeting and there was a lot of 579 00:34:11,796 --> 00:34:15,556 Speaker 1: conversation among the membership about are there going to be consequences? 580 00:34:15,596 --> 00:34:18,396 Speaker 1: If so, what are those consequences going to be? And 581 00:34:18,436 --> 00:34:20,556 Speaker 1: that's what we ended up writing up in our you know, 582 00:34:20,636 --> 00:34:23,516 Speaker 1: we talk about all the other amazing things that happened 583 00:34:23,516 --> 00:34:26,476 Speaker 1: that night, like Ariana Debout was becoming the first Afro 584 00:34:26,556 --> 00:34:30,476 Speaker 1: Latina to win an Academy award, and Troy Coster being 585 00:34:30,476 --> 00:34:32,716 Speaker 1: the first deaf actor to win an award. There were 586 00:34:32,756 --> 00:34:36,396 Speaker 1: so many other things that were significant, and the model 587 00:34:36,516 --> 00:34:38,796 Speaker 1: for our gallery is, you know, it's a list a 588 00:34:38,876 --> 00:34:41,756 Speaker 1: variety of things to try to give a sense of 589 00:34:41,796 --> 00:34:47,556 Speaker 1: what the important moments are, but also things that signal 590 00:34:47,596 --> 00:34:51,796 Speaker 1: cultural shifts or shifts in um sort of Academy approaches 591 00:34:51,836 --> 00:34:54,596 Speaker 1: to awards and so on. But we had to write 592 00:34:54,676 --> 00:34:58,356 Speaker 1: up this, this thing happened, this is how the Academy responded. 593 00:34:58,516 --> 00:35:02,956 Speaker 1: So that's one place where we're where we're documenting this 594 00:35:03,076 --> 00:35:05,996 Speaker 1: but also putting in that's the sort that's the shortest, 595 00:35:05,996 --> 00:35:10,236 Speaker 1: most immediate response and like you know, longer museum making, 596 00:35:10,276 --> 00:35:12,596 Speaker 1: like is this something that will go into an exhibit 597 00:35:12,596 --> 00:35:15,556 Speaker 1: to imagine that happening for sure? You know, we this 598 00:35:15,596 --> 00:35:18,676 Speaker 1: is the ninety fifth Oscars, so already we're thinking about 599 00:35:18,796 --> 00:35:21,156 Speaker 1: the one hundredth. We have five years to think about 600 00:35:21,156 --> 00:35:26,596 Speaker 1: ways that we're gonna narrate here the full century arc 601 00:35:26,676 --> 00:35:31,276 Speaker 1: of the Academy and this, you know, this ceremony and 602 00:35:31,356 --> 00:35:37,356 Speaker 1: this kind of industry self recognition that is the Academy Awards. 603 00:35:37,956 --> 00:35:40,876 Speaker 1: And you know, this is definitely something it's not just 604 00:35:40,916 --> 00:35:44,276 Speaker 1: a matter of like highlights lowlights. It's not that it 605 00:35:44,316 --> 00:35:48,076 Speaker 1: has to do with the way that our understanding of 606 00:35:48,236 --> 00:35:51,676 Speaker 1: stardom has evolved over time. It has to do also 607 00:35:51,756 --> 00:35:54,036 Speaker 1: with the way that we're going to think about the 608 00:35:54,116 --> 00:35:56,796 Speaker 1: racial politics of the Oscars. I mean, this is obviously 609 00:35:56,796 --> 00:36:00,676 Speaker 1: one of the things that was so jarring for me 610 00:36:00,796 --> 00:36:02,756 Speaker 1: and I think for a lot of other black folks watching. 611 00:36:02,756 --> 00:36:05,956 Speaker 1: It's like, this is a story about two black men 612 00:36:06,236 --> 00:36:10,836 Speaker 1: happening on this international stage, right, And then to think 613 00:36:10,836 --> 00:36:13,596 Speaker 1: too about what I think all institutions need to think about, 614 00:36:13,676 --> 00:36:19,476 Speaker 1: just like codes of conduct and expectations around behavior and um, 615 00:36:20,116 --> 00:36:22,036 Speaker 1: and what are the kinds of ways that we want 616 00:36:22,076 --> 00:36:25,836 Speaker 1: to create cultures where people feel safe and welcome it. Like, 617 00:36:25,996 --> 00:36:28,796 Speaker 1: there's so many things we need to figure out overall 618 00:36:28,836 --> 00:36:32,956 Speaker 1: among those lines that that became a signal moment for Yeah, yeah, yeah, 619 00:36:32,996 --> 00:36:35,556 Speaker 1: I mean I imagine there'll be some art or something 620 00:36:35,636 --> 00:36:37,476 Speaker 1: made of it too. I mean it was so such 621 00:36:37,476 --> 00:36:39,356 Speaker 1: a roor shock of what you said of like how 622 00:36:39,436 --> 00:36:42,796 Speaker 1: we conceive of race and gender politics and our culture. 623 00:36:42,796 --> 00:36:45,996 Speaker 1: Like it was so loaded in very uncomfortable ways, but 624 00:36:46,036 --> 00:36:48,996 Speaker 1: then also in ways that we can unpack. And you know, 625 00:36:49,036 --> 00:36:51,636 Speaker 1: for for the actor, the star Will Smith, who is 626 00:36:51,676 --> 00:36:53,396 Speaker 1: at the center of it and sort of you know, 627 00:36:53,476 --> 00:36:57,476 Speaker 1: broke protocol in all these ways. Um. He then it's crazy. 628 00:36:57,516 --> 00:36:59,596 Speaker 1: He goes on to win the Oscar of course moments later, 629 00:36:59,636 --> 00:37:03,516 Speaker 1: and that's to get a speech. It's just wild and 630 00:37:03,596 --> 00:37:05,916 Speaker 1: he's been sort of I mean he's not. He's been 631 00:37:06,436 --> 00:37:09,556 Speaker 1: banned I think from the Oscars for a long decision 632 00:37:09,636 --> 00:37:11,996 Speaker 1: was that for ten years he would not participate in 633 00:37:12,036 --> 00:37:15,756 Speaker 1: any Academy activities. But that doesn't mean that he couldn't 634 00:37:15,756 --> 00:37:19,076 Speaker 1: be nominated. I mean, his his colleagues may feel that 635 00:37:19,116 --> 00:37:22,516 Speaker 1: he turns in a performance that is, you know, worthy 636 00:37:22,516 --> 00:37:26,156 Speaker 1: of nomination. I'm glad you. I'm glad you corrected that. 637 00:37:26,156 --> 00:37:30,356 Speaker 1: I wasn't sure about that. Khalil actually recently met up 638 00:37:30,396 --> 00:37:32,676 Speaker 1: with him because Kalil was on the Red Table, the 639 00:37:32,796 --> 00:37:36,316 Speaker 1: show that Will Smith and his family put together, because 640 00:37:36,316 --> 00:37:39,876 Speaker 1: Will Smith had this new movie and and he invited 641 00:37:39,956 --> 00:37:42,876 Speaker 1: Khalil out to talk about the history. Khalil, did it 642 00:37:42,956 --> 00:37:45,916 Speaker 1: feel like a kind of miaculpla tour? Did it feel 643 00:37:45,916 --> 00:37:49,156 Speaker 1: like he was still responding to that moment? Oh? Absolutely, 644 00:37:49,196 --> 00:37:51,636 Speaker 1: I mean there's no question. This film that Will Smith 645 00:37:51,676 --> 00:37:55,316 Speaker 1: makes is called Emancipation. It's set in the Civil War 646 00:37:55,396 --> 00:37:59,356 Speaker 1: context about a man who escapes from slavery and joins 647 00:37:59,396 --> 00:38:01,916 Speaker 1: the Union army and fights for freedom. It's a really 648 00:38:01,996 --> 00:38:05,436 Speaker 1: important moment because this man becomes the most photographed formerly 649 00:38:05,476 --> 00:38:10,116 Speaker 1: enslaved person and helps just to win the tide for 650 00:38:10,236 --> 00:38:13,316 Speaker 1: the Union in terms of the war itself. And I 651 00:38:13,396 --> 00:38:17,636 Speaker 1: have to say for me personally, being invited onto the 652 00:38:17,756 --> 00:38:20,116 Speaker 1: Red Table to have this conversation, which was mostly about 653 00:38:20,156 --> 00:38:24,156 Speaker 1: my expertise as a historian, did create a choice, right. 654 00:38:24,516 --> 00:38:27,356 Speaker 1: It created a moment where not unlike you as a 655 00:38:27,396 --> 00:38:31,996 Speaker 1: caretaker of this institution, your institutional im premature matters in 656 00:38:32,036 --> 00:38:37,516 Speaker 1: a moment of controversy, my personal credibility in choosing to 657 00:38:37,596 --> 00:38:41,316 Speaker 1: be in his space to essentially to help in a 658 00:38:41,436 --> 00:38:45,236 Speaker 1: kind of diplomatic way, say, you know, it's okay to 659 00:38:45,276 --> 00:38:50,676 Speaker 1: watch this guy's film like it's complicated, but you know 660 00:38:51,116 --> 00:38:53,516 Speaker 1: not that this has deadly squad to do with the oscars, 661 00:38:53,836 --> 00:38:56,556 Speaker 1: but it does have to do with the choices we 662 00:38:56,596 --> 00:38:58,676 Speaker 1: all make, right, And the choice I made at that 663 00:38:58,716 --> 00:39:02,516 Speaker 1: point was that it was okay to let this film 664 00:39:02,556 --> 00:39:06,716 Speaker 1: breathe and to essentially welcome Will back to the public 665 00:39:07,436 --> 00:39:11,516 Speaker 1: space for whatever it's worth. Well, but it was also 666 00:39:11,556 --> 00:39:14,916 Speaker 1: an opportunity for you to share your expertise, right, Like 667 00:39:15,036 --> 00:39:19,236 Speaker 1: there are certain there are these moments when it's not 668 00:39:19,396 --> 00:39:23,036 Speaker 1: only a personal decision you're making or a career decision 669 00:39:23,076 --> 00:39:25,116 Speaker 1: that you're making, although people may try to cast it 670 00:39:25,156 --> 00:39:26,556 Speaker 1: that way at the moment how could you do that? 671 00:39:27,796 --> 00:39:33,436 Speaker 1: Do that? But it's also we have to make these 672 00:39:33,556 --> 00:39:36,596 Speaker 1: kind of measured decisions about I try to look at 673 00:39:36,596 --> 00:39:39,876 Speaker 1: the bigger picture, like what is the bigger the bigger picture, right, 674 00:39:40,276 --> 00:39:42,476 Speaker 1: I'm sure I had many colleagues who are like, why 675 00:39:42,476 --> 00:39:47,276 Speaker 1: are you academy because people have such like polarizing associations 676 00:39:47,276 --> 00:39:49,836 Speaker 1: with the academy. I really looked at the bigger picture. 677 00:39:49,836 --> 00:39:53,156 Speaker 1: If this is an opportunity to share my expertise, not 678 00:39:53,236 --> 00:39:55,596 Speaker 1: just like in terms of public interaction, but with a 679 00:39:55,636 --> 00:39:58,756 Speaker 1: whole group of professionals who are going to be creating 680 00:39:58,796 --> 00:40:02,916 Speaker 1: these moments of film, exhibition and history writing. I just 681 00:40:02,916 --> 00:40:06,396 Speaker 1: couldn't pass up the opportunity to do that. And you know, yeah, 682 00:40:06,516 --> 00:40:08,636 Speaker 1: you mean you mean just in this job that you're 683 00:40:08,636 --> 00:40:13,156 Speaker 1: in now, that's right, that's right. So the media cycle 684 00:40:13,276 --> 00:40:18,236 Speaker 1: of crazy things that happened just never never ends. And 685 00:40:18,276 --> 00:40:21,356 Speaker 1: I feel that we need to have people who are 686 00:40:22,276 --> 00:40:24,516 Speaker 1: and I hope that I am like an ethical person, 687 00:40:24,676 --> 00:40:29,516 Speaker 1: a reasonable person, a smart person, just in the rooms 688 00:40:29,596 --> 00:40:33,556 Speaker 1: when conversations and decisions are being made about what these 689 00:40:33,556 --> 00:40:36,516 Speaker 1: things mean, what they can mean in the future. And 690 00:40:36,556 --> 00:40:39,116 Speaker 1: that means you know that you sometimes interact with people 691 00:40:39,196 --> 00:40:44,516 Speaker 1: that you wouldn't have interacted with by choice before. But 692 00:40:45,436 --> 00:40:47,716 Speaker 1: but it's essential if we're going to move any of 693 00:40:47,756 --> 00:40:51,036 Speaker 1: this stuff forward. Yeah, well, for what is worth. Will 694 00:40:51,556 --> 00:40:53,436 Speaker 1: is a nice guy and so we're his kids, So 695 00:40:54,036 --> 00:40:56,996 Speaker 1: for what it's worth. And you also get to interact 696 00:40:57,036 --> 00:40:59,676 Speaker 1: with people that you admire and that you've sort of 697 00:40:59,716 --> 00:41:02,276 Speaker 1: seen from afar and you know this is that must 698 00:41:02,276 --> 00:41:06,156 Speaker 1: also be amazing incredible, It really is. Yeah, No, it's true. 699 00:41:06,196 --> 00:41:08,356 Speaker 1: We have so many amazing supporters and there are also 700 00:41:08,436 --> 00:41:12,716 Speaker 1: so many just incredible black movie professionals who have welcomed 701 00:41:12,716 --> 00:41:16,836 Speaker 1: me with open arms to the museum and offered their support. Um, 702 00:41:16,876 --> 00:41:22,036 Speaker 1: it's been deeply meaningful. Yeah, well that's beautiful. Thank you, 703 00:41:22,436 --> 00:41:24,556 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you. Keep on doing the 704 00:41:24,556 --> 00:41:28,276 Speaker 1: great work. Uh. You know, we are your your biggest fans. 705 00:41:28,716 --> 00:41:31,196 Speaker 1: I'm so proud of the two of you and this 706 00:41:31,356 --> 00:41:34,756 Speaker 1: space that you've created for you know, these conversations. It 707 00:41:34,796 --> 00:41:37,636 Speaker 1: means a lot to me to be your first repeat guest. 708 00:41:38,356 --> 00:41:43,996 Speaker 1: And yeah, Oscar for best Museum President, everyd goes to 709 00:41:44,956 --> 00:41:47,716 Speaker 1: Jackie Stewart. Thank you so much, Jackie for going on 710 00:41:47,916 --> 00:41:50,756 Speaker 1: you love you both, love you too, love you too. 711 00:42:03,636 --> 00:42:07,996 Speaker 1: So Khalil at the Academy Museum. One of the exhibits 712 00:42:08,036 --> 00:42:11,316 Speaker 1: they have is you go into a booth and there's 713 00:42:11,356 --> 00:42:14,556 Speaker 1: a screen that films you as you accept the oscar, 714 00:42:15,196 --> 00:42:18,476 Speaker 1: actually hold up an oscar and you know, you give. 715 00:42:18,796 --> 00:42:21,276 Speaker 1: It doesn't actually record your words, but you know you 716 00:42:21,276 --> 00:42:23,356 Speaker 1: you say them and you put up your hands. It's 717 00:42:23,396 --> 00:42:25,876 Speaker 1: really awesome. I mean, you you you imagine what you 718 00:42:25,876 --> 00:42:28,236 Speaker 1: would say in that moment, and what's the film that 719 00:42:28,276 --> 00:42:30,676 Speaker 1: you imagined having made when you did that while you 720 00:42:30,716 --> 00:42:33,276 Speaker 1: were there? Come on, it's a screen adaptation. As some 721 00:42:33,276 --> 00:42:37,116 Speaker 1: of my best friends are, Oh, of course, what was 722 00:42:37,196 --> 00:42:40,676 Speaker 1: I thinking? Because I well, I was I got writer 723 00:42:41,396 --> 00:42:44,356 Speaker 1: actor for playing both roles, you know, like I did 724 00:42:44,396 --> 00:42:46,796 Speaker 1: like the face off thing where I had to play 725 00:42:46,836 --> 00:42:52,156 Speaker 1: both of us. Yeah, and it was like soul man too, 726 00:42:52,636 --> 00:42:56,076 Speaker 1: You're silly, You're silly. You know. One of the things 727 00:42:56,116 --> 00:42:58,596 Speaker 1: that just jumped out at me in this conversation was 728 00:42:58,636 --> 00:43:01,556 Speaker 1: that moment of John Wayne backstage and I the moment 729 00:43:01,596 --> 00:43:05,036 Speaker 1: you told that story and about Sashen Little Feather and 730 00:43:05,116 --> 00:43:08,916 Speaker 1: John Wayne wanting to literally come out and attack her. 731 00:43:09,876 --> 00:43:12,436 Speaker 1: It really was like, it's like him imagining you know, 732 00:43:12,476 --> 00:43:16,116 Speaker 1: he's this Western star and really imagining this like cowboys 733 00:43:16,156 --> 00:43:20,556 Speaker 1: and Indians fight in of American history. It turns out, 734 00:43:20,756 --> 00:43:22,356 Speaker 1: I think you know this, that there's even more to 735 00:43:22,436 --> 00:43:27,396 Speaker 1: Sashin Little Feathers story that upon her deaths her sister 736 00:43:27,476 --> 00:43:29,596 Speaker 1: came out and said that she was not Native, that 737 00:43:29,676 --> 00:43:33,156 Speaker 1: sash Little Feather was not Native, even though sort of 738 00:43:33,156 --> 00:43:37,516 Speaker 1: her activism throughout her life was on behalf of Native people. Wow, 739 00:43:37,636 --> 00:43:41,276 Speaker 1: it's like Rachel dolasal man Or or or or going 740 00:43:41,476 --> 00:43:43,676 Speaker 1: or going back to soul Man again, back out back 741 00:43:43,676 --> 00:43:47,116 Speaker 1: where it's all it's all circular, kid, It's all what 742 00:43:47,196 --> 00:43:50,956 Speaker 1: a crazy revent you we live in? All right? I'll 743 00:43:50,996 --> 00:43:53,556 Speaker 1: see you in the movies. I'll see you there, Love you, 744 00:43:53,796 --> 00:44:01,756 Speaker 1: Love you. Some of My Best Friends Are is a 745 00:44:01,836 --> 00:44:05,596 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted 746 00:44:05,596 --> 00:44:09,036 Speaker 1: by me Khalil Jibron Muhammad and my best friend Ben Austin. 747 00:44:09,236 --> 00:44:12,716 Speaker 1: This show is produced by Lucy Sullivan. It's edited by 748 00:44:12,796 --> 00:44:16,636 Speaker 1: Sarah Knicks with help from Keishell Williams. Our engineer is 749 00:44:16,676 --> 00:44:23,156 Speaker 1: Amanda Kawan, and our managing producer is Constanza Gallardo. At Pushkin. 750 00:44:23,356 --> 00:44:28,276 Speaker 1: Thanks to Leita Mulad, Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, 751 00:44:28,716 --> 00:44:33,516 Speaker 1: John Schnars, Gretta Kone, and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, 752 00:44:33,916 --> 00:44:37,956 Speaker 1: Little Lily, is by fellow Chicagoan the Brilliant Avery R. Young, 753 00:44:38,276 --> 00:44:41,116 Speaker 1: from his album Tubman. You definitely want to check out 754 00:44:41,156 --> 00:44:44,516 Speaker 1: his music at his website Avery R. Young dot com. 755 00:44:44,596 --> 00:44:48,196 Speaker 1: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin Pods, 756 00:44:48,516 --> 00:44:51,116 Speaker 1: and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin 757 00:44:51,236 --> 00:44:54,996 Speaker 1: dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the 758 00:44:55,116 --> 00:44:59,116 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. 759 00:44:59,156 --> 00:45:01,556 Speaker 1: And if you like our show, please give us a 760 00:45:01,556 --> 00:45:04,156 Speaker 1: five star rating and a review and listen even if 761 00:45:04,196 --> 00:45:05,836 Speaker 1: you don't like it, give it a five star rating 762 00:45:05,836 --> 00:45:08,716 Speaker 1: and a review, and please tell all of your best 763 00:45:08,756 --> 00:45:20,916 Speaker 1: friends about Thank you.